24 Comments To This Post

1. magledon said:    
   March 24th, 2006 at 1:58 pm

   “We are a “college” in most ways, but are not when it comes to accreditation issues.”

   x=accreditation issues… huh.

   maybe we could expound on these and get to the bottom of this issue before more young christian clones get sucked into wasting x= years of their life!

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2. JiminyCricket81 said:    
   March 24th, 2006 at 4:55 pm

   So, these are my questions:

   What makes a college a college?

   What is a college supposed to do?

   Should a college make the world more open to the student or should it close its students in?

   If “accreditation” is the way in which PBC differs from the typical conception of “college”, what are the ways in which it is the same?

   Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t internships supposed to teach students how the real world works by getting them off campus and into the community? And have you ever heard of any other kind of internship where you have to pay to participate? (In the education field, interns actually receive pay for their work. Imagine.).

   Sorry, Larry….I don’t buy it.

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3. Karli said:    
   March 24th, 2006 at 8:09 pm

   This accreditation issue is a sore subject for a lot of us x-pbc’ers. It wasn’t always clear in the catalog, and many of us paid the price for not doing our own research apart from what was verbally told to us during orientations by faculty.
   Karli

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4. FICM said:    
   March 26th, 2006 at 12:14 pm

   I made a rather long post responding to Larry’s comments on his blog, very similar to what’s been said already. They never showed, so I guess my comments aren’t “approved”.

   Regardless, I think the most telling statement in his apology for why they do the things the way they do is this one:

   1. To more fully integrate the staff and programs of PBC with the staff and ministries of CBC

   I think this has always been the intent of the leadership of CBC. They could never give up control of the school to an independent body, even if that leadership consisted of awesome and trusted guys like Ken, Lanny, and the Larrys.

   He mentions the Master’s Commission as similar (competing) school, but at least they don’t pretend to be a college. No one is confused about the credentials you may or may not receive at the end of the course. Calling yourself a college when the degree you receive is “exempt” is akin to printing Monopoly money. Good luck taking it to the bank, and good luck to all the students & “graduates” of PBC who try to cash in their education on a career.

   Many students gave up other college choices, some with scholarships, to attend PBC. There is a culture in MFI-related churches that fosters a kind of “compulsion” to attend PBC at the expense of a secular education. Having the name “college” tends to add to the confusion of the expectations of the students. “Hey, I’m going to go serve God at PBC. I had to give up Northwestern, but at least I’m going to college.” Oops!

   I don’t care about what is taught at the school, but call a spade a spade. Don’t call it a college any more if you don’t have any intentions of becoming one. You’ve exploited the legal loophole long enough of using the name “college”. Call it what it is: City Bible School of the Bible, City Bible Internship, MFI Institute, PF’s School on teaching people to Tithe (sorry, I couldn’t resist), or whatever the hell you want to call it. Just stop using “college” in the name.

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5. Free From the Matrix said:    
   March 26th, 2006 at 7:59 pm

   I agree that CBC and PBC are deceptive in the way that they market and frame the nature and quality of PBC’s education. While a few colleges will accept some PBC classes as electives, or maybe English 101, PBC and its courses are not recognized as credible outside of the MFI world. Which, as some of you have said, is fine, as long as that reality is made clear to prospective students so that it can be taken into account as students determine what implications attending PBC might have on any future academic plans.

   I think we all know that the core purpose of PBC is to indoctrinate students with CBC’s, and therefore MFI’s, worldview/theology. Even for those who buy into it, the only use of the education is within the MFI arena; not any professional field and not even any ministry arena outside of MFI (except the myriad of “how not to do it” lessons, of course, which are valuable in non-MFI ministry and in theology). If PBC would simply add to its marketing materials that not only is its main purpose to train students for ministry in their local MFI church, that this is the ONLY thing for which PBC can/will train its students. Maybe City Bible Institute would be a more suitable name?

   The organization that all public and private higher education institutions are accredited through in our region of the US is the Northwest Commission on Colleges and Universities. Their standards for accreditation are here: http://www.nwccu.org/Standards%20and%20Policies/Guide%20for%20Self-Study/Standards%20and%20Guide.htm
   How about if we review these standards and crosswalk them with what we know of CBC/PBC and then blog about what we think CBC’s rationale is for not pursuing accreditation??

   FFTM

   P.S. If CBC wanted to be “out” with the fact that PBC does not grant “degrees,” but were still credible outside of their own domain (i.e., MFI), they could get PBC accredited through the Northwest Association of Accredited Schools (formerly the Northwest Association of Schools and Colleges), which primarily accredits K-12 schools, but also “non-degree granting post-secondary schools.” Their accreditation standards are at: http://www.oregonnaas.org/webpagefiles/05-06annualreport-supplemental.doc. At least this would provide some credibility to PBC outside of the CBC domain and perhaps allow some of its courses to transfer to actual colleges, which would enable PBC to cast a bigger net.

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6. Karli said:    
   March 26th, 2006 at 11:17 pm

   FICM & FFM–good comments.

   Back in the spring of 1995, I was told by PBC faculty during an orientation for prospective students that there was a special transfer agreement in place between PBC & PSU, which was my primary reason for choosing PBC. At best, I hoped for some credits to eventually transfer to PSU as electives, and at the same time, I hoped to receive the added benefit of studying the Bible, since at the time, I aspired to become involved on the mission field. At the time, I was told there was an advocate at PSU in the admissions dept. that would help me through the transfer process and facilitate the transfer of PBC credits to PSU. As it turns out, this “advocate” had her hands tied-she had no power at all, and other than some music credits, PSU did not honor PBC credits–bottom line. So, none of my credits transferred, except for my PE credits. In fact, because I tried to transfer from PBC to PSU, I got completely screwed over, because, 2 F’s from PBC in PE DID transfer in, and to this day, I have 2 F’s on my transcript. The ONLY way I could have had those removed is to re-enroll at PBC and take those PE classes over. And I wasn’t about to give one more cent to PBC after how I was treated, and worse yet, misled academically. And, by the way, the PE classes at PBC were set up as an honor system, and because I was trying to be a good Christian person at PBC by being honest on my PE card when I could have just as easily lied and said I ran my miles, I received F’s. Of course, when I did try to exercise, I ran the risk of getting raped or mugged on Rocky Butte. It would have been NICE if the PE class I paid for was actually a class I could attend instead of having to facilitate myself after working all night to pay off my tuition.

   Anyway, I’m never going to be okay with how PBC left me high and dry after I worked my ass off for 3 years to pay my way through–a total of about 18K, which would have more than paid for the college degree I left PBC to get. I ended up having to pay out another 20K on that degree, a much better investment of my money.

   If I had to do things over, I would have never attended PBC. I naively trusted what I was told by the faculty–I admit that, and it was a huge lesson for me. No one from the small Christian school I was forced to attend all my life or youth pastor that ever attempted to counsel me academically could ever tell me anything other than, “Go to Bible College, because God has a calling on your life.” So, that’s what I did. I figured these adults knew more than I did, and I should trust the people God had placed in authority over my life. The biggest lesson I learned was to take authority of my own life, because I was the one that was having to pay the price for living my life by the authority of others.

   I contemplated suing PBC/CBC once for my tuition over this, but never did.

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7. magledon said:    
   March 27th, 2006 at 1:37 am

   Show Me the MONEY!!!

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8. GreySheep said:    
   March 27th, 2006 at 8:46 am

   I had a different experience at PBC than many. I had already received my Associates Degree from a community college when I decided to go there. I did it more as “taking a year off to clear my head”, ’cause at the time I was debating between ministry or business school.

   Yep, took one year at PBC to figure out it wasn’t for me and to head off to business school. And although I made a ton of great friends up there, leaving was the best decision I ever made.

   I concur with Karli on the fact that it was widely promoted that there was a two-year degree transfer relationship with PSU.

   Still….PBC is what it is…..and it shouldn’t take a rocket scientist to figure that out. Take one visit up there, look at the facilities, talk to anyone that’s had to pee out a Dorm 4 window cause you weren’t allowed to use the bathroom after 10:00pm! If it ain’t crystal clear by then, go there…you deserve to!

   That said, I do feel bad for the MFI kids that get the squeeze from their leadership to attend. You’re in for a rough one youngsters!

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9. Free From the Matrix said:    
   March 27th, 2006 at 10:15 am

   I had my B.A. before attending PBC, so I personally definitely didn’t go for the “academics” (I use that word facetiously); I went to take specific courses in specific areas (which I had to really “push” for with the faculty because I didn’t want to take all the classes or in the order in which they prefer and didn’t care about getting a “certificate”). Although I was older than the typical PBC student, my MFI pastor certainly did put the squeeze on me to go. It’s all good because as messed up as CBC and PBC are, I can look back and clearly see the Lord directing my steps, which included those places. At any rate, given my B.A., Master’s degree and doctoral coursework (which I’ve nearly completed, as well), PBC doesn’t appear anywhere on my resume.

   I did and still do feel badly for PBC students who were misled about the transferability of credits, academic credentials of PBC, etc. GreySheep, be glad you’re male and can pee out a window. We girls just had to risk demerits to relieve ourselves after the curfew. I seriously hope the rules have changed up there. One REALLY has to know God has called one there to tolerate those ridiculous rules!!

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10. Locutus said:    
    March 27th, 2006 at 10:30 am

    PBC is insane. Most of my friends have a hard time believing such a place exists, and an even harder time believing that people would willingly subject themselves to it. Demerits, curfews, and room checks. Oh my! And don’t get me started on social units.

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11. GreySheep said:    
    March 27th, 2006 at 10:38 am

    I feel for the women having to risk demerits just to pee after hours, but I’da probably traded to get away from having to shave! I hate shaving, and Mrs. Molt spotted me from MILES away whenever I’d try to get away with a day with stubble!

    My whole TCS/TCHS/PBC/BT/CBC experience can be summed up in the words “Silly Little Rules”!

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12. GreySheep said:    
    March 27th, 2006 at 10:40 am

    Don’t forget dress codes, Locutus! We were only college-aged people…we couldn’t be left to dress for ourselves, you know!

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13. Karli said:    
    March 27th, 2006 at 10:41 am

    Yes, they were so silly that is why I had a hard time respecting them & following them. I paid hundreds in fines & was continuously dormed. I would get dormed, leave the dorms, then get dormed again. I couldn’t live like that–it was too oppressive–so, I just factored in about $500 per term that I would need to pay to do what I wanted. Karli

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14. Locutus said:    
    March 27th, 2006 at 10:46 am

    I always wondered why they didn’t line us up in columns and have us goose-step down the hill to chapel every day. Using separate columns for men and women of course.

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15. GreySheep said:    
    March 27th, 2006 at 10:50 am

    Oh uh…I smell a new rule coming! Goose-stepping. Wait, is that similar to the BT-Two-Step performed during so many worship times???

    I actually heard they loosened the dress code a while back. I don’t think you have to wear a tie anymore. Just a collared shirt.

    I always felt for the women though. Seemed like they really cracked the whip on skirt length and stuff like that.

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16. Henri The Amazing said:    
    March 27th, 2006 at 4:12 pm

    Oh man.. peeing out the window. That sure brings back memories. lol.

    I remember the time we hid all the paintings in the false ceiling of the classroom building. I thought Steve Cole was finally going to burst his lid. I do feel a bit bad about how upset he got… but really… they were *pictures*… not the original gutenburg bible.

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17. Larry Taylor said:    
    March 29th, 2006 at 12:42 am

    Just for the record, I have to say I respectfully disagree with my friend’s observation about PBC’s decision to drop accreditation pursuits and become more like other internship programs around the country. Trends come and go, but Christian education that focuses on preparing men and women to effectively communicate and connect with the world has served the church reasonably well over the centuries. It was good enough for Luther, Calvin, Wesley, and Spurgeon. Christians love C.S. Lewis and Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Martin Luther King Jr., but they forget how that their spiritual gifts, combined with their intellectual properties and mental disciplines, made these men so effective. The same is true for great Christian women leaders like Abigail Adams and Harriet Beecher Stowe, who were brilliant, educated and they filled their pins with passionate persuasive powers. They not only moved congregations, they moved the nation.

    Internship programs are geared to church life but they are woefully inadequate in teaching students the knowledge they will need to become the kind of effective servants the world needs today. I don’t mind that they fired me and Ken Ross, but I am sad that they elected a course that minimizes the importance of real education and they seem content with a program that amplifies the idea of the “local church” at the expense of the Kingdom of God. I do respect the church’s right to make the decision but I never backed down on my insistence of the importance of improving the academic conditions of PBC and pursuing accreditation. I simply cannot see how firing us and replacing us with church staff and integrating an intern program makes the school “better,” and helps the students, as it has been argued. That’s my take for what it’s worth.
    Larry Taylor

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18. magledon said:    
    March 29th, 2006 at 4:42 pm

    Larry-
    “It was good enough for Luther, Calvin, Wesley, and Spurgeon. Christians love C.S. Lewis and Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Martin Luther King Jr., but they forget how that their spiritual gifts, combined with their intellectual properties and mental disciplines, made these men so effective.”

    If Christainity requires intellectual properties and mental disciplines then I guess Im out…

    I used to think it was about mercy, forgiveness and loving others.

    Have fun with that mental discipline brother.

    “intellectual properties and mental disciplines, made these men so effective.”

    Just another damn salesman

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19. Larry Taylor said:    
    March 29th, 2006 at 6:59 pm

    magledon on March 29, 2006 at 4:42 pm said:

    Larry-
    “It was good enough for Luther, Calvin, Wesley, and Spurgeon. Christians love C.S. Lewis and Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Martin Luther King Jr., but they forget how that their spiritual gifts, combined with their intellectual properties and mental disciplines, made these men so effective.”

    If Christainity requires intellectual properties and mental disciplines then I guess Im out…

    I used to think it was about mercy, forgiveness and loving others.

    Have fun with that mental discipline brother.

    “intellectual properties and mental disciplines, made these men so effective.”

    Just another damn salesman

    magdelon,

    When it comes to education, I AM “just another damn salesman.” I am proud of it too.
    Knowledge cannot hurt in a world where ignorance is everywhere. I have a missionary friend, for example, whose son just completed a Masters degree in developing communities in poor underdeveloped countries. Please understand that I’m not pushing education for education sake, but education for the sake of being a productive, well-rounded citizen. Even Christians should think about their contributions to the world.

    My context was the value of education, not what it takes to be a member of the church. Salesman? I hope so.

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20. magledon said:    
    March 30th, 2006 at 1:15 am

    This says it all brother.

    “for the sake of being a productive, well-rounded citizen”

    There was a guy in the mid 30’s who had this same mentality…

    I’m just saying that if that above quote is in the PBC literature, I would run like a jew from the nazis.

    just a thought brother. not a cut.

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21. JiminyCricket81 said:    
    March 30th, 2006 at 5:11 am

    Magledon,

    I agree with a lot of the things you say on this blog, and I think you and I share a number of theological beliefs in common. However, I really and truly disagree with you if you’re saying that you think education isn’t an important part of faith. I do agree with you that love (a well-trained heart) is the place to begin. That’s a given. But, I think in order to be whole, human beings NEED to understand what’s inside themselves and what makes the world around them work.

    Education isn’t about “laying up treasures on earth” so much as it’s about being responsible. The human capacity for learning and growing and changing is enormous. We haven’t even scratched the surface of our own abilities as a species, I feel. So, if humans are looking to serve an infinite God, don’t we have at least SOME accountability to understand our finite selves as thoroughly as possible, too…if for no other reason, than to find effective ways to serve others and alleviate suffering in the world? For me, education is the confluence of the practical world and the philosophical world….and I have to say, I’m with Larry 100%. If saying all this makes me a salesperson, a propagandist, or a person who shares something in common with Hitler, then so be it (it hasn’t stopped me from being a vegetarian….another Hitlerian common thread) — that’s a risk I’m willing to take.

    Being a human is dangerous. Each of us has the ability to build up with the same tools we can use for horrific destruction. Our minds have always been two-edged swords in this way, and that’s not a problem that’s going away. For me, the best I can do is to become a more conscious, EDUCATED citizen in whatever capacity I can. To shut my eyes and say, “I’m just gonna love people,” can’t really cut it if I don’t know how to give life and action to that statement in a useful way. Love is just a feeling until it does something….and we tie love’s hands if we don’t inform it with the needs of people around us….which we can only do through education. Life abroad has only made this concept more clear to me — we have to love people in a way that’s meaningful for THEM. This means taking the trouble and summoning the courage to walk out of comfortable ignorance into a whole world where people like us have done some really lousy things.

    As I said before, I believe that education is the place where love and service collide…and if love and service are important Christian tenets, education MUST be a part of the Christian experience. Maybe we’re not even really disagreeing, but this is what came to mind as I read your comments, for whatever that’s worth.

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22. magledon said:    
    March 30th, 2006 at 6:30 am

    Thanks JimCreek. People always get a little shaken when I imply that the mentality they potray is rather similar to a man and machine that nearly extinguished an entire race due to religious certainty.

    Everyone can do as they choose in this country. Thanks to many diests and hard woking human rights and social justice workers over the last century.
    The only thing I have a problem with is when theologians start talking about “expansion of the mind” and “wealth of knowledge” is that it is always skewed with a slant, not by proven fact, but by religious undertones that cannot be mistaken.
    Theologians want to have the best of both worlds (religious and secular) and i simply don’t think it works that way.
    You may have seen the post about the Ms. Watters article regarding women staying in the home. She is a good example of an educated christian and look what century she’s living in.

    For the record: I don’t think anybody that would be subjected to the confines of a PBC curriculum and come out of it thinking they had more answers than questions, is possible. But they still charge you for the “life lesson”.

    The same people on this blog who are saying they aren’t religious, are in fact living there lives in a more religious fashion than most practicing catholics.

    Don’t tell me I’m going to hell in one sentence and then try to teach me science in the next breath! I don’t buy it. That saved me like thousands of dollars that I’ve had to watch my cousans and relatives squander. Go into debt to find god. Yeah.

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23. JiminyCricket81 said:    
    March 30th, 2006 at 2:08 pm

    Magledon,

    Ok, I think we’re getting warmer….

    I wasn’t advocating for PBC….I think it’s an idea that can’t work, at least not with the limitations that have been placed on it. I’m advocating for education in general, as a spiritual discipline in its own right, without any extra packaging necessary to make it so….and that to fail to pursue the discipline of education is the same as neglecting any other aspect of spiritual growth. So, in a sense, yes, I am saying education is part of the path to God. I don’t agree at all with the way that PBC chooses to go about it…as I’ve said before, an education should open the student’s mind, and not close it. We’re all alotted an average of 75 years on this planet, and I think it’s bloody ridiculous to suppose that we should only spend the first 22 being educated. So, then, if one leaves school with no more questions, that means the journey’s over….and I think that’s a crying shame.

    What say you?

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24. magledon said:    
    March 30th, 2006 at 2:24 pm

    Read some books on your own…

    Why do people need a teacher to tell them what a book is saying???

    Because it has been that way since primary school! Our brains were formed into this medium. I’m saying to truly be at peace with ones life and values, requires that that single individual find the “truth” for themself.

    I really do believe that spiritual conquest is between the individual person and a universal diety surrounding us all.

    To say that these teachers at PBC are anything more than the fruition of generations of doctrine is ridiculous.

    They are as legitimate as any other theology course… I just don’t see people who come from these “schools” actually really discovering god or faith. They are merely continuing a tradition wherein a selected few from the social halls of religious churches continue the teachings of their fathers without mucking the waters, so to speak.

    I appreciate the conversation JimCreek… You are an interesting personna to interact with on these subjects.

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