Praise the Lord and Call the Tow Truck
Posted on December 15th, 2004 by catalyst into the Uncategorized categoryI was perusing the new conference hosted by City Business called NW Breakthrough. And apparently, the church is holding two, back-back conferences during the second week of March with several outside speakers leading the event.
(Interesting side note, the website address for the conference ends in a dot-com and not a dot-org, like the church itself.)
Now we’ve discussed this before, but there seems to be a lot of money to be made with these conferences. The website says there is a $75 registration fee. So, if there are two conferences, the auditorium holds roughly 3,000 people… well, let’s see you take 75 multiply that by 6,000 (# of people attending both conferences) and you get… …carry the one… …you get… Oh my God, you get $450,000! That’s almost HALF A MILLION dollars in one week. Where is all that money going? I mean, I’m sure the speakers are great. But no way seven speakers are taking all that money. Really, what are they gonna do with the money, buy another Laser Beam?
But here’s the best part. Not only are they going to take in a ton of money in profit, but they are also charging for parking. That’s right, you have to pay $20 to park at the church. And its not like MAX goes up there. So, you’re not gonna have a choice but to pay.
I guarantee its only a couple of years before they’re selling “Jesus Tithes” t-shirts out in the parking lot.
I guess my question is, when Jesus got mad in the Temple and over turned the money tables… …ummm, well, why do you think he got mad?
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December 15th, 2004 at 8:04 pm
You can’t possible be comparing City Business with the Lord’s Temple. What could Jesus possible get upset with or turn over. Its not like we have a gift shop open for Sunday worship or have espresso machines at each entrance. And the 3 plasma TV screens don’t ever advertise the pastor’s new books or tell you to try the new pumpkin flavor latte. And the church would never sell t-shirts at an event where they are trying to help people. Next you will try to tell me that kids are going to be wearing Eternity shirts and Gen Unleashed sweatshirts.
Catalyst you have just gone to far.
Also on a side note your house of worship hasn’t sent in their CCLI check this month so we will be coming in to confiscate your worship lyrics.
December 15th, 2004 at 11:36 pm
the pastors and city B Had to up the admission prices to 75$ because there losing customers due to a larger pot bellied fellow picketing outside there business with anti abortion signs.
December 16th, 2004 at 12:36 am
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December 16th, 2004 at 1:23 am
Hey,
Wheres the scripture of the week?
December 16th, 2004 at 4:11 am
Reformed Pope et. al.:
My compliments on your blog and your ongoing practice of questioning authority. The modern business of salvation seems just that-a business, nothing more and certainly nothing divine-and you shine a just and justly irreverent light upon activties that just don’t smell all that holy.
I can’t recall the passage in Scripture, but there are words somewhere which charge that as the teacher teaches the flock, the flock is charged to clearly pay attention to what they are being told and given responsibility to correct the teacher if the teacher goes astray.
So you keep doing it. Too much teaching these days is swallowed whole, thoughtlessly, without critique.
FWIW, I’m linking to your blog. I read it regularly.
December 16th, 2004 at 6:29 am
Mr. Klein: Thanks for the link. And I’m look for that scripture, because you’re absolutely right about holding teachers responsible. Also, it would be perfect to blog about.
December 16th, 2004 at 6:41 am
virGenmary and nontither:
I just invited a couple other bloggers to the site, so I kind of want to wait and allow them to post their stories, before we add more contributors. But I do envision this site being a community blog, where people can post many different points of view. So, I’d love to have you contribute. Email me at citybusiness@gmail.com, and I’ll get back to you in a week or so. And thanks for your comments, they’re hilarious.
December 17th, 2004 at 1:50 pm
You actually do have a choice. There is plenty of free parking with a free shuttle that runs continually from Gateway transit to the church. Maybe you should check your facts before you post incorrect information.
December 17th, 2004 at 2:02 pm
Why do they charge for parking at all? It seems greedy.
October 28th, 2005 at 4:19 pm
I’ve just found your blog about espresso machines whilst I was looking for more information to add to my blog about espresso machines. You’ve got a great blog going here. It’s always good to have more information about espresso machines. I’ve just started my own blog about espresso machines if you would like to take a look.
Keep up the good work.
March 6th, 2006 at 7:05 am
[…] A year ago, I blogged about the Northwest Breakthrough Conference. Specifically, I questioned City Bible’s decision to charge attendees $20 to park, since there was not really any other way to get to the church. And thus, the church was basically adding a $20 fee to attend the conference. […]
March 13th, 2006 at 3:26 pm
Hi, I just found your website. I just started attending CBC, and I gotta say, I really love it there. I enjoy Pastor Frank as a teacher and a leader. I enjoy his humilty and his heart for people and for God. Just a side note on this blog. I’d been going to the West campus for a few months, and they were talking about how they were really gearing the conference towards the actual church body, and not so much to outsiders. The church member price is $10, not $75, so your calculations are way off. CBC is far from a perfect church, but I know it’s where I am called, and that is what is important. To follow God the best you know how. I did however laugh at this blog, you are a funny satirical man, and I enjoy that.
March 14th, 2006 at 6:53 am
CBCMember,
I’m glad you like the blog and glad you like your church. It seems some people are able to find the “good pockets” of CBC and that’s great, unfortunatly for Justin and I we must have hung out with the wrong crowd at CBC because we didn’t see much good.
March 14th, 2006 at 8:02 am
Smokin’ in the boys room, eh, RP? ;^)
Please indulge me while I think aloud some …
When others find a ‘happy home’ in a church that battered and bruised me, it’s hard for me to understand - I ask myself questions like “can’t they see” this or that … some who remain are my family members, and because of what has happened, those who remain won’t even talk to me about what I hold most important: my relationship with the Father in the Messiah. How can it be they are so blind - or so I say to myself …
But I think perhaps there’s a reasonable explanation for it … we are called to take up our cross, and put our flesh to death, to put off our old selves (carnal) and be conformed to Christ (spiritual) … some are numb to the process dying, or they just haven’t experienced the nails and blows that hurt yetm, or they’ve found a way to avoid it … but for the person who has devoted time and effort, and invested their heart and soul in a works-based (carnal / fleshly) church, and has taken some serious blows, perhaps they begin to understand that God has allowed the things of the flesh to continue in this world, for the purpose of dealing with our flesh - of putting our flesh to death … and once we have come to see the futility of the works of the flesh, and turn to the spirit, we have no need or desire to submit to the things of the flesh any more - to “vain works”, etc.
Vain works are designed (I think) to frustrate and crucify the flesh - to show the utter futility of the flesh (’the flesh counts for nothing’ John 6:63) … to divide us spirit from flesh - to draw us out of the world where carnal / fleshly vain works abound - and to that place that is “outside the camp” (Hebrews 13:13-14) where HE is. ‘The camp’, as far as I am concerned, is of the religious institution, where men follow men, and consensus, conformity, and fear reign. ‘Outside the camp’, is where dead flesh is tossed - because it stinks - and because that’s where the spirit reigns. (2 Corinthians 2:14-17)
And so, perhaps the person who has found a happy home in a place that we found to be our cross - simply hasn’t experienced (or felt) the blows and nails yet. Or, hasn’t allowed themselves to feel them yet. Or has found a niche, that for now avoids the cross.
People do bludgeon one another in a works-based church though - in the furious competition to do vain works.
These are just some random thoughts, on a quiet Tuesday morning in Cornville …
March 14th, 2006 at 9:25 am
J444,
I see what you are saying, but I think there may be another side to it. At a large church like City Bible there are many different groups, programs, and people. I’ve had a lot of people say that they don’t care what happens on Sunday morning because to them church is what happens during the week.
Whether it’s teaching a class at PBC or getting involved in a prayer group or involved in some other outreach, some find Christ in other area’s of church. That’s what I think is great.
If you can go to a church and not care what the head pastor preaches because you are involved in something greater than “his teachings” fantastic. I, however, could not stand hearing the abuse of the Bible from the pulpit…
No church is going to be all bad. I have friends who still go to CBC and I always try to remember how I felt while I was there. I remember thinking that CBC was a “good church” that just didn’t fit me. Now I know why. If you don’t know the real Gospel then you don’t really know what you are missing. Hopefully it won’t take them getting “hurt” to find that out.
It’s also funny that you would go to the “smoking in the boys room” comment, because I was actually referring to the leadership that I hung around…I think I saw CBC’s worst side. Funny, but sad.
March 14th, 2006 at 10:25 am
Yeah man, that’s so hard. Their oasis is my cross …
I grew up in the ‘burbs southeast of Seattle - then at 44, two years after marrying my soul-mate whom I met on AOL, we moved back to the rural mid-west where she was when I met her. Talk about culture shock for me … from the largely liberal and progressive west coast, to the die-hard conservative and traditional mid-west.
In Kent, WA, I played guitar in 2 of the 4 W&P bands at the large church I attended (1000 members) - we did all the latest songs. Then moved to the mid-west, where ‘contemporary’ worship is about where a catholic folk mass was 40-50 years ago. If it ain’t Gaither’s, it ain’t played - oh - and the slower the better.
The absolute adherence to tradition, iron-fisted control, and the in-bred good ol’ boys network of the midwest, was all death to me - and left me crying out “all I want is you, Lord” …
I’m glad for it all - but still ache over family and friends in the place we used to attend. From our perspective, that church is divisive, rather than uniting. It’s so sad when the prerequisite to fellowship is “where do you go to church” or “what do you believe about the rapture”, etc.
‘fraid I couldn’t just ignore all the junk I found painful and focus on 1 redeeming feature of the church (the coffee and cookies after service) … ;^)
March 14th, 2006 at 10:44 am
What I don’t like is that the leadership makes themselves out to be the “voice of God”…if they tell you to do something (like fast for instance) and you don’t do it you are looked down upon. If you challenge their motives or question whether what they say is from God, they label you “rebellious” (which by the way is ‘as the sin of witchcraft’…thank you Mr. Sligar). Oh, and they think children aren’t able to discern what is from God or not (which is BS…God has spoken to me many times through my children)… CBCMember will never really be able to understand because he/she didn’t grow up in it. We were expected to be perfect mini Christian adults and not allowed the chance to learn. There was a definate lack of mercy. “Spare the rod and spoil the child” Did they even know that the word in Hebrew that ‘rod’ was used as a translation actually means something more along the lines of ‘guidance’? Not beat your child until they ‘obey’, but ‘guide’ them and teach them until they understand the right direction. I was spanked every year I attended TCS at least once. For a girl, that was pretty bad. Most spankings were because of ‘disrespect’…”shut up and obey you stupid kid”… You know, if you look for the bad in someone you will find it…and I am no exception. How about acting in love?…I Corinthians 13 talks about love is…”hoping for the best”. I wasn’t loved by them as a whole…I was labeled “rebellious” “trouble-maker” “difficult”…the future for me was one of premarital promiscuity and satan worship…who knows? had I stayed I might have gone there… Fortunately, God loves me, pursued me, and placed His mark on my life…I don’t care what they think of me now…that is not important…what IS important is what God thinks of me. They were brutal with anyone who showed signs of leadership…any strong willed person was shunned and mistreated. I think they want people to go to CBC who will blindly follow…just pay your 10% and go home…
March 14th, 2006 at 11:27 am
I’d appreciate not making generalizations about me as a person, assuming what I can and cannot understand. I actually just started going to CBC from another MFI church where I’d been ever since I’ve been a Christian. I am going there, primarily, because the church I was at before was without life. It was closer to a social club than it was to a church. Ever since I’ve been at CBC, it’s been life to me. The teaching has been a breath of fresh air. The worship has been filled with the knowledge of God’s presence. The community has been welcoming and loving to me. I couldn’t ask for much more. Are they a perfect church? Far from it, from what I’ve read. Do they deserve grace as much as anyone here. I’d say so. I cannot speak into your past or what you have experienced. I am sure it was very real for all of the people that have been hurt, just as real as my hurt was at the church I came from. But CBC has been a place of healing for me. I can only really speak of my experience. That’s really all, I suppose.
March 14th, 2006 at 11:44 am
Honeymoons are often short-lived, friend … they typically end when you cease to meat the other’s expectations of you - meaning - conformity is the key ingredient to fitting in. Cease to conform, and discover you’re the flea on the dog.
Group conformity leaves little room for the type of growth that is expressed publicly - and so transplanting believers from one growth pot to another is a natural part of God’s gardening method.
How long were you there? How long before the disillusionment set in? How long before you noticed the hurt? What was the hurt?
March 14th, 2006 at 12:01 pm
I had a good time when I was at City Bible as well. So I’m glad you enjoy it. And I don’t feel hurt by the church at all. For the most part, I enjoyed my time there. I just think they focus too much on money and personal wealth. But to be fair, I think that criticism can be applied to a lot of churches.
Thanks for the info on the membership rate. I still think they are trying to make money on the conference, but it is nice to know they don’t charge their own members.
March 14th, 2006 at 12:52 pm
CBCMember–
I have not been to CBC as an adult so I don’t really know what it is like now, but from what I hear it is pretty much the same as it was.
I was just saying that growing up in an authoritarian environment doesn’t necessarily lead the child down the right path. Children need an environment for learning that allows for mistakes. The Jews believe that children are innocent before they reach the ‘age of accountability’ (which for them is 13)…Jesus talked about being ‘born again’ and that “the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these”. Adults are given the chance at childlike innocence again…the chance to learn from their mistakes…”I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it” Luke 18:17 Christians tend to be authoritarian with their kids as well as other Christian adults (especially new Christians)…giving them no allowance for mistakes. Thomas Edison failed countless times before inventing the light bulb…and Einstein was kicked out of school as a kid because they thought he was an idiot. Instead of labeling kids (or people for that matter) as stupid or rebellious…how about being an example…or guiding them in love…KEEPING NO RECORD OF WRONGS…delighting in the truth…always hoping…etc.
Maybe, the focus shouldn’t be just totally pointing the finger at CBC…but, at the institutional church in general…at the hypocrisy and Phariseeism present in all of us. I went to a church one time that now occupies the building where CBC used to be…it’s called New Beginnings. They had pressured their members to invite as many people as they could to come to this meeting… They sang alot of songs about asking for God to bless them and they didn’t even have an alter call (which I personally believe should be present at EVERY service). It felt like I had been invited to an Amway conference or some other MLM company. They pastor even got up to give a ‘trust God’ testimony by saying that he was going to get $10,000.00 for some reason and it almost didn’t happen. I was just thinking to myself…how on earth could any of us relate to that except to illicit envy in our hearts. Why did he even have to mention the amount?
Anyway…there are, were, and have always been wonderful things about CBC and the people who go there. I think if God has led you there, he has a reason for it. Serve Him and follow Him only.
July 12th, 2007 at 8:53 pm
For those who think churches take too much money. Doesnt starting a Christian school overseas take money? or a Bible College/seminary? My dream is to teach in a Christian school overseas. And is there anything wrong with a church starting a christian school overseas? And yes prayer, fasting and support is good. But to make it practically work, money is needed. I’ll use a school as an example. Suppose a church wants to start a school.
First, lets count the building costs. If I was starting a school, I want it to have enough classrooms, rooms and facilities. And then it takes money for maintenance costs (repairs and paying people to work on it) And the first year, how is the school staff being paid? In an ideal world, I would love to teach for free. I love teaching and kids. But, realistically I would have to support myself and my family. I am not asking for a lot to live very comfortable. All we need is the basics. And multiply the staff.
And what about the students. If its a poor third world country, many students cannot afford a good school. And I would feel bad if we had to charge them money. And scholarships would be good for those who really need it. And then enrollment grows. And the school needs expansion. Again it takes money to make it practically happen.
We can complain about churches taking money. But, let me ask you - is anybody forcing you to give money? I am not perfect at giving money. And havent always given my tithe.
Money is needed for practical stuff, like building orphanages, schools and churches.
July 13th, 2007 at 8:51 am
So the end justifies the means…sounds about right coming from another CBC’er.
Let me ask you this: What is the point of starting a school in another country when God simply can not bless you?
Based on what your said there and what your church teaches, you’ve just tied the hands of God and he can’t bless you. Sorry.
July 18th, 2007 at 10:34 pm
Let me ask you this: What is the point of starting a school in another country when God simply can not bless you?
- Because the needs in that third world country is more important than my own. Impacting children ad young people is more valuable than God not blessing me. I would feel very fulfilled. And it is about going in faith. And if I fail, at least I tried. But God always blesses if you go for it.
Its not about what I can get from God or the church all the time. And there is nothing wrong with praying for more. And if I supposedly dont get ‘blessed’ or answers for my prayers right away, I’ll just live with it and go on and hey even ask God about it when I am in heaven.
I just think its well worth it to give to church. And if a church misuses the money I give them..well, I trust God to deal with them and He will. The people behind it will face God’s judgment. Thats God job not mine.
And, I am asking you please not to misunderstand me or see this as another ‘hate’ mail from a CBCer. CBC hasnt always been a walk on the clouds for me either. Yes, there were people who had the holier-than-thou attitude and made me feel that I was being talked down to because I was a new believer. And, there are people who think they self-righteously earned a special place in God’s kingdom. And, yes that pisses me off like anything. I wanted to scream and swear because it makes me mad.
At the same time, there were people who accepted me for who I was. Let me tell you, I had many serious issues with sin. I came to CBC as a new christian and was surprised that I was accepted. Other small churches have actually shunned me. One church told me that I may not even go to heaven because my sin was too great. And didnt the Bible say that no sin is ever too great for God?
I am wondering whether there were people who hurt you in CBC. The reason why I wanted to send you an email is because I sincerely just want you to be well and get a dialog going. Seriously, if I saw you in person, I would not view you as a lesser Christian. I hated that myself. I actually appreciate your honesty in this site. And okay, so you walk into CBC and see people in Nordstrom jeans, BCBG or whatever expensive stupid brand. Aren’t those people also seeking the same thing that you and I are?
And, hope everything is well.
July 19th, 2007 at 7:17 am
Sorry, I wasn’t very clear with my last post.
I personally think that starting a school is a wonderful idea. Go for it. My point was simply to say “Your church teaches that God CANNOT bless you if you do not give 10% on everything, all the time”. I don’t know that anyone actually believes that there, but Frank teaches it.
I think God can and will bless you for obeying Him, regardless of how much money you give. Of course by “bless” I simply mean: Send His Son to die for your sins, thus creating a way to heaven for us sinful beings. That’s all the blessing we need…and we already have it.
Best of luck to you.
July 19th, 2007 at 9:48 pm
Aha, I see what you mean. Thanks, I need all the prayers I can get for that. I am definitely going for it in the near future with a group. Are we square? Does that mean you won’t write a criticizing post about me or the team if we ask for money for it
just kidding. I don’t mind.
“Your church teaches that God CANNOT bless you if you do not give 10% on everything, all the time”.
Well so what? I know what my convictions, have access to the truth and where I stand.
In the past, I thought about leaving CBC for other reasons. But, I felt the Holy Spirit say, “STOP, CBC is where I am placing you to serve. Yes, CBC like any other churches have flaws, wrinkles and imperfections. But the church is still my bride that I love very much.” I started realizing that churches are also in the process of perfection and redeemption like me.
From Frank’s preachings on tithing, I didn’t feel that at all after all these years. About Pastor Frank, well he is human just like anyone else and I’m sure he also has his flaws. And there are somethings about him that I dont like or click with either. But it is not my place to harbor ill feelinfs towards him.
This is what I believe and is my interpretation, its not about the money but the heart behind it. God can bless you no matter what. But its our attitudes that matter. And attitudes cannot be separated from the physical including money. I think giving the 10% or giving money regularly reflects discipline and a giving spirit and takes the focus of yourself.
I do believe that if you give regularly, you release something in the supernatural. And, if you get blessed in the process it is nothing compared to the other.
The giving 10% all the time, well, I kinda see it this way, comparable to praying regularly. Yes, God will speak to you even if you don’t pray regularly. But if you pray regularly and disciplined in it, you grow faster spiritually and grow closer to God. Many of the good things that happened in my life occured when my prayer life was right. Its because I am more connected to God.
Personally, I think tithing regularly is like having a regular prayer life. You are connecting the financial part of your life with God with tithing. It is like keeping your hands and heart open to receive. Someone wants to give you something but if you dont have an extended open hand towards them, but instead turned away, how can you receive?
Okay, I’ll stop because I am rambling. But yea, I see your perspective. I have read other comments and they just threw me off a bit. I see where you are coming from. Sorry if this was long.
Hope everything goes well.
July 20th, 2007 at 5:08 am
Did the Holy Spirit have a lisp? Because that admonition sounds awfully similar to a certain pastor I know.
July 21st, 2007 at 5:43 am
Now THAT’S funny.
joebib
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:27 pm
Well, glad you found the humor in it, joebib.
Thats very interesting. I am not a pastor at CBC and I have no idea which pastor you are talking about. I haven’t heard this story from anyone else. But now you really got me curious. This conversation is getting more and interesting to me.
So, I have one thing in common with some CBC pastor. But that doesn’t lump me into a label or category. I’m sure pastors are people like you and me and there may be similarities because we are travelling on the same road of life.
Anyways, what can I say? That word from the HS was more on a personal level for ME. The reason was to get off the sidelines and get up and do something and leave bitterness. I tend to be a bitter person. I am NOT saying or assuming thats your case. I dont know you well or your experiences. But all of us have different experiences… some may sound similar but I’m sure we have different life experiences, backgrounds, cultures, personalities. And the HS may sound like He is saying the same thing but it probably touched another level or part of life.
I remember that time very well. I visited different types of churches. I was about to go to one that I liked. I really made up my mind. I started feeling uncomfortable and felt something wasnt right. I thought it was nothing but i couldnt forget it. And later I perceived that and made my choice. I didnt have to listen to it. For other reasons I did.
What can I say? Thats what happened to me and my experience. I am just being honest.