Testify
Posted on January 22nd, 2006 by catalyst into the Uncategorized categoryFormer Bible Temple member R.B. shares her story:
I wanted to tell my story…I was a member of Bible Temple from when I was 1 week old until I was 16. We were considered outstanding members until my dad left when I was 13. My mom was ostracized by the elders and congregation for being a fallen woman.
My mom finally packed us up and left town, humiliated by BT…we were basically kicked out. No one cared we were leaving. I had gone to TCHS until my the middle of my 10th grade year…I was unprepared for the public school I had to go to until graduation so I didn’t fit in. I had been brainwashed for so many years that I married the first guy I kissed because he kissed me, and I barely knew him but I felt so guilty. Turns out he was an illegal alien and I was his prisoner and domestic violence victim for 11 years before I fled and was in shelters for abused women.
Do I blame Bible Temple? Absolutely…there is no doubt that is the reason for everything that happened to me. I forgave them all…and contacted my classmates there to tell them I thought about them. Once they found out I too was a fallen woman, I never heard from them again. I am still a Christian but I’m glad I joined the world of real people because now I see what they are truly missing and am closer to God for it. Thanks for listening…
January 22nd, 2006 at 3:55 pm
Man tht really sucks! I feel sorry that that happend to you. What you are describibg is “cult like” behavior. If what you say happend is really true, than good for you for leaving. And for your “friends” that don’t talk to you anymore because you are a “fallen woman”, you should tell them to kiss your ass with their tongues out! And what is a “fallen woman.” Your father left you and your mother. You got out of a abusive relationship. If anyone is considered fallen it would be those fools that had caused all that pain in your life. And I thought JC died for our sins so we don’t have to put up with this “fallen” nonsense.
Now I have never really had a bad experience at the church and I’ve been going for almost 8yrs. About 5yrs ago I got really sick. I didn’t know if I was going to make it. The church rallied around me and showed me how many good people that are really there. While I was recovering, the church brought my family food everyday for almost a month. The cell group I was going to at the time made it very clear that if I need anything just call. Hey, someone evn gave my family and I two thousand dollars to help pay my mounting bills! The help was so much that I told them it was enough.
So why do I tell this story? I will not judge another for how that person feels when something cold is done to them. Because if it were done to me, who knows how I would feel or react. And I know that this site is dedicated to finding fault and throwing CBC and PF under the bus. But often times when someone feels wronged, they then are looking for or should I say more sensitive to things tht are said or done. All I can say is if you go to CBC and some madness happens to you, call them on it. If a person goes there and is accountable for their actions, so are they. If scripture is quoted to justify something, that works both ways. Me, I’m not from Missouri, but in some things you still have to show me.
In the end we will all answer to the Lord for our actions. He’s going to want to know. He’s going to ask, “Is that Me or is that you?” Keep the faith. HE hasn’t forgotten us.
ONE LOVE
January 22nd, 2006 at 3:56 pm
Wow. That’s some serious shit going on there.
I’m glad you’re coming out the other side now, and hope you’re “plugged in” to a good network of solid christian friends who can help you work through things.
January 22nd, 2006 at 3:59 pm
Man tht really sucks! I feel sorry that that happend to you. What you are describibg is “cult like” behavior. If what you say happend is really true, than good for you for leaving. And for your “friends” that don’t talk to you anymore because you are a “fallen woman”, you should tell them to kiss your ass with their tongues out! And what is a “fallen woman.” Your father left you and your mother. You got out of a abusive relationship. If anyone is considered fallen it would be those fools that had caused all that pain in your life. And I thought JC died for our sins so we don’t have to put up with this “fallen” nonsense.
Now I have never really had a bad experience at the church and I’ve been going for almost 8yrs. About 5yrs ago I got really sick. I didn’t know if I was going to make it. The church rallied around me and showed me how many good people that are really there. While I was recovering, the church brought my family food everyday for almost a month. The cell group I was going to at the time made it very clear that if I need anything just call. Hey, someone evn gave my family and I two thousand dollars to help pay my mounting bills! The help was so much that I told them it was enough.
So why do I tell this story? I will not judge another for how that person feels when something cold is done to them. Because if it were done to me, who knows how I would feel or react. And I know that this site is dedicated to finding fault and throwing CBC and PF under the bus. But often times when someone feels wronged, they then are looking for or should I say more sensitive to things tht are said or done. All I can say is if you go to CBC and some madness happens to you, call them on it. If a person goes there and is accountable for their actions, so are they. If scripture is quoted to justify something, that works both ways. Me, I’m not from Missouri, but in some things you still have to show me.
In the end we will all answer to the Lord for our actions. He’s going to want to know. He’s going to ask, “Is that Me or is that you?” Keep the faith. HE hasn’t forgotten us.
ONE LOVE
January 22nd, 2006 at 5:29 pm
To the Anonymous who felt the need to post twice, I have to say that many of your comments were not at all appropriate in response to RB’s clearly horrible experience with CBC–they range from questioning whether her experience is “really true” to practically accusing her of seeing the bad in CBC “just because she wants to.” Whatever. You’re right that the Lord hasn’t forgotten us, so I guess I can forgive you for your other insensitive comments.
Now onto the real point. RB, I am truly sorry to hear about the way BT treated you and your mother, both when you left and when you later contacted your former classmates. It’s classic BT/CBC stuff: judge and ostracize that which you do not understand, blame the victim, ignoring those who are no longer “one of them,” etc. Very un-Christ-like. I whole-heartedly agree that they “set you up” for falling for the first guy you kissed, staying with him despite the abuse (1, because you didn’t have the self-respect and knowledge of your true worth to walk away; 2, because you likely had warped ideas about marriage in general and “submission” specifically; 3, because they didn’t give you any useful tools for dealing with real life). You are not a “fallen woman”…well, yes, you are, but so am I, and so is every other woman on the face of the earth and every man on the face of the earth…we’re ALL fallen and we ALL need Christ to save us from ourselves. I’m so heartened to hear that you see the authenticity that most BT/CBC-ers are missing and that you are close to God in spite of them and their warped application of Christianity. The reality is that suffering draws us closer to God; whether it comes through the hand of others or our own. Ultimately, everything that touches our lives comes from God. A hard truth sometimes, but nonetheless true. He loves us and cares about our heart and our relationship with him more than he cares about anything else, so he will take us through all kinds of experiences to help us “get it” (whatever “it” we are somehow not getting). Hope that makes sense. Anyway, what I’m trying to say is that you are so much better off than those who rejected you. They need our prayers. You are probably so equipped now to empathize with and comfort and counsel other women who are going through what you have been through. Hopefully there is some comfort in that for you. Thanks for sharing your experiences.
January 22nd, 2006 at 6:27 pm
This may sound a bit jaded and uncompassionate but that is not my intention.
While I agree that our circumstances do lead us on paths, there was no personal responsibility taken by RB in this incident. Yes sometimes we’re guilted into doing things but isn’t that guilt just as much our responsibility for giving into it than it is of those who impose it on us.
As adults we should be of clear enough mind to choose our own paths even through hurts that people or instituions wound us with.
I’ve had a lot of experience with domestic violence and I know that one person is typically guilting someone to stay and it sounds like RB has a problem with being guilted into things.
RB - I’m sorry for the things you’ve gone through and it is never alright for anyone to be abused by those closest to you, your husband or the church. Take your life in your own hands and don’t let guilt guide you. You’re responsible for the choices you make not the guilt.
And yes I’m not afraid of putting my name on this.
January 22nd, 2006 at 6:40 pm
My comments were not insensitive. I do see were she is coming from. If I were her I might feel the same way. I was responding to what she had said but also to other CBC haters out there. And no I am not calling this lady a hater. She had a bad experience. From the sounds of it, it affected her deeply. But it doesn’t really matter what I say. If I’m or anyone is agasint this dislike, discredit, or “down with CBC” agenda, I am insensitive or not undertanding. I guess I’ll have to watch what I say. Yeah right! That’s not going to happen.
And oh yeah. I did not feel the need to post twice. I made a mistake when I logged in and published. Thanks for pointing that out however. You could alway be my official spell check as well. Thanks fo looking out!
ONE LOVE(No, really.)
January 22nd, 2006 at 7:15 pm
What dose the “Reformed Pope” have to say. Are you out there brother. You know who this is. I can sure cook a good barbecue and the beers were pretty cold. And we had a pretty good conversation about this whole blog thing. Talk to me man.Where you at! I’d love to hear your opinion on all of this.
ONE LOVE
January 22nd, 2006 at 7:17 pm
As someone who left BT in the early 80’s after about 12 years, I know what it is like to be on the favored list and also on the fallen woman list. While on the favored list when I was in need there was money, prayers, friendship, etc. The minute I began to feel unsure about my place in BT and began to honestly question some of the decisions made by leadership things began to change. When I finally left…it was about a 2 year process…that was it. Party over. I was off the list. Families that had opened their homes to me, closed them. I then took a pretty hard fall spiritually, but after about 5 years or so regained my faith. But…to this day, nothing I do or say is accepted by those at BT/CBC. I am still the fallen one…the one who missed my destiny, calling. As far as they are concerned I’m a second class citizen. At CBC there is black and there is white and there is no room for any shade of grey whatsoever. Very frustrating.
By the way…PF is no Dick Iverson. Brother Dick was available to everyone, encouraged everyone, thought the best of everyone. PF is only if you are on the enlightened list.
January 22nd, 2006 at 7:41 pm
Anon,
I wasn’t referring to your post. I was referring to the remainder of my post, it was just a qualifying statement.
January 22nd, 2006 at 8:52 pm
This post has been removed by the author.
January 22nd, 2006 at 9:52 pm
Karli’s comment (cue the violins, by the way) is generally idiotic, and specifically irresponsible. If she really knew her salt on domestic violence, her comments about “So kiss, kiss all you lovely Christians–it is good for you!” and “Be who you are, love who you are…” do nothing to encourage girls and women to safeguard themselves from falling into domestic violence situations themselves. Self-restraint, which is healthy and socially proven to result in a better quality of life for individuals, is at the heart of educating and empowering women to make the wise choices they need to succeed. The fact is, there is a far greater number of women today whose lives are better because of those “annoying” safeguards at youth camp.
Sounds to me like Karli just likes throwing verbal grenades into the fire because of her own anger toward BT/CBC.
January 23rd, 2006 at 5:53 am
themackman and ONE LOVE:
Wow, who died and left you room to judge? Let he who is without sin (or crap in his life) cast the first stone.
Yes, people are responsible for their behavior, but they are also only responsible for knowing and acting upon what they know. If all she had to go on was what she was “taught” by CBC in the way she describes, then the decisions she made are absolutely logical, and we as a community have an obligation to offer our support. In any case, we as human beings have an obligation to offer her our compassion. The world isn’t an easy place for any of us to be, and we can’t help people with their pain if we don’t make an effort to understand it before we point the finger.
CL: “socially proven”? Could you vague that up for me? And how about “self-restraint”? How does not kissing until marriage go into a relationship and magically make it better…to the point that domestic violence is impossible? You and I both know that’s bologna.
The things that make a relationship go bad have nothing to do with kissing or not kissing when you’re a teenager. They have to do with power dynamic, communication skills, and a vast array of circumstances that may or may not be forseeable. The one-size-fits-all, Jesus first-yourself last-and others in between, no-divorce-without-infidelity, friendship-courtship-marriage recipe for life might work for some people. But, when it doesn’t work, when it creates a situation where people suffer great harm over decades of their life, we CANNOT blame the person for being an exception (or, to quote everyone’s posterboy, Dick Iverson, tell the woman in question that she has “a wicked heart of unbelief”). We have to evaluate the system on a case-by-case basis by what it ACTUALLY produces.
Jesus didn’t do what people expected. He was accused of turning the morality of his day upside down, and rightfully so. He did exactly that. He flew in the face of dogma and convention, and was killed for his trouble. That’s the story, right? And now we thump our Bibles at people and tell them to fall in line, because that’s the way God wants it. What makes us think we know?
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.
January 23rd, 2006 at 8:54 am
Trust me I understand all too well about what RB has gone through but I’m not interested in getting into a ‘fight’ about this.
Yes the church has a responsibility to follow the teachings in the bible but we should not be blindly following what the church says. Question everything and hold it up to the bible. I don’t know anywhere where kissing isn’t allowed or where it says that not kissing before getting married leads to good marriages. That isn’t really the issue here. The issue is blindy following the church.
I respect a lot of church leaders and I submit myself to their authority but I still question if I disagree. Why must the church keep their eyes shut and not think for themselves.
My intention in my previous post was not to judge and definetly not to set myself above anyone else. I’ve got my own isses to work through.
January 23rd, 2006 at 8:56 am
This post has been removed by the author.
January 23rd, 2006 at 9:14 am
This post has been removed by the author.
January 23rd, 2006 at 9:28 am
List said, “Self-restraint, which is healthy and socially proven to result in a better quality of life for individuals, is at the heart of educating and empowering women to make the wise choices they need to succeed.”
That is ridiculous. Self-retraint is a good quality to have, but it is hardly “at the heart” of educating and empowering women.
“Education” is the key to educating and empowering women.
List also said, “The fact is, there is a far greater number of women today whose lives are better because of those “annoying” safeguards at youth camp.”
Really? How do you know this is a fact. I’m betting you don’t. FWIW, I know a lot of girls who love sex, and also live moral successful, empowered lives.
The key to empowerment and success in life is “education” not “self-restraint”.
January 23rd, 2006 at 9:30 am
And let me just say this. At least Karli is confident and secure enough to put her name on this blog. She isn’t hiding behind some anonymous name.
Be a man Cattle List and post your name.
January 23rd, 2006 at 9:53 am
I spent years blaming CBC for everything that had gone wrong or right in my life. It was easier to blindly follow every command, every word that came from the platform because it negated my role and my responsibility in my own life. Being raised in the CBC environment is definitely difficult because you’re taught over and over to never question authority. I remember Catalyst and RP in high school, and what started out as a simple question or disagreement with authority usually ended with them getting hauled to Mr. Andrew’s office. So why would anyone ever want to think for themselves with the example that was made out of those two? This was the model I carried with me for years until I left CBC - and it took moving to another country for me to finally leave a church I was miserable in, that’s how indoctrinated I was. In the year that followed, I felt like I was coming out of a fog. I was an emotional disaster. I felt tremendous guilt for leaving, but anger at the leadership who had their best interest as the bottom line. Betrayed by pastors who made promises they never intended to keep. And I finally realized that while I had attended church my whole life and believed that I had a relationship with God, I really just had a relationship with the church. So I finally started taking responsibility for the choices I was making instead of blaming my church upbringing for my problems. My real relationship with Christ began to grow for the first time when I took what was said from the platform and weighed it against the Bible and what God was personally saying to me.
So, the point to all this? While I cannot imagine the horror of being in an abusive relationship or coming from a broken home, at what point in an adult life does one start to take responsibility for the decisions they have made? At what point do you look at your life, take stock of what it’s become, and start making decisions for yourself? I’m so fortunate that point came relatively early for me. I hope for your sake, RB, that that point comes someday soon for you.
January 23rd, 2006 at 10:01 am
I do take alot of responsibility for blindly following the church, which I did…my choices were mine but I grew up in BT for 16 years so I had alot against me to begin with. Girls raised in BT who leave BT are easy targets until they learn by hard knocks. My experience tells me that if you grow up in BT and marry in BT, you’ll be okay. They didn’t train me for the real world; they trained me for a life at BT. I’m not bitter; I’m sad…sad that my classmates and friends will never see outside of their narrow existence at BT. I learned alot from this…and I’m grateful. My world is so much bigger now. I have a great Christian network now of people who have been through real experiences and struggles and have maintained their faith and grown stronger through it. Trials and tribulations increase your character and that is something my BT acquaintances sadly lack.
January 23rd, 2006 at 10:09 am
I deleted my comments, because it seems they were completely misconstrued, but let me attempt to rephrase.
I was really addressing two different points–one, the church’s treatment of the purity issue, and two, RB directly.
RB’s comments about the rigidity of rules such as ‘one should wait to kiss the person they marry’ reminded me of how much I disagree with many churches definition of purity.
In the church, specifically CBC, since that is the church of topic, there is a huge emphasis on purity, which is great, but the manner in which it is presented does much more harm than good. It is a legalistic message with many rules for behavior that in actuality have nothing to do with the Biblical message of purity.
The church focuses the message of purity on adolescents & singles, and attempts to create an environment where everyone functions as non-sexual beings until magically, at the alter of marriage, they can become sexual beings. This sort of environment is an unnatural environment, because humans were never meant to live and function under those sorts of restrictions. I think this is a mis-interpretation of the Biblical message of purity.
There are so many walking around in the Christian community feeling less-than and fallen, because there is such an unacceptance of normal experimentation BEFORE marriage. Then, there are those who try to stifle their feelings, then when they try to talk about it, they are told to pray for deliverance. I think the church is not realistic about dating & sex.
I’m realizing at this point that this issue is so huge and problematic that it can’t be clearly articulated in a blog posting, not to mention, I’m trying to type this and care for my baby at the same time.
Anyway, I don’t expect cattle list to really get what I’m trying to say. I’ll tell you this, though, cattle list–women were never meant to live in subjection to and dominence by their hubands. This whole idea of ‘waiting until the right man comes along’ and ’saving that first kiss for the man you are going to marry’ are smaller versions of this way of thinking where women are meer bystanders and the men are making all the moves. It might not be a set-up for a domestic violence case, but it is way of thinking of that manifestation at a much smaller level.
Further, cattle list, regarding the below excerpt from your posting:
“So kiss, kiss all you lovely Christians–it is good for you!” and “Be who you are, love who you are…” do nothing to encourage girls and women to safeguard themselves from falling into domestic violence situations themselves.
Being who you are, knowing who you are, and loving who you are, not to mention possessing the ability to freely express yourself are all qualities which make one a strong individual and actually DOES help women avoid and escape from domestically violent situations.
And, no, I’m not afraid to use my name, because I would say all this and more to the faces of those at CBC if only they were interested. I have never said anything here that I haven’t attempted to say in the past, but my voice was always silenced. Remember, you aren’t supposed to question or think outside of the box presented from the pulpit of CBC.
Okay, gotta feed my baby!
Karli Kuhn
January 23rd, 2006 at 10:24 am
Hey Hannah, I really liked your recent post–good job!
Karli
January 23rd, 2006 at 10:58 am
This post has been removed by the author.
January 23rd, 2006 at 11:57 am
Sorry about the deletes. My laptop is being screwy. I’ll try to repost later on.
January 23rd, 2006 at 7:53 pm
This is a good subject to dig into. I also was a victim of a cult. I was born into a “Christian Ministry” that required its members to disclose they’re worth by tracking our tithes. We were not allowed to watch or participate in “things of the world” TV, radio, sports, music, all the things that make America, America.
This group I was born into was called Mizpah Bretheren. It was located in WA state near Centralia. This Christian Ministry had all its members scared, guilty and constantly worried that they might slip and say the wrong thing or they might “fall”.
I only bring up my past because it feels like what you went through RB and I have to say that alot of seemingly rational people made alot of mistakes. The Ministry could require people to go on mandated fasts if they had wrong thoughts, they would require that the Ministry be allowed to name your child vs. the mother, and they could require that people be divorced or married to other Ministry members on a wim if God spoke to the “leadership” or elders.
I bring this all up because after the “Christian Ministry” broke up and stole its members’ money, my parents with 5 children moved to Portland. We lived right down the street from the Bible Temple so it was an easy and close place to go. At the young age of 13, I felt as if I’d never left the Ministry. My parents were so brainwashed/wiped by the Mizpah Bretheren that they fell right into the Bible Temple system very easily. I just wanted to be a normal kid but with my childhood being so sheltered I couldn’t reach out to people.
Now I’m 27 and live a secular life. I do as I please, Im kind and I help my friends when they need it.
I however do not reach out or seek friendship with churches, temples, parishes, ect. I believe that all humans want a base of community in their life. As long as that desire for community is stronger than your personal will to achieve your individual dreams then you will always be sucked into these Churches, religions, cults, ect. My belief is that all these groups are primarily the same in that they want to control your actions, thoughts and desires. I’m over that stuff now. I could be bitter as heck and go on a huge rampage of revenge but I prefer to know that I am beyond this past situation and I choose to be an individual for the rest of my life rather than a clone in a community of organized and indexed thoughts or texts.
RB, It is up to you to grow from this. You were obviously hurt by Bible Temple. Now is a time to learn about human behaviour. Now is a real good time to find out why you continue to allow yourself to controlled by the Church system. Go out on a limb and discover a new life rather than allow others to control you. The Church owns your mind and your thoughts now. I hope you find a way through all your pain just as I have.
January 23rd, 2006 at 9:26 pm
www.luigicascioli.it
Get the truth from historical fact.
January 24th, 2006 at 12:03 am
First, let me identify myself as the “anonymous” who penned the entry under “There are still others out there.”
I find the experience of those of you who grew up at BT and TCS to be a bit different than my experience at PBC. In that you felt that you could not challenge or question. Don’t get me wrong. I very much felt that way at the MFI church I was at and can understand how those dynamics play out and believe that they prob. did and still do play out at BT/CBC.
I credit Ken Malmin and Lanny and the others though for teaching me TO question EVERYTHING and to challenge spiritual authorities and to NOT be afraid to speak up. I felt Ken esp. cultivated that spirit in his classroom, and that he was very secure in us doing this. All of the full-time teachers who taught when I was in school seemed comfortable with our true searching.
Just my 2 cents. On another note, when Pastor Iverson and Sister Edie came through our MFI church, He (who barely knew me)nearly swept me up in a bear-hug, made sure that I was always in the back with them where they were being “served,” and was completely grandfatherly and loving toward me. Sister Edie has always been lovely as well. Contrast that with Frank, whom when I went up to him and told him I was from BT just looked at me, until I mumbled something and walked away.
RB, I am sorry for your experience and wish you healing and grace.
KM
January 24th, 2006 at 12:04 am
JimmyCrickey81 why are you hating on me. I am agreement with what she said. I offer some suggestions but I feel her pain. Man, once again I can’t win. If by chance there is a slight positive CBC slant or a vacancy of “down with CBC, I’m the bad guy. And their is quite of bit of sin in my life, thank you very much! Thank you for your grace JC!
ONE LOVE
January 24th, 2006 at 2:58 am
if you guys put half the time you post all the anti pbc into reading your bible you might actually grow spritually
January 24th, 2006 at 2:58 am
if you guys put half the time you post all the anti pbc into reading your bible you might actually grow spritually
January 24th, 2006 at 8:49 am
So why aren’t you reading your bible right now, anon? Maybe you should follow your own advice instead of being so quick to give it twice.
January 24th, 2006 at 10:16 am
Look, BT played a large part in who I am today. I met alot of wonderful people there, who are my friends to this day. The friends who rejected me happen to be elders daughters. I agree with Kari Michelle…Dick and Edie Iverson are great friends to me still. What I’m concerned with most is that BT is not preparing young people for the real world, just for BT life. That is what is wrong but I don’t hate…I’m not bitter and I’m sorry if my story caused trouble for anyone here.I just always thought I was alone in my feelings about BT and I was gald to find others like me. Someday I plan to start an organization for abused women in a Christian setting…part of that will be teaching those young people self-esteem and what to look for in an abusive relationship so they can defend themselves and have healthy relationships…and I’ll do that in the churches like BT.
January 24th, 2006 at 11:23 am
RB - I didn’t mean any offence by what I said previously. Obviously I didn’t have the whole story! It is good to hear that even the worst of situations can be turned into something great. Cliche I know but beauty from ashes.
January 24th, 2006 at 11:24 am
RB,
Love your proactivity! Way to be, girl, and when you start that organization, I hope I’m around to help.
ONE LOVE: Hating? How was what I said “hateful”? I was simply responding to your assertion that what you said wasn’t insensitive. If I perceived your commentary (and mackman’s, for that matter) as insensitive, then for at least one person (and I’m willing to bet it wasn’t only me) it WAS insensitive. That’s the trouble with communication — it’s both perceived and intended, and the speaker is resposible for what they said both in the world of intention and in the world of perception. That’s the breaks, buddy. That’s not hate…just reality.
January 24th, 2006 at 12:13 pm
Reading thru the posts I noticed a point that really hit me with a truth.
I became a christian in 1978. Within 2 months begane attending PBC. I truly wanted to please God and do what was considered “right”. For someone that had previously been a wild child and participated in drugs and drink, it was for me going from one addiction to another. From drugs to co-dependancy. To have love and approval I did what was asked. Not thinking for myself led to alot of pain and heart ache.
It took leaving BT and learning to think for myself, make my own decision that a healing, a health and a balnce begane to transpire in my life.
Looking back I realize I wanted a sense of family and community which I did not have. I was willing to go against my better judgement and even marry somene the elders all agreed was God’s will for me. All except Bro. Dick Andrew. We had nothing in common except God. This was a mismatch and painfull experience from the beginning. I had backed out twice but was told it was God’s will. I trusted elders instead of listening to that still small voice of God.
With all that said, my point is:
We were trained to live and function within the walls of BT and not in the reality of real life.
Take Care,
LMLab
January 24th, 2006 at 12:21 pm
I have thought for a long time that the motivation to attend church for a lot of people is not necessarily a spiritual one, but the desire for community, which is desperately lacking in this culture! Since leaving CBC 8 years ago (I haven’t attended church since), I have often missed the sense of community, but refuse to go to church based on that need alone. There are lots of ways to become part of a community outside of church, however, and I am currently looking into some of those options.
And LmLab’s point about BT training it’s church to function within the church but not outside it is a big problem, I think, for a lot of people that came out of that environment. Especially if you added a year or two of PBC life into the mix…
Karli
January 24th, 2006 at 12:29 pm
“its church” not “it’s church”
I wish there was a way to edit these postings!
January 24th, 2006 at 12:32 pm
Karli Kuhn - how right you are. I’m battle-tested now, but I was clueless about the realities of life after growing up around BT/MFI. My year at PBC probably didn’t make me any worse off because I wasn’t really paying attention. But I don’t think it prepared me for anything either, except how to bribe friends into becoming the third-wheel of my “social unit.”
January 24th, 2006 at 1:33 pm
Oh, geez–the social unit! I can’t believe it was a rule! It totally encouraged everyone to use & manipulate each other into being a third or fifth wheel. Talk about dysfunctional behaviors!
Karli
January 24th, 2006 at 5:27 pm
I’m RB…Thanks for your encouragement. I love reading all these comments…Individuality is what makes the world great!
January 24th, 2006 at 7:04 pm
ONE LOVE,
Send me your email address.
I’d love to get together again to discuss WHY.
(mortonjp14@hotmail.com)
January 25th, 2006 at 1:32 am
Anonymous said…
Wow! It’s amazing how the power of technology now enables a protester to state their complaints from the comfort of their own home in complete anonymity. This way the voice of slander and character assassination never needs to show it’s cowardly face.
No matter what organization a leader may associate with, he will always expect a certain amount of criticism. However, you Morton Boys, and Gal, have taken criticism to a whole new level. You need to understand, the nature in which these pages are being written might sting the leadership, but the real pain will be felt by people that you have shown no regard for by the way you have handled your opinions. Please let me explain:
You speak of this web site as “revealing the truth about City Bible Church.” Well, an important thing about truth is getting your facts straight. Obviously you are hyper sensitive to the prospect of tithing and giving. So much so, that the very words become an opportunity to gain inebriation rather than learning. However, you obviously have nothing left to learn, which is evident by your ability to take words, statements and scriptures out of context in order to prove your shallow minded points. So let’s leave that alone for the moment and actually take some time to explore the facts.
Here are the types of people and ministries that your “truthful” revelations will actually hurt:
Let’s begin by addressing your comments about how City Business Church ignores the poor in order to line the pockets of the leadership. Let’s begin with the food house ministry. Due to the tireless efforts of the team that gathers and organizes this ministry, more food is distributed to the poor and needy on a monthly basis than the Portland organization, Meals on Wheels, does in an entire year. This doesn’t even include the thousands of dollars that are put towards rent, mortgage and utility payments for those who are in financial crisis. Nor does it include the extra wave of food distribution during the holiday season. 500 boxes were distributed on Thanksgiving alone. Also, over 500 families, who otherwise wouldn’t, will receive gifts for Christmas. Even as I write, dozens of volunteers are wrapping those gifts to make it as special as possible for the children involved. I’m sure that your comments will make them feel all warm and cozy about their efforts.
Your work on the Double Elder article was amazing. Actually, what’s so amazing is that you have no clue what you’re talking about. Yes, there is $2.7 remaining on the East campus and yes there is now $4.5 owing on the West campus. However, in your eagerness to paint a picture of deception, you missed the part where the West campus congregation actually covers the cost for the West campus. That’s right, other than the original start-up funds, it’s actually self-sustaining without subsidy from the East. Meanwhile, the overall budget has remained on task. This person you refer to as “Double Elder” and “spy” should actually be commended for his dedication towards being a good steward over that which the church body has charged him with. Again, I’m sure that your kind words have all but made up for his sleepless nights, time away from his family and the pressure to be accountable for every penny. This also makes me wonder how his family would feel if they were to read your words. Hmmm, very considerate of you.
You like to crunch numbers on the conferences to paint a picture of lucrative and shady business schemes. Does it matter to you that much of the income is used to send well over 150 young people to summer camp every year? Probably not, considering that you would only view that as hype that will vanish after two weeks.
Take into consideration the hundreds of small group leaders that continually open their homes to meet, strengthen and build relationships. They do this because they believe that everyone should have people in their lives for the good times and the bad. They believe that no one should be alone. Does it matter to you that your words will hurt them?
How about your pastor? Does your web site have his best interest at heart? Is this the type of effort that he would endorse and consider being a worthy investment of your time and energy? Would it be possible that he would feel it doesn’t represent him or the spirit in which he would lead the church? Is he a man who would value his fellow laborers? Or would he sit by and watch as people in his congregation attack other parts of the body, instead of working out their differences peacefully, biblically and yes - respectfully? Have you considered this?
You mention how Pastor Jack Louman was actually helpful to you during a difficult time of bitterness and frustration in your life. Well I’m sure that he feels your appreciation when you trash everything and everyone that he has poured his life into.
The point is that you are so busy looking for flaws, deception and acts of malicious intent that you have no eye to see the good. Even if I were to come to Pastor Frank Damazio’s defense, which he doesn’t need, it would be wasted because you have already made up your mind. So much so that you are able to callously lie about the words, intent and spirit in which he preaches and teaches. I.e. Damazio 3:16.
Here’s one last thought. Considering you have shown such tremendous concern for the poor and needy, why not publish how the rest of us can get involved with your humanitarian effort. However, in the chance that this doesn’t exist, how about if you cut the hypocrisy and help distribute some food boxes. After all, the work is plenty but the laborers are few. It would seem, however, that the critics are not. Besides, the being that you affectionately refer to as “Satan Claus” must be laughing all the way to the bank. Considering you have taken his place and are doing his job as the accuser of the brethren. With Christians like you, who needs him?
Wow! It’s amazing how the power of technology now enables a protester to state their complaints from the comfort of their own home in complete anonymity. This way the voice of slander and character assassination never needs to show it’s cowardly face.
No matter what organization a leader may associate with, he will always expect a certain amount of criticism. However, you Morton Boys, and Gal, have taken criticism to a whole new level. You need to understand, the nature in which these pages are being written might sting the leadership, but the real pain will be felt by people that you have shown no regard for by the way you have handled your opinions. Please let me explain:
You speak of this web site as “revealing the truth about City Bible Church.” Well, an important thing about truth is getting your facts straight. Obviously you are hyper sensitive to the prospect of tithing and giving. So much so, that the very words become an opportunity to gain inebriation rather than learning. However, you obviously have nothing left to learn, which is evident by your ability to take words, statements and scriptures out of context in order to prove your shallow minded points. So let’s leave that alone for the moment and actually take some time to explore the facts.
Here are the types of people and ministries that your “truthful” revelations will actually hurt:
Let’s begin by addressing your comments about how City Business Church ignores the poor in order to line the pockets of the leadership. Let’s begin with the food house ministry. Due to the tireless efforts of the team that gathers and organizes this ministry, more food is distributed to the poor and needy on a monthly basis than the Portland organization, Meals on Wheels, does in an entire year. This doesn’t even include the thousands of dollars that are put towards rent, mortgage and utility payments for those who are in financial crisis. Nor does it include the extra wave of food distribution during the holiday season. 500 boxes were distributed on Thanksgiving alone. Also, over 500 families, who otherwise wouldn’t, will receive gifts for Christmas. Even as I write, dozens of volunteers are wrapping those gifts to make it as special as possible for the children involved. I’m sure that your comments will make them feel all warm and cozy about their efforts.
Your work on the Double Elder article was amazing. Actually, what’s so amazing is that you have no clue what you’re talking about. Yes, there is $2.7 remaining on the East campus and yes there is now $4.5 owing on the West campus. However, in your eagerness to paint a picture of deception, you missed the part where the West campus congregation actually covers the cost for the West campus. That’s right, other than the original start-up funds, it’s actually self-sustaining without subsidy from the East. Meanwhile, the overall budget has remained on task. This person you refer to as “Double Elder” and “spy” should actually be commended for his dedication towards being a good steward over that which the church body has charged him with. Again, I’m sure that your kind words have all but made up for his sleepless nights, time away from his family and the pressure to be accountable for every penny. This also makes me wonder how his family would feel if they were to read your words. Hmmm, very considerate of you.
You like to crunch numbers on the conferences to paint a picture of lucrative and shady business schemes. Does it matter to you that much of the income is used to send well over 150 young people to summer camp every year? Probably not, considering that you would only view that as hype that will vanish after two weeks.
Take into consideration the hundreds of small group leaders that continually open their homes to meet, strengthen and build relationships. They do this because they believe that everyone should have people in their lives for the good times and the bad. They believe that no one should be alone. Does it matter to you that your words will hurt them?
How about your pastor? Does your web site have his best interest at heart? Is this the type of effort that he would endorse and consider being a worthy investment of your time and energy? Would it be possible that he would feel it doesn’t represent him or the spirit in which he would lead the church? Is he a man who would value his fellow laborers? Or would he sit by and watch as people in his congregation attack other parts of the body, instead of working out their differences peacefully, biblically and yes - respectfully? Have you considered this?
You mention how Pastor Jack Louman was actually helpful to you during a difficult time of bitterness and frustration in your life. Well I’m sure that he feels your appreciation when you trash everything and everyone that he has poured his life into.
The point is that you are so busy looking for flaws, deception and acts of malicious intent that you have no eye to see the good. Even if I were to come to Pastor Frank Damazio’s defense, which he doesn’t need, it would be wasted because you have already made up your mind. So much so that you are able to callously lie about the words, intent and spirit in which he preaches and teaches. I.e. Damazio 3:16.
Here’s one last thought. Considering you have shown such tremendous concern for the poor and needy, why not publish how the rest of us can get involved with your humanitarian effort. However, in the chance that this doesn’t exist, how about if you cut the hypocrisy and help distribute some food boxes. After all, the work is plenty but the laborers are few. It would seem, however, that the critics are not. Besides, the being that you affectionately refer to as “Satan Claus” must be laughing all the way to the bank. Considering you have taken his place and are doing his job as the accuser of the brethren. With Christians like you, who needs him?
Wow! It’s amazing how the power of technology now enables a protester to state their complaints from the comfort of their own home in complete anonymity. This way the voice of slander and character assassination never needs to show it’s cowardly face.
No matter what organization a leader may associate with, he will always expect a certain amount of criticism. However, you Morton Boys, and Gal, have taken criticism to a whole new level. You need to understand, the nature in which these pages are being written might sting the leadership, but the real pain will be felt by people that you have shown no regard for by the way you have handled your opinions. Please let me explain:
You speak of this web site as “revealing the truth about City Bible Church.” Well, an important thing about truth is getting your facts straight. Obviously you are hyper sensitive to the prospect of tithing and giving. So much so, that the very words become an opportunity to gain inebriation rather than learning. However, you obviously have nothing left to learn, which is evident by your ability to take words, statements and scriptures out of context in order to prove your shallow minded points. So let’s leave that alone for the moment and actually take some time to explore the facts.
Here are the types of people and ministries that your “truthful” revelations will actually hurt:
Let’s begin by addressing your comments about how City Business Church ignores the poor in order to line the pockets of the leadership. Let’s begin with the food house ministry. Due to the tireless efforts of the team that gathers and organizes this ministry, more food is distributed to the poor and needy on a monthly basis than the Portland organization, Meals on Wheels, does in an entire year. This doesn’t even include the thousands of dollars that are put towards rent, mortgage and utility payments for those who are in financial crisis. Nor does it include the extra wave of food distribution during the holiday season. 500 boxes were distributed on Thanksgiving alone. Also, over 500 families, who otherwise wouldn’t, will receive gifts for Christmas. Even as I write, dozens of volunteers are wrapping those gifts to make it as special as possible for the children involved. I’m sure that your comments will make them feel all warm and cozy about their efforts.
Your work on the Double Elder article was amazing. Actually, what’s so amazing is that you have no clue what you’re talking about. Yes, there is $2.7 remaining on the East campus and yes there is now $4.5 owing on the West campus. However, in your eagerness to paint a picture of deception, you missed the part where the West campus congregation actually covers the cost for the West campus. That’s right, other than the original start-up funds, it’s actually self-sustaining without subsidy from the East. Meanwhile, the overall budget has remained on task. This person you refer to as “Double Elder” and “spy” should actually be commended for his dedication towards being a good steward over that which the church body has charged him with. Again, I’m sure that your kind words have all but made up for his sleepless nights, time away from his family and the pressure to be accountable for every penny. This also makes me wonder how his family would feel if they were to read your words. Hmmm, very considerate of you.
You like to crunch numbers on the conferences to paint a picture of lucrative and shady business schemes. Does it matter to you that much of the income is used to send well over 150 young people to summer camp every year? Probably not, considering that you would only view that as hype that will vanish after two weeks.
Take into consideration the hundreds of small group leaders that continually open their homes to meet, strengthen and build relationships. They do this because they believe that everyone should have people in their lives for the good times and the bad. They believe that no one should be alone. Does it matter to you that your words will hurt them?
How about your pastor? Does your web site have his best interest at heart? Is this the type of effort that he would endorse and consider being a worthy investment of your time and energy? Would it be possible that he would feel it doesn’t represent him or the spirit in which he would lead the church? Is he a man who would value his fellow laborers? Or would he sit by and watch as people in his congregation attack other parts of the body, instead of working out their differences peacefully, biblically and yes - respectfully? Have you considered this?
You mention how Pastor Jack Louman was actually helpful to you during a difficult time of bitterness and frustration in your life. Well I’m sure that he feels your appreciation when you trash everything and everyone that he has poured his life into.
The point is that you are so busy looking for flaws, deception and acts of malicious intent that you have no eye to see the good. Even if I were to come to Pastor Frank Damazio’s defense, which he doesn’t need, it would be wasted because you have already made up your mind. So much so that you are able to callously lie about the words, intent and spirit in which he preaches and teaches. I.e. Damazio 3:16.
Here’s one last thought. Considering you have shown such tremendous concern for the poor and needy, why not publish how the rest of us can get involved with your humanitarian effort. However, in the chance that this doesn’t exist, how about if you cut the hypocrisy and help distribute some food boxes. After all, the work is plenty but the laborers are few. It would seem, however, that the critics are not. Besides, the being that you affectionately refer to as “Satan Claus” must be laughing all the way to the bank. Considering you have taken his place and are doing his job as the accuser of the brethren. With Christians like you, who needs him?
Wow! It’s amazing how the power of technology now enables a protester to state their complaints from the comfort of their own home in complete anonymity. This way the voice of slander and character assassination never needs to show it’s cowardly face.
No matter what organization a leader may associate with, he will always expect a certain amount of criticism. However, you Morton Boys, and Gal, have taken criticism to a whole new level. You need to understand, the nature in which these pages are being written might sting the leadership, but the real pain will be felt by people that you have shown no regard for by the way you have handled your opinions. Please let me explain:
You speak of this web site as “revealing the truth about City Bible Church.” Well, an important thing about truth is getting your facts straight. Obviously you are hyper sensitive to the prospect of tithing and giving. So much so, that the very words become an opportunity to gain inebriation rather than learning. However, you obviously have nothing left to learn, which is evident by your ability to take words, statements and scriptures out of context in order to prove your shallow minded points. So let’s leave that alone for the moment and actually take some time to explore the facts.
Here are the types of people and ministries that your “truthful” revelations will actually hurt:
Let’s begin by addressing your comments about how City Business Church ignores the poor in order to line the pockets of the leadership. Let’s begin with the food house ministry. Due to the tireless efforts of the team that gathers and organizes this ministry, more food is distributed to the poor and needy on a monthly basis than the Portland organization, Meals on Wheels, does in an entire year. This doesn’t even include the thousands of dollars that are put towards rent, mortgage and utility payments for those who are in financial crisis. Nor does it include the extra wave of food distribution during the holiday season. 500 boxes were distributed on Thanksgiving alone. Also, over 500 families, who otherwise wouldn’t, will receive gifts for Christmas. Even as I write, dozens of volunteers are wrapping those gifts to make it as special as possible for the children involved. I’m sure that your comments will make them feel all warm and cozy about their efforts.
Your work on the Double Elder article was amazing. Actually, what’s so amazing is that you have no clue what you’re talking about. Yes, there is $2.7 remaining on the East campus and yes there is now $4.5 owing on the West campus. However, in your eagerness to paint a picture of deception, you missed the part where the West campus congregation actually covers the cost for the West campus. That’s right, other than the original start-up funds, it’s actually self-sustaining without subsidy from the East. Meanwhile, the overall budget has remained on task. This person you refer to as “Double Elder” and “spy” should actually be commended for his dedication towards being a good steward over that which the church body has charged him with. Again, I’m sure that your kind words have all but made up for his sleepless nights, time away from his family and the pressure to be accountable for every penny. This also makes me wonder how his family would feel if they were to read your words. Hmmm, very considerate of you.
You like to crunch numbers on the conferences to paint a picture of lucrative and shady business schemes. Does it matter to you that much of the income is used to send well over 150 young people to summer camp every year? Probably not, considering that you would only view that as hype that will vanish after two weeks.
Take into consideration the hundreds of small group leaders that continually open their homes to meet, strengthen and build relationships. They do this because they believe that everyone should have people in their lives for the good times and the bad. They believe that no one should be alone. Does it matter to you that your words will hurt them?
How about your pastor? Does your web site have his best interest at heart? Is this the type of effort that he would endorse and consider being a worthy investment of your time and energy? Would it be possible that he would feel it doesn’t represent him or the spirit in which he would lead the church? Is he a man who would value his fellow laborers? Or would he sit by and watch as people in his congregation attack other parts of the body, instead of working out their differences peacefully, biblically and yes - respectfully? Have you considered this?
You mention how Pastor Jack Louman was actually helpful to you during a difficult time of bitterness and frustration in your life. Well I’m sure that he feels your appreciation when you trash everything and everyone that he has poured his life into.
The point is that you are so busy looking for flaws, deception and acts of malicious intent that you have no eye to see the good. Even if I were to come to Pastor Frank Damazio’s defense, which he doesn’t need, it would be wasted because you have already made up your mind. So much so that you are able to callously lie about the words, intent and spirit in which he preaches and teaches. I.e. Damazio 3:16.
Here’s one last thought. Considering you have shown such tremendous concern for the poor and needy, why not publish how the rest of us can get involved with your humanitarian effort. However, in the chance that this doesn’t exist, how about if you cut the hypocrisy and help distribute some food boxes. After all, the work is plenty but the laborers are few. It would seem, however, that the critics are not. Besides, the being that you affectionately refer to as “Satan Claus” must be laughing all the way to the bank. Considering you have taken his place and are doing his job as the accuser of the brethren. With Christians like you, who needs him?
Wow! It’s amazing how the power of technology now enables a protester to state their complaints from the comfort of their own home in complete anonymity. This way the voice of slander and character assassination never needs to show it’s cowardly face.
No matter what organization a leader may associate with, he will always expect a certain amount of criticism. However, you Morton Boys, and Gal, have taken criticism to a whole new level. You need to understand, the nature in which these pages are being written might sting the leadership, but the real pain will be felt by people that you have shown no regard for by the way you have handled your opinions. Please let me explain:
You speak of this web site as “revealing the truth about City Bible Church.” Well, an important thing about truth is getting your facts straight. Obviously you are hyper sensitive to the prospect of tithing and giving. So much so, that the very words become an opportunity to gain inebriation rather than learning. However, you obviously have nothing left to learn, which is evident by your ability to take words, statements and scriptures out of context in order to prove your shallow minded points. So let’s leave that alone for the moment and actually take some time to explore the facts.
Here are the types of people and ministries that your “truthful” revelations will actually hurt:
Let’s begin by addressing your comments about how City Business Church ignores the poor in order to line the pockets of the leadership. Let’s begin with the food house ministry. Due to the tireless efforts of the team that gathers and organizes this ministry, more food is distributed to the poor and needy on a monthly basis than the Portland organization, Meals on Wheels, does in an entire year. This doesn’t even include the thousands of dollars that are put towards rent, mortgage and utility payments for those who are in financial crisis. Nor does it include the extra wave of food distribution during the holiday season. 500 boxes were distributed on Thanksgiving alone. Also, over 500 families, who otherwise wouldn’t, will receive gifts for Christmas. Even as I write, dozens of volunteers are wrapping those gifts to make it as special as possible for the children involved. I’m sure that your comments will make them feel all warm and cozy about their efforts.
Your work on the Double Elder article was amazing. Actually, what’s so amazing is that you have no clue what you’re talking about. Yes, there is $2.7 remaining on the East campus and yes there is now $4.5 owing on the West campus. However, in your eagerness to paint a picture of deception, you missed the part where the West campus congregation actually covers the cost for the West campus. That’s right, other than the original start-up funds, it’s actually self-sustaining without subsidy from the East. Meanwhile, the overall budget has remained on task. This person you refer to as “Double Elder” and “spy” should actually be commended for his dedication towards being a good steward over that which the church body has charged him with. Again, I’m sure that your kind words have all but made up for his sleepless nights, time away from his family and the pressure to be accountable for every penny. This also makes me wonder how his family would feel if they were to read your words. Hmmm, very considerate of you.
You like to crunch numbers on the conferences to paint a picture of lucrative and shady business schemes. Does it matter to you that much of the income is used to send well over 150 young people to summer camp every year? Probably not, considering that you would only view that as hype that will vanish after two weeks.
Take into consideration the hundreds of small group leaders that continually open their homes to meet, strengthen and build relationships. They do this because they believe that everyone should have people in their lives for the good times and the bad. They believe that no one should be alone. Does it matter to you that your words will hurt them?
How about your pastor? Does your web site have his best interest at heart? Is this the type of effort that he would endorse and consider being a worthy investment of your time and energy? Would it be possible that he would feel it doesn’t represent him or the spirit in which he would lead the church? Is he a man who would value his fellow laborers? Or would he sit by and watch as people in his congregation attack other parts of the body, instead of working out their differences peacefully, biblically and yes - respectfully? Have you considered this?
You mention how Pastor Jack Louman was actually helpful to you during a difficult time of bitterness and frustration in your life. Well I’m sure that he feels your appreciation when you trash everything and everyone that he has poured his life into.
The point is that you are so busy looking for flaws, deception and acts of malicious intent that you have no eye to see the good. Even if I were to come to Pastor Frank Damazio’s defense, which he doesn’t need, it would be wasted because you have already made up your mind. So much so that you are able to callously lie about the words, intent and spirit in which he preaches and teaches. I.e. Damazio 3:16.
Here’s one last thought. Considering you have shown such tremendous concern for the poor and needy, why not publish how the rest of us can get involved with your humanitarian effort. However, in the chance that this doesn’t exist, how about if you cut the hypocrisy and help distribute some food boxes. After all, the work is plenty but the laborers are few. It would seem, however, that the critics are not. Besides, the being that you affectionately refer to as “Satan Claus” must be laughing all the way to the bank. Considering you have taken his place and are doing his job as the accuser of the brethren. With Christians like you, who needs him?
Wow! It’s amazing how the power of technology now enables a protester to state their complaints from the comfort of their own home in complete anonymity. This way the voice of slander and character assassination never needs to show it’s cowardly face.
No matter what organization a leader may associate with, he will always expect a certain amount of criticism. However, you Morton Boys, and Gal, have taken criticism to a whole new level. You need to understand, the nature in which these pages are being written might sting the leadership, but the real pain will be felt by people that you have shown no regard for by the way you have handled your opinions. Please let me explain:
You speak of this web site as “revealing the truth about City Bible Church.” Well, an important thing about truth is getting your facts straight. Obviously you are hyper sensitive to the prospect of tithing and giving. So much so, that the very words become an opportunity to gain inebriation rather than learning. However, you obviously have nothing left to learn, which is evident by your ability to take words, statements and scriptures out of context in order to prove your shallow minded points. So let’s leave that alone for the moment and actually take some time to explore the facts.
Here are the types of people and ministries that your “truthful” revelations will actually hurt:
Let’s begin by addressing your comments about how City Business Church ignores the poor in order to line the pockets of the leadership. Let’s begin with the food house ministry. Due to the tireless efforts of the team that gathers and organizes this ministry, more food is distributed to the poor and needy on a monthly basis than the Portland organization, Meals on Wheels, does in an entire year. This doesn’t even include the thousands of dollars that are put towards rent, mortgage and utility payments for those who are in financial crisis. Nor does it include the extra wave of food distribution during the holiday season. 500 boxes were distributed on Thanksgiving alone. Also, over 500 families, who otherwise wouldn’t, will receive gifts for Christmas. Even as I write, dozens of volunteers are wrapping those gifts to make it as special as possible for the children involved. I’m sure that your comments will make them feel all warm and cozy about their efforts.
Your work on the Double Elder article was amazing. Actually, what’s so amazing is that you have no clue what you’re talking about. Yes, there is $2.7 remaining on the East campus and yes there is now $4.5 owing on the West campus. However, in your eagerness to paint a picture of deception, you missed the part where the West campus congregation actually covers the cost for the West campus. That’s right, other than the original start-up funds, it’s actually self-sustaining without subsidy from the East. Meanwhile, the overall budget has remained on task. This person you refer to as “Double Elder” and “spy” should actually be commended for his dedication towards being a good steward over that which the church body has charged him with. Again, I’m sure that your kind words have all but made up for his sleepless nights, time away from his family and the pressure to be accountable for every penny. This also makes me wonder how his family would feel if they were to read your words. Hmmm, very considerate of you.
You like to crunch numbers on the conferences to paint a picture of lucrative and shady business schemes. Does it matter to you that much of the income is used to send well over 150 young people to summer camp every year? Probably not, considering that you would only view that as hype that will vanish after two weeks.
Take into consideration the hundreds of small group leaders that continually open their homes to meet, strengthen and build relationships. They do this because they believe that everyone should have people in their lives for the good times and the bad. They believe that no one should be alone. Does it matter to you that your words will hurt them?
How about your pastor? Does your web site have his best interest at heart? Is this the type of effort that he would endorse and consider being a worthy investment of your time and energy? Would it be possible that he would feel it doesn’t represent him or the spirit in which he would lead the church? Is he a man who would value his fellow laborers? Or would he sit by and watch as people in his congregation attack other parts of the body, instead of working out their differences peacefully, biblically and yes - respectfully? Have you considered this?
You mention how Pastor Jack Louman was actually helpful to you during a difficult time of bitterness and frustration in your life. Well I’m sure that he feels your appreciation when you trash everything and everyone that he has poured his life into.
The point is that you are so busy looking for flaws, deception and acts of malicious intent that you have no eye to see the good. Even if I were to come to Pastor Frank Damazio’s defense, which he doesn’t need, it would be wasted because you have already made up your mind. So much so that you are able to callously lie about the words, intent and spirit in which he preaches and teaches. I.e. Damazio 3:16.
Here’s one last thought. Considering you have shown such tremendous concern for the poor and needy, why not publish how the rest of us can get involved with your humanitarian effort. However, in the chance that this doesn’t exist, how about if you cut the hypocrisy and help distribute some food boxes. After all, the work is plenty but the laborers are few. It would seem, however, that the critics are not. Besides, the being that you affectionately refer to as “Satan Claus” must be laughing all the way to the bank. Considering you have taken his place and are doing his job as the accuser of the brethren. With Christians like you, who needs him?
Wow! It’s amazing how the power of technology now enables a protester to state their complaints from the comfort of their own home in complete anonymity. This way the voice of slander and character assassination never needs to show it’s cowardly face.
No matter what organization a leader may associate with, he will always expect a certain amount of criticism. However, you Morton Boys, and Gal, have taken criticism to a whole new level. You need to understand, the nature in which these pages are being written might sting the leadership, but the real pain will be felt by people that you have shown no regard for by the way you have handled your opinions. Please let me explain:
You speak of this web site as “revealing the truth about City Bible Church.” Well, an important thing about truth is getting your facts straight. Obviously you are hyper sensitive to the prospect of tithing and giving. So much so, that the very words become an opportunity to gain inebriation rather than learning. However, you obviously have nothing left to learn, which is evident by your ability to take words, statements and scriptures out of context in order to prove your shallow minded points. So let’s leave that alone for the moment and actually take some time to explore the facts.
Here are the types of people and ministries that your “truthful” revelations will actually hurt:
Let’s begin by addressing your comments about how City Business Church ignores the poor in order to line the pockets of the leadership. Let’s begin with the food house ministry. Due to the tireless efforts of the team that gathers and organizes this ministry, more food is distributed to the poor and needy on a monthly basis than the Portland organization, Meals on Wheels, does in an entire year. This doesn’t even include the thousands of dollars that are put towards rent, mortgage and utility payments for those who are in financial crisis. Nor does it include the extra wave of food distribution during the holiday season. 500 boxes were distributed on Thanksgiving alone. Also, over 500 families, who otherwise wouldn’t, will receive gifts for Christmas. Even as I write, dozens of volunteers are wrapping those gifts to make it as special as possible for the children involved. I’m sure that your comments will make them feel all warm and cozy about their efforts.
Your work on the Double Elder article was amazing. Actually, what’s so amazing is that you have no clue what you’re talking about. Yes, there is $2.7 remaining on the East campus and yes there is now $4.5 owing on the West campus. However, in your eagerness to paint a picture of deception, you missed the part where the West campus congregation actually covers the cost for the West campus. That’s right, other than the original start-up funds, it’s actually self-sustaining without subsidy from the East. Meanwhile, the overall budget has remained on task. This person you refer to as “Double Elder” and “spy” should actually be commended for his dedication towards being a good steward over that which the church body has charged him with. Again, I’m sure that your kind words have all but made up for his sleepless nights, time away from his family and the pressure to be accountable for every penny. This also makes me wonder how his family would feel if they were to read your words. Hmmm, very considerate of you.
You like to crunch numbers on the conferences to paint a picture of lucrative and shady business schemes. Does it matter to you that much of the income is used to send well over 150 young people to summer camp every year? Probably not, considering that you would only view that as hype that will vanish after two weeks.
Take into consideration the hundreds of small group leaders that continually open their homes to meet, strengthen and build relationships. They do this because they believe that everyone should have people in their lives for the good times and the bad. They believe that no one should be alone. Does it matter to you that your words will hurt them?
How about your pastor? Does your web site have his best interest at heart? Is this the type of effort that he would endorse and consider being a worthy investment of your time and energy? Would it be possible that he would feel it doesn’t represent him or the spirit in which he would lead the church? Is he a man who would value his fellow laborers? Or would he sit by and watch as people in his congregation attack other parts of the body, instead of working out their differences peacefully, biblically and yes - respectfully? Have you considered this?
You mention how Pastor Jack Louman was actually helpful to you during a difficult time of bitterness and frustration in your life. Well I’m sure that he feels your appreciation when you trash everything and everyone that he has poured his life into.
The point is that you are so busy looking for flaws, deception and acts of malicious intent that you have no eye to see the good. Even if I were to come to Pastor Frank Damazio’s defense, which he doesn’t need, it would be wasted because you have already made up your mind. So much so that you are able to callously lie about the words, intent and spirit in which he preaches and teaches. I.e. Damazio 3:16.
Here’s one last thought. Considering you have shown such tremendous concern for the poor and needy, why not publish how the rest of us can get involved with your humanitarian effort. However, in the chance that this doesn’t exist, how about if you cut the hypocrisy and help distribute some food boxes. After all, the work is plenty but the laborers are few. It would seem, however, that the critics are not. Besides, the being that you affectionately refer to as “Satan Claus” must be laughing all the way to the bank. Considering you have taken his place and are doing his job as the accuser of the brethren. With Christians like you, who needs him?
Wow! It’s amazing how the power of technology now enables a protester to state their complaints from the comfort of their own home in complete anonymity. This way the voice of slander and character assassination never needs to show it’s cowardly face.
No matter what organization a leader may associate with, he will always expect a certain amount of criticism. However, you Morton Boys, and Gal, have taken criticism to a whole new level. You need to understand, the nature in which these pages are being written might sting the leadership, but the real pain will be felt by people that you have shown no regard for by the way you have handled your opinions. Please let me explain:
You speak of this web site as “revealing the truth about City Bible Church.” Well, an important thing about truth is getting your facts straight. Obviously you are hyper sensitive to the prospect of tithing and giving. So much so, that the very words become an opportunity to gain inebriation rather than learning. However, you obviously have nothing left to learn, which is evident by your ability to take words, statements and scriptures out of context in order to prove your shallow minded points. So let’s leave that alone for the moment and actually take some time to explore the facts.
Here are the types of people and ministries that your “truthful” revelations will actually hurt:
Let’s begin by addressing your comments about how City Business Church ignores the poor in order to line the pockets of the leadership. Let’s begin with the food house ministry. Due to the tireless efforts of the team that gathers and organizes this ministry, more food is distributed to the poor and needy on a monthly basis than the Portland organization, Meals on Wheels, does in an entire year. This doesn’t even include the thousands of dollars that are put towards rent, mortgage and utility payments for those who are in financial crisis. Nor does it include the extra wave of food distribution during the holiday season. 500 boxes were distributed on Thanksgiving alone. Also, over 500 families, who otherwise wouldn’t, will receive gifts for Christmas. Even as I write, dozens of volunteers are wrapping those gifts to make it as special as possible for the children involved. I’m sure that your comments will make them feel all warm and cozy about their efforts.
Your work on the Double Elder article was amazing. Actually, what’s so amazing is that you have no clue what you’re talking about. Yes, there is $2.7 remaining on the East campus and yes there is now $4.5 owing on the West campus. However, in your eagerness to paint a picture of deception, you missed the part where the West campus congregation actually covers the cost for the West campus. That’s right, other than the original start-up funds, it’s actually self-sustaining without subsidy from the East. Meanwhile, the overall budget has remained on task. This person you refer to as “Double Elder” and “spy” should actually be commended for his dedication towards being a good steward over that which the church body has charged him with. Again, I’m sure that your kind words have all but made up for his sleepless nights, time away from his family and the pressure to be accountable for every penny. This also makes me wonder how his family would feel if they were to read your words. Hmmm, very considerate of you.
You like to crunch numbers on the conferences to paint a picture of lucrative and shady business schemes. Does it matter to you that much of the income is used to send well over 150 young people to summer camp every year? Probably not, considering that you would only view that as hype that will vanish after two weeks.
Take into consideration the hundreds of small group leaders that continually open their homes to meet, strengthen and build relationships. They do this because they believe that everyone should have people in their lives for the good times and the bad. They believe that no one should be alone. Does it matter to you that your words will hurt them?
How about your pastor? Does your web site have his best interest at heart? Is this the type of effort that he would endorse and consider being a worthy investment of your time and energy? Would it be possible that he would feel it doesn’t represent him or the spirit in which he would lead the church? Is he a man who would value his fellow laborers? Or would he sit by and watch as people in his congregation attack other parts of the body, instead of working out their differences peacefully, biblically and yes - respectfully? Have you considered this?
You mention how Pastor Jack Louman was actually helpful to you during a difficult time of bitterness and frustration in your life. Well I’m sure that he feels your appreciation when you trash everything and everyone that he has poured his life into.
The point is that you are so busy looking for flaws, deception and acts of malicious intent that you have no eye to see the good. Even if I were to come to Pastor Frank Damazio’s defense, which he doesn’t need, it would be wasted because you have already made up your mind. So much so that you are able to callously lie about the words, intent and spirit in which he preaches and teaches. I.e. Damazio 3:16.
Here’s one last thought. Considering you have shown such tremendous concern for the poor and needy, why not publish how the rest of us can get involved with your humanitarian effort. However, in the chance that this doesn’t exist, how about if you cut the hypocrisy and help distribute some food boxes. After all, the work is plenty but the laborers are few. It would seem, however, that the critics are not. Besides, the being that you affectionately refer to as “Satan Claus” must be laughing all the way to the bank. Considering you have taken his place and are doing his job as the accuser of the brethren. With Christians like you, who needs him?
Wow! It’s amazing how the power of technology now enables a protester to state their complaints from the comfort of their own home in complete anonymity. This way the voice of slander and character assassination never needs to show it’s cowardly face.
No matter what organization a leader may associate with, he will always expect a certain amount of criticism. However, you Morton Boys, and Gal, have taken criticism to a whole new level. You need to understand, the nature in which these pages are being written might sting the leadership, but the real pain will be felt by people that you have shown no regard for by the way you have handled your opinions. Please let me explain:
You speak of this web site as “revealing the truth about City Bible Church.” Well, an important thing about truth is getting your facts straight. Obviously you are hyper sensitive to the prospect of tithing and giving. So much so, that the very words become an opportunity to gain inebriation rather than learning. However, you obviously have nothing left to learn, which is evident by your ability to take words, statements and scriptures out of context in order to prove your shallow minded points. So let’s leave that alone for the moment and actually take some time to explore the facts.
Here are the types of people and ministries that your “truthful” revelations will actually hurt:
Let’s begin by addressing your comments about how City Business Church ignores the poor in order to line the pockets of the leadership. Let’s begin with the food house ministry. Due to the tireless efforts of the team that gathers and organizes this ministry, more food is distributed to the poor and needy on a monthly basis than the Portland organization, Meals on Wheels, does in an entire year. This doesn’t even include the thousands of dollars that are put towards rent, mortgage and utility payments for those who are in financial crisis. Nor does it include the extra wave of food distribution during the holiday season. 500 boxes were distributed on Thanksgiving alone. Also, over 500 families, who otherwise wouldn’t, will receive gifts for Christmas. Even as I write, dozens of volunteers are wrapping those gifts to make it as special as possible for the children involved. I’m sure that your comments will make them feel all warm and cozy about their efforts.
Your work on the Double Elder article was amazing. Actually, what’s so amazing is that you have no clue what you’re talking about. Yes, there is $2.7 remaining on the East campus and yes there is now $4.5 owing on the West campus. However, in your eagerness to paint a picture of deception, you missed the part where the West campus congregation actually covers the cost for the West campus. That’s right, other than the original start-up funds, it’s actually self-sustaining without subsidy from the East. Meanwhile, the overall budget has remained on task. This person you refer to as “Double Elder” and “spy” should actually be commended for his dedication towards being a good steward over that which the church body has charged him with. Again, I’m sure that your kind words have all but made up for his sleepless nights, time away from his family and the pressure to be accountable for every penny. This also makes me wonder how his family would feel if they were to read your words. Hmmm, very considerate of you.
You like to crunch numbers on the conferences to paint a picture of lucrative and shady business schemes. Does it matter to you that much of the income is used to send well over 150 young people to summer camp every year? Probably not, considering that you would only view that as hype that will vanish after two weeks.
Take into consideration the hundreds of small group leaders that continually open their homes to meet, strengthen and build relationships. They do this because they believe that everyone should have people in their lives for the good times and the bad. They believe that no one should be alone. Does it matter to you that your words will hurt them?
How about your pastor? Does your web site have his best interest at heart? Is this the type of effort that he would endorse and consider being a worthy investment of your time and energy? Would it be possible that he would feel it doesn’t represent him or the spirit in which he would lead the church? Is he a man who would value his fellow laborers? Or would he sit by and watch as people in his congregation attack other parts of the body, instead of working out their differences peacefully, biblically and yes - respectfully? Have you considered this?
You mention how Pastor Jack Louman was actually helpful to you during a difficult time of bitterness and frustration in your life. Well I’m sure that he feels your appreciation when you trash everything and everyone that he has poured his life into.
The point is that you are so busy looking for flaws, deception and acts of malicious intent that you have no eye to see the good. Even if I were to come to Pastor Frank Damazio’s defense, which he doesn’t need, it would be wasted because you have already made up your mind. So much so that you are able to callously lie about the words, intent and spirit in which he preaches and teaches. I.e. Damazio 3:16.
Here’s one last thought. Considering you have shown such tremendous concern for the poor and needy, why not publish how the rest of us can get involved with your humanitarian effort. However, in the chance that this doesn’t exist, how about if you cut the hypocrisy and help distribute some food boxes. After all, the work is plenty but the laborers are few. It would seem, however, that the critics are not. Besides, the being that you affectionately refer to as “Satan Claus” must be laughing all the way to the bank. Considering you have taken his place and are doing his job as the accuser of the brethren. With Christians like you, who needs him?
Wow! It’s amazing how the power of technology now enables a protester to state their complaints from the comfort of their own home in complete anonymity. This way the voice of slander and character assassination never needs to show it’s cowardly face.
No matter what organization a leader may associate with, he will always expect a certain amount of criticism. However, you Morton Boys, and Gal, have taken criticism to a whole new level. You need to understand, the nature in which these pages are being written might sting the leadership, but the real pain will be felt by people that you have shown no regard for by the way you have handled your opinions. Please let me explain:
You speak of this web site as “revealing the truth about City Bible Church.” Well, an important thing about truth is getting your facts straight. Obviously you are hyper sensitive to the prospect of tithing and giving. So much so, that the very words become an opportunity to gain inebriation rather than learning. However, you obviously have nothing left to learn, which is evident by your ability to take words, statements and scriptures out of context in order to prove your shallow minded points. So let’s leave that alone for the moment and actually take some time to explore the facts.
Here are the types of people and ministries that your “truthful” revelations will actually hurt:
Let’s begin by addressing your comments about how City Business Church ignores the poor in order to line the pockets of the leadership. Let’s begin with the food house ministry. Due to the tireless efforts of the team that gathers and organizes this ministry, more food is distributed to the poor and needy on a monthly basis than the Portland organization, Meals on Wheels, does in an entire year. This doesn’t even include the thousands of dollars that are put towards rent, mortgage and utility payments for those who are in financial crisis. Nor does it include the extra wave of food distribution during the holiday season. 500 boxes were distributed on Thanksgiving alone. Also, over 500 families, who otherwise wouldn’t, will receive gifts for Christmas. Even as I write, dozens of volunteers are wrapping those gifts to make it as special as possible for the children involved. I’m sure that your comments will make them feel all warm and cozy about their efforts.
Your work on the Double Elder article was amazing. Actually, what’s so amazing is that you have no clue what you’re talking about. Yes, there is $2.7 remaining on the East campus and yes there is now $4.5 owing on the West campus. However, in your eagerness to paint a picture of deception, you missed the part where the West campus congregation actually covers the cost for the West campus. That’s right, other than the original start-up funds, it’s actually self-sustaining without subsidy from the East. Meanwhile, the overall budget has remained on task. This person you refer to as “Double Elder” and “spy” should actually be commended for his dedication towards being a good steward over that which the church body has charged him with. Again, I’m sure that your kind words have all but made up for his sleepless nights, time away from his family and the pressure to be accountable for every penny. This also makes me wonder how his family would feel if they were to read your words. Hmmm, very considerate of you.
You like to crunch numbers on the conferences to paint a picture of lucrative and shady business schemes. Does it matter to you that much of the income is used to send well over 150 young people to summer camp every year? Probably not, considering that you would only view that as hype that will vanish after two weeks.
Take into consideration the hundreds of small group leaders that continually open their homes to meet, strengthen and build relationships. They do this because they believe that everyone should have people in their lives for the good times and the bad. They believe that no one should be alone. Does it matter to you that your words will hurt them?
How about your pastor? Does your web site have his best interest at heart? Is this the type of effort that he would endorse and consider being a worthy investment of your time and energy? Would it be possible that he would feel it doesn’t represent him or the spirit in which he would lead the church? Is he a man who would value his fellow laborers? Or would he sit by and watch as people in his congregation attack other parts of the body, instead of working out their differences peacefully, biblically and yes - respectfully? Have you considered this?
You mention how Pastor Jack Louman was actually helpful to you during a difficult time of bitterness and frustration in your life. Well I’m sure that he feels your appreciation when you trash everything and everyone that he has poured his life into.
The point is that you are so busy looking for flaws, deception and acts of malicious intent that you have no eye to see the good. Even if I were to come to Pastor Frank Damazio’s defense, which he doesn’t need, it would be wasted because you have already made up your mind. So much so that you are able to callously lie about the words, intent and spirit in which he preaches and teaches. I.e. Damazio 3:16.
Here’s one last thought. Considering you have shown such tremendous concern for the poor and needy, why not publish how the rest of us can get involved with your humanitarian effort. However, in the chance that this doesn’t exist, how about if you cut the hypocrisy and help distribute some food boxes. After all, the work is plenty but the laborers are few. It would seem, however, that the critics are not. Besides, the being that you affectionately refer to as “Satan Claus” must be laughing all the way to the bank. Considering you have taken his place and are doing his job as the accuser of the brethren. With Christians like you, who needs him?
Wow! It’s amazing how the power of technology now enables a protester to state their complaints from the comfort of their own home in complete anonymity. This way the voice of slander and character assassination never needs to show it’s cowardly face.
No matter what organization a leader may associate with, he will always expect a certain amount of criticism. However, you Morton Boys, and G