Ramblings
Posted on December 23rd, 2004 by catalyst into the Uncategorized categoryI don’t know where to go from here.
For me, this blog has accomplished everything I had hoped it might accomplish. I’m tempted to follow George Costanza’s lead and say, “Thank you. I’m out.” Just leave on a high note.
But I figure, the church can not go forever without asking for money. As one member told Reformed Pope the other day, “You are mocking our core belief.”
The church truly believes that if you keep giving them money, God will bless you. Maybe? I don’t know. Job gave a lot of money, and God gave him hemorrhoids.
(Don’t you think that when Job finally got to heavan, he was like, “Uh, God. Next time you plan on proving a point to Satan, could you please just pick an Angel or something. You were killing me down there.”)
I’ve always admired Job’s faith and his commitment to God. Despite being penniless and flirting with death. Did he respond in anger? Did he say, “Lord but I tithed. I gave to Faith Harvest.” No, he simply said:
“Naked I have come from my mother’s womb, and naked I will depart. The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.”
I always thought the Church should have preached that verse a little more. I think that is a more responsible attitude to have toward prosperity. Maybe God will bless me and give me millions of dollars, maybe he won’t. But I will continue to love Him and serve Him no matter what.
I don’t really have a point here, other than to say, I guess I’ll keep blogging…
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December 23rd, 2004 at 9:03 am
as far as job he did lose everything yes but he also ended up with more than when he started. God was not punishing him for fun or because he didn’t tithe or did tithe. God was after his heart, I believe that Job had a problem with selfishness not money. He responed the way we all should in times of pain. “though He slay me yet will i praise Him.
December 23rd, 2004 at 12:56 pm
Good afternoon, my friends. And Merry Christmas to all of you.
The cry of our day is a search for authentic community, and the implies committed, intimate relationships. In my experience, community happens wherever we seek it and prioritize it. Community can happen in our local churches if we work at it.
To me, a local church, any local church, is a relational network of real people with Jesus at the head. It is not primarily an institution or a set of values or ideals or doctrines or practices. All of those things tend to be moving targets in the big picture. I’m committed to finding real relationships and real community in the church. That means several foundational things for me:
1. By definition, there are no perfect churches, no perfect pastors, and no perfect Christians, simply because there are no perfect human beings. If ever found a truly “perfect church,” as soon as I joined it, it would no longer be perfect–because I’m not perfect. I don’t commit myself to a local church because I think it’s perfect–or even better than any other local church.
2. It is the Holy Spirit who “plants” in a local faith community. It’s not my choice. My role is to discern what would give the Lord pleasure and commit myself to that.
3. Once I discern my “home,” my role is to commit myself unconditionally to the people in that community. I’m not there to perfect them or criticize them or mock them–I’m there to serve them. I will disengage from that community only if that is the clearly confirmed will of the Father.
There is a long tradition of “giving” in both Christianity and Judaism (in fact, in most religious traditions). The Bible supports such a tradition from Genesis to Revelation. Tne Old Testament tells stories of Abel giving the best portions to the Lord (Gen 4:4) and of Abram giving a tenth as an act of worship (Gen 14:20). Giving the Lord a sacred portion as an act of worship is described in several contexts (Ex 22:29; Lev 27:32; Num 6:21; Deut 14:22-28; etc., etc.). Giving of our stuff to the Lord was always primarily viewed as worship, as a vital part of covenant relationship with God.
The prophets rebuked those who were stingy with God (Mal 3:10-12). The New Testament no where contradicts this understanding of worship (Matt 23:23; Heb 7:8,9). However, the Pharisaic approach, giving to earning browny points with God, was clearly condemned (Luke 18:12).
Paul frequently referred to the role of generous giving in the Christian faith, and even publicly took offerings to facilitate the mission (1 Cor 16:1; 2 Cor 8 & 9). Was a blessing ever promised? Absolutely! Did it always imply a financial blessing? Definitely not! We are not bargaining with God–we’re worshiping. The greatest blessing we could ever receive is relationship with the Lord, the presence of the Lord.
City Bible Church receives an offering during its weekend services which always includes some exhortation from the Scripture. However, in all the years I’ve been associated with BT/CBC, I’ve never heard any teaching that contradicts what I outlined above.
Thank you for the invitation to be a participant on this blog. Your email invited me to “represent the interests of CBC.” However, no individual could represent CBC. At best, I could only represent myself. In addition, I’m afraid I’m losing grace for seeing my friends and loved one publicly mocked. I’m starting to take it personally, which means it’s time to stop reading your offensive mistatements, exeragtions and misrepresentations of my faith community–my family.
It’s obviously very few contributors to theis blog have the faintest idea what CBC is all about. You’re obviously not aware, for instance, that the Portland Rescue Mission is significantly led and staffed by members of CBC. You clearly are not aware of the effort we coordinate every year to serve the public school system by maintaining their properties. You don’t know (or are not willing to acknowledge) the daily food and clothing ministries we operate. You’re not aware of the fact that if any member of our community was having difficulty paying their rent or utilities, we would glad help them out. (I’m afraid the list to go on and on, ad infinitum.)
Therefore, I need to spend my time more productively. If there are any actual members of the CBC community who have real questions as a result of this sarcastic misrepresentation of CBC, please feel free to e-mail me or call me at PBC.
Peace.
Larry Asplund
December 23rd, 2004 at 5:07 pm
Larry,
Thank you very much for your comment. I am sorry you’re offended. And the church should be commended for its work with Portland Rescue Mission.
However, no one has yet to address why the church is charging $20 for people to park at a conference where the emphasis is on Jesus.
I genuinely believe that this is both immoral and unbiblical. And I genuinely believe that if Christ pulled up and saw people collecting cash he would be enraged.
And your answer seems to be that no church is perfect.
Well, I’ll leave with a verse.
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly father is perfect. -Matthew 5:31.
December 23rd, 2004 at 7:19 pm
First time caller, long time listener. Lots of interesting things. Let me start by saying that you almost got Fish, but not really. When he said no one is perfect, he meant it in the sense that no human is flawless. But in the verse that you just sited, “perfect” means complete, not flawless. So it doesn’t quite apply. You do have a great sense of humor, though.
December 23rd, 2004 at 7:31 pm
As for the meaning of “perfect” in that verse, I tend to agree. I never thought a literal meaning jived with “All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.”
Which brings me to my other problem with the Bible, which verses do you take literally? I don’t know. If by perfect Jesus meant complete, then why didn’t he just say “complete.”
And you’re right Fish was talking about humans being imperfect. However, I think he was also kind of justifying the actions of the church. Saying, “Yeah maybe we focus too much on money, but we’re not perfect.” And I don’t think you can use imperfection to justify the failures of a church.
You can use it describe “why” you made a mistake, but not to justify it.
December 23rd, 2004 at 8:00 pm
Cat,
As for literal and figurative, generally most parts of the Bible are to be taken literally. In general, the figurative parts are…
1. in poetic portions of Scripture–”the Lord is my high tower,” “the earth is his footstool.”
2. in the apocalyptic portions (like Daniel and Revelation)–”the moon will turn to blood.”
3. in places where people are clearly speaking figuratively, using hyperbole, or exaggerating to make a point–”if your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out.”
Why didn’t Jesus just say “complete?” Good question. Of course he didn’t say “perfect” either–He was speaking Greek. When the NT was translated into English, they chose the word “perfect” to translate the word he used. at that time, “perfect” meant what the word “complete” means to us now. This is just an example of how the meaning of certain words drifts a bit as the centuries go by.
I don’t know if Fish was trying to justify–maybe just to explain. But I agree, human imperfection can never be used to justify sin. I hate it when people say, “Jesus will understand if I [insert any sin here]. After all, He knows I’m only human.” Hogwash. He expects righteousness and obedience. I am curious to see if you will ever get an answer to your “mantra.”
December 23rd, 2004 at 11:40 pm
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December 23rd, 2004 at 11:42 pm
I think “Forever an Idealist” is the smartest person ever.
December 24th, 2004 at 7:39 am
I think Reformed Arch Bishop is using hyperbole.