I would have been a CBC’er, had it not been for CBC.
Posted on July 28th, 2005 by Reformed Pope into the Uncategorized categoryI hate bumper stickers. They annoy me. I think it’s that every time I try to read one I only can see part of it. Then I find myself chasing someone all around town trying to figure out what the punch line is. Of course it’s never funny and that makes me angry.
However this morning on the way into work I saw one I liked. I didn’t really like the sticker, but I liked what it said. It was a quote by Ghandi. I know very little about Ghandi and maybe he says things like this all the time, but it was new to me. The sticker read:
I like your Christ but not your Christians, they are not like your Christ. – Ghandi
This was a good quote, but I found an even better one online “I would have been a Christian, had it not been for Christians” – Ghandi. I said before that I don’t know much about Ghandi, but I think I like him. I’ve often said “I hate Christians”, but that causes a lot of problems for me. I think when Ghandi makes those statements what he’s really saying is “I hate Christians”, but he’s doing it in such a nice, Christ-like way.
This blog could probably learn a lot from him.
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July 28th, 2005 at 6:52 pm
Maybe if I crossed my eyes and slightly blurred my vision; maybe if I had a prescription and took a few Sudafed tablets; maybe if I was trapped in a room oozing with napalm and a Cricket perched high atop her ivory “enlightened” tower with no possible way for me to escape (God, NO!) then I might be able to read between the lines and comprehend what you’re saying. But don’t you think there’s a slightly less… oh, I don’t know… “Hindu” way of saying what you mean?
(Not that there’s anything wrong with that… that is, unless you consider eternal damnation to be “wrong.”)
July 28th, 2005 at 7:37 pm
cattle list,
huh?
-Anon.
July 29th, 2005 at 6:55 am
I am a christian, and I hate christians.
Many people never get a chance to get offended by the message of the cross, they are first offended by some lame christian who turns them off from God.
Go ahead, ask around. You’ll see it’s true.
July 29th, 2005 at 8:38 am
I don’t hate christians, I just hate cattle list.
;)
July 29th, 2005 at 9:05 am
Hate the sin, Not the sinner.
July 29th, 2005 at 9:39 am
wish CBC would take that advice.
July 29th, 2005 at 9:42 am
fear the curse:
Many people never get a chance to get offended by the message of the cross, they are first offended by some lame christian who turns them off from God.
There is a co-worker of mine whom I like very much, and who pains me.
He’s had his ups and his downs, and one of his downs led him into what seems to be a fundamentalist church. He’s the sort of fellow who comes to work with a Bible at almost all times, reads The Christian In Complete Armour at work, that sort of thing. He’s kind of a Jesus junkie
But still he’s a nice fellow and we get on well. I keep him at arms’ length, tho’, and I don’t bring up religion with him. He doesn’t force it on me.
But he’s the sort who would vote to punish gay people (as w ould his sister, whose car has a bumper sticker on the dashboard about “one man, one woman”).
And we’ve had gay people working there, and he treats them well and cordially and with respect.
And I wonder how much longer the cognitive dissonance is going to sustain before the poor man’s head implodes.
July 29th, 2005 at 10:22 am
Tsk, tsk, Anon
. Hate is a very strong word with all the properties of dark energy, and you know the end result of that: bad, bad karma. Besides that, hate speech toward a minority like me (my blood type is O negative, which is only 2% of the population) only shows the intolerance that has gripped your soul. Fortunately for you, there’s a big rock high in the Himalayans where you can go meditate for a while and get more centered; where your inner god can become one with nature. Hurry along, now. Put on this robe and make haste… let the light of love be your guide!
July 29th, 2005 at 10:26 am
Here’s a less Hindu translation of Ghandi’s point for Cattle List’s benefit. He’s persuaded by Jesus and His teachings, but turned off by the hypocrisy of some of His followers. I have to say I can’t blame him when I look around and see that same hypocrisy in some professed Christians.
For example, Cattle List claims that Ghandi’s statement is very Hindu and proceeds to say something equivalent to “all Hindus are going to hell.” I would like to say thank you to Cattle List for giving such a well thought out example of the arrogant, judgemental attitude that Ghandi was speaking about in his quote.
Just because someone follows a different religion doesn’t mean they can’t make a good point. If you want a Christian source saying the same thing, here’s a quote from an interlude off a DC Talk album…
“The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today
is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips
Then walk out the door and deny him by their lifestyle.
That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable.”
July 29th, 2005 at 10:38 am
Hate the Greed, Not the Dollar.
July 29th, 2005 at 10:40 am
Hate Capitalist, Fascist, Christians, Not Jesus.
July 29th, 2005 at 10:40 am
My Boss is a Jewish Socialist.
July 29th, 2005 at 10:53 am
“I would like to say thank you to Cattle List for giving such a well thought out example of the arrogant, judgemental attitude that Ghandi was speaking about in his quote.”
So true.
July 29th, 2005 at 11:20 am
Dear Fez–can I call you Fez? Let’s talk about hypocrisy, shall we?
Hipocrisy is:
a) Saying you’re a Christian (or typing it in a blog, as it were), and yet treating the Church like she’s the great whore of Babylon. “Go ahead, give ‘er another black eye to match the first one… woo-hoo! Praise the Lord.”
b) Delighting in the past malpractices of a particular church, pharasaically rehashing them with other old-timers as a form of “group therapy” with complete disregard for biblically sanctioned fruits such as love, longsuffering and patience (to name a few) applied to your own life.
c) Claiming to have a form of Christianity, and yet, living your life no differently than any other yahoo on the street: powerless to deliver or heal, ignorant to the global commission, enchanted with the expression of your own freedoms, blind to the schemes of hell and confused as to the eternal blight of those who reject the exclusive redemption of Christ. (Yes, I said “exclusive.”)
d) All of the above.
The question, Fez, is not whether a Hindu can make a good point, it’s whether that is the BEST point to make, considering the forum. “I would have been a Christian, had it not been for those awful Christians” is a point I find neither insightful nor encouraging, regardless of who makes it. And Christians who make that point out of one side of their mouth and “love the sinner” out of the other side of their mouth (as some are in the habit of doing) only provide their own Exibit A.
That’s hipocrisy too.
July 29th, 2005 at 11:35 am
I don’t think anyone asked whether a Hindu can make a good point. Its easy to win arguments, when you’re the one asking and answering the questions.
Question: Is Cattle List an idiot?
Answer: Yes.
July 29th, 2005 at 11:45 am
Fezzik: “Just because someone follows a different religion doesn’t mean they can’t make a good point.”
July 29th, 2005 at 11:49 am
I don’t think any of us really want to be like Ghandi. He was a mystical man who never wore soes, so his feet were thick and hard, dry and cracked. He went on a hunger strike, rendering him very weak and frail. But because he hardly ever ate, the acid in his stomach gave him dreadfully bad breath.
Ghandi was a super calloused, fragile mystic vexed with halitosis.
(LOL)
July 29th, 2005 at 12:06 pm
David Phillips get your damn jokes off my blog.
You are banished, banished, banished.
July 29th, 2005 at 12:18 pm
“I would have been a Catholic, had it not been for the child molesting.”
“I would have been a Muslim, had it not been for the terrorism.”
“I would have been a butcher, baker or candlestick maker, had it not been for the blood, ovens and hot wax.”
“I would have been a homosexual, had it not been for the whole ‘dip stick in the tailpipe’ thing.”
“I would have been a hare krishna, had it not been for the haircut and bells.”
“I would have been a zoo keeper, had it not been for all the elephant crap.”
“I would have been a Hot Dog on a Stick employee, had it not been for the hats.”
—————-
The bottom line is, there are pros and cons to everything. Painting anyone with broad strokes is irresponsible, at best. Not all Muslims are terrorists, not all Catholics are abusers, not all Christians are hypocrites.
July 29th, 2005 at 12:34 pm
a) Making the point that hyprocritical and/or judgemental Christians turn people off to God (which I see you fail to acknowledge) is not the equivalent of calling the entire Church the whore of babylon. Hyperbole is not your friend.
b) Bringing up past misdeeds of BT/CBC would be wrong if they had changed from their past ways. The trouble is they continue to adhere to their twisted status quo and ignore and belittle anyone who dares speak out against their brand of theology.
c) How do you claim to know how exactly I live my life? Please show me where I denied the exclusive of Christ. While you’re at it, why don’t you explain to us the difference between my spending $10 on a monthly Texas hold-em poker tournament fellowshipping with my family and friends and a CBC member spending $100+ dollars at starbucks per month to finance their caffeine addiction.
What I find sad about your dismissal of Ghandi’s point has nothing to do with his religion. It has to do with the simple fact that an admitted non-believer can cut through the self righteous crap and point out the undeniably biggest issue in Christianity today while most Christians can’t see it. If you want to believe the modern church is perfect, then you go right ahead. Just don’t be surprised when you continue to turn more and more people off with your self-righteous attitude and unwillingness to take a critical look at yourself and your church instead of yapping about non-believers going to hell.
July 29th, 2005 at 12:38 pm
Fez, you forgot to address letter d).
July 29th, 2005 at 12:43 pm
I’ve got to be honest. I’m pretty impressed with Fezzik.
July 29th, 2005 at 12:46 pm
Fezzik Cattle List
score Score
3 -3 and then some
July 29th, 2005 at 12:47 pm
Fezzik,
I think I like you too.
July 29th, 2005 at 12:49 pm
Cattle’s Ass,
Once again you have helped me illustrate my point perfectly.
Thank you.
After reading your comments I think the world can see why we need this blog.
July 29th, 2005 at 12:49 pm
why does cattle list even bother to post on here? Most of us don’t speak dumb ass around here.
July 29th, 2005 at 1:08 pm
Oh, you’re right. I should just shut my mouth and shrink back because it isn’t popular. I shouldn’t speak my opinion; the blog leadership doesn’t like that and I might be shamed and asked to leave.
I’m SO-O-O SORRY for weighing in. Clearly, I don’t know what I’m talking about. It was wrong of me to voice my opinion. From now on, I’ll only silently object when someone takes a lead pipe to the church. I’ll hang out here at the back of the bus with the others of my kind where I belong.
Everyone, carry on.
July 29th, 2005 at 1:11 pm
Cattle’s Ass,
Personally I think we need more people like you willing to speak up on this site.
You don’t think things through very clearly, but your opinions are always welcome here.
July 29th, 2005 at 1:21 pm
Yeah, everyone’s really rolling out the red carpet here.
July 29th, 2005 at 1:41 pm
Gee, Cattle List,
I think it’s interesting that you’re willing to bash me unfairly and publicly, and then start bitching and moaning the second anyone gives you a taste of your own medicine. That smells a lot like hypocrisy to me…or at the very least, being willing to dish it out, but not to take it.
Here’s my 2 cents: Ghandi was a smart guy pointing out the obvious….the point is really about as complex as the question “Who’s buried in Grant’s tomb?” He wasn’t really bashing anyone, just saying that he personally wasn’t interested in being affiliated with a group of people who behave as he saw Christians behaving. In fact, he said he was indeed interested in following Christ, that he identified with and accepted Christ’s life and message. Therefore, doesn’t that make him his own brand of Christian, if we define “Christian” as “a follower of Christ”?
I’m sure it’s only a matter of a short time before someone points out that we have no evidence that Ghandi ever prayed the sinner’s prayer, blah, blah blah. So? Isn’t it always just blue shit theory anyway (meaning that anyone can tell you that they prayed the sinner’s prayer and meant it in the same way they can tell you that their poo is blue….in both cases, you’re stuck believing what they say if you have no evidence to the contrary or just disbelieving them on principle)?
So, CL (can I call you CL?), here’s my message to you: I have no interest in participating in a feeding frenzy on your person. You obviously have some very decided opinions, and I’m willing to bet you have your reasons for holding them. I honor that, and I honor you for it. However, I do feel that your statements have appeared close-minded and reactionary, and I hope you will stop and really consider what was said and what you’re saying before you lose track of what might be of value in all this.
May the light of truth dispel the darkness and save all beings from suffering.
July 29th, 2005 at 5:13 pm
Jim (Can I call you Jim?), you wouldn’t know satire if it grabbed you by the nose ring and flung you around like a burning flag at a peace march. That wasn’t bitching, that was an illustration, you bonehead. (Funny, I always had you pegged for someone who knew what real bitching is.)
For someone who dodges personal questions about faith (do doubt for the disfavor it would earn you on this blog), you have little room to talk about theology so I’m not really interested in what you have to say about mine. Truth is absolute, which is something you’ve become confused about over recent years.
But you know Jim, the thing that’s really noteworthy here is that the fine folks on this blog, like yourself, dish it out to CBC all day long. Post after post takes pot shots at City Bible (individuals, corporately and the leadership) without so much as a whim of human decency. Unfair public bashing is acceptable, even encouraged when it’s selectively directed at CBC. And here you are with your knickers in a twist because somebody stands up to your relative truth baloney.
Hipocrisy, anyone?
Is there room for more than one viewpoint on this blog? Probably not. Which is exactly what everyone seems to have against CBC.
July 29th, 2005 at 5:49 pm
Cat List,
I truly want you to keep posting. I love the fact that you spend so much time reading my posts and then you graciously take the time to ramble through some comment (It makes the blog more exciting and sometimes it really drags). The problem is not that you disagree. No, the problem is that you are an idiot. Again, that’s not because you disagree, but because you write things like “…if I was trapped in a room oozing with napalm…”.
Now, I know that calling you an idiot isn’t going to bridge the gap between City Bible and City Business but I don’t think you are that well liked at CBC either (just a hunch). I’ll save my bridge building for my next sit down with one of the elders (anyone want to go to Old Chicago?).
You said that hypocrisy is: “treating the Church like she’s the great whore of Babylon”, “Delighting in the past malpractices of a particular church”, and “Claiming to have a form of Christianity, and yet, living your life no differently than any other yahoo* on the street”. While these are all terrible things that may send us all to hell they are not actually hypocrisy.
“Hipocrisy is:”
actually spelled H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y
hy•poc•ri•sy
1. The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.
2. An act or instance of such falseness.
After reading the real definition of hypocrisy I don’t think that you can classify us as hypocrites. I profess to not like City Business Church and that’s true. Just because you feel differently doesn’t make me a hypocrite. However, if you ever hear me claim that CBC is a true church of God then you might have me, but for now I’ll just be __________ (fill in the blank with another sin)
* its nice to see that you think of non-Christians as yahoo’s. (Christians make me sick)
July 29th, 2005 at 6:04 pm
Based on what I’ve seen and read on this blog, all viewpoints tend to be welcome. However, that does not mean someone isn’t going to question your view and make you back it up.
You seem to like to drone on and on about how your view isn’t welcome here, but you’re the one that has done nothing but name call and insinuate nasty things about people who disagree with you (need more proof? look at your username) Or is that more of your “illustrations” for our benefit? You’ve had plenty of opportunities to make your points in a civilized fashion, but you continue to take the low road and duck or mock any points you can’t counter. So how about we skip the your momma jokes and get back to the point of this thread.
-Do you or do you not think there is a problem in the modern church with HYPOCRISY? (note the spelling) Why or why not?
Also, you accuse this blog of unfairly bashing CBC, so why don’t you debunk our accusations or explain how else we can effect some change there when they repeatedly ignore those that bring these points before the leadership.
What you don’t seem to get is it was very difficult to leave that place having it drilled into your head that you are a bad person for disagreeing with the leadership on anything. Then you discover there are many others like you that feel the same and have very similar experiences and feel an immense weight lifted off your shoulders. If you want to disagree with this blog then have it your way, but don’t you dare come here and say we’re all bad people for being wronged by CBC.
P.S. It doesn’t do your credibility any good to call a certain poster a lesbian, goat-worshipping, left wing, know-it-all, lesbian hippie.
P.P.S. You were bitching
July 29th, 2005 at 6:08 pm
Darn, RP beat me to it.
Make sure you order a Fat Tire if you go to Old Chicago. It goes great with the calzones.
July 29th, 2005 at 9:49 pm
RP, you call me an idiot once more and I’m gonna kick your skinny ass again.
Fez, don’t put words in my mouth, it makes you look desperate. To answer your question, yes, I do think there is HYPOCRISY in the church (did I spell it correctly?), even in CBC. I agree there are people who drum up “Holy Spirit” tears and pass off wishful thinking as faith. However, it’s not my job to fix their problem. It’s God’s work to convict the hearts of men… and His alone. So unless you’re moonlighting as the Almighty on the weekends, you should probably keep it to yourself and let God work it out.
If you need a recovery group to get over your bleeding heart, go see a shrink.
July 30th, 2005 at 6:07 am
Mr. List, why do you read this blog? There are a billion other websites you could visit. Why this one?
July 30th, 2005 at 9:39 am
Listy-Poo,
Kick my ass again? That’s your response?
You might as well have said
“RP you are right, I am an idiot”.
I told you so.
July 30th, 2005 at 10:51 am
Cattle List seems bitter. I will keep him in my prayers.
July 30th, 2005 at 1:17 pm
Once again, it appears Cattle’s ass proves Ghandi was right.
August 1st, 2005 at 10:04 am
who is this Fezzik character? Me likey. Keep up the insight.
August 1st, 2005 at 11:36 am
Cattle List,
I actually am quite good at recognizing bitching. I’m a choral conductor, and no one bitches more than singers. That’s why I was so sure you were bitching…it sounded so much like a favorite song of mine:
M-A-R
T-Y-R
M-O-U-S-E
Martyr Mouse, Martyr Mouse,
Forever let us hang our head and cry
Come along and sing a song and join our misery
M-A-R
T-Y-R
M-O-U-S-E
Yeah, because the statement:
“I’m SO-O-O SORRY for weighing in. Clearly, I don’t know what I’m talking about. It was wrong of me to voice my opinion. From now on, I’ll only silently object when someone takes a lead pipe to the church. I’ll hang out here at the back of the bus with the others of my kind where I belong.”
….is clearly an illustration and isn’t completely loaded with self-pity?
If you’d like to talk about faith, here’s what I have to say. Faith is simply the willingness to take a risk. About what is always the question. Do I have faith in the Jesus you serve and describe? Absolutely not, because the image you ascribe to your Jesus is downright vile, in my opinion. You’re not describing a loving God to me, but an ugly pet you’ve designed and trained to attack people who make you uncomfortable.
If God is infinite, then necessarily it is true that any one person can only see a part of the picture.
If God must be so small that you can keep Him in your terrarium, then what good is God to you anyway?
If God never surprises you with His opinions, aren’t you worried that there’s something wrong?
If you haven’t heard anything recently that blows your mind and your paradigm right out of the water, won’t you even begin to suspect that you’re only projecting your own comfortable thoughts back to yourself?
PS: You really must invest in a better pair of binoculars…I don’t have a nose ring. I’m allergic to metal.
August 1st, 2005 at 12:51 pm
PS: You really must invest in a better pair of binoculars…I don’t have a nose ring. I’m allergic to metal.
That’s so great! It’ll bother you that much more when I shove these metal binoculars up your…
August 3rd, 2005 at 11:37 am
Wow, CL, great comeback. You really addressed all of my points very eloquently. Props for you.
Does your therapist know you fantasize about shoving binoculars up people’s ….? I imagine that should probably be addressed at some point. Where I come from, anal penetration by binocular for the purpose of silencing and domination is known as rape.
So, yeah, I’m telling you that statement was both completely ineffective and not funny.
August 10th, 2005 at 12:47 pm
Crickety, take a joke for once and don’t turn it into a feminist political lesson. If you want to act like a man, you should learn how to joke around like one. Otherwise, get out of the locker room.
August 10th, 2005 at 1:16 pm
Anonymous,
That’s Ms. Cricket to you, bitch. Only your momma calls me Crickety.
There, does that seem a little more locker room-esque? Perhaps it’s more to your liking.
I don’t particularly want to “talk like a man”….do you have a problem with that? It’s probably shocking to you, my total lack of penis envy. I have no desire to take on the kind of discourse that you seem to identify as masculine. Why? Because it’s stagnant, and for that reason, useless. Lobbing insults back and forth serves no purpose except to distract from the point…which, appropriately enough, has a lot to do with insulting people without trying to understand anything new.
So, unless you’re out to prove Gandhi’s point, I suggest you shut your piehole (oops, boy dialogue sneaking in again!) until you have either a real criticism or a counter-argument to offer.
August 12th, 2005 at 6:08 pm
Stop, just… stop please. You’re making me nausious.