Jesus Loves The Little Tither
Posted on February 3rd, 2006 by Reformed Pope into the Uncategorized, Songs that mock categoryI’ve heard a lot of people talk about how tithing is directly related to the Abrahamic Covenant of Blessing. And while I don’t know much about the Abrahamic Covenant I do know about mocking people with song.
I have re-written the lyrics to an old childrens classic. As with all our songs they are much funnier if you actually sing them…and in this case act them out. Let’s all join in a circle and sing:
FATHER ABRAHAMIC
Father Abrahamic
Had many covenants
Many covenants had father Abrahamic
Blessings one of them
And so is blessing
So lets all give our tithe
Check book.
Father Abrahamic
Had many covenants
Many covenants had father Abrahamic
Blessing is one of them
And so is blessing
So lets all give our tithe
Check book, Pay in cash
Father Abrahamic
Had many covenants
Many covenants had father Abrahamic
Blessings one of them
And so is blessing
So lets all give our tithe
Check book, Pay in cash, Get your wallet
Father Abrahamic
Had many covenants
Many covenants had father Abrahamic
Blessings one of them
And so is blessing
So lets all give our tithe
Check book, Pay in cash, Get your wallet, Credit Card,
Father Abrahamic
Had many covenants
Many covenants had father Abrahamic
Blessings one of them
And so is blessing
So lets all give our tithe
Check book, Pay in cash, Get your wallet, Credit Card, MORTGAGE YOUR HOUSE
February 3rd, 2006 at 5:30 pm
One good song deserves another:
Jesus loves the little tithers
All the tithers of the world
Write a check or pay in cash
Ten percent is all he asks
Jesus loves the little tithers of the world
February 3rd, 2006 at 6:01 pm
This is the tithe
This is the tithe
That the Lord demands
That the Lord demands
I will give it
I will give it
Or he can’t bless me
Or he can’t bless me
This is the tithe that the Lord demands
I will give it
Or He’ll trash my plans
This is the tithe
This is the tithe
That the Lord demands
February 3rd, 2006 at 8:06 pm
Sung to “I’m in the Lord’s army”
I will never sing on the worship team,
Work in the children’s church,
Pass out the bulletins,
I will never host a small group
If I don’t pay my tithe!
I must pay my tithe,
I must pay my tithe!
I can’t even vacuum the carpet
If I don’t pay my tithe!!
February 3rd, 2006 at 8:20 pm
Tithe, tithe with all your heart…
It’s you the church will thank.
For when you tithe you do your part,
And that is blessing Frank.
February 4th, 2006 at 7:32 am
You’ve got to tithe, tithe, tithe, tithe
To C-B-C (Where?)
To C-B-C (Where?)
To C-B-C
You’ve got to tithe, tithe, tithe, tithe
To C-B-C (Where?)
To C-B-C each week
And if you don’t tithe, then God will curse you
He’ll give you German measles and audit on your taxes
If you don’t tithe, then God will curse you
So don’t delay, get out your checkbooks now!
February 4th, 2006 at 8:11 am
Ephesians 5:11
Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk,or course joking,which are out of place
WWJD
February 4th, 2006 at 8:47 am
Philippians 1:27
Whatever happens, conductyourselves in a monner worthy of the gospel of Christ
WWJD
February 4th, 2006 at 9:21 am
1 Corinthians 1:10
I appeal to you,brothers,in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no division among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought
WWJD
February 4th, 2006 at 10:17 am
Who here is glad to have JohnPaul back?!
February 4th, 2006 at 10:23 am
Oh, please, WWJD. Put your sword away before you cut off someone’s ear.
.
Methinks you do not understand the premise of this thread. Let me explain: This is not obscenity, or coarse jesting, or belittling the Lord Jesus Christ or His beloved. This is pointing out the extreme unbiblical emphasis on tithing using the literary device of parody.
.
To connect every promise of Scripture with one’s wallet should be considered “extreme unbiblical emphasis.” Yet this is done every week when the entire congregation is instructed to declare “As I give in today’s offering….” And thus my own words bind me to that premise. It’s an affront to the Cross.
.
Further, in typical CBC fashion, you have confused “unity” as agreeing with PF. True unity comes when we all agree with the Lord. That is the basis of John 17. Eph. 4:3-13 gives instructions to Christians when there are areas of disagreement.
.
So calm down. And check your references. Eph 5:11 does not say that.
February 4th, 2006 at 11:01 am
Sorry Eph 5:4
WWJD
February 4th, 2006 at 11:04 am
Anna
Further, in typical CBC fashion, you have confused “unity” as agreeing with PF. True unity comes when we all agree with the Lord
If the whole congregation agrees with the Lord in the area of tithing along with pastor Frank,wouldnt that be unity
February 4th, 2006 at 11:17 am
Anna,
”Put your sword away…”
You win the wit award for the day….I totally laughed out loud.
And, WWJD, it’s more credit than you really deserve at this point. I think maybe a more appropriate comment might be: “Don’t run with scissors”. As I said before, you’re only making yourself look foolish and unthoughtful. PF is just a guy with opinions, and agreeing with him because he said something doesn’t of itself make you a better person. Let it go, grow up, pull up your knickers and flex a brain cell for your own self. I’m not saying this to belittle you or be mean. I’m using the gift of exhortation, as it were. Don’t be a baby. If you can’t take the heat, get out of the virtual kitchen (rather than misquoting the Bible and accusing people of slander).
February 4th, 2006 at 11:19 am
So I know you dont like pastor Frank to talk about tithing so what if the apostle Paul says to
1 Corinthians 16:1-2
Now about the collection for Gods people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. On the first day of every week,each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income,saving it up so that when I come no collections will have to be made
WWJD
February 4th, 2006 at 11:22 am
Yes, if the whole congregation agrees with PF about tithing, that would be unity.
.
And what’s so great about unity that it should be considered an end in itself? Were not the builders of the tower of babel in unity? Were not the Nazis in unity with Hitler?
.
Again, in typical CBC fashion, a THING is considered the goal. UNITY is a goal, HONOR is a goal, BLESSING AND FAVOR is a goal, POWER is a goal, ANNOINTING is a goal.
.
Should we not be like Paul: “That I may KNOW HIM…” All these other things come after, either in this age or in the age to come.
.
Chip Brogden says it so much better:
http://www.theschoolofchrist.org/articles/desire.html
February 4th, 2006 at 11:32 am
jiminycricket
rather than misquoting the Bible and accusing people of slander).
If you look up those scriptures you will see they are in the bible and not misqouted my friend. And as Ive said before,im not getting upset or being a baby . i work with with a lot of people who dont know Christ and some that say they do but dont show it or live and i enjoy talking with them . Enlightening you guys with scripture is what I live for.
And according to my 4 year old son Im very growd up because I can stay up late and he cant.I also stopped wearing knickers 6 months ago (who uses that terminolgy anymore btw )
WWJD
February 4th, 2006 at 11:35 am
I just have to commend you, JP, for the thought provoking scriptures you reference in your last post. In the past I have pretty much discounted a lot of what you’ve said simply because I disagree with your attitude and stance against CBC. Even though you don’t really know me (directly) I have to apologize for being so judgemental in my perception of who you are as a person. I wouldn’t appreciate it if others judged me the way I have been judging you. I honestly understand and appreciate your humor, that’s why I can’t seem to quit checking the blog regularly! We go to the same church and for a long time I just couldn’t understand how you could personally justify your involvement, but I’m realizing more and more that it’s not my issue to understand. In fact, I’ll probably be lucky to see the back of your head in heaven, so kudos and keep up the good work!
By the way, these songs are hillarious!!! Thanks everyone.
February 4th, 2006 at 11:38 am
In case you guys didnt read this
Advocate said:
February 4th, 2006 at 1:23 am
Let me begin by saying that this is an impressive site. Kudos Justin and JP, nice work. I just wanted to take this opprotunity to share a few of my thoughts on the CBC “debate” or whatever you want to call it. I am a current CBC member and feel very blessed to have such an awesome home church. I have been at CBC for a number of years and also am a fellow alumni of TCHS.
I have spent about the last hour reading over the comments on this site and a common thought among many of you seems to be that if you are around CBC for too long you become brainwashed into believing whatever you are told and never trying to figure things out for yourself. I would say that I disagree with this theory. I believe that God appoints certain people to lead His church. Their job is to “lead” us and “guide” us according to God’s word. It’s not to say that we blindly follow. We all have the ability to seek God and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal to us the truth. These people that God appoints are still just that…people. They are human in every way and are by no means perfect. They make mistakes just like anyone else.
I have personally experienced this at CBC. I had a situation come up several years ago that many of the leaders and elders were involved in. It was a very personal and emotional situation and I felt like there were several mistakes made by the those involved in the way it was handeled. But I realized soon after it was over that it was a learning experience for everyone involved. I know that it would not be handeled in the exact same way today. The point is that human error is not always completely avoidable.
Rick Warren is the author of The Purpose Driven Life. (If any of you haven’t read this book yet you should. It is very simple, yet profoundly impacting.) In his book he says, “We protect the fellowship when we honor those who serve us by leading.” Being the leader (or servent) of such a massive congregation as CBC is a huge responsibility. And Pastor Frank lives his life under a giant magnifying glass. But he is a very humble man and he handles what must be an incredible amount of pressure with grace.
There is an entire chapter in the Purpose Driven Life called Protecting the Church. In it Warren writes, “There are no perfect leaders, but God gives leaders the responsibility and the authority to maintain the unity of the church.” And since we are called to honor those appointed by God to lead us, it becomes our responsibility to protect and promote unity among God’s people. (Romans 14)
I think that most, if not all, of the people that frequent this site love the Lord and we all just want the truth. I am not here to judge anyone or to be confrontational. I only want to share my heart and offer a different perspective. Food for thought if you will.
The Bible says that you will know them by their fruit. I believe City Bible to be a fruitfull church. Not only because it is constantly growing and expanding, finding new ways to reach people and minister to their needs, or because they are making a major impact on this city and many others around the world. But because they help to change lives from the inside out. People grow in their walks with Christ at CBC. Not to say that you can’t grow anywhere else because of course you can. And not to say that everyone who attends CBC will grow, as it first has to be a desire. But if that is all that really matters… if that is what makes a church successfull, their ability to bring people to Christ and help them to grow up spiritually so that they too can help bring people to Christ, then CBC is a success.
Anyway, I think this site definatly provokes thought and forces people to really think for themselves and take a stand for what they believe. I agree with JP, it doesn’t really matter where you go to church. As long as everyone is happy and growing in their walks with the Lord then to each his own. Thanks for hearing me out. God Bless!
February 4th, 2006 at 11:42 am
anna said
Should we not be like Paul: “That I may KNOW HIM…” All these other things come after, either in this age or in the age to come.
wouldnt knowing him be a goal
WWJD
February 4th, 2006 at 11:46 am
“wouldnt knowing him be a goal”
WWJD,
Um… not really, just let it go! If you look at it that way EVERYTHING is a goal.
February 4th, 2006 at 12:04 pm
Exatly right
WWJD
February 4th, 2006 at 12:04 pm
re: 1 Cor 16:1-2
What would you expect from an ex-tax man?
February 4th, 2006 at 12:08 pm
To the person who commented that he’s an alumni of TCHS and a current member of CBC…
You wrote:
———
I believe that God appoints certain people to lead His church. Their job is to “lead” us and “guide” us according to God’s word. It’s not to say that we blindly follow. We all have the ability to seek God and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal to us the truth. These people that God appoints are still just that…people. They are human in every way and are by no means perfect. They make mistakes just like anyone else.
———
I think you are very atypical of ANY large church. (Meaning, you are different.)
Most people do NOT think for themselves. They simply suck from the tit of the pastor and swallow everything that sounds “about right”.
I, too, believe that some folks are “appointed” by God to “lead” and “guide”, but scriptural precident does not put these folks as the heads of multi-million dollar international organizations with people coming once or twice a week to stand in a nicely air-conditioned room, sing with a highly skilled rock band, or sit on a comfy seat and stare at giant LCD video screen.
It’s good that you are able to think for yourself, but I fear you do not represent the average church-goer, especially at CBC. How many of your friends do you know that go home after a service, open their Bible, research the scripture(s) given in the sermon, and actually dwell on the intuition that the spirit inside them gives to them for confirmation and revelation of what was “preached”?
February 4th, 2006 at 12:12 pm
Advocate:
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, and I am glad you have a found a church you enjoy.
I do not doubt that City Bible does some good. I just think they also do a significant amount of harm, mainly by preaching that if you give them money, God will make you rich. I vehemently disagree with this line of preaching. And I think the harm from this type of preaching outweighs any good the church may do.
Thus, the blog.
February 4th, 2006 at 12:44 pm
Henri said
It’s good that you are able to think for yourself, but I fear you do not represent the average church-goer, especially at CBC
I can say that me ,chocalate thunder,survivor,advocate and at least 30 other people i know personaly that share the same thoughts and we are always encouraged to read our bible regularly by pastor Frank.
Justin
Pastor Frank has never said that if you give money ,God will make you rich and you can go back in their archives and listen to the sermons to find this out
WWJD
February 4th, 2006 at 12:56 pm
“we are always encouraged to read our bible regularly by pastor Frank.”
I’m sure you are. Do you? Do your 30 other friends? My point is that the VAST majority of people sitting in the pews don’t bother.. they simply accept whatever the preacher tells them is truth.
I’m not going to say that every sermon of every preacher in a big church or CBC is the devil in disguise… of course it is not… but every once in a while, there are some wacky ideas coming off the pulpit of many churches, CBC included, and the “conditioned” members of the audience rarely “go to the source” and “check the facts” with their bible or their spirit.
Perhaps you are an exception. I have no idea, as I don’t know you nor do I dare to judge you. All I know is that I’ve sat through a lot of crap from different churches (including CBC), and sometimes the “word of god” is twisted in a very subtle way. At CBC, I don’t think Frank has ever said “tithing will make you rich”, but it is certainly *implied* that if you are NOT rich, part of the “problem” is that you need to tithe more. I’ve heard various CBC pastors say this myself over the years I was there… tithing is how you get god’s blessing.. and if you don’t tithe (enough), then you will not be “blessed”.. and this includes “blessing” in the financial sense.
They might not come outright and say it, but it is certainly *implied* that in order to get more money from god, you must tithe.
I can’t think of one tithing sermon I sat through where “tithing” and “god’s blessing of finances” weren’t mentioned at the same time.
Anyway.. please don’t take it personally.
February 4th, 2006 at 12:56 pm
Im so glad you all kept writing, its my daily dose of sarcastic church humor!!
WWPFD
February 4th, 2006 at 1:06 pm
To add to my last post, I know from personal friends of mine and pastor Frank that he does not like asking for money. In fact ,He has never said you will be rich if you tithe or cursed if you dont. anytime he talkes about giving he uses a lot of tact and does so humbly.
The reason Im so passionate about giving is because of personal testimony and ny belief in the bible
WWJD
February 4th, 2006 at 1:11 pm
WWJD - I’m not sure what the NY belief in the Bible is, don’t they use the same Bible we do here in OR?
February 4th, 2006 at 1:15 pm
mal3:10
10 Bring all the tithes into the storehouse so there will be enough food in my Temple. If you do,” says the LORD Almighty, “I will open the windows of heaven for you. I will pour out a blessing so great you won’t have enough room to take it in! Try it! Let me prove it to you!
February 4th, 2006 at 1:15 pm
>> The reason Im so passionate about giving is because of personal
>> testimony and ny belief in the bible
Not to sound crass or anything, but why don’t you share your testimony with us? I’m very curious as to how you put a hard link between tithing and whatever benefit you apparently received as a direct result from it. (Whether it’s financial or otherwise.)
>> I know from personal friends of mine and pastor Frank that he
>> does not like asking for money.
You know, there are other things he can preach about. If a person is truly following God, listening to his spirit, and actively living a Holy Spirit led life.. then his own spirit will convict him of the “need” to tithe. Frank isn’t needed. But that doesn’t bring in as much money to the church as preaching the usual “tithe or you won’t be blessed!” direct approach.
I propose a challenge to all large “tithe and be blessed” churches that they might stop preaching on tithing and instead concentrate on getting the person’s life into an active relationship with God, listening to the spirit, and working through the convictions of their spirit. By definition, if tithing is truly biblically based, then ever true christian should be convicated by the SPIRIT to tithe, as the SPIRIT leads.
February 4th, 2006 at 1:17 pm
WWJD - I’m not sure what the NY belief in the Bible is, don’t they use the same Bible we do here in OR?
Not according to catalyst and reformed pope
February 4th, 2006 at 1:20 pm
>> Try it! Let me prove it to you!
Indeed. I know many people who have tithed regularily their whole lives, and they have dead-end jobs with very little money.
I also know lots of people who DO NOT tithe, who went to college, work very hard, and make a ton of cash.
Tithing does NOT = a “blessing” of increased financial wealth.
When a person, or worse, a pastor, insinuates that tithing is some kind of “key” to achieving wealth.. that makes me sick.
Try it? Prove it to me? Good grief. Sure, go ahead. I’ve tithed my entire life, and I don’t think “God” has “given” me anything more then any of my non-christian friends who curse god every day, obviously do not tithe, and have a lot more money then me.
I dare ANYONE to show a direct, provable link, between tithing and getting more money. If you do, you’ll have the best “get rich quick” scheme in the history of mankind.
February 4th, 2006 at 1:34 pm
I think anna suffers from jimminy cricket syndrome. You use inteligence to hide total weakness. I am already very tired of seeing those 2 kiss the rears of justin and jp although I do secretley wish I could kiss those 2’s rear.
Yum that sounds like it could be fun. What do you guys think. A little of you and me and we could all be united according to Anna perception of unity.
Yeay I hope you read past the words and grasped the humor. In case any of you missed I was JOKING.
Justin and JP are both very bright, funny and hey lets face it “Good Lookin Guys” But they do mis the point at times also. If you think I am wrong that Class please turn in your Bibles to
Romans 13 and read through to about verse 6 and get back to me on what happens when speak against Those who God has chosen to lead his Church.
February 4th, 2006 at 1:36 pm
And Yes I am also glad that JP is back.
February 4th, 2006 at 1:39 pm
>> get back to me on what happens when speak against
>>Those who God has chosen to lead his Church.
Wow. That almost sounds a bit “catholic”.
Tell you what… when God literally calls Frank’s name from the heavens or has one of his proven prophets anoint him with oil… I’ll *then* consider Frank as a Legitimate Speaker For God.
But until then… he’s just an elected CEO of an organization that preaches christianity.
February 4th, 2006 at 1:52 pm
Henri
I actually like a lot of you have to say and by and large you are correct that most poeple who attend church do nothing outside of that . I was raised in a christian home and was raised mostly baptist.I have attended lots of different churches and found some i liked and some that didnt fit me.My parents have always struggled financially and ,coincidentaly, had never benn into tithing much less offerings. I have had my ups and downs( mostly downs ) financially and was reading my bible occasionally . I always felt like there was something holding me back from truly giving myself completely over to Christ and it wasnt until one day when my wife was stressing out bill collectors calling and i was alrwady working 40+ hours at work . I caught myself watching a tbn show ( which i would normaly never watch) about tithing and giving and blessing. Say what you want but i felt like god was trying to tell me something about my heart in regards to money. I had benn attending cbc for a couple of years at that point and was loving the church but it was not pastor frank or cbc that motivated me to tithe ,it was God . Based on my upbringing and outlook on tithe ,I thought just like you guys and even hated the word money in church. Taht night ,I told God that from that point on,I would put my money in his control and he could do with it what he wants. thats was 3 years ago and i have not missed a tithe since. Maybe its just by chance but i was promoted at work within 2 months of that night and have since purchased my first home and always seem to have financial provision. the biggest change however has been in my walk with Chist. i feel like that huge leap of faith in giving helped my faith grow in all areas of my life and I seem to grow in Him daily
So thats why Im so big on tithing. Not because I blindly follow my pastor as jiminycricket might suggest, but because of my personal testimony which no one take from me . I learn that the more i read my bible and pray and serve, the more i respect my church and its leaders
WWJD
February 4th, 2006 at 2:03 pm
WWJD,
Thanks for sharing your testimony.
I think the most important thing you said was this:
———
Say what you want but i felt like god was trying to tell me something about my heart in regards to money.
———
It was god (the conviction of the sprit within you) who prompted you to begin tithing. Not Frank or the church.
The problem that I have, and that perhaps others have, is that many people tithe only because they are told they must and that they will reap a financial reward for doing so. That is how it comes across from the pulpit of many churches, and is not a biblically based message.
I think that your testimony is exactly how tithing should come about in a person’s life. It is a direct result of spiritual growth, followed by conviction of the spirit in that area, followed by your action to remove that conviction by doing what the spirit has shown you to do.
As for a direct correlation between tithing and financial reward, in your case… it might be. Certainly, the bible does not remove that as a possible blessing. The point I have is that financial blessing as direct result of tithing is not always going to happen, as it is taught from the pulpit of many churches.
I do appreciate your testimony though. It’s similar to my own! I’m sure you’ve linked to my old “gimme” site… and strange as it may seem, that idea came to me after testing god to show me a way to get a little cash so that I could give it all away. He did, and I did. Ever since then, I’ve tithed on everything I make. Sometimes I am blessed (rewarded) with increased finances, and sometimes it is in other ways. Either way, I don’t tithe because I want a reward from god. I tithe because if I don’t, the spirit within me convicts me that I must.
February 4th, 2006 at 2:27 pm
Henri
I think you and i agree has a whole in regards to scripture and our hearts for Christ . I want to propose a question, knowing what you and I know about the spiritual and many times financial rewards of giving of our income , what would you do as the pastor of the church to encourage poeple to take this leap of faith without coming across as money hungry.
WWJD
February 4th, 2006 at 2:35 pm
WWJD,
You said “In fact ,He [Frank Damazio] has never said you will be rich if you tithe or cursed if you dont.
Please listen to the following sermon and then tell me if he has never said God will curse you for not tithing. Not only does he say that, but he also says you will be charge 20% interest on the money you should have tithed and that he simply cannot bless you. (I’m not making this up, if I were it would have been funny)
A Life that Honors God Pt 2
Frank Damazio
November 21, 2004
For the record, I’ve never heard directly say that you will be rich if you tithe…I have heard that implied many times, but never actually said.
I believe that Frank Damazio tried to manipulate me into giving money to him and his church, I can’t judge his heart, so maybe it was for a good reason, but it’s still manipulation and it’s still BS.
February 4th, 2006 at 2:54 pm
>> what would you do as the pastor of the church to encourage poeple to
>> take this leap of faith without coming across as money hungry.
That’s a really difficult question. Not because I don’t have an answer (I do!), but because God has never placed the burdon of “pastorship” on me, and it is way too easy for me to sit on my stand and say, “This is what I would do!”.. without any of the actual reality of being in that position to influence my actual actions.
That being said, should the Lord ever put me in the position of “pastoring” a large (or small!) church, I like to think that I would preach the concept of tithing, as I believe God revealed it to me in my own life. To me, tithing is my way of giving back to god, for the grace he has given me. It is a recognition that every material possesion I have is nothing more then a gift from god and that I am merely a steward of it. It is his to begin with, and his to end with. I give to god, not only a portion of my money, but a portion of my *time*, in humble recognition that he has given me that, too.
What would I do to tell people to take this leap of faith? Well, I would not tell them it’s a leap of faith. I would explain what is tithing, according to the scripture, as best I could. Then I would ask them to go home, take their own bibles, and ask god to reveal his truth to their spirit. If this results in a conviction to tithe.. then good. If not, then I know it’s merely a matter of *time* before it does.. but perhaps god/spirit has other things for that person to work on at the moment.
What I would try NOT to do, is create some kind of fairy-tale corrolation between tithing and “getting back from god” in the form of a blessing. Yes, I realize this is scriptural, too.. and that god does promise a blessing… however, I feel that in today’s age, it is too easy to merely *mention* the prospect of “financial blessing”, and that becomes the purpose of tithing for that person. I want to be aware of the time we live in, and let the spirit do its convicting job, because ONLY THEN will the person be giving as it was meant.
Recall, that the spirit of god was not poured out to the people when the bible instructs about tithing. They were COMMANDED to do so because the spirit was not inside them and convicting them at that point. They had the law, and tithing was part of that law. We have the grace of god, and the spirit of god.. and the conviction of god to know right from wrong and what is god’s prompting/commandment and what is not.
I’d like to think that that is enough to help my “flock” understand that tithing is part of being a servant of god. The blessing of tithing is an “extra”, akin to the many other blessings we have in store when we listen and obey to the spirit’s intuition and leading.
In short, my church would probably be broke.
Hahaha. Well, I hope not.. but really, I would be “up to god” to convict and thus, provide. I would try to spend more time preaching the basics of the gospel, then the basics of tithing.
:)
February 4th, 2006 at 2:59 pm
Reformed Pope said:
—————
I believe that Frank Damazio tried to manipulate me into giving money to him and his church, I can’t judge his heart, so maybe it was for a good reason, but it’s still manipulation and it’s still BS.
—————
This is exactly how I feel. Rather then allowing the spirit to convict.. Frank tries to do it for him.
Whenever I left a sermon about tithing, the comments of my friends were always something like:
“He’s right, I need to tithe.”
“Frank is right, I need to tithe.”
“Boy, Frank really nailed it. I need to tithe.”
Do you see what these have in common? FRANK should not be the one telling people to tithe. It should be the spirit doing that job. Frank is there not to convict people, but to instruct them and allow the SPIRIT to convict them.
Proof is in the pudding. Most people who come away from these sermons tend to tithe for a few weeks, months… and then they stop and the cycle repeats. That’s not spirit conviction that results in a life change towards being more christ-like…. that’s simply following the instruction of your pastor until it no longer “feels good” or is forgotten.. and then it’s time for a refresher sermon.
February 4th, 2006 at 3:06 pm
Henri
I like your thoughts. Im not sure exatly how I would do it either but it makes you appreciate what church leaders have to deal with and why i give them some grace.
WWJD
February 4th, 2006 at 3:07 pm
This is why my wife and began tithing. I am sure that if you asked around most healthy; tithing, christians would agree. It is not becuase we feel guilted or presurred to tithe but becuase we feel convicted by the spirit, In our hearts that we should tithe. To put if bluntley Pastor Frank is just doing his job when he reminds us every week to tithe. We are motivated at times when we are not in increase by the promises of god, abundance, our vats spilling over pressed down and shaken together I think. Jp or justin Help me out with this one. What was it that Jack always use to say when he would do the tithe. He quoted that one verse about blessing pressed and shaken and over flowing becuase of what? thats right because of our tithe.
Any how. Let me say it like this. Pastor Frank, CBC and all the TBN leaders put together cannot ever bring a non tithing person to his knees. They will never convict the one who does not tithe to tithe becuase obviousley he is not truley being asked by God to step up to the plate just yet on tithing. But we grow and mature in our walk with God, baby steps turn to real steps which leads to walking and running in faith. God will put it on each one of our hearts at the time he sees fit to start asking us for money. Until God comes knocking on the spiritual door of your heart, then dont worry about. Because until You were not worried about it. But again It is never a good idea to blast eldership because we do know that in Gods eyes they were appointed and not by man to that posistion. Like or not God put those people in those roles and he makes it very clear in Romans 13 that only he shall be the judge. All you other frank Bashers need to get the plank out of your eye and stop looking at his speck. If it were a flaw of Franks to preach on tithing which I am not saying it is “for the record” than great, good for you, you managed to find just one flaw. Call in the judges frank must now die. Get Real. I bet if we all spent 2 hours in a room together talking this out in person, that we could come up with 10’s and 100’s of little flaws that we see in each other. Heck what other good reason can anyone give to remain Anonymous than they have somthing to hide.
February 4th, 2006 at 3:47 pm
Master Story Teller wrote:
———————-
They will never convict the one who does not tithe to tithe becuase obviousley he is not truley being asked by God to step up to the plate just yet on tithing.
———————-
That’s not true, in my experience. Most pastors are very good at preaching a convincing argument. That’s why the tithes increase right after a tithing sermon, and why people give lots of $$ at a fundraiser sermon.
But if that tithing is not sustained.. and the preacher has to go back again and again and again and again to “convince” people that they should continue to tithe…. then that isn’t the spirit convicting. It’s just the preacher being good at what he/she does.
I think it’s fantastic that you tithe because of spirit conviction. But I fear the reason we see so many “you must tithe!” sermons is NOT because the audience are new converts and have never heard it before…. it’s merely because the church’s revenue is getting low and it’s a surefire way to get money coming back in.
Let me explain it a different way:
If tithing is a spirit convicted action… then why does the preacher have to preach on tithing over and over to the same people ever xyz months?
WWJD wrote:
—————
it makes you appreciate what church leaders have to deal with and why i give them some grace.
—————
Definately. I have a lot of grace for “so-called” pastors. I would never in a million years want to have such a position of power and influence over a group of people. My #1 goal would be to continually explain that I am just a teacher.. nothing more.. and that it should be holy spirit confirming with their spirit what ultimately should determine their every action in this world.
But ya… at the same time, I do enjoy ripping on Frank. If he really believes that god put him in that position, then he’ll get over us.
After all, he’s got GOD on his side, right? Perhaps if catalyst or Reformed Pope get hit by lightning, I’ll start rethinking things…
:)
February 4th, 2006 at 3:50 pm
Henry said basically that we no longer a pator becuase it is gods/holy spirits job to convict us. I that were true than we can all go in and fire our pastors at church tomorrow becuase they are interfearing with the holy spirit. COME ON. It is the Pastors job to help bring the spirits convicting, look at paul and his words to the ephesians and corinthians. Telling them were they were in the wrong. Pastor Frank is Simply telling the ones who are not leading Godley lifes how they ought to act. In fact that is one of the Pastors most common jobs. to impart the word of the holy spirit. God speaks to Frank and he then Brings that word to us. Its called a sermon and sometimes it will be about morality and sometimes it will be about tithing but the point is Pastor Frank is just doing his job.
Question for Henri, If i call myself a christian but in my private life and addicted to drugs, having an marital affair and stealing from the company I work for, do you think I will be in a place such as you claim where the Holy spirit can convict. The answer is No. Now at some point yes I will remember that I am sinning but during my sin I was not in the holy spirits so called area code. I could not be condemed by him because I did not really know him. but hey pastor frank is in the flesh to remind us sometimes of the things the spirit has tried to say but we would not hear. Paul did it through out the new testament.
February 4th, 2006 at 4:01 pm
Master Story Teller wrote:
——————-
Question for Henri, If i call myself a christian but in my private life and addicted to drugs, having an marital affair and stealing from the company I work for, do you think I will be in a place such as you claim where the Holy spirit can convict. The answer is No.
——————-
You can call yourself anything you want… but if the spirit of god is living inside you, then yes.. I do think that there will be conviction. Whether you listen or not.. that’s up to you. Over time, you can certainly “squish” the voice of your spirit until it is no longer distinctive over your own fleshly thoughts and cravings.
>> but hey pastor frank is in the flesh to remind us
>> sometimes of the things the spirit has tried to say
>> but we would not hear. Paul did it through out the
>> new testament.
I have never said that there is no place for a pastor in a church, nor have I ever said that it’s not the “job” of a pastor to teach/preach. It is. Granted, I do feel that the modern church gives too much authority to the average pastor.. but that’s besides the point.
My point, in this particular issue, is that I fail to see why it is necessary to preach about tithing SO OFTEN, using various gimmicks to try and get the audience to (re)start tithing… when this audience is largely filled with people who have heard this same message for many many years.. and you and I both would not consider them as having “quenched” the conviction of the spirit in their hearts.
In other words.. do you really think that the spirit of god works in you by convicting you for a while… then you kind of slowly stop hearing his voice (and his conviction)… until you get a recharge from your friendly pastor about tithing again?
I’m speaking in gross generalities here.. because I think the majority of church-goers tend to think this is how “listening to god” actually works… when in fact, they haven’t listened to anything except the natural charisma and convincing power of the pastor/preacher.
True conviction, repentance, and changes of life that are truly sparked and fired by the spirit… should not routinely result in decisions that slowly fade away until the next “powerful” sermon sends you for a recharge.
February 4th, 2006 at 4:06 pm
Master Story Teller wrote:
——————-
Question for Henri, If i call myself a christian but in my private life and addicted to drugs, having an marital affair and stealing from the company I work for, do you think I will be in a place such as you claim where the Holy spirit can convict. The answer is No.
——————-
I’d like to add one more thought to this. I won’t go so far as you did to say “no”.
Why not?
Well.. you need to research the story of John Newman, the guy who wrote, “Amazing Grace“.
He wrote that song about 5 years BEFORE he stopped actively being involved in the slave trade. Yes, that’s right. He was the captain of a slave ship that went to africa and brought back slaves.
He wrote that song after he made it through a nasty storm.. and believed it was god who spared his life. But he did NOT quite the slave trade until MANY years later, after the spirit convicted him of it.
So ya… who is to say how the spirit works regarding conviction. Not me. And it should not be you.
February 4th, 2006 at 5:56 pm
Henry said
“So ya… who is to say how the spirit works regarding conviction. Not me. And it should not be you.”
I never said anything of the sort. All I said is that many people by thier ungodly actions seperate themselves from God, The longer your away the hard is to hear god over yourself, You said it yourself about squishing the voice of god, My point is to say that although god may be trying hard to reach, sometimes it does take a messenger to get the point the across. How about balaam and his donkey, Some times the voice of truth comes from other mouths. Henry other than that small disagreement, I really liked that last couple things you said about the subject of tithing and you seemed very humble in how you would conduct yourself as a church leader. I like that in a person. Humility is a wonderful character trait we see much less of these days. At this point however, You must assume pastor frank is an appointed leader by god becuase if he were not, then the church would have stepped in years ago to remove him, After all the wold in sheeps clothing can only remain hidden until he gets hungry. The point being a fraud will always prove to be a fraud, its just a matter of time. Paster Frank is obviousley no Fraud and therefor any rational mind would concure that this must be a chosen man of God. All of the sudden Romans 13 hits a little closure to home if you look at it from my perspective. This is why no matter who, or why or when, I would never risk Gods Rath which I want to point out is quoted in the new testement here in Romans 13. James also talkes about this when he says, if you hand and your eye and your mouth should cause you to sin, better you cut it out/off than to use them to sin. Just somthing to think about becuase this is matter of heaven and hell in almost every thing we do and say. There is not such thing as luke warm anymore. Your either with us or you are not. God will either welcome you too heaven or he will cast you into hell. Is what you consider a small joke really worth the damage it can do to your soul?
Henry who are you?
Brandon
February 4th, 2006 at 7:10 pm
The songs are cute… if you sing them to their intended tune it’s funny, a sick kind of funny.
but what is interesting is that it really is what is taught in alot of churches. so if you sing these songs you really are singing what is being taught. Kinda like
scripture songs. Only we could call them teaching songs. Maybe you could sell them to Agape music…..
we have music machine, how about tithe machine?
February 4th, 2006 at 7:54 pm
Abraham never tithed to Melchizadek.1) He gave (once and only once) ten percent. Imagine if he’d given 7.34 or 11.13%.Those of us who are mathamatically challenged would have to pray about how much to give. 2)The gift was in goods not money. 3)To my knowledge there is no reference that Abe ever tithed to anyone or any temple …nor Moses …nor Jesus 4)Jesus taught/teaches to give not a percent but 100 percent. “Love the Lord your God with ALL you heart, mind, soul and strength” No amount of giving except perhaps the martyr’s surrender of life measures up to God’s “impossible” demands. I am grateful that by grace I am saved and by grace I live.
February 5th, 2006 at 1:06 pm
Brandon, what does Pastor Frank remaining in leadership have to do with his policies being a “chosen man of God”. God allowed some catholic priests to remain in leadership for many years while they molested children in their parishes. God has allowed pastors to remain in leadership while they had affairs, stole money from the church to name a few, so how do those examples reconcile with your point above? I think what you’re missing here is God laid out the 7 types of churches that exist in Revelations and 5 of them were flawed. Knowing that, how do you know that CBC does not fall under one of the flawed churches that needs to change its ways?
I subscribe to Henry Digby’s assessment that Bible Temple used to be a faithful church, but somewhere along the way transitioned to an Ephesus church that lost its first love. That being said, I think it’s important to push for CBC to change its flaws because it is far to easy to fall back on the log vs. speck and “don’t ever question church authority” argument to excuse ourselves from remaining vigilant against corruption in the church. Feel free to check the blog archives for more discussions on that subject.
February 6th, 2006 at 12:20 am
The sermon pastor Frank gave today was awsome, Me and the 7 other friends and famliy that I was there with said it was one of the most inspirational sermons he has done and i have heard a lot of good ones. The title of sermon full and was in reference to being full of the spirit and less of the world . I love the way he uses scripture in a different way than you would normally apply it . For example,he uses the water into wine scripture and says to imagine that we are the jar and the water he uses to fill it is your normal,unspiritual day to day life. Like a person who is always tryying to fill up their day with activities to stay busy but never having time for God.And when he turns the water into wine its like turning your unspititual self into a spiritual one . That man is brilliant . Ive learned to appreciate him so much more now that Im trying to put together my own bible studies and I cant come up with anything close to what he is able to do . I would encourage you to listen to his sermon online with an open mind and try to let the Holy Spirit in and see if your cup has some room to be filled or possibly overfilled.
God bless
WWJD
February 6th, 2006 at 6:30 am
WWJD, I’m curious. Do you condone the drinking of alcohol? Because I believe you just mentioned that a container of water is unspiritual and a container of wine is spiritual. How do you reconcile that statement with CBC’s position that drinking alcohol is sinful?
February 6th, 2006 at 7:58 am
Holy spirit my ass…..geez. If I had some free time I certainly would not listen to another one of Franks sermons. I will however drink some more wine….ummmm
February 6th, 2006 at 12:30 pm
I’m glad you liked the sermon, WWJD, I’ll try to check it out.
I’m a bit sceptical about how “he uses scripture in a different way than you would normally apply it “. Usually we call that bull sh*t, but we’ll see.
No matter. I hope that you and your family stay inspired and go on to change the world.
Any luck on reading Hebrews 8 & 9?
February 6th, 2006 at 12:37 pm
fezzik
WWJD, I’m curious. Do you condone the drinking of alcohol? Because I believe you just mentioned that a container of water is unspiritual and a container of wine is spiritual. How do you reconcile that statement with CBC’s position that drinking alcohol is sinful?
This is why it is so hard it is so hard to talk to you guys. I dont mind having discussing but but please make sure that your making accurate , informed comments and it will make this much smoother.
Since your obviuosly not aware of the CBC stance on drinking i will inform you . CBC has never said that drinking is sinful.Again for the record,Cbc has never said that drinkink is sinful. CBC qoutes scripture when it says that its being a drunkard thats wrong. Frank has said on numerous occasions that he understands that the bible does not say you cannot drink.He just personaly chooses not to because he does not want to cause another person to justify their problem with alcohol if they have one.
WWJD
February 6th, 2006 at 1:11 pm
jp
chapter 8 and 9 refers to Moses covenant of laws and regulations.Abraham did not have a law covenant he had a covenant of blessing and fatherhood as stated in romans 9:8
In other words ,it is not the natural children who are Gods children, but it is the children of rhe promise who are regarded as Abrahams offspring .
The Moses covenant and Abrahamic are different . Thats what Heberws 6 and 7 are talking about. Abraham new Gods heart which oviously never changes . And if Abraham new Gods heart and was credited as being as righteous and blessed,we should follow that example. Not because it is a law,but because it is Gods heart.
Look at it this way, if your dad was financially prosperous wouldnt you want to follow his example and make the same good decisions he made.Well Abraham is our forfather as seen in scripture and this still apllies in new testament.So shouldnt we want to also follow his example .
As far as changing the world , i do have a love for all people and I hope that comes accross on this site . Christ had love for everyone and I am always trying to follow that example and hopefully encourage others to have and recieve that love . I dont think ill change this wicked world but if its just a few people ,Ill take that.
WWJD
February 6th, 2006 at 1:13 pm
WWJD, if CBC doesn’t believe that drinking is sinful, then why have CBC employees been fired for being seen at a bar? Why is it forbidden for PBC students over 21 to drink? Actions and policies speak louder than words. If you don’t agree, I would challenge you to mention you drink to anyone in CBC leadership and watch their reaction.
Your comment about being informed is a little ironic. I see that you never responded a few threads back concerning your assertion that the Bible never condoned slavery. Could it be that we all have our shortcomings at times?
February 6th, 2006 at 1:31 pm
WWJD,
How do you keep up with all this?
I think we may be arguing for the wrong reasons. Here is what I want to know:
1. Does CBC teach that God requires 10% of your gross income to be given to the church? (I don’t mean in a “you SHOULD give, because look how well it worked for Abraham” kind of way, but in a “you MUST give or God can not bless you” way.)
2. Do you believe that God requires 10% or do you think it’s a heart issue and 10% is as good a figure as any other?
I ask these questions because it seems like some of your posts indicate that 10% is a God mandated requirement, and some of your post sound like tithing is a heart issue.
February 6th, 2006 at 1:34 pm
fezzik
Once again,you have to be really carefull with what you post in order to have a discussion. my comment was how the bible encouraged us to tithe and it should be preached . Someeone said then why dont they preach on slavery. i didnt respond because its just common sense .Slavery was never something that was encouraged by Jesus,the disciples or any of the prophetes for that matter. Slavery is something that went on during that time and was condoned,it was not something that we were encouraged to do. As a matter of fact ,the jews were slaves once and God rescued them through Moses from slavery. I dont know how much bible knowledge you have but this seemed like a no bainer to me
WWJD
February 6th, 2006 at 1:38 pm
WWJD….did you major in rambling and babbling at college?
February 6th, 2006 at 1:52 pm
JP
Good question. I dont think it is a requirement as much as it is a heart issue and no,CBC does not require that you tithe in order to be blessed but they do say that your chanes are a lot greater that you will be blessed if you out your money into Gods hands.And the only way to do that is by tithing if we follow Abrahams example . Its a tricky thing to deal with tithing, because if you talk to a lot of people who do tithe for the right reason, most of the time they will tell you they are blessed in one way or another.But yet the new testement does not deal with this issue much. It does talk about how the fist churches in acts set aside a proportinate amount of money for the church which to me sounds like a tithe . And it does mention that we should still folllow Abrahams example. Nowhere in the new testament does it say not to tithe like they did under the old Moses covenant and laws. So for me,if the old testament taught that we should do it and the new testament did not say to stop and there are some scriptures that may still be talking about tithing or at the very least giving something,you hve to ask yourself which one has more support of doing or not doing. To me its in favor of tithing.
So yes, I do think it is a heart issue but it is the pastors job to bend our hearts towards God . If pastors didnt try to get to our hearts then no one would be saved because no ones heart would be touched . And thats a very impotant point,that regardless of wether its a command or a strong recommendation from God that we tithe, its impotant for the church to encourage and inspire us. On a side note,its been a long time since Frank has preached on tithing .
WWJD
February 6th, 2006 at 2:10 pm
WWJD, you can’t have your cake and eat it too. If you insist that tithing should be enforced while you brush away slavery because it’s “common sense”, then you have achieved a paradox. You cannot selectively pick and choose what Biblical concepts you follow while dismissng our reasoning for not following others or you’ve committed hypocrisy. Either both concepts are valid because they’re contained in the Bible, or they should be forced to stand alone on their own merits. Also, Abraham had slaves and God even exhorted him to circumcise those in his household that were ”bought with money from a foreigner” (Gen. 17:12), so if you are asserting that we should follow Abraham’s example then you should be ok with keeping slaves.
February 6th, 2006 at 2:32 pm
WWJD,
If you won’t listen to me, the least you could do is listen to Fezzik…the man talks sense in the clearest way imaginable. And, you could stand to read the book of Philemon whilst you’re at it (right in between Titus and Hebrews)….Paul wasn’t a disciple….he was an apostle (and you’re into that kind of thing, right?), and he not only condoned slavery with words, he condoned it with actions by sending Onesimus, a runaway slave who was a “brother in Christ”, back to his owner. It’s all right there in the book….so what exactly are you doing questioning someone else’s biblical knowledge?
Furthermore, I was under the impression that it was GOD’S job to convict people’s hearts, not any human’s. A pastor is a human (though, I daresay, one might never know that from the way that you’ve been expressing yourself….you seem to regard them as deities with skin), and last I checked, God is supposed to be omnipotent, omniscient, etc…..which would mean that God can do whatever God wants (including, but not limited to conviction) to whomever God wants. The end. So, what you said in your previous post sets a direct limit on God because of what appears to be a profound lack of faith on your part. Tithe, go for it, knock yourself out, but if you don’t even believe that God is big enough to reach people without a pastor’s direct intervention, I think it’s you that has the faith problem, not the people who don’t tithe.
I’ve read too much of what you’ve already written here to expect that you’ll listen to any of this….though I’d be truly thrilled if you’d surprise everyone on that point. As a closer, let me say this: people who disagree with something you believe with all your heart are not necessarily wrong, and if you can’t bear to listen to them and think through what they say, what you’re choosing to believe isn’t worth much to you.
February 6th, 2006 at 2:33 pm
Fezzik,
On the issue of being appointed by God, by questioning wether or not Pastor Frank is appointed by God, are you implying that he is not? And if that is what you are suggesting, then I am curious as to what you base that on? What are the standards that you use to judge wether or not someone is God appointed or man appointed? I am supprised that you even bring up the Catholic Priests and PF in the same comparrison. I think that that is a no brainer. This is a perfect time to look at their fruit. What fruit did those priests bare? Do you really see no fruit from PF’s ministry? If so, that too suprises me.
You mention the 5 flawed churches. I personally don’t believe that a perfect church exists at this point in time. All churches are run by people, and therefore no church is exempt from human error. I wonder, do you think that the church you go to now is without flaws? Actually, I am curiouse, if everyone on this site that is so “concerned” with the spiritual health of CBC, have you all found flawless churches else where? Does your pastor never say anything that makes you say, “What?” and raise your eyebrows? Do you never see anything that even remotely resembles corruption? What standards do you hold your own pastors to? Are they aware of how harshly they will be judged if they word something in a way that you deem unacceptable?
I also read Henry Digby’s comments on the blog. I never quite picked up on what it was exactly that was so wrong with CBC. He went on and on about how grieved he was over the supposed downfall of his beloved Bible Temple. But he wasn’t very specific on what he believed to be the problem.
What qualifies you to say that CBC has lost it’s first love? Is it because Pastor Frank gives the occasional tithing message? What church doesn’t? Or because the church does more than just sitting in our pews being fed and getting fat? We all love the Lord AND His church. We spend a lot of time worshiping God and learning about who He is and what we can do to bring honor to Him and glorify His name. You all talk about our “flashy programs”. So is it now considered corrupt to implement programs that help people and change peoples lives? Is that not what we are called to do as Christians? To show God’s love to others and minister to their needs? If that isn’t our calling, then I really do need help interpreting my Bible.
February 6th, 2006 at 2:47 pm
fezzik
My goodness. You sure are into this slavery thing.I regret to inform you of our 1787 constitution that prohibits slavery . Some of our christian brothers and sisters like Thomas Jefferson were the working so hard to abolish it. Slavery was a custom at that time and it has been abolished by our leaders and so it a mute point.Ttithing however was not abolished.
WWJD
February 6th, 2006 at 3:01 pm
WWJD…if only you could become a mute point. Maybe if I have enough faith, it’ll happen. Or maybe I just need to tithe more.
February 6th, 2006 at 3:39 pm
WWJD,
A few things:
The Constitution didn’t abolish slavery in 1787. Lincoln penned and delivered the Emancipation Proclamation in 1863, and the Constitution was amended later on.
Thomas Jefferson was neither what you’d really consider a brother in Christ (he was a card-carrying, Enlightenment-era deist, and is quite famous for having re-written the New Testament with all the miracles taken out…. ), nor was he working to end slavery. He was a farmer and a slave owner, and evidently rather enjoyed boinking his slaves (to put it crudely)
Slavery here is being used as an illustration. Like tithing, slavery is repeatedly mentioned throughout the Bible, and always in a neutral, if not downright positive light. If you can ignore the endorsement of slavery because of current cultural mores, you cannot hold up an argument that says that tithing is a necessary part of Christian life.
You are making yourself look excessively ignorant and foolish. Please, for your own sake, check your information on the internet if you are going to cite either the Bible or recognized and well-known historical facts.
February 6th, 2006 at 5:35 pm
jiminy
Its not that i dont listen to you i just havent heard you make any good points yet for me to respond to
WWJD
February 6th, 2006 at 6:28 pm
Advocate, you misunderstand my point. Brandon asserted that since PF has been pastor for a longish period of time, that meant he was God’s chosen. I used the Catholic reference to point out that length of service should not determine whether or not a leader is “called by God”. And I say that CBC has lost it’s first love because of its “run things like a business” mentality. I like to think of CBC in the same vein as the leadership’s favorite coffee chain, Starbucks……overpriced, overhyped, and fairly mediocre compared to other options. If Starbucks church works in your walk, more power to you. As for me, I am a Dutch Bros man…
WWJD, the points have been made for you time and time again. You dismiss or outright ignore any viewpoint counter to your own, and refuse to admit the glaring holes in your arguments. For example, Jesus would NEVER tell someone that “If pastors didnt try to get to our hearts then no one would be saved.” If you’re going to have the audacity to carry the moniker of “What would Jesus Do?”, at least try to live up to it.
February 7th, 2006 at 8:12 am
Ok, WWJD….now you’re either really being dense or you’re just trying to stir up shit. I don’t believe for one second that you don’t recognize that you’re outgunned on this issue, and I don’t believe that you don’t see that several people (myself included) have presented you with counter-points that demand a thoughtful response. You just refuse to acknowledge anything that doesn’t reinforce what you think. You don’t want to have an intelligent conversation….you just want to walk around in the world feeling right. That’s fine. That’s your right. I won’t pretend that the total lack of both intellectual curiosity and openmindedness you’ve demonstrated doesn’t annoy me, but it’s your right to live your life that way if you choose. I’m sorry for your sake. You’re selling yourself very, very short if the way you speak on this blog is the way you live your life. Maybe it’s not….maybe I’ve made a faulty assessment…..but, all the signs point toward you not wanting to hear reason.
You haven’t responded to direct factual and scriptural contradictions of your personal points, which says to me that you don’t respect fact or what you profess to believe is the word of God. Either that, or you’re just scared. This situation is really quite cut and dried — you can’t pretend to not understand that you’ve been discredited because what has been said against you is too overwhelming and too clear. Like Noah, your nakedness is showing….please, do yourself a favor and cover it up.
February 7th, 2006 at 5:54 pm
Fezzik said:
“I also read Henry Digby’s comments on the blog. I never quite picked up on what it was exactly that was so wrong with CBC. He went on and on about how grieved he was over the supposed downfall of his beloved Bible Temple. But he wasn’t very specific on what he believed to be the problem.”
Following is my attempted response to him:
There are several principles that were foundational for the former Bible Temple.
1. Bible Temple was under the oversight of multiple leadership as opposed to “one man” rule. Even the pastor was under oversight, from the elders, and the elders themselves were under oversight from the pastor.
2. All public activities of the church were bathed in prayer. Every service was preceded by half-an-hour of prayer. This prayer time was considered to be an essential part of the service. If you considered yourself to be a member of the congregation, you were expected to take your part in the pre-service prayer—not just show up for the rest of the service.
3. A major emphasis at Bible Temple was placed on worship as opposed to preaching by itself. Such importance was given to the worship that audio tapes of the services included both the worship and the message. Worship was felt to be a ministry offered up to the Lord by the congregation in an audible worship and adoration of Him, extolling His attributes and character and focusing on Him. This frequently seemed to provoke a response from Him in such a way that He would manifest His Presence among us in a way I really am at a loss of words to describe! I cannot speak for others, however, I often imagined I could feel Him there with us, although I could not physically see Him. It was almost as though He was there walking up and down the aisles as we worshipped, blending His Presence with our worship—us responding to Him and He responding to us! Occasionally, there would be a lull in the audible worship, however, we could still feel Him there with us like a kind of sacred “hovering” over us while we sat there in His Presence in silence.
4. Bible Temple held high importance to unity of the congregation in worship as opposed to a “do your own thing” style. For the most part, the congregation of Bible Temple worshipped together, clapped together, danced together, raised their hands together, stood together, sat down together, prayed together, mourned together, rejoiced together, and obeyed and served together.
5. The gifts of the Holy Spirit were welcomed flowing through the “ordinary” members of the congregation and not just through the leadership. All members of the congregation, whether or not they were involved in “leadership” per se, were considered to be important for the healthy functioning of the Body of Christ at Bible Temple. In the beginning, nobody had to go get elder approval before they were allowed to contribute in the functioning of the body, as long as they were known to be a faithful member of the body.
6. Lastly, something that was not present in the beginning was that spirit of control that showed up in later years. It is hard for me to believe this is how the Lord deals with His people! Where the leadership expects conformity to their ideas and a type of spiritual “political correctness” begins to be manifest. When this began to happen, if you did not go along with the leadership, you began to find yourself on some kind of “blacklist” and you began to sense that you were considered to be “insubordinate”. You began to find yourself treated as some kind of second-class member that didn’t quite measure up to the spiritually elite who were the leadership. I believe this is partly what the Lord was talking about when He referred to the Nicolaitans—a conquering of the people, a suppression of the people, perhaps a dividing of the congregation into the first class members and the second class members, the elite ones and the ordinary ones, the “clergy” and the “laity”!
I could be wrong, but it does not seem to me that CBC measures up to the former Bible Temple in this regard. The former Bible Temple was known and admired because of the fervency and sincerity of their worship and love for their Lord; the present CBC is known and admired worldwide for their books, publications, and teaching resources as well as their work among the community in the geographical area where the church is located.
I ask that I be forgiven for my inadequate choice of words in trying to describe my thoughts in this commentary! I have written this hastily, off the top of my head so to speak. To me, the Church of Jesus Christ ultimately exists for relationship and fellowship with Him. Good deeds are important and should be done, but the focus should be Him! It is wonderful to be receiving His blessings but, again, the focus should be Him! We should be seeking Him for His own sake, not primarily for His blessings. And this was the slight problem that the Ephesian Church was encountering—they were doing the good works and perhaps receiving blessings from Him, but they had lost their focus—their first love for Him. And the Laodicean Church had advanced to another level, becoming lukewarm, proud of themselves and not focused on their Lord at all. At that point, the Lord was almost becoming sick to His stomach, so to speak, ready to spew them out of His mouth (the Greek word for spew is “vomit”—look it up!).
If I am wrong, please forgive me for my misjudgements and pray for me. I love the Lord with all my heart and de