Man Down! Man Down!
Posted on December 17th, 2004 by catalyst into the When We Quit categoryWell foks, we took a hit today. Reformed Pope has been attacked. And I blame myself. Its my fault. I never should have sent him up there alone.
He went up to face the leadership of CBC, all by himself.
But he was fired up, he was studied up, and he was ready to go. He had his Bible. He had his beliefs. And in the past two weeks, I had noticed a change. At some point, I think he really started to believe he was Martin Luther.
All day today I awaited his call. What happened at the meeting? I needed to know. I spent the whole day staring at the phone. One o’clock became two o’clock, became 3. Still no phone call. No update.
I started to panic. I called his wife. Is he still alive? What happened? She had no answers. Finally around 4:00 I got a call.
Folks, the proud soldier that woke up today, taking on a Church that acts more like a corporation than a ministry. That proud soldier was dead. What spoke through the phone was a wounded warrior. A scared man. They had got to him. They had manipulated him.
“WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU!”, I screamed.
“They threatened me and they told me I hurt them,” he responded.
“Of course you hurt them,” I screamed back. “THE TRUTH HURTS!”
I yelled a little longer but couldn’t rekindle his fire.
Because it was his conversation, I’ll let Reformed Pope blog the details of his talk with the elders. But sufficed to say, he is having serious reservations about continuing this blog, and he may drop out.
Before I go, let me fill you in on something. Pope is my younger brother. For twenty-six years we’ve been brothers. We grew up home-schooled kids in a tough urban neighborhood. And the two of us have run away from more fights than Ghandi and Mother Theresa combined.
We’re good kids, who don’t really want to fight.
Well, I love the Pope and today I’m picking up his sword. And I’m fighting for him
I’m not running, and I’m not stopping. No matter Pope’s decision. I’m sticking around to see this thing through.
Call my parents, City Business. File a lawsuit.
This is a righteous anger. And for once I’m not backing down.
You are the antithesis of Christ’s message. Christ spoke about love and compassion. You speak about riches and personal glory. You threaten anyone who disagrees with you.
You are wrong. Your message is wrong. And you need to stop.
RSS feed for posts
December 17th, 2004 at 5:09 pm
amen, brother! amen! I think you two have touched a nerve, and my wife and I encourage you to keep up the good work! P.F. and his Strategic Leadership Team are powerless to stop you!
December 17th, 2004 at 6:04 pm
I sure hope this sight is bigger than any one man or women. By the counter on the bottom it sure looks like it.
December 17th, 2004 at 6:34 pm
I am little bit concerned. It seems there have been some very personal attacks against the individuals behind this site. I can’t say for certain, but I don’t think that it is a battle between them and the City Businessmen. It is simply about the Word of God.
December 17th, 2004 at 10:21 pm
How could anyone be so stupid as to drink cyanide Mr Jones?!? It starts with a little frog and some WARMING water! What’s less christian mr.E …sarchasm or intimidation and threats?
December 17th, 2004 at 10:25 pm
Where have you gone Richard Iverson …
Portland wonders which side you’d be on …
to the tune by Simon and Garfunkle
December 17th, 2004 at 10:48 pm
Hi Guys,
I’ve enjoyed lurking on your blog. I’m a great fan of the freedom of information and communication allowed by the net and am a blogger myself. I hestitated jumping into this thread. It appears as thought all the participants are young people, probably brought up in a particularly controlling version of City Bible Church. I’m an old guy. I’ve had a relationship with Bible Temple/CBC since 1970 when I first came into contact with it as “Jesus Freak.” In fact, I’m an elder of CBC and have been since 1990.
I certainly respect your right to freely communicate your ideas (and hurts). I’m also a great fan of sarcasm (sometimes to my own hurt). More than that, I’m concerned about the individuals involved. I wish I could help. At least dialogue in good faith. I also wish I knew who you were. In any case, my contact information is freely available. Feel free to contact me at my e-mail address. We’re on the same team.
Peace, my friends.
December 17th, 2004 at 11:00 pm
New Anonymous not same as others
I have spent the last hour or so reading every single post from this site ( I know I am a slow reader.) This is what I feel God has led me to write. Before I get into that now, know that I have been to CBC many times. I came only as a visitor and have never called that church my home. I attend a church that was once linked with CBC but has since unplugged itself from them for what I belevie are many of the same reasons I have read. Here are my impressions:
1. I do read how the origanal posters have been freed from their bitterness. I would pray that the Holy Spirit would search the hearts of these posters and see if they have truly forgiven this church. I say this because in some of the posts I see much hurt is still there.
2. I pray CBC “higherups” who vist this site will pay attention to what has been posted here. Ask that God would try YOUR ways also, there is much truth here. There may be several areas where you as a church may have lost sight of Christ. I heard Billy Graham once say “The church does not need your money, God will provide for his churches just as he did to Isreal wandering in the desert. God wants your money because it is the area where we want to be least dependent on Him and most in ourselves.” I have heard of a church where the pastor thanked the church and said that all their needs were met and they felt that God wanted them to give todays tithe to the most needy in the body. So anyone that had need could take from the basket and meet those needs. I have never seen this happen but do not beleive it is because God has NOT asked the Pastors to do it.
3. This is the wrong way to present your side to the christians in churches that are like CBC. You are dividing the body of Christ and God will never be pleased by that. In the same way the other anonymous has cast judgement on the new church that the Reformed Pope attends. We must remember we are all still going to heaven when we die, no matter how messed up we make tithe, or how hurt we are about how a church has treated us. If we beleive that Jesus Christ has died on the cross as payment for our sins and we earnestly try to live like He did, than I will see you in heaven. We are all imperfect men.
3. The greatest fourum you have to share when you are asked why you left this church would be to share one on one with that person your heart.
4. I truly hope that Reformed Pope would reconsider writing anymore on this blog, I hope that the others who have started it would also reconsider. I hope that CBC will hear God’s voice in this matter.
5. Christ deals with all of us in love. Though we need correction, Christ has our best interest at heart. In this blog you are not trying to turn your brothers and sisters in love but rather in sarcasum. If the elders and the church will not listen than wipe the dust from your feet (and your hearts) and let God cast His judgemnet on them (which will be more severe than this Blog).
God Bless all involved.
December 17th, 2004 at 11:04 pm
First, I want it to be known that this is Anonymous #2 (the friar), not Anonymous #1. Second, I have two opinions about this web site, and what it represents, and what has occured thus far. First, I don’t know if the reformed pope’s brother was exagerating the meeting that took place earlier today, but if it is even remotely true, I find it appalling that the ministry team of BT (that is the church name that I am familiar with) would go so far as to confront what I consider to be “childs-play.” To me, they are conveying fear, and what do they have to fear as God-fearing Christians with a web-site? They, the monster underneath my bed, decided to haunt and taunt an individual, give them the wounded soldier complex, all against the idealism of freedom of speech, with threats and a demeaning of character. They, made themselves look drastically smaller than the property on which they reside. I remember the time I moved to Portland and first attended BT on Glisan St. I was young I admit, but I do recall a church with much more integrity than the BT I left, and certainly a BT (or CBC) I have been reintroduced to. It does not surprise me in the least bit that they now serve lattes, with a lazer light show during worship, and an astronomicaly huge picture of the pastor who should, with all due respect, remain humble. I’m not surprised, but still can’t help that it ruffles my feathers just a wee bit!!! My second point is as follows: I could be wrong, and please correct me if I am, but it appears as though there are two people who comment quite frequently on this web-site. It also appears as though these two people know its originator and are possibly friends with them. If this is indeed the case, than I am getting conflicting messages from the both of you. I find your behavior and comments terrific. Why? Because, first you laugh and congratulate. Then you will turn around and contradict yourselves by blasting the works of these two. If you are indeed friends, then why do you sit on your computer 24-7 to make these frivilous comments if you don’t approve. My question to you is, “Why even read the damn thing if you don’t approve?” If you are truly a good friend as you claim to be, then you should have known his heart long before this web-site ever came about. Therefore, if you chose to deal with their angst before this, then shut the (you know what) up. Justin, get it on with you bad self. I happen to remember you from a LONG time ago, and have no desire to disclose my identity. But, if it is any consolation to you, I, and many others, are on you and your brother’s side. Take care.
December 18th, 2004 at 12:17 am
I am yet another anonymous one with a comment. I too was an attendee of the church formerly known as BT. I hope that this blogger will continue, I think that it is a great thing to critically think about issues and the such. I believe the church, CBC in particular, is scared to death of people who think for themselves. I do not believe we can go through life blindly led by the VERY WELL DRESSED MAN behind the pulpit asking for more money. I hope they do not succeed in deterring this open discussion of learning and exploration. Ultimately, if City Business had nothing to hide they would not be acting in such a guilty manner. As they have, within my perception, acted for the past 12 or 13 years.
December 18th, 2004 at 3:21 am
Oregon Fish,
I was curious if you might know a Francis Anfuso? I believe he is currently a pastor in Sacremento, CA. Of anyone that I would ever put credence in as an individual representing a body of Christ, it would be him. I would love for him to give two pence to this, what do you call, an uprising from philosophizing to an absolute in regards to indoctrination…or a lack thereof. Once again, this is the friar speaking.
December 18th, 2004 at 7:10 am
Thank you all for your comments. The internet is the perfect forum for airing grievances. I truly appreciate all of them. There is nothing like criticism to keep a person humble.
I will admit I have a hard time defending the manner in which we are attacking the church. I am unable to find a place where Jesus mocked his enemies. But I’m looking.
I guess I compare ourselves to Jesus overturning the tables in the Temple. In 2004 overturning tables gets you arrested, so you start a blog. This is perhaps a bad analogy, but I’m going with it.
This blog started two weeks ago as a way for me and my brother to make ourselves laugh. And that was truly its only purpose. But it has attracted a lot of attention.
I am absolutely amazed at the number of people who feel the same way we do. And for that reason, I’m pretty sure we’ll keep this thing going, at least until CBC complains to Blogger and they shut us down.
Nevertheless, its been a fun two weeks. And hopefully after this, every time CBC mention tighing, giving and blessing, the congregation immediately becomes skeptical. I know I do.
December 18th, 2004 at 7:38 am
Two other points:
Oregon Fish: Its not really a secret who we are. Since you’ve attended the church since 1990, just ask around. Everyone knows. And if the Willamette Week prints anything, they will reveal our identities. So, don’t worry, we’re gonna be outed.
And I desperately want to blog something about Richard Iverson. There is a man I respect. He managed to run a large church without constantly preaching about giving.
Do any of his children or grandchildren still attend the church?
December 18th, 2004 at 7:51 am
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
December 18th, 2004 at 10:10 am
Yes, Dick & Edie Iverson still attend CBC. Dick is an elder in the church and our apostolic “father.” In fact, the Iverson family is seriously intermarried in the church. One of our younger pastors, Gareth Gilpin, is married to a grand niece, etc.
BTW, for those of you who have found your “home,” you have my sincere congratulations. There’s nothing finer than home. CBC is home for me, and I love it.
December 18th, 2004 at 10:26 am
Justin, John Paul and Jesse, I love you guys, and I respect you and you opinions. It is good to question the church and to know and understand what they preach.
I hope that you have found a good church that feeds you and you family(John paul)I am glad you posted this blog because it does make people think and I know that something will come for this. I go to CBC and love it, but I know that people are diferent and I respesct that. But, I guess what I am saying is keep your heads up, I know you love the church or you wouldn’t spend Time trying to fix it. And try not to let any bitterness or anger cloud your thinking. I love you guys and pray Gods will over you life.
P.S. This is Anonymous#1 i’m old school
December 18th, 2004 at 11:02 am
Hi guys. It’s been a while! As someone who grew up in the church and is now “on the inside” of things, I would love to have an opportunity to chat. I’m not going to try to tell you that you’re wrong or try to talk you into coming back. If you feel like you are being fed where you are at then that is fantastic! I would be glad to go to coffee and have a chance to catch up and to give another perspective on the things which concern you. Email me at james@nwinfotech.com if you have a chance.
BTW, I think we all feel safer now that Mr. Andrew is south of the border–not that I ever think about that.
James
December 18th, 2004 at 1:25 pm
This post has been removed by the author.
December 19th, 2004 at 2:48 am
I hope he recovers fast.
I just wanna let you guys know I’m supporting you guys too.
And this blog…. is awesome.
March 22nd, 2006 at 9:14 pm
I have found these blogs quite interesting as I attended PBC and BT for 5 years and Frank’s church at ECF for 5 more years and have nothing but good memories. I also have the highest respect for Dick Iverson and all the many ways he has impacted my family and 2 more generations. Not perect but the best I was ever involved with.
Anonomous
March 23rd, 2006 at 2:16 pm
ananomoius-9:14
“I have found these blogs quite interesting as I attended PBC and BT for 5 years and Frank’s church at ECF for 5 more years and have nothing but good memories.”
Nothing but “good” memories in ten years huh?
I think that is called denial but anywho…
Thanks for being sincere Mr Asplund. I think a man in your position may be experiencing a phenomenon which may change the course of the christian faith.
If we are open and patient enough to listen, we may find some new truths which will have a lasting impact on the world.
Let’s not forget that we must love each others’ differences and concerns as god himself gave us these minds, experiences and life.
P.S. On the 20’s vs. 30’s thing. My opinion is this. People who are 30+ are residing in bodies which are naturally dying. It’s science but I learned this from B Mac. It’s scary when you understand your earthly body is dying! People over the age of 30 are naturally going to be more interested in going with the flow and adding their own “flair” ie. butt rock laser lights, big screen TV’s like Aerosmith, righteous indignation like Petra, ect.
People who are 20+, are still experiencing the world and seeking the TRUTH. People who are 20+ feel it is their duty as christians to get to the truth of our faith.
30+ people are ready to roll over and take what is given them. After all, they have to make good impressions if they are to marry into a good church and family ect.
p.s.s I don’t claim to be “annointed” by god so rip me a new one if you don’t like my post peeps!!!