I just received an email from an ex-PBC student. She gave me permission to share her email. Her thoughts are honest and revealing. I always enjoy meeting others who have left City Bible and share similar feelings. I find her testimony incredibly inspiring. This is the type of honest emotion you rarely see from the pulpit, and it makes me glad I started this blog.
By the way, I sort of think a blog should be started about PBC. There are a lot of people that I know (myself included) who left PBC in a haze and then got f*cked up when they had to deal with reality, after being told they “had a destiny.” I now know that those who “had a destiny” were those who were related or children of MFI pastors.
I for one was told that PBC had accredidation w/ PSU, but when I transferred to PSU, they only took two ‘F’s I got from PE, thanks to STeve Cole. So, I started from scratch…two years at MHCC, and then two years at PSU. I took those F’s and put straight A’s against them, and graduated with a 3.8GPA from PSU with a degree in English.
I have a lot of issues with PBC AND CBC. What was amazing to me is that I thought all these years that I was completely alone in my thoughts on CBC. I used to count the number of Sundays that came and went that neither Frank NOR Jack would crack the Bible. IT was all about the prophetic and saying whatever the Spirit told them to say.
I was looking for something a LOT more grounded. I ended up hanging out with Mult. Bible College students, and when I told the Wager’s that I was considering transferring to Multnomah Bible College, because they had an excellent missions’ program, they scoffed at me and told me they disagreed with my decision, and if I chose to do that, I would no longer be ‘under their wing.’
Anyway, I left CBC, no one noticed or cared, and I am sooo much happier now. I met my husband at Biddy McGraw’s Irish Pub, and we are doing great.
My husband doesn’t have a religious back-ground at all, and so many times, I’ve felt envious of him. He is so much more open-minded & carefree about spirituality & churches in general. Me…I’ve got a big chip on my shoulder, and any time I go into a church that reminds me of CBC, I can’t wait until the service is over. I think there are so many of us out there that have our religious beliefs & spiritual values, but do not want to be a part of the corporate church–and, CBC is a prime example of this.
About a year ago, I went to a bridal shower for this girl I know & Glenda Malmin was there. She used to be my ‘mentor’ at PBC. This is how the conversation went:
G: “Hi K, What church are you going to?”
K: “I don’t go to church.”
G: “You don’t go to church?”
K: “No.”
G: “Comeon, Angie. Let’s go into the kitchen.”
They turned their backs on me right then and there.
Well, anyway, I commend you for having the guts to take a stand & speak up for what you believe is right. So many people up on the hill & those who have left have never done that. Nothing will ever change unless people speak up & those up on the hill take accountability for their actions.
I always thought that PBC was a little “off.” (Best word I can come up with) I worked with a guy who attended there years ago.
Don’t let the nonsense make you TOO cynical.
How many of us have been on the receiving end of that conversation.
The sad thing is that if you would have told them “A church that isn’t CBC”, you would have gotten the same results.
This blog may be funny, but the truth is really rather sad.
does anger bubble up inside when anyone one else reads these blogs or is it just me
Karli, I’m sorry you had to endure that kind of treatment from GM, but consider the source. GM was also my “mentor” (in label ONLY), and both during and after the “mentor” thing, nearly everything she said to me was ridiculous. Oh, I’ve had “lovely” conversations with the Wagars, too, when I voiced an opinion that differed from their narrow view of God. All I can say is that the only “wing” I want to be under is the Lord’s–everyone else has stinky armpits.
As long as you’re not at CBC or some other MFI church (that both gives $$ TO and takes direction FROM–what kind of WEIRD set-up is that?!), “they” think you’ve squandered God’s will for your life (like that’s possible!). Literally, no one exists for them outside of that little bubble (forgive the intended pun).
You’re right, we could easily fill many blogs with non-fiction “stories” of PBC and related commentaries. Don’t even get me started on what jokes PBC’s “academics” (LOOSE term) and “moral code” are. If anyone wants to take on that topic, count me in!
Anon
The problem is that it seems completely impossible to have a normal and interesting conversation with so many conservative Christians out there. I know for me that the conversation with GM could have been completely different had I not been left thinking that the only thing that mattered to her where I was concerned was whether or not I went to church, and a church that was considered ‘spirit-filled’ at that.
What happened to asking others questions about their interests? Say I was attending a Unitarian church…why not ask how I liked it or what I liked about it? A Unitarian church is nothing like CBC, so what better way to find out more about what it is like to attend a Unitarian church than to ask a Unitarian church-goer. Or, discussing with me what I like and don’t like about NOT attending church. There is so much judgement from others. That is what is so frustrating. My heart is actually right…and I am in pursuit after a rich inner-life, and however I go about that is up to me. People need to be SO MUCH more open-minded when it comes to spirituality. I think people out there need to be interested in what other people are pursuing and their realities instead of constantly trying to pull them into their own reality.
The conversation with GM is nothing new…I had the same kind of conversation with many of the leaders at both CBC and PBC. It was always a conversation about trying to get me to be someone that I am not. Someone I never did or ever want to be. A healthy church that flourishes is a church that encourages diversity and appreciates each individual for their unique contributions. No, I never wanted to dress like everyone at CBC, and no, I never wanted to wait until my wedding day to make-out with a guy. Yes, I think dating is a GOOD thing. No, I was never into Christian music, and yes, I enjoy watching rated R movies. No, I don’t think obedience is healthy in marriage. I enjoy drinking all kinds of alcoholic beverages, and I drink responsibly. I feel spiritually alive on a hike through the woods and in an occasional moment of silence and meditation. I love really listening to others talk about their experiences in life. I don’t feel like I have to identify with their experience in order to be a good listener, and I don’t feel compelled to convince them that my way is better. I do have a rich inner life, and am in pursuit of a still richer one. I take time for reflection, and think analytically about political, ethical, spiritual, and personal issues. No, I do not attend an MFI church or any church at all for that matter.
Those people that shut me out as soon as they find out I no longer go to church will never know any of these things about me. And you know what, that’s okay, because I know these things about myself…and, that is what really matters…to really KNOW yourself & what you believe.
Anonymous also likes long walks on the beach…candlelight dinners…and men with dogs.
This is one of the best comments ever: “no, I never wanted to wait until my wedding day to make-out with a guy.”
Neither did I and I didn’t know that’s how “good” christians were “supposed” to behave until I had the pleasure of attending PBC where they tried to seriously warp my views on, well, pretty much everything. Can we just talk for a minute about how much hypocrisy is there with the whole . . . “I don’t kiss before I’m married thing?” I’ve seen people make out while they were dating and then get praised at their wedding ceremony for not kissing. Whatever. I’m not slamming anyone who does this for real, but lying about it isn’t a good thing!
A PBC blog would supply fodder for a LONG time. Many, many people have had the same kind of experience that the ex-PBC emailed about. Countless people had to basically start their education all over again at an accredited institution to get an actual degree. And we haven’t even started to discuss the emotional trauma experienced by students or former students who had the same disillusioning experience mentioned here.
Sorry about the ramble but there are a lot of feelings that many of us have about this stuff.
We need to model what we want churches and christians to look like, and it is very hard to do so when your caught up in another churches bull shit. We need to put Christ first in our own lives and not just say that that is what other Christians should do. “Have you been with me so long and yet you do not know me.”
I’ll say this again because it got no response, but it is true. I feel for you anon that you can’t dialouge with so called conservative christians, but what about Christ? Your statement “that is what really matters…to really KNOW yourself & what you believe.” I know that is how you truely feel but it leaves out what mattters most which is to know Jesus. Also your comment ” Nothing will ever change unless people speak up & those up on the hill take accountability for their actions.” Speaks nothing of the Lord and Him enterviening(?) in the affairs of CBC or PBC and asking Him to do so, forgive me for being so brief on such issues.
Ain’t that the truth, last Anon. I had a conversation yesterday from a friend who is concerned for my soul because I stopped running on the CBC hamster wheel.
This friend said that when a branch is cut off from the tree it looks green for awhile, but then it dies and is thrown into the fire. My reply was that Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. Since when has the church replaced Jesus?
I was a PBC survivor, but only for one year, and that year nearly killed me. I came from a very strict (or so I thought) Christian upbringing but nothing could prepare me for the emotional beating I took there from the faculty. I lost two years of my life by attending PBC, one in school, and one out of school working to pay off my PBC bill and trying to get my head straight again. I guess a wiser man would have stopped going to CBC as well…
I also received some questionable grading and I’m glad that I never attempted to transfer those alleged grades to a REAL college. Those that know me know I’m not an idiot and that school was something I enjoyed. I graduated from PSU with a BS in Computer Science, although it was a struggle not to go to school for music instead (I’d had a decade of classical music training). I’ve always been an avid reader and I can write “A” papers in my sleep. So imagine my suprise when Alynne Shinness gave me 2 failing grades in her music classes for technicalities (probably for similar reasons as the original poster) and I received a poor grade in one of Bob Wagar’s classes where most of the grade was based on our essays. I’m still angry about that.
What “doctrine” I learned – aka Kevin Conner’s personal opinions on the Bible – I’ve since recanted, and reevaluated many of my thoughts on my personal Theology. Surprise! It seems to line up with a lot of other Christians who are also intelligent and logical and are motivated by God’s love and grace.
The only class times I don’t regret were sitting in Lanny Hubbard’s classes where he would actually teach about the Bible and how each piece was a picture of how much God loved us. I try to forget everything else.
FICM,
Another classical musician?!? Geez, you people have to tell me about this sort of thing sooner.
To the original anonymous poster….I was very touched by your thoughts and your story, and I’m so glad to know that you’ve realized that you’re not alone in your feelings. I only regret that more of us didn’t know about the others whilst we were there, in the situation. True community is knowing about REAL concerns and REAL opinions. Thank you very much for sharing yours. If that means I don’t get to talk to GM at bridal showers either, well then, so be it.
Oh, and just for the record (and the sheer joy of bringing up past things that don’t matter at all), our beloved Doug Lasit and his lovely wife were definitely amongst those praised for refraining from kissing before marriage (is it also considered virtuous to buy a car without test driving it because it’s an act of faith?)…and a friend of mine and I definitely saw them making out in the PBC Classroom Building lounge before White Dress Day. Ooops. And good for them. At least we know they were normal, human, and healthy once…too bad they weren’t supposed to be honest about it.
Hmmm…..
This is very interesting, I left “Bible Temple” before Frank’s reign began, although I had to deal with one of his prodigies at a “church plant” in the Frank mold. (a church plant that failed miserably) However I have not let that color my opinion of the church in general. Just because you’ve had a bad experince at the hands of some misguided individuals doesn’t give you justification to start integrating feel good new age philosophies into your understanding of God. The bible must be the bedrock of your understanding and not CBC’s community standards. It has nothing to do with being “open minded”. That is the excuse of people who don’t know what they believe or prefer to not know.
CBC and PBC have been major players in my own turn towards Calvinism. I was forced to re-examine what is was that I believed and what the nature of God is as revealed in his word and not in some “prophetically guided” pastor.
Please don’t misunderstand, I am not trying to beat anyone over the head. But blaming CBC, PBC or any of the teachers or pastors isn’t going to help anyone. Staying away from fellowhsip with believers won’t help either. Just remember that you are responsible for yourself and that no one can MAKE you sin. You will not be judged on anything that anyone has ever done to you. We will be judged on our response. God is sovereign and there is nothing in your life that has happened that is a surprise to Him.
“And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.”
Romans 8:28 (ESV)
I know that this may seem harsh however, it does say “all things” not just the good. God is big enough that he can also use what we perceive to be bad in order to do a work in our hearts. Even a bad experience at CBC or PBC. It may be time to forgive those who have wronged you and move on.
You may say “move on to what”? I think that Paul said it well in
1 Corinthians 2:2
“For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.” Not to know yourself. One area that CBC and PBC have failed in is the gospel. Five little words ” Jesus died for my sins”. Not the latest fad, but rather the gospel. All scripture points to it, if you can get that, you’ve got it all(note: I will be working on that till the day I die!)
I started writing a post about PBC and my feelings about my time there but then I got so angry and I had to cool down.
Ditto to basically everything negative everyone else said and so much more.
Sometimes I wish someone would do an Expose’ on PCB/CBC and other places like them that cause so much pain in peoples lives and defrauds them of their time, money, and sanity.
I guess one comforting thought in all of this is that we are not alone and many people share in the pain. There is a light at the end of the tunnel and it is called being nowhere near PBC, CBC, or any other MFI church. That’s when the healing can begin.
Sometimes I think I need counseling, but then I think…who in the world could ever understand all the ins and outs of the situation, the multi-tiered leadership/authority/submission theology, and all the rest that has become a way of life there. It would take hours to truly describle the situation in all it’s glory. Try explaining all this to someone who never been there and it sounds almost unbelievable. Try explaining it to a non-churchgoer and they have no point of reference at all and mostly think YOU are crazy for having put up with it for any length of time.
Gosh, I don’t know where to start. I was almost kicked out of PBC several times. I constantly thought I was a bad person with questionable morals & values. I had a problem with demerits. I would forget to empty my trash or make my bed with no wrinkles. I would wear a skirt too short, or be caught talking to one of the guys through their dorm window (they had banned all talking through windows for some reason). Anyway, the demerits added up, and in 1996, demerits were also fines. The demerit totals brought the staff to feel that I needed to make a choice: either shape up or ship out. At the time, I honestly felt like a 2nd class citizen–and I felt like I didn’t measure up. Now that I look back at that, I realize that I was just a tired student that would forget to empty the trash or make my bed properly in a rush to get to chapel on time.
I left PBC feeling like drinking really was a sin. It took me awhile before I could enjoy a pint of beer without any feelings of guilt.
I’m kind of bitter that I went 2 years up there on the hill without having the opportunity to live in a natural environment with the opposite sex. Hanging out in social units or trying to sneak your way around the rules really sucked! Even if you had a boyfriend, you were limited to 4 hours of conversation and one-on-one time per week, and that included phone calls.
Then, there was the times when a situation would happen where a couple would go too far, and because of the guilt that came due to the strictness of the rules up there, one or both parties would confess and there would be a huge encounter between the staff and that couple. I remember my roomate borrowed my car once & made out with her then boyfriend. Well, someone ratted them out, and the next thing I knew I was called into Bill Scheidler’s office for loaning them my car along with the aforementioned couple. He asked us to stand in a circle and hold hands to pray for repentence, and my roomate actually said, “So, it’s okay for us to hold hands now?” (her boyfriend was standing next to her).
I wanted to reply to Anon’s comment here:
I feel for you anon that you can’t dialouge with so called conservative christians, but what about Christ? Your statement “that is what really matters…to really KNOW yourself & what you believe.”
I definitely can have a relationship with Christ, but I still feel strongly that you need to know yourself & your beliefs. I don’t really see the two related. Any relationship…with another human being or with Christ is only that much richer when you know yourself. I struggle constantly, however, with not associating how the church looks & makes me feel with my impressions of Christ. It’s hard, though, sometimes. There is a lot of focus in the church on being who Christ wants you to be, but that can be an empty statement with no action. I see that statement coming alive when a person starts to pursue who they want to be–who they are at the core of their being. Knowing Christ enhances that. It’s like a marriage…you don’t want to be who your partner wants you to be…you become who you are, who you were meant to be, and then knowing your partner only enhances who you are. That’s how I see my relationship with Christ. We’re having an open, honest dialogue here…that’s how I feel. That’s what I truely believe. –x-PBC’er
I’m thinking a PBC blog would be a great place to have some healthy discussions about the affects of the environment there. Is anyone interested?
Maybe this will help. I just stumbled across this website which I find very interesting.
It is for The Rick A. Ross Institute for the study of Destructive Cults, Controversial Groups and Movements
http://www.rickross.com
Here’s a quick quiz from their site. It’s kind of funny, kind of sad.
Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.
1. Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.
2. No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.
3. No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.
4. Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.
5. There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.
6. Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.
7. There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.
8. Followers feel they can never be “good enough”.
9. The group/leader is always right.
10. The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing “truth” or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.
I was too afraid of losing my spirtual covering to mention the “C” word, but I am glad someone else did.
By “C” word I hope you mean “Controversial Groups and Movements”
Just to clarify, Rick may study “Destructive Cults”, but I’m more interested in his study of “Controversial Groups and Movements”.
We don’t use that other “C” word here.
True community is knowing about REAL concerns and REAL opinions. Thank you very much for sharing yours. If that means I don’t get to talk to GM at bridal showers either, well then, so be it.
I just wanted to say that I completely agree with the above statement. I have often times wished that more of us would have been open & real…I think a lot of us would have realized that we weren’t alone…and I’m all about community.
The post by Anonymous (the one with demerits) reminded me of an incident I had whilst a student at PBC. I was up late (past lights-out) doing sit-ups to try to catch up on my PE points when I heard a knock on my door. It was the dorm leader telling me I had a phone call. My mom was calling to tell me that my 15 year old cousin had just died. I walked back to my room crying. On the way back I told the dorm leader what had happened. Her response was “I’m sorry about your cousin, but I noticed your light was on and I’m going to have to give you a demerit.”
I actually laugh about it now because of the absurdity of it. I now attend a church that actually has the word “Grace” in it’s name. Any wonder?
Joey Giammalva…
What I was saying in reference to CBC/PBC is that the experience has really affected me. People are being honest here about how that experience affect them. When you come back with judgement about how they feel, it doesn’t help any of us get from A to B.
Your statement:
“It has nothing to do with being “open minded”. That is the excuse of people who don’t know what they believe or prefer to not know.” I couldn’t disagree more! Being open-minded is what has saved me from a miserable experience. Challenging & questioning what you are being told, thinking about it analytically, and being open to new experiences & ways of thought is what helps you grow as a person. You said yourself that PBC was influential in your move towards Calvinism, which was a great experience for you, because it caused you to reexamine your beliefs and the concrete Word of God. I think that’s great…that is what I would like to see more people doing. So many people out there do not reexamine and then reexamine again. The goal should be a movement towards a stronger belief system.
Jonah…!! I had that statement said to me countless times. The timing of them saying it to you, however, is so awful. I’m so sorry!
Whoever went to PBC thinking that it was going to be a normal, accredited, college experience was either ridiculously naive or seriously misled. To Former inner circle member, I can guarantee you that if Alynne Shinness gave you a failing grade, you deserved it. She’s my mom, and she would have given me a failing grade if I had deserved it. Don’t judge the whole lot of present/former PBC teachers by the few you’ve had bad experiences with. My one year at PBC was a definite eye-opener for me – it made me realize that there was more to life than just CBC and all I thought I’d learned. It also made me realize that my relationship with Jesus Christ was not just based on what a youth pastor told me it should be, or what I’d experienced at conferences and camps. It’s based on a life-long history of faithfulness, grace, and unending love. And if God has all of those things for my life, then He has all of those things for Glenda Malmin, Steve Cole, and any other former teacher (or pastor) with whom you have an offense. Let it go – it’s not worth your sanity.
Joey, I absolutely agree that the Lord uses ALL things–both good and evil–for our good…and I HAVE “moved on.” Just because we have opinions about CBC/PBC doesn’t mean we are “bitter” or “unforgiving.” Was Jesus “bitter” or harboring an “offense” or otherwise sinful in his vehement reaction to the temple money-changers? Or to the Pharisees? NO, he wasn’t. It’s unfortunate that you assume all strong positions against something stem from sin. Jesus was harsher with the pharisees than he was with anyone, and that is exactly how we all see CBC/PBC, as pharisees. Not to say we are Jesus or as righteous as Jesus, by any means, but we certainly can have pure hearts (because of Christ’s blood and finished work on the cross) AND, simultaneously, have strong feelings about how wrong and evil and hurtful churches like CBC are. As a matter of fact, I think those things go together quite nicely.
Hannah, the people on this blog haven’t collectively had experiences with just “a few” CBC leaders or PBC teachers. We’ve had experiences with most of them, and we know what CBC is all about. If you’re still stuck in that system, then of course you will defend it. But please don’t assume that those of us who have come out of it with different perspectives than you are somehow insane or harboring offenses. You’re right, if we’re completely wrapped up with CBC, then it is impacting us too much. But, I for one, spend about 10 minutes each day on this blog, and don’t otherwise think about CBC…frankly, I see this blog less as about CBC itself and more as being about people who are recovering from the damage that place inflicted on our souls.
Exposing darkness to the light is a good thing.
I completely agree with the last anonymous comment. My experience was with most of the staff members. There were probably one or two that still stand out in my mind that impacted me positively.
Also, I didn’t think that PBC was ACREDITED, but I was distinctly told during my initial orientations with the institute (I refuse to call it a college) that they had a ‘special’ transfer agreement with PSU. I didn’t expect a lot to transfer, but I was told that most of the credits would transfer out as electives. Then, when I went to transfer to PSU, the admitting department told me that there was no such agreement and that the only thing they could take from PBC was an occasional music or PE credit. So, because I tried to transfer, there was no way to get the two PE credits OFF my transcript at PSU…so, to this day, I have 2 ‘f’s on my transcript, which stem from forgetting to turn in my PE card. I used to get up in the mornings and run, so it isn’t like I deserved those F’s. Anyway, it was INCREDIBLY misleading. Since then, they have supposedly stopped misinforming due to not only my experience but several others. I, for one, was on their campus irrate & furious when this all happened, but never got anywhere. You live & learn.
Anna…I get that comment time & time again where someone is concerned about my spiritual fate because I no longer attend church. Not that it is anyone’s business, because your spiritual life is quite personal, but I’m doing just fine spiritually. Sometimes it is tempting to go back to church just so that everyone will believe that I really am ‘okay’ spiritually, but that would be the wrong reasons for going, now, wouldn’t it?
Reformed Pope…Those Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader completely describe CBC/PBC…so true….
To Anonymous:
in case you missed it, I’m not “in the system” anymore, and I’m definitely not defending it. All I’m saying is that although PBC and some faculty most definitely have their issues, what I learned there, even through all the crap, is that the grace, love, and compassion Christ offers to me, He offers to everyone. Even to misleading, judgmental leaders and teachers. And if you’ve ever read any other comments of mine, you’ll know that I agree with about 90% of what you are saying. And I spend about as much time as you do on this blog. I think it’s a great thing, and I can even say that I’ve experienced some closure and justification on a few levels when it comes to my experiences with CBC and PBC. But no one has “damaged my soul” simply because I refuse to play damaged any longer. The only person who has an effect on my soul is Jesus Christ. That’s the biggest problem with CBC is that people allow their so-called covering to have too much of an impact, and in most cases, leave too much of a wound. Simply choosing NOT to let a church have that place in your life, even in your history, is up to you. And by the way, if you’re going to criticize someone, at least have the balls to put in your name.
Hannah, your initial comment didn’t state or imply that you had left CBC, so yes, I missed that. I’m glad you are out! My intent wasn’t to criticize you, just to say it’s understandable that you would defend CBC if you were still there, so I’m sorry my comment came across as criticism.
Good for you to not let that place or its people damage you. They don’t damage me anymore, but they certainly did. When we give people our hearts, we make ourselves vulnerable to pain. In addition to learning much about the Lord and about theology since leaving CBC/PBC, I’ve learned much about boundaries, appropriate vulnerability, authentic community and effective evangelism. CBC’s place in my history is just one step of many that the Lord has directed and used in my life. So, it’s all in perspective, no worries.
Even if I listed my name, you would not know me. I knew your parents when you & your sibilings were all pretty young. I remain anon here, and limit what I say, not to be anon from other bloggers, but to be anon from CBC-ers who read this blog (and many do) because I’m still friends with a few ladder-climbers who are still there.
Anyway, Hannah, I completely agree with you that Christ offers his love and grace to us all of his people, including those at CBC. Without the God-given perspective and ability to “forgive them for they know not what they do,” I would be bitter for sure. They live legalistically because they mistakingly believe that they can earn favor or salvation or extra crowns in their jewels or a higher level of heaven through what they do and don’t do–or lose favor, miss God’s perfect will, etc. through what they do and don’t do. It’s a completely miserable, fear-based existence and I’m SO grateful that God freed me from it.
Hi Hannah, I didn’t post the anon comment you are replying to, but I’ll start using my name from now on if that helps people. I’m not afraid of what people think of me. I was the one that wrote to one of the Morton boys, who posted my e-mail on the 14th–the posting that has been followed by these comments. Anyway, I think I understand you better now that you’ve clarified with your second post. I agree that God is the same to everyone, but the way people portray God and who God is are two different things. Anyway, I can understand what you are trying to say…
–Karli
Wow! As JP told me the other day, thank God we didn’t go to PBC, then we really would have been screwed up.
I think you probably endured enough w/ your years @ Temple Christian & CBC. I’m just glad that I only endured PBC/CBC for 3 + years. Anyone out there who went to CBC & TCHS their whole life, then went to PBC? Can’t imagine..!!
I think people are missing the point of the blog here by railing against those who are pointing out the failings of CBC/PBC.This blog has proved cathartic for many individuals who were told, essentially, that they didn’t measure up to the “super-christian” standards espoused by CBC/PBC. It’s the first time I’ve seen a group this large who’ve shared their feelings about their experiences and it has helped to validate some of my own feelings about my time there and assured me that I haven’t been “taking crazy pills” when I didn’t agree with them.
Exposure to the alternate reality of the PBC world, a place where they attack your character for not emptying your wastebasket every day, obviously impacted many young people in a negative manner. When I was in that world, I had no idea other people felt the same way. This blog has been encouraging to me to see so many people who value the essence of Christianity and the Grace and Love of Christ, not just the belief system of specific church.
Of course we realize that God needs to change these people’s hearts and minds and no one is advocating “staying away” from fellowship with other believers. I feel like it is a given that changes need to occur through the work of God in these people’s lives and harping on something like that is beating to death a point that we all understand.
Before you judge people too harshly for being disillusioned by PBC/CBC, remember that we are talking about our younger selves. We were about 18, 19, 20 years old when we started attending there and probably more impressionable than we are now. Figuring out your faith and what you believe is a lifelong journey for most people and I would venture to say that many of us are still in that process.
Thank God I’d had a solid understanding of scripture before I went there so while the experience was not good overall, I was able to see some of craziness for what it was. I agree with Hannah that people place too much importance on their church in their life and unfortunately we were too young to realize the error of our ways when we were in the world of PBC/CBC. I think it might have something to do with being around so many other people who were all being taught the same thing . . . kind of a domino effect.
I’m Karli’s old roommate and I remember all the stuff she went through. There was no excuse at all for people to treat her that way. Let alone being unchristian, it’s not even civil. It was just rude. Nobody deserves that kind of treatment. I’m sorry she had to go through that.
Old roomate? Who are you? E-mail me at karli@hevanet.com.
You know, I have to agree with the previous anon comment about being more impressionable at the time. I was 18 when I started going to PBC, and left just before my 21st birthday. I’ve definitely grown smarter since then, but you have to start somewhere, and for me, I started adulthood at PBC.
The best thing that happened to me upon leaving PBC was that I hooked up with some Multnomah Bible College Students that had a solid & grounded faith in the Scriptures & really positively impacted me in a new way about what it means to be a Christian in this world. At PBC, I learned what kind of Christian I didn’t want to be–what kind of person I didn’t want to be–and what kind of church I never again watned to be a part of. It was when I left the Rocky Butte campus & moved into the real world that I witnessed such positive examples of Christlike behaviour in friends I made from Multnomah from various denomonations. What was really hurtful to me is that two different elders from CBC told me to stop hanging out with Multnomah Bible College students, because they didn’t believe in speaking in-tongues, and had some other slightly different beliefs than CBC. Like that one person posted here awhile back, when they started telling me who I could be friends with (especially considering I was befriending other believers), I “put the kool-aid cup down and left.”
Karli, I hear you!! I grew up in a church very similar to the way PBC or CBC was. I don’t attend church now either. I love the people I went to PBC with and I’ll never forget the bonding experiance I had. However the spiritual experiance I try to forget. Since the day I left I have avoided church to any and all extent. One of my final papers for my graduation with a Anthropology/ Philosophy Degree from Potsdam State University (3.73..you were higher Karli..good job!) was on the subject of my experiance in another culture. The culture chosen: PBC. I mostly used the hand book and of course the bible as reference. Most every one at the presentation were amazed (All 100 people)! Needless to say it was a hit. I say all this to say that Glenda never gave me any good advice either, and that PBC as a learning expereince or spiritual experience was crap. Glenda once tried to get me to admit I was lesbian, and currently I believe that there is still a rule in place that woman can not be found in each others beds at PBC. Actually we were hung over from a frat party the night befor, but who cares now, its just a funny story.
Tara Comin?
Yeah, it’s Tara Comin!
See Mom. This blog does do some good. We brought together two old friends, and just in time for the Holidays.
Hey ya its me..why who was wondering?? tcomin@hotmail.com….
I don’t understand, if so many of you didn’t agree with the teachings and standards at PBC, why did you stay?
Hannah, you said,
To Former inner circle member, I can guarantee you that if Alynne Shinness gave you a failing grade, you deserved it. She’s my mom, and she would have given me a failing grade if I had deserved it. Don’t judge the whole lot of present/former PBC teachers by the few you’ve had bad experiences with.
I’m sorry if you think I’m slighting your Mom in this situation. I was merely identifying with Karli in that I felt I had received grades for classes that had little or nothing to do with my aptitude or performance in the classes. It was just another aspect of the PBC culture where you were judged, harshly, for things that had little or nothing to do with your education, character, or walk with Christ. You mention that it is more important for us to focus on things like grace. Well, I experienced no grace at PBC in the grading system. At PSU, I had a prof who gave me an incomplete because my final project for the class wasn’t to his liking. He made me resubmit my work twice before giving me an “A”. Rather than giving me a failing/poor grade, he showed grace to me in giving me the opportunity to learn and produce my best work. I can’t think of any time an PBC “teacher” showed that kind of grace to me, and instead I was handed poor marks and demerits.
It would be easy for me to take this personally, but I don’t, because I realize that the instructors at PBC were just following the rules of the system. Your Mom wasn’t to blame. The fact that she would have given you bad marks for, in my opinion, poor reasons is just another piece of evidence that she was just a part of the system. So, I don’t hate anyone of the past faculty or hold a grudge. Although I will admit it still makes me feel angry at times, I also realize the long term effect was that it got me out of that place and into a real education. Something which I am infinitely grateful for, as opposed to anything learned at PBC.
To anon: Why did we stay? Well, hell, we’re all asking ourselves that same question really! I think the simple answer was that we just didn’t know better!
I can say that for me, it was a process of learning enough about myself and who I was before I got out. I had so many people from my MFI church back home telling me that PBC was the way to go–people that I trusted–and, then the leadership at PBC wanted me to stay a full four years. But, after 2 1/2 years, I did leave. It got to the point where I knew I wasn’t happy, and being at PBC full time or in the ministry full time–at least in that avenue of ministry was not for me. I always had the desire to get a college education, however, so I started over, and was successful at finishing before I gave birth to my son Samuel this past February.
Why oh why did we ever stay. For me the answere was simple: I had great friends, I got to be 3,000 miles from home, and I felt like if I didn’t stay I would be a bad christian. OK we all have to admit that some of the PBC classes were an absolute joke(ie. womans issues..or whatever the heck that one was). Personally I wrote a few papers for money, in one class (Romans..ahh the good times) I received a much lower grade for my paper then the three other papers I wrote. Humm I was being graded on me..not my paper. That teacher and I had had some dealings early on in my second year.
Im sure you all can remember dorm duties right? Well this one week I had toilets, and to my surprise Beth kept giving me a slip each day! Now I have to admit I would clean them after my early morning jog befor the big morning shower rush. After about four days I finally went to her to ask why. Someone had the runs and was not cleaning up after them selves! This was going on nearly a week so I desided the christian thing to do was to provide a package of Imodium AD to each of the doors with a note and humorous picture of poop telling whomever it was that they should take this to feel better in order for me not to get a slip each day. Needless to say this apparently wasn’t the best move. (I forgot who taught Romans…wasn’t he the head of something in the office?? Drove a HUGE dodge Ram…Hmm anyways that who I was sent to speak to about this matter.) We didn’t agree except for the fact that he thought I was a pretty good artist! Of course after passing Imodium out the dirty toilets stoped. I still believe in my heart it was the right thing to do. Im sure Jesus would have done the same thing. As for my grade in Romans..I didn’t pass…but gosh darn it I got a 4.0 in Ancient Roman Art and Greek Philosophy down the road. A mear steping stone I might say….
PS..Whats with all this anonymous stuff WHO ARE YOU PEOPLE!! God knows who you are….even if I don’t….
That’s a great story, Tara. Anytime you can include an illustration of POOP in your message, it makes it all the more effective.
And who knows why people comment anonymously. Cowards, I guess.
Hey y’all,
My name is Jose M. Benitez, and I attended PBC for 1.5 yrs (Spring 2003-Spring 2004). I guess it’s time for me to give my two cents’ worth regarding my time and experiences at PBC.
For starters, I do wish to say that I did have some positive experiences there, particularly through various friendships that formed there, which continue to be a source of life and encouragement for me. These friends are fellow “out of the box” thinkers, who are not followers of the PBC/CBC “party line”, whom I would say have more prophetic insight into the state of the church and culture than some of those who continually utter “thus saith the Lord” in the chapel mic (no disrespect intended to the true prophetic peeps).
Anyways, while I have enjoyed some good things from PBC, that is not to say that there are no faulty, or possibly, erroneous, things, both in theory and practice.
First, there is this sense of exclusivity that underlies the PBC culture. Part of it lies in PBC’s connection with CBC, due to their local church emphasis. While I am very much pro-local church, the way PBC/CBC emphasizes this seems to eclipse a greater emphasis, and that is the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God is so much greater than PBC, CBC, MFI, or any other church body. The Kingdom of God transcends denominational, cultural, geographic, ethnic, economic, and class barriers. Yet, PBC/CBC in some ways seems to be segregated into a religious gated community, where interaction is limited to those within the circle, and outsiders…well, they’re screwed, cuz they’re not part of the “new thing”, they aren’t walking in “present truth”. In some ways, PBC/CBC is guilty of not “discerning the Lord’s body”, and that is a shame.
Second, there is a pressure to conform to this PBC/CBC identity and DNA. This is an area that has resulted in much student fallout from the school and church. In speaking with several fellow PBCers, as well as with Jan Weinstein, one thing we all shared a concensus about was that the reason many students do not get involved at CBC and its ministries is due to their already established spiritual DNA and identity from their home churches. Being a Vineyard guy, I value authenticity, honesty, a relaxed church style (t-shirt, shorts and sandals are my summer church attire), true relationships, a nonreligious spirituality, and body ministry on all levels (not just the “super-anointed” preachers). In many ways, PBC/CBC’s way of doing things went against these values. My second semester at PBC, I managed to connect with the Westside Vineyard, as well as attended several conferences (non-CBC) and that proved to be a lifeline for me while I was away from home. The PBC/CBC has thrived, in some ways, on a superficial show of coolness that obscures the true spiritual condition of some there. I’m sure we’re aware of peeps who looked like they had everything together, maybe were even involved in ministry, but had deep-seated sin issues that, when brought into the open, were not dealt with in a grace-filled manner leading to true restoration.
Thirdly, PBC/CBC has some rules that have carried over from hard-line Pentecostalism. Of course, I speak of the Prohibition-style ban on drinking. In the beginning of Spring 2004, Ken Malmin called a mandatory student meeting in which some of the student body leaders confessed to drinking (though not getting hammered) over the holiday break, and Ken used that to basically explain and enforce the anti-drinking rule. Now, those who know me know that I enjoy a good pint of Guinness, or a glass of wine, every now and then. Heck, Jesus turned the water into WINE, not Welch’s grape juice! I’ll just say I’m glad to be back home, where I can discuss ministry plans with my friends over pints of Guinness at our fave Irish pub, and occasionally wear my Guinness t-shirts to church (while praying for people!).
Fourth, the dating rules…well, let’s just say Josh Harris’s books and the PBC Manual section on dating would be added to the Canon of Scripture if some of the powers that be had their way. Since I didn’t date anybody there, I didn’t have to jump through all the hoops and red tape ^_^
I could say more things I find are wrong there (including the accred. issue), but those are my main issues w/ PBC. If anyone here remembers me and wants to chat, e-mail me at hgfirestarter2k3@hotmail.com, or check out my MySpace profile. Blessings.
Peace,
Jose M. Benitez
First of all, Jose, I want to say that your posting brought tears to my eyes–literally. You have such a good heart, and I really admire your thoughts & your courage to not only voice your opinions, but to put your name to it as well. Your comments are only that much more powerful.
I guess the reason I got a little choked up reading your posting is that I identify with it so well.
There is a wonderful church here in the Portland area, and other churches springing up all over that are so much more real & accepting of INDIVIDUALITY & diversity than CBC & PBC. One church that I can think of, Imago Dei, has smokers on their doorsteps & their own pastor meets with members of his church for beers. Nothing wrong with it!
I have to go, as my son is starting to cry, but I will post more to you later. For now, I can only say that I appreciate your comments so much–it means a lot to hear my thoughts in another person. What’s so funny is that you were at PBC about 7 years after my time there, but our experience is so similar.
I’ll post more later…
Karli
We just moved away and are starting in a new church in a new city. We miss the music and the preaching of City Bible. I saw the blog title and thought it might be referring to City Bible. I have always called City Bible a “business and father church†because of its strong, stable and bible-based teachings. This church has helped me grow up into a man of strength and convictions. It is a church and school with honest love, deep substance and a drive to do the right thing in God’s eyes. I have loved the people and the church and we all realize no church or Christian instituion is perfect.
City Bible has been willing to make changes for the good, as the church leadership does love God and its flock. My kids benefited from a couple of years in City Christian elementary, I am friends with many who benefited from CBC and I deeply know and love several of the people in leadership. Having said this, this blog has helped me understand the gap I experienced in my heart while attending City Bible. We did not leave with the bad feelings that many of you write about and I believe that their strengths are in teaching spirituality, leadership, values and even business acumen. I thank the leaders and pastors of City Bible and I believe that many of the leaders do read this blog and I know they do love each of us enough to consider the criticism and to seek God to help them grow.
However, there is real hurt on this blog and I would hope City Bible leadership would consider these thoughts and seek for improvement.
1) to be less condemning and more gracious/inclusive towards other believers ideas (and even faults) that are not salvation based (even towards the fellow leaders with-in the church). I started at Multnomah Bible College and was amazed at the Profs (behind the scenes) “quiet and non-condemning acceptance†of my speaking in tongues, (as long as it was private). Could the opposite be said of City Bible ten years ago… probably not… and although the level of tolerance has become much better over the last few years, it still has a ways to go. I’m not talking tolerance of sin but tolerance of beliefs that are not critical to salvation. This goes for tolerance from the top towards the leaders that they oversee. There are too many opinions made into gospel. Examples would also include a multiple of stances put on the pastors, on a multiple of ideas, from masturbation to Para-church ministries. I think all churches struggle with tolerance of other beliefs but I hope City Bible would reconsider set policies that are opinions of the church and are not spelled out in scripture.
2) the inner circle bubble can breed pride and exclusion and truly is more than just discouraging to others outside the circle. It also tends to breed the “matter of fact†attitude of beliefs that I mentioned in the first comment
3) More of the money and pastors time could be spent tending the flock and following up with the hurting. It’s nice to think the body will do most of this but it’s just not reality. I have seen a consistent pattern of Pastors being boxed up and spread out to thin and the flock (and sometimes pastors) continue to suffer and move-on.
Having said that, no church or school is perfect. City bible is an incredible church with incredible leadership but I guess I have always guarded my thoughts on these issues. Even now the thing i miss most of Portland is I miss the preaching, teaching and praise time of City Bible. Remember God has called us to fellowship no matter where you attend. This blog should not give excuse for us to forsake fellowship because God has told us he called and made us to fellowship. We should feel free to help our church grow spiritually, and I should have been more vocal, but the enemy would like nothing better than for us to forsake each other and to begin to forget the Great Commission Jesus has put on our lives.
Last Anonymous,
While I appreciate your open mind, I can’t help but question your awareness…you said “I have always called City Bible a “business and father church†because of its strong, stable and bible-based teachings”
I know they claim to be a “Bible based church” but if you listen to their sermons (I do online), you’ll find very little Bible and quite a lot of Frank
I never realized how much resentment lay in me till reading the last anonymous comment. It really made me ill. I have tried to turn that resentment around into being informed and educated, but I see some still is there for me. I believe Karli and I were singled out and punished because of our strong characteristics and determined nature. Im sure we were seen as trouble.( any woman like us was…) All I really wanted back then were solid answeres, and truths I could base my inner beliefs on.
Today I know that although my life has taken wrong turnes and brought me to places I never want to see again, I can say that I found myself and my beliefs. AMEN….
Hi Jose, Okay, my baby boy is asleep, so I’ll finish what I was trying to say earlier…
One thing that I feel was a detriment to the student body at PBC was that all students were required to attend CBC unless they were already members of a local church. For most students at PBC, their home churches were at least in another Oregon city, and for most, in another state or country. So, CBC was the church that everyone attended. Spiritual diversity was never accepted at PBC. I’m sure many of the staff members would beg to differ, but it just wasn’t. I lived through it and so did many others. We all came from different places on the map, so we were all culturally diverse (heck, I came from McMinnville–and, I don’t wish that culture on my worse enemy!), yet forced to think alike when it came to doctrine & spiritual matters. I know when it comes down to it that no one is really forced to do anything, but what happened, at least in my experience, was that when I questioned doctrine, or attempted to see something in a different way, I was continually shown how my way was wrong, and their way was right. End of discussion. Spiritual diversity, like I said, was not encouraged.
One thing I learned in the past 8 years I’ve been outside of PBC & CBC is that I love diversity. We are all so different. We all interpret things differently, and respond to Scripture & God differently. Not everyone responds well to being pushed over, I mean slain-in-the-spirit. Not everyone is going to believe that speaking-in-tongues is meant to be a group activity in a church service. Not everyone thinks prophecy is for today. Not everyone needs to be in church to have a rich-inner life & connection to God. Some church goers like the back row…not because they are backsliders, but because they are more comfortable socially there. I for one never felt like I needed to touch rocks from Toronto to feel annointed. Heck, I didn’t even know what it meant to be annointed. I never did figure that out. I thought we were “all called.”
Yes, the Bible is the same book, but look at how many denomonations are out there that represent it. I know there are a lot of Christians out there that are convinced that the way a Christian is supposed to look must be something like the way THEY look. The church YOU go to must be the same as the church THEY go to in order to meet their approval. Well, I have dear friends in many denomonations, and whatever their stance is on speaking-in-tongues or prophecy or raising your hands in church or no, they all believe in God, and bottom line, that’s what matters. I don’t care if you sing from a hymnal or sing Vineyard music…if you pray to God from your backyard garden or a church pew. You like wearing a t-shirt & sandals to church…others like wearing brown nylons & white pumps. Since when did conformity to man’s standards replace individual expression when it comes to such personal matters as spirituality?
Speaking of diversity, I personally have friends who range anywhere from atheists to Catholics to Jehovah Witnesses to Mormons. I have friends who are gay and straight. I have friends who came from great family backgrounds and friends who, like me, came from a tough family life. I love them all and I learn from them all (well, almost all of them…hahaha). Point is, I seek environments where diversity and personal expression are encouraged and people are LOVED for who they are…no strings attached. When I reflect on the people in my life who have made the greatest impact on me…it was those people who loved me for where I was at…for who I was…and, I saw a posting where someone said that is a bunch of hippy bull-shit. I agree with the response that that hippy was Christ and the bull-shit is the Bible. Christ said to love our neighbor. When did the church start believing they were better than everyone else?
And, I have to say for the record, because I’ve voiced a lot of negatives, and here is a positive…there is one faculty member at PBC that officiated at my wedding. I’m not saying any names, and I don’t know if he reads this blog, but if he does, he knows who he is. He was always a great example of this to me, and I’ll always appreciate his treatment not only of myself when I was a student at PBC, but of my husband as well. He was the only staff member at PBC or leader at CBC that ever treated me with dignity and respect & loved me for who I was.
Anyway, I think it’s great you embrace your individuality & enjoy a pint of Guiness while discussing ministry. What better way to relax & brainstorm! Plus, it is SOOOO normal of you! I love beer, too–foreign & domestic, and I love a good Merlot. I love Irish pubs, too. After all, that’s where I met my husband!
–KK
Last Anonymous said:
“2) the inner circle bubble can breed pride and exclusion and truly is more than just discouraging to others outside the circle.”
You know, that is probably the aspect of CBC that I resent the most. And it’s a part of the church that even the most committed members find troubling.
It’s like an arrogant highschool clicque, that won’t let anyone join unless they promise to give them all their lunch money.
That said, I’m glad you had you a good experience at CBC. You sound like a smart thoughtful person who is able to take CBC for what it is. Good for you. Life is too short to be bitter and angry all the time.
And regarding drinking: I too love a Guiness or a glass of Merlot for dinner. Unfortuantely, I also like another 7 or 8 adrinks fter that… thank God it’s Friday.
I personaly was very fond of the Asplands….if it matters in the long run. I think they were somewhat normal, actually they were great!! They had the exact same dinning room table my parents had.I felt really at home there.
If only I could tell Mrs. Aspland that I did end up mastering public speaking! I ended up being a sexual Health Educator in University, and I can now say the word *penis* and *vagina* in front of large crowds (upwards of three hundred). Im sure she would be proud. I went from throwing up and crying in front of people to placeing a condom on large objects..horray for me!!
Oh and if anyone knows David Horn still..is he married off yet??
Just wondered….
Hey Tara,
I definitely enjoyed Larry Asplund as a prof. at PBC. The man is brilliant, and just downright hilarious! Truly the ideal person to keep some of us ADD kids attentive! Lynda is also pretty cool. Aside from them, other PBC profs I highly respect are Lanny Hubbard (truly a master teacher) and Brian Daehn (great guy, strong prophetic gift, was my mentor @ PBC, and I still keep in touch with him). They are guys I definitely enjoyed learning under, and I do count it a blessing to have been in their respective classes.
Tara’s last comment made reading through this mega-collection of comments SO worth it!
I just had to explain to my coworker why I laughed out loud! haha
Glad to give you your laugh for the day…
I promise though…no more comments that could be considered *dirty*…
And I still don’t know who asked if it was me who was commenting…
It has been some time since I visited the site, but a few friends urged me to read what was being said about PBC lately, so I took the bait. As some of you may know, I have been gone from PBC since the middle of May. There is no need to rehearse the events that led to me being laid off or to try and interpret all the reasons behind the decision. I am very happy attending Gresham Free Methodist Church today while making my living working for a couple of universities.
There are many things I could say about the twelve years I served at PBC but, at fifty-six years of age and having perpetrated my share of damage to people during my years of ministry, I have neither time nor energy to entertain a new round of hard feelings. One thing I have learned: I’m dumb enough to overlook my own hypocrisy when criticizing others at times, but I’m smart enough to know that bullshit is one word. This brings me to the first point: some of you have legitimate complaints but about others I am not so certain. Perhaps you should search deep in your own hearts to discern which category you belong to before logging on.
My wife and I have experienced pain at the hands of religious zealots too. But I prefer to focus on the many happy memories I gained from sharing a small portion of my life with intelligent and precocious youth and with whom I believe are positive contributors to this world. I also have good friends at PBC, including Dr. Asplund and Lanny Hubbard and others. I happen to know that their hearts are always turned toward the students.
My second point addresses the rest of you who have raised legitimate concerns over hurts you received while at PBC. I can only say that I am truly sorry. Please accept my apology as a former representative of the teachers and administrators who hurt you. I also ask any person to forgive me if I intentionally or unintentionally hurt you during your time at PBC. I can only hope that you are able to deal with your anger and use whatever experiences you have had in life to reconstruct something worthwhile for yourself. I wish you all the best for the future.
It has been some time since I visited the site, but a few friends urged me to read what was being said about PBC lately, so I took the bait. As some of you may know, I have been gone from PBC since the middle of May. There is no need to rehearse the events that led to me being laid off or to try and interpret all the reasons behind the decision. I am very happy attending Gresham Free Methodist Church today while making my living working for a couple of universities.
There are many things I could say about the twelve years I served at PBC but, at fifty-six years of age and having perpetrated my share of damage to people during my years of ministry, I have neither time nor energy to entertain a new round of hard feelings. One thing I have learned: I’m dumb enough to overlook my own hypocrisy when criticizing others at times, but I’m smart enough to know that bullshit is one word. This brings me to the first point: some of you have legitimate complaints but about others I am not so certain. Perhaps you should search deep in your own hearts to discern which category you belong to before logging on.
My wife and I have experienced pain at the hands of religious zealots too. But I prefer to focus on the many happy memories I gained from sharing a small portion of my life with intelligent and precocious youth and with whom I believe are positive contributors to this world. I also have good friends at PBC, including Dr. Asplund and Lanny Hubbard and others. I happen to know that their hearts are always turned toward the students.
My second point addresses the rest of you who have raised legitimate concerns over hurts you received while at PBC. I can only say that I am truly sorry. Please accept my apology as a former representative of the teachers and administrators who hurt you. I also ask any person to forgive me if I intentionally or unintentionally hurt you during your time at PBC. I can only hope that you are able to deal with your anger and use whatever experiences you have had in life to reconstruct something worthwhile for yourself. I wish you all the best for the future.
LT
Thank-you for your comments, LT. I e-mailed you my response.
Karli
Hi c alyst, I just dropped in on my way back to my Cathedral site. I liked what I
found and thought that I would leave you a note for your efforts in creating And they wonder why their church is shrinking?. It
is amazing what you find looking through these blogs, and the links from them. Have
you ever done that?
Hi,
While I was searching through Blogger I came past your site, it is not really the information I was after about Health Fitness but I did stay to read your blog and found it interesting and well done. Keep up the good work and hopefully I will visit again sometime and also find the information on Health Fitness that I was looking for in my travels.
Regards,Regards,
I was crying tonight feeling hopeless, when I found your site. Although I think a lot of the humor and comments push things a little bit too far, I definitely relate to the disillusionment.
For me, PBC and BT were good experiences, although since I attended in the 80′s, a bit too much of a fashion parade.
The main concern I had and have is how often we were hyped up about our destiny. I’m from the X’er generation, and I felt like our generation got passed over for the younger set. Eric Knox not being given the youth after Bob MacGregor was reassigned is a perfect example. I agree with the poster who said that only the elder’s kids really had “destiny.”
But, for me the real difficuluty was being in an MFI church for 10 years.
It DEVESTATED me. The cult-like symptoms were 10x what it was like at BT.
I really believed all of the covering and submission stuff, and geez, I can’t even begin to tell my story. What I can say is toward the end, the pastor’s wife got mad at me (for going to see her off at the airport) and refused to speak to me for 6 months, while her husband preached about not letting the sun go down on your anger.
I’m worked through my anger and bitterness, and am attending 2 local churches but stay the hell away from leadership, and feel very purposeless and destiny-less.
Just knowing that other people out there have gone through similar things helps a lot.
Hi,
I was searching through Blogger to see if I can find some information on Mens Health. I stumbled on your blog, as this was not quite what I was looking for about Mens Health. I did however read your blog and found it quite interesting, keep up the good work and hopefully I will visit it again.
Regards,
I honestly must say this is the best blog I have ever come across. I am not just saying that to kiss your butt! I am studying for my master degrees and spent the last 12 hours (and 12 cups of java) researching this area topic. Many blogs have generic information but yours is different. I can actually apply some of this information to my studies. No worries I will give you full credit in my references section. I took it upon myself to add you to my favorites and will visit back to let you know how my grade ends up. Thanks so much from!wedding table favor.
What a surprise to find this website…granted I did just google “ex-city christian” but I didn’t really expect to get any results. I attended PBC in the mid 70′s and BT for about 12 years beginning in 1971. I left BT (not an easy job) just before the move up to Rocky Butte. I have spent quite a bit of time reading the various postings and am a bit shocked to see so many people with feelings simlilar to mine. There is much to share. Feelings and emotions run deep. Guilt and a feeling that I can’t be a “real” christian without going back to BT/CBC have stuck with me ever since leaving. I remember being told that if I left and begain believing differently that I was under satan’s deception and my own thoughts couldn’t be trusted anymore. Although I have been attending a presbyterian church for the past 15 years and serve as an elder working with christian ed and worhsip…I am still haunted by that statement. There is still this pull…maybe these feelings would go away if I went back to CBC. I miss the worship. Don’t miss the leagalism and the money thing and the “words from God” that could change weekly. Please keep this blog…
There is a whole lot of pain here. I wonder if this is similar to the experience others have on other mega-churches?
Just to be off topic but… two F’s in PE???? How’d she pull that off?
Listening for the Call, is it your goal to post something in EVERY old post? Glad you’ve discovered the blog, but it’s a bit annoying.
My good friend and co-ex-toxic church refuge turned me on to your blog and we feel like we’ve discovered a goldmine. There are actually people like us in other cities! We knew there was a continual stream of the disillusioned who leave the dysfunctional world we were a part of, but to think it’s happening in your city too. wow.
We are over here in Boise Idaho where another MFI church exists called Capital Christian Center, run and controlled by the uncle (or should I suggest really by the Aunt) of Judah Smith. so good to see this blog to find out there are others out there who have disembarked from what is considered the maiden city ship. It’s a hard ship to get off, let me tell you. but you all seem to already know that. But once you do disentangle yourself, freedom comes in waves and in layers. We’ve been out a year and a half now and are still dealing with residual issues but making progress toward realness and getting back to original roots of Jesus. He is very patiently mending and reconstructing the incorrect teachings and attitudes I had accumulated over 20 years (it’s ambarrasing that it took my husband and I so long to figure out what was really going on), and 12 odd years of my above-mentioned friend.
It’s amazing how many similarities there are in the 3 churches, City Bible, City Church and Capital Christian Center, in attitude, in elitism, in celebrity-driven name-dropping motivations, in entitlement mentality so obvious as they audaciously fleece the flock weekly of money that in turn is used more to support the lifestyle of the senior pastor and his family (who are all over 25 now) than to further the work of the gospel in helping the poor or even helping those within the 4 oppressive walls of their domain. Prada purses and huge homes for newlyweds, countless trips to Washington DC (cancelled and rescheduled at whim on a continual basis) . . .
We go to the largest church in Boise now which is Calvary Chapel. It’s no wonder that it is attracting regular people because the pastor has an authentic history of living life before he met Jesus so can relate to most people and has slowly built a church that supports mission work all over the world. All we can do is show up on Saturday night or Sunday and listen to him expound on the Bible, verse by verse, and watch how it’s supposed to be done and let it heal us. Absolutely devoid of all hype– he refuses to press people for money but somehow the mission stuff actually gets done, both in this city and abroad. Instead of a propped up facade with no layers, their website has deep drop downs on every ministry that actually helps people where they need it.
We are still unable to read the Bible much–maybe in small doses; trying to shed the authoritarian voice of God that overtook his once authentic love and grace voice. Still gun–shy of getting involved at the new church, can’t even go every week, but go when we are up for it; at least it’s helping unravel the mess we allowed ourselves to become by seeing a new way of doing things: A church that pays their bills on time, accepting people as they are, not trying to hard-sell the latest vision/scheme and especially treating people with dignity and respect instead of making them all feel like they are worth less than and have an unimportant role in the big plan of God(which is reserved for the senior pastor and family: God-forbid you too can have a destiny and a reason to live other than to perpetuate the vision of the ‘First Family’–an expression coined by Wendell Smith himself); so much different than the sham of Christianity the former church has disintegrated into over the years.
I guess that was a really long way of saying that we get what you’ve all gone through because the same attitude and m.o. is at work here and we are so glad to be free of it altho it still haunts us daily. Your blog indeed so telling. Maybe we should start a Boise one. For that matter, why isn’t there one in Seattle?
Refuge, I am familiar with your ex-church. Actually, I was engaged to someone from that church years ago; we met at PBC (the college run by City Bible) and last I heard he was still @ CCC. So, through that, I got to know the pastors a bit (Ken Wilde, right?). My impression of the church, pastors & elders, others I met, was that they’re all definitely cut from the same cloth as CBC.
We (my family) are also refugees from the legalistic church system, and I can SO relate to many of your comments (especially about being gun-shy about getting involved in church, having to let the Lord renew our minds regarding interpretation and use of Scripture, etc.). I’m glad you’ve found a safe church that seems to be more of what church should be. We have, too, but it’s still so difficult to keep cynicism at bay. I do have hope that there are people who truly love the Lord and want to “do Christianity” His way. I hope I’m one of those people. I think that most who blog here are those people.
Take care.
Just read each other, Toxic Church Refuge. After all, YOU are the epistle of Christ, written BY Him upon the tablets of your heart (2 Cor. 3:3).
How blind we are sometimes – sitting directly across from the living word of Christ that is in each other, but not seeing it because we have been taught to focus only on the written word of Christ that is in the Bible.
Dare I say it? The sheer volume of testimony of Christ (Revelation 19:10) written by Him in the hearts of believers, is far greater than that of the Bible. In other words, the Bible is one book … to focus on it alone, and miss the millions of books that are believers, is absurd.
Could it be that Bible-fixation is a root cause for the relational problems and lack of community in today’s church? Because we are taught to discount one another in preference for a book?
Ever wonder why it says in Revelation that we overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony, and not by the blood of the Lamb and scripture? Doesn’t that scripture say that churches today have it wrong, by emphasizing scripture over testimony of believers?
All this to say – please do not feel guilt over not reading the Bible. Read each other – love each other. That’s what He’d want, I’m absolutely certain.
Welcome!
Jack
Hi Matrix,
I wonder if we met each other when you came to Boise? Now I’m curious!
I can only hope, too, that the way we live out the rest of our lives is in truth and in light and understanding of people around us. One good thing is, despite all the residual fall-out of the world we were in, we can now be compassionate with those like us. What to do with those who look at us with glazed eyes when we let cynical comments slip however? I guess what they don’t know won’t hurt them. I’m learning to be careful and selective with those I share with. Those that don’t get what we’ve gone through tend to move away quickly bobbing their heads while saying ‘well, God bless you’ or something equally generic.
It’s kind of like being a recovering alcholic in that those who never experienced that world cannot truly identify.
This blog is very helpful. Knowing that others see what we’ve grown to see helps us know we truly are on the right track. Good luck to you, too, as you walk out the journey God’s given you.
Refugee
p.s. my friend and I called it the vortex! so I so love your title ‘free from the matrix!’
Hi Jack!
Thanks so much for the encouraging words on reading the scriptures. You’ve got a point there on so much focus on the word of God (like we worship it or something) and we miss each other. Never God’s intention I’m sure. It’s that letter of the law thing that we club each other with.
What was so weird about wac-world is that they constantly warned against the letter of the law. There was so much woven in there in using subtle forms of mind control (whether they knew they were doing it or not), that it’s become hard to sift out those shepherding voices when reading certain scriptures. Some days I wonder if I’m ruined for life.
But then some days, I have grace to open up my bible and the Holy spirit speaks to me in a new and simple way about my day and I feel like I’m not so hopeless after all.
Still a Refugee for how long?
Why, for the rest of your earthly life, of course.
Acts 7:6 is talking about the Hebrew people, but the same applies to us here – once we are born of the Spirit (we’re now ‘our Father’s seed’), we are strangers and aliens here, no more citizens of the world, but children of God and citizens of heaven (Ephesians 2:19, Philippians 3:20).
Maybe what we’re feeling, is the world trying to expel us – trying to extinguish the light? I felt that at the last church I attended – for the simple reason that they were about their business, and I was about my Father’s business. They labored in the flesh, and I labored in the Spirit. And wherever I tried to join them in their vain works of the flesh, there was friction – for them, I wasn’t on the same page they were, they had a different agenda. For me, my joining them in vain works of the flesh frustrated the Spirit – and so there was no peace for either of us and it became clear that we (Karen and I) had to leave.
As for the topic of this post – “And they wonder why their church is shrinking” … when Karen and I left, because it was so hurtful, I wanted to believe that God would raze that place – that there would be an exodus and they’d have to close their doors, but it never happened. The minute someone ‘leaves the stage’, there’s another actor waiting to fill the opening. I outgrew it – mostly because of being filled with the Spirit in a rigidly anti-charismatic church – but also the wonderful things the Lord was showing and teaching me, while being forced to participate in lame recitations of ABC manna (already been chewed). There was just no room for ‘fresh’ there, no room for the Spirit to move. They had a formula and they weren’t going to deviate from it one iota.
For several years I played guitar on the worship team – in fact, when I started attending that church, though it had 800 members, worship was led by the worship pastor on piano only. Going through a divorce, there was no money to give, so I volunteered to play guitar. Soon a bass player and drummer came forward, and over the course of 3-4 years, there were several rotating worship bands, anchored by the worship pastor on piano. One Sunday when I wasn’t playing, Karen and I arrived just as the service started and we ducked into the back row. In the bulletin was the name of a new guitarist I’d never seen before, and though to myself: “who is that?” The Spirit said, loud and clear “that’s your replacement”. I wondered “where am I going” and the Spirit said “you’re moving”.
In the years since, as I’ve tried other churches and been expelled yet again (because of the Spirit and different agendas), whatever post Karen and I vacated was filled IMMEDIATELY by someone else.
The last church we left, our own family was part of running us out. Honestly, I can’t help but relate it to what Jesus said about the people white-wishing the tombs of the prophets … there’s a feeling that they have stoned / crucified us (with their words) and have laid us in a tomb in their minds (to shun us) and have whitewashed them (to forget us). Boy do they get upset when they see us (the Father raised us up) after all that. No sooner have we left than they have to place a seal on the tomb (to secure it) and slap on some more whitewash.
The single hardest thing about that is, as you mentioned, is having been healed of the blindness that once had me doing the same vain religious works, and recognizing that so many are blind, but lacking the power to heal them. In vain we try to convince them of their blindness, and open ourselves up for stoning and crucifixion once again. I hate being helpless to heal someone of blindness – and am resigned that my only power is to pray for them, and eagerly await the day when the Father heals them too.
Until then, it’s a solitary walk – save for meeting some brothers and sisters along the way. Regularly shooed along by the world, reminding us that we are refugees in this world – sojourners.
Having tasted Christ (1 Peter 2:3), I wouldn’t have it any other way.
Jack
I feel your pain, Jack, I do. Or maybe that’s my pain I feel and can just relate to yours. Some of your scripture stuff makes me bleary-eyed though, but that’s mainly because I can only take it small doses like I mentioned earlier. I guess you are right in that we are sojourners in this life and fitting in isn’t ever going to come. Ah well. I wonder if we should be alarmed if we do fit in somewhere?
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Here’s a quote from a blog that ended or closed down in this summer 2006 called Organic Church, because it was not longer needed or I guess they felt it had run its course. (I found it on The Krow’s blog so thanks Paul) This guys words are a bit how I feel about visiting this CBC blog and having a place to express, question and vent. So thanks to y’all for not telling me to take a hike!
Here Here!
It’s better than therapy.
I attended PBC for 1 year. I found the above comment interesting about couples themselves feeling so guilty that they went to the faculty but I thought it was extremely sad that while I was there I knew someone who ratted me out because she felt so guilty that I broke the no dating 1st semester rule. Am I wrong to assume that I should have felt like tattling on myself first? Anyway I just stumbled on this site and found it fascinating. Keep up the good work.
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Sue,
You are correct in observing that their rules are controlling, cult-like and and wac. I bet you are glad that you escaped with just one year!
This was the first time I read this entire thread. It sounds like PBC is a cult to me.
RH –one more enlightened person—this will help you understand all the others!
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No doubt!
It’s almost beyond comprehension that a place like this exists.
it sounds very “Jim Jones” to me!
The sad part is it’s not just in portland –seattle and boise all have the same
flavor –so it must be the roots of the whole thing.
As we say down here —we just don’t want to do church like that anymore.
GOING TO CHURCH DOES NOT HAVE TO BE PAINFUL!
I agree, going to church should be FUN to me! I absolutely do NOT understand why some churches are run like cults, with a “Reward & Punishment” theme that would make the Nazis BLUSH!
I also strongly believe in a separation of “Church & Dating”.
If a person is brought up right, there is no NEED for all those rules!
Chinook — a friend recently told me she found a book about breaking off
curses or something like that –which I questioned but it said that if you
ever are involved in a church that says you’ll be hurt or things will go badly for you if you leave here –than run because its a cult.
You can pray to break this word curse over you I believe as does every person who left ALL these churches. That is wrong and I so know how you feel as its spoken within every line esp. w/ the pastors when referring to those who
left ”in the wrong way”
Tell me is there any right way to leave a CULT? Just wondering –if someone here knows than pass it on to those people living in colorado in that compound. You dont need barbed wire to be set apart from the rest of the Christian world and in a controlling environment iving with that fear that if you leave than bad things will be said about you too.
Guess what MFI I’m here to tell you that other Christian Churches don’t have to operate in that way and treat people badly when they leave –just thought you’d like to know –apparantly it hasn’t occured to you.
That does seem to be one of the defining aspects of a cult: anger when someone wants to leave, and threats to that person that their life is going to be worse because they are leaving.
I left an MFI church, and I received an email from the head pastor (a miracle in itself) that basically told me I am negative (translation – I disagreed with them) and if I leave the church I will be leaving the vine. Last I checked, Jesus is the Vine.
At least he didn’t try to put a guilt trip on me. I didn’t drink the glass of cool-aid they offered me on the way out.
Daniel — I’m so sorry and just know I’ve seen it done a thousand times
to people in the same way. It touched me that you said how it was a miracle
you got an email on the way out as we know what that means too well.
Why is it some people are only noticed as they are walking out the door?
The devastatioin is especially hard on those in the intern program and
early 20′s. I saw alot of damage done there that was devastating. I can only
hope they find light and healing walking in the truth somewhere else with
a loving kind group of Christians. And no we don’t want a perfect
church –in fact we’ll take people who make mistakes anytime as long as they can be real about them! Daniel hope you are blessed by reading this –the only word I can think of and I hope it doesn’t sound too religious. Whatever your age bro -we all relate!
Hey pastors or leader wananabe’s –here’s a saying to get deep in your heart:
‘People don’t care how much you know –till they know how much you care’
Hahahaha!!!
DON’T let the arbor hit you in yer cluster on the way out!!!
Seriously, welcome to the real arbor, man.
Daniel, I gotta tell you a funny … after the last church I was run out of (on account of the Holy Spirit), I looked for another to attend for awhile … about 30 miles south, there was a new Vineyard startup … they were looking for a worship leader, and that’s what I do … so anyway, I’m talking with the husband/wife pastor team, and they point me to the Vineyard web site, and I read up on what it takes to be a worship leader in their denomination … the web site said worship leaders had to be “vineyardized” – so, irreverent me, I wrote the pastor again and asked “what does it mean to be vineyardized”? … well, as I’m writing that in my email proggie, my web browser is open in the background, and visible in the upper left hand corner of their web page was their logo: a purple cluster of grapes …
I should tell you – once in awhile, God gives me a vision … so I’m looking t that cluster, as I’m thinking “what does it mean to be vineyardized” – and a HAND reaches across my monitor screen, grabs the cluster of grapes and squeezes the juice out of them, then withdraws leaving nothing but mangled skins hanging on the stems. Shocked I am – and I think “Oh, so that’s what it is to be vineyardized” …
So, I ended my discussion with the pastors, and stopped looking for another church – it was pivotal in my freedom – from there I started reading about “relational Christianity”, and discovered Wayne Jacobsen and other cool authors on a more relational / wholistic approach to the faith.
Anyway man – now the life begins.
Blessings!
‘Scrupe
Fantastic story and the visulaization is one many of us feel we have lived
–no sour grapes -just squeezed the juice out of. Fortunately we know where
to go to get juiced up again –the True Vine! Tks scrupe
Remain in me and I in you —that is hard to do when you are running all over the
planet climbing the ladder of corporate church politics.
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Daniel, this is to be commended. Good job for recognizing your church was no longer healthy for you (or healthy period). I got a letter from Former Leader when I was leaving. I can no longer say pastor as he never acted like one to me or to anyone for that matter. It was mainly a lecture on how leaving was damaging to the church and my family. My thought was if I mattered that much, he could have tried a little harder earlier in the game. There were reasons for his letter. Let’s just say, if I didn’t have a church position, I don’t think he’d have even made that effort.
After much prayer and pondering and time, I decided not to answer the letter so that my silence could speak. My usual MO is communication, but it was too late for that. Someday the words may come. Or maybe they can flow here on this blog. What a great place. Hopefully people can find solice in transition here.
Whoops. I spelled my name wrong in the last entry up there. I’m inspired by New Blogger defining his name so here’s a handy definition of my name:
[nemesis] In Greek mythology, the goddess of retribution. She primarily represents the penalty the gods exact for human folly, excessive pride, or too much good fortune.
My question is why does God allow these kinds of churches represented here in these discussions to be successful or at least appear to be successful? Why don’t we see a penalty for their folly and excessive pride? It seems they have too much good fortune because of various reasons mentioned previously on this blog so I won’t duplicate.
Speaking of damaging, THEY are damaging to Christianity–to Christ’s reputation and His cause–and to Christians within the realm. Doesn’t God care about this? Is He doing Himself any favors for allowing it all to keep droning on like a perpetual hell?
I can vividly see why people walk away from the whole thing. I’m tempted to. But I really like–love–Jesus alot. And some of his people are pretty cool too. So maybe I’ll hang in for the time being.
Or Nemesis, arguably the worst Star Trek movie of the bunch …
Right, Locutus? 
Perhaps God allows it as an example of what NOT to do. In truth, do not most of these example fail in the end? Ted Haggard is only the latest example.
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Diogenes,
Yes, Ted Haggard example does remind us that deceptive behaviour will come out into the light eventually. I agree that all these churches are shining examples of what not to do. I freak out about this every month or so because whispering people from said churches discuss how our lives won’t go well now that we’ve done the unpardonable and disentangled ourselves from their ‘covering’. They judge us to be bitter with unresolved forgiveness. Everyonce in awhile it all gets too much for me and and it feels like God is oblivious or choosing to look the other way. I normally believe that God has a plan and everything is under His control but in my weak moments, all that goes out the window.
I guess I needed a little reassurance so thanks.
Jim Baker, Jimmy Swaggert, Jim Jones, Ted Haggard, literally dozens, even hundreds of others that could be used as an example. The truth has a way of coming out, no matter how hard people try to hide it.
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Yes but for those of us waiting for truth to be revealed, it’s painfully slow. I suppose we aren’t supposed to want vindication as Christians, but I’m just not there yet. Maybe someday I’ll have moved on enough not to care any longer. That would possibly be a more healthy place to be. But part of me feels if I become uncaring about it I will enable it by staying silent and so I’m not sure about how healthy that is.
I never signed up for this.
I just remember that old chestnut:
“Lord, give me PATIENCE, and give it to me NOW!”
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Haha! It’s a virtue that I can’t WAIT to have!
Tomorrow I will probably wonder why I was so bothered today! Thanks for all your kindness
Hi Nemesis!
Your comments about God being ‘in control’ and ‘allowing’ evil practices to go on strike a cord with me. I’ve gone around with those questions quite a bit, especially after a long prayer vigil for a cancer patient that died.
What if God isn’t in control right now? What if when God gave us dominion over the earth to rule over it, He gave certain control to us?(Genesis 1:26-30) When our ancestor Adam fell to temptation in the garden, the authority that God gave him passed to satan. Romans 6:16,”Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are the slaves of the one you obey,” If there was a newpaper printed that day, the headline would have been, “Satan takes control of the World!” Read Luke 4:6, where satan is talking to Jesus, “I will give you all this domain and it’s glory; for it has been handed over to me and I give it to whomever I wish.” 1 John 5:19, “We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.”
I have found that when I started looking at God the Father as He is presented in the New Testament, (“Every good thing bestowed, and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation, or shifting shadow.” James 1:17) that I can trust Him and know that I am loved. There are a number of things that God cannot do. He can’t repent for you. He can’t get baptised for you.
Like St Francis said, “if you want to sanctify a society, sanctify yourself first.” According to Jesus, we are the evil ones, (Lk.11:13) We find redemption and peace in Him.
I hope that didn’t come across as too preachy….I hope it helps out a bit in the steps toward the heavenly city .
Peace bro.