He said, Ashish said…
Posted on October 17th, 2005 by Reformed Pope into the Uncategorized, PBC categoryThis is in response to the post Beliver’s Do This? (listed below)
Ashish,
First, let me thank you for taking the time to read our little blog. It means a lot to us that PBC students are studying our work. I would like to take a moment to discuss a few of your points.
You say:
1. They claim Forward Together is something the church is doing so somehow the leadership can make more money.
-I’ve never said that and I don’t believe it. The leadership is not out for personal gain, but seems to care too much about the image of CBC. It’s more of a corporate money problem then an individual money problem.
2. Financial freedom is something that should be sought out by the local church.
-I Agree
3. The church body should desire to expand and see more people saved.
-I Agree
4. These and other similar things were what Forward Together was all about. -No
-Sorry, but Forward Together is about the expansion of CBC’s kingdom and not the kingdom of God.
5. Just ask and they’ll be more than willing to tell [you] what [is] happening with the money you put into the church.
-Has anyone ever actually tried this? I’m just curious. I don’t need to know the results, but I’ll bet no one has “dared” to question them.
6. They claim Pastor Frank (or PF) is only about ‘giving’ sermons, and that somehow he’s only emphasizing one aspect.
-I spent 10 years @ CBC and from every November through every January all we heard about was Faith Harvest (giving). Now, by my calculations that equals 1/4th of all sermons preached each year. Combine that with the “tithing” sermons slipped in every couple of months and you’ve got 1 in 3 sermons being preached on giving. If that ratio was set somewhere in the Bible I wouldn’t complain, but I just can’t seem to find it.
7. …you’d realize that the season the church is in right now, expansion and growth are at the forefront.
-Season? What is this Hockey? That’s one hell of a "season".
8. There is no biblical support for slandering our leadership.
-Probably true, when you look at CBC leadership as “elders of Christ’s church”; however if you see them as misled Pharisee’s there’s a bit more room to move.
I think if you stop idolizing CBC’s leaders and really listened and watched what was going on you would be equally “Unimpressed”. I for one am appalled.
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October 17th, 2005 at 11:09 pm
In an address I was giving a group of Christian leaders a while back I made the point that we are missing something in this generation. Something that was very key to the last generation, the baby boomers; a generation war (we called it a gap back then). Here are some observations by some observers of generations. The so called Generation X failed to make its mark outside of crating word like angst, which they are full of, they created almost no music genre of it’s own (no, alternative was just re-hashed 70s hard rock). It failed to stand up to the Baby Boomers and say, “no, we won’t go your way… we rebel”.
And low and behold I come on your site. I think it’s interesting. I check back from time to time to find that you are still at it. Not just a post now and then, but everyday! Man, there is something fueling these guys; disappointment?(the most common Gen X feeling), nope, way to smart and edgy for that? Hatred? Naw, seems more like dislike. So what is fueling these guys? Could it be that it’s the generation gap? Hey wait a unite, there might be something to that.
Go over to the CBC website and low and behold it’s the “Executive Pastoral Staff” are all baby boomers. Look into it a bit further and there are guys like Howard Rachinski (no picture enclosed) who we find out is the same Howard Rachinski of CCLI. Hey this guys really created something, he made found a nits where there was no one doing copyright licensing, to this day CCLI is the only game in that world. Now I talk to some of my people in the know and it turns out that most of these guys are type A Baby Boomers. That means these guys are driven to create stuff, to make things happen. Maybe they are like the baby boomers that lead today’s industry and business world (maybe that is where you guys really have a problem).
My point is this (and keep your comments to this point please). Maybe this site is more about a generation war between Gen X and the Baby Boomers that are running so much of today’s society that they revolutionized and created. By the way, I can tell by the language, references and other referenced websites that your contributors are mostly Xers.
So here is my big question; are you guys saying “Hey this is no way to do church?” or are you just haters? I like an honest answer because this could be interesting. Because you are either being fueled by anger and hatred or by values.
The Formerly Silent
October 18th, 2005 at 7:45 am
I agree with you. There is a generation gap, and that is fueling a large part of this disagreement with City Bible.
I think Gen Xers are looking for something a little more substantive. Something less showy and more real.
And I’ll ad my own little political dig here. If the WWII generation, according to Tom Brokaw, was the “Greatest Generation.” Then the Baby Boomers are the Worst Generation.
The best they can do for Presidents is Bill Clinton and George W. Bush. Are you freaking kidding me???? One guy couldn’t keep his keep pants up, and the other guy runs around acting completely on instinct, and then fails to admit when he makes a mistake. They both share a similar character trait: Arrogance.
I hate Generation Lingo. I think it stereotypes a group of people, when in fact there are plenty of differences, but at this point I’m not too impressed with the older generation, and by older I mean anyone over 45.
They appear selfish and out of touch with reality.
October 18th, 2005 at 8:01 am
Why should we keep comments to a tangential point? You have drawn no parallels between your Gen X theory and the points given above about CBC’s theological shortcomings as relates to money. Until you do that, I see no reason to debate your theory because you’re ignoring the established points that have been made here and trying to insert an underlying reason for this blog other than the obvious one that has been asserted here from the beginning.
As for your generational point, how do you explain the fact that there are Baby Boomers that participate on and agree with this blog?
October 18th, 2005 at 8:07 am
When you make accusations based on a “generation” you are obviously not 100% accurate about all people.
Its a generalization.
I do think a “generation” gap plays a large part in how 20 somethings view the church versus how 50 somethings view the church.
Of course, there will be older people who agree with our blog, in the same sense that there are young people who agree with City Bible’s practices.
That said, I’m still not impressed with the Baby Boomers. This of course has little to do with church, but more to do with my own biases.
October 18th, 2005 at 8:50 am
I don’t see any of the issues brought to light in this blog as generational issues. The are biblical issues. Pastors are not CEOs, they are called to love their people (that means even mingling with them and knowing their names). The Church is Christ’s bride, not a business. I’m glad people are addressing the hunger for real biblical fellowship that we all have.
October 18th, 2005 at 9:20 am
I feel like there is a sense of disappoinment about what was promised and what was delivered to Gen X as far as Christianity goes. I had high hopes as a young person about what can be accomplished in the world spreading the love of Christ, etc. Then I saw reality. I saw that Megachurches repurpose scripture methodically to fit their own purpose and they seem to lose sight of the basics of Christianity. I think this is why we have a problem. For me, it is more of a value thing than anything else. I see the abuse of power and emphasis on money and I ask “To what end?”
I’m a former PBC attendee for a few years until I decided to finish my degree at a University and I attended CBC as well.
I’m not meaning to unleash any attacks on Ghandi with the following quote so please just take it for what it is, a succinct observation on the impression made by Christians to the world at large. I think it really sums up some of the feelings we have about church, since church is generally where we see the largest concentration of Christians:
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
October 18th, 2005 at 11:31 am
My point is if this blog is just a generational thing, other generations won’t be able to identify with the issues we raise because of differing perspectives. I think trying to take a generational spin to it is ignoring the bigger issues raised here that affect ALL generations. The only difference with our generation is we tend to put a more skeptical eye on authority because of the recent trend towards increased corruption by the different authorities in our lives from government leaders to business leaders to church leaders. It’s that skepticism that leads us to speak up about organizational flaws where our parents and grandparents were taught to be quiet and behave. It doesn’t mean the flaws weren’t there, it’s just that no one mentioned them in public because it was culturally taboo.
October 18th, 2005 at 2:14 pm
I have been watching this blog for the last several months. It amazes me how deeply hurt and disenfranchized some of the posters are. For this, my heart is saddened. I think it is good that people have a place to come together to discuss their hurts and concerns for a congregation that has obviously touched a lot of lives (positively or not.)
I would be careful, though, to examine how you judge Pastor Frank and the church. Do we really presume to know all of Frank’s motives and heart? I know I don’t…any more than I presume to know any of yours. We know for a fact that he is subject to the same sinful nature that is in all of us. It seems to me that there are only three possibilities regarding Frank’s concepts and practice of tithing and fund-raising. Either he’s wrong, and he knows it. He’s wrong and he doesn’t know it. Or, he’s right.
I don’t know about you, but I don’t pretend to have God and his infinite nature even close to figured out. I leave room for the possibility that some of my thinking could be flawed…that my views of Christ and his way of doing things are a bit limited. In fact, the Bible confuses me in a lot of ways. I consider myself and intelligent and educated man. But, I can’t fully wrap my mind around the Word.
All of this is to say, that our judgements are influenced by our own potentially flawed intelects. I don’t believe in relativism. I do believe that the Word of God stands as truth. I also believe that the Holy Spirit illuminates the Word to reveal its truth to us. So, in all that the Spirit is showing you, is CBC at fault? Have you left room for God to work in mysterious ways without contradicting his own nature? If the answer is yes, than I pray that God changes Frank’s heart and brings him into alignment with His truth. And that CBC follows suit. If the answer is no, than I pray God would change our hearts to better see what he’s doing through CBC and Pastor Frank.
At any rate, I think we all have some praying to do.
October 18th, 2005 at 5:14 pm
I for one tend to agree with the Not So Silent comment. I’m sure a lot of what we say and do here on this site is based on an attempt to form a “generation gap”. Fortunately it doesn’t mean what we say is wrong. And it certainly is no excuse to dismiss us, after all “We didn’t start the fire; no we didn’t light it, but we’re trying to fight it. We didn’t start the fire.”
You’ve got to hand it to the Baby Boomers though; every time my generation tried to rebel and create our own “gap” they told us to go freaking stand in it. They just wouldn’t let us leave. How many times have you been at church and heard some middle aged pastor say “We need to stand in the gap for this generation”? Well guess what, maybe this generation doesn’t want you standing in their gap.
Maybe, that’s why we are all leaving your churches. Maybe, we just don’t care about your plasma screen TV’s and you fancy light shows. Maybe, we aren’t satisfied just HEARING about the Bible. Maybe we would actually like to be able to open it on a Sunday morning and actually learn something of value. Maybe we don’t want you to just run off a list of 8 scriptures that you found to back up your sermon on “Forgiveness”. Maybe, we think Tony Robbins is full of shit too. And maybe, just maybe, we may be right.
OK, let’s make this official:
Dear Mega-Church Pastors of America,
“Hey this is no way to do church?”.
October 18th, 2005 at 6:21 pm
If Patient Passion’s thoughts are the last thing I read on this blog, I’ll be just fine with that. I agree wholeheartedly!
(By the way: who are you?)
October 20th, 2005 at 3:13 pm
Formerly Silent:
“Hey this is no way to do church!” is my core message about CBC. I’m not a hater, nor do I think most of the bloggers here are.
You raise some very valid points about generational matters. However, generational differences don’t factor into my concerns with CBC at all. As others have said, my concerns are Biblically based and have it do with how Christianity should and shouldn’t be done, period.
November 4th, 2005 at 5:35 pm
I just came across your blog and wanted to drop you a note telling you how impressed I was with the information you have posted here.
I also have a web site & blog about Plasma Television so I know what I’m talking about when I say your site is top-notch! Keep up the great work!
November 17th, 2006 at 3:58 pm
Ashish said, “I think there is no biblical support for slandering our leadership.”
Hi Ashish, I would like to recommend that you look up the definition of “slander.”
November 17th, 2006 at 5:16 pm
From one in between the two generations this blog is not about that issue.
It is about there must be a better way. Most definately. Perhaps you need to go
back and read through the entire blog from start to finish like I did before I even dared put forth a comment-or form a judgment about these people.
Could I read it and tell there were alot of people on here younger than me and of another generation –certainly! But you will find truth is truth whether they are 20 something or 50 plus. We have all had it with the elitism we saw and experienced that led to a position of wealth for the few. What we are saying is this is not Biblical and if it was just CBC than it would be just about that church.
Many of us are attending other church’s –mainly MFI related that have these core doctrinal issues. We are just trying to sort out what is wrong with this picture. Read it and weep for it’s your brothers and sisters in the Lord. We were hurt but we’re getting better blogging our feelings –we are crushed but not broken. Maybe angry for a season but not bitter. The ones to be more concerned about are those who are out there with no voice living despondently over Christianity. Whew that was a lot to say! Now time for some humor –guys?