And so I took a deep breath and walked right in…
Howard sat quietly in his dimly lit office, flanked by a row of angry businessmen. The smell of fresh brewed Starbucks coffee filled the air. "I hate the smell of Christians" I muttered to myself. Clearly no one was happy to see me.
As I approached the desk they began to mock me. "You don't tithe, because you suck at math" one yelled. "Quick, what's 10% of minimum wage" another shouted. I couldn't help but feel like Carman in "Witch's Invitation".
As I sat down the businessmen began to surround me, the whole time they were chanting "C-B-C – Give to me, C-B-C – Give to me". I was spooked. The chanting grew louder. "C-B-C – You owe me, C-B-C – You owe me" I didn't really understand what it all meant, but it didn't matter they were inching closer and closer.
I wasn't sure what to do next when suddenly everything went dark…I could still hear voices but wasn't able to see a thing. Something had been placed over my head. It smelled familiar, but I couldn't quite place it… wait a minute, I thought, it's a tithe bucket. They've covered my head with a tithe bucket.
I leaped to my feet only to be tackled to the ground. They began to tie my hands with a rope, I tried to struggle free but it was a three fold cord, which not even the Power Team could break. I felt like my life was coming to an end when out of nowhere I heard a voice speak.
"Untie Him"
As I looked up something shone brightly in my eyes. It was a man… wearing a purple suit.
"Howard?" I asked unknowingly, "Is it really you"?
Saying nothing he reached down, extended his hand and picked me up. I've never felt more compassion in all my life.
"My son" he said, "Today you are…
Ok, I've got nothing else. I'm only making up a story because I don't think most of you will be excited to hear how my meeting with Howard really went. I'll tell you anyway.
Howard impressed me.
It was clear from the very beginning that he had no hidden agendas. All he wanted was to know why I was so upset. He didn't want to condemn me for this blog. He didn't want to threaten or scare me. He just wanted to help.
Do you know how refreshing that is?
There's a bit of timing to it all. I've been feeling for some time now that my attacks on CBC have served their purpose and that it is time to move on. During the meeting I was able to air my frustrations with CBC. Howard and I don't see eye to eye on every issue but it doesn't matter. He's got a good heart and he truly seems to care. I don't care what church you're in, it's hard to find a person like that.
We talked about tithe, Forward Together, CCLI, and "the affair". Through it all he was reasonable and understanding. I like that in a man.
In the end, did Howard change my opinion about CBC? Am I now a CBC'er believer?
No, but I think he was able to help me move on. I'm not saying I"ll never write another post about CBC, but I am saying that it helps to know at least one pastor cares.
There's a time to judge intention and there's a time to judge action… Howard's intentions are pure. I can only hope that the rest of the elders listen to him.
Howard Rachinski, you have made a friend out of me.
-Johnpaul
PS. I like the purple suit.
Wow. I am impressed with the how your meeting with Howard turned out. Not that I thought it would be BAD, just the openness it sounds like there was.
Kudos to you.
Kudos to Howard Rachinski.
Your restraint is admirable, John Paul … you didn’t call him Barney.
There is something very sad about all this …
After a year and a half of blogging, enduring the ongoing chastisement and gossip of CBC faithful, weathering a threatened lawsuit, someone finally deigns you worthy of a slot in their schedule to hear your beef?
Maybe I got it wrong, but, why wasn’t someone willing to meet with you a long time ago?
I’m probably projecting some of my own crap-bag on you JP – in the last 4 years since I left my former church, I’ve confronted 2 pastors, the church chairman, several elders, and members about the rotten shit they did to me and my wife. Not once was there an apology, or even the expression of empathy or compassion. It was all about protecting their church and people from accusation. Just like the gol-dang mob. They’ve treated me like a dog – like a leper.
Can I ask you honestly? Doesn’t the 18 months, lawsuit, etc., kinda let the air out of whatever happened in your meeting with Howard? I mean, clearly Howard cares, but he’s just one man. What about CBC the institution?
In my case JP, I don’t know how to let it go. It’s bigger than me. I’ve nailed it to the cross a thousand times – and the hurt and anger and disappointment has been resurrected a thousand one times …
Does talking with one man really give you closure? I haven’t met the man yet who gives a shit about what happened to me and my wife – I mean – the man who is affiliated with our former church.
Wow…talk about anti-climatic. This would be like Bush calling the troops home right now, or William Wallace saying “nevermind, we were only screwing around” before his last big battle.
Yea, so Howard’s a great guy, and he cares. Guess what. There’s other great guys up at CBC…who probably would care too.
But I have to concur with Unscrupulous here. I thought all the things we’ve blogged about and debated here were above that. The actions of the whole are not negated by the intentions of one. But I guess that’s just me.
Like Tom Cruise’s mental state….this blog has really broken down the last few months.
JP…glad you had a good meeting with Howard. Do what your heart tells you is right going forward. But it just seemed like you shared the conviction that many of us have against institutions like CBC, and now you’re backing away faster than a Joel Fahndrich post.
Feel free to clarify if I’m not reading it right.
Just so you know, JP and I quit about every three months. It actually takes a fair amount of energy to focus on one church everday… so we tend to get burned out.
Of course, then something happens that fires us up and we’re back on the blog, but currently the two of us are definitely in a lull… …bear with us…
If sincerity were a virtue, then people like Hitler would be saints…
Seriously, though, just because someone seems sincere about their good intentions doesn’t make things right. They can be sincerely wrong, as pure as their motives may seem. We’ve spent a lot of time on here spelling out the things we’ve disagreed with in terms of doctrine, philosophy, and policies of CBC, the actions of the pastors, elders, etc. None of that has changed, but now you feel good about it because you had an amiable meeting with Howard?
Let me give you a hint: Howard is the head of CCLI because he’s really good at something. That something is making people feel good about agreeing with him. He’s a savvy businessman who knows how to work people, and a large part of the company’s success rides on his shoulders. In a very devisive world of selfish copyright owners he’s managed to single-handedly get most of the CCM world together and give him permission to handle their money and take a big slice out of it to boot. Yes, the business concept is a good idea, but it took someone with real charisma and sales ability to make it happen.
So is it any surprise that you felt good coming out of that meeting? Not in the least. Unless you already know Howard and are willing to look past the slick salesman (as sincere as he is), and stay focused on the issues, you’re not likely to make any “progress” towards resolving your philosophical issues regarding what church should look like, especially when it comes to tithing. You have to remember that not only is he a pastor/elder of CBC, he is the president of a company that makes money from churches (that tithe). Why would he suddenly change his opinion because he met with you? What did you hope to accomplish?
Perhaps it was good for you to meet to clear the air or remove any bad blood between you, but I don’t see the point. And now that I see how you’ve backed off, I can’t see why I should be reading here any more.
The disturbing thing about this post hasn’t got anything to do with burnout.
RP said himself that there is a time to judge intentions and a time to judge actions. I have a hard time when I hear that someone who has been a CBC elder for 20+ years has pure intentions when he continues as part of a church leadership group that misrepresents Scripture to boost their income. Howard seems to be ok with that tithe policy as he referenced 10% tithing in his last blog post….and hasn’t posted since. As FICM already pointed out, I have no doubt that RP was sold on a salespitch by an experienced salesman, nothing more.
I have always found that actions speak louder than kind words and “pure intentions”. If I believed every religious salesperson that had “pure intentions” and a good sales pitch, I’d probably be a Mormon.
Wow, tough room JP.
So he had a good meeting with Howard, and might have cleared the air between himself and at least Howard. Big deal?!?! He said it didn’t change the way he feels about CBC, so why would you get so up in arms about it? You guys might want to take some deep breaths and count to 10%.
Um, I have no criticism of JP – I’m just asking questions.
I’m not a CBC alum, but have been treated like crap by another church … so I’m sort of living vicariously through JP, and I guess I have some assinine hope that maybe JP could get some satisfaction out of those who wronged him, and in doing so, I might feel a smidge better about my own crap-bag of church experiences.
JP, I admire the hell out of you and Catalyst for trying.
JP,
I guess these responses just prove that people will always rally to join an angry mob and support your cause, but if you decide to put your tar and feathers down, they’ll just use them on you instead.
There’s no “tar and feathers” here. Not from me anyways. I just don’t understand and was asking for clarification.
JP and Catalyst took the lead in this whole blog thing and in calling accountability on CBC and churches like it, and now, with just a quick meeting with a nice guy, it APPEARS that he (JP) is backing off considerably.
Maybe, as Catalyst says, it’s just cause there’s a lull right now. Or maybe it’s because some of the opinions he aired to Howard were met with reasonable/logical/biblical (not necessarily in that order) counter-opinions. If so, great…I’d like to hear ‘em.
Satisfied…you make me laugh. Your comment is reminiscent of jr. high. “see, you’re friends never really liked you in the first place.” Funny…in a lame way. You calling us members of an angry mob is like us calling you alumni of higher education. Neither is true, unless you went somewhere other than PBC.
It just feels like we’re a big AA group and we just watched our leader walk across the street for a beer! (which is highly likely…but go with the analogy!)
Johnpaul
I heard that you are going to start sending your son to City Bible School, is this true? And isn’t it about time that you say that you over reacted and that City Bible is a great church/school, Just maybe not right for you at this time?
Some time ago, I wrote about my former web site “Songs for the Boeing Slave”, which I wrote and posted during my final year at Boeing … the songs were fueled by 20 years of corporate frustration and abuse … I couldn’t explain all the reasons for writing the songs, or for posting the web site – it was just therapeutic I guess … and there was quite a following of other Boeing employees.
With Boeing in the past, and my angst exhausted, the songs dried up and I took down web site.
Taking down the site, ceasing my song writing, etc., doesn’t mean I feel any different about my employment there, it’s just that the season changed for me, and it was time to leave the past behind and move forward.
It really is a lot to ask of JP and Catalyst (et al), for them to keep fueling whatever emotion it is that drives their CBC bashing ways, for the entertainment / blood-thirst of the rest of us.
Perhaps the blog can evolve to a haven for all refugees of abusive church situations.
…
There is another thought – let’s not treat JP and Catalyst like the institutional church has treated many of us – as functionaries – I was always the guitar player, or the webmaster – but seemingly never a person, just someone who accomplished a task … JP and Catalyst are more than the ‘blog guys’, they’re our brothers, and if we do as we preach, we have to committ them to the hand of God, and let them go and grow as God leads them. And that, to me, includes sending them off with our bessings if they find it’s time to move on from this blog …
I’m glad that your meeting with Howard went well. I have no doubt that if I met with some of my former leaders that the meetings would go well too. In fact, I know if I met with the Senior Pastor (male), my meeting would go well.
It’s the wheat among the tares that makes church abuse so confusing. Amongst the bad, there is so much genuine good. I’m glad to know Howard is one of the good guys.
And props to JP and Catalyst for everything they’ve provided, regardless of what decisions they make for their future.
Honestly, folks this has nothing to do with me giving up. I still believe City Bible is an immoral church. I just have been feeling a little burnt out lately, and rather than quit, I’m taking a break.
As for JP sending his son to City Christian. I find this hard to believe, but if it’s true. I’m KICKING HIM OFF THE BLOG and replacing him with Jesse (FED UP)!
I’m all for taking breaks.
I find it seriously disappointing that in the past year this blog has been up that Frank does not address these concerns. I guess there is enough people up on the hill that he does not need to be concerned about those who aren’t there anymore. Too bad, though, because he lost some really cool people along the way…unfortunately, some of those people did not tithe 10%, or chose to tithe anonymously instead of use the CBC-assigned account number. Others, like myself, never quite fit into the Abercrombie & Fitch club. So, we left, and we have issues, but is anyone on the hill REALLY listening? Maybe if they were we wouldn’t be losing so much steam around here. -K
FED UP?
Please.
KK – Actually listen to Frank’s latest sermon “Marathon Vision”. I’m only halfway through the message (damn job) but he talks about the vision of the church, and he mentions feeding the poor. He also talks about why Forward Together is no longer mentioned.
So I don’t know. I think they are listening, but they’re not gonna change, because the sympton is much larger than City Bible. CBC is just following the current trend in churches, which is a “health and wealth” message aimed at the middle to upper class.
Wow. This is the first time I have ever visited this site…and I must say, I have a lot of background with CBC – and I agree that it has some problems (considering it is a church of humans and humans are imperfect), but how can you all be so cynical and unforgiving when the Word of God so clearly addresses forgiveness (70 times 7) and Jesus Christ, the epicenter of our Faith is all about RECONCILIATION!!! Maybe you should all stop reading blogs and try reading your Bible. Try Matthew 7:1-5
[Comment ID #35460 Will Be Quoted Here]
Oh stop it with all your guilt mongering. “Stop reading blogs and start reading your bible”…what a joke! That may work on some 16 year old kid at CCHS but not on adults who have moved way beyond the doctrine of stupidity that comes from CBC.
For the record: those that I know on here have forgiven all CBCers for the way they treated us many years ago. It’s not about forgivness at this stage ma’m, it’s about correcting a wrong. Just because you forgive someone for their wrong-doing doesn’t mean you have to ignore their continued practice of it. Instead of quoting scripture as a sword, why don’t you live it out as a shield. You will get a much better response.
I’ll forgive them, when they apologize and ask for my forgiveness.
I am amazed to sit here and read all this. That you would verbally attack a person for their comments. We have been in a church for years and have walked through many things. Did you know that adversity helps us grow to be who God would have us to be. That’s right! Read your Bibles. By the way, the word Bible should be capatalized, or don’t you capatilize God either? The minute you walked into CBC it became an imperfect church because people are not perfect whether Christian or not. But attacking God’s people is not the answer, try praying for them. Did God tell you to leave your church or you just got upset and left? I don’t think God is leading you in any of this. I guess you can attack me too, I will pray for you that God can get through your self focus (notice how many times you said I) and open your eyes to what walking in God’s light really means. Whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, think on these things.
City Bible preys on the poor in order to get their money. They deserve all the criticism they get.
Dawnna, please. I am not attacking you but rather this is a discussion where people can disagree. I don’t always agree with everything that is said here.
As for attacking God’s people — could you define what you mean by God’s people? Are God’s people a title reserved for pastors, leaders and special people that earned a title and above other believers or does God’s people include everyone from a new believer, everyone here, you and me? My definition of God’s people is everyone that accepted the gospel including you and me. So, it seems you are also attacking God’s people.
Your comments sound very arrogant and I sense the holier-than-thou mindset. Have you personally met any of us? How do you know whether we read our Bibles or whether we are being led by God? Nothing you said is new but the cliched standard responses that most Christians repeat.
As for critizing people here for not being led by God, how about a church where false doctrine is preached with no accountability, manipulation, greed, unChristian treatement towards the ‘weaker’ members, for example, I witnessed 3 pastors treat a woman that was a victim of a bad marriage in a very rude, condescending and ungodly way. They were blaming the victim. Their attitudes would even shock a non-believer. This is for real. Are they led by God? Just because they are pastors or ‘men of God’ that does not mean they are free from accountability or can abuse their positions.
Ha, ha, ha. Sorry, it just makes me laugh that you guys think ‘accountability’ is a bunch of angry people hiding behind their computers and bad-mouthing an institution…..ha, ha, ha!!!
I’m pretty sure this isn’t the way to get anything changed…
I will pray for you that God can get through your self focus and open your eyes to what walking in God’s light really means.
Oh brother! You sound so ridiculous its comical. Now I think you are the one who needs to open their bible (and don’t be immature by criticizing someone for the way they type…that’s just dumb)
Practice what you preach then. Obviously this blog is impure and unlovely to you…so why are you thinking on it?
Exactly! So stop trying to change us with your hurtful speech. Again, practice what you preach.
Hey Kat…you may have spoken a bit to soon. This blog has had a HUGE effect on how things are being run @ CBC. Ask any of the elders who have left and they will tell you. CBC watches this site real close…
And yes, i will pat myself on my back for our great work.
Kat,
The fact that it is on a website is a sad reality. The reason why most people write on this website is because in church we are not “allowed” to question or even ask a simple question?
For instance, as a new believer I was participating in an “internship” where we were discussing the Bible. I raised my hand to ask, “What does the Bible say about women in leadership?” Another couple of people wanted to know the answer too. The pastor’s mood suddenly changed and he started ranting about women should be respectful towards male authority and submission and it is wrong to have wrong attitudes in the heart. He totally didnt even answer the question but made me look like a ‘bad’ girl for simply asking a genuine question. He should act like a mature adult and give us a straightforward answer and show us scriptures. (Isnt that the point of youth ministry, in the first place?)
If that isnt enough for you, Kat, how about this —- a pastor making borderline prejudiced, sexist comments, and absurd ideas in a counseling session. When the counseled person is wondering, the pastor manipulates and acts like a very unprofessional manner that would shock a non-believer. So the person first confronts the pastor that talks & acts in an offensive, unChristian manner. The pastor is very arrogant, wont admit his mistake and tries to manipulate more. The person gets frustrated & leaves and tries to discuss this with another leader. But that other leader denies, ignores or makes excuses.
Then what else can be done?
If the chuch leadership is not manipulative, controlling but actually open to people, including the weaker, young or new believers, and actually focused on God’s purposes rather than self-centered purposes then there would be no need for a website like this.
Are those actions reflective of being led by the Spirit? If a person is truly led by the Spirit there would be no need for manipulation, taking advantage of people, pushing people out of the way to acheive the so-called “calling”
oops….i didnt realize a lot of typos. I was quickly typing
I’m sorry that you thought my comments were hurtful….my intention was to ‘admonish in love’ – I guess the ‘love’ part just didn’t come across in my typing, which is why I think this whole thing is obnoxious. I really didn’t mean to attack anyone, I just couldn’t believe that people who call themselves Christians could spend so much time attacking an institution – I just think there are better things all of you intelligent people could be doing with your time…and I include myself in that, as this is my last post.
Every church has issues….bottom line. I think Muslims, Mormons and Catholics teach false doctrine, but you are not going to find me creating a website and attacking them through blogs and comments. Why? Because only God can fix problems that big….
I am sorry for what you have all went through at the hands of CBC – I have read many of the stories on here, and I sympathize with you all. However, so much of the blogging and comments on here are so full of bitterness, it is hard to feel sorry for some of you – I feel more sorry for the churches you attend now, because I can’t imagine you are able to minister to your full potential in the state you are currently in.
Nina – I can tell by what you have to say that you have truly moved on, despite your issues and I appreciate your civil, thoughtful and informative replies to my comments. I would love to say that I hope you will never be hurt by the church again – CBC or otherwise – but, I know that is an impossibility in this life.
As for this blog having any effect on CBC – even if your attacks have changed anything, I guarantee that they still have problems, and that will never change, as long as humans are imperfect and you can blame God (not CBC) for that one, because He lives in us and through us and we are His church, despite all of our shortcomings.
Be thankful that He imparts Grace to even the greatest sinners at CBC, because chances are, in each of our lifetimes, we have been such as them…
Are you saying that God is to blame for people being imperfect? Or are you saying that we can blame God for all the bad things that happen in churches? I don’t agree with either one. Saying that God is to blame regardless of what happens in churches is silly. The first few chapters of Revelations make it clear that Jesus holds churches accountable for their behavior! Paul instructed the Corinthians that they should throw out the unrepentant sinner from their church. If we say that real problems in churches are God’s problem and not ours, that is a total cop out.
With that attitude, I’m really glad I don’t go to your church. It must be a really messed up place.
I don’t get TBN on my current cable plan, so i only get one power hour of Kenneth Copeland/Joyce Meyer everyday. That leaves 23 hours to fill with other activities, like this blog. And books by Pastor Wendell and Pastor Frank.
Kat,
Why do you feel it is ok to come to this blog and attack us with words such as “obnoxious” and “full of bitternes” and even go so far as to say “I feel more sorry for the churches you attend now” but do not think we should be allowed to call out CBC for their problems?
Do you see the hypocricy here?
Its just another example of why I think Christians are the worst kind of people.
Kat, I think you just spoke too soon. I appear healed, civil and as though I have a good perspective – that took years. I used to be downright hurt. I dont always agree with everything that goes on but discuss thoughts here.
Over the years, I have ran into three atheists who used to be ex-CBC members. They were really hurt and now want nothing to do with God. It makes me wonder how many people are out there? Do you see the danger in this? They had good intentions when they first came to CBC.
Praying is good but that doesnt mean you cant say anything and keep silent. God allows this to happen. For instance, take Acts, where some church members said that a group of widows were being overlooked. If they didn’t say anything but simply prayed, what do you suppose would happen? The response from leadership was to select deacons and well you know the rest. According to you definition, “we should just pray and leave it to God”, the Acts church members were not supposed to say anything about the widows being overlooked.
As for myself, after the horrible experience at CBC I refused to attend church for a long time. I was confused and bitter for sometimes. I started attending another church but naturally reluctant. I discovered that there is more to God than CBC. In fact, other pentecostals/charismatics that I’ve conversed with have never heard of some of the things that CBC preaches.
It’s a slow process to healing. Sometimes you just have to let a person be mad for a short time but as long as the anger is directed for the sake of bringing people to Christ and for the right reasons, its justifiable. However it is not right to sin in anger.
BOTTOMLINE — As long as the criticism, comments are aligned with the right intention, it should be allowed and even okay.