I suppose I deserve this
Posted on December 23rd, 2004 by catalyst into the Uncategorized categoryYou start a blog making fun of a church, and then invite a bunch of your friends to join, you’re going to get posts which you think cross the line. I didn’t think I really had a line that someone could cross, but apparently I do.
And somewhere, between Mission Statement and Ramblings, I stopped being a funny blogger and became a babysitter.
Whatever, I guess I’ll just try to stay on top of it. But please contributors, we are attacking a mindset, not the people themselves. The minute you resort to attacking people personally, you discredit whatever message you are trying to convey.
And Reformed Pope is the only person to have his name published publicly, so he gets all the grief. And then I get the grief… and then my mother calls…. and it’s just not worth it.
(This is way too much work)
(And I think this blog just jumped the shark.)
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December 23rd, 2004 at 3:54 pm
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December 23rd, 2004 at 3:57 pm
Keep up the good work and keep the faith, brother! There’s a lot of items we could discuss about the church in America today that are fundamentally wrong and not entirely Biblical. I have no bitterness toward CBC specifically, but I do have a lot of personal history with them and from experience I now realize they are but a half step from TBN with the gold piano on the studio platform. I agree, getting personal in our attacks would just be feeding into the beast, thanks for removing the post from earlier today!
December 23rd, 2004 at 4:02 pm
Catalyst,
Brilliant cultural reference.
December 23rd, 2004 at 4:02 pm
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December 23rd, 2004 at 4:07 pm
It’s funny how you start off by saying that this whole thing came about because you decided to make fun of a church. Let’s face it, you really don’t care about the way CBC gets their tithes and offerings you just want to get your last stab at them because your mad that nobody noticed when you or your family left the church! The real issue hear is that your really mad at your dad, aren’t you?
December 23rd, 2004 at 4:23 pm
Anthony, when did you lose your sense of humor?
December 23rd, 2004 at 4:29 pm
to megachurchsurvivor,
You have a lot of nerve to compare CBC to TBN. Can you go and sit in a service at TBN? Can you be blest by the pastoral staff at TBN, personally? I’m sorry that you have opened gates in your heart to let the Devil come in and cofuse you. Remember, “From the heart the mouth speaketh”. If you don’t want to tithe that’s fine by me, you’ll just join the other 95% of christians who don’t. I’m sure you would be better off at a Jehova’s Witness church where they just give whenever they want and they don’t have paid pastors to disciple or equip the church for God’s work. Just remember that you can’t celebrate any holiday’s. I believe that the reason that CBC focuses on the tithing part of the bible is because American’s are bombarded day after day by advertising that tell’s us that we need to go out and by the best of everything for ourselves and if we don’t people might think less of us. We forget that the reason that we can have the things that we want is because God allows money to flow through our hands and it’s God’s money not ours. If you want to refer to the New Testament then we should be giving everything to God. 10% of what God gives us is not asking much. What do you think?
December 23rd, 2004 at 4:29 pm
Thanks for removing that post catalyst. You will never be able to acomplish anything in life if you resort to petty/bitter personal attacks. Any valid points will be completely discounted.
December 23rd, 2004 at 4:43 pm
“The minute you resort to attacking people personally, you discredit whatever message you are trying to convey.”
Thank you for your poignant assessment of the nature of this blog! Indeed loving our enemies (not necessarily their ideas) is a foundation of Christ’s teachings.
Good work,
Diotrephes
December 23rd, 2004 at 4:50 pm
I gotta be honest with you Diotrephes, I never understand what you’re saying. I know you’re smart, but you’re not very clear.
I think you are saying I’m a hypocrit, and you’re right. There are some personal attacks on this blog. “Damazio 3:16″ being one of them.
But just because I’m a hypocrit, doesn’t mean I’m wrong. And I’ll ask it again. Its my mantra: Why are they charging $20 to park at the conference?
It just seems greedy.
December 23rd, 2004 at 5:04 pm
Catalyst,
I’m sorry if that was confusing. I certainly wasn’t calling you a hypocrite. I was attempting to encourage the statement: “The minute you resort to attacking people personally, you discredit whatever message you are trying to convey.”
Best,
Diotrephes
December 23rd, 2004 at 5:07 pm
Catalyst the same new testament wich does not directly mention tithing in the same way as it is mentioned in the law also tells us that one day we will give account to God for what we did and did not do. If the 20 beans is eating you alive write a letter leave a voice mail if they change great if not keep loving Jesus you have done your part. If it really bothers you all you can do is bring it to thier attention. If you let it get to you like that you are going to do be filled with frusteration. Do what you can do in the right way with the right attitude and give the rest to God.
December 23rd, 2004 at 5:16 pm
Thanks, Diotrephes, I appreciate the support. And I appreciate your comments, even though I think they are a little long.
ACTION - The $20 isn’t eating me up. Its just an easy example of the church acting greedy. And why are you so accepting of this? Why is this the sin that I should forget about? No, I’m not going to forget about it. Its wrong.
What are you saying?
1)Are you saying its not a sin.
2)Are you saying its a sin, but a little one.
3)Or are you saying its a big sin, but I really really like this church. And I’d rather just look the other way, then confront something that is blatantly unethical.
December 23rd, 2004 at 5:39 pm
Hello! Every other Sunday you watch your pastor preach on a big screen, can you say TBN! How impersonal is that?!
December 23rd, 2004 at 6:38 pm
Are you saying that charging for parking is a sin? I think it is a gray issue. Is it something I would do? No. You confront the people who you feel are at fault CBC and if you can’t agree you bless them and walk away. How is railing going to change thier mind. Your emotioal reaction muddies the waters of biblical and rational thought.
December 23rd, 2004 at 6:46 pm
I’m not sure what you mean by gray area. I’d love a Bible verse on that. But yeah, I think its a sin. There’s no need for it. But I think we’re just gonna have to agree to disagree on this one.
Also, I think the parking issue is indicative of a larger problem with the church and its practices. Charging for parking is just something thats easy to point to. FWIW, I’m sure other churches in the area do the same thing, but I still think its wrong.
December 23rd, 2004 at 6:53 pm
A.C.T.I.O.N.-
Since when was Biblical and rational thought not “emotional reactions”?
-Diotrephes
December 23rd, 2004 at 6:55 pm
By gray I mean there is not a verse in the Bible that says thou shalt not charge for parking. So I am not sure how you can insist that it is a sin. There were venders at the temple that would sell sacrafical animals to people who did not have a sacrafical animal or where traveling from a long distance. All that aside this is america if you don’t want to pay 20 walk. Or ride your bike Pee-Wee would.
December 23rd, 2004 at 6:57 pm
anonymous our emotions are subject to the word of God the word of God is not subject to our emotions.
December 23rd, 2004 at 6:59 pm
I think you’re missing my point. But that’s okay. I plan on sitting here until my brothers stop making up songs, so we’ll keep chatting.
Let’s say charging for parking isn’t a sin. I’m curious why they are doing it then? Do you know?
December 23rd, 2004 at 7:05 pm
capitalisim?
December 23rd, 2004 at 7:10 pm
I guess this is where we disagree. I don’t feel churches should be involved in capitalistic endeavors.
(And neither does the Constitution, hence the establishment clause, the separation of church and state, and the reason churches don’t pay taxes.)
Capitalism is based on greed. And greed is a sin.
December 23rd, 2004 at 7:29 pm
“our emotions are subject to the word of God the word of God is not subject to our emotions.”
My assertion stands that Biblical rationality is often times (if not always) “emotional reactions.” We don’t read the Scriptures in a vacuum outside our emotions. Truthfully, we must read the Bible with our emotions. In fact, we should be very honest about how we feel when we approach Scripture, so we don’t read our emotions into the text.
That bit about “venders at the temple” sure sounded like something I heard at church recently…
-Diotrephes
December 23rd, 2004 at 7:30 pm
Catalyst and ACTION,
I gotta agree with you, even if there is a perfectly good reason, I doesn’t seem right to charge 20 bucks for parking.
I don’t know if the reason is capitalism–I think it’s because they are short on parking. Look at our tax structure–money is a good way to encourage or discourage certain behaviors or choices.
And is capitalism based on greed? Maybe it is more about getting a good return for your hard work–a very biblical concept.
And why shouldn’t a church engage in capitalistic endeavor? What if the church was to start a business or invent a product or provide a service. Do you think that $ could maybe benefit the Kingdom of God? Sounds like a good idea to me.
December 23rd, 2004 at 7:31 pm
Diotrephes,
Why do you call yourself that?
December 23rd, 2004 at 7:39 pm
I was half joking many times there are practical reasons why things are done maybe they don’t want to tick of the neighbors by people parking on thier lawns. So to limit the amount of cars up on Rocky Butte they charged for it. I don’t know but as a Christian and Conservitive (since you ushered in politics) I am optimistic and believe the best in people. I also beieve in capitialism and I disagree that capitialism is based on greed. Are there greedy capitists? Yes. I am a capitilist who is not ruled by greed. Money/capitialism is not evil it is when your desire for that is greater than your love for God.
As for the seperation of Church and state don’t get me going on that one. It was never ment to serlize our nation and culture of religion but to keep the government from forcing someone to worship in a certin way. Keeping the governments hands out of religion not religion out of government.
December 23rd, 2004 at 7:47 pm
Forever and idealist,
My momma named me, trust me I got made fun of allot growing up. Especially because my mom didn’t read: “3 John 1:9 I wrote something to the church; but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, does not accept what we say.”
-Diotrephes
December 23rd, 2004 at 7:47 pm
Anonymous:
I agree we are emotional beings are emotions are part of who we are. My point is that many times we react and are angered by things which are not a big deal in the word of God. We live in a nation that is feelings orintated. How someone feels is more real to them then what the word of God actualy says about the subject.
As far as the money changers Jesus wasn’t mad at the selling of the sacrafice but the fact that they were selling second rate,lame, blind sacrifics. God desires that we bring him our best.
December 23rd, 2004 at 7:59 pm
ACTION:
Thanks for the clarification. But I wish to ask: who decides what’s a “big deal” and what isn’t? And: Is there a nation somewhere that isn’t “feelings oriented”?
Your right, many jettison the word of God in service of their preference. But lets not serve one “big deal” and get rid of the other “big deals.”
-Diotrephes
December 23rd, 2004 at 8:05 pm
diotrephes,
you’re telling us that that is your real name?
December 23rd, 2004 at 8:09 pm
Forever an idealist,
I’m sorry for my ambiguity. No this is not my real name. I was attempting (though I failed) to be funny. As someone pointed out above… “I don’t do well at parties”
Honestly, I thought Diotrephes was a good name for a satirical blog.
-Diotrephes
December 23rd, 2004 at 8:13 pm
Forever an idealist…
Unfortunately, I feel I must point out that “getting a good return on hard work” is indeed NOT a biblical concept.
December 23rd, 2004 at 8:34 pm
Diotrephes,
You’re telling us that that is your real name? No one who doesn’t read the Bible would know that name, and no one who reads the Bible would name their child that. At least, I don’t think so…
December 23rd, 2004 at 8:43 pm
Youth Overcomer,
Check out. Proverbs & Ecclesiastes. And check out history. Many times, but not all, cultures who saw their financial picture through the Word of God and the “Protestant Work Ethic” prospered and grew. In fact, that is where the Industrial Revolution came from. On the other hand, countries that see their socio-economic status in a fatalistic way end up with most of the people living in suffering and squalor–e.g. India
December 23rd, 2004 at 8:47 pm
Youth Overcomer:
Good return for hard work:
Parable of the Talents Matt. 25
Older brother “Prodical son” Luke 15
Prov. 14:23 All hard work brings a profit, but mere talk leads only to poverty.
Prov. 12:14 From the fruit of his lips a man is filled with good things as surely as the work of his hands rewards him.
to name a few
December 23rd, 2004 at 9:12 pm
action,
are you still on?
December 23rd, 2004 at 9:18 pm
yes
December 23rd, 2004 at 9:19 pm
We’ve got a love match a.c.t.i.o.n and idealist
December 23rd, 2004 at 9:22 pm
actually 15-love; Match point
December 23rd, 2004 at 11:36 pm
How about 40-love?
Get it straight.
December 23rd, 2004 at 11:43 pm
Action…Americanized, republicanized capitalistic cross-breeding with Christianity is not the way it was supposed to be, new testament brothers.
December 24th, 2004 at 2:04 am
Is cross breeding the issue, or are these traits the bastard children of Christianity in western civilization?
-Diotrephes
December 24th, 2004 at 7:33 am
Capitalism isn’t a dirty word. It’s simply economic freedom. It is what reason and history prove to be the best, simplest economic structure. Throughout history, the only people who have had a problem with it have been tyrants, oppressors, and sloths. Most recently it has been the Marxists who condemned capitalism. And we all know what a wonderful world they created, don’t we.
This is a great country. Any half able-bodied person who wants one can get a job or make a job and prosper.
Republicanism isn’t the answer to all America’s problems. But if you look at the planks of each party’s platform, there is clearly one party that aligns most closely to the principles of the Word of God. Our loyalty isn’t to a party, but to God. But a party is a way to be involved.
And Christians shouldn’t be isolationists, retreating to piety and spirituality behind their four walls, letting society decay and people suffer. We need to be salt and light. We need to be influencers, not influenced.
December 24th, 2004 at 7:36 am
Anonymous & Diotrephes:
I would like to clear up a few things I am not a republican actually am a registered democrat, who is a conservitive to the core.
I beieve that Government should have less involvement in many areas of our daily lives. There should be no welfare the “The Church” should take care of the poor and needy.
The priority of every church should be as Christ set it out to be 1. Love the Lord with all your heart 2. love your neighbor as your self. The good samaritian further cleared up who our neighbor is. One thing that is interesting to note is that the good samaritan used (gasp) dare I say it…. Money to pay for the hospital (what no socialized health care) and hotel for the man who was beaten.
Our love for Christ must be primary anything above that love is sin. The evidance of that love for God is seen in our lives poured out to meet the needs of those we encounter daily.
One last thing. Anonymous & Diotrephes I have a question if capitalism is so wrong and so horrible why do we see more rubber rafts making thier way from Florida to the oasis that is Cuba?
December 24th, 2004 at 7:37 am
R A B:
You are correct sir my mistake on the tennis referance.
December 24th, 2004 at 9:25 am
“How do you tell a Communist? Well, it’s someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an Anti-communist? It’s someone who understands Marx and Lenin.” –Ronald Reagan
December 24th, 2004 at 9:27 am
“In a capitalist society, all human relationships are voluntary. Men are free to cooperate or not, to deal with one another or not, as their own individual judgments, convictions and interests dictate.” –Ayn Rand
December 24th, 2004 at 9:28 am
“Some see private enterprise as a predatory target to be shot, others as a cow to be milked, but few are those who see it as a sturdy horse pulling the wagon.” –Winston Churchill
December 24th, 2004 at 10:46 am
Typical…response of this kind whenever capitalism is mentioned. It’s not wrong, it just doesn’t meet the needs of all the 250+ million people in a pluralistic, complex, electronically altered society where the top 10% or so control all the wealth and the rest of us try to cope with excessive inflation and health care costs that are prohibitive. You need a lot of caring, concerned people to help others out there, and government is definitely needed in all areas, like it or not. It was our precious U.S. government that fueled our country into protections against the abuses of extreme wealth and monopolistic industrial practices, and that helped us to grow in our capitalistic society. If you get rid of the checks and balances, you have selfishness and greed ruling the country, simply because they can. I simply object to Christian churches becoming big money making machines, without paying taxes, and using that money however they please, in a lot of cases. That’s where the capitalistic cross-breeding with the pure message of The Cross of Jesus doesn’t work.
December 24th, 2004 at 10:47 am
Typical…response of this kind whenever capitalism is mentioned. It’s not wrong, it just doesn’t meet the needs of all the 250+ million people in a pluralistic, complex, electronically altered society where the top 10% or so control all the wealth and the rest of us try to cope with excessive inflation and health care costs that are prohibitive. You need a lot of caring, concerned people to help others out there, and government is definitely needed in all areas, like it or not. It was our precious U.S. government that fueled our country into protections against the abuses of extreme wealth and monopolistic industrial practices, and that helped us to grow in our capitalistic society. If you get rid of the checks and balances, you have selfishness and greed ruling the country, simply because they can. I simply object to Christian churches becoming big money making machines, without paying taxes, and using that money however they please, in a lot of cases. That’s where the capitalistic cross-breeding with the pure message of The Cross of Jesus doesn’t work.
December 24th, 2004 at 10:49 am
ACTION:
“Anonymous & Diotrephes I have a question if capitalism is so wrong and so horrible why do we see more rubber rafts making their way from Florida to the oasis that is Cuba?”
I’m not sure how I got lumped into your accusative question. My point above was that capitalism, republicanism, and the sort are the result of Christianity’s influence in Western Civilization.
However, I’m not sure we should consult Ayn Rand as Christians. Her system asks us to love ourselves rather than our neighbor.
Forever and Idealist:
“But if you look at the planks of each party’s platform, there is clearly one party that aligns most closely to the principles of the Word of God.”
What principles would you be speaking of? Are you referring to the preemptive war principle?
-Diotrephes