WELL & GRACE
Posted on March 3rd, 2006 by Reformed Pope into the Why We Blog categoryI recently had my friend One Love over for dinner and we spent a lot of time talking about CBC and why I blog. He made the comment that in business if a customer ever takes the time to write a letter to complain then you KNOW something went wrong. So what happened to me to make me want to spend so much time writing letters to the CBC complaint department (they don’t have one so this blog is filling in)?
I’ve done some soul searching and have found that there were definite "hurts" in the past. These so called hurts turned into anger, which led to bitterness, which eventually became depression. After a couple of years I realized that the only person I was hurting was me. The church, the pastors, the people…none of them were affected by my anger, the only one hurting was me. Once I figured that out, I realized that I needed to get past the anger and bitterness and move on. I did.
So where does that leave me?
I have forgiven but not forgotten. I don’t see how I can. You call that bitterness, I call it…well… I call it wising up and finding a new place to grow.
So where does that bring me?
This brings me to a place of grace… A place of grace.
3 years ago, grace didn’t mean that much to me. I understood it to be something that God had for sinners (and by "sinners" I of course meant "people who didn’t call themselves Christians"). Now I see grace as the foundation of my daily life. It’s really what allows me to be a follower of Christ.
Coincidently, I also now see myself as a sinner, and let me tell you how refreshing that is. Once I was able to give up my attempts to be perfect, I was able to begin building a relationship with a God who loved me for who I was and not for whom I was trying to be. God didn’t change, my perspective of God changed, and I needed that to fully understand salvation.
So, right now you’re thinking ‘That’s great Johnpaul, but isn’t this blog supposed to be funny? And what does all this have to do with why you blog?
Allow me to tell a long story that illustrates my problems with CBC.
While @ CBC I found out a certain "leader" of mine had been having an affair for the past year. I’ll skip the details, but when I talked with him about it, he didn’t seem upset that he had cheated on his wife, but seemed more embarrassed by the fact that it had been with an unattractive woman (in my opinion).
On the flip side, when I talked with the non-Christian woman that he had had the affair with she started crying, and instantly started apologizing to ME. She told me that she hadn’t been able to sleep at night, and that she felt so badly for what she had done to his family. She was going crazy and didn’t know what to do.
My wife and I were told by CBC leadership that we were not to talk to ANYONE about this. They said that they wanted to "protect" this family and the less people knew about it the better.
Here we have a situation where the Christian man who should have the answer (grace) was caught up with not wanting to appear weak. He couldn’t apologize to anyone he was "leading", because the church feels it is more important to protect your image than it is to rectify a wrong (I think they call that UNITY). At the same time there is a woman who doesn’t have any clue what to do, she is crying out for help and there isn’t any coming. It’s awfully hard to tell someone about the grace of Christ when they’ve been screwing around with the "preacher".
You see, this was a perfect opportunity for the power of God’s grace to be shown. He could have stood up and said "Guys, I blew it, but thank God for the Cross." He could have made it a true testimony of God’s love and forgiveness, but instead he tried to sweep it under the rug (on the advise from CBC elders).
Let me tell another story.
My wife and I are at The Well Church; we’ve only been there for a couple of weeks and Erik, the head pastor gets up to tell us that he had to go down to California to dissolve a church that had been planted out of The Well (embarrassing right?).
As it turns out, this pastor, in California, also had an affair. When Eric went down for the final service he said it was one of the most powerful meetings he had ever been in. The pastor got up in front of the congregation, told everyone what he had done, asked for their forgiveness, and thanked God for His grace.
How powerful is that testimony?
I know I’m your pastor, but I screwed up. I’m not perfect. God still loves me as much today as he did yesterday, and when you screw up He’ll treat you the same.
Wow. Tell me you don’t want to know a God who loves us regardless of what we do? A God who doesn’t care how much money you have, what kind of car you drive or where you work.
I used to believe (and I never would admit this because I had been taught all the right responses, but this is what I really thought) that God died on the cross to save sinners and once those sinners were saved they needed to live a perfect life. Now…I realized that no one could live a perfect life, but the goal was to keep all your sins down to the little things. Anger, greed, gossip, dishonesty, you know the things that we can all smile and justify.
I now see that we are all sinners. I’m no less a sinner now then I was before I knew Jesus (remember, it only takes one sin to be a sinner), And every day I rely on the Grace of God. I’ve written another song to help illustrate God’s love: Sung to the tune "Jesus loves the little children"
Jesus loves the alcoholic,
the drug addict, and the queer.
Red and Christian, black and GAY
Jesus loves them all the same
Jesus loves the little sinners of the world.
This is why I blog. I don’t really care how much City Bible Church teaches on giving. I don’t really care that they want nine campuses. I don’t really care that Frank "wants to see more Mercedes and BMW’s parked in their lot". What I really care about is that I never once heard the truth behind the "Gospel of Jesus". I was always taught that the Cross was for the unsaved, and that’s why I’m upset.
This story is only one example of many that show how mixed up Christianity can really be. Whether it’s the Youth Pastor who thinks it’s good to lie about the first time he kissed his wife or the Elder who claims his biggest problem is "Vanilla Ice Cream" (I’ll save that story for later), if you put your image above all else, you are destroying the message of Christ.
Which is, simply put:
WE NEED HIM, BECAUSE WE ALL SCREW UP AND NONE OF US COULD MAKE IT TO HEAVEN WITHOUT HIM.
Ok, at this point only my mother and the guy who had the affair are still reading, so I’ll end by giving you an updated version of THE TWO QUESTION TEST.
Do you want to find out if you are going to heaven when you die? Answer these two questions and see:
Question 1: What is the "Gospel of Jesus Christ"?
Question 2: Why do you believe this?
March 3rd, 2006 at 2:05 pm
John Paul,
I usually just read and don’t ever comment but I feel that this was worth at least a Thank You.
So Thank You! Keep up the good work and Thanks for providing people a place to vent.
March 3rd, 2006 at 2:10 pm
Thank you so much for sharing! A lot of it really resonates with me. I appreciate your honesty.
And in regards to forgiving but not forgetting, you’re right on target about it. Just because you forgive someone, doesn’t mean you’re required to trust them again completely right off the bat. Not trusting them shouldn’t be equated with bitterness. Once trust has been broken, especially in leadership, it takes time for it to be rebuilt again. I think people tend to forget that.
March 3rd, 2006 at 2:14 pm
I too grew up in church with both of my parents deeply involved in the ministry; however, I was luckily saved from a lot of the disillusionment that a lot of “church kids” grow up and experience thanks to my parents. My parents didn’t rely on church to raise us but instead we learned about the gospel and what God’s love and grace was all about at home. Of course we still attended church whenever there was a service or function going on, but having that foundation at home helped me avoid a lot of the confusion and disappointment in leadership as I grew up and realized that pastors, elders and youth pastors were real people too.
Because of my upbringing, I didn’t necessarily have a hard time with the CBC issues. It wasn’t until I got married (to a non CBCer!!!) that I realized our church wasn’t necessarily serving its purpose for newcomers and new believers. It was practically a sin just to date someone who wasn’t part of our group; I even recall the first time I brought my husband to church my pastor pulling me aside to find out what kind of spiritual leader he was going to be. This was only like our third date ever… what an absurd question!
Once we got married my husband and I chose to start our lives in a different church where we could start over together and not be so “entangled” in the CBC culture. It wasn’t until we found our church that we actually began to serve the Lord TOGETHER instead of just going through the motions on Sundays.
I say all of that to say this… for any of you bloggers who are parents, please remember that it’s not the church’s responsibility to raise your children! There are so many parents who think that their Christian Schools, Youth Groups and Churches are going to teach their children how to follow God. That’s just not the case as all of us bloggers know, there are no perfect churches. Lets all take responsibility and not give our pastors, elders and youth leaders the power to control our own personal walks with Christ. They’re supposed to be there for counsel and encouragement, not to tell you what to do - that’s your job!
I hope I didn’t bore you…
March 3rd, 2006 at 2:28 pm
Question 1. The gospel of Jesus Christ is that:
1) We (every human being past, present, and future) are sinful and do not have a relationship with God. We are “born” sinful, and nothing we can do will fix the problem of being separated from God.
2) Jesus Christ died, in our place as a SUBSTITUTE for our own sin, so that we could CLAIM HIS DEATH as our own. Thus, once we claim that substitutionary death.. our relationship with God is immediately restored. From that moment forward, our spirit receives the breath of life, we are “reborn”, and we now have a relationship with God.
The rest of superfluous.
Question 2. For me, it’s a matter of physics and cosmology. (Study of astronomy.) My research has led me to believe that, statistically, there is a very very very very small probability that there is no God. This is a believe based 100% squarely on modern science, a whole lot of research (I hate math!!), and understanding how probability and statistics work.
Thus, if there is a god.. then which god? Every religion preaches and espouses a god. Once I understood that there “is” a god.. I knew I needed to find out which one was “right”.
I started by throwing out *everything* I was taught to believe as “truth”, and basically opening up my mind, analytically, to all religions.
I began to research the theological side of things. I studied all the major religions and put them to the litmus tests I developed. What does their texts say? Does EVERYTHING in their texts fit with science? Is there a rational argument for it? Either a direct explanation or a paradox? Or does it require belief in fairies to believe in that religion?
One by one, I found major flaws with every religion. Except one.
That one was the bible. There is not one thing in the biblike that can not be explained, proven or conceptually understood. Go ahead and ask me.
Thus.. I believe the bible to be the one true religion. From there.. I grasped what it teaches at its core. The fundamental summary of the entire collection of books is the gospel of Christ, which I described succinctly in my answer to question 1 above.
So that’s it. That’s why I believe. No magic pixy dust. No hocus pocus, shaking/laughing/yelling or peeing in the spirit. Nothing more then pure science and a mind-numbing intellectual trail to what I feel is the obvious conclusion.
Those that don’t believe science AND religion can co-exist are missing a few things. To me, it is impossible for them to not exist together. Faith without REASON is Santa Claus. Reason without FAITH is self-delusion.
I don’t see this blog as becoming a “faith and reason” discussion forum, but if anyone would like to discuss the science behind WHY you believe or WHAT you believe.. feel free to email me. Some of it is pretty fascinating. Go ahead and ask me to explain how the trinity doesn’t have to be a magical mystery any more. Or how one second on the cross is enough for all eternity of every soul? Or how god can “hear” every prayer at once for every person in existance? Or how can god know everything, be everywhere, etc. All these things have explainations, rational ones, based in science that we can touch, feel, and understand today.
:)
That’s how I know what I know.
March 3rd, 2006 at 3:00 pm
RP,
I think that is the best thing I have read on this blog ever. It’s so ironic that if someone in the congregation sins, they have to go repent in front of everyone, but if a leader sins, well just hush it up.
I found that at my former church as well.
Re: grace, I like the Martin Luther quote that says, “If you’re going to sin, SIN BOLDLY.”
One of our “generation” that I have the utmost respect for is Josh Harris. Because regardless of what you think of his view on dating, he is the MOST gut-level honest pastor I have ever read or heard. His book Not Even a Hint came out right when he was beginning to transition from Executive Pastor to Senior Pastor of CJ Mahaney’s congregation. His opening of that book speaks to his struggle with lust in high school.
Talk about humble, and gutsy.
I think every church is messed up because we are all messed up to the core. I think the world is more forgiving and comforting and understanding and accepting of everyone because the world knows they’re messed up. Christians are so busy hiding from each other that they forget that we’re all messed up too.
I don’t want to ever be close enough to leadership in any church to see the “junk” again though.
KM
March 3rd, 2006 at 3:06 pm
John-Paul,
That was probably the best post I’ve read on this blog (not the funniest, but the best). It’s nice to fully see where you are coming from and where you are going. Keep up the blogging…it’s good entertainment (most of the time).
Jared
March 3rd, 2006 at 3:17 pm
see, now that’s what i am talking about, glad to see the focus is back to uplifting not distroying! always with a little humor, of course.
March 3rd, 2006 at 4:02 pm
FANTASTIC POST, JP! STANDING OVATION!
As a former BT/PBC/CBC’er, I know EXACTLY where you are coming from and what you are talking about.
When will Christians learn that none of us are called to be perfect? We are told to STRIVE for perfection, but we’ll never make it. We have to learn to treasure the journey and the fight, and know that the goal will be achieved in Heaven! And also learn the sooner we accept our sinfulness (not that we would sin all the more, no!) the better off we’ll be.
My own story actually resulted in an anxiety disorder, as I became so overwhelming consumed with hiding my sinfulness and trying to be “perfect” that one day I found myself face down on my floor begging God that if this was how my life was going to be than I’d rather be dead! I prayed, fasted, went down for prayer (at CBC no less) and did every “spiritual” thing I could to overcome it. No luck! It was only through a little chemical help, a LOT of deprogramming (learning to accept myself for who I am and who God created me to be), and a sprinkling of counseling that I have been able to overcome it.
Kudos for the excellent post. I don’t always agree with everything that goes down around here, but this was an exceptional post!
Christians thinking they can be perfect….not that’s funny!
“Peeing in the Spirit”….freaking hilarious!
March 3rd, 2006 at 7:22 pm
True.. best one I’ve ever read, ever. I agree.
Oh and yeah, science and religion go together for sure. Isaac Newton even said so. He also said that the end of the world is in 2060. It sounds about right to me, actually.
March 3rd, 2006 at 9:44 pm
JP
I was looking forward to hanging out tommorrow but maybe next weekend. It was refreshing to read your post. I understand where your coming from in regards to how that incident was handled but he did suffer for what happened . Besides being taken out of leadership he was spiritually and emotionally down and it took the help of some very good friends to help repair the hurts in him and his wife. I had to deal with it as well and it was in realizing that I had to give the same grace to others that is given to me . I still love him and all my other christian brothers .None of us are perfect and we need to encourage and forgive each other always .
Stay real
Gabe
March 4th, 2006 at 8:41 am
Loved reading about your background and experience, RP. Hope you will share more in the future.
One of the things that puzzles me about the modern ‘church’, is the common practice of ’silencing the lambs’. People sitting in pews, staring at the back of the head of the guy in front of him - and listening only to the pastor, and his hand-picked yes-men (and women). One of the reasons cited for not letting people speak freely in front of the church, is preventing error / untruth from being spoken. And so people file in and file out to hear a tightly controlled, well rehearsed, religious presentation.
But what of what is lately called “relational Christianity”? Of actually sitting down to sup with your brothers and sisters, looking one another in the face, and partaking not only of good food, but also of that portion of Christ that is deposited in each of us? Oh the wonderful spiritual food and encouragement that can be had by feasting in fellowship upon the portion of Christ in each of us … what a smorgasboard it can be.
If however we just stare at the backs of heads, and hear only the paid professionals was religious, how is the portion of Christ expressed? More importantly, how are the wounds, and weeds that reside in each of us, expressed that the Body of Christ might identify them and apply healing salve, or pluck up those weeds and throw them on the fire?
How many of us carry those hurts and weeds for a lifetime, because we have no outlet for expressing them, whereby they might be healed?
Having church is relationship - what Jude calls a “love feast” - bearing one anothers burdens - loving one another - listening - loving with actions, and not just hollow words.
Hurting ones, and those who are searching, might benefit from reading about ‘Relational Christianity’ - I would recommend the writings of a brother - Wayne Jacobsen - who has a delightful web site at http://www.lifestream.org/ … I discovered him a few years ago, through a paper he wrote called “So You Don’t Go To Church Anymore” - a non-threatening discussion of the difference between institutionalism, and just being the sons and daughters of God (and brothers and sisters) that we are called to be.
March 4th, 2006 at 9:21 am
I’ve been visiting this site for months and can honestly say this is the most powerful post this blog has seen.
Folks, religion is alive and well and living in each of us, but it is the GRACE of God that delivers us and shows us who the REAL Jesus is.
I was always afraid of God–afraid that I didn’t measure up, afraid that he was waiting with a sledge hammer for me to screw up, afraid to get close to an angry God. I am so grateful to Him for never giving up on me…for pushing past all my fears and showing me who He really is. Now instead of running from him when I screw up, I run to him because I know he is the ONLY safe place for my heart.
There have been times when I’ve been uncomfortable reading this blog…times when I wondered if lines hadn’t been crossed (mostly by the commenters) but I keep coming back because through reading about the various experiences, it exposes the religion that still lives in me. All the talk about tithing showed me that I have often given out of fear, not love. Fear that I wouldn’t be blessed…fear of calamity if I “came out from the umbrella of blessing.” Geesh….is my God full of grace or isn’t He? Does He understand my frailty and love me anyway, or doesn’t He?
I’m not bitter against anybody because I now understand that most of them were sincere in what they believed–just as I was–and because I understand that they are still prisoners to those beliefs, yet unaware. I, on the other hand, am free and so I rejoice and give God the praise and hope that they will know the freedom and love and glorious grace of the God I serve.
March 4th, 2006 at 10:24 am
Ooops! I misspoke! Wayne Jacobsen’s paper is:
“Why I Don’t Go To Church Anymore”, at http://www.lifestream.org/LSBL.May01.html
It was Jake Colson who wrote “So You Don’t Go To Church Anymore”,
a new book that I haven’t read.
March 4th, 2006 at 12:48 pm
JP, that was an amazingly honest blog. Thank you so much for sharing it. It’s funny how CBCers automatically know whose sins should be hidden and whose should be “confessed” from the pulpit. Like, say, if someone gets pregnant before they get married, and at GenChurch have to get up and tell how sorry they are while everyone nods sympathetically. That was really fun to watch.
When I got pregnant, and my husband was not my husband but my fiance, I still thought that was what was supposed to happen. I wanted people to know - they were going to figure it out eventually - and I was more than willing to sacrifice myself upon the altar of public opinion because that’s what I had seen practiced time and again. But an amazing thing happened. My pastor (obviously not Frank) told us that he wanted to cover us, that as the pastor he wanted to let the church family know what was going on and how they could help. It was then that I realized what being a part of a church family was really about. And it really made me wonder - what would have happened if we had been at CBC instead of this church? Would our sin have been exposed or swept under the carpet? I’m really not sure. I know that there are people in leadership at CBC, Doug and Donna included, who loved me and would have done what they thought was best. But I also think that their ideas of “what’s best” have been compromised by an imbalance between grace and the rules. I hope they are able to find a balance one day.
I also really loved what you had to say about what your idea of Christianity was before you left CBC as opposed to now. It’s hard to explain to people who have never experienced that epiphany. I hope more people start to get it.
March 4th, 2006 at 3:09 pm
John444,
I spent spent a few hours and read the online version of the Jake Colson book you accidently mentioned.
I must say, it’s very powerful. I highly recommend reading it, to anyone who is struggling with the concept of “church”.
http://www.jakecolsen.com/jakefront.html
Thanks for the link!
March 4th, 2006 at 4:27 pm
JOHN PAUL,
I understand why you feel the need to blog and make your focus about CBC. That night after dinner when I rode home I thought alot about what we talked about. We had mentioned some things that happend to you while you were growing up at CBC that still has a profound affect on you. We had also mentioned that it would be very interesting to see what would happen at the meeting of a certain recent controversial blogger and CBC. If I recall, an apology to _____ would mean alot and also might be considered as an apology for the hurt you feel.
Does our LORD have the ability to take away the hurt? Does HE have the power to heal old wounds? And when these wounds are healed, how then do we continue to carry out the Great Comission. When does it all end? When will your pound of flesh be weighed? A warning. It is very easy to believe that a person is doing God’s work, only later in life to discover that the Enemy was influencing you. It’s happend to me. Be very careful. Emotions are a funny thing. They can be used by both camps. Sometimes for good. Sometimes for evil. All I’m saying is be very mindful of what you write and were in your spirit are your words coming from.
Although we don’t agree on everything, you are still my brother. I have much love for you and your family. All I ask is just be careful. Remember what we said that night. If you were to place a frog in a pot of water and slowly turned the heat up it would boil itself to death. A pretty painful way to die. The Enemy does the same thing. He will use the way you feel and slowly, ever so slighty turn the heat up. HE knows what he is doing. It started in the Garden and continues on today. The grass is tall and there are snakes everywhere.Watch your step!
ONE LOVE.
P.S. I know what your name means. Brown mushsy stuff that falls……..
March 4th, 2006 at 5:49 pm
why is any sex a sin?
March 4th, 2006 at 6:01 pm
AmazingGrace9:21-
Folks, religion is alive and well and living in each of us, but it is the GRACE of God that delivers us and shows us who the REAL Jesus is.
Who agrees that this is a retarded statement? And by retarded, I mean, the short bus kids.
Great post JP
Please don’t silence me or send me to the gulags for my latest comments.
March 4th, 2006 at 6:49 pm
I agree with Amazing Gracen and I don’t think it is retarded at all.
March 4th, 2006 at 11:56 pm
Dear James,
City Bible Church is the pot with the boiling water, some of us bloggers are the frogs that figured out where the self centered teachings were leading us, and jumped out of the pot.
It would be safe to say if you embrace the watered down, luke warm message at City Bible you are still in the pot.
I agree with you, the grass is tall and there are snakes everywhere.
Watch your step.
March 5th, 2006 at 8:34 am
Hi, I’m new here… I was born into the CBC world before it was CBC, went to TCS for 8 years, and TCHS for one. It was by God’s grace that I was kicked out of TCHS my freshman year. I have learned so much of the truth since then. I was never one that “fit in” well… I came to find out that it wasn’t because I was not a believer. It was because I was a TRUE believer and my genuinness was unshakeable. I bodly demanded that the leadership explain their motives…and they called me rebellious. I too, however, was caught up in the notion that I was a Christian and not a sinner.
You are so right. It took some time for me after CBC, but as soon as I realized that I too was on equal standings with everyone else…that I was a sinner…I was able to truly repent before God. I was taught that once you ask for forgiveness you are no longer a sinner. That is dangerous! “For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God” Christians are like alchoholics. Former alchoholics NEVER claim to not be one. They maintain sobriety because they KNOW their weekness. I choose not to go where I am most tempted, because I am a sinner…and it is too much of a risk right now. If I call myself perfect I set myself up for a fall…I stop fighting the good fight. Not anymore…I am a sinner too! and I must fight myself daily until I am completely transformed by God. God is not finished with me yet!
March 5th, 2006 at 8:46 am
My comment might be to far in the past to be relevent but I will let you
decide. This stuff has been going on even before Frank. I quit PBC in the early ’80’s because of the imbalance of who to expose and who to protect.
Here are the two scenarios I faced as a Junior:
1. CBC had “restored” a pastor that had multiple affairs with women at his previous church assignment. They brought him back to CBC and eventually made him an elder and later they let him become the pastor of an up and coming, young church. This was my home church and CBC decided not to reveal that he had these affairs. They trusted their recommendation.
He did it again and devastated a whole county.
2. My roommate, best friend and later my best man at my wedding couldn’t get his life under control. He broke every PBC rule you could imagine. Finally he wanted to get it right and get some help. He went to the leaders and confessed and asked for help. He also quit school because he knew he was a mess.
PBC decided they needed to protect the reputation of PBC. So even though he had quit school and noone new he had done these things they publicly expelled him and revealed what he had said to the student body at chapel.
He was devestated, embarrased and was shunned by everyone.
I can tell you of at least three other times that CBC was brought into another churches elders meeting to help during a crisis and advised them to help cover their pastor’s affairs or serious sin.
March 5th, 2006 at 12:32 pm
Justin and JP,
I fully support your ruling to review each post b4 it is published. I think it show alot guts to stand up and say “I know we have done things around here for a long time but things have gotten out of hand and therefore we are changing the rules.” I will continue to monitor the blog and throw in my 2 cents whenever I see fit.
JP Good post, I am very familure with the leardership story you told, In fact I agree 100% with you. When I found out he had been having an affair I was disgusted with a lot of people. The church made him our leader and endorsed him to guide our new marriages mean while the guy is telling us how much he loves his wife while he is cheating on her. None of us got so much as an Apology or at least an explination. When Amber and I got Pregnant we had to stand up in front of Gen Church and tell everyone what we had done. Why they chose to protect him still confuses me. So much for Grace huh. Oh and then after I admitted to my family and friends that I had been using drugs and went into treatment, no one came running to protect me and my family, if they had I would not have allowed it. In fact I did not feel forgiven until I knew that others I had lied to at least got a chance to hear the truth.
I have been confused many times as to what we are supposed to do in these kind of situations and it seems to me that the bible gives the clearest plan for sin. There is nothing in the bible about sweeping it under the carpet. In fact it says that our sin will be exposed no matter how hard we try to hide it. I really feel like I can relate better to people who are not affraid to stand up and say “I am a sinner, I know I am not perfect but Jesus blood washed away my sins and by his grace I am saved, his blood has made me clean.”
Every night before I put my 2 sons to bed I pray with them, When I was teaching them how to pray I had to explain that we need to tell God what we are thankful for and as I put the words in their mouths when they were learning, I made sure they understood that Jesus Died on the cross for our sins. Every night when we pray we tell Jesus all the things we are greatful for and the cross is always the first thing we mention. Each and every day we make mistakes. No one of us is perfect but 2000 years ago when Jesus died on the cross he made each of perfect before God. No one can say ” I am perfect, or I have lived a perfect life since I was saved.” To God we are all sinful, JP thank you for sharing that post. I too believe it is important to remember where we came from, if we forget how we started we just might forget where we are going.
Thank you for reading…..
Master Story Teller
March 5th, 2006 at 6:46 pm
garland of roses 8:34
“I am a sinner too! and I must fight myself daily until I am completely transformed by God. God is not finished with me yet!”
Im sorry that you have so much guilt for being human. God created us in his image and we are all sinners. Why get on youself for being human. Again… Im sorry your life is so full of endless guilt.
March 5th, 2006 at 8:29 pm
I can appreciate your viewpoint, and even perhaps the sarcasm intended here. However, I think you may be confusing two issues here. By your previous question, you asked why people thought sex was a sin. You take it a step further by saying recognizing yourself as a sinful being is a confused state of mind and unecessary.
First, God created sex. He also gave us guidelines on how to enjoy it and how it’s intended to be used in marriage. He even included an entire book of the Bible dedicated to romantic love and the celebration of sexuality (although most proper Christians dismiss it or “spiritualize” the content). No one here said sex in itself is a sin. Sex is part of being human. And here’s a mind-blowing question for bonus points: If we are created in His image, is there a part of God reflected in our sexuality?
Second, if you disagree that sex outside of marriage is not a sin, then I guess this discussion is over and we’ll have to agree to disagree.
Third, all sins are equal in that they all prevent us from a relationship with God. No sin is really more terrible than another in terms of our salvation. Black is black and no amount of rationalization makes it grey. That’s the amazing part about God’s Grace - it works no matter what we’ve done. He took it all upon Himself on the Cross in order to restore us to Him. Even after we enter into that Grace, we are not yet free from this mortal body corrupted with sin. We need that Grace every day, whether we lie, cheat, steal, gossip, or commit adultery. No Believer is exempt from needing that Grace. My sinful nature is a terrible and regrettable part of my mortality, and I will not be freed from sin until I part with this body. In the meantime, I find hope in the words of Romans 5 “There is no condemnation (guilt) for those who are in Christ”. Until you can mentally grasp and appreciate the wonderful and terrible dichotomy of our current state and God’s grace you will never understand what it means to be a Believer. I know I am loved by God, but even more amazing I love Him because I understand what He’s done for me, and what He does for me every day every time I need more Grace.
Guilt? Foggeddaboudit!
March 5th, 2006 at 11:11 pm
A pastor was once asked, “What is the Gospel?” His reply, “Well, you know, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.” The pastor had confused the four gospels with the Gospel. What is the difference? The four gospels are the inspired accounts of the life and ministry of Jesus Christ, but they are not the Gospel. The Gospel is the message Jesus brought when He was here on the earth.
The Gospel Jesus preached was not a message about His person. He did not go about Galilee and Judea relating all the things He had done. Rather, He proclaimed a specific message from God the Father.
Many have been led to believe that the Gospel is a message about what Christ did when He was here on the earth. As a result they believe in Christ, but they do not really believe what He taught. The fact is: Many do not know what Jesus taught.
The word “gospel” comes from the Old English word “godspell,” which meant “good news,” or “announcement of glad tidings.” The word “gospel” in the New Testament is translated from the Greek word euaggelion. Our English word “evangelism” is also translated from euaggelion, which means “to preach the gospel.” Jesus mentioned the Kingdom of God many times during His public ministry.
About twenty years after the death and resurrection of Christ, the Apostle Paul warned the Galatians: “I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ” (Gal. 1:6–7). What was taking place is that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was being changed to a gospel about Christ, and His message was lost in the confusion.
Today, many people do not know what the Gospel is. Rather, they believe a different gospel. They have lost sight of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God. When Jesus began His ministry He made it clear that to be saved it was necessary to believe the Gospel. His words were: “. . . The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel” (Mark 1:15). His parting words of instruction to His apostles were: “. . . Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned” (Mark 16:15–16). The apostles were commissioned to preach the Gospel. This Gospel was not a message about the Person of Christ; it was the message about the coming Kingdom of God.
There are not many gospels; there is only one true gospel—the Gospel of the Kingdom of God! This was the message that was consistently taught by Christ, by the apostles and New Testament evangelists (Acts 8:12), and by the Apostle Paul.
March 5th, 2006 at 11:35 pm
Why I believe this: I believe what the Bible teaches in context. If a person claims to be Christian, than their beliefs will line up Biblically. Many groups that claim to be Christian twist the Scriptures to their own liking and in many circumstances are taught only to believe what their organization teaches, even if it does not line up with the Bible. At the heart of the gospel message are the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.The gospel is especially good news, because its message is universal. I believe it because it is the truth. So, how do I know it is the truth? I believe it by faith. Here is how I came to this belief (this happened over many years):
As a child, I “knew” there was a God. My parents and those at Bible Temple told me there was a God who watched over me. So I believed it, with simple faith, as children do. As I got older, I began to question things. I wanted Him to show Himself to me. He has.
First, does God exist? I say without a doubt he exists. The fact that I am able to ask the question at all, proves to me that there is a God. Animals don’t think, aren’t self aware, but people are. How did we get this way, and not them? Evolution explains everything as evolving to its present state over millions of years. This doesn’t make sense at all. How did the complete symbiotic relationship between plants and animals “evolve”? Without one, you couldn’t have the other. Did this happen by chance? If things evolved, how did “nature” decide that a certain animal needed eyes. How did an eye evolve? I can’t comprehend any of this happening via evolution, or via mutations, or anything else like that. Also, the age old question, which came first, the chicken or the egg? An egg can’t just appear out of nothing, it has to be laid by something. Yet, a chicken can’t just appear out of nothing, it has to hatch from an egg.
There is only one logical solution to all of these problems. Someone, or something, intelligent had to create it all. Though evolution is taught as “fact” these days, it is still just a theory, and is far from proven. Believe it if you want to, but it takes as much a leap of faith to believe that, as it does to believe in God. In my mind they are mutually exclusive.
This is how I came to believe in God. I love nature, and everything I could see in nature screamed out to me (not literally) that it was part of an intelligent design, and not just result of millions of years of random changes and evolution. So, I came to believe that God indeed was real.
Even though I was young, I was fascinated by subjects such as history and Archaeology. They were over ran with evolutionary teachings, and I notice today that almost without exception, most of them have been ruled out and replaced with newer theories about the origins of life, and the universe, and so forth. In other words, the “accepted” theories were discarded for new ones, which are now in vogue, but will probably disappear within a decade or two.
The sad thing is, those theories in the 70’s and 80’s were being taught as “fact”, yet now are dismissed by scientists. Hmm, yet these same scientists today tell us that the current theories are “fact”. This very “evolution” of though on evolution and cosmology (the origin of the universe) has convinced me even more that God is the answer. So, my own logic, and my own study of history convinced me that there was a God and that He loves me enough to have sent His Son to die for me. That is all that matters.
March 6th, 2006 at 8:08 am
And this is where Christians have to take responsibility for their own action. Why was your friend shunned? That’s not the leaders fault. That’s the PBC students fault. They didn’t have to shun him.
March 6th, 2006 at 8:37 am
Shunning sinners / those who are different is a common response.
Are we taught to shun?
Or is shunning the natural response of people who are serving the gods of conformity and fear?
March 6th, 2006 at 8:57 am
“Im sorry that you have so much guilt for being human. God created us in his image and we are all sinners. Why get on youself for being human. Again… Im sorry your life is so full of endless guilt. ”
I believe you have misunderstood me. My life is NOT full of endless guilt, but rather, I have come to a point where I can truly accept the gift of Christ’s death on the cross for me. Jesus said that he did not come to save the righteous…he came to save the sinners. I am a sinner! Now that I have realized my need for a saviour, I can accept His forgiveness…which, by the way, I have. Also, Paul tells us in Romans that just because we have been freed from the law does not mean that we should continue to sin…thus my reason to fight the good fight…I struggle, but when I fall I acknowledge my sin and my need for him and repent. Repentance, by the way, means to TURN AWAY from your sin.
I suspect the reason why the leadership has the tendency to help hide each other’s sins is in order to not be judged by the group and lose their positions of respect. It is clearly phariseeism. The organized church today is full of it and I used to be one too. It is better for us to admit our failures. Growth and learning can only start when you are honest about where you are at. That lesson is a hard one. It is sometimes easier to pretend you know what you are talking about than to admit you don’t know a thing about it. Growing up in the church taught me how to play the game…what masks to wear and when to wear them. To present an image of purity but inside my mind and my personal life I lived different. It is phariseeism! Jesus asked the pharisees why they didn’t clean the inside of the cup as well as the outside and they were offended. No one who lives in darkness wants the light shined on them.
I must say though that the church is not entirely made up of pharisees; neither are all the leaders pharisees. Like the parable when the farmer sowed his seeds and his enemy planted weeds while he was sleeping. I just think that we are not able to see the heart (only God can do that) and we should give others a fair chance…forgiving when they fall, because we are sinners too. The Bible tells us to forgive others as we would like God to forgive us and it also tells us to pursue righteousness and not to continue in our sin. “Go, and sin no more” So, I press on toward the goal…and yes, I fail…but I am not plagued by guilt. Jesus came to save a sinner like me.
March 6th, 2006 at 9:32 am
I just wanted to add that if a person in leadership commits a sin…like adultery for instance…if they do not own up to it and repent they should be removed from leadership. However, we should never be so trusting of every word that comes out of their mouth! We are supposed to be innocent…yet, street smart. It is important that we challenge what is said so that the blind don’t lead the blind. We should challenge prophecies as well. I was once at a “revival” meeting, and a “apostle/prophet” began to prophecy over me. The first words out of his mouth were…”many times you have thought about taking your own life”. I have NEVER once considered taking my own life. More likely I feel that each new obsticle is an exciting life challenge! God will not give me anything that He and I cannot handle. At that moment, I knew that he was not a true prophet and that the words following those were not from God because the test of a prophet is that what he says is true or comes true. I was shocked and disgusted. I should have stood up and said “Get thee behind me Satan” or something because there were so many there that believed that everything he said was from God. We need to understand that our fellow believers (including leadership), though they may be believers, are also human…and fallible. Thanks for having this site…it is nice to see that others desire to follow God for real…and that they are willing to challenge the teachings of others in order to find the truth. To challenge is not a sin! It is a learning tool!
March 6th, 2006 at 9:54 am
I agree. It was really wierd. His rebellious nature made him cool to these sheltered kids until he was expelled. Then he was an outcast.
March 6th, 2006 at 2:45 pm
FICM 8:29
“Second, if you disagree that sex outside of marriage is not a sin, then I guess this discussion is over and we’ll have to agree to disagree.”
This is why “christian thinkers” are irellevant in this day and time.
First, you who follow a book by blind faith must understand that their is a world out there where people study facts and then present them as such.
Second, you who live on faith must also agree that fact is more relevant than faith.
Thirdly, we must all agree that what our particular ideas of what fact and fiction are, is not important. What IS important is that the truth comes out. That organizations and groups of faith be tested. If modern day organisations are teaching and promoting a philosophy, it must be made absolutely certain that these organisations are not fleecing ignorace. That these funds are not used to shape our world. That these “leaders” are not allowed to run our courts of law. That these aggressors against truth should not be allowed to infiltrate our schools and institutions as a diety of authority. That this general attitude of fear of the future must be wiped out.
No bible verses but you get the point. Stop walking on water folks… You got alot of living and exploring to do and you probably only have 50 years left on this planet to do so.
March 6th, 2006 at 6:25 pm
It is sad that it is so obvious that you have never had an encounter with God. Those who have would never have said the things you did. So quick to judge and lacking in love…you are not a believer. Do not doubt that one day the truth will come out, and I hope that you are prepared for it. Perhaps you too will find Him if you search for Him with all of your heart. Unfortunately, it seems you have already made up your mind.
March 7th, 2006 at 2:38 am
garland of roses,
You believe that God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, etc., yes? If so, if you acknowledge infinity as an attribute of God, you acknowledge the fact that you don’t understand God, that God is impossibly and unavoidably bigger than you. If that’s true, then you must also acknowledge the fact that you cannot predict how God will appear to anyone else’s perceptions….if God is infinite, then there are infinite possibilities. In short, not only is it not very kind for you to say what you did just above, it’s also not really rational.
We can call ourselves fundamentalists until we’re blue, but even if we could follow every rule in the KJV of the Bible (which has been and always will be a document compiled by fallible humans, and necessarily a product of its time…with the values that go with that time), we would still NOT be closing in on God. I am not saying we shouldn’t be seeking for as much infinite truth as we can get our hands on (indeed, very much the opposite), but I am saying that it’s not for you or me to tell anyone else that they haven’t encountered God. When you say that to someone, you’re limiting yourself to your own experience…and as a member of the human race and a child of God, your birthright entitles you to much, much more than that. Don’t trade it for the bowl of lentils that is conventional wisdom because it feels safe and familiar. If God is so big, then God is big enough to handle it.
March 7th, 2006 at 2:58 am
Good post Jiminy.
God gave us his spirit, which is how we “see” God. Without an active spirit, we are dead to him.
It is through our spirit that we encounter God, and I believe that God reveals himself differently to different people.
An example, might be conviction. Some people are convicted of different things, at different times. For some, smoking is truly a SIN because God has convicted them of it. For others, smoking is not a sin, because God has not convicted them.
They each experience their own conviction, according to their spirit, in the time and method of God’s choosing.
I think “experiencing” God is similar. We all experience God in a different way, as is deemed fitting for us, by God.
Thus, to say that someone has not experienced God, is akin to saying that eating pork is a sin.
March 7th, 2006 at 7:18 am
How ’bout kosher pork?
On a more serious note, regarding the Bible … the compilers included the epistles of Paul, Peter, etc., in the canonized version. Shouldn’t the epistles of Jesus be included as well?
2 Corinthians 3:3 KJV Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
One of the hardest lessons I’ve learned on this walk, is to not beat up the living epistles of Christ with my printed and bound epistle. I fear, someday, we will have a mature / perfected view of what we have done in this life, and will regret how many times we used the Bible (logos word) to beat up on the living word that is Christ in each one of us.
Bringing that around to ‘on topic’, concerning the ‘gospel’, oinvu4uraqt’s posts caused me to look up ‘gospel’ in e-Sword ( http://www.e-sword.net/ ) … Jesus use of the term in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, is often “gospel of the kingdom” … elsewhere, Jesus said “the kingdom of God is within you” ( Luke 17:20-21 ) … what is this message of the Kingdom of God? That the Spirit of the Living God, has come to live IN men.
In taking up His dwelling IN men, God has made us his temple (1 Corinthians 3:16, 1 Corinthians 6:19), and has left the temple buildings ( Acts 7:48, Acts 17:24, Matthew 23:38 ).
Note that John 1 says that “In the beginning was the WORD, He was with God, and was God … and the word became flesh (Jesus) and dwelt among men” … the words He (Jesus) spoke 2000 years ago, are recorded in the Bible - yet the LIVING WORD (who is Jesus) is living in us, by the Holy Spirit, and so we are indeed the “epistle (word) of Christ”, incarnate.
If as oinvu4uraqt suggests, that we knew what the gospel really is, we would stop assaulting the REAL TEMPLES of God (men) over the abandoned / desolate temples of brick and stone, AND, we would value the LIVING WORD of Christ in each other, as much, more than we value the Bible (read: we would LOVE one another, as much as we love the Bible).
Until the day we recognize that the kingdom of God has come, and taken up residence in each other, and we love and acknowledge each other for the righteous and holy occupant in these temples of flesh, it is clear that we do not understand the gospel at all.
March 7th, 2006 at 8:27 am
Jiminy, you make a valid point. God is greater than I can imagine. He has never fit into my little box and for that I am thankful. You are right to say that each person is limited to their own experience and understanding. On this site you have complained about many people at CBC and teachers at TCS/TCHS. You had positive comments as well, although few. The funny thing is that the ones that you had positive things to say about are some of the ones who failed me as a youth (Mrs. Coleman, Mr. McGregor, etc.).
What I was trying to get across was that, yes, we must challenge the institutions, the organizations, etc. but not limit our challenge to groups of faith or groups that hold to beliefs that seem to be “old fashioned”. There may be truth in what we think is “old fashioned” or “ignorant”. Magdalon is right that the ultimate goal is to seek out the truth. It seemed to me, however, that his comment was directed at people of faith and that those of us who believe are foolish and ignorant. Magdalons comment convinced me of his own personal ignorance when it comes to people of faith. I did not choose to believe based on blind faith. I have studied, struggled, challenged, and sought after the truth. I understand that there is more for me to discover and more to learn. What I am suggesting is that he put a little more effort into understanding why others choose to believe and not just assume it is because they are ignorant.
March 7th, 2006 at 8:40 am
I don’t believe entirely that our encounters with God are all that different. God is who he is and there is a signature that he leaves that is undeniable. There are many who say they believe in God, yet have never experienced Him personally. The ones who have had personal encounters with God seem to recognize when others’ experiences have that similar signature. It doesn’t mean that the experiences or encounters are the same, but that He is. “My sheep hear my voice and they know me”
March 7th, 2006 at 12:42 pm
“On this site you have complained about many people at CBC and teachers at TCS/TCHS. You had positive comments as well, although few. The funny thing is that the ones that you had positive things to say about are some of the ones who failed me as a youth (Mrs. Coleman, Mr. McGregor, etc.).”
This was not necessarily about you Jiminy…I meant some people on this site.
March 7th, 2006 at 12:49 pm
garland of roses,
First and foremost, I’m glad to be chatting with you. I really enjoy this kind of discourse, and I really appreciate the fact that you’re sharing your thoughts with me and others.
Your most recent post actually illustrates my point nicely and contradicts the first paragraph of your post right before it. Believing that people’s experiences of God are “not all that different” really is the issue at hand here. Infinity is BIG — encompassing not only things that are “not all that different” from one another, but every opposite, every east unto west, etc. The “signature” of God that you describe cannot be the same for everyone. If God is limitless, the possibilities are limitless, and what may appear as foolishness or even sin to you may in fact be the very breath of God to someone else. That’s my point, and that’s why judging another person’s experience at all is such a dangerous thing to do.
I’m curious as to how long you’ve been reading….it seems you know a lot about my history on this blog. You’re citing comments I’ve made that I’ve actually forgotten about altogether….I don’t recall mentioning Bob MacGregor at all, but I do indeed think of him as a good guy who was decent to me when we interacted. Of course, I don’t say that to discount whatever negative experiences you may have had…I know I say a lot of critical things about my CBC experiences, but I do try to acknowledge kindness when it was shown. Again, like you say, it just goes to show that the world really is different to everybody’s eyes…and I’d venture to say that there’s great strength in that.
March 7th, 2006 at 12:51 pm
oops….you posted while I was writing my last post….I was referring to your second post when I referred to your most recent post.
March 7th, 2006 at 4:03 pm
God is infinate, but he is not like the wind…just a passing motion. He has a personality that is evident in everything that He has done. What you are suggesting is that all roads lead to God…which is dangerous to believe. Have you read the Bible? Do you believe what it says?…what He says about Himself? It seems to me that you are saying that God is whatever people experience Him to be…but that in itself is a box…you also are contradicting yourself. When you say…”what may appear as foolishness or even sin to you may in fact be the very breath of God to someone else.”…is heresy. The Bible says that “God is not a man that He should lie”. You are making Him out to be a flake…saying to one person that something is okay and to another that it is not. If we are told in His word to let our yes be yes and our no no…why would He require that from us while He changes what He says or means? God does not change His mind like you or I may do…but, every word that goes out of His mouth accomplishes what He intends. You seem to be quite decieved. God is unchanged…today, yesterday, and forever. Yes, He is infinate…His ways are above my own…it will take eternity to understand… But, He is not two-faced or changeable. If two people unknowingly befriend the same person, although that person may have a different relationship with each one, the personality is the SAME. Just ask two women that have been intimate with the same man (or vice versa)…the experiences they have had with him are in many ways very similar. That is what I mean by a “signature”.
March 7th, 2006 at 4:31 pm
“God is who he is and there is a signature that he leaves that is undeniable.”
By signature, do you mean absolute authorization?
I believe in a god. I believe in absolutes as well. My basic premisce is that most of us are born into a circle of people who end up shaping our every reasoning. This is to say that once one has been told by his mother how god feels, then that child definitely has an impression of what god shold be (signature).
I remember as a young person going to worship services and I remember the feeling of my hair standing on my neck as I listened to the choir and symphony. This, I was told, was god moving through men.
I later went to a baseball game at the Kingdome in Seattle and felt the same feeling as I entered the top deck of the stadium and took in the sound of possibly 30,000 fans cheering as
Jay Buhner knocked a home run over the left field fence.
What im trying to get at is that if you have been told how god feels then you are already at a disadvantage to knowing the truth for yourself. Likewise if you were never told your whole life that god existed you would probably somehow see him in things that surround you everyday. I dont want to go too deep with this, but I just feel I have to say something when people start telling me I havent experienced god so how could I know. I think the opposite. I think the smiles you see on the faces of people in third world countries have more validity in representing god then some cross on a chain around your neck.
March 7th, 2006 at 4:44 pm
I also love a good discussion. It is good for me to have my thoughts challenged. Like I said before…”To challenge is…a learning tool!”
As for my negative interaction with Bob McGregor… I was a daughter of a single mother (my dad had left us two years earlier) and I was having a very hard time in my life. I had been skipping school quite often and he (probably attempting to help–he was the HS principal at the time) promised that the next time I did that he would drive to my house and take me to school himself. So, one morning I got dressed for school and waited for him to come and get me. He never came. He never even apologized to me for breaking his promise. I think I tested him because I needed to know that I was worth it to someone. Obviously, his word to a young fatherless girl was not as important as a leadership meeting. I have forgiven him for it…and I also have failed someone who needed me…. Now, that I have repented for my foolish mistake and forgiven him for his…I can look back with understanding. However, it happened. I do not know his heart or whether he regrets it or doesn’t even remember it. I view it now as a learning experience. I can tell you this though at this point in my life, if I were him I would have told the other ministers that I needed to leave in order to fulfill a promise to a very vulnerable young person. I think if they had any love in their heart they would have understood. It is my fear that he was more concerned with promoting himself to the leadership rather than being a true minister. It was after that that I got into a little trouble at school (I was caught reading a story during the morning scripture, caught chewing gum, and I told my music teacher to *#$% off) so they suspended me for a week in order to consider expelling me. At that my mom removed me from school and we moved to an entirely different town.
March 7th, 2006 at 5:17 pm
That is very amusing Magdalon… There was a time in my life where I had no intention in believing in God. Also, my parents did not tell me how to recognize the presence of God. I discovered Him on my own…AFTER I was grown. It was only in the past year that my own father told me of his very first real personal encounter with God…and was amazed that I understood (he has been a Christian for nearly 60 years).
March 7th, 2006 at 5:20 pm
B-Mac played offense. If he ever taught me anything, it was that I didnt want a life as complicated as his. He offered to minister to me because I wasn’t “fitting in” at CBC. Later I found out that my mother had requested a meeting for me because she was worried that the school was making me depressed.
B-Mac’s ministry included he and I speeding from the CBC parking lot, taking a few shortcuts and next thing I know we were at McDonalds. I think at least 5 -6 kids from the church saw me talking to him at McD’s and that was super embarrassing. Being seen alone with B-Mac always seemed to me something like a public woodshed. Punishment for all to see. It also sucked because i told him i don’t eat fast food but he insisted on McD’s. I totally forgot about this episode until today. All I can say now is that I think B-Mac represents the essence of CBC. Always moving forward and if some get hurt and fall to the wayside, there will be other young souls to find and consume.
March 7th, 2006 at 5:28 pm
you know, B-Mac sounds like big mac…McDonalds Hmmm… Well, I guess I wasn’t the only one that needed more than a quick fix…If you can’t get the customer through in 30 seconds or less…give them a coupon for a free meal…
March 7th, 2006 at 5:42 pm
garland of roses-
the way you spell my name Magdalon (should be Magledon) leads me to believe that you don’t really spend much time reading my words.
At least they fall on deaf ears maybe. I bet you have had a very one track indoctrination your whole life. That’s o.k… Me too!!!
Lately tho, since the war and world events, Ive been trying to get to the heart of the matter of why we fight. What causes people to pick up a gun , put on a uniform, take an oath, then go to a foriegn country and die. Immediately your brain will give you a plethora of reasons why that action is normal. Then figure out what source in your life told you this was all o.k.
For me this is what I found:
As a young child, I learned songs like “Onward Christian Soldier” I have an ex-marine christian uncle who proudly shouts “For God and Country” when he watches American planes drop bombs on Iraq. Situations like these make things like putting a uniform on and going to war o.k. At least that used to be the case. Now that I have put on that uniform, done the drills, fired the large assault rifles, done armory duty, learned search and siezure techs, I’ve become aware of one thing. I wasn’t put in this place by anyone but myself. I made the decision to act. But I also recognize that many of the teachings and surroundings that christianity involve may be some of the reason I thought it was o.k in the first place to kill others. Similarly, I am looking at all my choices in life and reasonings that I have made and am daily concluding that most of the christian teachings directly go into conflict with ow our “christian” country behaves. So for the moment i am concluding that christianity, like islam, is just a easy way of controlling large and vast amounts of people and power. Religions in and of themselves are nice and happy. But when people start saying theyve met god and yet they can’ see these simple elements of their faith, I know that something is terribly amiss.
March 7th, 2006 at 7:06 pm
lol I knew you would say something eventually about my misspelling of your name…sorry. It has nothing to do with whether I read your words or not…honestly.
Not so deaf either! Anyhow, I think that we need to get beyond our upbringing and don’t allow other fallible humans to “tell” us how to live. We need to have a relationship with God that is entirely on our own…not because we don’t want to disappoint someone who loves us or just regurgitate what we’ve been fed our whole lives. I would not be able to join the military at this point in my life because I don’t know if I would be able to kill another human being…for any reason. Perhaps if the life of my child was seriously threatened I would… I struggle with the whole Iraq war thing. In some ways…it makes sense to fight for injustice and to get them before they get us. However, didn’t Jesus say to “turn the other cheek”? Jesus was even angry with Peter for bringing a weapon to the garden. So, whether it is right or wrong I do not know. Just because I call myself a Christian does not mean that I follow the Christian crowd. I do my best to follow Christ himself because he only was set before us as an example of how to live. You make a lot of generalizations concerning Christians…but many who claim to be Christians are not really Christians in their heart. We are not all true; yet, we share a label. Jesus calls us to go farther than the law of Moses…to go the extra mile…to not just do what is right because we want a reward or we want others to think highly of us, but to do what is right because it is right. I just think that following others blindly is dangerous…including…ESPECIALLY the leaders of the church. They are our brothers/sisters who should point the way and give us encouragement and NOT dictate our relationship with God. Jesus gave us the example of leadership…one of servanthood and humility. A servant would not drive a mercedes when the people he/she serves are driving a POS. Also, a servant would not demand that everyone do things their way. There needs to be a total reformation of the church as an institution from my point of view. The current representation is not a good reflection of the One we are supposed to be following.
March 7th, 2006 at 7:22 pm
Jesus also went against the status quo. He ate and drank with sinners…which was quite a no no for good jews at that time. Remember it was the Pharisees who wanted Him dead…not the sinners… The Pharisees, I believe, were religious people who presented an image of righteousness and were quick to judge those who found it hard to live up to the requirements of the law. Jesus, however, challenged them to follow the spirit of the law and do so with all their heart. One of the rules at TCHS for girls was that you couldn’t wear dangly earrings. I got a detention for wearing little pearl earrings that wiggled slightly below my earlobs. Come On!…a detention? The essence of that law was that they didn’t want me to dress wordly. Those earrings were no more wordly than covering my Bible with pretty fabric and lace. Yet, they punished me because the rule said “no dangly earrings”. It is absolutely ridiculous! It is Phariseeism.
March 7th, 2006 at 7:55 pm
Hey, speaking of the military does anyone have memories of Mr. Sligar?
March 8th, 2006 at 3:18 am
garland,
Maybe I’m not making myself clear. Something that makes you uncomfortable isn’t necessarily heresy, and a God who behaves in a way you don’t understand isn’t necessarily a flake. You are describing God in terms of humanity….fashioning God in your image, as it were. It doesn’t work like that. I still feel like you haven’t provided me with an argument on this point of infinity. If you go by the rules of an infinite God, it’s not possible to make the claims you’re making. They’re convenient, conventional Western Church claims….but they don’t hold up in the face of the first fundamental — the nature of the Being that Christians claim to worship. I have indeed read the Bible many times over….I spent 17 years at CBC to your 9, plus 2 years in a Presbyterian church, a year at a Vineyard church, 3 years at a Catholic church, 2 years at a Methodist church, and a year at an American Baptist church, plus time logged with Episcopalians and InterVarsity groups. I’ve done the survey of mainline and evangelical, I’ve put in the hours, done the reading and the homework….my training is solid. That’s not the point. The point is that there’s an enormous contradiction inherent in what you’re saying, and you aren’t addressing it.
I’m sorry to hear that Bob Mac let you down….your story is quite sad. It resonates with me for a lot of reasons. I think it’s admirable that you’re now able to move past that and find your own faith….and once again, I’m glad to be in dialogue with you.
March 8th, 2006 at 7:51 am
Okay…must we compare our Biblical educational backgrounds? To begin with, I spent 14 years at CBC…not 9. I’ve also been to Bible college for 3 (not PBC). As for churches or other groups I have attended, ministered in, or been involved in…believe me, they are too numerous to count. As we speak right now I am discouraged with the church and I have not been to an organized church meeting for a couple of years now. I have however surrounded myself with others to learn from…. So, there you have it…I am not any better than you or you me.
As for what I have been trying to express…you still are misunderstanding the whole thing. I think maybe you are stuck in your perception of God that you are unable to understand what I am trying to say. I question whether your arguements are only because you too have never felt His presence in your life in a supernatural way. If that is true…I am truly sorry. If God had no personality…no signature…nothing that made Him who He is…how would we ever recognize whether it is Him who speaks or our own thoughts…or even the babblings of Satan himself? What is it that tells you that God is speaking to you? or do you even listen? From what I know, what I have experienced, and what I have learned from others (not just fundamental Christians mind you)…His voice is recognizable because it belongs to Him. I used human terms in order to try to feebly explain it. I suppose I should ask God to explain it to you instead…I am not enough.
March 8th, 2006 at 8:30 am
I really think you are confusing God with nirvana.
March 8th, 2006 at 10:26 am
As for attempting to explain God in human terms…that does not constitute putting Him in a box. God describes Himself in human terms so that we are more able to understand Him. He allowed Moses to view His “back” as He walked by. Many times in the Bible he “stretches out His arm” or “turns His face towards” and expressions like that. He explains that He is our “Father” and that Jesus is our “groom”. Those are all human terms that we are able to understand…. Yes, His ways are above our ways…His thoughts are above ours. There is no way on earth we will be able to understand Him completely…that is what forever with Him will be for. He may be omnipotent and infinate…but, He is not without personality or substance of any kind. “my sheep HEAR MY VOICE and they KNOW me”
March 8th, 2006 at 11:53 am
Garland,
God describing God in human terms is VERY different from humans describing God in human terms (think about your dog and how your dog would describe you to another dog….Fido might be able to give a basic physical description and tell you apart from other humans, but would the dog be able to tell another dog what you believe in? No, because your dog can’t understand your motivations….for all your dog knows, you’re collecting its poo on a regular basis because you think it’s going to turn to gold. And in the case of an infinite being, the problem is far greater because there’s theoretically only one….so that means there’s no one to tell God apart from). For us to do so is arrogant, and for us to tell another person that they haven’t experienced God is arrogant. Your words to me are arrogant. I told you about my background because I thought you were asking, not to start a contest. It doesn’t matter to me. From what you’re saying, it’s not so much that you think you’re right as that you BELIEVE that you’re right….and you seem to feel that you’re done thinking about it. That’s fine, that’s your prerogative….but it’s not fair for you to tell someone else that they have to agree with you or they don’t really know God. Maybe God is nirvana….maybe nirvana is an aspect of God that was revealed as such to one group of people and not in so many words to another for whatever reason. Is that anti-Christian for me to say? Surely not. If God emcompasses infinity, God also emcompasses nothingness. If it’s even appropriate to say that God has a personality, it’d be impossible for you to say you knew what it was. You can’t accurately put limiting modifiers on an infinite being. Once you say it’s infinite, all bets are off. Believe me, I’ve thought about this in light of many experiences that definitely appear supernatural….I won’t make a list for fear of starting another pissing contest, but take my word for it. I’m not wanting for miracles….I think there’s plenty to go around. I just think Christians need to be a LOT more careful when they start putting exclusive labels on things they couldn’t possibly begin to understand.
March 8th, 2006 at 1:00 pm
In some ways we are arguing the same point…two blind scientists viewing an elephant at different areas. I have NEVER said that others have to agree with me or they don’t know God. That would be silly. You say I am arrogant. I know I come across that way at times…I just feel strongly about what I believe…and I was challenged. You have not proven your point either…nor why I should agree with you. My beliefs are pretty much based on the Bible. In all your rantings at me not once have you mentioned Scripture to back what you say…yet, I have. In those explanations of God in human terms…not all were made by God himself…some of them are made by humans…if you really read your Bible you would have recognized that. I am going to end my side of this discussion…not because I concede that you are right or that I am wrong, but that it is meaningless and worthless to maintain a discussion that is not getting anywhere. You have your beliefs and I have mine. If we are truly seeking Him for who He is…we will find Him and this discussion won’t have any merit. If you are a true believer or not my heart is here for you. We do not have to agree or even know the exact truth to share the love of God for each other. He will reveal Himself when we are ready and our hearts are open to learning from Him. By the way, it IS important what you have experienced and what you have learned by reading the Bible…everything else is just an opinion.
March 8th, 2006 at 1:08 pm
“Your words to me are arrogant.” So true Jiminy…
We are arrogant to an extent. This forum allows it and thats why we come. But i like to see someone call it like it is.
The heart of the matter for me is this. Garland of Roses, in one instance quotes “turn thee other cheek” and in the same moment she says ” well if my child was in danger”. This is what Im trying to get to. This is the very essence of my statement.
Garland, if your Bible Quotes Jesus and you read those words and you understand them and yet you are so quickly able to realize that in REAL LIFE circumstance there may be an exception to Christs’ words, then maybe this is part of a much larger phenomenon.
Maybe this explains how christians and muslims can go around saying that their beliefs are ones of peace but as soon as someone has an interest to make money, these two groups go to war. I think that religions prove the theory of survival of the fittest. But at the same time religions deny the monsters they are and people like you Garland, are the people in society that allow these religions to control modern day institutions which turns the wheels of war.
Religions are the largest form of hyprocrisy that this worlds populations have not rooted out yet. When one gets to the very basics, it comes down to individuals. Individuals, in America, especially like to LINK up with some form of indoctrination and they feel at home with it and they live it all the while not knowing the consequeces that their own beliefs have on all those around the world who are caught in the middle.
Garland- I recommend you read some history books and maybe even a couple other religious texts just so you can grasp the ideas floating around here. I dont think it is evil to do that , is it?
March 8th, 2006 at 1:10 pm
The Bible is constantly contradicting itself