An open letter to Don Feder:
Posted on September 21st, 2005 by Reformed Pope into the Uncategorized categoryHey Asshole (http://www.grasstopsusa.com/091405.html),
I just read your thoughts on hurricane Katrina and how it relates to your agenda (which you call it God’s judgment).
You think God is judging New Orleans because of the gay lifestyles there. Now let me ask this question:
WHY DO CHRISTIAN THINK THAT BEING GAY IS THE ONLY SIN THAT GOD HATES THESE DAYS?
I’ll allow the thought that God was judging America, but let’s change the reason to be caused by a pathetic and unloving “Christian” society.
Here is what you said: (oddly enough, this is the same statement that led me to my conclusion)
“Katrina hit New Orleans days before the scheduled Southern Decadence – an annual orgy celebrating alternative death-styles, characterized by nudity and public copulation. New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin, welcomed the freak-fest with the following proclamation: “There is no place like this on Earth! Southern Decadence XXXII is an exciting event. We welcome you and know that you can anticipate great food, great music and great times in New Orleans.” Not to mention great sodomy.”
Let’s see here, “death-styles” and “freak-fest”; I’m not sure that’s how God wants you to respond in times of crisis (this will be hard for you to hear, but God loves the gays as much as he loves you). Instead of Gay-Bashing, why not try to show them the same love that God showed you… remember, when he saved your soul despite its sinful nature.
Thanks for giving the homosexual community another reason to hate Christ and thanks for giving me another reason to hate being associated with Christians,
Yours in Christ,
Johnpaul Morton
P.S. I know it’s hypocritical for me to call you an ass-hole and then rip you for calling the gays names; when my hurricane comes I’ll be sure to take full responsiblity.
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September 21st, 2005 at 2:08 pm
Couple tangents:
It’s hard to keep up with all the judgment. I forget, who was the Tsunami punishing?
Why did god judge New Orleans over Vegas?
If he wanted to smite down the Gays wouldn’t the West Coast be a better target. Is God getting lazy? If you want an easy Armageddon we’ve got Mt. St. Helens between Portland and Seattle for crying out loud. There’s your fire and brimstone baby.
And finally why was I so interested to learn that Tyra Banks breasts are real?
September 22nd, 2005 at 9:48 am
Will there ever be a disaster, natural or otherwise, that people won’t be lining up to place the blame on or give the credit to God? I wonder if He’s up there going, “um, sorry folks, this was just an act of nature.” Maybe it’s easier for some to explain things away than to admit that we don’t always know God’s plan - His ways are higher than ours, remember? But the whole did-He-or-didn’t-He debate is besides the point, especially for Christians. The point now is that there are millions of people in need, as with 9/11, and if God has any sort of influence over our lives we should be out there helping in any way we can. “Hate the sin, love the sinner”, “our war is not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers” - pick your scripture. It all says the same thing. Our job is to show the love of God to people despite their past or their lifestyle. If we wore our sins on the outside instead of hiding them and hoping no one will see, wouldn’t we want people to do the same for us?
September 22nd, 2005 at 10:51 am
Hannah,
I think you get it…unfortunately you are part of the minority.
Christians spend way to much time looking for excuses, looking for ways to deflect attention from their own sins, and looking for someone else to blame.
September 22nd, 2005 at 12:20 pm
Reformed Pope - its an interesting comment you gave back to Hannah. I do agree with the both of you in the fact that we need to stop blaming and pointing fingers. But Reformed Pope, you and Catalyst are pointing fingers, casting blame and resentment towards the church. Is the church not a bunch of sinners as well? What is the difference in being gay and hating gays? No matter which side you’re on, you are still human, therefore still a sinner. So Reformed Pope, my question is why you are picking and choosing the sinners you are to condemn and picking and choosing the sinners you will defend?
September 22nd, 2005 at 12:45 pm
For the record, I don’t think being gay is a sin.
September 22nd, 2005 at 2:46 pm
Anonymous, you’re missing the point. As I said in the casino thread, Christians should hold each other to a higher standard than non-Christians. I believe that includes speaking out against Christian groups/individuals that are spreading hate-filled rants like our esteemed Mr. Feder. You can take the position that we shouldn’t judge or speak out against ANY other sinners, but I don’t believe in standing around while the world goes to hell around me because I refuse to do anything about it.
I’d also be interested to hear your alternative for dealing with other Christians that you feel are straying from Christians ideals with their words and/or actions. Are you willing to allow a fellow brother or sister in Christ fall off the path and risk eternal damnation because you can’t be bothered to show them they’re walking down the wrong path?
September 22nd, 2005 at 2:49 pm
Or let’s use your own logic, anonymous. Why are you picking and choosing to defend the sinners at CBC while picking and choosing what sinners to attack here in RP?
September 22nd, 2005 at 3:37 pm
Feznwik…
I wasn’t attacking RP - unless asking questions is defined as an attack. I was respectfully asking a question and that is all. How in my comment did I condemn or defend anybody - CBC or otherwise?
I beleive in speaking out, but certainly there has to be a third option other than doing nothing and saying (not doing anything tangible) how bad the church is. The reason gays feel outcasted by the church is because - they tell them everything they’re doing wrong. What is the difference in your position if a man strays than to verbally beat on him on a blog? This is trying to get honey by kicking over the beehive. There is a third option to this - what is it? Well first of all, the bible says if a brother strays - warn him and if he does it again - then to leave it to God. So leave it alone AND… and start a church of your own and start a ministry of your own.
Your point of holding christians at a higher standard - yes lets. But that does not mean it is a license to rag on anybody - even a church. Isn’t this the problem at CBC, that they don’t and won’t accept because of this higher standard. The higher standard is to get out and do more through a ministry. The problem is the current ministry in THE CHURCH is failing - that I think we can all agree upon. If you want an answer look at at the Bridge church. They have changed the mentality of church. Instead of a place you have to be perfect to get into - they set up a safe enviornment for anybody so that they can know God and become perfect. So the answer my friend is to stop condemning - even the church. You become what you hate - and the higher standard you speak of has a suspicious similarities to the church you are speaking out against.
croniesong.blogspot.com
September 22nd, 2005 at 5:17 pm
Let me ask a question in return.
When Jesus was here on earth how did he treat sinners? How did he treat religious leaders?
I think the answer to your question lies in 4 overused letters…WWJD.
September 23rd, 2005 at 7:21 am
For the record, I think posting long comments that make no sense is a sin.
September 23rd, 2005 at 7:24 am
“But Reformed Pope, you and Catalyst are pointing fingers, casting blame and resentment towards the church.”
I’d say that comment was a form of condemnation, don’t you? So now why don’t you answer my question?
Also, the reason gays feel like outcasts in the church is the sin most attributed to them has had a huge stigma attached to it by modern church leaders. That has led to what we have today with Bob and Susie churchgoer scared silly of the big bad gay mafia without stopping to realize they’re sinners just like everybody else, no more and no less.
RP also brings up a great point for you that I would like to further with an question. What did Jesus do to the money changers at the temple that tried to make money off of His father’s house? What do you think He would do (or want us to do) to a modern day money changer-led church?
September 23rd, 2005 at 8:03 am
Again, you use the same tactics and responses of the church you are speaking out against. I attended the same church you did for many years (CBC) and they like to use scriptures to prove a point. You, just like them are failing to point out the other scriptures:
“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way as you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”
I posted a reasonable question and am getting slack in return because I have questioned the contributors to this site. Is that the rule on this blog, that you may not question RP or CAT? It sounds similar to the questions that John Paul, Justin and myself once asked the leaders and teachers at Bible Temple. They would get upset for questions and pissed off about hard questions.
Feznik, thanks for your point-of-view as irrelevent as it may be.
September 23rd, 2005 at 8:17 am
If we’re going to talk in terms of what Jesus did:
Jesus turned over the tables of the money changers and drove them out of the temple with a whip. There wasn’t an accompanying natural disaster. So, can we conclude that, in at least some cases, the judgement of God has nothing whatsoever to do with natural disasters.
Instead, let’s take a look at what happened from a human perspective. Jesus felt that the infrastructure of his house of worship had allowed for activities that took the focus away from the main activity of the church as he saw it. He used scripture to conclude that the things happening in the temple were inappropriate, and then he made a very public statement to protest it.
So, Jesus didn’t have a blog. However, if the whole kit and kaboodle of us started throwing tables around and cracking whips at the eldership, I think we’d get ourselves arrested (does anyone else have traumatic childhood memories of people who made unnanounced public statements during services being given the “bum’s rush” out of the CBC/BT sanctuary?).
Yeah, so what would Jesus do? I bet it wouldn’t be pretty…and I’m damn sure it wouldn’t involve pointing the finger at New Orleans and saying it was all the gays’ fault (if y’all want to hold onto the idea that being gay is a sin, period…). Probably Jesus would get off his ass and do something to help.
September 23rd, 2005 at 8:20 am
PS, Anonymous:
It’s quite convenient, I must say, for you to conclude that Fezzik’s point of view is irrelevant…since I’m pretty sure you just don’t want to deal with his points.
September 23rd, 2005 at 8:44 am
when their is a point to be made by Fuzzik, I will address it. But without a POINT, it is irrelevent.
Yes Jesus did turn over the tables, he risked being arrested and was arrested and killed. So don’t compare yourself with Jesus, because you are too concerned with getting in trouble or arrested. Stay on the blog and yap. Jesus said and did. You say and do nothing.
Yes Jesus would help the gays or anyone in need. We could go on all day about what he would or wouldn’t do, what have you done for the people down there. Have you gone down there and risked disease to find bodies living or dead. Have you donated your time at the red cross. Or have you watched the news and “felt bad” for the situation down there? My guess is you’ve done nothing, but I’m sure you’ll respond with something along the lines of you made a donation of money. Not your time, blood and sweat - but the same money you hate the church’s for having.
September 23rd, 2005 at 8:50 am
PS> when someone actually responds to my points instead of rubutting with their own points - please let me know.
September 23rd, 2005 at 9:01 am
You need to quit using out-of-context Scripture to make your point. Both of your examples are Jesus responding to people making unfair judgements by warning them to look at themselves in the mirror before judging others. I have not seen anyone at this blog set themselves as better than City Bible or represent themselves as anything other than former members stating their opinions and experiences. If you disagree with what we are saying, then go ahead and debate OUR points and quit trying to say we’re doing wrong by daring to speak our opinions.
You did not ask a reasonable question. You asked a question meant to distract focus from the topic at hand. If you have a point to make concerning the topic, you should make it and quit playing the “no dissent against the church” card all the time. If you want a topic specifically addressing that issue, I would be glad to take it up with you in that context.
And once again you go off on a tangent with no relation to the topic at hand. What does our response to Katrina have to do with some pastor saying the hurricane was judgement for a gay festival? If the only people that you think have the right to speak out are those who are physically down in the affected area, you better get some duct tape on your own mouth too.
Also, nobody buys your anonymous routine so why don’t you just post as Cattle List and quit trying to make things confusing.
September 23rd, 2005 at 9:03 am
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September 23rd, 2005 at 9:28 am
Hahahaha. You’re mad beceause nobody will respond to your tangents huh? That’s a shame. I don’t see Brian9000 complaining that nobody is responding to his point about Tyra Banks and her 100% real bosoms…which is a much better tangent. By the way, thank you Brian for giving me another distraction this morning…
September 23rd, 2005 at 12:38 pm
Anonymous croniesong (I think),
I actually think you have made some very good points and if you would take the time to read every one of my posts on this site you would see that it is something that I have struggled with.
The problem is when nobody speaks up then you end up with CBC: A church that looses focus on what is important and has no one to keep it in check.
Now you say that all we do is complain but don’t actually do anything and I would have to disagree with that. Would you say that the reporters who rushed to New Orleans after the hurricane weren’t doing anything? Even though the majority of what they did was point out people’s flaws? Was that all for nothing? Look at how quickly the government is reacting to Rita.
Sometimes, talking is doing.
I’ve said it before, but let me reiterate. The problem is that in “Christian” circles no one is allowed to say anything. That is because we all have a log in our own eye. And as soon as you point out the spec, well….
Anonymous, you pointed to the spec (or log or freaking redwood) that I have growing in my eye and I accept that, but by doing so you have proven yourself to be no different then me. And while I won’t say that your opinion is wrong, I will say that it is a little short sighted.
It’s not always easy to do, but sometimes we need to put aside what we learned in Sunday school class and start reading the bible for ourselves. When I did that my life really started to change.
September 23rd, 2005 at 1:10 pm
You know what I read through all of these long comments - bla, bla, bla because my skimming isn’t very good!
September 23rd, 2005 at 1:59 pm
Reformed Pope,
I can respect your response as I am not perfect (we could probably have a spec contest to see who’s is bigger)In regards to complaining and not doing anything. Yes it is true that talking things out (good or bad) can cause great results through actions. In the case of the hurricanes, it appears to have helped. However, writing opinions or what-have-you on a blog is not going to change what you don’t like about the church unless it is followed by an action. I do think that there should be blogs, there definately should be discussion. There should be an outlet for you or anyone else to express how they feel. This I can take nothing away from the blog, but for it to stand for something or to invoke change - there needs to be follow-thru, otherwise you can run the risk of just having a forum for complaining. If that’s all this blog is for then that is your perogative and I will respect that. But I refuse to beleive that you and your brother would take the time to write this blog IF you didn’t really want to see change in the current church - not limited to CBC. I believe the motives of this blog are great and you should stand up for this. I came from the same church - totalitarian church that you did. I, just like you was singled out for having questions, a difference of opinion, and as a result was outcasted. I was “rebellious.” to use their words, a lost sheep. I and you and a ton of other people were abandoned by the church, and sometimes thats not hard to tell the difference between church and god when thats happening. So do I agree for standing up against that? Vehemently YES! But you (everyone) have to do more than just say it. That is all.
www.croniesong.blogspot.com
September 23rd, 2005 at 4:01 pm
I really do not want to make light of a horrible situation, but rather make a point about “God’s judgement logic”:
That being said, it looks like God just judged a bunch of old people: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4275484.stm
September 23rd, 2005 at 4:13 pm
I’m really starting to notice a trend here:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/23/refugee.slain.ap/index.html
So a refugee heads out of town with his Red Cross money in hand and gets shot to death after leaving a night club. His mom says:
“This is how God had it planned,” Sheila Airline said. “He was evacuated out of the storm and out of the storm he gets killed.”
So….. predestined for God’s judgement?
September 23rd, 2005 at 6:14 pm
Homosexuality is a sin as is any sexuality outside of marriage. Don Feder is not a Christian. He does not believe Christ is the Messiah (who, by the way, would forgive all repentant homosexuals and then command them to “go and sin no more”). Don Feder is a Jew.
September 24th, 2005 at 9:00 am
Original Anonymous,
Wah, wah, wah….
Sorry to resort to this, but *good grief* you’re being whiny…and obtuse, to be perfectly honest. People are addressing your points. They’re just not saying what you want to hear. It’s called disagreeing. We’re allowed to do that here.
No, I’m not in New Orleans…I’m in Hungary, studying music education. No, I didn’t send money to the Red Cross…I have none to send. Does this mean I did nothing? I would actually say no. Everyone needs to find their own means for helping to alleviate suffering in the world, their own way to find compassion for their fellow humans on a daily basis. For me, that will necessarily mean something different than what it will mean for you, and all any individual can do is pursue it for themselves.
That being said, it is not only valuable, but necessary to evaluate how we as individuals and groups of individuals go about helping others. Are we doing enough? Are we doing too much? Are we doing the right thing? The day will never come when these questions are irrelevant. We have the right and the responsibility to ask the questions, find the answers, and act. Sometimes acting takes on a table-turning-over form, and sometimes not. Not everything is what it seems. As someone else has already said, sometimes talking (typing) *is* acting. We can only take responsibility for that which we are capable of doing. None of us has the power to singlehandedly enact change at CBC in a direct fashion. We know this because we’ve tried in one way or another to do that. So, instead of staying in and feeling hopeless, we got out and are now coping in the ways that we see fit. No, none of us is doing a perfect job, but I’d like to think that this blog isn’t just representative of mindless venting (although that element is certainly present as well, and rightfully so!). It’s work. It’s real, authentic work at some important level, and to deny people that is truly irresponsible. It may not look how you expect something like that to look, and not everyone may be equally devoted or honest in their motivations here, but I think for the most part, we’re on an important track (I dislike the idea of saying “right”…).
So, to summarize…
We are free. We are responsible.
We have to do as we see fit.
We have to ask questions.
The answers aren’t clear-cut.
If we don’t like what we find out…tough.
October 4th, 2005 at 1:40 pm
Don Feder is not a Christian. He is a fundamental Jew. All of your criticism of Christian hateful people based on Don Feder’s commentary now shows your bias. You assumed he was a Christian because he was against homosexuality. I know lots of non-religious people who know homosexuality is not right nor natural. Homosexuality is a behavior not an identity. And its a proven dangerous and unhealthful behavior at that (more dangerous than taking illegal drugs, over eating or smoking). No other behavior in our society demands these special rights when it is a behavior that is all in all is a burden to society.
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October 25th, 2005 at 4:03 pm
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