LT in the House
Posted on June 26th, 2005 by catalyst into the Uncategorized categorySince this blog spent several days discussing former PBC professors Larry Taylor and Ken Ross, I felt obligated to post this comment by Larry Taylor.
Truth is a precious possession and hard to come by, either in the church or out of it. Some friends and former students urged me to check out your blogger site recently when my friend, Ken Ross, and I were the topic of conversation. I expected to see some misinformation, but mostly the dialogue seemed earnest and many of the participants seemed genuinely interested in the truth.
From what little I have seen of this site I cannot imagine that it would turn away a non-believer since most people already hold presuppositions about the church. It is truth that most people want, deep in their lonely souls. In spite of the criticisms, obvious biases and occasional misinformation, I want to applaud you, the younger generation, for your hospitality to honest dialogue.
Just remember that eventually you will need to come up with some answers as well as criticisms too. Meanwhile, thanks for providing a forum for people to honestly divulge their thoughts and feelings. Honesty without malice never hurt the cause of Christ, and people who live honestly have little to hide.
Blessings.
-LT
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June 27th, 2005 at 7:13 am
LT said, “Just remember that eventually you will need to come up with some answers as well as criticisms too”
I have come up with an answer. “Stop running your church like a corporation and start running it like a ministry.”
Of course that’s a simple, non religious answer that doesn’t reference the Bible… so of course, I don’t expect any true religious scholar to take it seriously.
June 27th, 2005 at 9:15 am
LT,
Thanks for your honest comments.
We have quite a few readers from PBC, and because neither Justin nor I ever went to PBC we didn’t know how people would react to the news about you and Ken. It was nice to see how many people wrote in their support of you both and it appears that you were 2 of the favorite teachers up there.
We have been called “bitter” by so many people that it is refreshing to hear another perspective; of course that probably just puts you right in the “bitter” camp along with the rest of us. Our good friend Anonymous commented that “Maybe you shouldn’t work for a CHURCH school if you don’t support the CHURCH.” While I couldn’t say whether or not you supported CBC, I agree with that statement completely, and maybe a few others should follow in your footsteps (rumor has it that someone already has).
Anyway, you clearly had a huge impact on a number of people and that is something they can’t take away from you. I hope that in the end of it all this turns out to be more of a blessing for you than anything else. I’m sure you’ll find another place where God can use you.
-Johnpaul
June 27th, 2005 at 11:45 am
LT,
Good to see your post. I’m really glad that you’ve seen what people have said and that you know how much respect your larger community has for you. We’re wishing you all the best.
However, as for coming up with answers….well, I don’t know about that. It’s not even really about criticisms. It’s about not embracing finished product status prematurely. The face of the church will always, always need to change, because the people in it are always changing. Answers (well, at least final answers in the Regis Philbin sense) are dangerous, it seems to me. Questions may be equally dangerous, but oh-so-necessary to continued faith, continued hope, continued love. All three of these “abiding” things imply and even demand motion, and therefore change. No one has a corner on the market, no one has it all figured out. We all have need to move forward with our senses and our spirits open.
As you said, we all want truth in our lonely hearts. Allow me to wish you well as you (and all of us) continue to search for it.
June 27th, 2005 at 1:34 pm
“Stop running your church like a corporation and start running it like a ministry.”
What Catalyst means by this is:
1. The pastor’s car should break down at least once a week.
2. The church should smell like mildew.
3. Coffee served–if any–should be Folgers crystals.
4. The congregants’ teenage children should be encouraged to party like it’s 1999 because it teaches them to be relevant.
5. The church passes a “complaint box” during every service, while tithes–if any–can be dropped into a dusty slot in the office door.
6. Salvation is the only suggested requirement for church employment, but may be overlooked if the family is in a bind.
7. Tithing is not allowed because it may lead to greater sins, such as prosperity.
8. Sermon topics should be democratically determined by the contributors of an online blog, which should include a closet Buddhist, a drunk, a desperate housewife, a Party Poker addict and a homosexual.
9. Each sermon will make an equal number of references to the Bible, the Alcoholics Anonymous handbook, City Bible Watch and Willamette Week.
10. Speaking tongues is strictly prohibited unless it comes out smelling like Long Island iced tea.
June 27th, 2005 at 1:41 pm
Am I the homosexual or the drunk?
June 27th, 2005 at 1:44 pm
Samuel John Klein should be able to answer that question accurately.
June 27th, 2005 at 1:52 pm
One more question Cattle List:
Is your other name Reformed Pope?
June 27th, 2005 at 1:57 pm
Not me. I save bitter comments like that for family gatherings.
I’m not sure who’s who exactly, but I think it’s time for another matching game.
June 27th, 2005 at 2:43 pm
“Stop running your church like a corporation and start running it like a ministry.”
What Cattle List (I’m sorry bloggers that you have to be subjected to someone who finds that humorous)is actually trying to say is.
1. Tithing is the Christian way to the American Dream (heaven) and if you disagree then you must be a homosexual.
I’m glad that he’s paying attention though. Good job Cattle boy, keep this up and they’ll have to promote you to district pastor, they’ll just have to.
June 27th, 2005 at 3:50 pm
i think it’s really great that LT shared his feelings and thoughts on this whole matter with the blog community. to address the issue of “don’t work for a church that does things you don’t believe in” i think it’s a lot more complext than that. as stated by many others, a lot of PBC teachers taught there not for CBC political reasons but rather BECAUSE THEY CARE FOR THE STUDENTS. it’s as simple as that.
to address the issue of others acting in a way that shows they disagree with the political struggles of CBC, i know firsthand of one teacher who has resigned and i’m sure there are plenty to follow suit. they’re losing valuable, quality people and it’s despicable. why did he resign? he was abhorred by the way they treated KR and LT and was disgusted by how Hank came in and took over everything (folks, perhaps you could reference your history books on how the Moors rapidly took over large parts of western Europe in the late 1400s, it’s the same kind of situation, a powerful guy comes in and wipes out everyone who disagrees with his ideas. please note, there are many parallels i could draw about political takeovers but i reference this one specifically because it was a takeover of religion and ideology which is exactly what Hank is all about)
so what we’re left with in the PBC scene is people who have taught there out of principle and those who have abandoned ship out of principle. to those who critcize people who “work for a church you don’t agree with” there’s a lot more to it. these people worked for, loved, sacrificed, cried over, and pored over their jobs out of love and compassion — not out of church political agendas. they should be admired, revered, and respected, not poked at by people who clearly don’t have a solid understanding about the relationships between those fired (KR and LT) and also those who resigned and the political agenda responsible for this unfortunate and ugly turn of events.
June 27th, 2005 at 4:16 pm
I believe Ollie’s Twin means the Moops took over.
“I’m sorry the card says Moops.”
June 27th, 2005 at 6:50 pm
Congrats ‘cattle list’ on insulting Cat without using the word “bitter”. And way to go on the 10-point list, just like PF taught you to make.
But I think you might have been a little confused on one point… that’s ‘metrosexual’ to you, sir.
June 27th, 2005 at 7:02 pm
so RP, what exactly do you mean by the Moops? perhaps that’s a club at CBC or something — otherwise, i don’t get your joke. if you’re questioning my knowledge of world history (i.e. The Moors and the rapid spread of Islam in the 1490s halted by King Ferdinand), give Mrs. Coleman a call, i know without a doubt she’ll have my back!
June 27th, 2005 at 7:09 pm
I believe it’s a Seinfeld quote.
June 27th, 2005 at 8:52 pm
So this closet Buddhist, a drunk, a desperate housewife, party poker addict and a homosexual walk into a bar, right… and the bartender goes:
[someone please finish this joke for me]
June 27th, 2005 at 10:18 pm
…keep this up and they’ll have to promote you to district pastor, they’ll just have to.
Actually, I go to church in Vancouver, but I do visit CBC on occasion. Thanks, though, I’d love the job if CBC offered it.
June 28th, 2005 at 8:29 am
Actually I like absolute poker.
June 28th, 2005 at 10:46 am
Cattle list,
I think what catalyst meant when he said that CBC should be run like a ministry and not a corporation is that they should put Jesus first.
June 28th, 2005 at 2:48 pm
DONALD: OK, HISTORY. THIS IS FOR THE GAME. HOW YA DOIN’ OVER THERE? NOT TOO GOOD!
GEORGE: All right BB. Let’s just play… Who invaded Spain in the 8th century?
DONALD: THAT’S A JOKE. THE MOORS.
GEORGE: Oh, Noooo, I’m so sorry. It’s the MOOPS. The correct answer is, The MOOPS.
DONALD: MOOPS? LET ME SEE THAT. THAT’S NOT MOOPS YOU JERK, IT’S MOORS. IT’S A MISPRINT.
GEORGE: I’m sorry the card says MOOPS.
DONALD: IT DOESN’T MATTER. I’S THE MOORS. THERE’S NO MOOPS.
GEORGE: It’s MOOPS.
June 30th, 2005 at 4:36 pm
I don’t really check in here as often as I should:
In repsonse to satire by “Cattle List”, catalyst said:
Am I the homosexual or the drunk?
And “Cattle List” glibly replied:
Samuel John Klein should be able to answer that question accurately.
And I query:
Why?
(I don’t usually rise to the bait, but I’ve just got to know the answer to that).
July 1st, 2005 at 6:57 am
I didn’t want to respond for you, SJK. But I think Cattle List is implying you are gay. I think. Or an alcoholic, I suppose, then that would make me gay. but whatever… either way, CL is trying to insult you and me…
That doesn’t bother me though. What bothers me is that CL equates ministry to poverty. I sincerely hope CL never gets involved in any church or ministry, since his heart is clearly in the wrong place.
July 1st, 2005 at 8:03 am
Klein’s not gay…he’s Catholic.
A quick check of my CBC handbook titled “Who Burns First”…searching…
let’s see, ah yes, here we are:
1. Irreverent Bloggers
2. Gay’s (w/aids)
3. Catholics
So, it’s gay’s before Catholics, but its real close. (Sorry Catalyst there’s no hope for us),
July 1st, 2005 at 10:26 am
Wow….
Thanks, RP….I’ve been wondering for years about the hierarchy, but they won’t give the super-secret manual to crickets….
Where do feminists fall in the sequence of burning?
:)
July 1st, 2005 at 11:51 am
Ok here’s your top ten most likely to burn from “Who Burns First”:
1. Irreverent Bloggers
2. Gay’s (w/aids)
3. Catholics
4. The Poor
5. Aaron Tuck
6. People who drink alcohol in public places.
7. Non-Gay’s who don’t hate homosexuals
8. Feminists
9. Those who voted NO on Measure 36
10. Democrats
July 1st, 2005 at 12:29 pm
Some people seem to have trouble separating truth from fiction so I’m going to help you all out on this one.
I made up the “Who Burns First” list.
Of course if CBC had a list…
July 1st, 2005 at 12:55 pm
I just want to clarify. I’m pretty sure putting (w/Aids) after Gay is redundant.
All gays have aids. I know. Its in the Bible.
July 1st, 2005 at 1:17 pm
Just a point of clarification…
What happens if you fall into more than one category? Do you just burn with the group that falls first on the list, or is there some kind of accelerated priority for multiple offenders…like a “three strikes” kind of model?
Also, what constitutes “drinking in public places”? Do bars count, or are we talking about stumbling around on the streets? I’m just trying to schedule general incineration accurately.
Oh, and I’m now wondering where teen mothers go on the list. Or, is teen parenthood at CBC now completely attributed to a “generational curse” (as they were discussing back in the late 90’s) and dealt with using prayer tunnels and such?
Thanks, RP and catalyst, for your brilliant research and never-fail scholarly commitment to the details.
Who was saying that this blog isn’t funny?
July 1st, 2005 at 1:32 pm
I can’t believe I forgot pregnant teens.
Clearly I’m going to have to revise their list.
July 1st, 2005 at 7:15 pm
I didn’t want to respond for you, SJK. But I think Cattle List is implying you are gay. I think. Or an alcoholic, I suppose
No worries, Catalyst. I was just trying to find out exactly Cattle List meant by saying something presumptive about someone it’s never ever met.
If I have a choice, I’d specify alcoholic. I likes me some rum.
Altho, being a Catholic probably trumps being gay or being alcoholic.
FWIW, I’ve been married quite a while, and know some other marrieds, I just don’t get why all the anxousness. Gay sex, straight sex, it don’t matter…after enough years married, no sex.
either way, CL is trying to insult you and me…
Oh. How very droll.
It should try harder, altho, we can all see it’s already pretty trying as it is.
July 1st, 2005 at 8:35 pm
I have never, in the history of the blog, read such a epoc burn. Cattle List (who at first I thought was Pastor Doug, cause I think he’s freaking hilarious and genius when it comes to telling it like it is) has got me and the rest of us ’suppressed blessed’ rolling on the ground laughing as you nerds scramble to regain composure and post a half-decent rebuttle.
Cattle List ripped this whole thing a new one.
My over-active imagination gave me two tickets to a miniature replay of the “FAB FIVE” reading the brilliant post and running about the compound, spilling their drinks all over the purple leather love seat and statue of buddha as they shout out choice Scottish phrases in confusion and anger.
I’m gonna print this baby off and post it all over PBC campus.
blessings (financially, of course)
July 2nd, 2005 at 9:58 am
“financialblessings”:
I have never, in the history of the blog, read such a epoc burn. Cattle List (who at first I thought was Pastor Doug, cause I think he’s freaking hilarious and genius when it comes to telling it like it is) has got me and the rest of us ’suppressed blessed’ rolling on the ground laughing as you nerds scramble to regain composure and post a half-decent rebuttle.
No, you’ve missed it. What you were actually looking at was a bunch of people who enjoy chatting about spirituality and the Bible and the state of modern Christian religion in American mercilessly mock a poster who made clumsy, inaccurate, and straw-man-like comments about them.
And called me out by name with an offhand comment that still defies meaning.
But you’ll see things the way you want to, and that’s cool. But you’d still be wrong.
“financialblessings”, further:
My over-active imagination gave me two tickets to a miniature replay of the “FAB FIVE” reading the brilliant post and running about the compound, spilling their drinks all over the purple leather love seat and statue of buddha as they shout out choice Scottish phrases in confusion and anger.
Um, okay. Whatever that means. You have a much funner internal life than I do, that much is sure.
“financialblessings”, one last time:
I’m gonna print this baby off and post it all over PBC campus.
Okay. It’s a freeish country. And its your ink cartridges you’re blowing, so, hey.
July 3rd, 2005 at 4:09 pm
SJK,
Bravo….even though I’m pretty sure what you wrote is a good rebuttal, not the “rebuttle” financialblessings was talking about.
Ah, well, you win some, you lose some.
As for financialblessings….
No, Cattle List’s post wasn’t really that clever. Why? Because all it does is give a rundown of the phobias given voice in the Prosperity Doctrine. Somehow, churches that preach this so-called doctrine are stuck in a post-Great Depression mindset of privation. They think that’s what they’re fighting, but it’s only what they’re proving they’re afraid of. There are a lot worse fates in this world than being doomed to a life of mediocre coffee, temperamental cars, and [gasp] uncovering truths from someplace outside the King James Version. Not to mention the possibility of having people in the congregation who aren’t all just the same — such as the said Buddhist and homosexual. Jesus evidently wasn’t afraid of tax collectors and sinners or the social stigmas associated with keeping their company, so why should we be bothered by the presence of a practitioner of a compassion-based philosophy or someone who falls in love with people of the same sex he/she is?
What I’m saying is that Cattle List’s list doesn’t give me any information I didn’t already have. I know the Prosperity Doctrine isn’t based on the gospel. It’s based on consumerism and fear…and frankly, I already know I’m not interested in any of that.
July 5th, 2005 at 6:37 pm
“but it’s only what they’re proving they’re afraid of.”
“Jesus evidently wasn’t afraid of tax collectors and sinners or the social stigmas associated with keeping their company, so why should we be bothered by the presence of a practitioner of a compassion-based philosophy or someone who falls in love with people of the same sex he/she is?”
“I know the Prosperity Doctrine isn’t based on the gospel. It’s based on consumerism and fear.”
I had to point out the grammatical error because of your obvious immaculate attention to detail and your eagerness to point out my oversights.
Nobody said anything about not hanging out with homosexuals. Cattle List was just bringing to light the slant carnality brings to any ‘philosophical’ conclusion. You went all female on everyone here and typed everything you ‘thought’, or better yet, ‘felt’ CL was ‘insinuating’ in his brilliant lyrical effigy.
You have to be a female. You type way to much serious crap. The lack of sarcasm is typically feline.
Oh boy am I ever glad you know all about the Prosperity Doctrine. I’m personally not advocating it, but I have STUDIED it, and I’m gonna have to let you down and say, YOU’RE WAY OFF. How could somebody half-educated like yourself make a both ignorant and intellectually-belittling statement, and ever open their mouth again on this blog. This isn’t a ninth grade opinion essay challenge, this is supposedly a critique, an online debate, at times overwhelmingly funny (on both sides) poke and jeer, and definitely not amateur night. You need to go get Massively Well Read like the boys that run this site. I have to admit that they have an idea about what they’re talking about.
Now go cry yourself to sleep on your girlfriend’s shoulder.
Blessings, (financially, of course)
July 5th, 2005 at 9:03 pm
“The lack of sarcasm is typically feline.”
Ok, so jiminy is a cat now?
“This isn’t a ninth grade opinion essay challenge, this is supposedly a critique, an online debate…”
Well than perhaps you can do more than mindlessly throw insults around. I fail to see any evidence you offered for your points. All you did was engage in ad hominem attacks. And you call jiminy a ninth grader?
Come now Financialblessings. If you are going to accuse someone of using flawed logic, you really should not contradict yourself by engaging in such fallacies yourself.
Many Blessings, (in Spades, of course)
July 6th, 2005 at 12:04 am
FB, I’ll have you know that my feline is very sarcastic. And please stop setting us up for obvious replies to your insults.
“You have to be a female. You type way to much serious crap.”
Well, I believe you just typed as much as Jiminy.
“How could somebody half-educated like yourself…”
You’re the one that used “to” instead of “too” and spelled “rebuttal” as “rebuttle”, just to name a couple oversights.
“This isn’t a ninth grade opinion essay challenge…”
Well then don’t start one.
“Now go cry yourself to sleep on your girlfriend’s shoulder.”
Yeah, well you wish you even had a girlfriend!!
Yes, it was me who was frustrated at all the insulting and name-calling going on around here. But please be aware that this is all in good fun. I would love to continue a serious discussion if others are open and willing to facilitate the aforementioned discussion.
July 6th, 2005 at 1:22 pm
Spade and Jeremy,
Y’all are the best.
financialblessings,
Whatever, dude. The poke at your spelling was over the top, I admit….however, I wouldn’t go after you for things like that if you weren’t speaking the language of intellectual masturbation and pretense. I’ve developed a rather nasty allergy to that sort of thing….too much time hanging around the annoying variety of grad students who enjoy the verbalized sounds of their own confusion.
I don’t think you understood my meaning (and I looked for said grammatical error and didn’t find it…please enlighten me). What I did wasn’t “female”….unless you think only people without Y chromosomes can carry an argument to its logical end and then comment on why it doesn’t work.
Exclusion doesn’t work, and it doesn’t have anything to do with the supposed ill effects of “carnality” or the way Jesus lived. Prosperity isn’t the gospel. Exclusion and prosperity-as-gospel are based on ignorance and fear. It doesn’t matter whether or not you’ve chosen to explore those doctrines in that way, and it doesn’t matter whether or not Cattle List meant it in that way. The fact is that exclusion and the prosperity gospel have their roots in ugly things and not in how Jesus lived. If you’re interested in making an edifice out of human psychological problems, or the traditional ways that we’ve dealt with people different from us, or our W.A.S.P.-inspired fear of poverty, go for it….but don’t call it Christianity.
And, may I say that it’s awfully telling for you to automatically assume that anyone who disagrees with you is uneducated….particularly since you idolized Doug Lasit as a “freaking genius” in a previous post, and he has never obtained a degree from an accredited institution of higher learning. I’m not assaulting you or him….merely pointing out that it gives me pause about your criteria for what “educated” means.
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