Recently, Pam Hogeweide from http://www.pamhogeweide.blogspot.com/ was asked to write an article about disillusioned Christians for an online publication called Off the Map (http://www.off-the-map.org/). For some reason she seems to think that I would fall into the “disillusioned Christian†category. – I’m not sure why she would think that; I know I’m disillusioned but calling me a Christian was a little low. – Regardless, I agreed to answer a few questions for her.
While writing my answers for the questions I found that they really caused me to think and since that is what we are all about here at City Business Church I thought I would post one of the questions for you to consider.
What is your perspective on gays and church…just asking…can a homosexual come to Christ, be part of church, and continue to identify themselves as gay believing that God created them that way? What are your views on this and do you have any thoughts about how the church responds to homosexuality and same-sex marriage…
Feel free to comment:
When Pam asked for my response, this was my answer to that question:
a) Gays in the church? Liars in the church? Gossipers in the church? Boasters in the church? Alcoholics in the church? Of course. But gays who have no interest in giving up their unbiblical sexual conduct? Or liars who do not learn to speak the truth? Or gossipers who do not learn to control their tongues? Or boasters who are not interested in learning humility? Or alcoholics who enjoy drinking sprees every weekend? No.
Homosexuality is sexual behavior outside the boundaries of Scripture. It does not matter what the source — nature or nurture. When a person comes to the Cross, he agrees to lay down everything in exchange for a new life in Jesus. Sometimes that takes awhile; the metamorphosis is not instant. The goal of Christianity is to become like Jesus, ready to be His bride. That means a life devoted to Him, and aligned with his word. When the Holy Spirit confronts us on any behavior that does not conform to the image of Jesus, be it lying, yelling at the kids, eating too much, sleeping with someone who is not a spouse of the opposite sex, we must be willing to say Yes to Him, and take that behavior to the Cross, asking for grace to learn new behavior. The same goes for thoughts, paradigms, etc.
This goes back to my point about doctrine. There really is no wiggle room for this one in Scripture. The Bible is very clear: homosexuality is a sin. People can claim to be whatever they want. They can claim to be Elvis reincarnated. That does not make it so.
b)But how the Church responds to homosexuals and same-sex marriage is a different story. The whole same-sex marriage thing did nothing to bring people to Jesus; it just alienated the Church even further from culture. Why? Because we tried to change the culture without changing people.
The culture is swiftly moving to embrace homosexuality as a normal variation of sexuality. That means the laws will follow suit as they did with abortion, atheism, etc. At one time, the culture of the land and the culture of the church were very similar, and the laws reflected that. No longer. Attempting to change the culture of the land through laws is pretty self-defeating.
Likewise, acting as if the changing of the laws will mean the changing of the church is pretty weird, too. WE ARE NO LONGER YOKED!
Of course, I think that when the laws of the land uphold the principles of the Bible, the land will be blessed. When they do not, there will be trouble. On that basis alone, it’s a good idea to lobby for Scriptural laws. But law does not change culture; it only reflects it.
Which takes me back to the very beginning. If Church were known to be a place where the presence of God resides, and people are in love with Him and with their neighbors (whoever that might be), wouldn’t it be awesome? If we could learn to be more like Jesus, how would we respond to the homosexual person? First, we would relate to him/her as a person. Just a person. Jesus did not relate to Peter as a betrayer, or Matthew as a thief, or James and John as spoiled egomaniacs. He treated them like people … like His friends. And they so fell in love with Him, that they changed, just so they could be with Him forever and ever.
Christ died for all and I believe that it would be up to the person to decide whether or not his/her lifestyle is going to hinder their chances at Heaven.
Leave it up to the person.
There is a reason we have the OLD Testament and thank God the New Testament exists.
We all have the same chance at entering the Kingdom and NO MAN has a right to decide who can/can’t enter that Kingdom.
“So how do you feel about all of these homosexual groups trying to take over the whitehouse?”
“Hmm, which groups are these?”
“You know, the ones….”
“No, i’m afraid I’m not familiar with such groups. In fact, all of the homosexuals I know are nice, caring, responsible people and citizens. I could, however, give you a list right now of atleast 100 Christian groups who are trying to take over the whitehouse.”
I really agree with “anna” about christians pushing for delegation of morality. that will never work! if we want to change things, it has to come from the ground up, not by pressing down from above with laws. The problem with that is it requires action. It requires responsibility. It requires (god forbid) actual interaction with the accurs’d homosexuals. “Love the sinner, hate the sin” i feel has become a cop-out for actually caring about people. Yes Paul clearly said homosexuality is a sin and that no homosexuals would inherit the kingdom of heaven…but didn’t he also say that he would rather go to hell himself to see one person brought into the knowledge of christ? I think if the church balanced the “wrongness” of homosexuality with an urgency and genuine compassion for the lost..then it might be a bit more effective.
So how do you feel about all of these homosexual groups trying to take over the whitehouse?”
“Hmm, which groups are these?”
“You know, the ones….”
“No, i’m afraid I’m not familiar with such groups. In fact, all of the homosexuals I know are nice, caring, responsible people and citizens. I could, however, give you a list right now of atleast 100 Christian groups who are trying to take over the whitehouse.”
It is courteous, as well as lawful, to acknowledge when you are quoting something that has been published, such as this wonderful quote from author Don Miller’s Searching for God knows What (p.187)
(This quote, btw, comes from my fave chapter in the book titled, Morality)
Unless of course, Forlornandworn IS
Don Miller…
When I set out to write this article I interviewed several people. It was interesting to me that the two CB’ers, uh, I mean former CB’ers, provided the lengthiest answers and insights compared to everybody else. RP and Anna had a lot to say.
So let me confess here that last year I was totally caught up in the frenzy of Measure 36. I received emails nearly everyday from “pro-family” organizations warning me that western civilization as we know it could collapse if John and Bob were allowed to become Mr and Mr. I asked my husband if we could put our Yes on 36 sign up in the yard. I argued with him when he said No, convinced he was under the spiritual influence of the world, We have to stand up for righteousness, honey!
After the election and the passing of M36 there was a great sense of victory and Oh yeah, the devil ain’t having his way in Oregon, “not on my watch”, as some local leaders put it.
In the weeks and months that followed after the election and as the dust settled the rhetoric began flying…the Republicans, it was being said in the final analysis, manipulated Christians with the homo card. I was outraged. I’m an intelligent woman who voted exactly the way I wanted to, I was not manipulated!
But somehow, in time, I began to have this uncomfortable feeling, like a splinter in your finger you can feel but can’t see, and I began to have to face the possibility that yeah, maybe I was played. Maybe I’m not so intelligent and free-thinking after all.
And I started wondering about this lesbian couple I knew. How would it really affect me or my marriage or my kids if they became Mrs and Mrs?
What really became a painful admisson was that I had expended energy and passion for a cause like M36, but had not channeled similar action for true social causes, like poverty, or child abuse, or the AIDS epidemic in Africa…it took the threat of two human beings of the same gender possibliy enjoying the benefits of matrimony to get my butt off the sofa and into gear.
What the f%$# is wrong with me?
M36 revealed more about the tragic condition of my own cold heart than anything else.
If I could do it all over again I would not have cast a Yes on M36.
As I have gotten past the dust and debris of my own hypocrisy I find a glimmer of hope in that I am willing now to see people as simply people, instead of as demographics like gay, liberal, or (gasp!) Christian.
Anna said it well:
Jesus did not relate to Peter as a betrayer, or Matthew as a thief, or James and John as spoiled egomaniacs. He treated them like people … like His friends.
an amen to that.
My post here has morphed into a blog of it’s own (apologies RP).
Sorry about the lack of proper quote identification. I didn’t remember which book it was from. the quotations were definitely used loosely.. it was just what I could paraphrase from memory.
you actually paraphrased quite nicely considering it was just from memory. I’m impressed. I only recognized it because I just read the book a few weeks ago and, like I said, that was my fave chapter.
So you’re not Don Miller?
I gotta say, I think this is all a little silly. Until we take a good look at the underlying principle at work here, none of us has any room or reason to make a choice.
If we say the Bible is the literal truth all the time, then the answer is obvious. But, the “homosexual issue” would then become a drop in the bucket, if we were all both scrupulous (nay, perfect) in our scholarship and flawlessly and mercilessly honest with ourselves.
None of you is really and truly going to do that, even if you want to….it’s simply not going to happen, and frankly, I don’t think it needs to. The purpose of the church is not to follow the rules of scripture, and Jesus never said it was (as a favorite author of mine says. “‘He came that we might have a proper code of behavior’ is not the same as ‘He came that we might have life.’”)
The other option is to say that if we honor the spirit rather than the letter of the law on any number of other issues and take cultural concerns under consideration (which we DO….CONSTANTLY), then it’s equally appropriate to do so on this isolated issue.
If we don’t like acknowledging that we’re abandoning the letter of the law on this matter, it’s only correct to recognize the enormous precedent there is for doing exactly that. Anything less is just denial. There is a huge dualism to resolve here: literal interpretation vs. not. If we choose literal, we have to do it ALL the way or recognize our hypocrisy. The status quo allows for hypocrisy, picking and choosing of which rules we *have* to follow…if you don’t believe that, you’re simply misinformed.
To resolve this issue with integrity, we have to stare down the issue of literal vs. non-literal, deal with what we actually see about our status quo, and go from there. Anything less means that none of us deserves to call ourselves a moral or thoughtful person. And, either way, massive and uncomfortable changes must result.
If we choose to play by Paul’s rules and exclude homosexuals, we must recognize that if we play by all Paul’s rules, we’ll exclude our entire society…including ourselves.
As it was in the days of Sodom, so shall it be in the coming of the Son of man. It is wrong to be a Homosexual. God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and he will destroy us once again because of our actions her on earth. If not he will have to rise Sodom back up and ask for forgiveness.
Your second question is where they have a part in the church. I say anywhere you want them to. I mean you let anything go on in the church why wouldn’t you let them be a part of your church. They’ll pay their tithes better then straight people. You guys that write this stuff and read it are looking in the right direction by searching and asking questions. But continue to look to the churches knowing that they the churches installed in you a fear of existence without them. The church is made up of men and decision by them to make the doctrine of the church. They are always looking out for the best interest of their congregation spiritually and financially.
Question Where did Homosexual begin in the Bible? Was one of Noah’s family members Gay? Did it originate in the Garden of Eden?
GENESIS 9:22
22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
Did this scripture have anything to do with Homosexuality?
What is sin? What is sin? Not drinking, not smoking, not gambling, not rejecting church. Sin is unbelief. Is that right? He that believeth not is condemned already.
We’ve become a society that wants to convince you that if you come to our church weekly and do what we say you’re saved.
ACTS 16:31
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Are we worried about our salvation? Or are we worried if the church will accept us or not?
I think one of the most marvelous aspects of Christianity is the fact that the gifts God gives to us as individuals are functional regardless of our level of righteousness or lack of sin. They aren’t conditional (unless repentence never occurs?) More specifically, looking at men like Paul Cain and Kevin Prosch…men used greatly by God who admittedly were living in sexual immorality, we can be both encouraged that God uses us in the midst of our frailties, and be warned that the fact that God speaks through someone doesn’t necessarily make them “of God.” (balaam’s ass)
Anonymous,
Are you kidding? Ham looking at his dad’s hoo-hoo obviously meant he was gay? Yah….don’t quite buy it. That incident was an issue of disrespect, not of lust (Ham was poking fun at the old man for getting plastered and showing his ass, and Jehovah took exception to Ham’s sense of fun at Pop’s expense).
And, are you suggesting that God’s rules for the church today are the same as God’s rules in the OT? It sure sounds like you are, and if so, you’ve brought in a whole slough of rules that you aren’t even bothering to account for, let alone justify….and you’re contradicting Jesus. Oops.
How do you know it’s wrong to be a homosexual? If you’re attracted to people of the opposite sex, then yes, it probably would be wrong for you. Bully for you being true to your own sex drive. However, I don’t really understand how you can justify getting into another person’s conscience and telling them what’s right and wrong for them. I don’t understand how Paul could do it, and I don’t understand how you can.
I thought women were supposed to remain silent in church…related forums.
au contraire, f&w…I’m assuming you’re being facetious, in any case..
Besides, could you tell me what was specific to the voice of a woman in what I just wrote? If not, then no dice.
JC
WOW like your line of thinking. You mean to tell me that Ham looked at his father Hoo- Hoo and was cursed for generations. Don’t buy that you got to come up with something cleverer then that. He was disciplined for looking at Him and your saying it OK to do more then LOOK. Doesn’t make sense.
If God rules are so different today then back in the OT we are in trouble. The OT just shadows the NT from Law to Grace but still you have to find the middle of the road or you can take ever thing under Grace.
How do I know it’s wrong to be homosexual? If that was what God wanted from the begging how come he didn’t create a man for Adam?
My question to you JC is when and where did it start from? Homosexual are not something new to this world it dates back to a long time ago.
You don’t understand how I can state my own belief and tell you that I think it wrong to be Gay. Yet we are discussion a subject and your saying that it’s wrong for me to state my beliefs. Sounds kind of contradicting to me.
Let me clear the record and say it’s not that I don’t like people that are Gay. I respect that we live in a society that lets us choose are paths that we want to walk down in life.
The problem lies that we are not leaving the Judgment up to God. We judge from within our own community or church and judge gays very hard and even outcast them from the church but do nothing or look the other way when we see other sin as adultery and other thing that aren’t so offensive to the elder and congregation. That in itself is a whole other issue to deal with, and also wrong.
Anonymous,
I appreciate your thoughtful commentary…it’s good to be discussing things with someone who is willing to discuss them.
That being said, I completely disagree with you.
First off, I still think you’re not quite up on this Noah business. The issue there was NOT sexual, by all accounts. And, if it was, isn’t it a much bigger “problem” that the person you’re lusting after is your FATHER as opposed to the “problem” that he’s another man? Ham wasn’t cursed for incestuous thoughts, he was cursed for being disrespectful to his father….and, I daresay, since dear old dad was both a historical bigwig (having singlehandedly averted the annihilation of our species, according to the history that recorded the story) and he would’ve been the one to pass on a blessing or a curse, it’s not surprising that a curse is on the books for a disrespectful son…particularly since Shem and Japheth ratted Ham out to Noah, who was probably embarrassed of his own questionable behavior. I just don’t think you’re looking at the whole picture, and it’s really best if you let go of this example. I don’t think it illustrates your point.
By now, it’s probably clear to you that I don’t claim fundamentalism, so it may be fruitless for me to continue, but even from a fundamentalist perspective, your arguments have some holes:
The rules have changed. Jesus said so, not me. All things *are* allowable under grace, and therefore, we are obligated to choose…according to Paul, who I generally don’t put all my stock in, but presumably you do.
Why a woman for Adam rather than a man? Um, because the earth needed a population. Today, we’ve got that in spades, so it’s not an issue…the biological situation has altered considerably.
My problem is not with your stating your belief. Obviously, you can believe whatever you want, but unless there’s imminent injury looming upon you or yours, you have no right to say what’s right or wrong for someone else. Your right to believe and impose stops at the borders of your self.
You haven’t “left the judgment to God” — not even a little bit. It’s really not a concession on your part to say that you like gay people….it just means you are able to recognize humanity when you see it (not that I don’t appreciate that and realize that some haven’t even gotten that far…but it is a barebones requirement, kinda like asking for a pat on the back for not beating one’s spouse).
I agree with you that the church’s response to homosexuality in particular is disproportionate, considering how other sexual issues are handled. But, I also think that it’s not our place to say, for the most part, unless people in the community are in imminent danger.
The so-called fundamentalist church values monogamous, legally binding, heterosexual relationships only. That’s a lot of qualifiers, and few people actually wind up living by all of them for their whole lives. Is that sin? Maybe. I don’t get to decide for anyone but me.
JC
Thank you I must say when I asked those question did I at all believed that what I was asking was true. I was hoping to receive a response. I don’t believe for one moment that God would have allowed that to happen to such a great man as Noah. It only goes to show you that even thru all the faith he had. Noah fell short. The difference today is Jesus gave us a pardon for our sin and Noah only had the blood of a sacrificial animal to cover his sins. Still believe that the NT is a shadow of the OT.
One last thing with Ham, Sham and Japheth Question to ponder Out of Noah three sons did three generation of people come out of them Jews, Gentiles, and the Samaritans?
I will say that homosexual has not evolved it has been around for ages. That it is coming out of the closet in the last 40 years is another thing. You may think this issue is closed for me but it was just an example as to maybe you have your answer predetermined and it doesn’t hurt to ask question and learn more. Maybe you have already prejudged me for what I believe. That we will see
The rules have changed. I bet your one of those types that you make up the rules as you play the game. Not so with me. We may be evolving as people and changing but God doesn’t change. His goal is the same from the beginning and that is to get a people that will worship him and. prepare them self for the end time to meet with him.
So we are done populating the earth we can party. I presume that you may think it’s all right if we have relation with animals as well as long as we are attracted to them. I’m not trying to poke fun but in Sodom and Gomorrah was the population over run as well. I wait eagerly to hear your response on this one.
Feel free to comment: What was written at the begging of this topic so I did. By no mean have I said that for one person to be gay there going to die tomorrow. In fact I said that this is the beauty of man kind that we get to make our own decision in life and don’t have to do what someone else said we get to choose. My right to believe absolutely lies with me and like yourself I get to express my beliefs just like you do whether or not we agree.
Whether or not I like gays is irrelevant. What I do know is that to make someone feel less then your self by attacking their lifestyles is not a personal trait of mine or becoming to other people. We need to realize is that we are all sinner saved by one person and that is Jesus Christ. Just because you may like apple pie and I like Cherry does not make us awful people. It just makes us different. To the pat on my back comment Thanks but pat a friend, its not good to pat your self on the back, because when you fall you have no hands to catch yourself.
With that said we try to follow Jesus as an example and I never felt in reading all of his word did he ever make anyone feel less then himself. He talked to them and taught them. Your right that we only get to decide for yourself but talking about thing help each other understands each other.
JC
Read Matthew chapter 10 and tell me what you think that’s not Paul talking that’s Jesus
Jude 1:7 not bad at all either
Talk to you tommorow I’m tired Got to go to work to pay for my internet
Anon,
K, I read Matthew 10…Jesus cites the destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah as a historical occurrence, but other than that, it doesn’t seem to have bearing on this conversation. The passage overall seems to relate to something altogether different. Jude 7 is in the midst of a lot of stuff about judgment, and also gets on S & G (not to be confused with Simon and Garfunkel) long enough to explain why they were in so much trouble.
In Genesis 19:1-11, the behavior of the people of Sodom is described…and it doesn’t sound like being homosexual was their big problem, either. It sounds like they were into gang rape in general…Lot’s gracious offer of his virgin daughters as a consolation prize (gee, what a prince of a guy…honestly, I gotta say I think he’s worse than the gang rape mob — at least they have their mob mentality to blame) implies that they weren’t particular about gender per se. And, in any case, any time that violence and non-consent is involved, the issue for the perpetrator isn’t about sexual preference anymore, but about domination. So, no go.
I haven’t prejudged you for what you believe. I’ve been critical of your overt statements about belief.
Dude, please let the Noah thing go…you’re not making any sense.
Making up the rules as I play the game….how is this relevant? I’ve said several times now that I’m not the one who said the rules changed…Jesus did. Don’t argue with me, I didn’t do it.
The populating the earth bit…I should’ve known better than to bring it up, I suppose. What I meant (and said) was that the biological situation in the Garden of Eden was the simplest explanation for the “one man, one woman” setup there. The setup isn’t the same now, so we perhaps shouldn’t be surprised if the mores change as well. Having sex with animals is a different story altogether…there’s no possibility of equality or consent in that situation, and it’s completely incomparable.
What say you?
for a perspective from people who identify themselves as being gay and as followers of Christ have a look at
http://www.gaychristian.com