He did not just say that
Posted on January 15th, 2005 by catalyst into the Uncategorized categoryNext week City Bible is holding its annual Prophetic Assembly conference. For those who don’t know, Prophetic Assembly is a conference where the leaders call up members of the church and prophecy over their lives.
Ten years ago I had a prophecy myself, and that prophecy told me to no longer believe in Prophetic Assembly.
Allow me to share.
The year was 1995, I was in high school up on the hill, and as was customary, the school leadership had decided it would be better for me to sit through a Prophetic Assembly, than to learn something useful.
I was sitting in the large dome, (which at this point did not smell of urine), when the prophets called up a young man named Quinn.
(I know Quinn and he’s a great guy. He was one of the few leaders, who at that time actually treated me as an equal, instead of some kid they could manipulate. I’m mentioning his name, only because he recently found this blog and informed my brother that he enjoyed it. So, with apologies to Quinn…)
They called Quinn up to the stage, and the four prophetic leaders all gathered around him and began praying for him in great earnest. After what seemed like forever, one of the older men on the stage, probably 50, declared,
“I see a picture of you in the cold. Somewhere up north, perhaps Alaska. I see you working with Eskimos. I see you being a witness and missionary to the Eskimos.”
Well, this prophecy perked me right up, because unlike the old man on the stage, I knew exactly where he was getting this revelation and it wasn’t from Jesus. He was just remembering an old Bob Dylan song, “The Mighty Quinn (Quinn the Eskimo)” He wasn’t hearing a revelation from God. He just had some thought come up from his subconscious. Only, he didn’t realize it.
Upon hearing this prophecy, I sat straight up in my seat and begin giving everyone around me my patented, “Do you believe this guy?” look. I’m fervishly glancing around for someone, anyone else who caught this. But, of course, no one else caught it. They all bought it hook, line and sinker.
I spoke with some people afterward and they claimed, “If that’s what God said, then that’s what God means.”
Hmmmm, maybe. Or maybe, this guy isn’t hearing from God. Maybe he’s just very perceptive, and speaks well. And maybe he’s just saying whatever comes into his head whether that’s from God or not. And I think if you are going to claim to be speaking for God, you ought to try a little harder to be accurate.
I am not saying God can’t speak through someone in a prophecy. I just don’t think you can organize God to four nights a week between the hours of 3-5 and 7-9. I think God works on his schedule, not yours.
Oh, and if any Eskimo have seen a large white man preaching in their towns, please let me know. I am curious to know how he got there.
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January 15th, 2005 at 6:38 pm
Ohh My God… I forgot all about those days… I can’t believe they still do that. Well sheep got to be told were to go… And all CBC’ers are sheep. I was lucky enough to have the premonition to leave before the slaughtering line.
January 16th, 2005 at 12:23 am
I have also questioned the validity of these prophetic assemblies, having endured them throughout my enrollment at city christian. Fortunately for us we werent given the opportunity to question any of this, but I have heard stories of many false prophecies that never really get talked about publicly. Not to sound overly skeptically but a carefully crafted word choice can apply a meaningful definition to anyones life.
January 16th, 2005 at 9:30 am
Moreover, I find the meaning of the words ‘prophet’ and ‘prophecy’ hijacked and somewhat polluted.
No, this is not to be one of those “in my dictionary…”, or “last I checked…”, or etymology-delving explorations.
But in my study Bible…my humble Catholic Study Bible…the function of the prophet is explained as one who reads the signs of God in the temporal world. What these people do, and (I am about to speak strongly, but it is with love) what I see mostly as what passes for prophecy these days would, if called soothsaying, smell as off.
I mean, is it just me, or is what they call prophecy these days just another way of saying ‘fortune-telling’?
You may disagree with me. That’s cool. But I remain unconvinced that there is anything right going on there.
January 16th, 2005 at 11:57 am
This is a big topic. I do believe that God still speaks to his people. He speaks to us each individually in many ways, one of which is through other Christians. Again, since I no longer use scripture as “ammo,” I won’t quote a bunch of it here, but the NT is full of verses that tell me prophecy is essentially hearing the voice of God (any of the three parts of the Trinity) and speaking what we hear (in various manifestations, i.e., word of knowledge, encouragement, exhortation, etc.). God does still call some to actually “be” prophets. I say all of that to say that I believe that the Lord still wants prophecy and prophets to be a part of our Christian experience. I personally love to hear the voice of God, however he chooses to speak, because every time I hear him, I know a little bit more of his heart.
The trick is being able to discern when what we are hearing is actually the voice of God vs. the voice of man. This is key. Otherwise, we are vulnerable to manipulation and deception. Unfortunately, I have seen too much of both. In CBC and in other churches. In CBC prophetic assemblies, I’ve seen people manipulated into (and out of) all kinds of things, and deceived hugely about who they are. However, I have also seen people encouraged about who they are and how they might specifically fulfill the Great Commission.
Just because someone (no matter who that someone is, how much of a big-wig he is or what his track record allegedly is) SAYS he speaks for God doesn’t mean he does. It is up to each one of us to know God well enough to discern when he is speaking to us and when he is not. As we all know, however, CBC-ers are convinced to trust whatever comes out of the suits-on-the-stage’s mouths. The “spiritual classism” is more evident during prophetic assembly than nearly any other “season” there. Not only because of the “VIPs” on the stage, but because the prophesies that people receive serve to sort them into various spiritual classes. You know what I mean. Those “callled” to “five-fold ministry,” “pastoring,” “handmaiden of the Lord” serving beside her “man of God” husband, etc., are elevated into a higher status immediately after they descend from the platform. Those called to
“administration,” “support” and the like are immediately demoted in the church’s eyes, but also promptly called upon by leaders to grunt-work in some random church program or department. You know the drill. UGH. I’m about to lose my breakfast just thinking about it.
I, too, know Quinn and think he is a great guy…and, as far as I know, currently still in NE Portland with a wife and three kids, not in Alaska.
Hope you’re all staying safe & warm in this ice storm.
January 16th, 2005 at 1:39 pm
Samuel:
I’m not sure what you mean by “Fortune-telling”. Because I think that Fortune Tellers intend to decieve, while I don’t think thats the intention of Prophetic Assembly. I think the people mean well.
But I don’t think they are hearing from God, I think they are just very perceptive people, who can tell a lot about a person by looking at them. This isn’t prophecy, this is intuition.
I would compare Prophetic Assembly to the John Edwards show. I don’t know if you’ve seen his show, but check it out, its the same idea. I remember watching it one day, and thinking, I grew up with this same stuff.
January 16th, 2005 at 11:35 pm
catalyst: “…I just don’t think you can organize God to four nights a week between the hours of 3-5 and 7-9. I think God works on his schedule, not yours.”Well, I suppose they would argue that the schedule itself is prophetic too — or that they are simply setting aside time to be open to God’s prophecy.
catalyst: “Oh, and if any Eskimo have seen a large white man preaching in their towns, please let me know. I am curious to know how he got there.”It would be interesting to know how much of his journey was self-fulfilling prophecy.
freefromthematrix: “Just because someone (no matter who that someone is, how much of a big-wig he is or what his track record allegedly is) SAYS he speaks for God doesn’t mean he does. It is up to each one of us to know God well enough to discern when he is speaking to us and when he is not. …”I’ve always felt that God is able to be speak for God’s self. It would be rude, inappropriate, and possible self-serving to say that I KNOW what God means any more than I KNOW what Richard Simmons means. If Richard Simmons can speak for himself than God can certainly speak for God’s self.
If I claim to have a personal relationship with Richard Simmons than I might be able to predict what Richard Simmons’ views and intentions are. But even if I were his closest friend, I would have to admit that I may be wrong. Similarly, I could claim to have a personal relationship with God, but I must admit that I’m not God and am certainly not even slightly capable of understanding God’s ways.
Although I’m not Jewish and know very little about Judaism, I do like the reverence that Judaism places on God and God’s words. Judaism is very careful about what it attributes to God. Even G-d’s name is treated a holy that many do not even write or speak it. Certainly, very few Jews would claim to prophesy God’s message — let alone set aside a fundraising conference.
January 17th, 2005 at 9:09 am
Having just read this blog for the first time, I find it very humerous. I happen to be married to Q’s sister, so I have stories from an outsider’s perspective on the hurts that a church political theocracy can place on peoples lives.
Not to take away from the very real experience many of you have had, I would like to share with you at CBC. As the son of a pastor who had “slipped away” for about 10 years, God gracefully brought me back into the Kingdom. I was, and am, on fire for the Lord. At this point I was thrilled to be in church, or talking to anyone about the Lord. I couldn’t wait to walk into the Lord’s house.
I was dating Q’s sister at the time (now married to her), and she had just left PBC after 5 years of school. I was thrilled to go to her church and share some of the Godly woman’s spiritual food with her (OK, that sounds a little bizarre, but hey, we were dating)
I went with her for 5 straight services, and you can imagine the slant of the sermons. About the 3d time, I was wrestling myself to even drive across the 205 bridge, being starved for some scripture and insight into it.
One week, she had to work on that Sunday, so I decided to attend by myself. I had decided in my mind that since this would be my 6th visit, I would get up and leave if this entire sevice went as the previous 5, and noone even cracked a bible, and never come back.
Much to my astonishment, once the hour long worship service ended, the pastor asked us to open our bibles to the Old Testament. I was thrilled! Finally! Just what my starving spirit needed!
Here it comes! Wait for it! We will be reading the story of Elijah and the Widow. Elijah, a man of God, was hungry, and asked the widow for something to eat. She told him that the flour and oil was all she had for herself and her son, and that they would eat it, and die. OK, close your bibles.
The rest of the sermon went just as expected. Pastor said to give all you have, and God will give you more (I actually agree with this principle, but think it unwise to build a church on it), then a baby buggy was brought forth, and money was thrown into it to “birth” a new vision. All the business men were prayed over to increase the amount they could “pledge” (not a biblical principle).
Not to slam a church for their beliefs, but I can tell you that as a “revived” believer, I felt spiritually dead upon leaving that day, and have never went back.
I pray for those church members who are sold out to God, who have given all, and who may be led onto paths not intended by Our God. I hope they are included in your prayers also.
January 17th, 2005 at 7:00 pm
Catalyst:
Thanks for your feedback to mine.
Perhaps “fortune-telling” or “soothsaying” is a bit harsh. The reason I grasped at those terms is because I remember feeling the same sort of “oh, yeah?” feeling when I hear someone’s had thier future foretold through, say, cartomancy.
It may be a little off, language being such an inexact thing, and you have a different POV, having been in that environment for years.
I can accept that the leaders of that display aren’t trying to decieve. But in believing they are some sort of connection with the Lord they are decieving themselves, and injecting dishonesty into the process that way. A little dishonesty, even to the selves, in such a community goes a long way. It’s well-intentioned, ultimately kind and loving maybe…but also ultimately harmful.
If, on the other hand, they would offer guidance and take ownership of that guidance, instead of inferring that they are telling you what God is telling them but counseling a certain path based on reflection and Christian meditation, I might be a little less troubled by the process as it was related. Perhaps I’m missing the point, limited in some understanding as I am, but that’s the message I get from this Assembly.
You also mentioned John Edwards. You made a good point but, to be quite blunt, I think that man is a shameless charlatan.
January 18th, 2005 at 9:20 am
This is a former PBC’er who finds this blog hilarious, insightful and entertaining. It’s quite comforting to know that I am not the only one who felt this way. I’m not bitter, just realistic.
I too remember the “waiting on the Lord” at the “Prophetic” (using the term loosely) Assembly. I remember seeing friends of mine being prophecied over and being very confused at how off many of the prophecies were. I had been taught that prophecy was supposed to be confirmation of what you already felt in your heart and not something totally out of left field. So many of them were so generic, too. How hard is it to talk about how fervently Christian people want to serve God? I mean, all the speakers knew that these people had to submit applications even to be kneeling before them so they probably weren’t going too far out on a limb by talking about their heartfelt devotion to Jesus.
One of my favorite memories of a prophetic moment was when I was at another MFI church watching a prophet speak. He was brought in to the church to raise money for the end of a building project. He promised personal prophecies to people who would come to the front and pledge 10K or 5K. And to make things more convenient, you could use a credit card to submit your contribution with the added bonus of being able to pay INTEREST for your prophecy! I didn’t know the “Word of the Lord” was for sale to the highest bidder. Don’t I remember something about Jesus being a bit perturbed at the money changers in the temple or was that a different Jesus?
January 19th, 2005 at 8:02 am
Prophetic assembly, more like Pathetic assembly!
January 20th, 2005 at 11:02 pm
“Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware…Now there are a variety of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are a variety of ministries, and the same Lord. And there are a variety of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For one is given the word of wisdom through the spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same spirit,…and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits….But one spirit works all of these things, distributing to each one just as He wills.” …some portion of scripture from 1 Corinthians 12.
I am pretty much blown away. I have been reading this blog for the past half hour and I’m crying. I myself am a child of an MFI Minister. The Ministerium. Such a weird word. I have been brought up in the midst of all of these things, and I’ve seen so much of it done with the right heart…and so much of it done for the sake of doing it. It joys me to know that there are people that are feeling the same pull and tug as myself. People that are realizing that this “modern” church really is dying. It makes me so sad to think that a lot of these leaders are so set in their ways that they will inevitably be missing a whole generation of people that value authenticity and indoctrination over authoritarianism and performance. Every move of God throughout the history of Christianity has become stagnant. It stings my heart and eyes to say it..but the church that i’ve grown up in and known all of my life as “the right way” … is in all actuality an almost direct converse of what I’ve grown to know true Christianity as.
The church has become a machine. One that operates within a 4 million dollar building, 80 people on staff, and a 100 thousand dollar sound system. A machine run on personality. A machine that communicates everything with complete and constant certainty as opposed to communicating with clarity those things which are most important. High profile individuals (pastors) are placing value on tangible things like facilities, events, services, “life changing” conferences,programs, etc….instead of placing value on things like faith,hope, and compassion and unity. There is more focus on giving “first fruits” and “tithing” than there is on helping the 1 out of 3 people with AIDS in Africa right now, or the man walking down the street with no shoes on. I want to be catalyst to change, not an expert with all of the answers. Christianity is organic and will always change. I don’t want to be left behind in what God is doing.
The thing that is most humbling though is that God is using this Modern Church to do great things. People’s lives are being changed, marriages are being restored, people are being healed of sickness, being loosed from years of depression and bondage, and receiving the gift of eternal salvation.
I believe the church is in dire need of a new breath of life.
I just hope it doesn’t take a Pastor running over a herd of children in his new 7 series BMW on the way to his after church Golf game.
January 21st, 2005 at 4:21 pm
Absolutely Amen.
January 23rd, 2005 at 11:28 am
From my perspective as a short-term PBC student, CBC seemed to be following a pretty simple formula. Not that of biblical church building and evangelism, but rather the economic law of capitalism. Though there are certainly believers in the church and people that genuinely love the Lord, the church itself has become a financial investment. Now instead of infusing the community around it with life by sending out others to plant and to serve, the bloated monolith sends out vans to pick up sinners and shuttle them to the safety of the hill, encouraging them to tithe so the church can continue it’s programs. Promising extra blessing if they give more to fund their dramas designed to scare people into repentance. I met some awesome people at PBC, including my wife and best friends. But in the 6 months that I attended City Bible and heard Pastor Frank speak in PBC chapel, I heard him talk way more about church administration than about Jesus. This is what happens to mega churches. They become money vacuums, and sustaining the church and it’s facilities and staff can take over for the spreading of the gospel. At least, this was my take on it.