Point/Counter Point
Posted on March 21st, 2005 by catalyst into the Uncategorized categoryHere are three comments that I initially missed. I found them interesting. They were written in response to my “Love the sinner; Hate the sin” post.
POINT
Catalyst, I have a hard time believing that you love the members and leaders at CBC, especially with all the personal jokes, attacks and mockery dished at Frank and Doug and whomever else.
And do you hate the sin in your life as much as the sin you see in them? It is ok to point out bs you see going on around you. but isn’t this site generally part of the problem and not part of the soulution? So you’re going on 30,000 but does this “success” satisfy your soul? Just a few thoughts.
-Anonymous #93
COUNTERPOINT
Coming from a similar background as Catalyst and RP, I can fully understand why they think and behave like they do. City Bible could be likened to a cruise ship [i.e. the Titanic] or a freight train in that they are slow to change and slow in reaching their destination.
I prefer the freight train analogy because I feel CBC is on a collision course with our culture and turning around isn’t an option. It is extremely gratifying to know that when the crap hits the fan and the fraud that is City Business Church is exposed for who they really are, there will still be this blog as evidence that someone saw it coming and didn’t fall victim to it. So in response to your question, Anonymous #93, I pose a question to you. Hasn’t the problem for so many years now, been the fact that Christians have neglected to point out the BS that goes on around them?
COUNTER-COUNTER POINT
Sure CBC may be slow to change in reaching our culture, but in some way they are reaching part of our culture, it just that we don’t like that part of the culture. Isn’t the church diverse enough to reach different people in different ways? I know I am playing the devils advocate here, but come on man do you really think that CBC is a fraud? A false church with some truth or a true church with error, or bs. And regarding speaking out about the B.S., there is a right way to do that and if your doing the right thing the wrong way it is still wrong. Whatever is not of love is sin, and we are to speak the truth in love . That is what i guess i am trying to get at.
-Anonymous #93
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March 21st, 2005 at 1:27 pm
RE: POINT
…and you wonder why homosexuals want nothing to do with the church?
You can’t call someone out on sin.
Ever.
Because then they say “And do you hate the sin in your life as much as the sin you see in them?” and it goes back and forth like this forever.
I could list a large number of people who have found help in this website. Not just angry, bitter Morton brothers, but real God fearing people.
RE: COUNTER-COUNTER POINT
I wouldn’t say that CBC is a fraud. But I would say that they are misled and are misleading a number of people, and if everyone continues to sit back and allow this to go on they will continue further down their path of deception.
I don’t say this to be judgmental, but I look at the “fruit” and growth in the lives of many of my friends at CBC and it just isn’t there; furthermore while I attended CBC there was no growth for me.
I truly believe that their teachings do not lead to a relationship with a God that loves you, but to a self-centered, works based religion.
This is why I blog.
March 21st, 2005 at 5:01 pm
All this debating is reminding me of SNL last Saturday. Anyone see it? The opening “Hardball…” spoof on the steroids scandal was hilarious. The crazy senator that yells everything until he gets red was my favorite. I know it’s March Madness right now, but are there any other baseball fans out there that found this amusing?
March 22nd, 2005 at 2:52 am
I just don’t think that CBC should settle for slow change, this is, of course, assuming they’re changing for the better. Although CBC would like to think that it is a predominately upper middle class church, I argue that Jesus didn’t come to earth and tailor His message to people based on whether they were rich or poor. In fact, he spent a good majority of His ministry preaching to and teaching those that were poor and afflicted. He was only forced to address the issues of money and worldly possessions when confronted by wealthy individuals who had an unhealthy lust for mammon. Perhaps CBC could simplify their outreach by returning to the simple yet life-giving message of the Gospel, instead of telling wealthy people what they want to hear and poor people what they need to hear to get wealth.
March 22nd, 2005 at 1:54 pm
I don’t believe that the attitude of CBC is we are better than anyone else. I do know some people who act like they are better than others, it doesn’t matter if it is someone on the street or if it is a fellow CBC’er, they act like they are better than us. How can you judge God’s church for a couple of members that you might not like. How you are treated by one person, should not taint the view you have of the whole church.
CBC as a whole does not differentiate it’s ministry to only one group. Every ministry has someone who had a vision for the ministry and also for the people the ministry would be directed too. I will agree that the majority of ministries are not directed to people on the street. God has given every church different qualities that some people will like and some people will dislike and also location has a lot to do with who will come. It is the same way for one of my buddies church’s, his church is on 2nd and burnside, because of location and the pastor his church meets the needs of many people who are on the streets. This is were my buddy knows he is called.
If you are talking about how all CBC’ers are stuck up rich snobs, then you might want to take a look at “The Well’s” members, I know they aren’t poor street kids, They seem to be doing pretty well for themselves if they are.
PB
March 22nd, 2005 at 4:24 pm
This isn’t (shouldn’t be) about whether people think they are better than everyone else or not. The issue is about what is being preached, what is being taught, and where these teachings lead. It’s not an issue of how individual members act; no one person or church is going to be perfect, but when the leaders of a church are teaching prosperity over the cross you know you’ve got a problem (at least we know you’ve got a problem).
Once again, I write this blog because I spent over 10 years @ City Business running in a circle of Christian religion that led nowhere. I have now found that there is more to church then making money and having powerful “experiences” at conferences. I now have a great, personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and while that may be offensive to some, I am quite comforted by it.
March 22nd, 2005 at 6:00 pm
This post has been removed by the author.
March 22nd, 2005 at 6:26 pm
A couple comments:
1: Exactly, This is why we blog.
2: The use of paragraphs is extremely helpful to the reader.
3: I love the (Shut Up) part. Humor is after all the real reason we blog.
4: How many times have you been told you are just bitter?
March 22nd, 2005 at 6:41 pm
Sorry, no paragraphs, I was in a hurry. Wow, it sure does look like a daunting task reading all that at once.
The link didn’t work so here you go: jeremysodea@msn.com . You’ll just have to copy it down.
Also, UNC does look like the most dominating team in the field right now, but as I have picked Duke to win it all, everyone please pray that J.J. goes for 50 against Mich. St. on Friday.
Alright, I’m out, I’ll keep it short this time.
March 23rd, 2005 at 1:35 pm
[Now in a new-and-improved easier-to-read format]
The main issue I have with CBC is not with a specific leader or group of people. The problem is that nobody I know, from PF on down, models real and honest relationships with each other. I’m not saying that the people there aren’t sincere. I know quite a few people that I respect that still attend CBC. In fact I owe a lot to some of my friends there.
But when you want to get help dealing with stuff that’s going on in your life, then things get interesting. Getting counseling from outside the church is frowned upon, however no leader at CBC that I know has a level of expertise in handling disfunctional families or individuals.
Whenever I tried to go to someone with a problem, they would just smile and say, “yes, but are you praying enough?” or “yes a lot of horrible stuff happened to you, but God is good, am I right?” and so on. No one in leadership actually had a desire to really truly be involved in my life on a meaningful level, something that went past making sure I was attending every week. They wanted to make sure I was in a ministry of some sort, tithing regularly, and doing something with my life, but didn’t want to be real. They want everyone to be successful on the outside, but don’t provide everyone with the tools of true hapiness and security in relationships with others and with Jesus.
I used to think that someday I would be wealthy, and would get frustrated trying so hard to make it happen, because I thought that’s what God called everybody to: a life of material wealth. But that’s missing the whole point (and not at all necessarily true). God just wants us to learn how to be open and vulnerable with others and with Him, and He’ll take care of us. Maybe not like we want, but that’s okay.
There is no picture or model of Christianity that we’re supposed to follow. There’s no formula to be successful, it’s all about following Christ. If our focus is on looking a certain way or having a certain amount of money then all is lost. That is not the point of the gospel.
This, my friend is the gospel of Christ: “Jesus sent His twelve harvest hands [disciples] out with this charge: ‘Don’t begin by traveling to some far off place to convert unbelievers. And don’t try to be dramatic by tackling some public enemy. Go to the lost, confused people right here in the neighborhood… Touch the untouchables… Don’t think you have to put on a fund-raising campaign before you start. You don’t need a lot of equipment. You are the equipment, and all you need to keep that going is three meals a day. Travel light.’” (Matthew 10, The Message)
I’m sorry to have to quote scripture to have to prove my point, but it’s the one thing that CBCers and I have in common, we both believe in the Bible as true above anything else. When I read the new testament and see what Jesus had to say about His kingdom and then when I look at CBC and what the pastors talk about I find huge discrepancies. They say they want to be like the first church in Acts but that was man’s idea also. What we need to be following is Jesus. I encourage everyone to read the new testament for themselves and judge if the fruit of what Jesus says his followers should act like and the fruit of what your spiritual leaders are doing are coming from the same tree.
Anyways, this is a lot longer than I intended, but it could be even longer. I am just being general so that everyone understands that I don’t have a beef with one individual or one aspect of doctrine. The whole system is faulty. I do have countless specific examples that I could relate of things that were said and done to me that were not of God, but I don’t have time to go into that now, and that’s not the point.
The point is to seek out Jesus for yourself, even stop going to church (shut up!) for a time and see if what you have is really genuine, because God is God and can speak to you on His own. Pastors are good and real, but “spiritual covering” is just a term to keep control of you and your tithe. Accountability is necessary, I know. But please, there’s so much more to life and God than tithing and being successful and meeting your spouse at PBC and getting married in the sanctuary and working your way up the leadership ladder from cell leaders to lay pastors and so on.
Jesus doesn’t care about any of that. He wants your heart, people. The desire for acceptance and recognition and success are all valid, but we’ve made an idol of church. It just isn’t necessary to being a Christian. (gasp!) I totally agree with the concept, I just mean that nothing is necessary apart from God. So take some time for your own relationship with God, it will be the most amazing thing you’ve ever done. Forget trying to please some pastor by coming every week and volunteering for their newest program, and talk to Jesus.
You might just find yourself actually caring about people that don’t know Him, instead of stuck inside the church. Heaven forbid, you might end up downtown under the Burnside bridge talking to street kids instead of going to Mexico on a missions trip. It’s a lot less glamorous than we want, and you probably won’t have a pastor telling you “good job” for it, but it will be so much more fulfilling. Store up treasures in heaven people, not here on earth.
Well I’m rambling on and on so I’d better call it a day. If anyone wants to talk to me feel free to email me. (click on my profile)