Verse of the Week (Dec 23rd)
Posted on December 23rd, 2004 by Reformed Pope into the Scriptures category1 Timothy 5:19-20 (New International Version)
19Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.
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December 23rd, 2004 at 9:32 am
You arrogant bastards.
December 23rd, 2004 at 11:00 am
That’s Mister Arrogant Bastard, to you sir.
December 23rd, 2004 at 11:38 am
Most would prefer to capitulate to Jesus’ solution for solving church conflict (Mtt. 18:15-17) wherein Christ admonishes three stages: go first to the individual, then go with two, then tell it to the whole congregation. This allows for a greater deal of promiscuity, gentleness and overall discreetness.
Yet we must acknowledge that Christ is administering a suggestion for Christians in common. Here in 1 Timothy we have Paul addressing specifically “elders” (1 Tim. 5:19) there seems to be within the NT a greater responsibility set upon teachers, and elders (Jas 3:1 “let not many of you become teachers knowing as such we will incur a stricter judgment”) It is in this tone which we may understand Paul’s thoughts towards Timothy here. Though Paul seems to be carrying along the tradition of Jesus he as modified it to accommodate for the specificity of elders.
Leadership within the church is a wonderful responsibility and when error has occurred Paul wishes to see it addressed. Yet in this parenesis Paul prescribes a flow of thought similar to that of Jesus’:
Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses.
Here he first eliminates the possibility of trivial issues, emphasizing that the elder should be allowed freedom and a certain deal of trust. Indeed Paul follows the Jewish tradition in seeking to establish two witnesses for any court accusation (Deut 19:15).
Those who continue in sin,
Here the formulation assumes that at least two individuals have confronted the elder. Paul hopes that this will curtail the issue yet aware of human nature, and inevitable stubbornness he further categorized the dictum. No doubt Paul is familiar with this continuing in sin issue: (Rom. 6:1).
rebuke in the presence of all,
His assertion that the elder should be rebuked in front of all only comes after the perfunctory meeting. It seems that Paul has in view the congregation when he regards all. For the bulk of this letter, and indeed this chapter is primarily concerned with the issues within the church. We must not assume that Paul is trying to get the church to defecate upon sinful elders. His concern is for the sanctity of the church and the purity of the teaching therein. That they would follow the tradition given them (2 Thes. 3:6). His hope is that by rebuking the sinful elder that church members would no longer look to them as an example of godly living or a teacher of truth.
so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.
His perspective here is decidedly ecclesiological, he asserts that this should be done for others. Ironically the leader who ought to be setting example of godliness is acquisitioned to be an example of the congregation in a different more humbling light. The church enacts the eventual eschatological judgment of God, though God is the judge Paul here wishes for the church to partake in the divine role. It is an exercise in purification with the health of the church in mind. Paul’s thoughts emphasize that the reputation of the elder is less important than the truthfulness, or godliness of the congregation. This has interesting implications when thinking about the blog site, yet we ought to exclude one misunderstanding first:
We must remember that Paul’s view here is not concerning common church laity, but rather his vision here is toward clergy. This excludes the possibility of hurtful habits of some churches which seek to embarrass church goers in front of all when they have been found sinning- with the thought that it is for the common good. This habit is a misunderstanding of the text, the Christian tradition, and a valiant example of arrogant hubris.
Concerning whether this passage validates this blog site is an impinging question. Perhaps it is the assumption of those who posted it? Nevertheless we must acknowledge that the view of Paul here is to those within the functioning church. One may argue that this blog site is a format for such dialog within the church, yet it has a decidedly public flavor… (ie: WW)
With this stated another more complicated question must arise: even though Paul’s admonition is directed toward the church in house are we limited to his field of view? More simply, Paul’s view is “in church discussion” yet does he exclude “outside church discussion”?
This is the underlying assumption of those which wish this blog would have never started: The text excludes outside church discussion.
The underlying assumption of those taking part with the blog assume: The text does not exclude out of church discussion. Yet both camps are arguing from silence and secondary level assertions. Plainly, this question is unanswerable here, for the text does not address it.
If we wish to probe at such a question we ought to consult the character of ministry in the NT.
As that such a question could be discussed for many pages I simply hope to assert two dialectic points:
First: the Character of Christianity is one of longsuffering, kindness, and love. Secondly: the required belief in truth associated with Christianity assumes discussion regarding its content.
This is most appropriately summed up in Paul’s dictum “but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,” -Eph. 4:15.
-Diotrephes
December 23rd, 2004 at 12:20 pm
Diotrephes,
Nice use of the word promiscuity.
I’m so proud of myself. I only had to look up three words to read that comment.
I know who you are.
December 23rd, 2004 at 1:03 pm
Diotrephes,
Although your participation is very important to the progress of this blog, I would like to define the word comment for you. COMMENT- a note explaining, illustrating, or criticizing the meaning of a writing. You have demonstrated that definition with great amplitude. Just a side note the word is not plural!! Could you next time half the story and get to the point. Thanks!!
Ps By the way… If you sign your name at the end of a elequant long winded speech, otherwise known as a comment, then why continue to be anonymous? Consider that you aren’t playing “The Game.” Possibly you’re in the stands yelling at the players as if YOU could play “The Game” better than anyone else. I emplore you to stop the stories and get in the “The Game.” And don’t make me blog about “The Game,” my 8 year old niece gets it so you can too.
December 23rd, 2004 at 1:11 pm
That’s the funniest thing I’ve read all day. I’m dying…
December 23rd, 2004 at 2:12 pm
I have a christmas song for you. It’s called the 12 days of bitternes. On the 12th day of Christmas my true
love gave to me>>>>>
12 beers a drinking,
11 people leaving,
10 controversies,
9 bars a hopping,
8 curses clinging,
7 people not tithing,
6 blessings lifted,
5 Gold Nose Rings
4 bitter boys
3 unsaved pastors
2 ushamed parents
and a very very dry well for you!
December 23rd, 2004 at 2:39 pm
It not a lot of fun to be attacked with a humorous song is it? I have plenty more where that came from but I don’t believe that God gave us wit to be used to attack people personally. One thing that I found very interesting is that you said that Jack Louman helped you out a lot in your time of need and that you respect him very much. How do you think he gets paid to be able to help people like you and me? Maybe by our tithes and offerings? Our tithes doesn’t just go towards the visual things of the church but it goes to pay for many great full time pastors that have helped thousands of people when they needed them. I don’t know anyone that works as many hours as our pastors for such a little pay-out. Just in case you were wondering about facts, only about 5% of all christians tithe to there church. That means that 95% of christians are robbing God. The thing that I can appreciate about CBC is that they’re no afraid to tell the congregation that tithing is an essential part of being kingdom minded. Ask me later what kingdom minded means because I’m sure you don’t know. If there is truly greed in the hearts of the pastors at CBC don’t you think that God will correct that or have you lost your faith in God? Look at what happened at New Beginners. OOPS! Did I say that? If you can show me in the Bible where it says to give to charity before giving to His church then by all means I’ll stop tithing! Anyway, get over it, get over yourself and get into the kingdom! Peace,I’m out.
December 23rd, 2004 at 2:42 pm
Address the problems and the blog will go away.
December 23rd, 2004 at 2:57 pm
I thought the song was funny and if you have more please post them.
December 23rd, 2004 at 3:20 pm
Former cup bearer,
I apologize for making your brain hurt, and thanks for the encouragement. Given the sensitive subject matter of this blog site it seems more than appropriate to me that we give ample explanation of what is being discussed. Further, blog sites don’t have some written code of conduct, indeed there is not rules to “the game” laying around. The wonder and beauty of the blog is the diversity of it.
The administrators have the ability, if they so desire, to limit the words which one may post. And lastly, anonymity seems to be one of the fundamental essences of the blog.
-Diotrephes
December 23rd, 2004 at 3:45 pm
Free speech is awesome! Let it out CBC, let the healing begin! I bet that your pastors wouldn’t know the difference if you got hit by a bus tomorrow…wait, I take that back, the offering baskets would be a bit short come Sunday and the Forward Together payment coupons would stop pouring in. That might raise some suspision that you’re gone. Go somewhere where they care about you, the person, not you, the paycheck! You’ll see more fruit in your life, and isn’t that the point?
December 23rd, 2004 at 9:39 pm
Very nice.
December 24th, 2004 at 9:28 am
The 12 days of bitterness is an instant classic. Good work with the 4 bitter boys and a very very dry well for me.
December 24th, 2004 at 6:15 pm
Too Much Fluff,
Matthew 19:21
Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”
Looks like it’s time for you to stop tithing. Unless of course you are a liar. I doubt, however, that lying is a “Kingdom Minded” virtue.
Also, what happened @ NewBeginners? What is New Beginners? Is that some who tithes for the first time?