The readers write
Posted on April 12th, 2006 by catalyst into the Uncategorized categoryI got a couple of new emails recently, and I want to post them for your enjoyment.
Couv Operator writes:
Did you see King of the Hill this week? It was a great take-down of mega-churches. Peggy was trying to sell Hank on switching to a new church. She was talking about the coffee bar, dry cleaning, cafe, music store, book store, and on and on. Hank had the comeback of the year. "If I wanted to go to a church like that, I'd just walk around the mall and think about Jesus." I had to hit pause, I was laughing so hard.
To quote Homer Simpson, "It's funny because it's true." Also, you know the Pastors at City Bible just read this and were like, "Dry Cleaning! Genius! Why didn't we think of that."
Lastly, an old college friend, who is also a recently ordained Methodist Minister, found my blog and wrote me the following email:
Mr. Morton-
First of all, I have to say that I am impressed with your online ministry. You have quite the ragamuffin bunch of disgruntled Christians following your writings. In all seriousness…your critique of the church is very prophetic, and in the midst of the sarcasm and biting wit, there is also quite a bit of compassion.
(I just looked back at what I wrote. It makes me feel like I need to give somebody a group hug. Sorry for the sappy tone- but I am impressed with the ideas you express on the blog. I'll be a reader in the future.
"Ragamuffin bunch of disgruntled Christians" is an excellent description of this blog. I may try to post that phrase permanently.
April 12th, 2006 at 6:27 am
Mmmm … muffins …
Not sure how I feel about the comment though Mr. Morton … not so sure disgruntled is appropriate - because it suggests the reason people left whatever institutional church they attended previously is because of a ‘bad attitude’ - the comment rings with the very superior / authoritarian / judgmental attitude most of us left behind - and doesn’t give any hint that the person considered the institution’s role in our decision to leave. No; we left because we became disgruntled.
There is also a presumption in the comment, that the majority, who continue to meet under the watchful eye of the clergy in dedicated religious buildings, are right, and those who leave are wrong and backslidden and unchurched, etc. Yet, there are many examples in scripture, where the Father called people out from among the masses, to go into the desert, alone, where He broke them down, revealed Himself, and built them back up by the Holy Spirit (1 John 2:27).
Recently, we’ve discussed the ‘Great Commission’ and what it means - to GO OUT into the world with the Gospel, not to build ivory palaces and call the world IN to us … or the words of Christ who said the path / gate to life is narrow, which by definition is a solitary (single-file) path - the wide path / gate (conformity / group hug) is the path to destruction. Along those lines, the early church in Acts 2 & 4 was doing the group-hug / conformity thing until intense persecution following Stephen’s death scattered them throughout the world. Did God allow / use the persecution to light a fire under His disobedient conformist / group-hug Church to force them out into the world to fulfill the GC?
And so, when God calls us individually out of the institution (conformist / group-hug) scene, why not see it for what it is: God doing a work in us, to prune and grow us, and to deliver a prophetic message of correction to the institution from which we came, or for whatever other purpose God wills.
My wife and I were talking the other night, about the numbers of people over the years who have expressed alarm that we don’t “go to church” and have tried to rope us and drag us back there. We have no desire to do that - we’re free - and loving it. But it occurred to me how silly the institutions are when the Spirit reminded me of a simple parable:
Jesus said “you are the salt of the earth.” What do you do with salt? You sprinkle it on your food and the salt imparts it’s flavor to the food. That’s Jesus way with us; He sprinkles us throughout the earth so that we impart Jesus flavor to everyone we touch. But then there’s the way of the institutional church, calling sinners into their buildings, like trying to cram food into the salt-shaker.
Morons. Blind morons.
I hope your friend will read this wonderful short story for understanding; it’s been a favorite of mine for years: Escape From Christendom.
See ya later, Mr. Morton.
Jack
April 12th, 2006 at 7:33 am
John,
I think you might be reading into the good Reverend’s comments too much. As an “old college friend” of Mr. Morton and the Rev, I am fairly confident that there were no presumptions of superiority in his comments. In fact, the Rev states that he is “quite impressed with the ideas” expressed on this site and commends Mr. Morton for being both prophetic and compassionate. And as for any inferrence that the Rev thinks that the Great Commandment needs to be institutionalized, I would again disagree since it was the informal student chapel and small group Bible studies that convinced the Rev to attend seminary.
I don’t disagree that the sentiment you expose is rampant among clergy, I just think you’re making your point with the wrong example in this case.
Pete
April 12th, 2006 at 7:47 am
I think your new catch phrase needs to say with whom/what we are disgruntled. I’m not just “disgruntled”, I’m “disgruntled with religious churches”. But that might be too long to use as a catch-phrase…
April 12th, 2006 at 7:58 am
I don’t really think of the blog as disgruntled. But you have to be honest, it’s not like the comments are filled with overwhelming praise for the church, or anything at all really. So, I can see how someone would read the comments and think of us as negative.
FWIW, this seems to be the trend in the comments on most blogs. People will write in when they’re fired up about something, but not so much when they like something.
Whatev. I was kind of hoping people would pick up on the comparison between Megachurches and Malls. Their really are a lot of similarities.
April 12th, 2006 at 8:59 am
While crusing through Georgia Pine I found a few other comments by some of our readers. Let’s look at what they have to say.
Larry,
…It is sad to hear how PBC is changing so much from the one that I left 7 years ago. It is also sad to read how some former classmates are bashing CBC and Pastor Frank. It is awesome to see how classy you have been both on your blog as well as the “City Business Church” blog…
Thanks again,
Chris Morehouse
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Larry, I wanted you to know that I have been reading your blog and basking in your insight, wit, and general mentorish glow. I came here by way of a neggative litle blog, and if nothing else I can be grateful they posted your web address.
…Also, thanks for defending PBC, or rather explaining. As Veggie Tales remind us: Rumors HURT…gee, guess some one wasn’t paying attention.
Dana Sanchez
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Thanks for keeping us all informed through the transition. I’ve never really understood the point of “blogging”, but after the Morton bro’s blog, yours will be the 2nd I read with keen interest.
Laura
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Ever since we started requiring an email address to comment on this blog, a large number of our PBC bloggers stopped writing in. I wish they would come back so I wouldn’t have to steal comments from other sites.
However, it’s still a good time.
For the record, I think the Mall of America might be the Anti-Christ.
April 12th, 2006 at 9:44 am
I was informed this last week that my church is putting in a coffee bar near the bookstore. My first thought was “Yessssss! Coffee!!” Then this though entered my mind “Isn’t that where it all begins, with a coffee bar?”. But, I realized there is hope for us because, after all, not one book in the bookstore is written by our pastor. In fact, most of them are written by a bunch of dead guys with no personal agenda. I think we’ll be okay. And maybe next year they will get around to installing that pub.
April 12th, 2006 at 9:52 am
Okay, I’ll admit to disgruntled, but I don’t know about the ragamuffin part. Karli
April 12th, 2006 at 11:34 am
Peter McClain said:
Perhaps you’re right, Peter. Nevertheless, I’m disgruntled by your comment.
My apologies to the good Rev. for making an ASSumption of myself. He can take solace in the fact that it isn’t the first time, and likely won’t be the last.
It was early this morning when I wrote that, and it’s apparent all my faculties weren’t working at the time. Heck, I was posting about SALT to a guy named MORTON and failed to make any lame jokes.
I must be slipping or not getting enough caffiene.
Jack
April 13th, 2006 at 5:45 am
I think we should shorten the catch phrase to “bitter muffins.”
April 17th, 2006 at 4:57 am
I would definitely say that the phrase “disgruntled” fits this blog. It seems that 90+% of what you talk about is negative/bitter/angry/disgruntled (I would say 100%, but I’m sure you have to have had something non-negative - - I just couldn’t find it).
You seem to point out what everyone else is doing wrong, but never talk about what you are doing right (or what anyone is doing right). You talk about how being a Christ follower is about helping the poor and destitute, but never talk about how you are doing that. Anyone who has stumbled across this blog certainly knows what you are against, but what are you for? And what are YOU doing about it? Maybe after pointing out the splinters in everyone else’s eyes, you could throw in an example or two of what you or your blogger friends here are doing right, so the rest of the un-enlightened church world can learn by your example.
I guess I would be classified as being disgruntled about your disgruntledness.
Jason B.
April 17th, 2006 at 7:58 am
Jason said:
Have you considered the story of the Good Samaritan? When he heard the wounded man cry out and saw him, he had compassion on him. Can you imagine what the wounded man might have said to the Samaritan? Did he describe his beating and the robbery? Did he weep while recalling his wounds? How do you suppose the Samaritan responded? Did the Samaritan accuse the man of being disgruntled, or, did he empathize with and comfort the man?
The true nature of dealing with the unloveliness in this world, is binding up the wounds of My people, of getting dirty by contact with the victims of sin. The wounded will bleed on you. The wounds of My people are mostly within, and are most often expressed by their words. Consider their words as weeping.
Therefore, do not silence their tears, rather, do as the Samaritan did, listen, let your heart go out to them, and comfort My people.
Or be the ones who walk by them on the other side. The choice is yours.
The judgment is Mine.
JC
April 17th, 2006 at 9:13 am
Good perspective. I definitely agree. And I definitely want to be a Good Samaritan as well. I really do!
My only response would be that Jesus didn’t only criticize the pharisees, but he also encouraged His followers with what they could do and be and experience and live. Obviously there are some incredibly creative and intelligent people on this website. So balance what you say with some positive outlets, too. Let those still bleeding find comfort from what you say. But than point them in a direction of encouragement. Tell them how you can relate, but that the wounds will heal. The bleeding will stop. Scars may remain, but we are able to find a place of love, safety, and completeness in Christ, alongside His followers.
The Samaritan did help the abused man. But he didn’t stay there with the man. Instead, he took him to a place where he could recover and be healed. If this website is a modern-day Good Samaritan, than comfort as only you can. And than balance that by pointing people in the right direction with positive truths, showing them genuine followers of Jesus who aren’t pharisees, and speak of how you who were once a victim are now experiencing a new dimension of grace in your relationships, your work, your church, your everyday life of loving the poor and destitute.
I don’t want to be judgemental. And maybe I am blind to the fact that I am being judgemental. Wouldn’t be the first mistake I’ve made …. today. But what I want is people to tell me I can matter. To tell me I can make a difference by doing good. When all I hear is people talking about what’s wrong with the church, I just feel like giving up. Why? Cause it makes me feel like no one is doing it right. And if the pastors can’t get it right, than how is a screwed up sinner like me ever going to get it right.
If I could sum it up in one word: Balance. Just balance the comforting of the afflicted and the abused with words of encouragement and hope.
Jason B.
April 17th, 2006 at 11:19 am
Hey Jason,
I think I hear what you’re saying … and guess I feel the same … having been raised up in an institutional church, where I was taught that “this is what love is” - people sitting like wooden indians staring at the pastor who is waxing eloquent about some cherished belief or teaching, or standing to sing an old hymn, and then filing out of the building, to be alone again for the rest of the week … where does anyone involve themselves with anyone else - where is that real / tangible expression of love - listening - offering a shoulder to cry on - helping someone - feeding someone? It’s each man to himself 167 hours a week, and nothing more/less than pretense for the remaining (church) hour.
Having been raised up in that kind of mistaken ideal of what serving really is, for a long time all I could do is talk about what it should be. Until I started asking God for opportunities to serve His people. It didn’t come in the context of the institutional church at all, serving in the choir, ushering, serving/cooking for potlucks, etc. Opportunities to serve (and love) started showing up in my every day life, with my neighbors, friends and strangers.
There’s my 70 year old next door neighbor who lost his only daughter about 20 years ago to a drunk driver. He’s an alcoholic now and his conversation is peppered with profanity. I help him with projects he can’t do anymore, and just sit and listen to him sometimes. His wife had knee replacement surgery last winter, and we cooked and took several meals to them. Their church did nothing, but send them notice that they were falling behind on their giving committment.
There’s the 92 year old lady across the street, who tells me the same story every time I see her. I stand there and listen. Every time it snows, I clear her drive and walks with my snow-blower. When she fell on the ice/snow last winter and broker her shoulder, I was there to pick her up and set her in a chair and called 9-1-1 to come get her.
There’s my 30 year old neighbor who has 2 children, who’s husband doesn’t have a clue. We’ve sat and listened to her several times about her marriage, counseled and prayed with her, without ever repeating what she has told us in confidence, nor judging her or her husband.
There’s countless brothers and sisters who write me concerning the tithe and the articles I’ve posted at my web site who share their own stories of being beaten and robbed, who just need someone to listen. Or who have been pressured by a minister to give, citing some obscure scripture, who need to reconcile what the minister said. Or who after reading the articles, continue to give out of guilt and need someone to help with with that. And there’s occasionally a minister who writes to confess to me that they always knew the tithe teaching was a lie, but continued to teach it because they feared what would happen if people didn’t have a % to shoot for. I respond to all of them with love if I can. It’s a strange ministry - because the departure point for most people struggling to get free from institutionalized religion, is the subject of giving, more specifically, the tithe. It’s a national issue - Barna reported a couple years ago that tithing was down 42% across the country. Is it because people are getting cheap, or, are they getting wise to the racket of institutionalized religion? Whichever, all of them need encouragement to follow the Spirit and embrace the Spirit’s teaching / revelation, and where that differs from the teaching of the hirelings, to depart from the hirelings and follow Christ instead. There’s a tremendous ministry in just helping people face and overcome fear - a ministry of encouragement, if you will.
I’ve run several BBSs over the years, both Christian and music oriented. On the surface, none of them looked to be producing fruit because they are narrow in scope, and not conducive to any intimate relationship / sharing. But off-line, many members forged great relationships, when they took discussions off-line and emailed each other, sometimes talking by phone, and even meeting face to face. As such, the BBS (or blog) is a kind of catalyst to do something real and genuine. It’s a motivator …
But a BBS/blog is no substitute, for sitting down with the brothers and sisters, and breaking bread, and talking / listening and letting the Spirit move in the gathering.
One of the things that helped me a lot Jason, was someone’s simple observation, that I was (in a sense) the ‘pastor’ of my neighborhood. I have no building in which I hold services, don’t sing special music or take up a collection … I just walk and talk with them from time to time as they travel the path, and listen, and feed back to them. And take their concerns to the Father in prayer. Nothing institutional / religious about it. Just real relationship, and being the son of God that the Father has made me, that they might see Him and know He loves them too.
Our works don’t have to be grand, or commercial, or within the construct of institutionalism … they just have to be intimate, personal, and motivated by God’s love.
Blessings! Jack
April 17th, 2006 at 12:00 pm
Jason,
For all us complainers here, I can personally say that I’ve moved past all the hurts and I’m not “complaining” about CBC. But I still find it personally therapeutic to talk about those things I felt were wrong, or are still wrong at CBC. In that sense, I continue to work out my own beliefs and separate the good from the bad. I continue to attend church and even to give to those ministries I discern are healthy and do it cheerfully without guilt or a need to “please God” through it. Some months I don’t give at all. I still don’t feel guilty. At the church I’m currently attending, there is no offering plate passed and no preaching on tithing or giving. They have a deposit box in the back of the main hall where people can give as they wish. They just moved into their new building that will easily seat over 1000 people, and there was no special building fund or a “forward together” campaign. People simply gave what was in their hearts to give because they saw the fruit of a healthy pastoral team/church community. This church is not an isolated incident. I know of at least two other large churches in the area that have recently built new facilities in the past few years that don’t preach on tithing or giving and don’t pass an offering plate.
It is possible to have a church and pastoral team with a healthy perspective on New Testament giving! CBC and it’s leadership still cling to their cherished “doctrines” on things like tithing when this generation is not only demanding change, it is also proving them wrong. Does it make me bitter or mean-spirited for pointing that out? When we say it would be better to spend money on helping the homeless or people less “affluent”, I speak from experience. How many of you CBC defenders have spent time with me feeding homeless teens, or giving them the underwear and socks you paid for yourself, or scrubbed the shower they just used (for perhaps the first shower they’ve had in months)? I’m not here to compare myself to others to make myself feel better, but to point out that it’s not a hollow comment when I wonder how many good deeds could have been done with the money spent on remodeling CBC and the plasmas TV’s.
So, I hoped that answered some of the detractors of this site, or perhaps even me personally. You may only see the negative comments on here about CBC, but frankly (pun intended), I can’t help but comment on those things that I find that are wrong with CBC. They’ve been wrong for so long, it’s become this colossal joke on the Internet! It’s more than just a few disgrunteld folk, it’s a freakin’ movement. You can point fingers at us or this blog or the Mortons, but we are simply the products of years of experience with CBC and it’s leadership. They only have themselves to blame. The most encouraging thing to me that has come out of this blog is that I’ve found there are lots of other people like me who are fed up with all of this and see the humor in the absurdity of it all. I’ll continue to poke fun at them for being so stubbornly ignorant of their faults in the hopes that maybe they’ll someday “get it”, but in the meantime I’ll have a good laugh.
April 17th, 2006 at 4:18 pm
Jack - That’s what I’m talking about! Tell those stories. That is the positive side! That is the kind of thing people need to hear! I smell what you are steppin’ in. The 167 hours of life outside the church are life itself. Church gatherings are not. Rather, what a healthy church gathering should be is a place to re-charge and re-energize for what we should be doing with those around us at work, at home, and all around. I am all for listening to the hurts of others. I’m all for helping my elderly neighbor with projects. I am all for grabbing a beer or two, or more, with co-workers, and talking about faith and life! I want to be Christ’s representative to people around me, even though I am really really imperfect and probably skew a lot of what they think about Christ b/c of my failures! But, I also realize that they respect me for being real about my failures, and they actually feel less threatened b/c I am so imperfect!
I have no clue who this CBC church is. I simply stumbled on your website and have read it from time to time, and for some reason, today I commented. That being said, I do feel that I can relate to some aspects of what you are saying. I grew up pentecostal and guilt motivated, too. I’ve been back to those churches since, and felt sick to my stomach. The last one I visited, my wife literally had to hold me down cause I wanted to stand up and yell at the top of my lungs in a church of over 1000 people! I wanted to say “DON’T YOU SEE, PEOPLE? THIS IS GUILT!!! THIS IS NOT WHAT JESUS HAS FOR YOU!!! HE CAME TO SET YOU FREE FROM GUILT AND SHAME …. so on, and so on”.
But than I remember and am reminded, I’m a sinner too. I’m messed up. Stuff I say and think is wrong. And who am I to judge them. Just as Christ Himself said earlier in this blog, “Judgement is mine” (see post above - - He really blogged that!) Granted, I do get ticked about stuff they do or say that I think and know is wrong. I get really mad when I am sharing life with someone searching for truth, and find out they have been abused and disillusioned by the church, much like you and me. And I do validate their anger. In that respect, I understand what you are doing with this site.
But, if it’s not balanced with the positive stories you told above, than it’s just throwing more negative fuel on the fire! What about the people that have never talked to God or felt His presence or been to church - - all they have done is sit back and watch people who are Christ followers who are yelling and complaining and making noise about how messed up Christians and churches are! What about them? Without the balance of HOW TO offered by this site, you are just a playground for the disgruntled to whine and complain and b*tch about what’s wrong.
We don’t need more people to talk about what’s wrong with the church, we need more people to talk about what’s right about God!
I know, I know. Yes, I heard that at church. Yes, my pastor is good at coming up with catchy (aka “corny”) phrases. But, this is one that I think actually does make some good sense. I’m just saying, talk a little about what’s right about God, too.
Anyway, this is all just my opinion. Granted, my opinion is the right one, but that has nothing to do with my opinion. Or does it? Seriously, at this point, I understand we both stand where we stand b/c of where we come from and what we have each been through. Hopefully when it’s all said and done, God prevails. And if that is the goal, I don’t think He’ll have any problem. After all, He’s God!
Jason B.
April 17th, 2006 at 5:27 pm
Great dialogue, guys. I really appreciate all of your stories and insights.
Jack, “won’t you be my neighbor?” You are awesome, brother.
FICM- great comments. I work with a gentleman who attends a megachurch in the Vancouver area. He was telling me about how his pastor uses a lot of dramatic multi-media in his sermons and that they have very recently opened multiple satellite churches, because they already have something like six full services per week. I asked him (cynically thinking I already knew the answer) if they preached heavily on tithing and giving. He stared at me blankly said “no, not at all”. They baptized 300 people on Easter yesterday. Sounds like the “fruit of a healthy pastoral team/church community”.
Jason-No church is perfect, but I think we DO need to talk about what is wrong with the church when it is so blatant and damaging. Thanks for sharing your experiences and comments.
April 17th, 2006 at 6:03 pm
Hi Jason,
This isn’t my web site - sorry if I said anything to make you think that. I too stumbled upon it, and can relate to much of what is said here - I’ve had my own CBC-type experience … my story differs somewhat from yours - brought up Presbyterian (read: staunchly anti-charismatic), always thought there was more, prayed earnestly for the baptism with the Holy Spirit, and finally received it (JOY \o/) … only to be run out of my ‘church home’ by a bunch of militant anti-charismatic folks who said “not in OUR church” … have met the same kind of treatment in several churches even though I’ve never spoken in tongues or prophesied in any of them … someone just tipped off member(s) that we had that baptism/gifting, and rumor and fear did the rest … ever have someone try to cast the Holy Spirit out of you? I kid you not …
Then the Father moved Karen and I from the Pacific NW (Seattle area) to the rural mid-west (Illinois) where Karen is from originally and it got even worse - die hard traditional churches among a die-hard traditional culture. It was death to me - moving here from the liberal and fast paced PNW …
…
How I relate to the Morton’s (?) who own / run this site … I used to work for the Boeing company in Seattle …. 21 years there as an auditor and analyst … then one day I read 2 articles side by side in the Seattle paper - one from the Boeing PR machine saying “all is well with Boeing” and the other the transcript of an internal email from factory workers to management about deplorable shop conditions, skyrocketing divorce rate among employees working 7 day weeks, airplanes on the tarmac that couldn’t be completed for lack of parts, etc. The contrast between the “official” position and “reality” really struck me - and I got this wild idea to write a parody song to contrast the 2 views. Within a couple days, my web site where I posted it had 4000 hits. I got emails from guys in the shop who had posted it on factory bulletin boards, on restroom stall doors, etc., and they asked if I could write another. So I did … and that eventually launched the “Parody Songs for the Boeing Slave” web site, which at its peak was getting 3000 hits an hour, and was read all over the world.
No one ever hassled me over the site - it proved therapeutic for the employees who were going through the merger between Boeing and McDonnell Douglas (in ‘97-’98), complete with some 48,000 layoffs in ‘98-’99. Almost universally, line-level employees loved it, and management hated it. In the end, it was therapeutic to me too - and let me release some 20 years of pent up anger and frustration over corporate abuse. Got several emails and letters from employees who found healing in my sarcastic / critical songs, and who worked up the nerve to resign from Boeing and start their own businesses / do their hearts desire. And then I wrote one song for me - expressing my feelings - called “You’ve Lost That Boeing Feeling”, and shortly after, I asked to be laid off.
Now I’m a clue-less wanna-be-farmer in rural Illinois. When I tell people here I used to work on the international space station - they give me a puzzled look and say “funny, you don’t look like no astronaut”. They also can’t understand how I worked for Boeing but can’t fly a plane.
So I’m endeared to the Morton’s (whom I haven’t met - but still feel a ‘kindship’ with) because we have some weird things in common - like running a parody web site that really chaps the ass of management / leadership.
If CBC leadership would think about it for a moment and not just react impulsively, this site could prove a blessing to them, in that it is a catalyst for discussion and change. Might also help them weed out the misfits, and non-tithers, too.
Jack
April 17th, 2006 at 7:48 pm
I have no problem with people thinking I’m disgruntled. Sign me up for bitter and disillusioned while you are at it. Also, you could just call us realistic, pragmatic, insightful, honest. It’s not like I’m totally bitter that I spent years at PBC and have nothing tangible to show for it . . . oh wait, did I forgot about how my whole Christian ideology was basically shattered and I had to totally redefine what I believed outside of the charismaniac madness? That was probably worth something. Well, I said I’m not totally bitter.
I don’t quite know about the ragamuffin part but why split hairs.
April 17th, 2006 at 8:27 pm
PDXRN,
I go to the same church as your friend–it’s like a breath of fresh air. Every time I attend a service I leave feeling good, even if I cried the whole service because of the message.
There’s no pageantry or pride or pretense. They never talk about money and make a point of ensuring visitor’s that we don’t want theirs.
We launched 6 new sattelite churches on Easter and all of the locations were packed out. This church is all about reaching the lost–no matter what sermon is preached, that is the underlying message of this church.
Sorry for the commercial, but there are some healthy places out there.
April 17th, 2006 at 11:05 pm
love the dialogue. I left Bible Temple (I refuse to claim CBC) when I discovered that going to church was getting in the way of doing the work of Christ. I don’t have time to sit in some flamboyant environment where I’m told when to stand, sit, show affection on command, etc. There are hurting people OUT THERE that don’t have time or energy for that kind of ridiculous gymnastics.
I remember sitting in some of the “renewal” meetings where the guy who trampled the most people to get to the front first was the holiest. Problem was I was sitting by the elderly lady that walked with a walker and the young mother with a fussy infant and the disabled girl in a wheelchair. Somehow that didn’t add up. I couldn’t help but think about the man at the pool at Bethesda where the “waters were stirred” and the lame fellow couldn’t get into the water quickly enough. There’s a lost/hurting world out there and “playing church” really doesn’t seem to be a way to help them. So I gave it up. My work is more church to me than church was. It’s a place to give what you have to give, trying to make a difference. Some days are better than others, but it’s the REAL thing. Not an artificial Barbie Doll Mansion.
April 17th, 2006 at 11:08 pm
I consider myself more disillusioned than disgruntled.
April 18th, 2006 at 5:10 am
Sparrow355 did intercessors try to make the disabled girl in the wheelchair stand up and walk again and again? They did that at one conference I was at. It was terrible to watch. I’m not saying it is the same girl, but at the conference I was at, she never actually walked. I felt bad for her.
April 18th, 2006 at 5:58 am
[…] There is a great discussion taking place in the comment section of our post The Readers Write. Here are two quotes that kind of summarize the discussion: […]
April 18th, 2006 at 9:41 am
Than your idea of church is wrong. Your work is your mission field. Life is your mission field. Church is supposed to be the place you go to be encouraged, re-energized, and equipped to go live with meaning & purpose in the mission field of life.
That is what I think this website has to power to do as well. It has the potential to not only encourage people to see possible deception that is out there, but to than direct people where to go and what to look for that is good and right and just.
Again, the very reason I first commented on this site was b/c you obviously have a following that you are influencing. So use your influence to also talk about what’s good and right and just. Don’t just talk about what’s screwed up and wrong and negative.
Rather, balance it with stuff like this …
And this ….
That’s all I’m saying. Don’t see the church purely through a skeptical view point. If you look for something negative, you will definitely find it. Every single church has something wrong with it! But so do we!
April 18th, 2006 at 9:44 am
I guess I don’t know how to copy quotes. Sorry for all that extra stuff above!
I only meant to paste the “positive comments” from those previous comments.
I meant to pull this from FICM “This church is not an isolated incident. I know of at least two other large churches in the area that have recently built new facilities in the past few years that don’t preach on tithing or giving and don’t pass an offering plate.”
And this from KariMichelle, “Sorry for the commercial, but there are some healthy places out there.”
April 18th, 2006 at 10:37 am
Church is never a place you “go to”, but rather, Church is what we are. Don’t GO TO Church, BE the Church.
Did you know the english word church is traced (at least according to the one dictionary I checked) to about 1000AD? What did they call it in the first 1,000 years of Christianity then?
Main Entry: 1church
Pronunciation: ‘ch&rch
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English chirche, from Old English cirice, ultimately from Late Greek kyriakon, from Greek, neuter of kyriakos of the lord, from kyrios lord, master; akin to Sanskrit sura hero, warrior
1 : a building for public and especially Christian worship
2 : the clergy or officialdom of a religious body
3 : a body or organization of religious believers: as a : the whole body of Christians b : DENOMINATION c : CONGREGATION
4 : a public divine worship
5 : the clerical profession
Note that the 1st definition of “church” is “a building”? That idea simply reflects the modern misunderstanding of what the “Church” really is - that it is a place, and not a people / community. In fact, most believers have it so screwed up, that they call those ‘church buildings’ the “House of God”, despite Acts 7:48, Acts 17:24, and Matthew 23:38, which all say the buildings are NOT God’s house, or that “God has left the building”. 2,000 years ago, on ‘Pentecost’, God took up residence in a new Church building: US. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit now (1 Corinthians 3:16, etc.)
The greek NT word, that is translated to the english word “church” is “ekklesia” (some transliterate it as ‘ecclesia’), and it means a “called out assembly” … some commentaries render it “community”. But I’m struck by the literal definition “called out assembly”.
What is it we are “called out” of? And who is doing the calling? Obviously the one doing the calling is Jesus/Holy Spirit. And I believe what He is calling us out of, is the ways of the world, bondage, sin, dead religion, etc. He’s looking for a people who will follow him, listen to and obey Him. That’s kind of interesting when considered in light of the Hebrews who wandered in the desert, following the cloud by day pillar of fire by night, and who’s ‘tabernacle’ was a tent they could put up and tear down and move when God moved … real hard to tear down and move a ‘temple’ built of stone and wood when the Spirit beckons the assembly to move. And even stranger still when you look at the NT and see everywhere Jesus referred to the temple and synagogues He said “YOUR house” or “YOUR synagogues” - ne never laid claim to the ownership of a physical temple that I can see. But He does lay claim to us, and these temples of flesh and bone.
Many of the problems with the Church, is that most believers don’t know they’ve been ripped off of their identity in Christ - and still have an old testament synagogue/building worship mentality - when the NT says it’s no longer important where we worship God (John 4:20-24), but that we do it in spirit and truth - and the truth is - He’s IN US now. He’s left the building some 2,000 years ago. The buildings are all desolate (Matthew 23:38). The Church needs to separate our thinking about God from our notions of “here or there” of buildings and institutions, etc. And get back to an integrated view of God, i.e., God in us, and us as one in God, that we are the Church in the world, 24×7, and not separated from the world in a church building one hour a week.
One of the most unpleasant tasks of the “called out” ones, is meeting those who are just now staggering out of the tombs of religious institutions under the weight of religious grave clothes, and helping them cast off their grave clothes (religion, doctrines of men and demons, etc.) … believe me, people coming out of the religious institutions need to talk about the lies that were sewn in them, that laid them in the grave of religion in the first place. And the mental tomb of thinking of the Church as a constrictive and official institution must be torn down, through which people relate to God and each other, so that believers can walk in full son-ship, with nothing between them and the Father and the brethren.
For me, it all boils down to a simle question: did Christ intend for his teachings to be ratified, canonized, notarized, made official, denominationalized, officially administered, and turned into a sort of NT version of OT law? Or did Christ intend for it to be more organic and integrated through our whole being / community - in the sense that He wants us to be like Him, and free?
April 18th, 2006 at 11:31 am
Jack -
Sounds great, but I’m just a simple dude. All that greek stuff, dictionary stuff, etimology … WHOA, that’s too much! (smile)
To be honest, I think it’s somewhere in the middle of what you are saying and what you think I am saying (whatever that means).
I think there are gatherings of people that exist as such - in the middle! Maybe they take official offerings, maybe they don’t. Maybe they talk about money from time to time, maybe they don’t. Whatever.
It doesn’t matter if they talk about money, or not - - what matters is that there is no sense of guilt to go with it. Money is as much a part of our lives as our kids, etc. It’s not the topic that is wrong, it’s the motivation and direction of the topics that create guilt, and that is what’s wrong. There is no condemnation in Christ. We shouldn’t feel guilty about giving or not, serving as an usher or not, playing in the band or not, going to a weekly gathering or not. I don’t go b/c I feel guilty if I don’t go - - I go b/c I am encouraged and energized when I do. B/c I am given tools of truth. B/c I am given encouragement that I am important to my kids, my co-workers, my neighbors, and my family. The gatherings I go to (which I happen to call “church”) aren’t what you describe above. And there are lots of gatherings just like the one I go to and the one FICM and KariMichelle speak of.
To me, the church is the gathering together of like-minded people to encourage and equip each other for life. God uses people like you in my life to bring balance to me, and hopefully me to you.
Just don’t throw out the baby with the bath water. Don’t throw out the gathering together of people (aka - church) b/c of a few or more that are wacky.
I’ve always liked the image of embers in a fire needing each other to burn. If you take an ember out of the fire and set it to the side, it will slowly fade out. But if you keep it in the fire, it will continue to glow and produce warmth. Gathering together is just that to me.
On a side note, the “gathering” I go to meets in a rented facility - - not a church building.
April 18th, 2006 at 11:47 am
I got interupted by a phone call writing that - and wanted to add another thought about a more ‘organic’ approach to being the Church.
We trust Jesus to save us (John 3:16), teach us (1 John 2:27), lead us daily to encounters with the lost where we can love them by our actions (1 John 3:18), etc.
Can we trust Jesus to ‘assemble’ (Matthew 16:18) us as the Church, too? (1 Peter 2:4-9) Is the assembly of the Church supposed to be driven by the calendar/clock where we meet weekly every Sunday morning, or, is the energizing / re-fueling you speak of something that occurs organically / ad-hoc as well?
Can we assemble ad-hoc / as led by the Spirit out at the truck stop, over pie and coffee? In a laundromat? In the aisles of Walmart? At the gas station? Some of the most energizing, encouraging meetings I’ve ever had with my brothers and sisters happened in the strangest places, where God brought us together by the Spirit, and not by the calendar/clock in a pre-arranged location for a scripted religious service.
That said, I am encouraged here and elsewhere as the Lord meets me along the path, in the form of my brothers and sisters. And it strikes me as so incredibly God-like, that 2 worn out sojourners, with nothing to encourage themselves, can encourage and feed each other out of nothing. Only the Spirit of God can take nothing, and multiply it to feed everyone who gathers.
I’ve just found that the moment I start relying on the institutions of men, clocks and calendars, to feed me, like cattle showing up for feeding time, I wind up disappointed. But those hidden springs of life within the bretheren, that show up unexpectedly along the narrow path, are wonderfully refreshing, and every bit an ‘assembly of the saints’.
Can the assembly of the saints be organic / ad-hoc and directed by the Spirit? Or did Christ / the apostles intend it to be driven by the calendar / clock (same church-time, same church-channel) as it is so often today?
(I’m still working that one out) …
Jack
April 18th, 2006 at 12:01 pm
Jason,
I just read your reply after posting my last one … yeah, the greek is a pain in the brain, I use it just to get better understanding, but don’t refer to it all the time. I’ve always heard pastors say “the church is people”, but then turn around in the next breath and refer to the church as a “building” and some place people “go to”. And I wonder if they even realize they’re double-talking? “Well, is it people or not” I want to shout!
It’s been my experience, in Seattle, and now here in the mid-west, that the kind of church you refer to with Kari and FICM is very rare. And the ones that do exist, often get corrupted - because somewhere down the line, they will see their success, and have to come up with a process to control and replicate it - and the minute that happens, it begins to institutionalize and die … I think it was John Wimber who said of the early Vineyard churches that if it got ‘blueprinted’ and ‘replicated’ it would cease to be a movement of freedom, and become just another denomination. Which it has.
I’ve read the testimony of a few worship leaders who after having an especially moving service where the Spirit was thick and moving, that they have discussed among themselves how to ‘replicate’ that - as if God / the Holy Spirit can be summoned by a formula approach to worship. Such seems to de-personalize God and render Him a faceless and impersonal power-source - and their services become like surfing a wave of the spirit … you know?
The church condition here in the rural midwest is pretty sad. Predominantly catholic, staunchly traditional, and lifeless. Contemporary worship in this area is Gaither music - akin to a catholic folk mass in the early 60’s. I’d likely visit a church like you describe, but there is no such thing here for 100 miles. If there is, the Spirit has kept it from me.
I hope it remains true to its roots, Jason.
Jack
April 18th, 2006 at 12:38 pm
Jack
I suppose you are right. They are rare. That’s why we drive almost an hour each Sunday to go to church … I mean to gather together with the people of like mind in a gathering time that is set and scheduled in order that we might encourage each other and sing some songs (smile).
The “go to church” thing is a little overboard though, isn’t it. I mean, if I were going to meet you for lunch, I would go to your house, or go to lunch with you. That doesn’t make it less personal, does it?
Anyway, looks like you and me and the only ones still flappin’ our jaws on this topic. I guess we figured it all out (smile!)!!! FINALLY!
Actually, the dialogue does bring us all to the same place, hopefully - - we all want to love Jesus, be loved by Jesus, and show other people that true love that sets us free to love and be loved!
So, back to the beginning - - parody and joke and rip on gatherings (a.k.a. “churches”) all you want. Just throw in some encouragement and hope, too!
Peace Out!
Jason B.
April 18th, 2006 at 2:12 pm
Concerning ‘balance’ between so-called good and bad words, I always remember the words of Ahab, King of Israel, about the prophet Micaiah, when he faulted Micaiah for never having anything “good or uplifting” to say:
2 Chronicles 18:7 GW (Ahab) The king of Israel told Jehoshaphat, “We can ask the LORD through Micaiah, son of Imla, but I hate him. Nothing he prophesies about me is good; it’s always evil.” Jehoshaphat answered, “The king must not say that.”
So, they trot out Micaiah, and he mimics/mocks Ahab’s legion of false prophets. And Ahab says:
2 Chronicles 18:15-17 GW The king asked him, “How many times must I make you take an oath in the LORD’S name to tell me nothing but the truth?” (16) So Micaiah said, “I saw Israel’s troops scattered in the hills like sheep without a shepherd. The LORD said, ‘These sheep have no master. Let each one go home in peace.’” (17) The king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, “Didn’t I tell you he wouldn’t prophesy anything good about me?”
Ahab was a real whiner. :p
The body needs it’s ‘uncomely’ parts - and I think the function of prophet is one of those uncomely parts - for truth is never pretty where sin is involved. And I do think this blog is serving a prophetic / call-to-repentence function.
1 Corinthians 12:14-27 GW As you know, the human body is not made up of only one part, but of many parts. (15) Suppose a foot says, “I’m not a hand, so I’m not part of the body!” Would that mean it’s no longer part of the body? (16) Or suppose an ear says, “I’m not an eye, so I’m not a part of the body!” Would that mean it’s no longer part of the body? (17) If the whole body were an eye, how could it hear? If the whole body were an ear, how could it smell? (18) So God put each and every part of the body together as he wanted it. (19) How could it be a body if it only had one part? (20) So there are many parts but one body. (21) An eye can’t say to a hand, “I don’t need you!” Or again, the head can’t say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” (22) The opposite is true. The parts of the body that we think are weaker are the ones we really need. (23) The parts of the body that we think are less honorable are the ones we give special honor. So our unpresentable parts are made more presentable. (24) However, our presentable parts don’t need this kind of treatment. God has put the body together and given special honor to the part that doesn’t have it. (25) God’s purpose was that the body should not be divided but rather that all of its parts should feel the same concern for each other. (26) If one part of the body suffers, all the other parts share its suffering. If one part is praised, all the others share in its happiness. (27) You are Christ’s body and each of you is an individual part of it.
Blessings! Jack
April 18th, 2006 at 4:37 pm
I never said to balance between good and bad. You are putting words in my mouth.
When I refer to “balance” or “being in the middle”, I mean between extremes. I think this website is extreme! But go ahead and give me a scripture to say you are supposed to be extreme.
I do understand that you are helping believers who are living in deception, or looking for someone to validate their fears of being under deception, or their anger about having been deceived.
That being said, I’m thinking more about the people I live and work with who are searching the life of faith, and stumble across a website like this that is full of cinicism and negativity, without giving the balance of hope. It simply validates their sideline view of people of faith, causing them to want nothing to do with it.
If this is prophetic, than prophecy life and hope into the lives of people.
I agree that these people who have hurt the founders of this website are wrong, but can we damn them? Can anyone besides the Judge? Can we dare say that God is still not allowing them in His grace with faults, failures and all? Maybe they are still part of the body. Infected? Sure. But aren’t you than doing just what you say I am doing - - that is, not showing concern for this part of the body? The unhealthy parts of the body need care and concern, not ridicule and mockery (aka “paradoy”).
Consider, if you can, that maybe …. just maybe God’s grace is possibly big enough that these people (CBC, etc) are actually still within it’s reach. Seriously, consider that! And if so, than they are part of the body. With that in mind, re-read the Corinthian passage above.
They need your care, concern, and prayer - - not your ridicule and mockery.
April 18th, 2006 at 5:22 pm
Nah … it’s not that big. Jimmy Swaggart big or Jim Bakker big maybe, but not CBC big.
If CBC repents, they can always write and sell a book about it and recoup their losses.
April 18th, 2006 at 7:05 pm
Here’s my thought on “church” and my life at the moment:
1) The church is the body
I “went to church” 4 times this past week–2 were organized church services, the other two times were named Bob and Michael. Which do you think I got the most out of? Bob and Michael. Our fellowship was so much richer than a church service could ever give me because we’ve been fellow pilgrims on the road for over 20 years now.
2) We’re not supposed to forsake the assembly
I have to have some contact with brothers and sisters on a regular basis. For me personally, I go to church when I really want to and make sure I fellowship (in person, by email, by phone) the rest of the time
3) The church is Jesus’ wife
I remember Lanny talking once about how much he would want to punch out anyone who dared talk negatively about his bride. Him, fine but his wife, look out. He applied that to Jesus, and how we should really be careful about how we talk about his bride, the church. That’s always stuck with me.
KM
April 19th, 2006 at 6:53 am
KariMichelle said:
If the ‘assembly’ of the saints is the hour long Sunday morning meeting, what is it when the saints go home? Disassembly? If the assembly is not to be forsaken, then the saints ought never disassemble and go home after the service, for in doing so, they forsake the assembly.
The assembly of the saints is not a physical thing, under the watchful eye of the clergy, in a building. The saints are assembled by Christ (Matthew 16:18), as living stones, into a spiritual (unseen) temple (1 Peter 2:4-9).
Practically speaking, we can not stay assembled physically 24×7 and accomplish the great commission of going OUT into the whole world. For in going out, we’d have to disassemble, unless we went everywhere as a group. Travel arrangements would be a real PIA for missionaries.
Therefore the assembly Paul spoke of, must be of a spiritual nature, and that can be accomplished without physical assembly. 
Might help to ask:
Who does the assembling? Men or Jesus?
What are we being assembled into? A building of wood? Or the New Jerusalem / the Bride of Christ?
Are the brothers and sisters on this list “assembled”?
1 Corinthians 5:3 GW Although I’m not physically present with you, I am with you in spirit …
That’s a tough one … according to Revelation 21, the bride of Christ is the “New Jerusalem” coming down from Heaven from God. See Revelation 21:2. And then in Revelation 21:9, the angel says to John: “Come, and I’ll show you the bride, the wife of the lamb” … what does the angel show to John? The New Jerusalem, in detail.
Lest we think Christ is marrying a building, consider it in context of 1 Peter 2:4-9, which tells us to come to Christ as living stones where He will assemble us into a spiritual temple, presumably the New Jerusalem.
There’s a key verse in Revelation 19:7, where the celebration begins because the bride has made herself ready. The wedding occurs occurs after the Mystery Harlot and Babylon are thrown down, Satan and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire, etc.
What I get from that is, simply that we (the Church) really aren’t the bride until we are ready, and with Christ, and assembled spiritually by Him into the ‘New Jerusalem’ … at this time, the Church is betrothed (we have the promise of being joined to Him) but we aren’t the Bride yet because we aren’t ready yet, nor are we with Him as described in Revelation 21. The Bride really doesn’t come on the scene, until there’s a ‘new heaven and new earth’ (Revelation 21:1).
The only reason I bring this up, Kari, is not to correct you or anything like that, because I too have said and written about the Church as the Bride of Christ … no, my concern is that often I’ve heard the clergy say, like you attribute to Lanny, that people dare not point out anything wrong with the Church because it is the ‘Bride of Christ’ … and that assertion is terribly dysfunctional - it’s like “don’t you say anything bad about your mother” even if she’s a prostitute - with that kind of mob-like protection of the Churches reputation, the Church gets away with murder (don’t you say nothin’ bad about the Church, that’s the bride of Christ).
On this side of Heaven, the Church is still being saved, healed, perfected, grown, etc. (1 Corinthians 13:9-13) And the Church still sins, individually, and corporately. Only after we are delivered from these flesh-pots will we be perfected (Romans 7:15-25).
I equate “Don’t say nothing bad about the Bride of Christ” with “touch not mine anointed” … both the hysterical claims of the clergy to isolate themselves and the institution from criticism.
The other thing that bugs me about saying that, is most people have trouble distinguishing between the church institution (programs, building, administrative heirarchy, dogma, denominationalism, etc.) and the true Church (saints/people). The People / Saints are indeed in Christ, and perfected by virtue of being IN Christ. The institution however, is a prostitute, buying and selling religious favor. The People/Saints will be saved. The institution will be burned up on the day of the Lord.
So I’m not keen with whitewashing the institution with the whole “the church is the bride of Christ, so don’t say nothing bad about her”. The people are indeed redeemed and betrothed to Christ. The institution is a whore. A close read of Revelation 18 will reveal the difference between the people and the institution. The one will be delivered from the belly of the other.
April 19th, 2006 at 7:43 am
Jack
You pull single words or phrases from what people say and misconstrue them to propogate your ideas. Kari clearly made the point that she considers church to have happened 4 times last week - twice at a bldg, and twice not at a bldg.
Loosen up, man! For real! This is what I am talking about when I say you all are so extreme on this website. If CBC is one extreme, you all are the other extreme!
There is nothing wrong with people gathering together on Sunday to sing, listen to someone talk about God, and pray for one another. There is nothing wrong with us giving money to an organization that we trust is going to use it to support those gatherings and help support missionaries and help support those in need. There is nothing wrong with order, with set times to get together, and designated places. God doesn’t despise order. Why do you?
If you and I have a set appt to get together every Wenesday for lunch, sharing scripture, and prayer, is that wrong? Can God not speak to us during that time, even though it is scheduled? Can we not be encouraged by one another b/c it is the same time every week?
There is nothing wrong with gathering. You don’t have to go, Jack. Nobody has to go to a Sunday morning 10:30 gathering at a designated place. But quit knocking people who do gather.
And the Bride of Christ is the body of believers. So when a group gathers together, they are the bride. No matter where, when, how often, etc. So these gatherings are part of the body. Don’t mock or ridicule the body parts (gatherings). And if they are weak in some way, like you quoted from Corinthians earlier, we are to show concern for them. What I missed was the part in that passage where it said to parody them.
April 19th, 2006 at 9:29 am
I think you missed this part, Jason …
I specifically addressed 2 assertions commonly advanced by the clergy, that we aren’t to forsake the assembly (where presumably the assembly is the Sunday morning meeting, and is most often used to drub the “go to church” mantra into the people), and, that the church is Jesus wife / the bride of Christ (so we aren’t to say nuffin’ bad about her, else Lanny will punch us in the nose).
With so many supporting scripture references cited, it would appear your dispute isn’t with me so much as it is with the sciptures that do not support your beliefs.
To that end Jason, I’ll ask you to show clearly from any credible version/translation of scipture, where it says we are to “go to church”, or that the “church is the bride.”
That’s a simple request, isn’t it?
On the church=bride thing, perhaps it would help to ask some questions - think before you speak - like what is the difference between engagement and marriage, betrothed and bride, invitation and wedding. When is a woman a fiancee (betrothed), a bride (her wedding day), a wife (after she’s married)? Is she the bride before she has made herself ready? Does the groom have to take / receive the woman before she is a bride? If we haven’t arrived at the wedding yet (i.e., the bride is not ready yet), is claiming to be the bride or wife premature?
Might also help to think about whether we are already saved, or, are in the process of being saved? If already saved, why did Paul talk about claiming his prize at the end of the race, or express concern over losing his salvation, or talk about ship-wrecked faith and the great falling away? Is it premature to claim “I’m saved” before I’ve shed this sinful flesh and I’m with Christ?
These aren’t terrible / dangerous things to ponder - pondering these things by the whole counsel of Scripture and the Holy Spirit will begin to expose the self-serving interpretations of scripture that have been propagated by the religious institutions of men to ensnare the saints and subjugate them to the clergy.
I’m not attacking Kari or you. I’m challenging religious ideas that every believer needs to question if they are to know the truth and freedom.
April 19th, 2006 at 9:50 am
Since I did clearly say I went to church 4 times last week, it is clear I meant all of THAT to be not forsaking the assembly. If I had not gone to a church building, I would still have been keeping that command. I won’t go in to how often you have to meet with brothers or sister to fellowship, b/c truthfully, I’m just not that interested in debating.
I agree the bride is people–I don’t think it’s right for us to launch personal attacks here against people like Doug, Br. Frank etc. They are the bride.
I do think it’s ok to openly question in a true spirit of wanting to know the truth.
I don’t think that is always what happens here, BUT I choose to linger anyway–I’m just not lying to myself like some people by trying to justify it. I often do things I KNOW are wrong, like Paul.
Over and out.
KM
April 19th, 2006 at 10:08 am
Where’s magledon when you need a good “blah blah blah” or a “borrrrrrring”?
You guys are arguing over semantics and word defintions to justify your own personal preferences regarding your own church involvement, whatever that may look like. You both are so busy trying to prove that the other guy’s “idea of church is wrong” that you forget that it looks different for everyone. Paul’s statement “don’t forsake the gathering” was purposefully vague on the details. Arguments like this are a waste of time. You guys might find this “fun” or interesting, but I’m getting tired of getting emails that detail your ongoing war. Take it offline or something. Swap emails.
Yes, I’m cranky. I hate religious arguments.
April 19th, 2006 at 10:55 am
Jack
Most of society calls going to a gathering of like-minded believers, church (little c). We also call all believers the Church (big C). You are confusing Big C with little c. I supposed we could have come up with another name. In fact, lots of “churches” do now. They don’t call it “church”. I’ve seen lots of place that call their weekly meeting a gathering, as I have referred. But it’s simply what we call it when we gather together at a set time in a set place. To gather you have to go. To meet me for lunch, you have to go. Go to the gathering is the same as going to church (little c). But I don’t go to an institution. I go to a gathering.
In fact, we could call it church when you and I meet at our Wednesday lunch meeting at noon to pray and share scripture together. Do you think it would offend God if we did that?
It’s really semantics you are arguing!
This is why I get so frustrated with so many people on this website (which, by the way, I haven’t heard from any of the website founders, just you, Jack). You preach against the intolerance of CBC (and the “institutions”). You all raise fist against them when they say you have to do it this way, or that way, hands raised, give 10%, run to the altar, dress up on Sunday, etc. But than you turn around and say it has to be done YOUR way. You all are the enlightened (same thing they say). You look down on the rest of us (same thing they do to you). You tell me to “think b/f I speak”. That is such a pious thing to say! All of us who go to a weekly meeting/get together/gathering/assembling of like minded believers are just little pawns who don’t understand what we are doing. We are robots under the slavery of the institution. We are still in the matrix. We are un-enlightened. Your intolerance is just the same as the CBC-type! I don’t have to NOT go to church! And I can say it just like that - - go to church. It just ain’t that big o’ deal, Jack!
I mean, seriously, is this what you waste your time doing — trying to get people to not say “go to church”?
I have no problem with you not going to a weekly gathering. I have no problem with you not “going to church”. I don’t care if you ever go to a building where other people of faith are meeting together to sing some songs and listen to preaching. To me, you are just as much a child of God as I am, having professed your faith in Christ. We are the same!
You don’t have to do what I do. But I don’t have to do what you do!
Again, you have put words in my mouth when you say that I should “show you where the scripture says to go to church.” I never said that, bro! I said that there is nothing wrong with going to church. Or let me say it like this: I said there is nothing wrong with gathering together with like minded believers on Sunday morning in a bldg to sing, preach, etc.
How about this - - YOU tell ME where is says it is WRONG for me to go to 123 Main Street in Anytown, USA on Sunday morning at 10:30 to sing about God, listen to someone talk about God, pray for my neighbor, eat some donuts and drink some bad coffee, give some money, and than go out to lunch!
It doesn’t.
And wether we are the Bride already, or going to be the Bride, fine. Maybe we aren’t the Bride yet. But I’m still kickin’ some tail, just like Lanny, if you talk about my woman! Now I don’t know that Jesus would kick some tail if you mock, ridicule, parody his “woman” (bride-to-be).
Per your leading, we have also referred to all believers as the Body of Christ. You still have not addressed how you feel justified mocking those in the Body of Christ who, in reality, need your concern and prayer.
I do want to know truth and freedom, and I definitely don’t think I have it all figured out. But I am still unconvinced that I should not “go to church”.
April 19th, 2006 at 11:01 am
You know what they say about arguing over the internet…
Is there a way to unsubscribe from a comment area?
April 19th, 2006 at 11:02 am
Oooh, look at that. I can manage my subscriptions!
/removes himself from this argument
April 19th, 2006 at 11:16 am
What war?
Can’t ideas be discussed (put to the test) without getting personal and defensive about it? Truth will withstand the fire of discussion / examination, the idols will be consumed as they should be …
Honestly, I don’t see where I’ve made this discussion a war, or made it personal - hence the use of questions, emoticons, lame jokes.
First, Jason said:
Then Kari said:
Clearly the idea of “go to church” has been advanced by several people, and the basis for that has been cited as the scripture “forsake not the assembling of the saints”.
The only point I want to make is, we ARE the Church, and we are assembled by Jesus in the Spirit 7×24 - our physical location matters not. Scripture never speaks of the church as a building, something we “do” or some place we “go”.
We are the spiritual building blocks that Jesus is assembling into a spiritual temple. Why do men seemingly always try to accomplish in the physical realm that which Jesus is doing in the spiritual realm? I believe it just goes to show the ignorance of men, and their propensity to continue building towers of Babel (vain works of flesh).
Kari also said:
You’ve no idea how many times I’ve heard brothers claim they were stifled by church staff/admin by that sort of implied threat, i.e., “don’t talk bad about the church, or Lanny wil punch you out”, or “Jesus will punch you out”.
About Lanny’s implied threat, Kari concluded:
Do you fault me for being alarmed that Kari expressed what sounds like fear-driven behavior (obedience / compliance)? So you know - I’ve heard similar things many times before - brothers and sisters stifled / oppressed by fear / threats.
Sigh … resignation …
April 19th, 2006 at 11:41 am
OMG!
In no way was I saying that Lanny would punch you out for talking bad about the church. His point and my point in quoting him was that we ought to have a “fear of the Lord” on such matters. Not fear of man, but fear of God.
You are NOT listening to my words, only what you want to believe that I am saying. If you knew me, or had read my previous posts, you would know I am not obedience/compliance, or fear driven.
I am however, fed up with going around and around with someone just interested in arguing.
KM
April 19th, 2006 at 12:11 pm
Kari,
You didn’t say anything about having a “fear of the Lord” - only that someone impacted you with an implied threat about punching out anyone who talked bad about His bride …
How is taking you at your written word not “listening to your words”?
Does that mean you are fed up with Jason?
He is after all the one who came in here with an agenda to change things, based on his personal assessment of “negativity” to his idea of a more pleasing (to him) balance of “negative” and “positive”. Jason has been quite forceful in arguing his personal agenda.
The “go to church” agenda has also been advanced, which I find peculiar on a blog dedicated to people who have bailed out of the institutional church (CBC and elsewhere) over abuse issues or otherwise. Has anyone thought that by forcefully advancing and defending the “go to church” agenda / mantra, they might be sewing more guilt in people who want to escape the guilt of institutionalized religion?
BTW, if you knew me, you’d love me.
April 19th, 2006 at 5:20 pm
Actually, I think a lot of the readers and bloggers who visit this site (including me) still go to church (institutional church, as Jack calls it). I didn’t go to church for a long time, but for the moment I have found a church that doesn’t make me puke. And everytime I go, I’m glad I went.
Jack, I don’t even know you and I love you.
April 19th, 2006 at 8:01 pm
PDXRN = Portland Registered Nurse?
Hey, that’s my number one criteria for a church!
There is one church where I would fellowship on a regular basis if I lived in that area - in Pittsburgh. The pastor is so laid back, never talks about money, an old delapidated building they don’t invest in other than staying even with the repairs. We did a free outdoor festival there a couple years ago, and visited the church Sunday morning - me and a keyboard player I’d just met the day before. The pastor basically said “do whatever songs your led to do - as long as you want” … people prayed individually aloud as led, a word or 2 came forth … it was a joy in that it was laid back and free. My friend who lives nearby says it’s always like that.
One of my ‘rubs’ is the whole subject of 1 Cor. 14:26, which speaks to the freedom we are to have in gatherings - that everyone brings something to the table, and in the Spirit of freedom, it can be shared in turn. As a songwriter / performing artist (I hate that term but it’s what most people relate to), it’s so rare to be able to sing an original song … I’ve belonged to a large church of 1000 where there are so many musicians competing for that ’special music’ slot (of which there are just 52 per year), that it would take me 5 years just to get through the songs on my first CD on a one per 6 month basis. Now where the scriptures say several times “sing a new song unto the Lord”, but the churches typically stick to the Christian ‘top 40′ according to CCLI, how do the new and timely songs of the Spirit get shared with the body? Try to get a slot in the agenda/bulletin, or stand up during the service with guitar in hand and say “pastor, I have a new song I’d like to share with the body” … it just doesn’t happen.
The worship team used to be told “just sing what they know - nothing new to confuse them - no more than 2 reps of each chorus - and no longer than 15 minutes total” - and then someone suggested we dress alike or wear the choir robes! Argh! It was pretty depressing being up there, like the pastors organ-grinder monkey’s, and being ’spiritually pregnant’ with a message in song, but effectively gagged by time/tradition, etc.
I wonder if the Church has any idea how much new music goes unheard because songwriters don’t have a venue in which to share the songs? And how much blessing and worship is stifled by not allowing the song of the Spiri