Let’s talk about war and killing.
Posted on January 18th, 2006 by catalyst into the Uncategorized categoryGuest Blogger and Vietnam War Veteran, Larry Taylor, offers another view on war:
Justin made a number of valid points on the recent killing of, presumably innocent, people. Even if they were aiding and abetting our most heinous enemies, it is fundamentally wrong to kill civilians if it can be avoided. In this case, it did seem to be an egregious act that should be condemned by our representative officials and answered by a formal apology with reparations for the surviving victims. Still, I don’t have all the facts.
I also agree that God cares for these Muslims. The Incarnation is proof, for Christ “…came into the world to save sinners.” God cares when the “least” of us suffer under the rubric of “just causes.” I cannot imagine God participating in unjust wars.
Certainly, Vietnam, and perhaps Iraq, falls into the category of unjust wars. I wasn’t a Christian when I went off to war as a young man. I believe I convinced my son not to enter the service because I know firsthand that war scars forever. Still, no matter how hard I try, I cannot be a pacifist. The dark side of cheap anti-war rhetoric is that war “happens” even when we decide to do nothing. Bonnhoeffer settled his dilemma by deciding to stop a monster from destroying more innocent people. Imagine the guilt of the polish citizens, who quietly minded their own businesses while trainloads of Jews were unloading next door at the death camp! Peaceful protests could not have dismantled the Nazi machine.
There is a time to act and a time to refrain. It is just that it is so hard to know when and how to curb evil without becoming part of the problem. Personally, I am praying about our military’s decisions and the victims of this man-made disaster.
-LT
RSS feed for posts
January 18th, 2006 at 8:30 am
War hath no fury like a noncombatant. C E Montague
To be prepared for war is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace. George Washington
The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without. Dwight D. Eisenhower
In war, whichever side may call itself the victor, there are no winners, but all are losers. Neville Chamberlain
I appreciate someone making a post with some balanced thought. Thanks, LT. I think the real reason so many people, including the readers of this blog, find this so polarizing is not because we disagaree about the killing of innocents, but because we disagree on whether or not Iraq is a just war.
Don’t believe me? How many movies have you seen depicting the heroism of World War 2? Those movies clearly depict Americans as heroes and saviors even while non-combatants perish. How many German civilians were killed in the bombing raids? And we know how many thousands of Japanese civilians had to die in Hiroshima and Nagasaki to end the war with Japan?
The sad truth is that in war all are losers, and innocents die. Both sides, anti-war and pro-war, are hypocritical in some way. We all want innocents to live, but the American Way of life (or the rest of the world for that matter) wouldn’t exist as it does today without some innocents perishing along the way. Regrettable? Absolutely! Necessary? History will judge us for that. I just find it so interesting that as Americans we value our own nation’s history of bloodshed as patriotism, as long as it is only a history lesson or a really good movie.
War is neither glamorous nor fun. There are no winners, only losers. There are no good wars, with the following exceptions: The American Revolution, World War II, and the Star Wars Trilogy.
– Bart Simpson
Jesus said that there would always be wars in this world until he returns, a sad reality of a corrupt world tainted by sin. Paul instructed us as believers to live at peace as much as it depends on us.
Please, I’m not saying we should start an argument about whether or not Iraq is a just war. This blog is not the place for that. I’m saying as Believers that our role is to live peaceably and when necessary to lay down our lives for others. And it is also our duty as LT said to pray for those who are responsible for such weighty decisions as deciding the fate of innocents.
I am actually encouraged to know that Americans have the luxury - no, the duty to speak up and have a say in the cause of war. My hope is that if enough Americans get involved, then ultimately the right thing will be done.
January 18th, 2006 at 8:47 am
This comment is for this and the previous post - Not to sound funny here, but a bird needs a left and a right wing to fly. What is for the petty name calling? Everyone has a different take on the war and the role of Christianity and war. Does arguing take us any further towards enlightenment or truth? I say have your opinions and stick by them, but please, please don’t say them under any kind of umbrella that they are fact. Just because you bring ‘a” fact to the table does not make your statement as a whole truthful or even factual - it can make it an elaborate lie. We can bring scriptures to the table, we can bring statistics, etc. , but until we start listening to the others point-of-view (not waiting for our turn to attack) we will not find our revelation. Larry Taylor’s letter is proof of a humble man and can be used as an example for all of us.
Lets not confuse beleifs (that change every day) with convictions. It is your conviction that Jesus is the Christ. It is your beleif of what his teachings mean or meant. Those beleifs can change or augment at any moment, but your conviction for Jesus will be harder to change.
Is it possible in a world of agressors and pacifists to speak without an attack every five seconds?
The whole - “perception is reality” is totally a true thing. But perception is not truth. Before you are so quick to tell your fellow blogger he or she is wrong - first listen - if you disagree, then ask where it was they got that point-of-view. Everyone’s life experience, the enviornment they grew up in have a lot to do with the opinions that make up the man. Because they differ from yours does not mean they are wrong. They are different peices of the puzzle-of-life that you don’t have. We just need to realize that. Sorry to go on for so long.
mo
January 18th, 2006 at 11:47 am
Deaths in the Iraq war.
Date Min Max
9 April 2003 996 1,174
10 August 2003 6,087 7,798
25 April 2004 8,918 10,769
12 September 2004 11,797 13,806
12 March 2005 16,231 18,509
6 December 2005 27,354 30,863
The website recently released a report detailing the civilian deaths. They claim the US and its allies are responsible for 37% of the 24,865 deaths. This works out to 9,200 deaths. The remaining 15,665 deaths are attibuted to the insurgency, foreign terrorists, Iraqi forces, and crime.
Findings include: Who was killed?
* 24,865 civilians were reported killed in the first two years.
* Women and children accounted for almost 20% of all civilian deaths.
* Baghdad alone recorded almost half of all deaths.
When did they die?
* 30% of civilian deaths occurred during the invasion phase before 1 May 2003.
* Post-invasion, the number of civilians killed was almost twice as high in year two (11,351) as in year one (6,215).
Who did the killing?
* US-led forces killed 37% of civilian victims.
* Anti-occupation forces/insurgents killed 9% of civilian victims.
* Post-invasion criminal violence accounted for 36% of all deaths.
* Killings by anti-occupation forces, crime and unknown agents have shown a steady rise over the entire period.
What was the most lethal weaponry?
* Over half (53%) of all civilian deaths involved explosive devices.
* Air strikes caused most (64%) of the explosives deaths.
* Children were disproportionately affected by all explosive devices but most severely by air strikes and unexploded ordnance (including cluster bomblets).
How many were injured?
* At least 42,500 civilians were reported wounded.
* The invasion phase caused 41% of all reported injuries.
* Explosive weaponry caused a higher ratio of injuries to deaths than small arms.
* The highest wounded-to-death ratio incidents occurred during the invasion phase.
Who provided the information?
* Mortuary officials and medics were the most frequently cited witnesses.
* Three press agencies provided over one third of the reports used.
* Iraqi journalists are increasingly central to the reporting work.
January 18th, 2006 at 11:55 am
“Bonnhoeffer settled his dilemma by deciding to stop a monster from destroying more innocent people. Imagine the guilt of the polish citizens, who quietly minded their own businesses while trainloads of Jews were unloading next door at the death camp! Peaceful protests could not have dismantled the Nazi machine.”
Do we in the US have a monster at the helm?
January 19th, 2006 at 8:21 am
Do we in the US have a monster at the helm?
Did you really just compare Bush with Hitler?
If that’s where this blog is going, I’m done here…
January 19th, 2006 at 8:38 am
That’s not where this blog is going. I have my concerns about Bush, but he’s not a monster.
Anyway FICM, I liked your Bart Simpson quote. That was classic.
I new there was a reason why I hadn’t brought up the Iraq War before, now I know why. People go crazy.
That said, I really believe that this one incident with the bombing of Pakistan was immoral. I’m not using this to rally against the war, I’m talking about that specific incident. I really don’t think it was justified.
January 20th, 2006 at 4:06 am
I miss listening to LT speak…
Im just glad my brother Trent came back alive form Iraq. God only knows what he has to think about at night. Now he is in Saudia Arabia, and a little safer, but he is an American soldier in a foreign county…God I love Canada. Im all for make love not war.
January 20th, 2006 at 5:20 pm
George Bush a monster? Hardly! He is doing God’s work building a better world for his followers. Sometimes you have to give a little to get a little. I am confident that he is doing exactly what he is answered in prayer.
January 21st, 2006 at 7:02 pm
No one knows if George Bush is doing God’s work but God. I’m a little tired of people speaking as though they know what God wants and thinks. I’m also a little tired of people romanticizing the war to make themselves feel better about it. The Iraq war can not be summed up as ‘God’s work.’ I’m sorry, but it can’t!
January 25th, 2006 at 11:12 pm
As a recently discharged veteran, I feel all war is wrong. Until people accept that then there will be war. The biggest problem I have is with christian leaders. They talk as if we are doing Gods will. I dont think joining the US military is any differnt to God than joining the Jihad. Thats all Ive got. At least the military gave me a GI Bill though. That is better than 70 virgins or whatever.