Hank 13:1-13 “The Tithe Chapter”
1 If I speak the languages of men and of angels, but do not tithe, I am a sounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so that I can move mountains, but do not tithe, I am nothing. 3 And if I donate all my goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body to be burned, but do not tithe to the church, I gain nothing.
4 Tithe is patient; tithe is kind. Tithe does not envy; is not boastful; is not conceited; 5 does not act improperly; is not selfish; is not provoked; does not keep a record of wrongs; 6 finds no joy in unrighteousness, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Tithe never ends. ..13 Now these three remain: faith, hope, and tithe. But the greatest of these is tithe
I have a version:
1 If I sing every week in the choir, but do not tithe, I am a sounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I am on the prayer team, and serve as a cell leader and if I work with the ethnic groups, so I can serve all kinds of people, but do not tithe, I am nothing. 3 And if I donate all my goods to feed the poor, and if I take classes at PBC, but give not unto the church, I gain nothing.
4 Tithe is faithful; tithe is required. Tithe does not think for itself;… tithe finds no joy in aging carpet, but rejoices in plasma screen tv’s .
8 Tithe never ends. ..13 Now these three remain: offering, saints relief, and tithe. But the greatest of these is tithe.
I do enjoy a good spot of rhetoric on a three-day weekend, I must say…..
RP’s version must be the New Revised Standard…and I appreciate the substitution of “speak with the tongues of men and of angels” with “sing every week in the choir” — it appeals to me on a professional level [wink!].
Cat’s original…the substitution of “tithe” for “love”…it seems that another great philosopher/rhetorician of our time has spoken on this topic (in a non-satiric way)
“I’ll buy you a diamond ring, my friend
If it makes you feel all right
I’ll get you anything, my friend
If it makes you feel all right
I don’t care too much for money
Money can’t buy me love”
This must be obvious by now, but I’m with you all the way. Consider an excerpt from I John 4:8 in the traditional rendering:
God is Love
Now, in an algebraic operation set up for us by the Gospel of Hank wherein “love” is substituted for “tithe”……oopsie!
RP, you nailed it. You demonstrated so clearly the place that the tithe has in this church.
People have said, “It’s only a minor disagreement. The only important thing is faith in Jesus and His atonement.”
But just try to be a part of CBC with just your faith in Jesus. Even if you have 4 years of PBC behind you, you can’t be an elder, a lay pastor, a leader of any kind, sing, play an instrument, teach kids, pray for people, vacuum the green carpet or make phone calls UNLESS you tithe.
…to THEM with your recordable accounting #.
hey RP, i think your addition is a stroke of brilliance but i’m wondering, what about (as was part of the original version) “and though i give my body to be burned but have not tithe, i am nothing?” i was thinking that perhaps in hank’s equation of the value of people/love that tithe is much more important than love. if we equate this with “i give my body to be burned but have not tithe, i am nothing,” i guess we can safely say that the sacrifice of jesus was meaningless except for providing a reason for passing the offering bucket. unless you (meaning the CBC/Well folk) don’t believe he “gave his body to be burned.”
a note to jiminy,
i think your modus ponens reduction is truly insightful. and please be careful about mere references to “rhetoric.” we can honestly say that everything that proceeds out of the mouth of hank is mere rhetoric, but there are folks out there who study the real thing for a living, and they are incessantly disgusted by the hank-types.
one more thing, this wonderful verse does not end with “tithe never fails” but rather has more:
tithe never fails. and whether there is prophecy it will fail, and whether there are tongues, they will cease, and whether there is knowledge (god forbid) it will vanish away,for we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when that which is tithe has come, then that which is not tithe will be done away. guess that means those who don’t tithe or don’t give enough (including their stupid tracking number label) will be done away. wow, isn’t tithe wonderful? who doesn’t want to be done away with? oh pick me, pick me!!!!
I think the band Tool can sum up what Hankie is with their song “Eulogy”
He had alot to say.
He had alot of nothing to say.
(We’ll miss him. 2x)
He had alot to say.
He had alot of nothing to say.
(We’ll miss him. 2x)
(We’re gonna miss him. 2x)
So loooooong!
We wish you well.
You told us how you weren’t afraid to die.
Well so looooooong.
Don’t cryyyyy.
Or feel too down.
Not all martyrs see divinity.
But at least you tried.
Standing above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud.
(We’ll miss him. 2x)
Ranting and pointing his finger
at everything but his heart.
(We’ll miss him. 2x)
(We’re gonna miss him. 2x)
No wayyyyyy
to recall
what it was that you had said to me,
like I care at alll.
But he was sooo louuud.
You sure could yell.
You took a stand on every little thing
and soooo louuuuuuuuud.
You, could be, the one, who saves, me from, my own, existence.
{indistinct}
Standing above the crowd,
he had a voice that was strong and loud
and I swallowed his facade cuz I’m so eager to identify
with someone above the ground,
someone who seemed to feel the same,
someone prepared to lead the way,
with someone who would die for me.
Will you?
Will you now?
Would you die for me?
Don’t you f*@#@% lie.
(Don’t you step out of line! 3x)
Don’t you f&%$#* lie.
You’ve claimed all this time
that you would die for me.
Why then are you so surprised
when hear your own eulogy?
(He had alot to say.
He had alot of nothing to say. 2x)
Coome down.
Get off your f&%$#@ cross.
We need the f**&^% space
to nail the next fool martyr!
To ascend you must die!
You must be crucified
for your sins and your lies!
Goodbyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyye!
Those lyrics are weird, and left me saying, “huh????” Your point?
Here IS something worthy:
WORD FOR THE WEEK 29 May 2005
Christian Fellowship Centre,
40 Da Costa Square, Bangalore 560 084, India
http://www.poonen.org/zac
http://www.cfcindia.com
GOD LOVES A CHEERFUL GIVER
Zac Poonen
There were many under the old covenant who came to an exceptionally God-fearing life. One cannot imagine Elijah behaving in an improper way with the opposite sex or John the Baptist running after money or Moses seeking the honour of the world. So the mere fact that we have been freed from such matters does not mean that we have entered into New Covenant.
If a weekly paper on the Scriptures had been published in old covenant times, many good things would have been found in such a paper. But the underlying note in it would have been, “Thou shalt …” and “Thou shalt not…”
Under the new covenant it is different. It is not just that the standard is higher. The spirit is also different.
Consider the words of Jesus in Matthew 5,6 and 7. The old covenant had commanded “Thou shalt not kill… Thou shalt not commit adultery…” etc. But when Jesus
spoke about the spirit behind these commandments in Matthew 5:21,22,27,28, he did not use the words “Thou shalt not..”, but merely explained that in the Kingdom of God, anger was equivalent to murder and sexually dirty thoughts were equivalent to adultery. It is important to note this difference in spirit.
Under the old covenant, it was compulsory to give 10% of one’s income to God. But under the new covenant, there is no command indicating what percentage is to
be given to God. On the other hand, it says, “Let each one do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver” (2 Cor 9:7). This is to be the spirit of obedience under the new covenant, to all of God’s commandments: NOT UNDER COMPULSION BUT CHEERFULLY.
Under the new covenant, the spirit in which we obey is what God values – not just the obedience. There is difference between a slave who does what he is
commanded, because he has no choice and a grown-up son who obeys his father cheerfully out of love. Galatians 4:7 states that, that is the difference between the old and the new covenants. Employees will work in an office, for 8 hours a day for a salary. A son however, will work in his father’s office, if necessary for 16 hours a day, without any pay. God is looking for SONS now, not for employees (servant). The old covenant has been abolished (Heb 8:13).
It is possible, for people to keep the new covenant commandments in the spirit of the old covenant. Such people usually develop into new covenant Pharisees. They can then hinder the building of the church, for their soulish zeal can come forth with many “Thou shalt”s that they seek to impose on others to conform to the outward form in the church.
a note to spade,
thanks for your lyrics, i enjoyed them thoroughly.
a note to anonymous,
i disagree about your article as being something worthy of reading. spade’s lyrics do reach to the heart of the problem of the apotheosized (there’s a fun word to look up on your concordance) hank. what the lyrics do say, is that big time leaders often lie to others, to themselves, to their own values, and eventually pay for their lies and their deceit. in many ways, spade’s lyrics mark a foreshadowing of things to come, as people can only be lied to for so long before they start question the veracity of the speaker (hank). and the liar can only lie to him/herself for so long before it begins to erode the soul.
so i’m wondering what was so difficult about spade’s lyrics, they seem quite straightforward to me. please note, the name of the song is “eulogy” a necessary and elemental part of its meaning and significance.
and by the way, a blog is a for forum open deliberation and communication, it should not be a place for one-up-man-ship. spade made his/her contribution because he/she thought it seemed appropriate and valuable (and i agree). it does no one any good to turn around and say “my article’s better than your song lyrics!” most of us got over that mentality in 2nd grade.
I have to take issue with olie’s twin’s use of “CBC/the Well” because those two churches have different guts and certainly approach giving differently. The Well doesn’t even use the term “tithe;” it believes in and preaches NT giving (cheerful, proportionate, non-formulaic, etc.). Staff and leaders aren’t required to give in order to serve. Giving isn’t the central or largest semon theme. There’s really no comparison.
Given olie’s twin’s use of “/” I’m thinking he knows little about the Well. Yes, I go to the Well (duh). I’m not “offended,” just shocked that anyone would use a “/” between the two church names, which implies they are essentially synonymous. After years in both CBC & the Well, it’s obvious those two churches are completely different paradigms.
Well first I would like to extend a thank you to Olie’s twin, and that I am glad you liked the lyrics.
But as for the Anonymous who did not understand Maynard (the lead singer and writer of Tool), the lyrics are basically talking about a false prophet. I happen to consider Hankie boy to be a false prophet, which is why I considered the lyrics from “Eulogy” to be apropos. Hankie has a “lot of nothing to say” he “waves and points his finger at everything but his own heart.” He clearly does not see divinity (unless it is on a plasma screeen).
I could go on, but I hope you get the picture. Mr. Hankie (the CBC leader, not the Christmas poo) is a false prophet, but I can’t really say that I will miss him when he is gone.
to anonymous,
about your distinction between the well and cbc. my understanding and knowledge of the well is only second hand, and from people i know who attend the well, my understanding was has led me to believe that they are synonymous in the tithe factor. but, i don’t have first hand knowledge of it so you may be right.
To spade: I am continually appreciative of not only your vim and cleverness, but also of your insight. From one kind of equation to another, it seems: the three-word “God is Love/tithe” equation to the equation of the metaphorical false prophet and our own Mr. Hanky. I think it was Augustine who said “He who sings prays twice,” and I doubt I’d be a musician if I didn’t believe that a sung lyric somehow takes on a unique power, one that transcends the spoken/written word alone. So, it is indeed my joy to see someone else engaging in one of my favorite forms of critical discourse: lyrical. Let the music keep you thinking, and let the thinking keep you listening.
To olie’s twin: I certainly meant no disrespect by my invocation of the r-word. And, because I’ve been called onto the carpet for my use of this word more than once, I’ve taken it upon myself to visit the Oxford English Dictionary in order to make sure I know what I’m talking about. This is what they’ve got:
1. a. The art of using language so
as to persuade or influence
others; the body of rules to
be observed by a speaker or
writer in order that he may
express himself with
eloquence.
b. fig. or with personification.
c. A treatise on, or ‘body’ of,
rhetoric.
d. The top class or the second
class (from the top) in
certain English Roman
Catholic schools and
colleges. So “to make
one’s rhetoric.”
2. a. Elegance or eloquence of
language; eloquent speech or
writing. Obs.
b. Speech or writing expressed in
terms calculated to persuade;
hence (often in depreciatory
sense), language characterized
by artificial or ostentatious
expression.
c. pl. Elegant expressions;
rhetorical flourishes. Also,
rhetorical terms.
d. in ironical or jocular use.
I think I meant definitions 2b and 2d in reference to the theoretical Hank, and 1a in reference to catalyst and RP, “discoverers” of Hank’s manuscripts.
As for Anonymous/Zac Poonen’s contribution: I believe I touched upon the notion of love as a driving force, and possibly the only driving force worth keeping around. The internal mandate is the only true master. There’s really no good in forcing anyone to do anything in the long run. So, of course, the “Old Covenant” (as we call it in Christian parlance) doesn’t do us any good. As far as I can tell, this is what Jesus was saying: love motivates us to transcend. The point was never: “Your rules aren’t strict enough….I’ll show you slackers the true meaning of covenant.” No one came down from heaven that we might have a plasma screen TV or a Faith Harvest campaign or a proper code of behavior. However, Christians believe that Jesus came that we might have life. All of us. Not just the affluent westerners who have the luxury of quibbling over “CBC/The Well” and constructing edifices for us to refine and propogate our specific pet doctrines.
The problem with CBC’s vision has never been that it’s too large.
The problem is that it’s too small.
It’s too prejudiced.
Tithe doesn’t mean a damn thing to people who have nothing.
However, love means something (though not the same thing) to everyone.
It’s the only thing that can.
Do you suppose City Bible would mind if we graffitti’d “Tithe doesn’t mean a damn thing to people who have nothing” over the big dome??? That is the absolute heart of the matter to me. As I ponder the plight of a Sudanese mother with a hungry infant and no milk for him/her to suckle, it seems to be a vivid example of how wrong our affluent, Western concept of Christianity is. And I think you could add in “prosperity” and “success” along side of “tithe”. Shame on us for making the baby Jesus cry!
This is a family site ok, nobody’s suckling anything.
Suckling can only happen if there’s a family. Suckling happens, and my family talks about it. Don’t be so stiff.
This was in 5/28-29 bulletin. I find it interesting that they have found scriptures to support their “marks of grace” for everything but point 11 (also point 8, but not as poignant). Does that mean they are not Biblical with their 3 campuses???
Twelve Grace Marks of CBC
Pastor Frank Damazio
Several weeks ago, we ministered on celebrating the marks of God’s
grace. The unique marks of God’s grace on City Bible Church can be
seen in our corporate personality, culture and destiny. Listed below
are the Twelve Identifiable Grace Marks on City Bible Church:
1. We Are a Prayer, Intercession and Presence-Driven Church.
Ezekiel 22:30, 1 Timothy 2:1, Isaiah 56:7
2. We Are a “Believing for Miracles Today†Church.
Hebrews 13:8, 1 Corinthians 2:9, Luke 7:16, Hebrews 2:4
3. We Are a “God is Able to Do the Impossible†Church.
Mark 9:23, Matthew 19:26, Luke 1:37, Ephesians 3:20
4. We Are a “Raising the Standard†Church.
Isaiah 59:19
5. We Are a “No Roof, No Walls, Reach All People†Church.
John 6:5, Joel 3:14, 1 Timothy 2:4-6, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19
6. We Are a “Community-Building, Every Person Matters†Church.
Acts 2:42-47
7. We Are a “Liberal Giving, Expecting Supernatural Provisionâ€
Church.
Exodus 36:6-7, 1 Chronicles 29:3, Philippians 4:19, Psalms 84:11
8. We Are a Multiethnic, Multicultural Church.
9. We Are a “World-Loving, Touch the Nations†Church.
Acts 1:8, Revelation 5:9, Matthew 28:19-20
10. We Are a “Make Room for the Vision†Church.
Joshua 17:14-18, Hebrew 11:1
11. We Are a “One Congregation, Multiple Locations†Church.
12. We Are a “Forward-Moving into Our Future†Church.
Proverbs 29:18, Exodus 14:15-16
You really should listen to that sermon…
Here is what Frank said in regard to point #7:
“That’s why we go so far to making the services feel a little homely. It doesn’t just happen accidentally. The personality that I have or the leaders have or even the very way we dress.
We’ve changed from looking like a Nordstrom’s church to looking like whatever kind we are.â€
I have an Entr site/blog. It pretty much covers making large amounts of money on the web.
Come and check it out if you get time
Hello, just visited your bible blog, I also have a bible related website, it’s about some books which is helpful to understand the God’s Words
Nice blog, keep up the good work!
I have a site to wedding announcement.
It’s a free information site on wedding announcement.
You should check it out if you have the time
I enjoyed you blog about electrical energy. I also have a site about electrical energy which makes me appreciate this one even more! Keep up the good work!
Hi, Thanks for your interesting blog. Keep up the great work! I also have a site & blog about plasma television, please feel free to visit.
When I used to atten CBC, I also had major issues with the “you are not allowed to use the giftings God gave you unless you give 10% of the money God gave you philosophy” So to rebel, I would give my money to people who needed it, saved my receipts and turned them in every week…..I don’t believe in being told where to give my money and most of the time, it was more than 10%….I have to say, it wasn’t received very well.