First Response
Posted on February 2nd, 2006 by Reformed Pope into the Uncategorized, Tithe, Scriptures categoryWWJD, Survivor, Chocolate Thunder, et al:
It seems like we go through this every few months, but since you’re all new to the blogging ways of the Morton family I’ll be happy to indulge…
I would rather get the families together to discuss this, it takes a lot less time that way, but regardless, here we go.
My first response will be to address the scriptures listed by WWJD under CBC Talking Points. I will hopefully be able to move on to a more humorous post in the near future, but for now we begin with:
GEN 14:18-20
18 Then Melchizedek, king of Salem, brought out bread and wine; he was a priest to God Most High. 19 He blessed him and said:
Abram is blessed by God Most High,
Creator of heaven and earth, 20 and give praise to God Most High
who has handed over your enemies to you.And Abram gave him a tenth of everything
Abram gave Melchizedek a tenth of everything. This was not commanded by God or anyone. If you research this scripture in any study Bible you will likely find that what Abram did was a custom not a command.
“If God will be with me and protect me on this journey and give me food and clothing, 21 and if he will bring me back safely to my father, then I will make the LORD my God. 22 This memorial pillar will become a place for worshiping God, and I will give God a tenth of everything he gives me.”
Again not a command from God, but a decision by Jacob… his decision is even conditional: “IF God will be with me…”
LEV 27:30
30 ”A tenth of the produce of the land, whether grain or fruit, belongs to the LORD and must be set apart to him as holy.
This is the best sounding scripture so far, unfortunately if you read the whole book of Leviticus you find that Christians ignore 90% of the laws it sets forth.
When was the last time CBC stoned someone for Blasphemy? Lev 24:16 “Anyone who blasphemes the LORD’s name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD’s name will surely die.” How many Christians agree with the death penalty? Lev 24:17 ”Anyone who takes another person’s life must be put to death.”
There are many examples like this throughout the book. Read it.
DT 12:17
17 ”But your offerings must not be eaten at home – neither the tithe of your grain and new wine and olive oil, nor the firstborn of your flocks and herds, nor an offering to fulfill a vow, nor your freewill offerings, nor your special gifts.
Back up 2 verses and see DT 12:15-16. 15 ”But you may butcher animals for meat in any town, wherever you want, just as you do now with gazelle and deer. You may eat as many animals as the LORD your God gives you. All of you, whether ceremonially clean or unclean, may eat that meat. 16 The only restriction is that you are not to eat the blood. You must pour it out on the ground like water.
I like my meat rare, am I going to hell for that?
DT 26:12
12 “Every third year you must offer a special tithe of your crops. You must give these tithes to the Levites, foreigners, orphans, and widows so that they will have enough to eat in your towns.
Should we only tithe every third year? Should we always tithe but give a special tithe every third year? Throw this scripture out of your study, it does more harm than good.
1 CH 6:45
54 This is a record of the towns and territory assigned by means of sacred lots to the descendants of Aaron who were from the clan of Kohath
?
2 CH 31:5
5 The people responded immediately and generously with the first of their crops and grain, new wine, olive oil, honey, and all the produce of their fields. They brought a tithe of all they owned
This is a great ideal. If people acted this way today, then there would be no need for this argument. I don’t, however, think the command of that time still stands for us today. You should read further and see the strict way they divided up all the tithe’s brought forth. I know churches don’t follow that formula anymore.
PR 3:9-10
9 Honor the LORD with your wealth and with the best part of everything your land produces. 10 Then he will fill your barns with grain, and your vats will overflow with the finest wine.
“Honor the LORD with your wealth…” Is there only one way to do this? By giving 10% of everything you own to God? Is it possible that giving to the poor would also be Honoring the LORD? Would he bless you for that? Even if you weren’t a tither?
Mal 3:9-10
9 You are under a curse, for your whole nation has been cheating me. 10 Bring all the tithes into the storehouse so there will be enough food in my Temple. If you do,” says the LORD Almighty, “I will open the windows of heaven for you. I will pour out a blessing so great you won’t have enough room to take it in! Try it! Let me prove it to you!
You are under a curse, for your whole nation has been cheating me. Bring all the tithes into the storehouse so there will be enough food in my Temple. If you do,” says the LORD Almighty, “I will open the windows of heaven for you. I will pour out a blessing so great you won’t have enough room to take it in! Try it! Let me prove it to you!
This is my favorite. Why is it that I can turn on TBN at any time and here this scripture, but no one ever mentions what it says in Mal 2:2-3 “Honor my name,” says the LORD Almighty, “or I will bring a terrible curse against you… 3 I will rebuke your descendants and splatter your faces with the dung of your festival sacrifices, and I will add you to the dung heap. Why is it that preachers teach so strongly that God will curse you for not tithing, but fail to mention that he will also smear your face with Poo?
Of course outside of this verse I haven’t ever heard of God flinging POO at anyone, so maybe he hasn’t cursed anyone for failing to get their tithe in on time.
2 Cor 9:7
7 You must each make up your own mind as to how much you should give. Don’t give reluctantly or in response to pressure. For God loves the person who gives cheerfully.
Thank you. This is exactly right. This is what it is all about. It doesn’t help the “tither’s” case, but it is very clear. “You must each make up your own mind as to how much you should give.” It doesn’t say give 10% or I will curse you. It doesn’t say give 10% and I will bless you, it says “make up your own mind” and “give cheerfully”. It then goes on to say how he will provide for you. That’s why it works for CBC. It’s the principle of sowing and reaping. God will take care of his children, especially when they are generous. What you must remember is that Jesus died on the cross to take the Curse away. We don’t have to follow the letter of the law anymore. Through his grace we are saved.
Heb 7:1
1 This Melchizedek was king of the city of Salem and also a priest of God Most High. When Abraham was returning home after winning a great battle against many kings, Melchizedek met him and blessed him.
See my notes on GEN 14:18-20.
OK, My point is this: Many people want to apply certain parts of certain scriptures to our lives today, but they don’t want to apply them all.
I know what you are going to say next because I’ve had this conversation with Marc Estes myself. “Blah, blah, blah, You apply the principle not the rule.” Well that sounds nice, but doesn’t really help your cause. The principle is “Give and you shall receive”, the rule is “Give 10% or get cursed.” Nice try Marc, but I ain’t yo bitch.
Any thoughts?
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February 2nd, 2006 at 6:06 pm
Tithe or you’re a piece of crap…
February 2nd, 2006 at 7:42 pm
Come on people; must this subject be beat to death, or in the current case to crap? If you read the bible and espeacily the new testiment you know God’s heart. Did the woman who only gave one penny give 10 percent, no she gave everything, and God blessed her. He knows your heart, are you giving from your heart what you can? Or are you giving because you are told too? God knows and it doesn’t matter whether anyone else does or not. It is only between you and Him no matter what a preacher or anyone else says. If anyone is demanding you give they are at fault and will answer to God when the time comes. If you give whatever you can; to your church, your neighbor, or your country it all counts to God and isn’t He the one we are trying to reach. Anyway, love the new sight and can we move on, this subject is becoming boring. Tithe don’t leave home without it.
February 2nd, 2006 at 7:47 pm
Right on, RP.
I kind of like what the Anon in an earlier post said, even though the math was wrong (which we were all quick to point out instead of responding to the main message). I’m sure that person misunderstood EKnox, and that his math would be correct. We are not expected to follow Old Testament ceremonial laws, many of which RP referenced above. God wants us to give cheerfully and according to his leading. There is no formula. There is no way to buy God’s favor or blessing or increase. The over-emphasis on tithing that many churches practice, including CBC, is indicative of a legalistic, fear-based (fear both from the church, that sense of “if we don’t pressure our members to give, we won’t have enough,” and from the members who truly believe that they can buy spiritual positions or callings or favor from God). Crazy. “Fear not” appears in the Bible (both Old and New Testaments) more than any other phrase. If it were possible to earn or lose salvation or favor by our behavior or lack thereof, then Christ died in vain.
I love the reference to Mal. 2:2-3, that God threatens flinging dung, and eventually tossing into dung, those who fail to honor his name. You’re right, RP, I haven’t seen or heard of God doing that, so specific curses, from God, on those who do not tithe are also unlikely. Jesus wants our hearts, and the way we spend our earthly treasures demonstrates our heart’s priorities. He deals with each of us individually regarding how much he wants us to give and how. The fact that Paul exhorts Christians to make up your own mind as to how much you should give (2 Cor 9:7) means that there is no one-size-fits-all, RULE, that God sets forth for us all. He has personal relationships with us and deals with each of us personally about how much to give. The question isn’t “whether” to give, clearly we are to give, the question is “how much” and that is between each believer and the Lord.
February 2nd, 2006 at 8:13 pm
Good job, RP!
Just a note about Abram’s tithe to Melchizedek. The story in a nutshell: Abram’s nephew Lot lived in Sodom. There was a territorial battle between local kings, and Sodom lost. Their population was hauled off as slaves. Abram found out about it and took 318 of his servants to rescue his nephew. He did rescue Lot and his family as well as all their stuff. Then Abram took 10% of the booty and gave it to Melchizedek. (Heb. 7:4 clarifies.)
Using this story to justify tithing is nuts. Abram’s increase was from the spoils of war, not from his normal work.
For one of the best treatises on tithing, check out this site:
http://www.the-wilderness.info/old.html (part 1 - Old Testament)
http://www.the-wilderness.info/new.html (part 2 - New Testament)
grace, anna
February 2nd, 2006 at 10:15 pm
So, are you ok with tithing in general? Or are you saying that CBC can’t enforce tithing? I believe it is a personal matter between us and God and the Church can’t really enforce any rules or regulations about that.
February 3rd, 2006 at 6:36 am
My former pastor would not let anyone who wasn’t tithing have a position (of any size) in the church and was fond of saying, “You can’t even lead someone to the bathroom if you’re not tithing.”
However, elders were allowed to be immoral, and given enough time they were welcomed back into the leadership. (As long as they were tithing.)
February 3rd, 2006 at 8:25 am
The word tithe means ten percent, so I would have to say that I don’t believe in tithing. However, I do think it is very important to Give.
Your giving may be 10%, 7%, or 23%. I don’t think God is caught up in percentages like much of today’s modern church, but is more concerned with your heart.
The simple truth is that you can’t possibly give enough (sorry BWAP).
February 3rd, 2006 at 8:43 am
Reformed Pope: 10 points WWJD: -10 points
February 3rd, 2006 at 11:10 am
I just finished reading the transcript to Bono’s speech at the National Prayer Breakfast this past week.
http://www.data.org/archives/000774.php
I find it interesting that it takes a self-proclaimed “rock star” to point out to Christians that the purpose of giving and tithing is for performing social justice, and it’s NOT ABOUT US. God is more concerned about the poor, the orphan, the widow, the sick, those in prison, those who have real needs, than he is about what percentage we give or how we might be blessed because of our giving.
Arguing about how much to tithe or when/if you do it is missing the point. God wants us to be the means of changing a world that is in need.
I think the best example of this in the Bible is in Acts 10. God answered the prayers of a Roman Centurion because he used his power and wealth to provide for the poor. It was because of his giving (not his tithing!), that God used him as the first Gentile family to become Christians. We have Cornelius to thank for bringing the Gospel to the non-Jewish world.
February 3rd, 2006 at 12:18 pm
Wow, the Bono speech was really powerful.
A question. I’ve always believed in the whole 10% thing. And always believed the whole storehouse (local church) thing too. I like considering the alternative views here.
My question is, if our tithe does not go to the local church, how does the local church maintain and operate? The workman is worthy of his wages–I don’t think all pastors should be tentmakers, nor do I believe Paul’s theology taught that (though perhaps his example did).
Thanks!
KM
February 3rd, 2006 at 12:25 pm
KM,
I think you missed the point. The issue (for me at least) isn’t where the money goes, its whether 10% is required or not.
I would hope that if you are regularly attending a church that you would help support it financially.
February 3rd, 2006 at 1:14 pm
Ok, gotcha. Bono’s point is powerful though.
KM
February 3rd, 2006 at 3:43 pm
Nice job jp.Your negativity towards tithing is causing healthy Christians to reconsider giving to the church. Its one thing if you want to try to justinfy.or I mean justify with scripture why you want to keep your money from God but I would hope you would consider you may be confusing some of Gods people causing them to stumble. Don’t get me wrong,I get your sense of humor sometimes it cracks me up but I don’t know if God has the same sense of humor in regards to word and his children.
I agree that the most important thing in regards to giving is where our hearts are but I do want to mention my thoughts about the whole Abraham tithing based on a decision and not a command. I get tired of hearing the old “its old testament” cliché .We were grafted into the Abrahamic seed group and it is still valid today.Unless the cross set aside something from the old testament,we are part of it today.The cross never set aside the law about first fruits offering or tithing. Why did Abraham pay tithe to Melchizedek before Moses ever gave the law? You will know why once you look at what God did for Abraham,he was one of the most blessed men in the world. consequently,there must be something to this .
Lets face it. Most of us don’t want to tithe .Convincing us why we shouldn’t is easy.There are times when I would rather keep my money to myself but I know personally that my life changed for the better that 3 years ago when I first started tithing and I know dozens of other people with similar stories.I know you guys are tired of hearing about it but the reason I’m so passionate about it is because I know what its done for me and I want everyone to have that same blessing and release
For where your treasure is,there your heart will be also
mathew 6:21
you cannot serve both god and money
mathew 6:24
WWJD
February 3rd, 2006 at 4:09 pm
Based on the theory of “Abrahamic covanent of blessings” we are required to buy the blessings from God. However, based on the theory of “Grace on the Cross” God blesses because he loves us.
Now, I haven’t spent a lot of time studying the Abrahamic Covenant thing so maybe you can help me out here. I’ve looked and I can’t find any scriptures that directly tie God’s blessing Abraham with him tithing. I see that God blessed him for being obediant, but I can’t find God commanding 10%.
The other problem with this is that CBC teaches that if you don’t give 10% all the time on everything then God can not bless you. This is just a shot in the dark, but I’ll bet you haven’t given 10% on absolutely everything which means God can’t get the credit for your life change.
You see, my problem is that it’s a huge manipulation technique to cause people to give to a certain cause and it’s not Biblically backed. Frank will say whatever he has to. I have heard from many people (some still go to CBC) who say Frank has said “We need the money so I’m going to keep on preaching on tithe.”
I think Fezzik brought up the best point. If the church has to keep pushing you to give then they clearly aren’t practicing what they preach. Did you ever hear Jesus say “Sell all your possesions, and give all you have to me, so I can build a great kingdom to help the poor”? No, he didn’t want the money…because he didn’t need the money.
Brandon mention that it takes millions to move the mountains we move, but I want to know is:
How much money did it cost for Jesus to feed the 5000?
How much did raising Lazarus from the dead set him back?
Healing the sick, casting out demons, whats that cost 1 maybe to million?
The cross has so much more to offer then that.
February 3rd, 2006 at 4:15 pm
Ok, just did a little bit more research on the whole Abrahamic Covenant thing and I’ve got a verse that needs to be explained.
Gen 17:9-10
9 Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised.
Could someone tell me how tithing gets put in and circumcision gets taken out?
If we are going to buy into this whole covenant thing, then I think we’ve got some work to do (snip, snip).
February 3rd, 2006 at 4:16 pm
RP.
Rock on.
February 3rd, 2006 at 4:45 pm
J.P
It takes money to move mountians. it takes faith to tithe, If i tithe in faith that this is what god has asked me to do then mabey the tithe comes before the fiath in this case on tithing mabey it is the disapline to tither which displays the faith on which mountians can be moved. Now it does not take money to move all mountians that was not my point. My point is to justify how much we need each year vs how much we spend. it is not like cbc has a savings account for the eldership to buy vacation houses at the end of the year with left over money.
JP and Justin and to all others this is my point.
CBC displays gods heart. You ask where is our faith if we are asking for money? to that I say good question. But have you ever sat down and thought, mabey the reason they ask for money is because they ie the eldership ie pastor frank have already moved in faith. We are going to give this much this year to missions. He makes this claim at the beggining of the year not at the end after the money has been collected, and then belives god to meet that financial commitment. The faith proclimation the whole foward together we set a goal based on what god asked PF to believe for and then not only did god answer the prayer/ meet the goal he succedded.
Money makes this world that we live in go round, it was not like this in the old days of moses and abraham. But CBC is very much a church that is moving by faith first. We Pray first and ask god ” God how much do we believe for?” and then in faith we ask and in return God always exceeds what we first asked for. Would you not agree that it takes faith to ask a church who tithes 10 milllion and year alone to just caught up and give another 3 million becuase we are moving foward together. I would say that it took a big set of balls to ask such a generous church for that much more. But it was because god gave frank the vision and then he cast the vision to us as members and when we stepped up to the plate and came up with the cash the vision was now also my own. And man what a vision.
Faith, Yeah, I think that kind of faith is nearly the essence of the word. Sorry for mis spells ect I am working right now
Brandon
February 3rd, 2006 at 5:18 pm
Forward Together?????
You paid off some debt…and then got into more
Remodeled an already nice campus… as megachurchsurvivor once said “the homeless sure appreciate the new lighting package you have”
Opened a church on the westside… hence the increase in debt
Stratigicly evangelized… which was really just advertising
Your pastor spent 6 months telling us why it was so important to give to the new carpet fund and then threw a huge expensive party to kick the whole campaign off.
Brandon, I like you… don’t be such a sucker.
Everything you said sounds great… but so do the millions of inspirational speakers that travel the globe each year. Just because it sounds good doesn’t mean its true.
Look at what Jesus did with his life and compare it with what CBC does. When I do that with my own life I am always convicted.
February 3rd, 2006 at 5:32 pm
If you tithe, in order to achieve a bigger blessing (or return “above and beyond”) financially…it is basic paganistic religion. Remember? The pagan gods and shamans required sacrifices in order to insure a great crop (or blessing) or bountiful fishing harvest or whatever. The “give in order to insure that I will prosper” is a pretty basic shamanistic practice.
Remember, Jesus Christ was sacrificed for our sins, in order that we would obtain eternal life through faith in Him….tithing is good….giving of our finances and time (remember, your time is also sacrificial giving for the purposes of our Lord)…is also good. But all these things have to come from a wellspring in our heart for our love of Jesus. I also carry, and most of us always will, the thought that if we give, then he shall never leave us…and that is very true! But we have to stop and be careful about who and what we actually believe here….if a church is pressuring and guilting, in order for their financial needs (above and beyond of course) to be met….well, think about it…step back….pray….and don’t let that pressure shape a beautiful gift (giving out of love and sacrifice for our Lord) into a peer-driven, self-protectionism that it could unfortunately become. It is a fine line we walk here; and it is easily exploited by those folks who are good at manipulation and prosperity messages…so just be careful, and know why you give, and spread it out a little….the amount of Christian and Christian-based charities are incredible in numbers, and can always use your money to help them to perform their missions. And it is o.k.; that when you give, you feel very good and very much a sense of release and relief in letting go of that money that we always want and need to hold onto. And yes, I believe God will bless you for it! Praise Him!
February 3rd, 2006 at 7:53 pm
Wow JP, I think this is probably the best entry I’ve read on this site (not that others weren’t incredibly hilarious). The comments for this are amazing as well. These are some very good resources. Most people won’t agree with it even after reading the scriptures and all the other references, but having gone to CBC for 19 years I know it’s sometimes hard to start questioning the “norm”. I strongly believe that you should be giving to the church if you are regularly attending, but how much you give is up to you. Posts like this are good.
February 3rd, 2006 at 11:19 pm
jp
Just to clarify and simplify the whole 10% tithing thing with the new testament and also explain the Abrahamic covenant .
Galatians 3:6-9
Consider Abraham: “He believed God and it was credited to him as righteousnes. ” Understand,then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The scripture foresaw that God would justify the gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham : ” All nations will be blessed through you.” So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
Hebrew 7:1-2
This Melchizedek was was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him, and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything.
Hebrew 6:20
where Jesus ,who went before us, has entered on our behalf.He has become a high priest forever , in the order of Melchizadek
colossians 1:24
Now i rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I will fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body,which is the church
Ephesians 5:29
After all,no one has ever hated his own body,but he feeds and cares for it,just as christ does the church-for we are members of His body
So we are still under Abrahams seed and blessings and Abraham new Gods heart.Tithing was just one of the things he did and he gave his tithe to Melchizadek who ,(as we see) has been replaced with Christ.And Chist and the church are one
I know your a smart guy John Paul so I dont think i nees to explain why we no longer need to circumcise,Its all over the new testament. Im curiuos why you would bring up that topic by the way.
Ive always just given tithe out of faith and trust in my leaders and never needed to have it explained to me but thanks to you guys ,I was prompted to look to the bible for answers and lo and behold,there it is in new and old testament.So thanks
WWJD
February 4th, 2006 at 12:40 am
I don’t think God needs our tithe, I think he needs our heart. The tithe is just a test.
I don’t think he is honored by preachers beating it to a pulp–I think if a pastor emphasizes tithes or finances, then it is a lack of faith on their part to believe that God will accomplish what he said he would accomplish.
God can turn the channels of a King’s heart–he can certainly get any of us to tithe if he sees fit.
KM
February 4th, 2006 at 9:49 am
KariMichelle
I’m sorry. I have no idea who you are, are there are lots of places where I’ve been the only blonde, so unfortunately that wasn’t much of a clue. But you can email me back at hmackie@dccnet.com. I’d love to chat.
Thanks, Hannah
February 4th, 2006 at 10:16 am
1 Corinthians 5:11
But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolator or a SLANDERER ,a drunkard or a swindler.
WWJD
February 4th, 2006 at 2:15 pm
WWJD
All you did was take a bunch of scriptures that are not related and tried to tie them together to prove a point. You can make the bible say anything you want if you follow this line of reasoning. It’s absolutely ridiculous. And its also what Frank Damazio does for many of his sermons.
I know that you are different from most of the CBC crowd, and thats why I’m shocked that you can’t see past their BS.
Why is it that we are supposed to believe that circumcision, which is clearly a part of the Covenant, is no longer necessary, but that tithe, which takes quite a stretch to include, is still valid?
How many of the rules behind the covenant does your church still teach as valid?
Preaching on tithe is the only part that benefits them… I know you can see it.
Maybe I missed something, show me again how you link “tithing to the church” with the “covenant” and why it’s more valid then circumcision today.
BTW I enjoy the dialog. Let’s get together sometime.
February 4th, 2006 at 4:12 pm
As long as people are open,i also enjoy a good dialog.As far as putting together different scriptures to prove a point. Its true that you can use different versus together to say anything you want but the versus I mentioned above are directly correlated .Abraham tithed to Melchizedek who has been replaced by Jesus who is head of the church.And since the bible states that he still our forefather we should follow his example .And one of his greatest examples was tithing and how blessed he was in finances, family and spirit.
The cross did not set this aside it did however speak towards circumcision in romans 4:9
Is this blessedness only for the circumsized or also for the uncircumsized? we have been saying that abrahams faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumsied? or Before? It was not after but before. And he recieved the sign of circumsicion a seal of the righousness that he had by faith while he was uncircumsied. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumsised, in order that righteousness mighted be credited to them. Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that is may be grace and may be guarentee to all abrahams offspring-not only to those who are of the law but to those who are of the faith of abraham. He is the father of all of us. As it is written ” I have made you a father of many nations” He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed- the god who gives life to the dead and call things that are not as thought they were.
This is a great scripture because it shows how importnant Abraham was and is and explians why we are no longer obligated to the law of circumcision.
WWJD
February 4th, 2006 at 7:30 pm
WWJD,
You claim that in Romans 4 we are no longer obligated to the law of circumcision because we are now children of faith. But in the same breath you claim we should still observe Abraham’s custom of tithing as if it were law!!!
I’m sorry, WWJD, but your arguments in this regard no longer hold up. Stop arguing in circles.
February 4th, 2006 at 8:21 pm
WWJD,
Read Hebrews 8 and 9 and let me know if you still think we are bound by the Abrahamic Covenant. Especially 8:13. I read a few commentarys today and they seem to think the “old covenant” has been replaced with the “new” one (christ on the cross).
Also, I’d like to get your email address if you don’t mind. Email me @ mortonjp14@hotmail.com