I listen so you don’t have to. (Your monthly City Bible fix)
Posted on May 10th, 2006 by catalyst into the City Boobie Church categoryI just finished listening to Frank Damazio's recent sermon titled Marathon Vision. The sermon is a pretty good look into the mindset of City Bible and their eldership. If you're unfamiliar with City Bible, listen to it and you will understand our blog a lot more.
FD didn't really say anything new. City Bible's goal is to build nine churches in Portland so that no person in the Portland Metro area will be more than 15 minutes away from a City Bible Campus. (I think they include Salem in the Portland Metro Area).
After listening to Frank's vision, I came away with the impression that FD is a fairly self-centered human being. His vision is really all about him.
I also got the impression that he has been taking a lot of heat for simulcasting the services. I don't think people really like watching a sermon on a big screen. Frank mentioned this, and then told people that he wasn't changing and that they needed to change. He then proceeded to tell the congregation that watching a sermon on a TV screen wasn't really that bad.
I suppose he's right, it probably isn't that bad. Of course, it isn't that good either, as it is a fairly impersonal way to hear a sermon. I guess we'll see if people actually revolt on the simulcast or continue to listen to a sermon that way.
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May 10th, 2006 at 2:38 pm
Did he say why? Aren’t the other churches fit to serve their communities?
Perhaps this is step one to global domination, bwaaa-hahahaha!
May 10th, 2006 at 4:10 pm
And then he asked the congregation to tithe “One Billion Dollars”…
bwaaa-hahahaha! bwaaa-hahahaha! bwaa-haha! bwaaa-ha!
ha!
May 10th, 2006 at 4:42 pm
The first couple of words I heard in this message was “corporate vision.” I turned it off shortly thereafter. Karli
May 10th, 2006 at 4:56 pm
Okay, I listened a little further. I have an issue with how he says,”You can either sit back and judge what we do, or you can get involved and help us fulfill the vision.” ‘Judge’ is a harsh word, but questioning the process is not necessarily judging–it is raising questions–which hopefully helps the process to become a better process. It’s either you are on board or not. That isn’t my idea of community.
In my opinion, Damazio sounds an awful lot like Bush–”I’m the decider.”
Karli
May 10th, 2006 at 4:57 pm
Each?!?
May 10th, 2006 at 5:21 pm
I like how when he’s talking about the little chapels that do potlucks, and he says, “That’s not me” about 3 times in a row, then he changes to “That’s not us.” Yep, you’re right catalyst–I’m getting the same impression as you.
Karli
May 10th, 2006 at 6:18 pm
You’re right. The simulcast is impersonal. But so is Frank.
I wonder if he keeps anti-bacterial gel in his pocket to wash away the germs from all those sinners who actually want to shake his hand.
May 10th, 2006 at 6:53 pm
Does it bother anyone when a preacher / pastor instructs people to “turn to the person next to you and say “I’m a finisher”", or whatever it was? Are we so incapable of thinking for ourselves and expressing what we think, that someone has to tell us what to say and to whom?
The first couple of minutes (which is all I listened to), kinda reminded me of an infomercial.
Everybody say “Amen”
…
Whatever happened to “I want to know Christ, and Him crucified” and “I want to share in the sufferings of Christ”?
May 10th, 2006 at 8:32 pm
That doesn’t let you drive a nice car. The church has to make money to pay the pastors so they can live well.
And to make money, the CEO has to give a “
pep talk” vision every once in a while to stir up the emotions of theshareholderssuckerser… people in the pews.So there you have it.
This latest
pep rallyvision should last for at least a year or so…May 11th, 2006 at 7:35 am
So let’s all sit home and watch Jesse and Joel on K-relig from our recliners. With the price of gas and busy lifestyles we all have, why get the car out of the garage on a Sunday morning?
May 11th, 2006 at 7:50 am
Fine, put the sermon on TV, just let me hold the remote.
May 11th, 2006 at 8:09 am
In Christian circles, “thinking for yourself” is also known as “bitterness”. Take this blog for instance…nothing but bitterness.
Now turn to your computer and say “I’m a bitter person”.
May 11th, 2006 at 8:24 am
You guys are tho pithy.
May 11th, 2006 at 12:03 pm
“He then proceeded to tell the congregation that watching a sermon on a TV screen wasn’t really that bad.”
Buying a video of a Phish concert isn’t bad either, but it doesn’t compare to being there in person either. That is why people spend 500.00 for a Rolling Stones ticket instead of buying a 35.00 dollar video.
May 11th, 2006 at 2:50 pm
So they should charge for the live preaching?
May 11th, 2006 at 2:51 pm
I think they do this already, no?
Seasons Tickets to the shows are 10% of your income. Net or Gross is up to you.
May 11th, 2006 at 3:08 pm
Yeah, it sucks for those who make a lot of money.
All the tickets are general admission. It’s just not fair.
May 11th, 2006 at 3:12 pm
Well, you can get better seats… but you have to marry the daughter or son of one of the performers.
May 12th, 2006 at 6:34 am
Good grief - what a load of crap that was. Listening to it really tested my endurance - my ‘discern-o-meter’ was going off like an air-raid siren.
There were SO MANY things that upset my Spirit …
Continual references to OUR vision and OUR church. Talk about self-centered - I thought it was JESUS church!
The use of Hebrews 12:1-2 to underscore the CBC vision - which is an entirely out of context use of the scripture. The race is run *personally* and *individually*, and the writer of Hebrews, in speaking to the individual Hebrew peoples is effectively saying “let us lay aside ever weight” (through off any/everything that hinders you) so you can run the race, and there’s Frank loading people down with burdens - give give give, work work work, expand expand expand - oh - and by the way - if you don’t agree with me, YOU NEED TO CHANGE. Talk about phariseeism / teacher of the law searching the world over for converts and making sons of hell out of them.
Hebrews 12:2 is the message of the cross, and how Jesus endured the shame of it all … Hebrews 12 sets the stage for Hebrews 13:13-14 which exhorts us / ALL OF US, to join Christ “OUTSIDE THE CAMP” (of conformity / religion, et al), where Christ is, and where WE TOO endure His shame (the scorn of religious people, etc.).
In one place, Frank referred to CBC / the building as the “HOUSE OF GOD” - that is a BOLD FACE LIE AND ERROR! Apprently Frank has NOT read Acts 7:48, Acts 17:24, Matthew 23:38, 1 Corinthians 3:16 and 1 Corinthians 6:19.
Loved the “Vision = Resources” twist, which springboarded into the comment that the “tithe (was) not enough money” … doesn’t take a genius to put to gether “vision = resources = money” … and loved some of the financial numbers being tossed out - that there was a $3,000,000 debt that they wanted to retire, classrooms to renovate (?), and then $600,000 spent on feeding people, etc. Let’s see - I don’t remember a number for renovating the classrooms, but, feeding the poor, etc., clearly accounts for far less than 1/6th (16%) of giving? Man, if World Vision, or Feed the Children fund had such a poor use rate on donations, they’d dry up and blow away like an old cow pie.
Then there was the ‘how many of you come here BECAUSE OF THIS CAMPUS‘? I wanted to vomit - I found myself asking rhetorically “Doesn’t anybody come here for Jesus”?
And I was really put off by Frank citing the various church stats near the end of the speech - he cited size stats, number of services, number of campuses, simulcasting, etc., each time seeming to revel in the fact that CBC was in the upper echelon of the stats he was referring to. Anybody remember the OT story of David, who counted the people which angered God - either because it was self-exalting of David or because it boastful of the strength of man? See 1 Chronicles 21 …
…
I guess the laughter and amens heard in the background just go to show, that there are always sheep willing to follow a false shepherd.
What I heard there made me want to barf.
8O
May 14th, 2006 at 4:22 am
I have family members who have been pulled into this church. Does anyone know how CBC entices and tracks the required tithe of church members?
May 14th, 2006 at 6:11 am
[…] A reader called Grace and Peace asks a question about City Bible. I have family members who have been pulled into this church. Does anyone know how CBC entices and tracks the required tithe of church members? […]
May 14th, 2006 at 8:08 am
Well grace and peace, back in the day (when I was there) we were all assigned a tithe # (I clearly remember ours because it was only 2 digits but I won’t reveal them here). We were under the impression (silly lemmings that we were) that it was to track our giving for when we needed to file our taxes. I have heard stories (even recently) of the leadership offering positions to big tithers not based on their character (even though they were people of fine character) but based on their wealth. The only way they would have an idea of their income is by tracking their tithing because these are not bragging types of folks.
This is one of the things we adore about our current church leadership, they have no idea what people tithe because they are too busy actually pastoring us (gasp!) to be concerned with our incomes (they have actual trained “money people” who do the books). It’s a beautiful thing.
May 14th, 2006 at 9:02 am
Jonah don’t kid yourself, they know how much you tithe unless you pay in cash and don’t identify yourself. Every church knows who is giving how much. You’re just lucky that they don’t use giving as a barometer for godliness.
May 14th, 2006 at 12:00 pm
Thanks for your response, Jonah. That explains a lot. Since everything we have comes from the Lord, this Old Testament 10% doesn’t really cut it does it? The giving is not suppose to be how much we can get by with, but a way to return , with joy, some of what He has given us. It is even better if our “left hand doesn’t know what our right hand is doing.
May 14th, 2006 at 12:25 pm
Locutus,
Guess what? You’re wrong. The only leaders who know how much we tithe are the ones over the finances. The counseling pastors and youth pastors and senior pastor make it a point to NOT know what people tithe. This is part of why we have a TEAM of pastors so that you don’t get the one guy who’s “vision” everyone must adopt and who see’s people through “I love what you do for ME” eyes. I understand your cynicism and I too would doubt if I didn’t know these people personally (see they actually think they are a bunch of sinners in need of a Savior just like the smelly ones in the pews).
May 23rd, 2006 at 5:31 pm
I tend to disagree Jonah, I have been in meetings and heard PF say,” Don’t think we don’t know how much you give, because we do” Or “Don’t think how much you give doesn’t matter because it does.” All in reference
to giving and being supportive of church and being generous. And being in Leadership. It was at one of those shepherding the flock meetings.
I one time heard another pastor at that church say in reference to giving
and tithing, ” Just look in the parking lot, and you’ll see that the ones who
drive the nicest cars are those who tithe and give the most money.” Talk
about pressure to drive a nice car, all of a sudden my old car that was completely paid for made me look like a cheap giver and non- tither.
May 24th, 2006 at 6:20 am
7777, if you read all of the comments, you’ll see that Jonah’s last comment was NOT about CBC, but about his/her current church.
I don’t think many here would challenge what you saw and heard, because it echos what many of us saw and heard at CBC.
June 14th, 2006 at 2:14 pm
Wow! Sounds like the Starbucks of churches! Maybe I’ll start going if they build a drive-thru.
June 14th, 2006 at 6:24 pm
I like the idea of staying home and watching my fav televangelist. Creflo is one of my favorites. I try to stay ethnicly relavent.
Who needs drive thru? ?-)
June 15th, 2006 at 3:04 am
You know, this might be a good thing. I do not feel compelled whatsoever to give to anyone that I watch on TV. I might like going to CBC once they have 9 campuses. I might only feel compelled to give every 2 1/4 months. Doesn’t sound too bad.
I still need to get the CD to listen and evaluate what he said.
June 15th, 2006 at 10:03 am
I was really getting a good laugh out of the blogs/comments on this board yesterday… I was having a crappy day and needed something to laugh about, thanks. But I’m starting to feel sorry for you all. This is starting to look like a cult recovery support group. How many of you are in counseling for this?
June 15th, 2006 at 11:58 am
This is counseling.
June 15th, 2006 at 1:25 pm
I’ve just been healed. I don’t need counseling 0:-)
June 15th, 2006 at 1:34 pm
I guess you have to talk to someone who has been there. A professional counselor might think your story was some kind of fabrication or dillusion.
June 15th, 2006 at 6:47 pm
Ok, so I finally listened to the sermon. Yeah, there were some things that surprised me. FD definitely has a vision for where he wants to take CBC. Not being there, I am not sure I can really judge the spirit of what is going on. However, there were a few very interesting concepts presented:
1. The idea that a church could be planted in a “weekend”, with complete auxillary services such as daycare, youth, etc. (usually this takes years of struggles)
2. The idea of pooling resources. (600K used for poor is significant)
3. The idea that there are enough lost to go around for all the churches. (I have often operated in a jealousy model)
4. 9 campuses with 30,000 people isn’t that big of a vision any more. (Think Joel Osteen)
5. Were the letters Paul passed around the equivalent of today’s simulcast. (Sitting in a stadium watching on a big screen doesn’t seem that much different. I enjoyed Promise Keepers this way.)
I am not agreeing with everything said, I just found these ideas intriguing.
Yeah, FD is a little pushy. I can cut him some slack because he is not pushing me. I also found it interesting that he was almost apologetic to ask for more than the tithe. I have yet to attend a church where a tithe + offering was not expected. But, guys with vision, whether in the church or not, seem to come off as pushy.
Ok, now let my shredding begin ;-(