They Matter to God
Posted on January 17th, 2006 by catalyst into the Uncategorized categoryI get a lot of grief on this blog for being too negative. Yet… today I have something positive to say.
This past Sunday I “experienced” one of the greatest church services of my life. It was the 12:30 mass at St. Augustine Catholic Church in Northwest, Washington DC.
The choir was beautiful and strikingly similar to the Brooklyn Tabernacle Choir. There was an energy and sincerity in the music that I have not witnessed in a long time. It wasn’t a show. It wasn’t hype. It was genuine praise.
Then Pastor Pat gave his message. Being the Sunday before Martin Luther King Jr’s. birthday, Pastor Pat quoted Martin Luther King Jr. He chose MLK’s speech against the Vietnam War:
Somehow this madness must cease. We must stop now. I speak as a child of God and brother to the suffering poor of Vietnam. I speak for those whose land is being laid waste, whose homes are being destroyed, whose culture is being subverted. I speak for the poor of America who are paying the double price of smashed hopes at home and death and corruption in Vietnam. I speak as a citizen of the world, for the world as it stands aghast at the path we have taken. I speak as an American to the leaders of my own nation. The great initiative in this war is ours. The initiative to stop it must be ours.
Father Pat then went on to discuss America’s involvement in the War on Terror. Last Friday, the US led an airstrike on a small home in Pakistan. The US was trying to kill a key terrorist. Unfortunately we missed the terrorist and instead killed 17 innocent Pakistanis, including women and children. In the darkness of night, we murdered 17 people. And how does the US respond:
“We apologize, but I can’t tell you that we wouldn’t do the same thing again,” Senator John McCain.
Father Pat ended with this statement, “Those Pakistani’s who died. They may not matter to the US Government. They may not matter to you. But they matter to God. God values all life, and those Pakistani’s matter to God.”
And he’s right. They matter to God.
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January 17th, 2006 at 7:53 am
Well said. All life is precious no matter what country you are from.
January 17th, 2006 at 8:34 am
Has this blog now come to the place of pushing the leftist agenda?
January 17th, 2006 at 8:42 am
Cat,
Thanks for sharing that sermon….it’s not the first time I’ve felt like a lot of mainline denomination congregations (which are generally given a tremendously bad rap by CBC and similar congregations) really have a grip on the social/human aspect of the gospel in a way fundamentalist/nondenominational churches sometimes don’t. And, this is probably because there are so many constituent congregations in so many ethnic/political/socioeconomic brackets that it’s a lot more likely that someone is making noise about what’s happening around the world. It just makes sense.
MFI, which I refer to not-so-affectionately as “the un-denomination”, is comprised of lots of different churches as well, but they’re not allowed to really have differing theology or even (really) differing focuses. It’s about uniformity, and as a result, the concerns of people outside their constituency’s direct attention (i.e. innocent Pakistanis in the line of fire) are not of concern.
It’s also typical of any institution with highly centralized power (i.e., CBC or, at the moment, the U.S.) to be wrapped up exclusively in its own best interests, whereas an institution with more divided/decentralized power is more likely to see past the end of its nose. Neither model is perfect, obviously, but it is interesting to see the differences at work.
In a completely different vein, Cat, I’m curious to know what kind of repertoire this choir performed. I checked the Brooklyn Tabernacle Choir website out and found out that their choir director (the daughter of the founding pastor and the wife of the current pastor….nepotism, anyone?) is musically illiterate. This is proudly proclaimed on the website, along with the fact that God has given her a special gift for composition that somehow doesn’t involve reading or writing music. In my line of work, we have a word for that sort of thing, and that word is: LAZY. I have a hard time believing that musical gifts from God are irrevocably connected to ignorance. If we wink at and even celebrate musical ignorance on the one hand, what’s to stop us from winking at/celebrating other kinds of ignorance…like the kind that allows us to close our eyes to the suffering of innocent people all over the world?
January 17th, 2006 at 8:43 am
Those ‘innocent’ people had invited the number 2 person in the terror organization that attacked us over for a celebration feast. This puts a little different light on it. Stick with what you know and you just may keep yourself from being a ‘useful idiot’.
January 17th, 2006 at 8:46 am
2nd Anonymous,
How is regretting the deaths of innocent people the same as pushing a leftist agenda? Does that mean the “right” is in favor of people dying? Please advise.
January 17th, 2006 at 8:47 am
God isn’t about agendas! He doesn’t belong to the left or the right; He’s neither Yes on 36 nor is He No on 36. You don’t get it, do you?! As a Christian, those were 17 unreached people who weren’t given a chance to hear the good news of the Gospel. That should grieve you, that should grieve even those who don’t have Christ in them. You are as blinded and deceived as those Muslims who misinterpret the Koran and enter into Jihad in the name of Allah. God help you.
January 17th, 2006 at 9:08 am
Ever notice how God doesn’t use war in the New Testament like He did in the Old? The Children of Israel vs. the rest of the known world worked really well with God’s plan at that time, that is, until Jesus came to Earth to live and die that ALL men might hear the good news and be saved. I don’t see how Christianity can condone war, while still using Jesus as our example of how to live. Maybe you, right wing, gun toting, NRA card holding, mud flap owning anonymous, can shed some light on the Scriptures that brought you to the place you’re at in your calloussed Christian walk.
January 17th, 2006 at 9:58 am
“…those were 17 unreached people who weren’t given a chance to hear the good news of the Gospel”
How do you know that they didn’t have the chance to hear the gospel? Maybe they had been presented with it and rejected it, like many people do everday. I’m not saying what was done was OK by any means, because I don’t agree with it either, but we do not know what they had or hadn’t heard about Christ. That’s just as naive a comment as the one you are replying to.
January 17th, 2006 at 10:55 am
Let me rephrase. There is a better than average chance that in a developing Muslim country like Pakistan, cut off from most Western media sources and unwelcoming to Christian missionaries, that those 17 people had not yet heard the Gospel in their own language. It’s a calculated risk with eternal consequences. I’m just trying to illustrate how our role as Christians is entirely oppossed to our role as secular Americans. I’ll admit I’m having difficulty getting the two to coexist simultaneously in my walk as a Christian in America. How do you pick and choose your allegiance?
January 17th, 2006 at 10:57 am
So if they had heard, and had rejected the gospel, they should have been bombed?
January 17th, 2006 at 11:03 am
If the skin is brown they must go down.
January 17th, 2006 at 11:34 am
“So if they had heard, and had rejected the gospel, they should have been bombed?”
please refer to the part of the post that says
“I’m not saying what was done was OK by any means, because I don’t agree with it either”
that should have answered your question. had you read the whole thing, it could have saved you some time
January 17th, 2006 at 11:34 am
the wife of the current pastor….nepotism, anyone?) is musically illiterate. This is proudly proclaimed on the website, along with the fact that God has given her a special gift for composition that somehow doesn’t involve reading or writing music. In my line of work, we have a word for that sort of thing, and that word is: LAZY. I have a hard time believing that musical gifts from God are irrevocably connected to ignorance.
Ok, I’m changing the subject from bombing people to how churches like CBC work, but I don’t feel too bad about that since that is the focus of this blog. JC, I’m not sure you’re aware at how many people at CBC have been put into leadership who were not skilled, talented, trained, nor qualified for the positions that they filled. Rather they were chosen because of the favor they found with CBC leadership. We’ve already discussed at length in other posts about the staffing of PBC & TCS, which are prime examples. Our recent favorite topic, Howard Rachinski, was a struggling businessman with no musical training at all. (I’m going by memory here of what I’ve heard Howard say and others have said about him, so I may have some of the details confused.) He claimed that God spoke to Him that God would give him talents for music, and he sat down and banged out a couple of worship tunes on the piano and suddenly he’s the worship pastor of a 500+ congregation. Rather than find someone with real musical training, Pastor Dick hired a family friend whom he felt God had called to the job. Now I can’t say whether or not that was the right choice to make, perhaps he really was called by God to that position, I can’t say. But I do know that examples like these are the norm for BT/CBC/PBC and a recent visit to their web site on their staff page is a who’s who of people who are compliant with the Collective.
Many talented, gifted, skilled, and brilliant people have passed in and out of CBC because they were unwilling to fit into the mold.
My own personal experiences, as well as those of close friends of mine, are also proof that if someone is talented it is likely that they will remain unrecognized, and at best, used and pushed aside. That may sound arrogant and bitter, but I’m speaking from what I know. The problem with their mentality is one of ego and pride. They feel threatened by people who are more capable than they at something, and consequently are unlikely to promote them further. Ironically, the leaders who encouraged me in my own giftings were ultimately the ones who limited me and caused me to seek another home to be fulfilled in my gifts.
January 17th, 2006 at 12:07 pm
“So if they had heard, and had rejected the gospel, they should have been bombed?”
Locust, please refer to where the post said:
“I’m not saying what was done was OK by any means, because I don’t agree with it either”
If you had read the whole post, your question would have been answered. Could have saved you some time.
January 17th, 2006 at 12:36 pm
I recognize that this post is a little political, but I wanted to share the sermon and how I felt.
That said, in the future I’ll try to avoid the topic, not because I care about offending anyone, but because it’s not really what this blog is for, and there are plenty of other blogs that discuss the war in Iraq.
Is this a liberal leftist blog? Sometimes. And sometimes its a right wing blog. Depends on the issue and how I feel.
As for the music repetoire of the choir, they sang several old African American Spirituals. I don’t remember all of them, but they were amazing. Also, I don’t really know about Brooklyn Tab’s choir, other than they are big and sound good.
Lastly, as for who Dick Iverson chooses for leadership, I think that’s a great topic and will likely be my next post.
January 17th, 2006 at 12:45 pm
Ecclesiastes 3:1,3,8
“There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven: a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build, a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace. ”
And yes you all are a bunch of whining liberal hippies. It’s by the grace of God that you are still here alive and not condemed, and by the strength of our country and our leaders that you are not being blown up in a car bomb before you have a chance to repent.
You wimps disgust me. Grow up.
Have a nice day.
January 17th, 2006 at 1:10 pm
Ok I am usually in whole-hearted agreement with most stuff posted (except those who try desperately to defend the errant ways of CBC) but I have to say regarding this I don’t agree with the opinions regarding the air strike. You must look at both sides and you have to get the story straight.
I too agree that ALL life if precious (Black, White, Green, Superpower, and Third world alike). But we have given ample warning that if you harbor terrorists you will suffer their same fate, and that is exactly what happened here. Nothing more, nothing less. I guess you should pick your dinner guests more carefully. If you don’t believe me, the Pakistani government has officially stated that “foreign militants” died in the air strike.
Sometimes unfortunately in life you have to look at the big picture and make the tough calls. Were the thousands of American lives that were lost to defeat the Nazi’s worth it? Of course. Were the lives of these people worth it to eliminate terrorists who might end up being involved in an attack on any democracy loving country worth it? Unfortunately yes. In fact let’s consider them heroes’ if you will. They helped bring these terrorists down.
It’s easy for us young idealistic people to say that each life is valuable so no-one should ever die, but unfortunately there are evil men in this world bent on destroying the lives of others and lives must be sacrificed to stop them and save the lives of others. Or who knows, maybe I am wrong. Maybe Hillary could have brokered a peace deal with Hitler with no lives lost….yeah that’s the ticket..……but I tend to think not.
January 17th, 2006 at 2:00 pm
Last Anonymous,
I couldn’t agree with you more.
“But we have given ample warning that if you harbor terrorists you will suffer their same fate, and that is exactly what happened here.”
We tried to warn those white, Christian, bastards in the Twin Towers that the great almighty Allah would strike them down. They did not listen so we overtook your planes and struck them into your precious towers, striking down the pathetic, terrorist Americans.
That is what happened on 9/11. Nothing more, nothing less. I guess you should pick your place of employment more carefully.
Sometimes unfortunately in life you have to look at the big picture and make the tough calls.
Praise be to Allah.
January 17th, 2006 at 2:23 pm
Some of the comments here make me sick to my stomach–especially the postings defending the air strike & the manner in which those anonymous posters articulated their thoughts. I think what Father Pat had to say regarding the strike was simple & truthful–the value of humanity to God. Too bad some others on here are more interested in categorizing people & their beliefs into left wing vs. right & justifying the killing of innocent civilians for a war based on lies.
Thanks for your posting, Catalyst–it was a good one.
Karli
January 17th, 2006 at 2:29 pm
Why, hello Cattle List (aka most recent anonymous)…how are you today? I refer you to Brian’s commentary. Wimps? So, this Jesus is now a wimp…and people who lament the deaths of people whose “crime” was keeping poor company…allegedly (bearing in mind that our judicial system operates on the principal that everyone is supposedly innocent until found guilty by a jury of their peers…or in this case, until we bomb the shit out of them, leaving their “peers” to perpetuate well-founded hatred and anger towards the people who killed their friends and families…us). Speaking of naievete…who do you think funded Al-Quaeda back in the day and made Osama bin Laden the big cheese? That’d be our very own US government. But, at least they’re not wimps, right? At least they’re decisive. Thank God for that.
To Catalyst….thanks for answering my question about the repertoire. Musical literacy questions aside, I’ve definitely heard groups without musical training perform like gangbusters…hope that stream of thought didn’t come off as a diss on your musical tastes.
To FICM….I hear you. The way the chosen people are chosen at CBC has nearly nothing to do with ability. This is my point — it’s part of the “fundamentalist aesthetic” to devalue training and education. It’s a weird throwback to a medieval way of thinking, an “anti-Renaissance” of sorts wherein no individual is allowed to take credit for their work, and “tall poppies” (talented or skillful individuals) are cause for deep and dark suspicion. It’s quite post-modern in a rather sick way….the deconstruction of value. You’re only allowed to do something if you don’t really know how to do it, because that way we know for sure whatever you *are* able to do is from God. Right.
So, yes, I hear you…it happened to me, too. In a way, it’s the best thing that could have ever happened to me…because now, I’m not just a kid with some brains and some musical inclination. I left, I got a good education, and I lost my fear of excelling and learned take responsibility for myself in the world. How could I regret that for myself? But, I know that others have not been so fortunate, and it’s for their sakes that I continue to be so critical.
January 17th, 2006 at 2:30 pm
Cat-
No one believes you got up from your drunken stupor in time for any Church Experience. It is ok to admit you watched it on TV.
January 17th, 2006 at 3:28 pm
I said 12:30 mass. I was up and drinking by 11 that morning. No one said I was sober during the “experience”.
January 17th, 2006 at 3:43 pm
This site should be called the church of drunken debauchery and hate. Shame on all of you!
January 17th, 2006 at 4:22 pm
DEBAUCHERY-
Inflected Form(s): plural -er·ies
1 a : extreme indulgence in sensuality b plural : ORGIES
January 17th, 2006 at 4:23 pm
I’ve been visiting this site for a long time…how did I miss out on all the drunken debauchery?
I’ve never seen any of that. Shame on you.
January 17th, 2006 at 5:19 pm
Calling anyone “innocent” or “guilty” is, by definition, judging them. Only God himself knows a person’s heart and is righteous enough to stand as judge of another.
I fail to understand how any of you are able to smugly say that [insert person/group here] is innocent or guilty.
Let me ask you all a question.. but before I do, I should state that I am neither “left” nor “right”. Such a position of decision is NOT mine, and I am not attempting to critic nor defend the airstrike/war. Should I ever be in such a decision myself, I pray that God would give me grace and wisdom.
My question is this:
In the bible there are several accounts of wholesale genecide/slaughter that was commanded by God. Woman, children and even farm animals were murdered, because they belonged to a race that opposed Israel. (Joshua 6:21, and various others.) In Numbers 31:1-18, the murder of woman and children was instructed to occur AFTER the war was over. These women and children were murdered in cold blood for apparently being part of a race of people who opposed God.
Where *they* innocent or guilty? Why?
January 17th, 2006 at 5:25 pm
John 2:1-11 tells me that drinking alcohol in moderation is acceptable unless you think Jesus turned water into wine to tempt people which I think would classify as a sin.
Also, turning a mention about the unintentional (i hope) murder of 17 civilians into a pro vs. anti war rant is ridiculous. Was Cat’s point to preach against the war or to share an uplifting church experience? Think about that before you start spouting some talking points you heard from a goofball on TV.
January 17th, 2006 at 10:32 pm
I think people forget the facts of the situation. We were trying to get one guy and killed many. If these people were combatants then they were also targets. If they weren’t than how can anyone, especially Christins, be ok with that?
All life is precious. Life is a gift from God. If any one of you had someone over there that lost a life, you would agree with that statement. Don’t get it twisted. Has your hearts darkened because of frustration, anger, or superiority.
If JC was here today, what would he say about the war. “Kill them all and I’ll sort them out later!” Please! How many of their civillians have died in our “WAR ON TERROR”? And before anyone starts throwing me under the bus, I am a Christian. I am an American. I’m not perfect but I am saved.
And oh yeah. Before I forget. These so called unqualified people that are placed in postions in CBC, what do you suggests? You are either part of the problem or part of the soloution. Bellyaching about it on this blog is not going to change it. Are the jobs getting done or not in the church? And if a person feels different than either make a suggestion, call attention to it, or apply for the postions yourselves. What a bucnh of weak as bitches! And I know what your thinking. I said I wasn’t perfect, just forgiven.
January 17th, 2006 at 10:46 pm
Hey gimcrack, this is the REAL Cattle List and, no, that wasn’t me posing as Anonymous back there. (I’ll tell you when it’s me.) BTW: for what it’s worth, you garnered for yourself a lot more chutzpah in my book before you started posting your photo. You’ve really let me down. All this time I thought I was sparring with an adult, not Jan Brady.
January 17th, 2006 at 10:52 pm
What is a “gimcrack”?
January 17th, 2006 at 11:26 pm
CL! My old pal! Happy New Year! I was hoping you’d come…sorry, dirty trick flushing you out like that, I guess. Oh well. I’m not so much a Jan, though…I’m more of a Cindy archetype with shadings of Marcia, Marcia, Marcia. And, for the record, I’m not posting my picture for the benefit of this blog, but my own blog.
Henri: as I said in my post, the US judicial system works on the basis of innocent-until-proven-guilty. When these people died, they had not been proven guilty, so we must therefore assume their innocence. Effectively, then, assuming innocence is non-judgment.
Fezzik: The Catholic Church has made its stand on the US’ activities in the Middle East very clear…the pope is anti-war. So, I think it seems fairly natural to jump to war vs. anti-war when the initial thread was citing a Catholic priest. It’s gotten a little out of hand, I agree, and we’ve gone far afield, but the progression is traceable, it seems. The thing that seems untraceable to me is the logic of a follower of Christ who condones or endorses what happened in Pakistan. It doesn’t follow.
Weak as(s) bitches anonymous: You didn’t really address what FICM or I was talking about. The question isn’t about things getting done or not….the question is about putting the most appropriate person for a job in place, and proactively seeking out people who do things well. It was never an issue of volunteering or not…I for one did plenty of that…and got the run-around. It seems you don’t quite know what you’re talking about…so now, you can add “mistaken, but forgiven” to that repertoire of pretty lame excuses for name calling behavior.
January 18th, 2006 at 6:37 am
You are probably right. I shouldn’t have said that. Sorry about the name calling. That was inapropriate.
January 18th, 2006 at 11:42 am
Germans kill the Jews.
Spaniards killed the Moors.
Americans enslaved the blacks.
Americans killed the Native Americans.
Americans killed the Muslims.
The violent racism goes on and on and on and on…
So long as they are not “one of us” it seems to be perfectly ok - even patriotic.
January 18th, 2006 at 3:37 pm
I love how this blog is like a mix between Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert. My two most favorite people in the world.
It’s great.
January 18th, 2006 at 5:45 pm
Great analogy, Iamthekiller! Love both those shows and this blog, go figure!
January 19th, 2006 at 5:17 am
By the way Karli, let’s not get the War against Terrorisim and the War in Iraq confused. Or do you not believe 9-11 happened and not believe it was perpetrated by terrorists? (And yes, I’ve heard the arguments that we orgionally funded Osama and Al Qaeda, so ok great…but today they are attacking us.)
Just to be clear people, the airstrike in Pakistan was associated with the War on Terrorism. They were after somone related to Al Qaeda who has openly declared war against us.
I can see how many call the war in Iraq a “war based on lies” though [in my opinion] a truer defination would be a “war based on faulty info.” And, it’s easy to lump the two millitary offensives together but to call our erradication of terrorists who are bent on destroying us and train and plan every day to do so “a war based on lies” doesn’t seem to add up.
and No I am not a Right-Winger zealot…..I’m just sayin’….
January 19th, 2006 at 7:50 am
Yeah,
When Frank preaches on tithing I always think of it as “a sermon based on faulty info”.
Its not a lie if you believe it.
January 19th, 2006 at 8:49 am
To Anonymous: I do not confuse the war on terror with the war in Iraq. I actually see NO relation!
In my opinion, in our fight to win the war on terror, we have become terrorists ourselves–the incident in Pakistan is a good example of this with the killing of innocent civilians.
What Iraq has to do with Osama is anyone’s guess.
Of course I believe we should go after those responsible for 9/11! However, they aren’t in Iraq!
Karli
January 25th, 2006 at 1:52 am
Anonymous said…
Yeah,
When Frank preaches on tithing I always think of it as “a sermon based on faulty info”.
Its not a lie if you believe it.
7:50 AM
Say what you want about cbc and their passion for tithing but i can will give you my personal testimony. I was raised in a Christian home that didnt tithe and we were always struggling with money.I attended cbc for years and was getting tired of hearing about tithing until one day my wife was tired of us never having money to pay the bills. I was at my lowest point. I was working 40 plus hours at work and had no extra means of obtaining money. I decided that i would start putting my money in Gods hands since I had nothing to lose at that point. that was 3 years ago and I have not missed a tithe since.I am making almost 6 fugures and have a big house and investments. I love the fact that i am able to help family and friends financially and spiritually. Now when people come to me and ask for help with their budget the first thing I ask if they are tithing.I am forever thankful to cbc for their wisdom and support to my family and all the friends we have there
January 26th, 2006 at 7:34 am
Well thank God that now you have money!!!!
After all, that is what Jesus died for.
Do you realize the CBC puts money above all else? Sounds good to those who don’t own a bible…and to those who don’t know how to read.
Use your head.
January 27th, 2006 at 12:31 pm
that didnt even make sense but god bless you for trying
January 27th, 2006 at 3:49 pm
Let me add that yes I am mahing more money and as far as that comment on thats what Jesus died for. Jesus died for our sins but he also taught us to love our neighbor giev to the needy and i lot of my income now goes to people in need. You cant financially provide for people unless you proven you can be a good steward with money and you have a heart to give
WWJD
August 15th, 2007 at 5:07 am
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