Posted on March 8th, 2006 by catalyst into the Politics category
Bart Ehrman is a University of North Carolina theology professor who no longer believes in God. Bart did not lose his faith due to a desire to sin or a personal crisis. Bart Ehrman lost his faith because of his intense research into the Bible. At one time, he was a "pillar of Christian Conservative." However, his research caused him to lose faith.
In a recent Washington Post article Mr. Ehrman offers this interesting tidbit:
Sometimes Christian apologists say there are only three options to who Jesus was: a liar, a lunatic or the Lord," he tells a packed auditorium here at the University of North Carolina, where he chairs the department of religious studies. "But there could be a fourth option — legend."
This is an Interesting statement, but to me rather irrelevant. It only proves why Christianity is called Faith. It takes Faith to believe. At some point, you cannot prove God exists, nor can you prove God does not exist. It comes down to a personal relationship with Christ. You believe what you believe, and no on can take that from you. That is what makes Faith so powerful.
Now before you accuse me of trying to copy JP’s excellent novel/blog below, let me say what prompted me to mention this on the blog is really another blogger’s response.
Andrew Sullivan mentioned the same WaPo article in his blog, and one of Andrew’s readers responded.
"You ignore a large part of Bart’s spiritual journey, which was mentioned but not focused on in the article, a point with which any of his students are forever impressed. The suffering. Ehrman finally saw a human world unconstrained by even the simplest of moral logic, and this is what broke him. I think it’s not so much that Ehrman doesn’t believe there is a God (he does say he’s agnostic), but that he simply doesn’t want to believe in a God that doesn’t care. This is a question that religion has never addressed with anything but the most hollow and strained assurances."
To which Andrew responds:
My own Catholic response to that existential dilemma is simply the cross. I remain a believer because I believe that the divine did not stop suffering but instead chose to embrace and thereby transcend it. Does that somehow end human suffering? Of course not. Does it logically solve the problem? Not without faith or an encounter with Christ himself. But it doesn’t avoid the problem, it seems to me, either. It places it at the center of Christian faith.
I thought Andrew’s response was excellent. And it’s odd, because Andrew is a practicing Catholic who fervently defends his faith and promotes it in his blog. I used to grow up thinking Catholic’s weren’t really Christians, but it is so obviously untrue, and it is responses like this that only further cement my support of Catholicism.
The other interesting tidbit is that Andrew Sullivan is gay; a practicing homosexual. It is such a shame he is not getting into Heaven.
March 8th, 2006 at 9:38 am
Yeah, God really should start letting Catholics into heaven.
March 8th, 2006 at 10:06 am
Catalyst said:
Not to worry, Catalyst.
The real homosexuality is religion; specifically homosexuality is to religion, what heterosexuality is to spiritual re-birth. Homosexuality and religion produce no offspring/life. Heterosexuality and relationship with God produce life/re-birth.
March 8th, 2006 at 12:17 pm
Speaking of Catholics in heaven…
whatever happend to Samuel John Klein?
March 8th, 2006 at 12:24 pm
Come on now, do you really believe that currently practicing homosexuals cannot/will not get into heaven? I’d like to believe that you’re just being glib, but if not, check it: homosexuality is a sin, just like coveting your neighbor’s flat-panel or lying on your taxes. Yes, there’s something to be said for the practicing aspect - Paul rebukes those who claim Christ’s salvation but continue in sinful behavior - but to claim that someone who is struggling with a sin will not get into heaven is a bit heavy-handed.
March 8th, 2006 at 12:33 pm
I have no clue who is and who isn’t getting into heaven. And anyone who says they do know, is just trying to sell you something.
But yeah, I’m being sarcastic. I don’t think homosexuality keeps you out of heaven. In fact, I don’t even think homosexualtiy is a sin. That said, very few of our readers agree with me on that.
March 8th, 2006 at 12:40 pm
Any religion that claims to hold the key to your afterlife is a hoax. But to stand alone in defiance of the trends of dead prophets and positively affirm that you don’t really know the facts, takes more strength than most men have. I find it quite interesting that someone who is gay would rather accept a world religion, so he has some validity as a human being, rather than going out and finding his own truth. Andrew must be one interesting fellow.
March 8th, 2006 at 12:48 pm
“The suffering. Ehrman finally saw a human world unconstrained by even the simplest of moral logic, and this is what broke him. I think it’s not so much that Ehrman doesn’t believe there is a God (he does say he’s agnostic), but that he simply doesn’t want to believe in a God that doesn’t care.”
It appears to me that no one ever wants to take accountability for their actions. I believe there is a cause and effect for just about everything that happens. When people “sin” it has an effect on society and if God removed “suffering” from the earth, where would that leave us?
You think people shouldn’t suffer from AIDS? I think people shouldn’t sleep around.
“What about the child who get’s aids from a blood transfusion? Why should he suffer?” Well, this just goes to show that when we (I) sin it can cause others pain. It is fair? No, but since when has life been fair?
People need to suffer and people need to go to hell, that is what I believe.
If everyone went to hell it wouldn’t show what God’s grace can do, but if everyone went to heaven it wouldn’t show what sin deserves.
Besides, this life isn’t what life is all about…it’s just all that we can see.
March 8th, 2006 at 12:52 pm
Very interesting article.
The “problem” of suffering is such a lame excuse for not believing. I see this “question” as a cop-out for not being willing to truly allow oneself to hear the answer.
As for the gays… well, I’m pretty sure there will be a few pink mansions.
lol. Cracks me up when people take your posts so literal. Common folks.. he was joking. He keeeds he keeeeds.
March 8th, 2006 at 1:26 pm
Are the gay jokes kinda popular right now? Just like the Your Mom! jokes were in the nineties right… yeah… good fun
Catholics cling to suffering, I’ve noticed. In parts of So America they beat themselves with branches and cut their skin in the streets. That may just be Indians adding their “special sauce” to the mix but I’ve never forgotten how much those folks like beating themselves up.
Repentence, guilt, submission, retribution,suffering, these are a few of my favorite things. Ive seen it from one side of my family. The Catholics always had the best parties tho.
“lame excuse for not believing” in what? God does have a sense of humor! Like Manson!!!
March 8th, 2006 at 4:44 pm
There is an interesting “diablog” going on at www.off-the-map.org An atheist back east auctioned himself on Ebay, agreeing to explore whatever religion the highest bidder desired. Off the Map, a Christian outift in Seattle, won that bid. The atheist is now blogging for OTM about his observations and experiences as he visits different churches in his home city of Chicago.
Some of the discussion has recently turned towards homosexuality.
Worth checking out…
(Hey RP, I thought you guys retired!)
March 8th, 2006 at 5:19 pm
I know, I know - the deprecating humor (self- and otherwise) is one of the top reasons I read this blog. But since I don’t know the bloggers personally and only have their written words to asess, I occassionally find it hard to parse what is simple keeding and what is not…
On the whole though, great blog. I grew up in Portland and, though I never attended The Temple, I lived nearby and had friends that went there and to PBC. So, no personal experience with the church, but just enough peripheral knowledge to make for an interesting read.
March 9th, 2006 at 7:34 am
Stephen: Thanks for the comment. When in doubt, we’re probably just joking. And hey, if you’ve got any BT stories, let us know.
And Pam: JP and I quit about once every three months. Give us a month or two, we’ll quit again. Don’t you worry. We’re worse than Roger Clemens.
March 9th, 2006 at 9:19 pm
Sorry to come to the discussion party so late. I’ve never gone to CBC, but have certainly been to my share of churches like it, so I occasionally jog over to see what’s going on in your fair discussion group.
Henri: I think that it’s a little unfair to dismiss the problem of suffering as a “lame” excuse for not believing. I think that it’s one of the most unanswered questions in Christianity today. Why is the world so f**&#$ng unjust? Why doesn’t God do something about it, if he is real? I’m not saying that Christianity hasn’t answered this question, it just hasn’t answered it very well.
And that, I think, is one of the things that leads us back to our dissatisfaction with the money/power-hungry American church. It does nothing to reduce injustice in the world, which is a big theme in Jesus’ Kingdom of God.
Thoughts?
March 10th, 2006 at 1:08 pm
For me, it comes down to free will. In order for our love of Christ to be sincere we have to be able to NOT love Christ. We have to be able to act in a manner that is antithetical to love. And thus we have to be able to hurt others. God can’t intervene, because to intervene deprives us of our free will.
Of course, this opens up a lot of other questions. But that’s how I answer the question for myself.
March 10th, 2006 at 3:24 pm
Well, who wants someone to love you because they have to! I would rather be loved or even hated by someone because they freely choose to…than to never know how they really feel because they have to love me. One of my close relatives said to me “why can’t you just ‘be nice’”. I can’t just ‘be nice’ because if I hid what I thought or felt OR if others hid what they thought or felt (so not to hurt feelings–there is, however, such a thing as tact) we would never know the truth about each other…and therefore, never know each other. If God didn’t give us free will…it would be like he was just playing with “Barbies”.
March 11th, 2006 at 7:37 am
I realize this is after the fact, but here is something that my cousin wrote for a philosophy class she’s taking.
“What it is the problem of evil?
If an all-good, all-wise, all-loving, all-just, and all-powerful God is running the show, why does he seem to be doing such a miserable job of it? Why do bad things happen to good people?
Through my walk with God, i’ve taken comfort in just believing and having faith in Him. I haven’t needed a lot of proof. After being in this philosophy class, many people would say that is ignorance. i dont agree. I think when you decide to believe in anything… you have the choice to either delite in what makes you feel whole, or you can question everything about it…. but thats not really what this blog is about… so back to the problem of evil
Many people become discouraged by bad things happening in this world. Its hard to see other people(or ourselves) going through hard things.
If God is so good, why is his world so bad? We have to define what bad and evil is. For the most part, we equate evil to bad. So i will continue in saying evil things are bad things.
There are two different kinds of evil. Moral evil and Natural evil.
Moral evil is result of someone’s choices… Murder, rape…etc.
Natural evil are things that occur from natural processes. Earthquakes, Tsunamis… etc. (side note, in the beginning God set up laws of nature. its through man’s choices that we are effected by these things… like building cities where earthquakes frequent and below sea level… but thats not really what this blog is about.)
So to my point:
Evil is not a thing.
Every thing God created is good. We naturally tend to think of evil as a thing …. a black cloud. But this is misleading. If God is the Creator of all things and evil is a thing, then God is the Creator of evil, and he is to blame for its existence. No, evil is not a thing but a wrong choice, or the damage done by a wrong choice. It is not a thing. If the origin of evil is free will, and God is the origin of free will, isn’t God then the origin of evil? God gave us free will… we can choose freely. Who would rather he didn’t and had made us robots rather than human beings? God did not create evil. He tried to fix it! God’s solution to the problem of evil is Jesus!. God sent his Son to die for us to defeat the power of evil. We do not worship a deistic God. He did not create this amazing world and abandon it. When sin entered the world he didn’t become absent from us. He came right down into our worst filth to clean it up.
Let’s take one last look at my first question.
If an all-good, all-wise, all-loving, all-just, and all-powerful God is running the show, why does he seem to be doing such a miserable job of it?
Why do bad things happen to good people?
First… Who’s to say we are good?
There are a lot of things that i see happen in this world that are cause by people that are anything but good. The problem we have is in how we perseve ourselves. I learned “none is good but God” in sunday school.
Second…. Why is suffering evil?
What kind of people would we be if life was nothing but “good things”. Dont we learn more from messing up than doing everything the right way?… (which is impossible). Who’s to say God is not good or fair to people while they are alive on the earth? I know my life has been hard at times, but when i compare it to other people i know its true that “all things work together for good to those who love God,” even when i know that all things aren’t good or easy.
Third…. Why do we need to know all God’s reasons?
Of all the things God has given us and promised us, we’ve come out blessed beyond what we are worthy of. He never said that He would tell us everything about this world, as we are living. I think the point of my existence is to trust God, to follow God, and to love God. the fact is, things happened beyond our feeble understanding. And God has his plans that we wouldn’t even understand, because we dont know whats going to happen. You think we could even handle all the information?
(its like a baby. step by step they develop their senses. A baby cannot see very far after it is born. As they nurse they can only see as far as their mother’s face. slowly they see further. this is amazing to me. How overwhelming would life be, if we could see, speak, understand, and walk right at the beginning? Slowly we learn and then each of our senses develop a little bit at a time.) -isn’t that how we are with God? How overwhelming would life be to understand and know all of the why’s?
So to sum up.
God created people and gave us the gift of free choice. We have used that and ended up harming ourselves. The problem is the consequences of free will are uncomfortable. What is the consquence of free will? sin. what is the consequence of sin? no eternal life with God, the creater, the giver of this free life. The worst part of the problem of evil is eternal evil, hell. Does hell not contradict a loving and omnipotent God? No, hell is the consequence of free will used poorly. No one wants hell to exist. No one wants evil to exist. But hell is just evil eternalized. Evil is shocking and uncomfortable, it is the same with hell. “
March 11th, 2006 at 3:44 pm
its like a baby. step by step they develop their senses. A baby cannot see very far after it is born. As they nurse they can only see as far as their mother’s face. slowly they see further. soon they are learning alphabets and the bible. then they theyare told the infallible truth in Sunday school and these kids never think for themselves again. all they do is post stupid jibberish on a church blog.
March 11th, 2006 at 5:41 pm
Secret Friend,
That’s very pretty and neat. And it’s not an answer. If you take comfort in “just believing”, you’re closing your eyes to a lot. That’s your choice. After all, you’re lucky enough to have been born into the richest country in the world (I’m assuming), and evidently are affluent enough to have internet access and spare time to use it. So, why not continue with that streak, and just keep believing that nothing will ever be SO bad as to shake you to the point where you realize that chaos might just be strong enough to get at any of us. It’s not evil you’re talking about. It’s chaos. Everything is getting more chaotic all the time….that’s just basic thermodynamics. And, forseeable outcomes are made up…I believe in them like I believe in the tooth fairy. We will never, ever know the full extent of consequences for our actions in advance, or even after the fact. It doesn’t work like that. This means that something that looks like a tremendous evil today may look like a miracle tomorrow….and vice versa. If you want to attribute that to an Intelligence, that’s your right. But, it’s equally rational to NOT make that attribution. It makes equal sense to say that it’s essentially random. Therefore, you may have comforted yourself by what you’ve said, but you haven’t explained anything to anyone….and frankly, I find your commentary about building cities on fault lines, etc., massively offensive and oh-so-typically American in its shortsightedness.
I sound angry, and I’m not being very nice….I know that. I’m sorry for the abrasive language, really I am….it’s directed at your commentary, not at you. But essentially, you’ve landed squarely on a huge philosophical dilemma and decided to tackle it by spraying baby-powder-scented fairy dust on it….and that’s not fair to the people whose lives are complete shit compared to yours. It’s not fair for you to say “I believe” in the face of that unless you look it squarely in the eye. You may, of course — as I said, it’s your right to close your eyes and just believe. However, I must question either your sincerity or your intelligence if you do so.
March 11th, 2006 at 6:25 pm
First of all, I didn’t write that post. If you will re-read the very first line, I said that it’s the beginning of a paper my cousin is writing for a philosophy class. I did not say that I agree with it in its entirety, I just thought that since it had to do with some of the previous comments, and what she had to say has some merit, that it would be good to post it.
Second, my cousin used poor word choice in saying that she believes what she does because of her Sunday School teacher. She believes what she believes because she has read the Word of God and has made her own choice to follow Him.
I am so sick of people telling others who look at things or at least TRY to look at things from a godly, biblical perspective, that they cannot or do not think for themselves. I understand that there are people who do what they are told by the church, no questions asked, but this is not a case of that (yes, I’m sure. My cousin is an intelligent, albeit, young lady). Christians that try to be *gasp* Christ-like are attacked here and accused of putting on airs or being fake or trying to be perfect. I’ll speak for myself and say, I know I’m not perfect. I don’t pretend to be and I don’t try to put on airs. I do try my as best I can, though, to follow Christ in everything that I do - to look at things from His perspective and His viewpoint. I fail - miserably all the time. But I at least try.
I will also throw this out there - I believe in Grace. I’m thankful every moment of every day for the grace of God. I do not, however, use grace as a crutch on which to lean when I feel like not trying to do what I feel God expects of me. It’s not CBC telling me, “But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do.” It’s 1 Peter 1:15.
That’s all I have to say. I’m not a great theological debator and I think arguing about things like this is a waste of time since there are people dying and going to hell. I just wanted to, respectfully, add my two cents, which I did.
And as a closing remark, it seems to me that there are many people on here, who disagree with biblical (ie, found in the Bible) principles based solely on the fact that PF has preached them from the pulpit. I would challenge those of you who are doing that to check your hearts - your thinking may be just as controlled by CBC as you claim CBC attenders is but in that, if CBC says it, it is automatically wrong. I challenge YOU to search the Word of God and test what you’ve heard. Don’t just write it of because PF said it.
March 11th, 2006 at 7:25 pm
“I am so sick of people telling others who look at things or at least TRY to look at things from a godly, biblical perspective, that they cannot or do not think for themselves…Christians that try to be *gasp* Christ-like are attacked here and accused of putting on airs or being fake or trying to be perfect.”
Oh, and don’t forget that they accuse you of being “arrogant”….
Jiminy has allowed for the infiltration of other religions and ways of thinking into her belief system which I believe is a HUGE mistake…I also used to think that way as well… However, I have come a long way since and I believe that we just need to be patient with her and others like her…eventually God will eliminate everything in her that is not belonging to Him if she truly wants to serve Him. God is a jealous god and as far as I have read in His Word His actions prove that He hates it when we confuse Him with other religions. Mixing is how we are slowly drawn away from Him. It is like a frog in a pot. If you start with cold water and slowly turn up the heat he won’t jump out…he’ll just cook. There is only one truth…only one God…and only one way to Him. Disagree if you want.
Intelligence by the world’s standards is nothing…
“For it is written: ‘I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.’ Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?” I Corinthians 1:19-20
“The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.” I Corinthians 2:14
March 11th, 2006 at 10:21 pm
garland of roses,
Out of curiosity, can you further elaborate on what is so harmful about mixing other religions/ideas/cultural beliefs?
The Bible, in my opinion, seems to be a collection of heavily redacted literature, that was adapted and shaped by the many popular traditions of its time.
Why would God choose to manifest Himself and exercise all his power and influence exclusively through the Israelites? Are you suggesting that the cultural traditions and mythologies of other people that have been preserved for many thousands of years are complete lies? How are their stories any different from those of the Bible?
Many cultures have stories about Creation, Floods, Deities, Resurrection, etc.
In fact, it seems to me, that many aspects of Judeo-Christian beliefs have been borrowed from other cultural tradtions. Have you heard of Zoroastrianism, or The Cult of Mithras?
Many Christian holidays we celebrate have come from pagan traditions.
It amazes me, that an all pervasive omnipotent God, would choose to express himself in such a limited way. Why wouldn’t he choose to demonstrate his love to ALL the people of the world?
Why wouldn’t he choose to represent himself in a unique way for all people and cultures to understand? Why must he choose favorites and select the Israelites as his “chosen” people? Seems rather unjust, don’t you think?
You spoke of arrogance, and I think that its extraordinarily arrogant to suggest that 1) your interpreation of the Bible is correct, and 2) that God exclusively gave “His Word” to one culture.
Why do people insist on identifying God through the interpretation of a single people?
March 12th, 2006 at 1:02 am
Very good point.
Another question… is what happened to every person on the planet BEFORE they “heard the gospel”?
I presume they all went to hell? Well.. if THEY didn’t have the bible.. hey… didn’t they?
lol.
Ultimately, it is the spirit within us that determines our relationship with God. If our spirit is alive (we have a relationship with God), then we go to heaven. If not, then we go on to an eternity without God.
I believe there are many PATHS to make our spirit alive, although ultimately there is only one WAY.
:)
March 12th, 2006 at 2:24 am
Garland and Secret Friend,
Ok, you’ve made it clear that you don’t like what I said. You also seem to think that I’m on the highway to hell (correct me if I’m wrong about that). What you haven’t done is ANSWER what I’ve said. It’s not enough to say you disagree with me or say that it doesn’t matter because I (allegedly) follow other faiths. Nothing I said in my post above directly references another religion. And even if it did, if there’s a valid point that it brings up, that still merits a response.
Secret Friend, I did read the first line. I spoke to you about what *you* posted, because if you’re posting it to endorse it, you get to answer for it.
And Garland, I didn’t accuse *you* of arrogance. I labeled your words as arrogant…and I’m afraid I have to do so yet again.
I’m not looking for either one of you to defend yourselves. I haven’t attacked anyone’s person. I like people. What I’m having a go at is your ideas….so, if you want to defend them, I’m interested to see what you have to say for your “brain children”. I really hope that we can all successfully leap out of the world of the personal back into the world of ideas and have a grownup conversation about it. Chill out….I’m not assuming that what you say here is actually who you are. It’s just what you think, and it’s good for everybody to have what they think challenged (while who they are gets to feel secure…I’m all about that). So, challenge me back….it’ll be fun…. Every time we learn something new and change our ideas, who we are as people has the chance to grow. For me, that’s great, no matter how it happens…truth is truth, and you should have enough faith in the brain you’ve been given to trust that you’ll know the difference between truth and a lie. I eagerly await the rest of the conversation.
March 12th, 2006 at 2:25 am
Henri,
I agree; however, I am unsure of your usage/meaning of “way”.
There are, indeed, many roads that one can take in order to achieve a healthy relationship with God. The problem here, is that so many people tend to characterize God, label Him, or confine him to a very restricted realm of understanding. How foolish, to presume that we can only know God through the Bible/Jesus. Certainly, there are many great spiritual leaders, visionaries, humanitarians, revolutionaries, etc. who have found the Kingdom of Heaven without Christianity or “The Word”.
You give me the impression that when you use “WAY” you are referring to Jesus?
Jesus taught the “way”, but I also think many other great teachers throughout history have also provided the “way”–Did, however, Jesus offer the most meaningful method in which to achieve the Kingdom of Heaven/the “way” in our lives? Probably, but this is debatable.
March 12th, 2006 at 2:40 am
I agree. Although we have no way to know who did and who did not. I suspect there are many people who we “think” are saved… who actually are not. And many who we think are NOT saved.. who actually are. Only God may judge a person, and it is a dangerous road if we choose to follow [insert leader here] because we think they are the “right” way… without also listening to the God-given spirit within us. (And our conscience.)
You may be correct, and I will never presume to try and convince you otherwise. I firmly believe that if one’s spirit is in a “right” (restored) relationship with God, and one’s conscience is working correctly… then the “WAY” is found for that person.
Are there multiple “WAYS” to make one’s spirit alive? I don’t know. My spirit tells me to be *very* careful about this, because I think one of the biggest deceptions of “the bad guy” is to confuse people with false salvation. For me, my spirit has never suggested or agreed that there is another way besides the Jesus of the bible.
That being said, I do believe that there were people who were “saved” before the bible was written, and before Jesus appeared.
But I think this method of thinking is extremely dangerous, and can often be used as an excuse. I have known many people who supress their conscience, because they try to intellectualize how there could be multiple “ways” to God. As a result, they become deceived and begin to believe “all” ways are equally valid.
I have known some muslims who I believe know the same God as me. I believe they are saved, in the same sense that I am saved. They simply give their God a different name. But I think this is the exception, and of course ultimately, it is not for me to judge who is “right” and who is “wrong”.
In the same way I don’t believe is is “necessary to “go to church”…. I think God judges based on our heart, which only he can see and understand. When we die, stand in front of God, and have a choice to accept the saving grace of jesus.. some might call Jesus by a different name.
:)
March 12th, 2006 at 5:25 am
Henri,
Are you then not simply arguing that the people who think the most like you (your friends the Muslims) are the ones who are going to heaven? That seems more than a little dangerous, too. Are you saying that these people are going to heaven because you’ve gotten close enough to them to see that your beliefs and theirs are in a certain alignment, but you’re assuming that other people who describe themselves as Muslims must not share those same alignments, simply because you don’t happen to know them and they haven’t made themselves accountable to you? I don’t really buy it….it sounds too much like an idea that exists to cover the speaker’s ass (no offense…I mean that only as a candid statement of argument, not as a personal attack).
It seems to me that we can’t really use our feelings as an accurate barometer for who’s “right” and who’s “wrong”, because human beings are by nature drawn to what is familiar, and we are repulsed by what is unfamiliar. Now, I use these terms loosely…sometimes a thing is unfamiliar in itself, but has enough in common with what we already know to make us comfortable, and sometimes something that appears similar to what we already know has something else about it (relating to our experience) that repels us. I don’t think there’s a good way around this problem if we think about ourselves as a species…and if we can’t account for ourselves in that way, then there are some significant holes in your theory that need to be discussed.
As for “dangerous” theological ideas….isn’t any theology (or no theology, for that matter) dangerous? Aren’t we all taking the same risk, theoretically….it’s just that some of us are sharing the blueprints of our personal risk with a lot of other people. We’re all still gambling with our souls, aren’t we….and in the end, that’s all we get to hang onto, no matter how many other people we convinced or didn’t convince along the way. I’m not saying that means we shouldn’t try — indeed, this idea only increases our responsibility. I’m saying that none of us should delude ourselves into thinking that any theological belief is safe. Safety isn’t an option that’s available to us…it’s only an illusion that humans invent to make themselves feel better about living in a volatile, unpredictable universe where we don’t know for sure how our own story will end and we don’t know for sure what we can do about it in the meantime. In the words of Mr. Beaver:
“Safe? Of course he isn’t safe. But, he’s good.”
March 12th, 2006 at 8:17 am
“Do not follow other gods, the gods of the peoples around you; for the Lord your God , who is among you, is a JEALOUS GOD and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land.” Deuteronomy 6:14-15
“When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations–the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you–and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totaly. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, FOR THEY WILL TURN YOUR SONS AWAY FROM FOLLOWING ME TO SERVE OTHER GODS, and the Lord’s anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire. For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. THE LORD YOUR GOD HAS CHOSEN YOU OUT OF ALL THE PEOPLES ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH TO BE HIS PEOPLE, HIS TREASURED POSSESSION. THE LORD DID NOT SET HIS AFFECTION ON YOU AND CHOOSE YOU BECAUSE YOU WERE MORE NUMEROUS THAN OTHER PEOPLES, FOR YOU WERE THE FEWEST OF ALL PEOPLES.” Deuteronomy 7:1-6
“…be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, ‘How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same.’ YOU MUST NOT WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD IN THEIR WAY, BECAUSE IN WORSHIPING THEIR GODS, THEY DO ALL KINDS OF DETESTABLE THINGS THE LORD HATES…” Deuteronomy 12:30b-31a
“When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there.” Deuteronomy 18:9
“He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me, scatters” Luke 11:23′
“Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division.” Luke 12:51
“Make every effort to enter through the NARROW door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.” Luke 13:24
“He said to them, ‘You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God’s sight.” Luke 16:15
“I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by SOME OTHER WAY, is a thief and a robber. The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep. The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice….I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved…” John 10:1-5, 9a
“Jesus answered, “I am the WAY and the TRUTH and the life. NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME.” John 14:6
March 12th, 2006 at 8:58 am
Garland,
I suppose this is more directed at Micah and Henri than me, but I’m going to tackle it anyway *rolls up sleeves*:
I’m ignoring the Deuteronomy scriptures. They don’t have bearing on the current subject….they’re historical documentation of events that took place under the old “eye for an eye” covenant.
Luke 11:23 — not an argument. That’s Jesus talking about casting out demons and defending himself against the accusation that he was doing it by the power of the devil. Actually, Jesus saying that is the same as me saying that the fact that Buddhist monks do good things for people means they’re probably not actually working for Satan. If you agree with Jesus on this one, you also sorta have to agree with me…
Luke 12:51 — could be used as an argument for or against you. Obviously there’s division happening here, which according to this scripture is a sign of Christ’s presence. Jesus was saying that his coming wasn’t going to bring a reign of peace and that people weren’t necessarily going to understand one another or agree. He was right about that one.
Luke 13:24 — This is just Jesus saying that following him isn’t a spectator sport, and that the people who treat it as such aren’t doing what they need to do. Context, Garland, context.
Luke 16:15 — Directed at the Pharisees, the pre-eminent church leaders and moneygrubbers of the time. Sort of like Pat Robertson & Co. (oops, did I say that?). They were fighting for the dominant paradigm, looking to put Jesus down on technicalities of the law. Again, not what’s happening here.
John 10:1-5, 9a — Again, Jesus is speaking to the Pharisees. The way I see it, he’s saying that following empty rules isn’t enough for people…guilt (following a stranger) isn’t enough for people. People need relationship with a shepherd, with the Divine Nature. I’m not arguing against that, and I don’t think anyone else is, either.
John 14:6 This can be seen either as an inclusive or an exclusive statement. You’ve chosen exclusive…I choose inclusive. Look at the context…Thomas asked how they could follow Christ to where he was going. Jesus replied with the words you quoted. That’s Jesus comforting a friend, saying that every time anyone comes to God, they’re coming through Jesus. Anything extra you tack onto that is just something extra you’re tacking on….and it’s not what Jesus said. Jesus said that those who come to God come through Jesus…and who are you to say who has come to the Father and who hasn’t?
In short, none of these scriptures proves your point or disproves Micah’s, Henri’s, or mine. I enjoyed the reading, though.
March 12th, 2006 at 9:20 am
I understand.. but what of the millions of souls who lived and died before Jesus made this remark?
If there was a plan of salvation for those people.. then I’m not sure everyone isn’t covered by the same grace and same plan.
The classic argument is the Native Indians of north america. Missionaries flocked to the continent because they believed the indiginous people were going straight to hell, because they didn’t “believe” in Jesus.
I don’t agree with that thinking. I think the grace of God is able to be extended to EVERYONE regardless of whether they’ve “heard” of jesus or not.
In the same way, I believe that the grace of God is extended to muslims, and followers of other religions who have never heard the true “gospel”.
I believe EVERYONE has the opportunity to “accept Christ”, in whatever way/shape/form that opportunity might be. Only God knows what is that opportunity. For me, it is “traditional” christianity and the “traditional” message of the gospel, but I will not presume that someone elses “path” to salvation might indeed be a lot different then my own.
:)
March 12th, 2006 at 10:02 am
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 5:17-20
“Jesus replied: ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind’ ‘This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.’ ” Matthew 22:37-40
“What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?” Romans 6:1-2
“Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have thier minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.” Romans 8:5-8
March 12th, 2006 at 10:57 am
Garland,
Ok, let’s try this again:
Matthew 5:17-20
The point here is that Jesus says that his doctrine is the true fulfillment of the law….that he’s not taking anything away from what came before, but revealing what the whole point of it was from the beginning. No one’s debating that.
Matthew 22:37-40
Again, more of the same. No one is debating these points either.
Romans 6:1-2
This is one of my favorites…it’s all about taking responsibility, and I think it’s one of the most useful things Paul ever said. But again, it doesn’t prove anything for the point I think you’re still trying to make. It’s not a word of exclusivity unless you choose to read it that way.
Romans 8:5-8
The sinful mind is hostile to God. Ok, fair enough…..but this gets back to an old, unresolved argument between you and I about the nature of God. If we don’t know what the full nature of God is, we can’t really know whether we’re hostile to it or not. So, it’s no more fair for you to say that I’m hostile to God because I refuse to agree with your explanation for who/what God is than it is for me to accuse you of the same thing.
We’re at an impasse….and I’m sorry about that. My guess is that as many times as you post a list of scriptures, I and others will look at them and see something different than what you see. That’s just life, and it’s not a very interesting part of life to put to the test, since it pretty much seems to come out the same every time. If we’re going to accomplish something in this conversation, everyone is going to have to describe their perspective and agree to respect the perspective of others….this means acknowledging the intelligence and validity of others along with the possibility that one’s own perspective may change in the course of the conversation. I’m game if you are.
March 12th, 2006 at 11:25 am
nice… this really is getting fun you know… two educated intelligent women butting heads… the stupid thing is, we probably agree about the most fundamental things…
I don’t think you are “getting” what I’m trying to say or maybe you are just too blind to see it… How about we find something we can agree on?
As for my arrogance…I don’t think it is arrogant to declare your beliefs with conviction…it is bold.
I still don’t understand why it is that you think you must contest EVERYTHING that I say. I suppose it was wrong of me to assume that we do not know or serve the same God. Forgive me of that.
March 12th, 2006 at 12:17 pm
You say that my arguements aren’t enough to tempt you to change your way of thinking…well vice versa. It seems that any time someone disagrees with your point of view or gives an arguement to contest your challenge you tell them that what they said isn’t valid…when sometimes it is valid…or has at least a measure of merit. You seem to be almost like a little child with your eyes closed, your ears plugged, singing a dumb song while others are talking.
What I quoted in Matthew was to bring to account your dismissal of Deuteronomy.
As for the nature of God…our old discussion…you still have not answered a question I posed to you… “If God had no personality…no signature…nothing that made Him who He is…how would we ever recognize whether it is Him who speaks or our own thoughts…or even the babblings of Satan himself? What is it that tells you that God is speaking to you? or do you even listen?”
March 12th, 2006 at 12:56 pm
Garland,
I don’t contest everything you say….only the things I disagree with.
Again, I never said YOU were arrogant…I said your WORDS are arrogant. I think they are. You’ve now called me childish and blind. I haven’t called you anything. Once again, it’s not for you to judge whether or not I think about what people say to me. If we’re assuming fair play, you must assume that I’m processing what people say and responding in a rational fashion. To say otherwise is to assume I’m not reasonable, in which case we shouldn’t be talking to begin with.
I know what you were getting at with the Matthew quote. I get it. I just disagree.
Here’s my answer to your questions (though I recall dealing with it in a less direct way before):
We can’t tell for sure. We will never know for sure. In the Voyage of the Dawn Trader, Rathmandu’s daughter said, “You can’t know. You can only believe.” I think you and I probably DO agree on that point (you said you were looking for common ground…hopefully this is it). The point of divergence happens on what we choose to do about it. All of us have an infinite number of choices to make in the world about who we listen to and what we believe. We can either choose to stick to what someone else has always said, strike out completely on our own, or do something else somewhere in between those two extremes. We’re both going in the middle (more common ground), but at very different spots along the continuum.
Anyone can be deceived….and in fact, all of us are deceived at every moment about some things. No perspective is THE perspective, and even if we could get a look at God’s perspective, it’d be too big to do us any good. We are stuck with what we are, so we have to work with it. For me, that means expecting the unexpected and looking for goodness and truth and kindness….and room for awareness and growth. Those things are the breath of God for me. That is the signature….the absence of a final answer. That’s the manifestation of God that makes the most sense to me, the one I feel myself held accountable for, the one that has brought fruit to my life, the one that casts out fear. That may change. I expect it to change. But for right now, that’s what I’ve got.
This is much more personal than I’m comfortable being in this venue, so if you have further personal questions for me, please direct them to my personal email, which you can find by following my link to my blog and from there to my profile.
March 12th, 2006 at 1:28 pm
garland,
Do you ever close your Bible and allow God to speak to you, or do you always find His voice exclusively from reading/recalling scripture based on YOUR INTERPRETATION?
As Jiminy pointed out, you are very keen on quoting scripture, however, most of the time you seem to be exploiting the context for your own means. This, unfortunately, is what many Christians do.
There is a lot to be gained from reading the Bible, however, it should not be taken literally, and should be read by its original historical context — if Jesus were here today, I suspect he would use a different method to help people better understand and grasp his understanding of the Kingdom of Heaven — do you agree?
Our culture is quite a bit different than that of Jesus’, his words were aimed at a very oppressed people suffering from destitution and hopelessness.
Jesus’ message is one of hope, strength, and ultimately, gave people who had nothing something to live for. His teaching emphasized the struggles his people were going through, and helped people achieve a level of understanding that allowed them to spiritually rise above their misery. Jesus, unhappy with the condition of his people, decided to abandon the old way (which was not working), and gave people something better than what they currently had.
Certainly, Jesus’ words hold truth and meaning in our lives today, but we must be careful when applying his teaching to our own modern way of living. We can not simply take his instructions and use them out of their historical context and apply them directly to the way we live — this is silly.
The Bible will offer you insight, to be sure, but please, try to understand the greater message of the Bible, and do not insist on forcing yourself and others to live within the boundaries of scripture that was directed at those living in Palestine thousands of years ago.
Please, tell me, what is it that allows YOU to distinguish the voice of God? Try to answer this question on a personal level, and suppress your urge to qoute scripture or Christian doctrine. Our relationship with God is not about religion, its about a personal level of spiritual understanding. If Christianity offers you fulfillment, purpose, happiness, and a healthy spirit, that is great — wonderful! — however, some people might identify with God in a more meaningful way through Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Paganism, Taoism, Buddhism, etc., etc., etc. — why is it that you CANNOT accept this?
Did God personally voice his disgust to you concerning other religious and cultural beliefs?
Why, and how is your God different then that of other religions? Why can’t they all be the same God, just different interprations and manifestations of understanding?
Lastly, read what Henri has to say, and think about it to yourself, without incorporating your instinctual dependence of scripture and traditional church thinking — expand your mind, and understand that the love of God exists for all those who embrace it.
It is very painful for me to think about the amount of lives that have been ruined and destroyed at the hands of Christian missionaries, who have tried throughout history to strangle the idigenous beliefs of cultures that have been preserved generationally since their beginnings. I suppose Satan birthed those ideas into them, and it is up to the white man to deliver them from their primitive and savage beliefs?
That is arrogance.
March 12th, 2006 at 1:44 pm
Henri, I am glad to see that we agree on this.
March 12th, 2006 at 1:51 pm
You bet. I firmly believe there are people of EVERY religion who have a “right” relationship with God. It might take another form then we think is “right”, but only God can make that distinction.
I do also feel, however, that is is relatively easy for people to become deceived, and convince themselves that they are “searching” when in fact they have already found and disregarded the truth, as it was revealed to them in their spirit.
March 12th, 2006 at 1:58 pm
It is unbelievable to me how decieved you are…I too used to think the same way as you Micah…How can I help you understand?…alas, I cannot. I love God’s people and I love people that do not belong to Him yet. I wish that I could express to you the love and forgiveness that He has poured out on me. If I have come across as arrogant…again, please forgive me…I was really just trying to defend myself. It is my great and heartfelt desire that each of you know the Lord personally. I quoted scripture because you did not want to listen to me…so I thought maybe you would listen to His Word…oh well, it was a good try. However, it is becoming more evident to me as I discuss things with some of you that I am not among people of like mind or heart…nor are people who believe as I do welcome here. Forgive me for intruding on your discussions. You think that because you have an “open” view of religion that you have found truth. I hope you are right for your sake.
March 12th, 2006 at 2:04 pm
Well, I think that’s over-reacting a little.
The only people who aren’t welcome here have the name of “financial blessing”.
I certainly have appreciated your comments, and hope you continue to post. But it’s important to know that trying to “convert” someone when they aren’t “ready” to be converted is somewhat pointless and will only result in your own frustration. (As you’ve already noticed.)
We’re all on the same journey here. Together. Equally.
March 12th, 2006 at 2:07 pm
Henri,
Amen.
March 12th, 2006 at 2:51 pm
“it’s important to know that trying to “convert” someone when they aren’t “ready” to be converted is somewhat pointless”
I agree with this statement entirely, but I have not desired to “convert” anyone! I have come here with good intentions…believing I was among my peers…others who, raised as I was, could understand where I am coming from. However, instead of finding value in my comments I have only heard criticism. I didn’t expect everyone to be believers here, nor did I expect everyone to agree with what I had to say. It seems to me that many of you have not yet abandoned your own bitterness from your authoritarian and judgmental upbringing that we all share to veiw the world in it’s entirety…including the possibility that the Bible is, in fact, the Holy inspired Word of God, that believing in something based on “faith” is not a ridiculous notion, and the list goes on. For instance, I used to think that Paul’s encouragement for women to “submit to thier own husbands” was a tired, old-fashioned, representation of the culture of it’s time. It wasn’t until I actually tried it whole-heartedly that I discovered it’s rewards for me. What I’m trying to say is that we can’t just count something as bad or untrue because we had a bad experience with it…and we shouldn’t make assumptions about God that make Him more easy to deal with in our little human minds. If you are going to be open to God for who He is, you have to be willing to accept things that maybe don’t make sense to you at first. “His ways are higher than our ways, and His thought our thoughts”
March 12th, 2006 at 2:52 pm
Hey, how do you make those previous quotes in gray?
March 12th, 2006 at 3:04 pm
garland,
I am beginning to understand, after a short time, some of Jiminy’s frustration.
If you care to elaborate on how unbelievably “decieved” I am, please do so. But, please, do not suggest something unless you are willing to offer up something in its defense.
All that I was trying to do was better understand your beliefs without the interference of scripture and church doctrine (as these prove to hold very different meanings to each individual) — I guess, this is not possible? You are not able to understand things or articulate yourself beyond The Bible?
You have not come across as arrogant to me, and I do not wish to imply that, however, I wanted to point out that some of the ideas you espouse are quite arrogant.
It is unbelievable to me, how so many people can dismiss, essentially the same teachings, only manifested differently, and condemn them as being deceptive or sinful.
The point that I am trying to make, is that if Jesus grew up in East Asia, he probably would have been Buddhist or Taoist, etc — just like if you, or I, grew up in another culture, we would probably have a different conceptual understanding of God than we do now. Is this not a fair assessment?
Jesus grew up in the Jewish tradition, he dreamed of something better, and sought to change it–he did this by expanding and building off of peoples already established understanding of God based on Jewish tradition.
I think that your origin of birth/regional location in the world largely determines how you perceive God, and understand your environment. We happened to grow up in a western civilization (I am assuming, correct me if I am wrong), America, which happens to be heavily influenced by Christian beliefs — do you agree? Since birth, we have been taught to perceive and understand God in terms of Christianity, which explains why it is EASIER for us to relate to God when its presented in such a manner.
HOWEVER
Other peoples of the world, outside occidental influence, have grown up with a very different understanding of God — is this understanding wrong? How do we determine the correct way of characterizing God? God can be seen everywhere, and is all pervasive, yes?
Certainly there are those who have found God in nature, the spiritual realm, the cosmos/universe, etc — how are these things contrary to the Christian understanding of God? How is balance/imbalance different than righteousness/sin? These are all just words, aren’t they? Characterizations?
What it comes down to is the quality of your spiritual health, and your ability to become one with God, your creator–is that a fair assessment? Did Jesus teach something different than that, if so, please let me know.
I know that your heart is good, garland, and that you probably have developed a very meaningful relationship with God, this is not something I am questioning — I accept the path you have chosen, and understand that it has brought you success, comfort, healing, etc. — but, for you to suggest that your method is the only method — that is where the arrogance comes into play.
Garland, why do you enjoy insinuating that I, or other members of this blog, do not know your God? What are you basing this determination on?
I am certain that the joy, love, purpose, fulfillment, and spirit, that I experience, has all been given to me by the same God that you enjoy. Why do you insist on judging the quality of my life because I perceive him in a different manner than you?
March 12th, 2006 at 3:33 pm
garland,
Also, I do not mean to discourage you from posting here, I would feel horrible if that were the case. This blog serves as an important forum for discussion, does it not? Critical thinking should be welcome, if not, maybe I should find myself unwelcome?
I value your insight, and respect your thoughts and opinions. I just choose to disagree, does that make me sinful?
You spoke of faith, and I try to exercise faith in my life in real meaningful ways. I think most of the faith Jesus taught, goes way beyond the Bible and whether it was “divinely inspired”. Do you have faith in God? Or just in His Word? Those questions might appear to be synonymous, but to me they are very different.
March 12th, 2006 at 5:39 pm
Great dialogue!
“His ways are higher than than our ways” Exactly. How big is your God?
March 12th, 2006 at 6:04 pm
Don’t start throwing words like”Critical thinking” around here!!! We dont want no kinda talk like that around these parts…
March 12th, 2006 at 6:32 pm
I do not mind if you disagree with me. I can not and will not force or intimidate you into thinking or believing as I do. As for whether it is sinful or not…I don’t know if it is sin or not…besides, sin can be forgiven if it is acknowledged as sin and repented from… All I am saying is that I HAVE thought of things as you do now. I HAVE considered that God in His infinity could be “the great spirit” as was revealed to the native americans, or that we could in fact be reincarnated, and so on…but, I now realize that that way of thinking is very wrong. By becoming “tolerant of other religions” and even incorporating other religious beliefs into Christianity, by speaking in ways that are more politically correct so as not to ruffle anyones feathers, by saying that God is so infinate and vast that He is entirely untouchable and beyond our ability to understand in any capacity so why bother, I am fashioning God into something that is more comfortable for me to tolerate. It is much easier to say THAT than to try to explain why God would destroy pretty much all of His creation in a flood, or why He allows people to suffer, or why He picks and chooses who He blesses and who He reveals Himself to. Regardless, it is better to take the hard road if it is the right one…even if it seems that no one else agrees…than to take the easy, see how I’m right because everyone agrees with me road. Like I said, you are welcome to disagree! the TRUTH will eventually come out…
I do have faith in God. The Bible is not the only place where we can hear from Him, but not everything we hear is from God. How come no one can answer my question? What is it that tells you something is of God? or do you even question whether something is of God or not? Remember Satan is the Father of Lies…I bet he knows how to fake it… Do you accept everything? or nothing? How do you tell the difference?
March 12th, 2006 at 8:57 pm
The reason I’m here is to find out what people go thru in order to actually develop their beliefs.
garland
“By becoming “tolerant of other religions” and even incorporating other religious beliefs into Christianity, by speaking in ways that are more politically correct so as not to ruffle anyones feathers, by saying that God is so infinate and vast that He is entirely untouchable and beyond our ability to understand in any capacity so why bother, I am fashioning God into something that is more comfortable for me to tolerate.”
Q. “By becoming “tolerant of other religions” and even incorporating other religious beliefs into Christianity”
A. You would be allowing yourself to rise above the mold you currently exist in.
Q. “by speaking in ways that are more politically correct so as not to ruffle anyones feathers”
A. You would be going to church on sunday.
Q. “by saying that God is so infinate and vast that He is entirely untouchable and beyond our ability to understand in any capacity so why bother
A. would be a poor choice of options.
Thanks for sharing garland
March 12th, 2006 at 10:11 pm
garland,
If you could just humor me for a moment, I am just curious as to your age? I am not interested in knowing the exact amount of years you have been living, but, my guess, is that you are a lot older than I?
I am in my early twenties, I would assume, you are probably in your 30s or 40s? I am only bringing this up, because I think it is interesting to understand the phases that people go through, and the flexibility of their mind. You have chosen to be very inflexible, as far as your interpretation of God, which is fine, but I think this has a lot to do with your age — maybe I am wrong, but it was just something that came to mind. When people get older, and draw closer to death, they tend to want to cling on to ideas and beliefs that offer them security and comfort. You have reached a point in your life where you have stopped questioning what it is that you believe in, am I correct in thinking this?
Whether what you believe in is right or wrong, or somewhere in between, you have chosen to stop searching for answers, and have settled on Christianity as absolute truth in your life — again, there is nothing wrong with this — all I am saying is that I am open to many possibilties of spiritual understanding. I include aspects of Christian beliefs into my life, as well as the beliefs of other traditions, I am growing and experiencing life, and have many questions that I have yet to find personal closure on. Does that mean that I am lost? Living in sin? Walked away from God?
You can tell me all you want how deceived I am, and how I have given into the lies of Satan, but this does not do anything that satisfy my thirst for spiritual understanding. Religion has caused a great deal of damage to humanity, many horrible atrocities have been the result of Christianity. Many evil people have used it as a political arm for control, and they continue to do so in our present age (e.g. The Bush Administration)– is it irrational for someone to be cautious of a belief system, such as Christianity, that yields so much power and influence over people?
If you choose to believe that the Bible was divinely inspired by God, then this is your choice, and you can find security in that if you want. But there is a lot of evidence that would suggest otherwise. The Bible we use today has gone through many hands, and whether it was originally inspired by God or not, who knows, but I do not believe that the version(s) we presently have can be viewed in such a manner. We can extract general themes and ideas, but like I said earlier, we cannot use it as a literal basis to conduct our lives.
I will try to respond to this question, garland, but please understand, that you have done nothing to address the VAST MAJORITY of the questions I have given you. You continue to ignore and overlook the things I have said, and instead, have retaliated with MORE scripture and MORE condemnation.
Also, please answer your own question, since you are so confident in your own ability to determine the voice of God in your life.
I think, that like all forms of life created by God, we are able to communicate and spiritually discern his voice. We can do this a number of ways. Originally, like animals, I think that we were instinctually capable of understanding our role and purpose in the eyes of God, this ability, however, has been heavily polluted over the years. We no longer live in balance and harmony with God, and have continually exploited and unnaturally manipulated everything he has given us for our own benefit, without regard for other forms of life. Essentially, we have removed ourselves from living in faith, and in the hands of God, and decided to abandon his protection by attempting to take things into our own hands, and manipulate things like resources and the life of others. This has generated a huge imbalance, and caused man to live in pain and suffering. Does it ever strike you as odd, that humans suffer and are afflicted by things such as cancer, depression, suicide, egregious violence, etc.? Most people would probably assume this is because of sin, and I agree. Only I characterize it as imbalance, and arrogance. Animals do not exhibit this kind of pain and suffering, they live peacefully and according to a universal system of order that maintains balance. Humans have corrupted this balance, and as a consequence we suffer.
So, in my own experience, I tend to believe that God reveals himself to us in the greatest way, when we restore that balance with him and live according to the order of the universe/God.
I wait on things until I understand my spirit to agree with it. I have no expectations, and try to live my life however God delivers it to me, with a greatful heart, and I pay attention closely for his direction. And, of course, I pray and meditate regularly and ask for his divine wisdom and insight into my life. On a daily basis, I ask and invite God to overwhelm my spirit and consume my life.
For me, a large part of my unity with God, comes from my constant pursuit of balance with my environment/God. I try to allow God to use me in whatever situation or circumstance I might find myself in, and try to make the best out of it, without any expectations. Everything changes, nothing in this world is permanent, if we let go, and allow God to influence our lives freely, we can live in peace.
I believe that the closer we maintain this balance with God, the easier it is for us to discern his voice and wisdom in our lives.
So, in conclusion to your question, I wait on God until I find my spirit to be in agreement, and constantly seek him in my life. I take life as it comes, without regret, and try to enjoy and make the best out of whatever I am GIVEN by Him — good or bad, its all the same. And it is in this manner that I discern the voice of God in my life.
March 13th, 2006 at 2:15 am
There are two ways to do this:
1) If you want to quote someone’s whole post, you can just click the “Quote this comment” link at the bottom of their comment. Don’t use this for big posts, however.
2) If you want to quote “some” of their post, you can just do this:
2.1) Use your mouse to select and then copy whatever text you want to quote.
2.2) Go to the “leave a new comment” area to start the comment.
2.3) Click the “b-quote” button to “open” the quote.
2.4) Paste the text you previously copied.
2.5) Click the “b-quote” button again to “close” the quote.
Cheers!
March 13th, 2006 at 8:36 am
There is a difference between “critical thinking” and “being critical” (or as some have accused, “being bitter”). How does one draw the line between them? What measuring device do we have to tell the difference?
When it comes to philosophy and religion, each person has some “truth” they believe in - that is their measuring stick. Not everyone uses the same stick, and we’ll have differences of opinion on who is “right”.
But in my opinion, some of you here seem to be arguing that as long as you have some kind of measuring stick, that’s OK, and yours is just as good as mine. But that is false thinking, and is the same as having no measuring stick at all - it is worthless. If you are unable to believe in some Absolute Truth - a measuring stick greater than yours - then you have nothing to argue and your criticisms of other people’s beliefs in their own measuring stick is a pointless waste of time. Saying everyone is right when the measuring sticks are different lengths is a folly. But to pick apart someone who says “mine is right” or “yours is wrong”, when you say that it’s OK to believe in anything, is philosophically hyprocritical and petty. I would respect someone if he was a devout Muslim, at least I knew had some conviction in his life that guided his beliefs and actions. I have little respect for those who say that all beliefs are correct. To agree would be to deny what I believe to be Absolute Truth.
That being said, it is my understanding that the purpose of this blog is to satirize the behavior of CBC leadership, because they seem to disagree with what Christ taught about the Church, specifically tithing. Because I participate, I have some Absolute Truth I believe in regarding the Church and giving, and even if it doesn’t change things at CBC, I know others will read it and perhaps be enlightened or at least get a chuckle from the “jokes”. In that respect, most of us who post here are on the same side.
I agree that many of the stories here are encouraging, perhaps even cathartic, to read, because they tell us that we’re not alone in thinking that something is wrong at CBC. It’s also an indication that we have some Truth, perhaps even an Absolute Truth, with which we judge this situation. That’s good! But it seems hypocritical to me to have some here say that there is no Absolute Truth with which to measure CBC!
So, if you disagree with the idea that there is no Absolute Truth about God, Jesus, the Church (and tithing), then why are you here?
More specifically, why do you feel the need to criticize the beliefs of those that have expressed beliefs of Absolute Truth?
March 13th, 2006 at 9:15 am
Okay, I am in my early thirties…and I am not afraid to admit it. Thank you for your reference about “drawing closer to death” (sarcastic). I have not stopped questioning my beliefs…I don’t believe that anyone does…and if they do they are choosing ignorance above truth. I have many questions that I have not found answers to…many that the truth has not been revealed to me…
“Lost” means you haven’t found Him yet (which although you question your faith right now I believe you are headed in the right direction). “Living in sin” means that you are doing things that you know are wrong regardless of the consequences (which you first have to acknowledge that what you are doing is a sin so I wouldn’t say that is true either). “Walked away from God” means that you have turned away from Him on purpose and moved away from His truth (now, this one is not exactly true either because you seem to still be seeking Him and desiring to know His truth)… Perhaps as you said before that it is just a stage…maybe because of age…or maybe not…I do not know… I do know…what I was trying to say (I feel so inadaquate in my explainations–but here goes) was that it is DANGEROUS to allow other religious beliefs to infiltrate your belief system because eventually it draws you away from the one true God. Also, God is not PLEASED when we try to worship Him in the same ways as other religions. (denominational differences is NOT what I am talking about…I have encountered believers that are Catholic, Mormon, and Jehovah Witness) Have you ever looked into Judaism? I learned a lot about what Jesus really meant about things he said and about the Old Testament when I researched. The insight is unbelievable and has made certain passages seem a lot clearer than ever before.
I have not always believed that the Bible was entirely inspired by God…remember, I am a product of a Bible college (not PBC) that actually discussed audience, culture, and historical happenings in context with the scripture. I think it wasn’t until I just decided to try it out…as an experiment…that I began to believe it’s inspiration. If any of you know science…it’s all hypotheses’ and theories until they’re tested. I just, for once in my life, gave it a fair chance…in spite of the trajedy of my upbringing.
I have heard God speak to me since I was a little girl in prophetic ways. Some might say that I have a little ESP, but I do not call it that at all. It is not something that I control. Usually, when He speaks in that way it is short and to the point…I don’t remember Him telling me things in a long drawn out “prophetic” way. I have learned to recognize the difference between what He says and what I think myself (His “voice” is different…His is solid and unwavering…it pushes me forward). I know you don’t want me to share scripture, but here is one anyway…”YOu may say to yourselves, ‘How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?’ If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.” Deut. 18:21-22 Now, I know it sounds simple but, look at what happened to Balaam. He was paid to curse Israel, but only blessings came out of his mouth. He was a true prophet. There are a lot of things in the Bible that seem like simple solutions…but have you ever tried them? I have also felt Him…walked with Him…all day one day. It was as if the heavens opened up and the light of His love shone all around me…the whole day