Believers do this?
Posted on October 17th, 2005 by Reformed Pope into the PBC categoryThis is from Impassioned Imperfections (http://myguitarzz.wordpress.com/) I thought it was worth posting.
Sometimes you go about thinking that you won’t ever come across something like this, but the more I read it the more I am in shock at what these so called Bible-believing people do to slander the work of God.
For sometime now I’ve known of the blog citybiblewatch.blogspot.com(also known as City Business Church blog) and at times I’ve been disgusted by their sense of entitlement to belittle the work of God. They somehow confuse integrity with flakiness, and emphasis into overbearance. I’ll go through a few areas where I don’t appreciate what they do. These things have brewed over as I’ve seen what kind of stuff this blog produces.
- They claim Forward Together is something the church is doing so somehow the leadership can make more money. I’ve attended CBC for all the years I’ve been here, and I can honestly say that CBC has been completely open to the entire body about their financial dealings. You can go look at their books. Just ask and they’ll be more than willing to tell what happenning with the money you put into the church. It’s horrific to think that so-called believers can slander the work of God. And by the way, financial freedom is something that should be sought out by the local church body. The church body should desire to expand and see more people saved. These and other similar things were what Forward Together was all about. To claim that there is some hidden agenda is almost preposterous.
- They claim Pastor Frank (or PF) is only about ‘giving’ sermons, and that somehow he’s only emphasising one aspect. Seriously if you think about this carefully, you’d realise that the season the church is in right now, expansion and growth are at the forefront. Why shouldn’t a Pastor encourage the believers to give more money. Is it not the responsibility of the body to finance it’s own expansion. Like I said earlier, it’s a season in CBC where that must be emphasised, but it doesn’t mean that’s all that is emphasised. Imagine if you will someone criticizing a farmer because all he does in the months of September and October is harvest. The farmer would nicely tell you that is not the case, but rather it is a season where that’s the emphasis.
There are some good posts and reflections on this blog that I feel should be applauded but the whole basis for this blog was just despicable. I’m not afraid to say it because with every great work that God does, there’s always going to be people who rise up against it.
Here’s what their blog has for it’s follow-up for it’s title:It is not by grace that one enters the kingdom of heaven, but by tithing. - Damazio 3:16
Just despicable. I’m appalled, almost saddened by it. Call me a loyal CBC member who believes in CBC, but according to the Bible if we are not in agreement with leadership the steps we need to take do not include slander, misrepresentation, and twisting of facts. We should rather approach the leadership and hear out the facts, if that does not work then pray, if still you feel ill towards it then leave the church in all humility and love. There is no biblical support for slandering our leadership, be it church or national. It’s wrong and I don’t care if I’m the first blogger to stand up and say it.
Thoroughly Unimpressed,
Ashish Joy
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October 17th, 2005 at 4:46 pm
Great collection of thoughts, Ashish, IF you believe the “leaders” at CBC to be God-ordained and Gospel driven. I, a former CBC member, don’t for a second trust the majority of leaders at CBC and especially PF. Frankly, why should I; I don’t place my faith in men, myself included! They’ve set up a comfortable religious system for themselves that doesn’t involve the cross or grace or selflessness. I would liken it to John 11 where Jesus resurrects Lazarus from the dead causing the religious leaders of the day to plot His death in fear of backlash from the Roman empire. CBC has a cushy deal with it’s laity, whereby any disruption from this radical Jesus fellow would put a serious crimp in their cash flow and severely damage their public image. Someday CBC and churches like it will have to wake up and die to themselves and their lust for city wide dominance. Reaching an attendance of 20,000 members won’t secure yourself a place at the right hand of God, but it will line your pockets and stroke your ego.
October 17th, 2005 at 5:01 pm
“…I am in shock at what these so called Bible-believing people do to slander the work of God.”
I am shocked that all these blog bashers don’t understand that we are equating them to the Pharisee. That’s right, the same sort of religious know-it-all that earned the wrath of Jesus way back in the day. City Bible IS NOT THE WORK OF GOD, it is the fabrication of man, specifically a man named Frank. Christ’s church will not look like a business, a corporation, a political lobby, or a country club. You certainly wouldn’t call what Jesus said about the Pharisees to be “slander”, so please don’t distract from the real issues here by attacking this blog.
October 17th, 2005 at 5:31 pm
“They claim Forward Together is something the church is doing so somehow the leadership can make more money…I can honestly say that CBC has been completely open to the entire body about their financial dealings.”
If you consider an ambiguous pie chart at the end of the year to be a “completely open” record of their financial dealings, then I think you are a bit naive. They lied about the distribution of funds from the Pay It Forward Together Campaign; that’s the only bottom line I’m concerned with. They sold the campaign to the church on a platform of deficit elimination, much like the Republicans have been doing for decades when seeking election. Empty promises have earned PF a healthy sum. Lucky for him, under the New Covenant, judgement is reserved for the throne of God, and not exacted here on earth. So let the tithe/Faith Harvest/Forward Together/Acts 2/missions/offering/Saints Relief/Business With a Purpose checks keep rolling in!
October 17th, 2005 at 5:45 pm
“Imagine if you will someone criticizing a farmer because all he does in the months of September and October is harvest”
Analogy selection receives a failing grade, sorry Ashish. What farmer harvests January through December? Are you talking about money or souls? Is head-hunting Christians from other churches considered harvesting? Why aren’t City Bible-onians tithing regularly? Is this an indication of diseased crops? I didn’t attend Oregon State, so my knowledge of farming is limited, but can you answer any of these questions with your harvest:Forward Together comparison? Focus on the cross and the simplicity of the Gospel and budget shortfalls won’t be a concern, I assure you!
October 17th, 2005 at 7:32 pm
I smell a N.Z. around here…
October 17th, 2005 at 8:16 pm
What does New Zealand have to do with any of this? Leave them out of it!
October 19th, 2005 at 2:20 pm
To the first anonymous, if the church reaches 20,000 and even one fourth of the new people which would be somewhere around 15,000 people were brand new christians who got saved at city bible….. I would say that it is worth the time and energy and money. It would be around 3,500 new christians that most likely would not have gotten saved otherwise. I think that it would be worth it if only 1 person got saved. I will continue to support, with money and time City Bible. Yes more peopel would bring in more money, it is only logical, but new people will be saved. To the post about CBC Head hunting other churches back up your post with any factual response. Your post is completely unthought through. Think before you post next time.
October 19th, 2005 at 3:45 pm
If your goal is to see 15,000 saved, why not just plant new churches throughout the metro area?
Why do they have to be CBC brand churches?
If you look at how much it costs for a church plant vs how much to build a new CBC location it just doesn’t make sense.
Of course it really isn’t about seeing people saved.
October 19th, 2005 at 4:11 pm
It really cost the same amount…The Church plant just has less structure and is not as organized. The new church plant just has less resources to build and get a building.
October 19th, 2005 at 11:00 pm
I just joined a Bible Study on Galatians and met a married couple there who met Mark Estes while conducting some business with him. Mark, having already heard they were saved and involved in a local church body, invites them to attend CBC. They thank him but again reminding him that they are already members of a community of believers elsewhere in Portland. My point is this, was Mark interested in them because he saw an opportunity to preach the Gospel and reach out to them? Or was it because they were young, hip and successful, and would fit right in to the whole GU/Abercrombe world he was wrapped up in? By the way, when they politely declined the invite to CBC, he not only didn’t conduct business with them, he never returned their phone calls from that day forward.
October 19th, 2005 at 11:06 pm
If CBC doesn’t head hunt, then where did PF and Mark Estes come from? Does CBC have a farm team in South Lake Tahoe and Eugene that we don’t know about? How about Mark Strauss? Another example of a paid minister responding to an employment vacancy from an outside ministry. Cherry picking and head hunting happen at many levels of CBC life, that is the ebb and flow of mega church life.
October 20th, 2005 at 6:38 am
I’ve gotta say, no elder takes a bigger beating than Marc Estes. well, exept maybe Doug Lasit.
October 24th, 2005 at 8:16 am
You can talk about alleged church growth at CBC, but the simple fact remains, that over the past 5 years, attendance at CBC has steadily decreased to the point that they actually removed half of the seating so it wouldn’t be so painfully obvious that they were half empty. You can talk more about how tithing and contributing to various programs there are intended to bring more people into the church but you cannot show evidence that any of it has actually contributed to real church growth. The whole point of this blog (as I understand it) was to point out that they’re focusing on the wrong message, i.e., finances vs. the Gospel (which creates real church growth).
September 4th, 2006 at 6:54 am
I must disagree with you on this. Why not create a culture where the church sends out church plants that “think independently, but are networked relationally.” That used to be the goal of MFI and CBC, but the more you look at it, the more it looks like a traditional denomination. Trying to keep the harvest for themselves, when you could share with everyone. It does stink of religious hypocrisy. Just ask the elders who have left in the last ten years to go plant churches in the area if they were encouraged to follow God’s leading or if they were discouraged and told that they did not know what God’s will for their life was. Bringing up a Biblical illustration from my PBC days, CBC looks to me like the Dead Sea. Trying to keep all of the “water” to itself and not letting any flow out will eventually lead to a “dead church.”
September 6th, 2006 at 9:24 am
Those of us who have been hurt and or weirded out by CBC/PBC have a right to our feelings and the freedom to express them. Right or wrong, talking about it can definitely help bring healing. I think that every church has issues, some more frequent and obvious than others, but when it comes down to it, it’s about Jesus. If you go to CBC and God is working in your life and you have encouraging relationships with other believers, knock yourself out! It wasn’t my scene, but I know some great people that go there. I can’t vouch for the leadership because I don’t know them, but even if they are totally screwing the pooch, a blog certainly isn’t going to bring them down. It’s simply a place to talk. So don’t take it so personal if some people say things that are offensive, and certainly don’t question somebody’s salvation over it. We all have our problems, and even my best days our clouded by sin. So, maybe we should seek a little more reconciliation and a little less hateration.