City Bible Talking Points
Posted on February 1st, 2006 by catalyst into the City Boobie Church category
The following testimony is from a good friend of mine. We met during a CBC wedding the summer the first Survivor aired. I had been watching the show religiously, but did not know anyone else as obsessed as me. We literally spent two hours going over every detail of the show and pleading with God not to let that fat naked Richard Hatch win it all. He did.
This is all to say, I am happy for him (my friend, not Richard Hatch). But I worry. If City Bible had talking points, this is how they would sound.
I too am a productive and very satisfied CBC member. Not just someone who attends but an actual tithing member. Yes, a tithing member. I give my money to city business church. Since I started tithing on a regular basis, after I finished the partnership class, I have literally doubled my income from $34,000 to over $60,000 a year. Sure I was making enough to live on, but God had better in mind for me. I tithe not because the church tells me too but because my Bible tell me so. It says give my first 10%.
I went from knowing I am saved and that God had his hand in my life to seeing God actively move in my life on a daily basis. My wife and I fell in love again, after 6 years of marriage. My family members got saved. My income increased and most importantly I knew for the first time an invisible God.
Yes, CBC gives more time than the average church to the offering, but it takes millions to move the kind of mountains we move. This church supports thousands of different programs and you cannot do that with out money. We feed over 2 hundred family’s every month who do not have enough money after rent to buy food, but they make too much money for food stamps.
We give cars free and clear to single mothers who otherwise would not have transportation to get their children to the Doctor’s office. We plant and support churches in over 30 nations and in hundreds of different languages.
We are one church that is really touching the nations, And guess what people It takes money. If Mother Teresa was asking for free medical supplies would you judge her for it and call her selfish. No I don’t think you would.
I am one of those few who are not hear to judge anyone I just want to report my good experience with City Bible Church. It is my home and I am so blessed to watch my kids grow up in this house of God.
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February 1st, 2006 at 11:43 am
Survivor said:
“Yes, CBC gives more time than the average church to the offering, but it takes millions to move the kind of mountains we move.”
Unfortunately, that doesn’t leave a lot of room for faith.
I’m wondering if we just uncovered another scripture from the book of Damzio:
Faith can move mountains… if it’s backed by lots and lots of money. - Damazio 4:20
February 1st, 2006 at 12:08 pm
I once heard Eric Knox say in a sermon that “vision” is spelled M-O-N-E-Y. I don’t know what to take from this but it is either he is right, wrong or it is another example of taking a someone says and casting it in a poor light. Is that what you do?
February 1st, 2006 at 12:26 pm
I’d consider it wrong because I’ve heard the same excuses from management at every company I’ve worked for. They want their workers to work harder, longer, and cheaper to help the generous company donate products to schools and achieve their other high-minded goals…oh and boost the company’s bottom line.
Now, if a church has to resort to the same high-pressure tactics to extract money and work from it’s members, what is that saying about the faith of the leadership for God to provide for the church? Is God only pledging to cover 70% of next year’s budget and leaving the rest for the eldership to extract from the pulpit? It’s hard to buy the “prosperity through faith and generous giving” message when the guys preaching it don’t believe in it enough to practice what they’re preaching.
February 1st, 2006 at 2:00 pm
Spelling vision m-o-n-e-y sounds like something Eric Knox would say. However, he would also say (and does) that while the word “tithe” means 10%, the Israelites in the OT did NOT tithe a mere 10% of their income; they tithed 10% annually on three different incomes/crops and another 10% every 3rd year on another income. So, their annual “tithe” was 33%. I’ve heard Eric say that he welcomes anyone who wishes to give 33% of their income to the church, but that is not his expectation nor his “theology” of tithing; it is to give according to your ability, proportionate giving. In the NT, we are not under the ceremonial law of the OT. Christ fulfilled it on the cross. God cares about our hearts and he wants us to give with cheerful hearts according to how He directs us.
The brag-list shared by the current Survivor-CBC guy is nice, but I would bet large sums of money that the % of CBC’s budget that goes towards those kind of services is exceptionally small (i.e., certainly under 10%). I can definitively say that I am fully relieved that not one cent of my money is used by that church any longer to promote its warped, destructive “brand” of Christianity.
February 1st, 2006 at 2:14 pm
Anon, I think Mr. Knox (or perhaps yourself) should go back to school for remedial math. If I have 3 different incomes, and I tithe 10% on each, then my gross tithe is still 10%. Using your “tithing math”, if I had ten different incomes, and tithed 10% from each, I would be tithing 100%. Man, maybe I should get 10 part time jobs so that I can tithe 100% and have God REALLY bless me! Whoohoo!
February 1st, 2006 at 3:10 pm
FICM…you beat me to the punch. Anon’s math made no since at all.
On another note, I like the new site Catalyst. Two things to point out though. First one is if you go to http://www.citybusinesschurch.org and click on the link that says “The Blog” it takes you to the old site. Secondly, I’d be careful using CBC’s logo. I’m pretty sure they could (and probably would) come after you for that.
Just my .02.
February 1st, 2006 at 4:02 pm
uninformed pope or reformed pope i mean
What does it mean to you when someone says it takes faith to move mountains
February 1st, 2006 at 4:34 pm
For those of you who dont know Christ ,at least you have an excuse in not understanding the whole tithing thing.But the bloggers like John Paul ,you guys should at least know better.Its one thing if you want to say that you understand that we all need to tithe but that you dont want to .Its another thing to argue thats its not something pastors and churches should be preaching . Its just one of of the many principles taught in the bible. Satan is winning the battle in regards to the control that money has on us.This blog is a perfect example of that and so churches need to step it up a notch to win back our hearts from the bondage of money.
“For where your treasure is,there your heart will be also”
Mathew 6:21
”You cannot serve both God and money”
Mathew 6:24
My treasure is in Christ, not money
WWJD
February 1st, 2006 at 5:07 pm
Hey WWJD -
Half the time I have no idea what Jesus would do, but I know He wouldn’t hide behind “anonymous”.
February 1st, 2006 at 5:20 pm
Thank you for those scriptures WWJD.
Do you have any that mention tithing? I read those scriptures and think exactly, that’s what I’ve been saying.
Just because you don’t give 10% to church doesn’t mean you serve money.
Why does CBC spend so much time promising you a promotion, new job, better life…if you tithe (only if you tithe)? Shouldn’t you just give to give?
February 1st, 2006 at 5:32 pm
Sounds like WWJD needs to be getting paid for all this preaching.
I have 33% of a days wages here if ya wanna come get it.
P.S. I just moved a mountain… had to flush it down after awhile though.
Thanks Morton Spawn for a lovely new site.
February 1st, 2006 at 5:34 pm
I go to a great church in Vancouver now that is not part of the MFI circle. The pastor there recently taught on tithing. It was the best message on the subject I had ever heard. He did promote and believe in the 10% message (which I happen to think is Biblical.)
But it was clear from the service and his words that it was not about HIM, HIS CHURCH, or HIS programs. Several times during the service he said that members should feel free to give their tithes to other churches or other programs if they wanted because our church is doing fine and it’s not about that.
It’s about THE LOST. And then they showed the clip from Shindler’s List at the end where the workers gave a ring to the man that saved their lives. He started crying and said, But this could have saved 5? more. My car, why did I keep my car, it could have saved another 3 . . ..
When the clip was over, the house lights went up, and around the sanctuary were people holding large banners with the faces of those who had been baptized this year. We were asked to go and write the names of people we were praying for on scrolls.
Schindler’s list closes with a list of all of the people saved. OUr service closed with scrolls coming down on the stage of all the people saved at our church in the past year.
Point being, this is a church that gets it. And what it’s about.
The last church I was at (MFI) would give a money exhortation (at least 20 minutes) EVERY sunday right before offering. Our money was going to keep the lights on at the church. I never understood why we didn’t just use less lights and use the money for IMPORTANT things.
Glad to now be in a place that gets it.
KM
February 1st, 2006 at 5:39 pm
And to Hannah,
Yes, you know me. We met at BT, but also have another place in common. (You were the only blond if that helps.) But I’d appreciate it if you didn’t mention the place. You could email me at firstnameslastname@aol.com if you wanted to discuss. Meaning my first name, s, my last name, etc.
KM
February 1st, 2006 at 5:56 pm
Maybe it is not cbc and tithe that helped you, but laying down the crack pipe and going to rehab.
February 1st, 2006 at 6:00 pm
Cat,
I wouldn’t worry about CBC coming after you for using their logo, I would worry about NBC.
February 1st, 2006 at 6:04 pm
KariMichelle
That sounds awsome . It doesnt matter how a church preaches it.If it means showing a movie clip or preaching on lights or whatever. Its the pastors job to preach and our job to do it.I gaurantee its all the same to God.He is looking at our hearts ,not how good or bad the sermon was.
jp
To your first question:
ge 14:20
ge28:22
lev 27:30
dt 12:17
dt 26:12
1 ch 6:54
2 ch 31:5
pr 3:9-10
mal 3:9-10
2 co 9:7
heb 7:1
to name a few
Im not saying that if you dont give 10% that means you serve money .We as Christ followers need to have the heart to give without hesitation just like the early disciples. Paul gave up his money and time for the the start of the church.He would give the shirt off his back and I think if he were here right now and read some of these comments about tithing, he would probably ask you to give up your house and car just to see how you would respond and my guess is it would be with hesitation if at all.You would say something like “well I give to charity” or ” well i have bills ” or I have faith to move mountains but not to give to the church so that they can move the mountain. Whet Mthew 6:21 is saying is that if your treasure is in Christ and His bride(the church) and a pastor asks for tithe,you will give it without question.
As far as the church saying that tithing promotes new jobs or promotions or whatever , tithing means that God is in control of your finances.Not tithing means that you are in control.And in this day and age I would rather have Him in control then me
WWJD
February 1st, 2006 at 6:43 pm
WWJD,
Trusting that God will provide money to run your church means God is in control. Spending excessive amounts of time guilting people into giving more money means you’re in control. In this day and age I’d rather have Him in control than self-serving “leaders”.
February 1st, 2006 at 7:53 pm
WWJD,
You missed my entire point. If a preacher is preaching excessively on tithing:
1) He is NOT trusting God to meet his church’s needs
2) He is beating the wrong sheep–I was a tither at my old church, yet I and others would be the ones suffering from the verbal abuse every week while the non-tithers didn’t budge
3) He is focused on the wrong thing–Jesus is focused on souls
A preacher has a responsibility to preach Christ and him crucified and the WHOLE counsel of the word of God, not one empahsis to the exclusion of others.
The Bible teaches on Slavery, are preachers required to preach that?
The Bible teaches on rape, what if we had weekly exhortations about that?
And, what about the scripture on giving that says, Give to everyone who asks of you? Do you do that?
Lighten up.
KM
February 1st, 2006 at 7:56 pm
PS. If Jesus asked me to give up my house or car, I would, in an instant. Hell, I gave up more than that to go on the missionfield for 10 years. I gave up everything.
Don’t judge what you don’t know. You don’t know any of the hearts here.
February 1st, 2006 at 8:13 pm
Tithe, Don’t tithe. 10%, 30%. Give because you want to, give because you’re commanded to. God needs your money, God doesn’t need your money. Pay in cash, pay by check, debit, or credit. Give on Sunday, mail it in. Pay for programs, pay for lights. Blah blah blah blah blah. All the quibbling about what this or that scripture means, what God really wants, intends, says, does; it’s starting to come back to me why I dropped out of church so long ago and haven’t looked back.
February 1st, 2006 at 11:29 pm
Fezzik said:
February 1st, 2006 at 6:43 pm
Spending excessive amounts of time guilting people into giving more money means you’re in control.
Let me just point out that its been 6 months since since paster Frank has done any kind of tithing sermon so if thats excessive than so be it.When i defend tithing its not because Frank preaches it all the time (which if he did that would be ok) its because I believe in Christ and by His blood i have been set free.And if all he asks is that i give a little money back that he has already provided for me ,than you bet Im going to do it and gladly. You guys are missing the point. We are all decendents of Abraham and are under the Abrahamic covenant of blessing. Which means ,when we give 10% to the storehouse (or church family) and according to mal 3:10-12 God says to test Him on this and that He will pour out blessings on us. I think we all agree on the principles of tithing,or at least I hope so. The question is ,are we planting in fertile soil as Christ taught us .How do we know if its fertile soil.Is giving to a televangelist fertile soil or a charity.How do we determine if we are planting in good soil.Is it determined by growth which is what happens when something is planted.Or is it by the reaping we get in due season. I know CBC fits at least these criteria and many more .
KariMichell
The Bible teaches on Slavery, are preachers required to preach that?
It doesnt teach us to have slaves (unless your mean to God).Tithing is somehting we are taught to do, like loving,giving and forgiving just to name a few
The Bible teaches on rape, what if we had weekly exhortations about that?
Once again,we are not taught to rape.Thats not a good example
And, what about the scripture on giving that says, Give to everyone who asks of you? Do you do that?
If you mean me personaly than yes.My wife and I have had 2 seperate families live with us within the last 5 months that couldnt afford a place to stay.We fed them and provided financially until they got a place of their own.We housed 10 youth last week for a youth conference that had 3500 young people from all over the world and there is another 4000 coming this weeekend. We currently have 5 married couples who we encourage and mentor.We give a lot to goodwill and the church as far as food and clothes.And we try to volunteer to help with church events whenever possible
WWJD
February 2nd, 2006 at 6:57 am
The Bible teaches on Slavery, are preachers required to preach that?
It doesnt teach us to have slaves (unless your mean to God).Tithing is somehting we are taught to do, like loving,giving and forgiving just to name a few
You haven’t seen this passage then have you?
Leviticus 25:44-46: “Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.” (NIV)
You can even commit adultery with a female slave as long as you sacrifice a ram at the temple. (Leviticus 19:20-22) That is the downfall of using the Old Testament sometimes. There is some really interesting things written in there that only applied to the Israelites of that time. Some would argue the same goes with the concept of tithing.
Let me just point out that its been 6 months since since paster Frank has done any kind of tithing sermon so if thats excessive than so be it.When i defend tithing its not because Frank preaches it all the time (which if he did that would be ok)
Then we’re just going to disagree. I would not tolerate being told to give in faith when my leaders don’t have faith in their congregation to support the church with their offerings. The concept applies to everybody or nobody.
February 2nd, 2006 at 7:03 am
Re: rape, I meant should we have a weekly exhortation not to rape? Point being, a weekly exhortation on any ONE thing is too much emphasis. I am NOT saying CBC does this. It did happen at my MFI church on the counsel of PF (according to my former pastor.)
Give to everyone that asks of you means give to everyone that asks of you, not do good works. I am asking for you to give me some money. Will you do it? Do you give to panhandlers? Do you give to EVERYONE that asks of you?
KM
February 2nd, 2006 at 3:18 pm
WWJD,
Do you drive a car? Jesus didn’t drive a car, and I sort of doubt he would today. Do you own a house? Better yet, do you tend to sleep in the same place every night? Jesus didn’t. Do you have a wife and kids? Jesus didn’t…and Paul advised against it. Don’t even get me started about your statement with regard to slavery (”mean to God”….what does that even mean?). Enough is enough…I’m saying this for your sake: you’re making yourself seem inarticulate and uninformed by the inconsistency of what you’re saying. If you’re going to call yourself a fundamentalist, born-again Christian, you have to play by your own rules….and I’m willing to wager that you’re not.
February 3rd, 2006 at 1:22 pm
asdf
February 3rd, 2006 at 1:43 pm
The point of tithing should not be about weather or not we are supposed to tithe. Deep down on a spiritual level we all know the answer to that. The botton line is what are your convictions? If you feel convicted to give than you should give. If you feel convicted on somthing you said then you should ask for forgiveness. If you feel convicted about tithing than you should tithe. If you do not feel convicted about it then why waste so much time defending yourself as to why you choose not to tithe? I felt convicted about it and that is why I began to tithe, For me it was about not about 10% or who was telling me I should be doing it. In fact no one ever said a word to me when I was not tithing, but deep down I felt as though I should be and so I began.
To Anonymous, on 2/1 My change was not about laying down the crack pipe as you so eloquently put it, I had already done that a couple years before. I do believe that I was blessed by God for my decision to tithe, but hey that is just me. I did not tithe becuase I was told to during sunday service I felt it in my heart as RP said. This is my church and I need to be supporting it. I liked what John Paul said there becuase he is dead on. If you attend a church on a regular basis that you call a home church, than I feel that God would want us to give to that church. 10%, 30% or whatever. I made a choice and talked to my wife that I was not going to get hung up on how much I gave because I dont think god wants us to stress about how much we give. That would defeat the purpose. I give according to what I can afford to give but I do it out of each paycheck. some times I have givin more and many times I have given less than 10%, but again we are the only ones who seem to be stuck on a number. Give from your heart what you feel led to give to your home church and god will always bless you. Some of you seem to have quite that chip on your shoulders. I would be very curious to know who Jimminy Cricket is, He seems to be very insecure and he hides behind what he thinks is inteligence. Jimminy we all see past it. You are not confortable in your own skin so you seem to hate it when someone comes along who is such as WWJD. That is why you try so hard to insult him on any level. You try to bring people down to where you are, This is no different than a high school bully. In fact your probabley a retired ccs high school bully! Am I right? Any how reveal who you are you name calling ninny.
Brandon Opps I mean Master Story Teller
February 3rd, 2006 at 3:38 pm
Story Teller,
Way off on the whole Jimminy Cricket thing. Not a bully, not a man, but maybe a bully none the less, I’ll let Cricket respond for that.
As far as “tithing” goes I’m glad to hear that you aren’t getting caught up in percentages but according to what PF has said in the past, God couldn’t be responsible for the blessings that you have received. According to him, if you haven’t given 10% on everything everytime, then you put a cap on God and he simple can’t bless you. In fact he’s going to curse you (I’d watch out for flying poo).
Does it not bother you that Frank would say something so stupid?
What causes you to go back to a church where they are misleading you this way?
Is it possible that the conviction you felt was really man made guilt?
It is good to hear that you are doing much better. I doesn’t really matter where you go to church; if you can stand listening to them each week, then more power to you. When I was there it used to drive me crazy.
February 4th, 2006 at 1:23 am
Let me begin by saying that this is an impressive site. Kudos Justin and JP, nice work. I just wanted to take this opprotunity to share a few of my thoughts on the CBC “debate” or whatever you want to call it. I am a current CBC member and feel very blessed to have such an awesome home church. I have been at CBC for a number of years and also am a fellow alumni of TCHS.
I have spent about the last hour reading over the comments on this site and a common thought among many of you seems to be that if you are around CBC for too long you become brainwashed into believing whatever you are told and never trying to figure things out for yourself. I would say that I disagree with this theory. I believe that God appoints certain people to lead His church. Their job is to “lead” us and “guide” us according to God’s word. It’s not to say that we blindly follow. We all have the ability to seek God and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal to us the truth. These people that God appoints are still just that…people. They are human in every way and are by no means perfect. They make mistakes just like anyone else.
I have personally experienced this at CBC. I had a situation come up several years ago that many of the leaders and elders were involved in. It was a very personal and emotional situation and I felt like there were several mistakes made by the those involved in the way it was handeled. But I realized soon after it was over that it was a learning experience for everyone involved. I know that it would not be handeled in the exact same way today. The point is that human error is not always completely avoidable.
Rick Warren is the author of The Purpose Driven Life. (If any of you haven’t read this book yet you should. It is very simple, yet profoundly impacting.) In his book he says, “We protect the fellowship when we honor those who serve us by leading.” Being the leader (or servent) of such a massive congregation as CBC is a huge responsibility. And Pastor Frank lives his life under a giant magnifying glass. But he is a very humble man and he handles what must be an incredible amount of pressure with grace.
There is an entire chapter in the Purpose Driven Life called Protecting the Church. In it Warren writes, “There are no perfect leaders, but God gives leaders the responsibility and the authority to maintain the unity of the church.” And since we are called to honor those appointed by God to lead us, it becomes our responsibility to protect and promote unity among God’s people. (Romans 14)
I think that most, if not all, of the people that frequent this site love the Lord and we all just want the truth. I am not here to judge anyone or to be confrontational. I only want to share my heart and offer a different perspective. Food for thought if you will.
The Bible says that you will know them by their fruit. I believe City Bible to be a fruitfull church. Not only because it is constantly growing and expanding, finding new ways to reach people and minister to their needs, or because they are making a major impact on this city and many others around the world. But because they help to change lives from the inside out. People grow in their walks with Christ at CBC. Not to say that you can’t grow anywhere else because of course you can. And not to say that everyone who attends CBC will grow, as it first has to be a desire. But if that is all that really matters… if that is what makes a church successfull, their ability to bring people to Christ and help them to grow up spiritually so that they too can help bring people to Christ, then CBC is a success.
Anyway, I think this site definatly provokes thought and forces people to really think for themselves and take a stand for what they believe. I agree with JP, it doesn’t really matter where you go to church. As long as everyone is happy and growing in their walks with the Lord then to each his own. Thanks for hearing me out. God Bless!
February 4th, 2006 at 8:00 am
Good stuff
WWJD
February 4th, 2006 at 8:03 am
Way to go advocate I could not have said it any more better myself. Haha ah. Yeah that was not as funny as it sounded in my head. But still Kudos, that is awesome food for thought.
February 4th, 2006 at 2:19 pm
There is a lot of growth in many things that are not fruitful. I don’t think growth is an accurate way to judge fruitfulness.
People are attracted to big new and fancy things. CBC is a big, new, fancy church with lots of shiny attractive programs. They have an amazing marketing department. I am always impressed by what I see on their website, but all that doesn’t make them fruitful.
February 5th, 2006 at 7:47 am
Brandon:
So, you say I’m a bully. How? Because I point out when people’s behavior doesn’t make sense? Or because I simply don’t agree with you and use solid discourse to back myself up? That’s not bullying in my book, but you have the freedom to define language for yourselves. Just don’t expect me to feel too bad about it. I’m speaking in an open forum, I’m not calling names, and I never intend for anything I say to be taken for anything more than my word and opinion on the subject. Intelligence is as intelligence does, and insecurity is as insecurity does. I don’t tell WWJD to hush for my own sake. I have a sibling with echolalia (a symptom associated with autism that causes a person to repeat words or phrases over and over again without any meaning behind it)…I know all about listening to mindless chatter, and I hardly notice it anymore. I tell him (I’m assuming he’s a him) to hush because he’s making himself appear foolish, and I think I’d want to know if someone thought I was presenting myself that way. That’s what I’ve consistently said, and in my opinion, that is neither indicative of insecurity on my part, nor does it make me a bully.
If my intelligence bothers you, that sounds like a personal problem to me (and, if I may be so bold, perhaps you’re projecting on this whole insecurity issue). I’m only using what I know and what is at my fingertips to use…I don’t ever recall making a public statement about my own assessment of my intelligence. If you’re telling me that you think I speak intelligently, I’ll accept your compliment (however backhanded) and move on with my day. I never spent a full school day at CCS….and I definitely wasn’t equipped to bully anyone at that time in my life. Email me (you can follow my name link to my personal blog profile and from there to my email address) if you would like to talk further.
RP:
Yes, thank you, I appreciate your letting me speak for myself. I am a bit concerned about your bully commentary, however…. If bullying is perceived, please know that it’s certainly not intended.
I enjoyed your commentary on fruit. As far as fruit goes, I think an interesting point to ponder is this: this blog and the dissatisfaction that inspired it also came out of experiences and interactions at CBC….therefore, we, too, are a part of their fruit. Their slick programs and website success stories are what they identify with in terms of fruit, but we, too, have fallen from that tree. The parts of my life that were filled with their philosophy have caused me a lot of trouble….though I’ve definitely had the opportunity to use what I’ve learned there at critical points in my life, and I wouldn’t have wanted to face those critical points without the skills CBC gave me. However, the fact remains that if we’re talking about fruit, both we and they have to count us as a part of that.