Question
Posted on January 20th, 2006 by catalyst into the Uncategorized categoryWe’ve been dancing around this question for over a year now, so I’m just going to come out and ask it.
Did Dick Iverson make a mistake in choosing Frank Damazio to pastor Bible Temple?
FWIW, I think he did.
RSS feed for posts
January 20th, 2006 at 6:39 am
I don’t know if it was a mistake, but I know he was not happy with many of the ensuing changes. In one of your earliest posts I think Larry Asplund nailed it in one of his comments, the issue is a generational one. Pastor Frank’s generation came out of the anti-establishment/hippy/Jesus-freak movements. They were destined to clash with church leadership over the direction of the church at some point. Now the next generation (20-35ish year olds?) has or is coming of age and we have different views and expectations of what the church should be doing. At some point our turn will come to be in leadership and our kids will say our church sucks and we don’t know how to read the Bible. Bring it on whipper-snappers.
January 20th, 2006 at 7:46 am
Ask yourself this question. Is the church doing more for the “underprivledge” than it did before? Is the church reaching more of the lost? Is the church’s outreach programs better today then it was back then? Is the church more diverse? Does it have more of a cross section of people that reflect the city than it did back then?
Jesus seemed to have focused alot on the poor. Most people back then were. It’s the same today. Does the church follow that model?
Are we just focusing on the things we don’t like? There will always be things like that. And if so, has anyone ever taken an inventory of the all the positive things that have been done? Whichever way you answer these questions, alot of that is Frank.
January 20th, 2006 at 8:01 am
As someone who has a deep respect for Pastor Iverson. Yes, I do believe it was a mistake for Frank to succeed him. I don’t beleive this is a generational issue. There are many church’s with pastors in the same age bracket as Frank who are more effective at what a pastor is supposed to do. Though I don’t attend and havent attended CBC in a very long time, and I don’t like what I hear coming out of there. I hope in my heart that that church will rise up again and be a great church/safe-house for people. Frank has confused the church with the Ray Kroc method. Church’s are to spread its outreach, not franchise. McCity-Bible?
McDonalds food got crappy when it franchised all over the world. I hope CBC does not make the same mistake with the message.
January 20th, 2006 at 8:25 am
Recently a prominent former member of CBC told me this in regards to PF and his relationship with his church.
“The people think that Moses has come down from the mountain…they’re afraid if they don’t listen to every single word he says that they will be bitten by snakes.”
Let’s hope Dick didn’t make a mistake… for the sake of the people.
January 20th, 2006 at 9:44 am
Is there a reason that Dick makes his home church City Harvest and not City Bible?
January 20th, 2006 at 3:43 pm
The LORD Almighty has sworn,
“Surely, as I have planned, so it will be,
and as I have purposed, so it will stand.” Isaiah 14:24
Everything is as it should be.
January 20th, 2006 at 6:18 pm
I was at BT when Pastor Iverson was considering who to take over pastoring. Mark Bryan was considered. At the time rumors flew because being Iversons son-in-law favoritism would have been shown. I beleive he would have been an outstanding pastor! We are in the same age group and he has a tremendous sheperds heart. I believe he has what it would take to lead with vision and love.
Wendell did alot of kissing up to Pastor Iverson, especially from the pulpit. He really wanted to be at the helm. I truly believe he left to start his own church out of disappointment. He is doing well but I wonder how CBC would be doing if he were here. Wendell has a prophetic gift and was humble enough to listen to others.
Yes. I do believe Frank should have stayed in Eugene. His church was growing. He was pastoring in an anti-establishment/freak/hippy enviroment. Many were coming to know the saving grace and love of God. I think the power and prestige of pastoring CBC was more then he could turn down.
I remember a time when many were being saved. There was a zeal and enthusiam to know the Lord. Home fellowships were growing. At worship times you could see a silver viel over the entire sanctuary, especially when Mike Herron lead worship. The church was reaching out to the community.
After the change in leadership, I saw a recycling of Christians. People were church hoping looking to feel good and get a quick fix.
Ultimately, God’s will, will be accomplished. There is a plan, purpose and destiny for CBC. God in His wisdom and love will bring it about.
My 2 Cents,
LMLab
January 20th, 2006 at 10:25 pm
It was absolutely a big mistake…It was like giving a candy store to a kid and expecting them not to eat any of it. I love Dick and Edie Iverson to death…I mourn the Bible Temple I lost.
January 21st, 2006 at 8:00 am
Cat,
Would you say you were completely full of shit or just 50% full of shit?
January 21st, 2006 at 8:47 am
This is slightly off-topic, but if you ever get the chance I highly recommend heading south on a Sunday to visit PF’s old church in Eugene. Gary Clark, PF’s replacement, is awesome.
January 21st, 2006 at 11:50 am
It reminds me of when Israel asked for a king. And they got one. And then look what happened.
If PF ever reads this and recognizes himself in the story of Saul, I hope he considers it and prays about it.
January 21st, 2006 at 1:59 pm
I’d like to say 50 but who can really say.
January 21st, 2006 at 5:03 pm
You people really don’t like PF do you? How about Marc Estes? He’s full of energy, insightful, thought provoking, and he knows is Bible.
January 21st, 2006 at 5:34 pm
To bad he chooses to ignore it.
January 21st, 2006 at 6:01 pm
I’m too young and too stupid to speculate on what Pastor Dick should have done. The question I’d rather have answered is, Does Dick Iverson think Dick Iverson made a mistake in choosing Pastor Frank as his successor?
January 21st, 2006 at 6:01 pm
GOOD POINT!
January 21st, 2006 at 6:20 pm
I’ve heard tell that Dick Iverson DOES regret his decision.
January 21st, 2006 at 6:26 pm
Is there anything that PF has done that he would be given an A? And if no, why do alot of people feel that he is not that good of leader? I don’t know. I’m new to the church and I agree with some of the points that have been stated in previous discussions.
January 21st, 2006 at 6:33 pm
Hey here is a thought. Is PF more like JC in his behavior and decisions or more like a Pharisee in Jesus’ time?
January 22nd, 2006 at 12:12 am
If he would have chosen another pastor, and if they still had the same leadership team there is now, would it really be any different?
It seems to me like he’s not the only one who makes decisions… and that most things that go on there are not just his ideas.
January 22nd, 2006 at 2:25 am
Me answering this question is a little strange (which is why I’ve waited to do it), because it’s not just Frank I disagree with, but the whole ideological foundation of CBC. If Dick Iverson wanted to see things at “his” church go a certain way, he should’ve chosen someone whose ideals *and* personality were lined up with his own, and he should’ve chosen someone who was awed enough by him to be kept under his thumb until Dick died. So, in that sense, yes, he did make a mistake. He didn’t choose someone who’d fall in line. And, in some ways, bully for him.
Now, if what he wanted was to choose a person who was trustworthy, unselfish, or possessing other positive qualities he had in mind…well, that’s dicier. Frank knew him, and probably knew how to present himself, so who knows if anyone could’ve seen what he really was and what he was really going to do. The question is dicey because we a) don’t know what criteria Iverson was using to choose and b) don’t know what the selection process actually was. To my knowledge, there were no objective criteria worked into any of this….it was all based on how one person or small group of people felt.
People choose other people based on feelings all the time (we usually call it “dating”), so there’s nothing intrinsically wrong with that. I’m just thinking that, in a position where the “winner” stands to gain a 6-digit salary and the ideological reins to 3000 people, one might want to have some disinterested parties involved. But, that’d take de-centralization….one thing that BT/CBC has never been comfortable with. The power sits almost overwhelmingly in one person, and is influenced by only a very few other people. So, this is the kind of stuff that happens, and the little people just have to go along with it or leave.
I guess my bottom line is that it wasn’t so much this particular decision that was or wasn’t a mistake. It’s the whole process by which decisions are made that has some serious flaws.
January 22nd, 2006 at 4:12 pm
At the time, I think the decision was what Dick felt “led” to do, by God.
Did Samual regret “picking” Saul as king?
Once the decision is made, how can you say that Dick might “regret” his decision? Do you think Samual regretted his decision to listen to God?
Once that boat wheel was handed over to Frank, (I was there at the service!), Dick was out of the picture and Frank became “The Man”.
From that point forward only Frank was in control over his own actions.
I don’t think it’s fair to say that Dick made a mistake, because at the time.. if he really did his research and truly felt God telling him that Frank was the next king… then his decision was good.
From that point forward, what Frank chose to do with that power is Frank’s decision…
I hope that all makes sense. I think, *at the time the decision was made*, Dick made the right decision. I base my opinion 100% in my respect for Dick, as I do not know what prayer/fasting/word-of-God-spoken-to-him he went through. All I know is that I believe he is a man of God, and did what he felt was what God was telling/showing him to do.. at *that* time.
Let me end with this.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Now ask yourself what kind of power structure is in place at that church?
Is the leadership “team” at that church really much different then a CEO of [insert big company name here] having a “team meeting” with his sycophant VPs?
January 22nd, 2006 at 5:37 pm
To the first Anon, I truly hope that your questions were rhetorical or at least sarcastic, because the answers to all are NO.
“Is the church doing more for the “underprivledge” than it did before? Is the church reaching more of the lost? Is the church’s outreach programs better today then it was back then? Is the church more diverse? Does it have more of a cross section of people that reflect the city than it did back then?
My guess is that Dick does regret his choice…but I agree with Jiminy that the core problems were in place long before Frank took the helm. Did you ever read any of Dick’s books?! Listen to his sermons?! I’m not saying he’s all bad or that Frank is because neither is. The individual pastor isn’t the problem at CBC; the system is. The pastor there is a figure-head, like many others here have stated. CBC may not be part of a denomination, but if you think it doesn’t base most of its decisions on the views of the wealthy there, and based on what the leaders believe will best their image, you are sadly mistaken. It’s corrupt.
January 22nd, 2006 at 7:08 pm
You guys are rough! I just can’t win. But keep on keeping on! I apreciate the flip sided opinon. It makes me think. Hmm……. Something to marinate on.
ONE LOVE.
January 22nd, 2006 at 11:19 pm
Therein lies the whole problem…top down kingdom mentality…rather than a more democratic, congregationally vested Jesus first mentality. When a king can do whatever he wants, (earthly king, that is), and his subjects blindly follow, greed and corruption are always thick in the power structure. Remember, the church is God’s people, not the certain people who choose to be God’s “anointed” ones.
January 23rd, 2006 at 1:14 pm
To whomever posted this:
The LORD Almighty has sworn,
“Surely, as I have planned, so it will be,
and as I have purposed, so it will stand.” Isaiah 14:24
Everything is as it should be.
I sure hope you are joking. Is the world perfect? Does God control every detail of every action?
January 23rd, 2006 at 2:41 pm
Everything is not as it should be. But God does control every detail of every action. I would shudder to think that there were details and actions outside of His knowledge and permission. This just gets us into the talk about 2 wills of God, permisive and decreed, secret and hidden, ect. God “works all things after the council of His will.” Eph. 1:11b
January 23rd, 2006 at 3:35 pm
most recent anonymous:
That’s very pretty and neat….but, it’s not an answer. It’s pat, and it’s a copout. You’re essentially saying that if a decision is big enough and made by an important enough person who claimed to have been led by God, then that person’s decision isn’t subject to later evaluation. This is similar to the notion of papal bulls or the divine right of kings. The Magna Carta happened a long time ago, my friend….and since then, we all bear our own responsibility and we have to stand not only before God, but before other people for the decisions we make. The will of God is not in question here. The will of one person is.
January 23rd, 2006 at 4:26 pm
JC I was defending the soveriegnty of God and not Dick’s choice of PF. My two cents is that Frank got bailed out of his pastorate in Eugene before his congregation got rid of him for using their funds for more and more expansion, to bad no one at CBC has the balls and or conviction to take a stand and say the emporer has no clothes on. Plurality of elders my ass, more like plurality of yes men, don’t want to doubt your vision PF. I don’t know what goes on behind closed doors but Frank having a helicopter to fly him between campuses is the only thing that I know of that has been shot down.
January 23rd, 2006 at 4:40 pm
Last anon–are you kidding about the helicopter?
January 23rd, 2006 at 5:41 pm
I am not the last anon, but I was also there at that meeting in the PBC Chapel when he floated his idea of a Westside campus as well as the need to speak at both places. He didnt mention a simulcast but he siad he needed a helicopter to get him between places and he looked suprised when someone laughed nervously. Of course then we didn’t know that he was going to invest in bigscreens. Ha-ha amazing arogence.
THE TRUTH
January 23rd, 2006 at 8:32 pm
Where can I get info on buying a franchise?
January 23rd, 2006 at 8:56 pm
Hi Anonymous-
You stated this following phrase but I hardly doubt you discovered this for youself.
“God does control every detail of every action. I would shudder to think that there were details and actions outside of His knowledge and permission.”
How much indoctrination have you had?
Does it feel weird to be as ignorant as an islamic terrorist?
January 23rd, 2006 at 9:07 pm
Anonymous - how does it feel to be like school on Saturday? No class.
January 23rd, 2006 at 9:23 pm
www.luigicascioli.it
Google this if you want to know the truth according to historical facts.
January 24th, 2006 at 1:34 am
this post is for any real christians who might be reading these posts. keep in mind that if your for God your against him and any slander towards the church(or Christs bride as the bible puts it)is is not what a real christian would do and so dont take any of the anti Frank Demazio or cbc comments as if they are coming from people who have Christ in their life. We as christans need to just pray for these people that they can come to know Christ
January 24th, 2006 at 1:44 am
not for God your against i mean
January 24th, 2006 at 5:58 am
These last comments sound like something my father would write….
…if he were drunk.
I understand your point. It just helps if you use capital letters and punctuation.
January 24th, 2006 at 7:57 am
Catalyst, you are too funny. “If he were drunk!”, I just about fell over and spit out my coffee I ways laughing so much. That was classic.
ONE LOVE
January 24th, 2006 at 9:12 am
There is a point where it is important to take a stand for what you believe is right. You can’t just say, anon, every time someone says something against the church that it is slanderous, because there has to be room to speak up for what you believe is right. Also, there are a lot of people that CBC and PBC abandoned that have found community and understanding here, which has greatly helped them in moving on.
So, try to see the benefits of this instead of coming out in judgement and saying that we aren’t God’s people. I mean, what the hell–that’s not your place, dude.
Karli
January 24th, 2006 at 9:58 am
8:56 pm anon, What happens, pray tell, that is outside of God’s knowledge and permission? This truth does not justify Hitlers actions or our own “little” sins. It is called the mystery of paradox and not letting our own feelings of how God should be trumph what the Bible says He is in His nature character and actions.
January 24th, 2006 at 2:11 pm
“It is called the mystery of paradox and not letting our own feelings of how God should be trumph what the Bible says He is in His nature character and actions.”
Thee above remark makes about as much sense as the letters in my Cherios!
January 24th, 2006 at 4:24 pm
There are no letters in cherios just little circles.
January 24th, 2006 at 7:00 pm
Tasty little circles.
January 25th, 2006 at 12:29 pm
alphabets yum…
June 9th, 2007 at 4:26 am
[BURP]
Came across this question in my lurkings.
One time back in the 80s, my friend Gary Clark and I spent the night at Frank’s home when he was building the new sanctuary at ECF. He told us the story about how when he first informed Bro. Dick that he was planning to move to Eugene to start his church, Dick was shocked because he was planning for Frank to take over for him at BT. Frank said he was stunned at hearing this, and disappointed, as this had been his dream, too (I remember Frank still seemed upset at it even at that time). He said he then asked Dick why in the world hadn’t he informed him of that earlier, before he already had made plans to make the move!
Well anyway, they more or less came to the conclusion that Frank should go ahead with the Eugene move anyway.
So, in my youthful impertinence, I then asked Frank why it was that Bro. Dick had wanted Frank to succeed him. Kinda offended him I think. He-he. Anyway, he replied that Bro. Dick wanted someone who: 1) could preach well and, 2) had a strong prophetic mantle. Bro. Dick told him the other two candidates had been Mike Herron and Wendell Smith, so while Mark Bryan might have been potentially considered, I don’t think it was ever a serious consideration for Dick. I knew Mark quite well back in those days, we were the same year at PBC, in the same classes, etc., and though he had a strong leadership mantle, even among us students, he didn’t have any prophetic giftings that I ever knew of, though his father Gale did.
My .02, FWIW.
joebib
June 9th, 2007 at 4:29 am
I’m drooling at the prospect of hearing your proof of this.
joebib