Christian Education
Posted on March 29th, 2006 by catalyst into the Uncategorized categoryLarry Taylor seems to be one of the few Christian leaders that places a real emphasis on Honesty. It's nice to see. Here's a great comment from him regarding Christian Education, and PBC more specifically.
Just for the record, I have to say I respectfully disagree with my friend's observation about PBC's decision to drop accreditation pursuits and become more like other internship programs around the country. Trends come and go, but Christian education that focuses on preparing men and women to effectively communicate and connect with the world has served the church reasonably well over the centuries.
It was good enough for Luther, Calvin, Wesley, and Spurgeon. Christians love C.S. Lewis and Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Martin Luther King Jr., but they forget how that their spiritual gifts, combined with their intellectual properties and mental disciplines, made these men so effective. The same is true for great Christian women leaders like Abigail Adams and Harriet Beecher Stowe, who were brilliant, educated and they filled their pins with passionate persuasive powers. They not only moved congregations, they moved the nation.
Internship programs are geared to church life but they are woefully inadequate in teaching students the knowledge they will need to become the kind of effective servants the world needs today. I don't mind that they fired me and Ken Ross, but I am sad that they elected a course that minimizes the importance of real education and they seem content with a program that amplifies the idea of the "local church" at the expense of the Kingdom of God.
I do respect the church's right to make the decision but I never backed down on my insistence of the importance of improving the academic conditions of PBC and pursuing accreditation. I simply cannot see how firing us and replacing us with church staff and integrating an intern program makes the school "better," and helps the students, as it has been argued. That's my take for what it's worth.
Larry Taylor
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March 29th, 2006 at 7:50 am
Larry,
Thanks for being willing to address this forum and set the record straight.
My pastor from Sitka, Alaska always speaks very highly of you.
KM
March 29th, 2006 at 8:50 am
Here's two links to "my friend's [Larry Asplund's] observation", to which Larry Taylor was responding:
http://georgiapine.blogspot.com/2006/03/so-why-university.html
http://georgiapine.blogspot.com/2006/03/what-internship.html
March 29th, 2006 at 9:02 am
Larry Taylor has always been one of the few people who I think “mixes” a strong pursuit of intellectual reasoning with religion very well.
I looked up to him when I was at PBC, and have since tried to emulate his passion for both being “head smart” and “heart smart”. For me, my two diverse passions are astrophysics/cosmology and theology.. two worlds that almost by definition at odds with each other. It would astound and amaze me to find a “MFI approved” religious school that teaches both, accurately and honestly, side by side.
(And no, the Jesuits are not MFI approved.)
March 29th, 2006 at 10:01 am
It seems sketch that PBC charges its students such high tuition, then turns around and uses those students for free labor at CBC. If you ask me, this is more than a great deal for CBC’s financial interests. Call it an internship, that sounds nice, but I think students should have a choice where they volunteer their services. It is rather close-minded, I think, to keep the students bound to attending CBC, interning at CBC, while attending PBC. This does not train students to minister in unique ways in a diverse world. It creates like-minded clones that will only be successful in an MFI setting.
It’s unfortunate that PBC has chosen not to proceed with accreditation–I agree with Larry that this is the best way to raise up strong leaders. You need both “the intellectual properties and mental disciplines,” as Larry put it–this is why Multnomah Bible College has become so much more successful (in my opinion) than PBC at raising leaders that will be successful in not just one, but many church denominations & positions of intelligence & influence within society. MBC’s students are able to serve in a wider range, affecting & ministering in a much more useful & effective way. I really believe that many students that leave PBC have a hard time serving in churches that are not MFI or do not function like an MFI church. If PBC wants an effective internship program, I believe they need to start with allowing their students to volunteer their services in various ministries in the community.
But, I still think PBC should seek accreditation–based on their current program & instructors, if they AREN’T going to seek accreditation, they should at least change their name to Portland Bible Institute. Call it what it is–not what it’s not.
March 29th, 2006 at 11:12 am
I’m surprised nobody has posted this link already:
Portland Bridal College
I guess it depends on how narrow you desire the definition to be, for whatever purpose you wish it to have.
Certainly worked out well for me.. I met my wife there. (And despite practically every “faculty” member telling us we were going straight to hell for daring to violate the rules… we’ll be celebrating our 10th anniversary this August, and the arrival of our first child in October. Go PBC Go!)
lol.
March 29th, 2006 at 2:33 pm
oh dear. he may be all book smart with his knowledge of astrophysics blah blah blah, but his math skills are a little sketchy. it will be 9 years, darling. at least you remembered it was in august
March 30th, 2006 at 10:02 am
Hm… Interesting comment. I am an MBC dropout. When I was at MBC a few years ago, they had just started the regional accreditation process. As much as I have mixxed feelings about the school, I do agree 100% that the accredation process has made the school better. I was a little dissapointed when Portland State wouldn’t take my English Literature or Psychology classes, which I thought were 10x better quality academically than what I ended up having to take at PSU.
On the other hand, I don’t think that regional accredation is the end-all solution to academic rigour(sp?). Quite a few religious schools suck even with accreditation. As much as I liked some classes at MBC, I thought others were ridiculously quasi-academic spiritua clone-makers that made me mad at Christianity.
Check out this NY Times article on changing demographics in seminary. Who knew that Al Gore worked on an M.Div before deciding to pursue law? That is one of the many interesting tidbits that the article article mentions in relation to the demographics of seminarians today.
Seminary applications, especially for mainline denomination schools, are way up. But on the other hand, the proportion of students who are interested in pursuing a pastorate, are way down. Interesting…
One of the reasons cited by some in the article is a general tendancy of applicants to want to use a seminary education as a jumping-off point for social justice work. I find this really interesting… as I’ve been thinking about deconstructing and reconstructing christianity, and talking about the same with friends, I think that a lot of us postmoderns desire a chrisianity that is more social-justice focused and less focused on traditional missions of the church (e.g., converting the proverbial “lost”).
Any thoughts from the City Business crowd?
March 30th, 2006 at 12:42 pm
Do Jesus’ words in bright red in the New Testament require that much dissection. They seem rather clear. Now if one wants to inspect the verses and words of Jesus and compare them the apostles then maybe we can have a discussion on accuracy but going to a seminary is the equal of going to a school sololy focused on reading Moby Dick. One shouldn’t have to destroy then resurrect their beliefs. One merily needs to read the book and go with their gut. Just some personal views on seminaries.
March 30th, 2006 at 1:13 pm
Well, I guess it’s like moby dick, except that the texts various interpretations have had (and continue to have) much more significant impact on the world (negatively and positively). And there are many differing theologies produced and supported via a reading of the text…
I think that I disagree with your statement here, Magledon, because it assumes that the “belief” one has going into seminary is already fully formed accurately and that one’s gut can guide them through any analysis of the text… when it’s pretty clear that a number of reasonable people throughout history have come to differing conclusions on the canon texts (even the ‘red letter’ words). (even when you take into account “guidance” by the holy spirit… which would presumably lead towards consensus, which doesn’t exactly happen outside of fundamentalism).
Just my .02 cents…
March 30th, 2006 at 1:13 pm
KARLI: “It seems sketch that PBC charges its students such high tuition, then turns around and uses those students for free labor at CBC. If you ask me, this is more than a great deal for CBC’s financial interests.”
Hey, I looked all over, and PBC was the cheapest Bible College aside from correspondance courses. From the earliest conception Dick Iverson had, PBC was always intended to be a tool to train leaders for their church. Some people like myself came in, didn’t attend CBC, and don’t belong to an MFI church now.
I mooched off ‘em, and I completely understand that they are discouraging that. I don’t blame them.
But don’t by any means imply that PBC is over charging students. It’s just not true. Look around at other tuition prices at similar college programs.
March 30th, 2006 at 2:10 pm
Let’s see a cost verses expenditures before you start this up
March 30th, 2006 at 2:18 pm
I think part of our reaction to this shift away from accreditation is that it seems to put less emphasis on studying the Bible and understanding what it means and more emphasis on whatever the popular trend is in church leadership at the time.
I, for one, have personally been hurt in my own life and seen may people misled by a pastor who said (and I quote) “I don’t need Greek and Hebrew to tell me what the Bible says. I have the Holy Spirit” and then he went on to espouse all sorts of heretical ideas.
So, I think some of us have seen blatant abuse of power by leadership and these internship type programs are rife with it.
March 30th, 2006 at 2:25 pm
Amen.
March 30th, 2006 at 7:27 pm
“On the other hand, I don’t think that regional accredation is the end-all solution to academic rigour(sp?). Quite a few religious schools suck even with accreditation” [DaveD]
Dave,
I am totally in agreement with you on this. Accreditation is not a silver bullet. Moreover, I agree that Seminary or Bible College, for that matter, is not the end-all solution for preparing leaders. Nor do they become the only means of preparing men and women for Christian leadership. There must be a combination of raw gifting, right environment and opportunites for experience, personal discipline, encouragement, and I would add some classroom knowledge. In seminary I’ve seen men and women with PhD’s and little real-life church experience; and in church leadership groups I’ve seen men and women with loads of personal experience and spiritual gifting and little understanding of the world outside the church doors.
It seems to me that the weaker tendency of academics is to hide in the books, while the tendency of anti-intellectuals is to rely on pragmatism and hear-say. I became weary a long time ago of pastors who follow trends and criticize authors and theologians, but never took the time to read the books firsthand. Academic environments also have their fair share of pressures to conformity.
The point is that if you are advertising yourself as a “college,” then there is some obligation you have to the public to back up the word with an academic program. I have no problem with trade schools and institutions that are focused on hands-on training, but let’s use the appropriate nomenclature.
March 30th, 2006 at 7:41 pm
I agree with you on all points, Larry! Great response.
Karli
March 31st, 2006 at 3:28 am
DING DING!
And the first round of the Great Portland Bible College -vs- Portland Bible Institute Fight goes to Larry T!
On a side note, it would be interesting to see if the government/state might ever be interested in “standardizing” the term “college”. Anyone know what is the law in that area?
March 31st, 2006 at 5:33 am
I’m certain whatever the law/standard may be, churches are exempt for reasons of separation.
How hard is it for prospective students to examine the school’s curriculum (religious courses) before they enroll and to determine that an education there will have no practical use outside institutionalized religion? Or to check out the hiring requirements of prospective employers and whether or not a degree from the school would be accepted?
Or am I wrong to assume students know what they want to be when they grow up and should pursue an education consistent with their chosen career path?
Crying “hey, they’re not accredited” seems pretty bogus to me.
What is the student’s responsibility?
April 1st, 2006 at 2:17 pm
Larry-
Is not spiritual gifting the equivalent of saying the “right” thing at the “right” time in front of the right people?
Is it not just a game of chance wherein someone who has practiced the right thing to say will eventually end up saying it at the correct time according to whichever church leaders are present and in power?
This is what a lifetime around spiritual gifting has shown me.
It’s all about percentages and proper timing.
I just wish people who claim to see outside the box, would admit that this is what is occurring in America’s church’s and Evangelical seminaries. It makes about as much sense to me as that Lysol commercial.
P.S. I’ve met plenty of people with business gifting and eventually they make the board or management. Principally because they’ve demonstrated they are a yes man in the system of business. Therefore they move up the chain. I just don’t see how spiritual gifting is any different. I think it is all about reading people and going along with the pre-written guidelines of the particular society in which you reside.
jaded yes… maybe. lol
April 3rd, 2006 at 10:32 pm
“Is not spiritual gifting the equivalent of saying the “right” thing at the “right” time in front of the right people?
Is it not just a game of chance wherein someone who has practiced the right thing to say will eventually end up saying it at the correct time according to whichever church leaders are present and in power?”
magledon,
No, I wouldn’t say this, even though I agree with certain aspects of what you are saying. Common sense is an oxymoron, today, and I would agree that there are plenty of Christians affixed with cranium funnels primed for the next load of garbage poured out by unscrupulous leaders. I also know there is a lot of psychology involved in these sorts of things. I’ve studied “cold reading” and personality profiling. Both tools are used by professionals or con men in a variety of circumstances, including the FBI’s current methods of looking for potential terrorist suspects. Sure, there is a lot of “mixture” of psychology, situational properties and even socially-induced experiences, but I would have to say that every example of “spiritual insight” cannot be simply reduced to this. In studying social epistemology, I discovered that even the researchers are baffled at times over the seemingly “spiritual connection” in certain instances. Oh yes, and there are Buddhist studies in this area, as well. But to rule spirituality out as a causal factor, presumably because you don’t believe it, seems a bit trite. I have noticed that you seem to base a lot of your beliefs either on hunch or experiences that have prejudiced you in a particularly cynical way…”jaded”…perhaps is the word. But I don’t know all about your personal experiences or background and I don’t want to presume what they are. But the answer is “no,” I don’t think spiritual gifting can be reduced to simply these factors you mentioned.
April 3rd, 2006 at 11:38 pm
L.A.rry-
At least that coversation is in the open.
Your kinda cool for a hot Georgian boy!
So if you need a good recipe for tea, my mom’s got one they use in Texas and it includes limes.
P.S. I got this new cowboy hat and i put a big feather in it. then i got big sparkly letters with my intials and hung them from my chest like a burden that the son of fanatical christians would bear. it was rock n roll and i was saved!
www.liarsclubmusic.com