Oh FB…FB… Where are you?
Posted on July 14th, 2005 by Reformed Pope into the Uncategorized categoryIt’s the comments that keep bringing me back.
I would like to discuss a comment that was posted after the wonderful song I am an A… Let’s recap the song and then I’ll give you the comment.
I am an A.
I am an A-S
I am an A-S-S-K-I-S-S-E-R
And I will T-I-T-H-E to my home church C-B-C
Or God will C-U-R-S-E me for all Eternity
I am an A…
This is what Financial Blessings had to say about the song. (Here’s your 15mins buddy)
I’m torn in two; on the one hand, I loved the song; on the other hand, it’s really bad. Shame on your poopy mouth. It’s full of poop. Shame. Poop.I may be an asskisser, but I want a prophet’s reward. Kinda like the Centurion (US Soldier) in occupied Israel (Iraq) asked Jesus (a dirty Iraqi) to heal his servant (the platoon chef). In the modern vernacular, that’s prime A Ass kicking goodness. But that’s a kingdom reality. Ass kissing involves two kingdom postures. The first is kneeling, the second is kissing a part that you don’t deem holy. PRIDE won’t wash feet. PRIDE won’t die to rights and opinions and serve another mans vision. PRIDE will criticize from a distance.
This leads me to a few (serious) questions:
1. Do you think you can earn a “prophet’s reward” by tithing?
2. What is a “prophet’s reward”?
3. How do you earn it and when do you get it?
4. Did you really just call Jesus a “dirty Iraqi”? (I don’t think racists qualify for the “prophet’s reward”. Sorry dude.)
I would really like to hear from FB on what this all means. I’m sure he knows what he is talking about. I would think a “prophet’s reward” might be reserved for a prophet, but I don’t know; I guess I’m kinda old school that way.
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July 15th, 2005 at 12:43 pm
Sweet. My 15 minutes. Well, I’ll try to keep it under 11 minutes, cause it’s a well-documented fact that most of the people that will be reading this can’t pay attention for longer than that.
Let us draw our attention to the Centurion for but a moment. If faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God, how did the Centurion qualify for what Jesus dubbed “great faith, unfound in all of Israel”? Jesus statement would suggest that an uncircumcised, pagan-worshipping, unfamiliar-with-the-scriptures soldier possessed greater faith than Mary and John the Baptist (the latter being the recipient of Jesus praise as being one of the greatest prophets). The secret of access to Divine miracles, inheritances, and faith that removes mountains (within the proper context) lies not in what you know. Well then, you think to yourself, how do I access the kind of supernatural, meant-to-be life, full of wind-calming, crowd-feeding, sickness-ridding and all the other signs that should follow those that believe (don’t you love Scripture–it slams all the learned notions of what ‘you think Christianity is’ into the unforgiving wall of kingdom reality.
Remember the key to the greatest faith in Israel, according to Jesus, lies in something the Centurion did. Hands down, can’t argue with it. Now go contemplate it.
Now for the founders of this feast:
1. Yes, I do. Whose responsibility is it to obey the Scriptures and the God-ordained authorities–mine. Whose responsibility is it to manage the tithes properly–not mine. Who is held accountable for mismanagement of tithes–not me. Who is held accountable for obedience–me.
2. A prophet’s reward is two things. On one hand it’s the release of the supernatural through the vessel God has chosen to use to minister to you. Reread that last sentence slowly and methodically. Naamans healing is a prophets reward. Lunch for 5000 is a prophets reward. Spit in the eyes is a prophets reward (and the healing that manifested through it). The Bible is full of prophet’s rewards. It’s almost like an airmiles program. The second part of a prophets reward is the way you honour a prophet in the natural. Remember the boys who got eaten by bears for mocking the prophet. They got their reward. It’s both an old and new testament reality.
3. You earn it by honouring God’s prophets and the unconventional and sometimes logic-defying methods they use. Exhibit A–Naaman and the dirty Jordan River. Exhibit B, Jesus telling the boys to cast their nets on the other side. “We’ve been fishing all night, as if that’s gonna make a difference” would be the logical response. We all know what the rest of the story is.
Sometimes you get it when you honour the word immediately. Sometimes you get it after a season of honour and obedience. Remember, honouring a prophet isn’t to be confused with honouring scripture. Sometimes it’s honouring his humanity. Moses (called a prophet by the Bible) disobeyed God and smashed the rock a bunch of times in anger, but the people still got the water.
4. This was a metaphoric and relate-able allusion for all you American war-mongers (which is the majority of you). The Romans HATED the Jews. In letters back to Rome, Pilate begs to be re-commissioned because of his disgust for not only the people but the land. Rome was the garden of the gods, and Palestine by this time was wasteland. The Centurion had to remove himself completely from his training, his occupancy-mindset, his false authority. The way he addresses Jesus was unusual from the natural context.
What’s really ironic is the person who is writing all of this…me. If you new who I was and my experience, you’d offer me an induction into the club. I had a revelation this past year. That revelation, in one sentence, is that all my knowledge counts for a lot of crap if it isn’t put to use and if it isn’t accompanied by revelation. The Centurion had a revelation; The Jews had knowledge. The purpose of revelation is greater intimacy with Jesus. Revelation is built off truth, but not always. Have you ever noticed the kids in the church who couldn’t talk about doctrine if their life depended on it, and all their arguments aren’t their own, but some Youth pastor’s? ya…well they usually inherit the earth. Is it frustrating? Well it can be if you don’t catch what’s really at work. It’s not a ladder climbing contest; It’s not a corporate pyramid (although it has a lot of the same crap sometimes); it’s not a butt-kissing contest; it’s just a powerful truth untapped. UNREWARDED GENIUS IS ALMOST A PROVERB.
And there’s my 11 minutes.
July 15th, 2005 at 11:37 pm
FB,
That all makes a lot of sense…thanks for your clear responses.
I do disagree with a lot of what you said…but perhaps the most vehemently with your final point…unless you are yet again disguising your opinion with a rather penetrating criticism-turned-endorsement of what you see.
You said that the kids who merely parrot what they’ve been told are somehow inheriting “the earth”. If by “the earth” you mean “the narrow churchly world also known as the Christian ghetto”, then I agree with you. However, I think that’s a pretty shoddy prize.
Yes, Jesus said the Centurion had great faith. That doesn’t mean that faith is a substitute for truth-seeking…it simply means that great faith and truth-seeking aren’t necessarily the same in the moment. It’s egalitarian, really…anyone can find faith. Faith is just the willingness to embrace risk (my personal translation of “the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”). That’s why it doesn’t always turn out so well. Finding the truth for one’s self is a different activity altogether…but no less important, as it often lays the foundation for greater faith, more informed faith…a more calculated risk.
Because what was Jesus to the Centurion? Very much what you said. It was his knowledge, even his own prejudices that necessitated the magnitude of his faith to begin with. However, the next faith he had, the next leap he made would need to be further out in order for him to grow….because that would mean he’d learned something from the first leap. Yet again dispelling the widely held Christian superstition that stupidity somehow guards virtue and faith (the crappiest excuse ever for laziness, ignorance, and fear).
As for faith coming by hearing/Word of God…well, this will likely get me in a lot of hot water, but try it on for size: If we believe that God is infinite, what makes us think that the word of God is finite? If we believe that God is still speaking, why are we afraid to trust our ears and listen? If we believe that God made us in God’s image, why are we afraid of what we might find if we look for the truth with sincerity, open our minds, and cast aside parroting as an outdated spectator sport?
I am not interested in being blown about by winds of doctrine and going about only repeating what I’ve been told. I don’t care about rewards, prophets’ or otherwise. To me, that all sounds a lot like an early souped-up version of the commemorative keychain or something. I’m not a prophet, and I don’t really care to be one. I just want the truth.
July 16th, 2005 at 12:40 pm
well jiminy, you completely and utterly missed the point. I’m actually taken back, because i felt that I spelled it out quite nicely. Maybe you’re just avoiding the crux of the blog because you’re so deeply imbedded in the opposite spectrum.
The Centurion’s secret was honour. He honoured a person whom, in the natural mindset, he would’ve slapped.
You turned the focus onto faith and stepping out and other side-issues that easily distract the American mind.
It’s not about you being a prophet. It’s not about you wanting to be a prophet. It’s about cutting off the hands of the person God is going to use to breakthrough in every area of your life because of your pride and arrogance. The Jews resisted Jesus because He wasn’t everything they thought He would be. He didn’t fit their customs, He broke their rules, and He upset them with His political commentaries.
Brilliant and gifted people in the body of Christ often make the mistake of destroying the channel God chooses to use to propel them. The reason is because their brilliant minds, which are naturally critical in a good sense, will not commit to something they disagree with, and rather than seeing the great good and the opportunity to get involved and change things themselves, they slip out because of a lack of backbone, a lack of HUMILITY, a lack of HONOUR, a lack of WISDOM (don’t ever confuse wisdom with knowledge), a lack of vision, and a spirit unteachable.
If you honour a man in the natural and the spiritual, you will recieve the gift of God through Him both naturally and spiritually.
July 16th, 2005 at 2:27 pm
A while back, I wasn’t really able to form an opinion about this Financial Blessings person, but I’m rather starting to like him (or her?). A word of advice, however: the Cricket apparently doesn’t believe in the exclusivity of the redemption of Christ (or at least won’t profess to it, maybe the “only way” message scares her)–in fact, she’s quite fond of the Dali Lama for spiritual enlightenment–so you’re probably engaging in a discussion that won’t go anywhere.
That doesn’t mean the rest of us don’t appreciate your comments, however. Prophet’s rewards, they are. Keep ‘em up!
July 16th, 2005 at 4:31 pm
Yes, let’s only have discussions with people that think the exact same way as we do. Then we can tell each other how smart and intelligent and funny we are, and never risk seeing another side of an issue or learning something new.
July 16th, 2005 at 5:48 pm
Jeremy, I think what Anon was saying is that if we can’t agree on the basics, in this case the notion that there is no other way to eternal life except through Christ, then what’s the point in further discussion… show and tell?
July 16th, 2005 at 7:22 pm
I do not believe Jeremy missed the last anon’s point. If anything you missed his Cattle. What great progress has ever been accomplished by Group-think? Do people really enrich their understanding of the world by passively accepting everything they like, and sticking their fingers in their ears every time they hear something they don’t? Of course not.
Look at the Protestant Reformation. Luther made a stand and challenged the status quo. He composed an argument and made people really think about what they believe, and that is not a bad practice. In fact it is extremely healthy.
You all claim Jiminy to be arrogant, yet you fail to examine your own thoughts and actions. Since human beings have had the ability to think we have all tried to decipher the great enigmas that puzzle us all. And you all think you have it all figured out and that everyone who disagrees with you is a heretic. You fail humble yourselves to the fact you are all human and therefore falable. Are you really so arrogant to think that you have the answers to all of life’s quesitions? Is it not possible that God and his plan may not be what you think?
Quit feeding your narcissism and crucify your egos.
July 16th, 2005 at 9:54 pm
I can see it from both angles. Some people think that the point of a discussion is to convince the other person of their own viewpoint. If this was the goal of both sides above, yes it probably is pointless to continue. I personally have had many of these.
On the other hand, I also enjoy having discussions simply for discussions’ sake. If go in with an open mind and a humble attitude, then many times I learn something new. I might not agree with what the other person’s saying, but I better understand why people think certain ways. And that sounds like a win-win situation to me.
July 16th, 2005 at 11:38 pm
1. It is not groupthink to agree on a set of perameters for a conversation. It’s just good conversationalism. Heuristic exchanges of ideas require some sort of common denominator, however miniscule. Somehow, I don’t think the first Anon’s point was that we all have to agree on everything in order to talk, but rather, if we’re talking theology, we should AT LEAST agree on the foundation of Jesus’ diety and the infallibility of the Bible (which, I believe, Anon was saying is where Jiminy differs from most others on this blog–Jiminy correct me if I’m wrong).
2. The word “status quo” gets bantered around this blog with such haphazard recklessness that it hardly means anything anymore. It’s trite. If you’d like to take a jab at CBC or illustrate where Luther or Christ had their differences with religious folk of their day, then please come up with an original idea. “Status quo” only meant jack squat the first dozen or so times it came up in blog-versation, and it only makes you look like you can’t come up with an original idea on your own. (Talk about groupthink!)
3. Finally, Anon #2, you said, “…you all think you have it all figured out and that everyone who disagrees with you is a heretic.” Hello? What do you think was the foundation of this blog in the first place? It was a bunch of people who thought they had it all figured out and that anyone who disagreed with them about City Bible Church is __________ (fill in the blank: deceived, trapped in a “megachurch matrix,” blind to the truth, in bondage, a rotten egg, whatever… I think I even heard CBC equated to Hitler’s regime which, by the way, made that commenter look like a complete moron). Anon #2, I believe the insult you’re really lobbing out there is that anyone who holds onto their conviction–if that conviction is in defense of CBC or critical of anyone who takes up arms against CBC–has failed to “humble” themselves. How conditional. Sir or madam, to put it in your own words, crucify YOUR OWN ego.
July 17th, 2005 at 11:02 am
Ok kids, let’s play nice for a second.
I think there’s a lot of accusations being made here, and sadly, a lot of them are correct….especially where humility and not listening is concerned.
I happen to think that my status as designated scapegoat is merely unfortunate. The things people are saying about me with venomous intent aren’t really bothersome except for the fact that they indicate closedness. It’s funny, because none of this is really an argument. No one is arguing…instead, we’re all attempting to lay ground rules for why the other person is wrong before the conversation even begins. That’s not going anywhere.
As for FB….no, I didn’t miss the point. I getcha, honest I do. I just disagree. My telling you how I disagree doesn’t equate to my not getting it…because the fact of the matter is that, at any given moment, you’re not necessarily right, and neither am I. Until you’re willing to believe that any assertion you make is subject to honest critical evaluation from another perspective, no one will ever be able to discuss anything with you. Perspectives differ. That’s how the world works.
If you go into a discourse believing categorically that you can’t be wrong (or at least only seeing part of the picture), there’s no point in talking. If you have the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, well…let me shake your hand, because you are the Infinite Deity incarnate. But you don’t, and you’re not…and neither am I.
This is real honor, my friend…believing in our mutual limitedness and our need for one another’s perspective in order to become more complete. In my opinion, you have failed to honor me, thus proving your own point rather beautifully. To be honest, I find it very hard to honor you under these circumstances…but I’m trying my best.
And, I also think it’s a little chuckle-worthy that Jesus and I have our unpopular political commentaries in common amongst similar people groups (the religiously inclined) in our respective time periods. And you accuse me of the exact same things that the Pharisees accused Jesus of….idolatry, heresy, deconstructionism, arrogance, etc.
I’m not saying I’m your savior…that’s really the last thing I’m after, ’cause my calendar’s bloody full enough, and I don’t think I’m cut out to save anyone. But, I am saying that perhaps all this finger pointing is just another manifestation of history repeating itself.
As for my personal theology…it’s really just none of your business, and it’s not relevant. Don’t confuse idle curiosity with a real need to know for the sake of the argument at hand. You’ll have to find another person to chase out of town with your pitchforks…’cause playing “Witch Hunt” isn’t my idea of a good time.
I think a lot of what we’re dealing with here is a phobia of knowledge. It’s pretty pervasive in the contemporary fundamentalist movement because the scholarly community has taken a lot of pot-shots at fundamentalism. I also think that’s why a lot of folks here seem to despise me…it seems like not much has changed since high school. I’m now just daring the whole bunch of you to prove me wrong….let’s see some compassionate argumentation at work, folks.
July 19th, 2005 at 3:17 pm
It would appear that the Cricket has beat me to the punch yet again. However since I had a comment directed at me (I was anonymous number 2 because I forgot to log in) I feel I should reply.
For point one.
You are correct to say that there should be a set of parameters for a conversation. However I believe those parameters should be agreed upon by BOTH parties. The two examples you cited are ones that really limit what can discussed and therefore give you an unfair advantage. There are quite a few highly respected, Biblical scholars out there who would disagree with one or both of the parameters you set forth Cattle.
Point 2.
This a good example of a bulverism/ad hominem fallacy. You really did nothing more than compose a lengthy insult. First off, I have not been able to read every post that has been made on this blog. Between work, school, two different martial arts, and my social obligations I really just don’t have the time. All the posts that were made before February, have not been viewed by me. Of all of the posts I have read (not including mine), I only recall two references made about Luther. I used Luther in my analogy because I was always taught that one should compare the topic of discussion, to a more readily known idea. As for status quo, I really have not counted how many times it has been used. I was also unaware that there was a limit on how many times a concept can be used.
Point 3.
I really do not view this blog as such. I see it as a place where people who have been hurt by CBC can come and vent their frustrations. That is the entire concept of this blog as I understand it. That is why I am here voicing my opinion.
Allow me to go off topic for a moment. Bible Temple was the church I was born into. It was church I had known all my life. And I can remeber going to all of the church’s little functions, from action night, to fact class, the BBQs everything. I even remember the one time my family members and I were named “Members in Particular.” My family gave and gave to that place to their own detriment. And we recieved next to nothing in return. I have some very fond memories of introducing myself to the same youth pastor seven times. Telling him my name, is this my first time, how long I had attended BT (interestingly enough longer than he had), the works. Sure, there were a lot of other kids for him to remember the names of, but SEVEN TIMES? In order to be recognized you either had to be an elders kid or a trouble maker, otherwise you were like me: a statistic. Sadly, I could post under my real name and it would not shock me to have no one (excluding my family) recognize my name. That is not what a church should be.
Now back to the topic at hand.
There have been those who have called CBC members mindless drones, however there are also quite a few people that have openly expressed their genuine compassion for CBC members. I still have friends that attend CBC, and they are genuinely good people. I have no problem with CBC’s members, it is the administration that I take issue with. And my issue with you and FB has nothing to do with the fact that you attend CBC. It is with your blind hatered for my sister, Jiminy. Upon rereading my earlier post I can see how there may have been some ambiguity as to what the “you” in my third paragraph was referring to. It was not to CBC members in general, it was only those who do nothing to address the points that people on this blog make.
I am still waiting for the answer to my question. Is it not possible that God and his plan may not be what you think?
August 17th, 2005 at 2:27 am
Dear FB I think this quote from, “Revolution in World Missions” accurately describes CBC’s current (ass kissing)position.
“The Church Jesus called out of this world to be separated unto himself, has to a great extent, forgotten her reason for existence. Her loss of balance is seen in the current absence of holiness, spiritual realilty and concern for the lost. Substituted for the life she once knew are teaching and preaching for prosperity, pleasure, politics and social involvment.”
And to this I think God would say, “Shame on your poopy perspective of Christ’s gospel! It’s full of poop! Shame!
October 28th, 2005 at 2:44 am
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