Here is a recent comment from reader “Patient Passion.” (Where do people come up with these names?) Anyway, I thought it a strong enough statement to deserves its own thread:
I have been watching this blog for the last several months. It amazes me how deeply hurt and disenfranchized some of the posters are. For this, my heart is saddened. I think it is good that people have a place to come together to discuss their hurts and concerns for a congregation that has obviously touched a lot of lives (positively or not.)
I would be careful, though, to examine how you judge Pastor Frank and the church. Do we really presume to know all of Frank’s motives and heart? I know I don’t…any more than I presume to know any of yours. We know for a fact that he is subject to the same sinful nature that is in all of us. It seems to me that there are only three possibilities regarding Frank’s concepts and practice of tithing and fund-raising. Either he’s wrong, and he knows it. He’s wrong and he doesn’t know it. Or, he’s right.
I don’t know about you, but I don’t pretend to have God and his infinite nature even close to figured out. I leave room for the possibility that some of my thinking could be flawed…that my views of Christ and his way of doing things are a bit limited. In fact, the Bible confuses me in a lot of ways. I consider myself and intelligent and educated man. But, I can’t fully wrap my mind around the Word.
All of this is to say, that our judgements are influenced by our own potentially flawed intelects. I don’t believe in relativism. I do believe that the Word of God stands as truth. I also believe that the Holy Spirit illuminates the Word to reveal its truth to us. So, in all that the Spirit is showing you, is CBC at fault? Have you left room for God to work in mysterious ways without contradicting his own nature? If the answer is yes, than I pray that God changes Frank’s heart and brings him into alignment with His truth. And that CBC follows suit. If the answer is no, than I pray God would change our hearts to better see what he’s doing through CBC and Pastor Frank.
At any rate, I think we all have some praying to do.
And now my rebuttal:
Patient Passion,
Apparently, your answer to this CBC dilemma is prayer. Well, guess what, I think that’s a copout.
Prayer isn’t the answer to everything. Sometimes people need to act, and speak out against immoral actions.
And that’s what we do here. Trust me, it’s a lot harder to take a stand and risk ridicule than it is to sit in your comfy home and pray that everything will work out.
Great post Patient Passion, a few observations. 1- “Do we really presume to know all of Frank’s motives and heart? I know I don’t…any more than I presume to know any of yours.”
We can’t know his motives but we can know his actions and words and come to conclusions about what may be important to the guy. And some have sat in pews at CBC longer than others and have a good feel for what is important by what is communicated and more importantly what is not communicated (ie the message of the cross).
2- “I do believe that the Word of God stands as truth. I also believe that the Holy Spirit illuminates the Word to reveal its truth to us. So, in all that the Spirit is showing you, is CBC at fault?”
Yes CBC is at fault for the disregard of the word of God by not letting it have preimmenance (?)therefore the Spirit has very, very few oppertunities to illuminate the truth and speak to His people. Christians should be able to grow by good preaching, at CBC believers seem only to be able to grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ in spite the “preaching”. And that is what is so mysterious to me.
Finally I think that Catalyst is clueless to the purpose and power of prayer. I will continue to pray for PF and CBCers and at the time tell anyone who will listen to leave a man centered “church”.
Geez Mom,
Did you have to say that Catalyst was clueless? You know how sensitive he is.
I spent 20yrs praying and it didn’t amount to anything. No real good and no real harm. I haven’t prayed or tithed in 5yrs and I’m just as happy and fulfilled as ever. And this way I get to masterbate with out gilt.
First, you’re absolutely right, I am clueless to the power and purpose of prayer. I don’t get it. But let me say, after 20 years of praying and going to church, if I didn’t get it then, I don’t think I’m ever going to get it.
Second, I would take “Fed Ups” position a step further and say, I’m happier and more fulfilled now that I’ve stopped praying and reading the Bible. I feel great. My life is great, and I’m incredibly happy.
This isn’t to knock people who pray. I’m sure its very helpful to you. It just doesn’t do anything for me. Maybe prayer isn’t for everyone. It’s not my gift. My gift is “Drinking in remembrance of Him.” – Luke 22:19
That said, the minute I find myself in the smallest crisis, you can be rest assured I’ll be on my knees and in prayer.
PP,
Nice adaptation of CS Lewis’ “3 possibilities” logical model.
However, you derailed significantly. You’re lost in what you’re trying to keep yourself convinced of: that you don’t know the answer. First, you said that we should all keep questioning ourselves. On this point, I wholly agree. Deciding that we’re done with learning things is a poor idea. You then said that we shouldn’t ever come to conclusions about God and God’s ways, but then said you don’t believe in relativism. That seems really shady to me. Where is the line drawn? Is it that *you* aren’t allowed to say that *you* know the answer, but the room full of white guys who compiled the Bible somehow did know the answer? Or that Frank and Co. know the answers? You’re willing to disenfranchise yourself (to borrow your verbage) to that extent, really and truly? I don’t buy it.
We make judgment calls all the time. We look at data, assess the situation, and act. Then we do it again…it’s perpetual, and it’s survival. So why not about this? Why are you advocating the idea that we must endlessly question our own motivations and assessments, but wholeheartedly invest in those of others, just because it’s not polite to believe in your own point of view? No, no, no. I smell fear here, not Patient Passion.
I don’t think you’re afraid you don’t know the answers and are consequently hesitant to say that CBC is wrong. I think you’re afraid that you do, that you are responsible, that the world is as big as you could possibly imagine and you’re responsible for living in it and choosing how you go about your life. Belonging to CBC, choosing to believe in any organization that all-encompassing is just a form of escapism. It’s just like heavy drinking or smoking pot…incapacitating the ability to think clearly in order to completely avoid it.
No thanks….I’m driving.
Applying Lewis’ “Liar, Lunatic or Lord” logic to PF is rather scary (in that any inkling that PF is in the same category as Christ or worth creating logic for is ridiculous), although I do track with you on that, PP.
We don’t need to know all of anyone’s motives or heart; no one here claims to know CBC’s or its pastor’s. We don’t need to know motives or heart to form opinions about actions and results. “You shall know a tree by its fruit,” Luke 6:44. Much of CBC’s “fruit” is rotten; rotten fruit makes those who ingest it sick. That’s the point. Those of us who blog here got sick of ingesting rotten fruit, got sick of being sick from it, and stopped eating it. Legalism, hierarchy, shame, guilt, double-living, isolation from sinners, and other CBC fruits are not the fruits Christ calls us to bear.
PP, I’m very concerned that you seem to equate this blog’s perspective of CBC with our perspective of God himself. This blog criticizes CBC, not Jesus. Of course our sin and experience (amongst other things) impact our view of God. They impact our view of everything.
Speaking for myself, this blog is just one tiny piece of my life, not the focal point or even a large piece. I spend maybe 30 minutes per week on it. No, I don’t spend 30 minutes per week praying for CBC. That theoretically could be a nice balance, but I gave enough time to CBC in my past. I know CBC well enough to know that this blog won’t change them. This blog isn’t “for” them, it’s for the refugees who are in various stages of healing from all the serious damage that place did to us in the past. I’m 90% over it, and don’t think much of it all (so no need to tell me to “move on”), but I still get incensed when I hear yet another person’s story of how they were destroyed by the people and theology in that system, and I know the system is larger than CBC, damaging people elsewhere. If we don’t expose it, don’t name it, don’t discuss it, how can we be free from its power?