The Church and the Gay Bar
Posted on April 21st, 2006 by catalyst into the Uncategorized categoryThere is an article in the Washington Post detailing a fight between a local church and a gay bar.
Evidently, there is a gay bar called Be Bar opening near a Church in a poor area of DC. The Bishop of the church, (Bishop Long) opposes the bar primarly becuase the owners are gay. He quotes the Book of Romans as a supporting argument. In addition while the neighborhood is extremely poor, the Bishop drives a Rolls Royce to church and parks it out front for the world to see.
What I want to share took place in an online chat about this topic. The comments came from both sides. Some argued the church was being homophobic, while others argued the church has the right to oppose a gay bar. But one comment in particular stood out. And I thought I'd share it:
Wheaton, Md.: I don't know what Bishop Long is up to … I am a Christian, a fairly conservative one at that, and grew up going to church and youth group and church camp and all that. What would happen if a place like Be Bar wanted to open across a city block from my home church? Our church would have supported the business as a sign of development and economic growth in our area (more people in the area means more opportunities for ministry) and then attempted to befriend the folks who own and frequent the bar.
While the churches I have attended all my life agree with the same passage in Romans I that Bishop Long quotes, we also feel you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. As Christians, we are always wanting to bring others to Christ, and creating hoopla over someone's sexual persuasion and butting heads with the owners and local politians over their liquor license would not be the way to win these guys and their patrons to Christ. Jesus hated sin, but he loved sinners; he hung out with tax collectors and prostitutes and other dregs of society — not that these guys are scum, but the fact is the Bible does consider homosexuality a sin. But as Christians, we can chose to spread God's love by loving our neighbor or acting like Bishop Long. All I know is my current minister would love to sit down with these guys, in their bar, over a pint and discuss all maters of theology, ethics, business, sports, whatever with them. And my minister would not be there in a fancy suit with some gang of staff members and driving his snazzy Rolls Royce. A humble servant of God, Bishop Long is not.
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April 21st, 2006 at 6:47 am
Revelation 22:11 says ‘live and let live’.
April 21st, 2006 at 7:18 am
I think we should change the venue on May 25th from Kell’s to Panorama.
April 21st, 2006 at 2:07 pm
i’m sure that race doesn’t play a part in this either?
Whenever you have those who preach absolutes there will be hate.
April 22nd, 2006 at 11:17 am
Paul was quite clear in saying that we have no right to judge “those who are outside,” i.e. outside our own covenant community. In fact, we should not be surprise to discover that sinners sin. Our role is to do the best we can, by God’s grace, to represent Jesus to everyone we meet. That means representing the love of God wherever we go. When we judge those outside and then respond in a way that communicate rejection instead of embrace, we misrepresent both Jesus and his Good News.
April 22nd, 2006 at 12:48 pm
Amen
April 22nd, 2006 at 8:42 pm
For the preson who quoted Rev 22:11 as saying “…live and let live” you may want to read the book of Revelation first. This is after Jesus has come back for us, after the tribulation, and after the wheat has been seperated from the chaff. This verse is saying that those who have not accepted the Lord will be unjust still in hell an dthose that have been sanctified and redeemed by the Lord will be righteous still. Therefore the idea that this verse implies live and let live is ridiculous.
Jesus declares in Mark 16:15 that we are to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. So while you are where you are, preach the good news to everyone around you. It’s good news to share, not to keep to yourself only. So we are to affect those that are lost, not say live and let live.
Hopefully you will reread your scriptures and make a change.
April 23rd, 2006 at 3:14 pm
I agree with Larry’s comment, as well, but am curious how one who attends, even leads in, CBC, which “led the Measure 36 charge???” Also, believers are sinners, too.
April 23rd, 2006 at 4:52 pm
Comment ID #5737 Will Be Quoted Here]
it’s called saying the right things at the right times… just like selling dishwashers.
every preacher/religous leader learns this technique during their indoctrination in semainary or business school.
The only tangible difference between modern church associates and sears associates is that if you shop at walmart the sears associate isn’t going to tell you your going to hell for it… at least this is the feeling I get from these guys
April 23rd, 2006 at 5:02 pm
It’s K-Mart ya gotta watch out for …
April 25th, 2006 at 4:03 pm
Wow, I didn’t finish my thought in my previous comment. I meant to ask how someone who leads in CBC, which “led the Measure 36 charge” can speak about representing the love of God to outsiders and misrepresenting Christ and his Gospel through our judgment of them? I agree that marriage should be between one man and woman, but I also believe in many other moral issues that, were I to “duke them out” in the political arena, would accomplish only the alienation of unbelievers, which is precisely what Measure 36 did. The post-Measure 36 Oregon climate is tangibly different than the pre-Measure 36 climate. Everwhere “normal” Christians go, we must apologize for, compensate for or otherwise deal with the fall-out from the hateful message the Oregon “political Christians” sent through that whole debacle. Besides the adage, “you catch more bees with honey than with vinegar,” how about “it’s the Lord’s lovingkindness that leads people to repentance?” I can’t quote chapter & verse, but I know it’s in the canonized Scripture.
April 25th, 2006 at 5:29 pm
Yeah,
I tend to agree with you Matrix, about Measure 36. The problem is, so many Christians live inside a bubble of “Church” and don’t have a clue what the world is thinking.
I think if they could stop and see how they are perceived they would spend more time helping others, but instead we get Measure 36.
What to do, what to do?
April 26th, 2006 at 2:16 pm
catalyst: “…but the fact is the Bible does consider homosexuality a sin. …”
Please forgive me for nitpicking your excellent comment, but it would be more accurate to say, “… the Bible may consider same-sex behavior a sin.” Homosexuality (i.e. having same-sex attractions) isn’t necessary a sin in itself any more than heterosexuality is a sin. The fact remains that the word “homosexuality” did not exist in the first century or even the concept of sexual orientation. Whether or not the Bible prohibits modern day, committed, same-sex relationships is a matter of personal doctrine and far from established Biblical fact.
Beyond my symantic and doctrinal criticisms, your post was very thoughtful and I hope Bishop Long and his ilk will ponder it.
April 26th, 2006 at 6:30 pm
Norm, good point. The Bible does consider “same-sex behavior” as sin…whether it’s in a “modern day, same-sex relationship” or in some other context. So, your first point was great, “homosexuality” is not a term in the Bible, but your second not so great, since it’s actually NOT “a matter of personal doctrine and far from established Biblical fact.”
April 26th, 2006 at 7:49 pm
I have some questions about the gay issue. Although some wonder whether or not there is any such a thing as someone being born gay or with homosexual tendencies, I don’t question it. In an extreme case, what about hermaphrodites? There can be any number of genetic and/or hormonal reasons why someone would have a biological tendency to, at the very least, not be especially interested in the opposite sex.
The Episcopal Church, the quintessential devil when it comes to gay rights issues, says there are two kinds of homosexuals: 1) those who are gay as a result of biological factors, and 2) those who who gay as a life-style choice. From their very liberal point of view, those in the second case should repent of biblically immoral life-choices. On the other hand, those in the first case should, at best, choose a celibate life-style. What do you think of their position?
The fact is, it’s now culturally acceptable, if not cool, to be gay. So what if a kid enters into adolescence and discovers he’s not attracted to the opposite sex. What does he conclude? What if he simply has a “gift of celibacy”? Probably not. The only politically and culturally acceptable conclusion he can come to is that he is gay, even though that may not be the case at all.
The fact is, no matter what one’s genetic tendencies, we are all responsible for the moral choices we make.
April 27th, 2006 at 6:11 am
Why do we spend so much time focusing on physical/temporal things, when Jesus continually emphasized spiritual things? One of the most upsetting revelations I’ve had from the Lord has to do with homosexuality.
It started several years ago, when a friend and I had been praying relentlessly for his healing of a chronic pain condition to no avail. There are chronic conditions I have as well that have not responded to prayer, whereby others have. One morning, while pondering those burdens that don’t seem to respond to prayer, the Spirit asked “don’t you know that the illnesses you carry in your body are the manifestation of illnesses in the Church?” … the Spirit eventually led me to Colossians 1:24 which says:
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church: (Colossians 1:24 KJV)
That set me to thinking about some obvious parallels between physical afflictions in God’s people, to the spiritual conditions in the Church.
Imagine - people with chronic, untreatable obesity, bearing the burden for a Church (people) who insist on eating / digesting unhealthy things, like the doctrines of men and demons, dogma, etc., that weigh them down spiritually and prevent them from realizing their true identity as Sons of God and Priests and Temples of the Holy Spirit. Imagine that the Lord would appoint someone to bear burdens for a sinful Church that insists on consuming mass quantities of Pharisee yeast, and the way that burden manifests in the one the Lord appoints is obesity.
Burden bearing isn’t such a hard concept - after all, Christ bore our burdens, and if we are indeed being conformed to the image of Christ, we too will be burden bearers. That whole “take up your cross” thing, where our cross is like Christ’s in that we are “crucified with Christ”. Not so far fetched the notion that the closer we draw to Christ, the more Christ-like we become, the more we bear the burdens of His people …
Imagine some of the other similarities - a Church that chronically turns on its own - brother fighting and persecuting brother - brothers divided against each other by denominationalism among other things - it is a picture of the Body of Christ attacking one another, instead of living in unity. Sort of like a spiritual cancer in the body. Disunity = cancer.
What might the spiritual equivalent of homosexuality be?
God made woman for man in mirrored image of the relationship between Christ and the Church (Ephesians 5:21-33). Only a man/woman relationship can physically procreate. Only a Jesus/person relationship can spiritually procreate (read: make someone born again).
But when man turns to man, or woman to woman, there is no physical procreation. It is a fruitless joining of the flesh. What is the spiritual equivalent of man/man and woman/woman relationship?
Religion.
Religion, where men (mankind) turn to men never results in spiritual procreation (i.e., being born again). Religion is also a fruitless effort of the flesh. Only by joining with God can men be born again.
Is homosexuality simply the the physical manifestation of the human sin of religion?
What if homosexuals are simply bearing the burden of the sin of religion in the Church?
Since all disease and dysfunction is ultimately the result of sin, how can homosexuals and homosexuality be treated any different than anyone else?
What I believe the Lord has shown me about the parallels between physical affliction/burdens and sin in the Church has given me a whole new perspective of those who are afflicted with a condition they can not overcome.
As far as I believe, the real ‘homosexuality’ is ‘religion’.
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. (2 Chronicles 7:14 KJV)
Jack
April 27th, 2006 at 8:46 am
We are all born with and in “original sin,” with a totally depraved nature. That nature manifests itself in countless ways. One way it manifests itself in some people is through warped sexuality of various kinds. So, can people be born with attraction to the same sex? Yes. Is it biological? No. It’s in the soul, in a person’s “nature.”
April 28th, 2006 at 10:44 am
I think soul is a type of music and that’s about it Matrix. But we can all have our opinions. Maybe our soul IS our chemical makeup. After all, I don’t see any references in the bible to DNA and brain-chemical structures. The research didn’t exist. Thank the creator tho… that he gave us scientists and doctors to help us figure ourselves out…
I feel that if ppl can be born with a penis AND a vagina, they can probably have the mental make-up of one that is pre-disposed to a different sexual nature than their body potrays.
I think this is as trivial as calling black ppl in the Bible, Cursed. But the bottom line is that humans and even god’s followers will always be stuck on breaking others down when it makes them feel JUST or closer to god than another.
Imagine if all the money that goes to make sure GAYS can’t get health insurance as a couple, went to feeding ppl in foriegn lands that have been plundered by foriegn powers.
I really feel that our own moral superiority, as educated Americans, in the world as a CHRISTIAN NATION, and a NEW LAND, is more sinful then a man and man having a sexual encounter in a hot tub.
April 28th, 2006 at 5:04 pm
Fatrix (what the #$*^% is a “fatrix”???), not sure why your emphatic message is addressed to me. I am not in the “camp” that hates and/or bashes gay people (or any other “group” for that matter), and you’re preaching to the choir. WHAT is “as trivial as calling black peole cursed?” That comment doesn’t make any sense to me.
My point (in my previous message, that you responded to) is that I believe people can be born with all kinds of sinful tendencies, wherever they happen to “reside,” including sexual perversion of many kinds (which includes same-sex “stuff”). I definitely don’t say that to “break others down.” Trust me, painfully aware that I’m as sinful as anyone else, and I doubt anyone who knows me would describe me as “morally superior.” I’ve never put any energy (or money) into trying to block gay couples from receiving medical benefits, and never would, and I agree with you that feeding the poor (here and elsewhere) is a bigger priority than that. So, back off!
I’m with you.
Matrix
April 28th, 2006 at 5:29 pm
Hey “Free to be a Copycat”,
What’s up with imitating the screen name of “Free From the Matrix”?
April 29th, 2006 at 11:44 am
Free from the Fatrix a.k.a Magledon
I just wanted to stir the kettle a bit… get’s kinda stale in here with all these CBC staff throwing their “knowledge” around… and the private meetings at far off locations is kinda weird too since we have such an easy forum to communicate right here. You know JP! The BLOG.
My use of the Fatrix is to mock “Free from the Matrix”.
It may only be funny to me. But if FFTM is saying that he/she is free from the church matrix, most of his/her comments don’t really show it.
In fact, I feel that there are alot of folks who come on this BLOG, bash CBC about how corrupt it is and then they just float right over the whole societal wrong that is religion. We need to find out why humans are attracted to ppl who steal their money!
I guess I feel that ppl who confess to be Followers of Christ on this blog, often choose to prove it by saying the same things and using the same terminology that CBC and the church use. I’ts like reciting the recipe for mom’s home cooked casserole. I’ts blah. PPL here are more scared to explore their faith than they are to bash of few of it’s leading heads.
This tells me that most here are just beginning to feel things are unjust and aren’t necessarilly trying to identify any problems with the system we see today. It’s so much easier to just bash the ppl with the offices and the cars without actually proposing any solutions. I guess i’m ready for solutions but sometimes that means a war of ideas. So far nobody here has shown up with a decently sharp sword. Just blah, blah, Josh Harris this cranky old housewife author that. Blah Blah Blah. substance???
anyways..
by the way this is magledon and I’m just being a little butt head this weekend. I think spring makes me all giddy!
May 1st, 2006 at 10:54 am
Hmmm, Magledon is almost ‘noodle game‘ backwards …
I don’t know that the Bible tells anyone to identify and propose solutions to problems with the system … far as I know, the Bible tells people who are caught up in the system, to come out of it … like in Revelation 18:4
And once the people have come out of it, the sytem is thrown down to destruction with violence. Just noticed that the sins of Babylon (the religious system of men) are referred to as “sexual sins” in Revelation 18:3 … together with John$$$ earlier comment that religion = homosexuality, that scripture is pretty eye-opening.
I’ve heard lots of definitions of what the ‘Babylon’ of Revelation 18 is - some say religion in general - some the catholic church - and we could probably debate the identity of Babylon for weeks and get no where. There is no disputing however that Babylon is a whore - and that as a whore Babylon has swallowed saint and prophet alike (Revelation 18:24), which I guess is why Revelation 18:4 calls God’s people to “come out of her” before God throws Babylon down to ruin.
Putting it bluntly - ain’t no amount of makeup and clothing that will change an unrepentant whore into a lady / bride. By definition, a whore sells favor, and anyone who thinks they can change a whore from the inside will end up being a ‘John’ because they have to compromise themself and the truth for what little cooperation (favor) they get from the whore.
And if God is doing as Revelation 18 says, and is throwing down the whore/Babylon, to work within the whore/Babylon to fix it or change it, is effectively working against God who intends to throw it down.
Perhaps Noodle Game, the key is as simple as stop doing and start being (the church). And in terms of being the church, doing what God asks of us - like - quit screwing around and trying to build a church on earth (of which there are many divided and feuding bodies), and follow Christ and let Christ assemble His one true Church.
Why not just get out of God’s way and let the damn thing fall?
May 1st, 2006 at 5:56 pm
Unscrupulous said-
Why not just get out of God’s way and let the damn thing fall?
Are you speaking of the Evangelical church U M?
Are you speaking to a nation saved and unsaved U M?
-Unscrupulous Indeed
P.S the following comment is the most ignorant thing I’ve heard on this blog.
“ain’t no amount of makeup and clothing that will change an unrepentant whore into a lady / bride”
Is this how you really think of people?
May 1st, 2006 at 6:15 pm
Fatrix, I’m not sure what universe you live in, but if you think that my comments indicate I’m not free from the legalistic, aka CBC/MFI matrix, then I don’t know what universe you live in. Whatever.
I’m free from legalism. That doesn’t mean I disregard the Bible; au contraire. I embrace the Bible, which is WHY I’m against Christianity based on human behavior (what do I do / not do to “prove” that I’m holy / free) and embrace Christianity based on the Gospel (what Jesus did on the cross to reconcile me to God, which I could never do through my behavior).
F you, Fatrix.
Love,
Matrix
May 1st, 2006 at 8:08 pm
The Bible differentiates between the whore, and the people she’s swallowed. I would have thought God’s merciful calling out His people from the whore would make plain the difference between the two, and His clear intent to deliver and save His people.
Who’s the moron, Noodle Game?
May 2nd, 2006 at 9:36 am
I don’t even know what the definition of moron is U M. But if you would rather sling arrows than discuss what is on our hearts then by all means…
You have the floor!
I feel that as people, grown from the christian system, we have little idea how much our words drive the people who could be helped, away.
If you wanna help somebody cut back their drinking because it is drowning their goals, do we call them a drunk asshole or do we tell them we are ready to help if they choose to cut back/stop the drinks?
I believe we were discussing the GAY BAR and the fact that today, Christianity has buit-in divides. These divides are evident by the fact that a christian pastor feels justified by Scripture to turn away those undesirables from his church and even his neighborhood.
The fact that other pastors from large church’s don’t come to the defense of these people being discriminated against, is disasterous when you look at the big picture that these undesirables see in front of them everyday. At least we are seeing the Church of Christ open their doors to us folks. But how boring is that church? And substance? Maybe. Open arms? Yes!
Jesus said these undesirables are worth MORE in the Kingdom of heaven. People who go around claiming God’s love, God’s blessing, and then discriminate by basically cancelling other’s ability to get into heaven?
What is going on? What are people like alot of us on this BLOG doing to help the “least of these?” Are we truly any closer to god than this pastor in DC? What is our duty in dealing with a pastor such as this? Do we call the ACLU? Do we fast? Do we make phone calls to TBN? IS it hopeless to hold church leaders accountable to us in this present day? Maybe this BLOG is a force to create a tide?
My point U M is that the reason I’m here is to get an idea of what “out-of-the-box” christians are doing to justify Jesus’ existence.
So far, what I’ve gotten is a mixture of hot heads who’ve spent too much time reading one book and others who’ve learned that something is wrong but don’t know what solutions are in store.
I’ve lowered myself to insult and sarcasm before on this BLOG. At this time, and from now on, I would like to come here and take in what god has laid on peoples hearts.
May 2nd, 2006 at 11:15 am
Several years ago, the locall UCC congregation interviewed a lesbian and her partner. As her confirmation came up for a vote, UCC members called in everyone still on the membership role, whether they lived locally or had attended the church in the last 20 years or not - just to solicit their “no” vote. The majority voted to extend “the call”, however the church by-laws required a 2/3rds majority, and so it failed. The battle erupted in the local paper and another vote was held, with the same result. Not long after, nearly all those voting to call the pastor, left the church and formed their own church, but oddly, they did not extend “the call” to the lesbian minister but had an interim pastor for a year. Finally, they called the lesbian minister who moved to town with her partner.
She joined the town ministerial association. All the other ministers in town (about 24 active and a number of retired), quit the ministerial association. In the spring, when they held the annual town-wide lenten (?) service, she signed up for the choir. All but one church (hers) withdrew from the service and it was cancelled by the organizer(s).
In the course of all this, the editorial section of the local paper was swamped with letters, for nearly 6 months. As one group of people wrote in for tolerance and ‘diversity’, the more vocal of the pastors were successful in putting down the ‘tolerance’ crowd with fundamentalist interpretations of scripture. It has split the 24 (?) churches in this small (pop. 7200) rural midwest town.
Here, it’s not one pastor who needs to be confronted, but all of them. Who’s up to that task? They only have power because people support them. To fix problems like this, people need to “vote with their feet” (oh, and their wallets).
Walking away is really the best solution.
…
Over the weekend, I had my nephew over to help with some yard work. I’m 50 now, and not in good shape - digging up and transplanting large shrubs is hard on me, and Kolton is a great kid and big help to me. Whenever I watch him work, I’m really impressed that he is an example of how Jesus worked … if I grab a shovel and start digging a hole, Kolton is right there by my side, digging too. Digging out a tree he’s opposite me, spading the soil and using the shovel as a pry bar to bust the root ball loose from the ground. Rarely do I have to tell Kolton what to do - because he is so attentive to what I’m doing, and he follows me.
The institutional church is not at all like that - they aren’t attentive to what the Father is doing - they have to have a building before they can reach the lost - and then they try to reach the lost by programs and gimmicky campaigns. All they succeed in doing, is attracting other believers who are excited by a new program. They do very little for the lost, except make sons of hell of them.
But as for the sons of God - those who follow, and who are attentive to what the Father is doing and who do as they see the Father do, they are indeed out there, loving and helping people on a personal and individual basis, without pretense or gimmick. We don’t hear much about them Magledon, I suppose because they don’t have an agenda of self promotion, but rather an agenda of ‘Jesus promotion’.
I don’t mean to be a cynic really, it’s just that I’ve learned from experience that the institutional church does not represent Christ as much as they represent themselves and their institutions. They are not an example of what/how to do anything for Christ.
How I hope that for every ‘Bishop Long’, there is a humble servant of the Lord to extend God’s love to the ‘undesireables’. And I’m certain that the ‘undesireables’ know the difference between the likes of ‘Bishop Long’ and his ilk, and a humble servant filled with the spirit of Christ.
You’re right, there is little encouragement - maybe the best course of action, is for us to pray for opportunities to be Jesus to the undesirables, and thereby be encouraged by Christ moving in us.
Jack
May 8th, 2006 at 10:24 am
Thanks John444
If you could submit your life bio and how you arrived at this revolutionary idea of staying at home and praying, I’d love to read it. I’m not trying to sound denigrating> I’m intrigued John 444
Jack is 50 and has many years of wisdom
I/many on blog are 20’s - 30’s and have confusion
How do we get to the solutions?
Does it require us to lose our earthly possessions, standing up for what’s right when we see “men of god” misrepresenting Christ’ message?
Must we come from our comforts?
Does it mean that people of a different political or sexual model will not be included in these prayer sessions?
This is where we can begin to change things.
The power of technology has not been utilized to affect the message of the modern church. We still have Pat Robertson up there putting bounty’s on people’s heads.
At some point the modern church is going to come togather. It’s just a matter of eliminating the hate that the elders wanna try to bring to the table.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:16 am
Magdelon,
Did you ever see the old movie “Starman” (1984)?
I remember a line Jeff Bridges said: “You are at your very best when things are (at their) worst” … I often am remided of that when commisserating about the state of the Church and hoping one day we’ll quit hiding behind our differences … I fear the only thing that will draw the Church together, is catastrophe.
There has been a pleasant surprise recently, for my wife. She’s teaching high school ‘family and consumer science’ (home ec). It’s her first year in this school, and despite her age (also 50) the kids have really tested her. One morning after she’d gone to school, I had a leading to pray for her and I was surprised at the images I was seeing and vocalizing in prayer - simply, I saw Christ wrap her up in loving embrace, and that’s how I prayed for her - that she would feel the love of Christ tangibly, all day.
She came home from school and had several uplifting stories to tell me, unlike many other times when she vented complaints.
The next day, she came home to tell me 5 girls came to her room during lunch and asked to eat lunch with her. Within 2-3 days, it was 9 girls. And they always begin by talking about Jesus / their faith.
The revelation came today - that the imagery of Jesus embracing Karen like that, was symbolic of the Jesus in those 9 girls who are now embracing Karen on a daily basis. Karen has said several times lately that it is the highlight of her day.
I want to give more thought to your questions Magdelon and an appropriate answer.
Jack
May 8th, 2006 at 3:31 pm
Magledon,
I’m sorry for my previous dyslexia when typing out your name. Attribute it to a senior moment, OK?
I didn’t finish my previous thought about the 5-9 girls surrounding Karen for a fellowship lunch every day. My point in sharing that is, I brought my petitions to God concerning Karen’s job hassles many times since last September when she started - it’s been a rough go for her - leaving her previous teaching post of 22 years to marry me 8 years ago cost her many years and about $15K dollars a year on the teacher’s wage scale … and when she was laid off a year ago by the school in Princeton and we moved to Granville (IL), she was set back $15K again. It’s been a bitter pill to swallow for her. Combine that with several other factors, and she’s really struggled this year.
Since there is no work at all here in the rural midwest for an ex-aerospace employee like me, all I can do is be her help-mate: make her a home (out of a fixer-upper), cook, clean, and support her every way I can as a teacher. The rest I’ve had to surrender in prayer.
And so it seems that finally, God had the pieces in place to make a move to improve Karen’s situation. He leads me in prayer, and the very next day - as Karen would say it - something astonishing (for that school and group of kids) happened. The day after praying in the manner the Spirit led me to pray, she’s surrounded by a group of teenage girls who love her, and want to be around her, who listen to her and validate her.
That was entirely God’s doing - a “suddenly” if you will. She didn’t put up flyers to advertise a Bible study or a fellowhip lunch-bunch … she was simply resigned to finishing out the school year and looking forward to summer - and then, from out of the blue, God moved.
My only part was apparently praying in response / agreement with what I sensed the Spirit wanted to do for Karen - and that is surround her and overwhelm her with the love of Christ. It just happened that He wanted to express it through a group of young people who are filled with Christ. And though there is no official declaration as such, they are in essence “breaking bread” together and enjoying a “love feast”.
…
My outlook has changed a lot over the years, from one striving to do works and looking for God’s endorsement during/after the fact, to one of resting in the knowledge that Christ is in charge and knows what He is doing and I am not going to do anything until He specifically instructs me to move. Sort of like Peter fishing and casting his net off the one side of the boat all day and catching nothing, and finally at the end of the day Christ says “cast your net off the other side” and Peter drags in a huge catch. The former was Peter’s effort without Christ’s direction, the latter was Christ’s doing through Peter’s obedience. Action without direction is fruitless I think.
One of the ways I’ve begun looking at things, now that I’m surrendering to the rural midwest where I’m learning a lot about farming, is through the ‘gardening’ metaphor so often mentioned in scripture. Those scriptures really come to life as I clean up a garbage pile behind the garage, kill the weeds, till the soil, fertilize, plant, water, prune, weed, deal with rabbits and insects, and finally enjoy the harvest. It’s a lot of work, but rewarding, and a great way to get perspective on God’s work with us - as often as scripture refers to God as a Gardener and to us as His planting.
Just meditating on all of that, I find myself wondering how it is that me or anyone else would assume the role of Gardener? After all, I’m His planting, and in all the years I’ve been gardening and landscaping now, I’ve never seen one plant tend to another plant. I’ve never seen the soil till itself - never seen the plants pull weeds, etc. If He’s the Gardener, and we’re all His planting, do we really have any responsibility other than to grow and produce fruit? (I don’t have an answer, just musing …)
Along those lines Magledon, I’ve begun noticing places in scripture that underscore His responsibility in calling, saving, baptising, teaching people. And I’ve allowed myself to take those scriptures at face value, and to believe them that HE is the one who does the work, and my responsibility is simply to cooperate. I’m sure someone would label that ‘passive Christianity’ but that would be to marginalize what scripture says.
For example, John 3:16 says it was God who does the giving, and our whole responsibility is to “believe” (though I think the better word is “trust”). When you trust someone to do something, you are really surrendering all control, and relying completely on that person to do what He says. Saving us 100% the work of Jesus, with nothing required of us but surrender (trust).
In keeping with the idea that Jesus is the one who does the work, John 12:32 says that it is Jesus who draws all men unto Himself. No need to go on a pew-filling membership drive, advertise in the newspaper and radio, or put up a church web site. Jesus does His own advertising.
John 16:18 says it is the Holy Spirit who convicts the world of sin. No need for me to confront and accuse sinners of their sin (read: why tell the homosexual “that’s a sin and you’re gonna go to hell if you don’t repent” - can’t we trust the Holy Spirit to do the convicting like scripture says?)
Matthew 3:11 says that it is Jesus who baptizes us with the Spirit and Fire. And all we really need to do is present ourselves to Jesus for that baptism or to put it another way, we just need to ask for it like it says in Luke 11:13.
1 John 2:27 says that it is the Holy Spirit who teaches us. In my experience, I’ve never really taught anybody anything - but - what I have written (http://www.lordyouare.com/articles) has confirmed the Holy Spirit’s teaching for a lot of people. I view my job through the story of Lazarus resurrection. The Lord is the one who raised Him to life - and then He dispatched His followers ot take the grave clothes off of Lazarus. I’ve always viewed Lazarus grave clothes, spices and tomb as metaphoric of doctrines of men, religious programs and institutions. All I’ve ever been called to do, is help people put that stuff off of them so they can enjoy complete freedom in Christ. (My calling is wonderfully illustrated in a dream the Lord gave me a few years ago, called Strange Fishing Dream).
Matthew 16:18 says that it is Jesus who builds His Church. There’s a lot of men trying to build churches, and typically they start with a building - there’s countless churches of men, most divided by doctrine, unity is a farce. But what Jesus is building is Spiritual, and there’s just One Church that Jesus is building. Concerning Jesus Church where Jesus is the cornerstone, architect and buider, 1 Peter 2:4-9 says all we do is present ourselves to Jesus as living stones, whereupon He does the assembly. What He’s building will last - what we’re building will be torched on the day of the Lord.
My point in all of this, is there is a clear theme that develops from these scriptures - Jesus is the one who does the work. Period. All we do is submit, trust, wait, watch, and participate cooperatively when He calls upon us to do something. It is a more ‘organic’ view of the Church, and suits me a lot better than the ‘institutional’ view. In fact, I’ve come to view the modern incarnation of the church as simply old testament temple worship re-incarnated. Where you used to have a synagogue, you now have a church building. Where you used to have a Rabbi, you now have a minister, etc. And then, there’s Jesus - following the Spirit, wherever He leads, a pilgrim / sojourner, not confined by buildings, the law, tradition, etc. He’s just BEing what God made Him to be and following where God leads and doing as He sees God do.
While waiting on the Lord, there is great peace in just being the plant He’s made you to be, in the garden spot where He planted you.
The Gardener knows what He’s doing.
Blessings! Jack
May 9th, 2006 at 9:21 am
Thanks John444
I see the position that you are in in your life and your faith in Christ has sinificantly held your hand thru some very large transistions.
You have peace in knowing you are were you “should” be.
It may have taken 30 years or so but the along the way I presume you’ve had this image of yourself as a willing participant in God’s will.
“The rest I’ve had to surrender in prayer”
The statement above is a humbling one. On the other hand, from the size of the above comment, you really disected your emotions based on scripture. When this occurs, you are telling me that you need validation by putting those verses/references into your message.
I’m not attacking but I’m merely trying to dissect a phenomenon I’ve witnessed in my experience growing up in a very church-affiliated household.
It’s this area I can’t get too. It’s as if I have a more vivid walk with god when I’m following his guidance rather than memorizing the texts.
I mention this because I’ve come to realize that the most EXCLUSIONARY of christians are those who impliment this verse/knowledge/lifestyle approach that you have chosen.
I’m not necessarilly lumping you into some sort of group, but am merely trying to find out how you began this approach. Why you choose this approach today? And whether you could remain in your faith/lifestyle/relationship without that approach to faith.
May 9th, 2006 at 3:30 pm
I can see how it would look that way. However, it has more to do with debunking commonly taught religious doctrines. I don’t know your background/upbringing, but know mine, and countless others with very similar experience.
From birth, I was taught the “go to church, go to sunday school, tithe, submit to a local pastor” brand of religion. I subscribed to that approach for nearly 40 years - until the day everything I’d labored for imploded and I found myself alone - really alone - and cried out “all I want is You, Lord!”
I spent between 2-3 years living alone in an apartment, waiting on God, fasting and praying, reading scripture, etc. In fact, His instruction to me during that time was WAIT ON ME (Isaiah 40:31). Amazingly, my apartment number was W-8 (as in WAIT) which served as a constant reminder of His direction. While it may seem the emphasis was reading scripture, it had far more to do with seeking Him and taking comfort in His presence. Everything tanked for me in ‘94, and if not for His presence and tangible love, I’d have taken my own life.
For several years, I read scripture on a daily basis, though I am more of an “it’s in there somewhere” kind of person now than a fountain of scripture references. Because I am a writer of sorts, I do look up the scriptures I refer to for one main reason: there is always some religious person trying to spin scripture into a religious yoke people must wear - someone who makes scripture legalistic and binding. I refer to scripture in that way to refute them.
As you might imagine, what I am espousing is not main-stream, especially here in the midwest, where I am often confronted and chastised because I don’t “go to church” … when confronted, I meet their assertions with scripture. What I’ve observed is most people who profess to be Christian know very little scripture, but are instead parrots of their ministers sermons and sunday school teachers lessons, or they regurgitate the views of some Christian pop author - like Tim LaHaye, Rick Warren, Bruce Wilkinson, et al. They don’t so much express what they believe, as they regurgitate their programming. To that end, I use scripture that way to shut them up, or challenge them to think for themselves.
Even today, people nullify scripture for the sake of their traditions. Refuting their traditions with scripture is typical Jesus.
The reason I cited so many verses in what I wrote Magledon, mostly has to do with the questions you are asking - many of which seem to be rooted in the basic belief that we have to DO something to correct an errant pastor, church, sinner, etc.
I’ve felt that way too at times - that we have to DO something - but have asked myself where we get the notion that we have to DO something to correct individuals and / or institutions? In my experience, the “DO something” message is the basis of nearly every sermon I’ve ever heard - after all, the pastor presumes to speak to the crowds to motivate them. Whether it is to give, or labor, or study/read, etc., there is almost always an exhortation to “DO” something in the message, and invariably that “DO” something message is underscored with scripture (typically out of context), or, the interpretation thereof is rooted in institutionalized churchianity.
By identifying scriptures where the DOer is Christ, it helps to untangle all any notions of religious works we must perform, that have made ’sons of hell’ out of many of us.
Consider Jesus words “my burden is easy, and my yoke is light” … how many people who are heavily involved in the religious program of an institutional church can honestly say “my burden is easy and my yoke is light”? Or have all the things they DO for their church become a difficult burden and heavy yoke? Those who think they must DO the tithe - I wonder if they think that is an easy burden and yoke, or a hard one? I’ve just found, that to help people cast off those heavy yokes, only the sword of scripture is effective in cutting them loose.
If I weren’t called to a ministry of liberation, my approach would be like FFTM’s - I would not make scripture references at all, but rather discuss the Spirit of the matter instead.
Or, I could just be anal.
Jack
May 10th, 2006 at 11:34 am
Thanks John444
You have quite an interesting life… regarding the path you have followed. It’s possible that if I were confronted by these daily bombardments of “Why don’t you go to church?” I too, would use verses to proclaim my liberty from those chains of churchhood.
Many relationships I was born into and have associated with since childhood still have this “Why don’t you go to church?” approach. I’ve had to basically renounce my religion because it was easier and more efficiant at getting these folks, off my back!
I am more peaceful after this decision. I’m saddened sometimes by some of my friends actions. Not so surprised by many others.
There are so many lines of appearence regarding how “the saved should act” be a temple of God” ect. But when we come down to it, these are all temperal human flaws. These people who hounded me are NOT strong in their faith. If they knew the Christ I know, they would NOT care that I have a tattoo and drink beers. That I listen to pop music. That I choose not to attend a church.
The bottom line is that everyones life is different from birth to death. All these social taboos that become a frequent topic of discussion on this BLOG are just temperal. And the only real feelings we are going to have about any subject on this blog, are going to be determined by our life experiences.
Once people become saved but still exist in this state of asthetic christianity, they have NOT truly experienced gods love yet.
They’ve only been prayed over by some guy who works at Intel and has a couple kids. What I’m experiencing now in my life, this state of knowing and not knowing, is exilirating.
Freedom in gods love really means, to me, that I don’t need all these other christians approval. And if they don’t accept me for the person I am than they are free to do so. My problem comes when those same people reach positions of power which allows them to physically, emotionally and spiritually taint Christ’s message.
How do we, being the folks on this BLOG, interact with others with this policy of inclusion, be it, “progressive catholics”, “liberal Mormons”, “anarchist southern baptists”?
The hunger is here. There are millions of american believers like us on this blog, who would love to see TBN just hand over their millions worth of TV gear and broadcasting power to people who truly have open hearts and forgiveness in their hearts. Anybody who feels o.k. with TBN has got to explain some things to me. I am at a complete loss as to how TBN operates in this fashion and claims to be spreading the “Gospel”.
May 10th, 2006 at 12:39 pm
I agree with that, Magledon!
So many people think that approval and/or agreement is the basis of unity. It’s not … look where disagreement has brought the church …
Wouldn’t it be wonderful if when we became believers, we were issued a pair of “Christ-colored glasses” that we might see one another as Christ sees us.
I drink beer and wine, write and listen to Christian and secular music and have a real penchant for parody, watch secular movies, have far more non-Christian friends than Christian ones. I swear when I’m mad or hurt myself. I think we ought to leave gays the hell alone, drugs, prostitution and abortion should be legal, etc., because I have a live and let live view of life (Revelation 22:11). Preventing people from sinning doesn’t save them - and I think a lot of the political effort to prevent those things is rooted in the vain works of religion. Politically I’ve been voting libertarian for years …
I don’t think this world can be “cleaned up” and I’m pretty certain Jesus doesn’t think it can/should be cleaned up either - elsewise, why would this earth “pass away” or be burned up on the day of the Lord, and there would be a “new heaven and new earth” created to replace it?
While I don’t need other Christian’s approval either, I would like to have a few local friends who are believers, with whom I could break bread now and then. But I haven’t found any local yet, who are willing to meet without agendas, judgment, or outside the context of the institutional church. I’ve given up talking to locals about Christ (unless He REALLY lights a fire under my butt) because every local I talk to INSTANTLY switches the conversation from about JESUS to about THEIR CHURCH. They see it as synonymous - I don’t.
Oh well - nice talking with you Magledon.
Jack