Imagine __________(insert John Lennon pun)
Posted on May 16th, 2006 by Reformed Pope into the Comments From Others categoryHere's what Anna had to say about last weeks sermon at CBC:
I went to CBC yesterday, first time in months (not counting the conference). Yes, they still use the KFC-style buckets.
Like John444, I found it totally surreal - and that was my church for years and years. The worship was good quality, but worship is a personal thing and God will always meet you wherever / whenever you worship Him.
However, the sermon was the biggest boatload of New Age drivel I've heard in a looooooong time. For a church with a "Bible College," you'd think the congregation would be more scripturally discerning.
PF is starting a new series on "Imagine" (yes, with a cute little graphic of clouds and sunshine). He started off with the story of Solomon when God said He would give Solomon whatever he asked for. And then it launched from there into you can have whatever you can imagine. Your vision is too small… ask big. Be like Bill Gates, be like Walt Disney… you, too can have your dream, and even get God to give it to you.
Never mind what it cost God to give us His favor. Never mind what it costs us to walk in it. This was just more of the "Peace and Safety" lullabye that has put everybody to sleep, fat and happy with their tummies full of warm milk.
It's not like I can go to PF and say, "What are you doing????" I went to the people I had a relationship with, and got nowhere. It was Frank's way or the highway, as said before, only they said it so nicely.
So I asked one of my friends, "How can you sit through this? Doesn't it make you want to scream?" The answer…. "Well, no church is perfect. We just keep praying. We are with Celebrate Recovery, and we help people."
And what they don't say is that most people derive their spiritual self-esteem from the church; it's where they get their accolades. Because of the all-inclusive nature of the beast, it's where all they spend all their $$$, their time, and where their friends are, etc. To leave is a huge personal upheaval. So it's easier to stay.
Ok. Off the soapbox. I wish it were funny. I wish I make a silly comment about the whole thing. But there's nothing funny about a car-wreck.
.
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May 16th, 2006 at 4:13 pm
Sounds to me like PF needs to read the verse of the day.
May 16th, 2006 at 7:18 pm
Here’s some good verses of the day–my favorite tithing verses.
If more pastors preached on taking your tithe and buying whatever your heart desires (KJV says whatever your heart lusteth after . . .) and celebrating before God, we might achieve that 100% tither goal! I used to share this with my former MFI pastor. He didn’t laugh.
You (K)shall surely tithe all the produce from what you sow, which comes out of the field every year.
23″You shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God, (L)at the place where He chooses to establish His name, the tithe of your grain, your new wine, your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and your flock, so that you may (M)learn to fear the LORD your God always.
24″If the distance is so great for you that you are not able to bring the tithe, since the place where the LORD your God chooses (N)to set His name is too far away from you when the LORD your God blesses you,
25then you shall exchange it for money, and bind the money in your hand and go to the place which the LORD your God chooses.
26″You may spend the money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your heart desires; and (O)there you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.
May 17th, 2006 at 6:43 am
There’s that introspection I love so much again
… I’m certain most Christians would argue with that statement Anna, and would claim that they go to church to worship God. Yet the Bible clearly teaches that God does not dwell in buildings, but since Pentecost has taken up His home in us. Hence Jesus words to the woman at the well which imply that where we worship is no longer important, but that we worship in spirit and in truth.
What is the truth that we’re supposed to worship in? The truth that introspection reveals about our sorry state? The kind of personal truth that makes us humble before God? Or the truth that Christ is all and the only reason we are saved - in fact the only reason we exist at all - is because of Christ? The truth of the tax collector who admitted he was a wretched man, or of Paul who lamented the sinful nature of his flesh?
Since leaving the institutional church and following Christ, where like your statement implies Anna, I’ve found myself alone - abandoned / shunned by church-going religious people, I’ve had to find my worth elsewhere, because the accolades that used to come from doing churchy works aren’t there anymore. Leaving that is very diffucult - for so many reasons.
Friends - but are they really? Ever socialized with people you go to church with? Ever have one help out when you’re sick or have other needs? Any of them ever contact you when you’re gone for awhile or after you leave?
Fellowship - is a “good morning” or “hi, how are you” on the way to/from the parking lot really fellowship? Or turning to one another during the sermon and repeating the pastor’s words - is that fellowship? Or the phone that rings and it’s a church member - not calling to talk, but to sign you up for ushering, serving at a potluck, choir / music, etc. Does anyone ever just hang out with you and enjoy your company?
When I run into someone from my former church, it is always “oh, we miss you” - but that’s always in context of their religious gatherings. There’s 167 hours a week after the worship service is over … and there’s never any asking why we left - but rather a presumption that we have gone off the deep end or are back-slidden. So, who wants to be friends with someone who presumes to know my reasons for leaving, or who doesn’t care enough to ask.
The church I used to attend in the Seattle area 8 years ago, called in a church consultant who surveyed the church membership (about 1000) and asked simple questions like “when was the last time you were invited to another members home to share a meal”? The compiled results suggested that fellowship was sorely lacking in that church - in fact, it was a snobbish and aloof church - clicquish … after years of membership and heavy involvement in the music ministry of the church and Sunday school, our leaving was inconsequential - the posts we vacted were filled immediately. Friends and fellowship - accolades and sense of worth? Not to be found there. In fact, the only accolades we felt were our own - the ‘buzz’ we got from doing works.
Obviously, the ‘well’ of feel-good accolades based on churchy-works had completely dried up for us - and I think that is with purpose. Because it forces us to look for the living water that only Christ can provide. And in my experience, it’s only after a person has found and been satisfied with the “living water”, that they can be re-integrated in Church fellowship - though not necessarily in the context of an institutional church. Sometimes just a handful of friends the Lord provides, with whom you can break bread on occasion, as life / the Lord leads you to gather. The Lord has provided very few such friends here in Cornville.
After years of being out of the IC, and going back on rare occasion for a scripted religious service, it is often painful … the songs being sung aren’t really worship songs - they’re one off from being a worship song or are not really about Jesus as much as they are about the people. Take for example one of the favorites - Amazing Grace - the words are “I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see” … who’s that really about? Us. In fact, it seems like most worship songs are “I” based - we sing songs about worshipping - but when do we actually worship?
“I will celebrate”, “I will clap my hands”, “I will sing a new song”, “Shout to the Lord”, “I will dance” … etc. When do we ever really celebrate, clap our hands, sing a new song, shout, dance., etc.? We sing about doing those things, but at least in the churches I’ve gone to all my life, never do those things - well - except for clapping sometimes, when and only after the pastor says it’s OK. It’s like a fishing club that only talks about fishing but never actually fishes.
The messages are about church-works / church-attendence - in other words - they’re selfish messages of self support. I look for someone / anyone to talk about Jesus, and nada. It’s all about the church - which is people - and so when people talk about the church, they’re talking about themselves.
Through it all, Romans 12:1 has come to mean the most to me in terms of worship - the Good New Bible says it like this:
So then, my friends, because of God’s great mercy to us I appeal to you: Offer yourselves as a living sacrifice to God, dedicated to his service and pleasing to him. This is the true worship that you should offer. (Romans 12:1 GNB)
The difference being to me - a lifestyle of worship through sacrifice (pain), vs. the Sunday morning “feel good about me” hour. I guess that’s why the Sunday service is such a farce to me any more - because it is such a miniscule offering to God - giving Him 1 hour of rote execution of scripted religion, rather than 168 hours of my whole life.
I think part of the leaving thing Anna, and why people shun those who leave is, once again self-centered - the persons who leave to follow Christ and who pursue a more dynamic relationship with Him, are a reminder of Christ’s truth to those who remain behind. They’ve read what Christ says - they know He said “follow Me” and not “go to church” - they know it says “take up your cross” … those who actually do what the Living Word says, expose those who remain behind as pretenders. And a pretenders only comfort is the company they keep with other pretenders.
Lest I sound judgmental, it is just part of the growing process … a life of pretense creates - even desperation for what’s real - to escape the trap of conformity, etc. And when we outgrow the ‘flower pot’ of churchianity, the Father transplants us where we can continue to grow. Is it any wonder then that returing to our former ‘pot’ that it feels constrictive / surreal? As in: I can’t believe I was ever part of this … and yet we were - thank God for being a faithful gardener, and tending to our growth.
What is so ironic - for all the time / money spent on the IC, it never provided me with drink that satisfies - only Christ provides the living water, AND, it’s free - as in “you who have no money, come, buy, drink, eat …” (Isaiah 55:1) … Perhaps the biggest problem is, we can’t grasp “FREE”.
May 17th, 2006 at 6:53 am
Sorry - “a life of pretense creates - even desperation for what’s real” should have been “a life of pretense creates hunger - even desperation for what’s real”
May 17th, 2006 at 1:29 pm
Well said, John. From my own experience, now that I’ve tasted real fellowship and community, going to an IC is a surreal experience. I can’t believe that for most of my life it was so important to me, and now it seems worthless.
May 17th, 2006 at 4:47 pm
RP and Catalyst, nothing to say on those verses?
It’s basically saying, Take your tithe and go buy a Budweiser and toast Jesus.
No response?
KM
May 17th, 2006 at 5:02 pm
Hey KM (or anyone),
What book and chapter is that passage from?
NA
May 17th, 2006 at 7:42 pm
Dooteronomy 14.
May 17th, 2006 at 9:15 pm
Take this for what it’s worth but i did some research on that passage of scripture that KM referenced. I looked at 6 or 8 online commentaries to see what they had to say. About half of them said that the tithe mentioned in that passage was a second tithe. The first tithe (10%) was given to the priests and the second tithe (another 10%) was to be used in the way described in the passage. Of course, the other half didn’t mention anything about it being a second tithe.
Since we all know (or some of us anyway) that we are not bound by the 10%, then this doesn’t really matter much but I figured I’d point it out anyways.
May 18th, 2006 at 6:07 am
Shhhh! Don’t give FD any more bad ideas! The last thing those poor people need is a second tithe.
Of course, if they follow this scripture literally, then it means they also have to have brunch in Ivy Hall afterwards to properly celebrate the tithing. If it’s too far to pack a lunch, then they can buy it with part of their tithe money. haha
May 18th, 2006 at 6:22 am
There is a church someone wrote me about a few years ago, where the pastor has not only preached the tithe (incessantly), but also the passage on the ‘cheerful giver’. Seems some people protested the tithe by claiming to be unhappy about it or that it didn’t feel right to them.
The pastors answer?
Put on some jiggy music during the offering, and have people dance, strut, raise their hands, sing and shout praises as they brought their tithe to the altar where the chicken bucket was waiting for them …
Every time I think I’ve heard it all …
I wonder if the people showed the pastor this verse IF he’d make them bring it to the altar in overalls and a wheel-barrow to the tune of Old McDonald:
The farmer who has done the hard work should have the first share of the harvest. (2 Timothy 2:6 GNB)
May 18th, 2006 at 10:59 pm
Alright, here’s a question that somewhat pertains to this. The early church was not one that preached a 10% tithe but rather to give cheerfully. Does anyone know at what point the church started heading back to the 10% side of things? I have my ideas but I have nothing to back up my ideas. I’m gonna do some searching around but was curious if anyone on here happens to know who or what led the church away from giving cheerfully and back into the 10% mindset.
NA
May 19th, 2006 at 5:55 am
Some links for you, Not-Anon:
http://www.shouldthechurchteachtithing.com/ is the web site of Dr. Russell E. Kelly … he’s a Dr. of Theology (yeah, I know - but Russ is cool) - it’s a 364 page book debunking the tithe lie. Russ is an Elvis impersonator
…
This is from the bottom of Russ’s web page at the link above:
Point #16 Tithing Did Not Become a Law in the Church Until A. D. 777.
The false teaching is that the historical church has always taught tithing.
Even in Acts 21:20-26, decades after Calvary, the early Jewish-Christians in Jerusalem were still zealously following the Old Covenant law and were still worshiping in and supporting the Jewish Temple. As obedient Jews, logic forces us to conclude that they must have still been sending any food tithes they had to the Temple system.
While disagreeing with their own theologians, most church historians write that tithing did not become an accepted doctrine in the church for over 700 years after Calvary. The earliest church fathers before A. D. 321 (when Constantine made Christianity a legal religion) opposed tithing as a Jewish-only doctrine. Clement of Rome (c95), Justin Martyr (c150), The Didache (c150-200), Irenaeus (c150-200) and Tertullian (150-220) opposed tithing. Even Cyprian’s (200-258) (rejected) introduction of tithing included distribution to the poor.
In fact, the early church leaders practiced asceticism. This meant that being poor was the best way to serve God. They patterned their worship after that of the Jewish synagogues which had rabbis who were self-supporting and usually refused to receive money for teaching God’s Word. See Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Vol. II, 63, 128, 198-200; 428-434.
According to the very best historians and encyclopedias, it took over 500 years before the local church Council of Macon, in the year 585, tried unsuccessfully to enforce tithing on its members and it was not until the year 777 that Emperor Charlemagne legally allowed the church to collect tithes.
…………..
You can download Russ’s book for FREE (imagine that) in PDF format, from this link: http://prayershack.freeservers.com/download_russkellybook.html
The owner of the ‘prayershack’ site, is David Eubanks, who’s in the tri-cities Washington area. He has a ‘tithing resource’ page at http://prayershack.freeservers.com/tithing.html with lots of information to help you settle the tithe issue (i.e., debunk the tithe lie). David’s a hoot - we’ve talked by phone a few times - for hours - the kind of guy you feel instant brotherhood with.
………
Hope these help you find what you’re looing for.
Jack
May 19th, 2006 at 6:38 am
Thanks John…I appreciate the links. Time to do some reading.
May 19th, 2006 at 7:33 am
That link should be its own post. You guys made a post about not having much positive things come out of this blog. That link is probably one of the most positive and constructive things to happen so far, because Mr. Kelly gives the best explanation I’ve ever heard/read about tithing.
I think it strange that a “Bible College” which teaches so much about interpreting the Bible correctly, could completely miss the boat on such a vital topic. Of course, one has to remember that the founding fathers of PBC were not trained theologians, but church leaders who had a desire to express their viewpoints on doctrine.
Thanks, Jack, for sharing that. I’ve read quite a bit already and I’m sure I’ll be coming back to it again and again.
May 19th, 2006 at 7:56 am
And you could call the post:
Elvis Impersonator says “NO” to the Tithe
I’m sure Russ would love it. (See: http://home.earthlink.net/~russkellyphd/elvis/ ) …
;)
May 19th, 2006 at 8:01 am
I’m just curious…Is Pastor Jack and Unscrupulous Man the same person? Come to think of it, I’ve never seen them in the same room together…
Thanks for all the good resources on tithing info, Jack. That’s good stuff. And I’ve always thought we should give the teachings of Elvis impersontators more credence
May 19th, 2006 at 10:47 am
How can you say such a thing?!? Can’t you tell I’m scrupled?
The whole Elvis thing is amusing to me in more ways than one … when I was recording the song ‘Just One King’, I thought about using Russ to do the Elvis voice (because while I’m starting to resemble Elvis in age and girth, I don’t sing like Elvis) … though when doing concerts I like to kid around with the Elvis persona a bit, when introducing a couple of my songs.
Several years ago, I heard my former pastor give a sermon about the diffence between the king of this world which he likened to Elvis, and the king of the next world who is Jesus. To introduce his sermon, the pastor asked our praise band to do a minute or 2 of an Elvis tune. We chose “Can’t Help Falling in Love” and it was a hoot (I enjoyed doing that more than doing the 1000th repitition of Lord I Life Your Mane On High ).
The song ‘Just One King’, came together when I saw the opening scene(s) of the Blues Brothers movie (we’re on a mission from God) where they watched those wild charismatics from the door of the church, and remembered that old ‘Elvis’ sermon …
So the image of Elvis, as in the song, is hype, crass commercialism personified - and in a sense, the spirit of Elvis has invaded many churches. So to have Dr. Russ - the Elvis impersonator - dispute the tithe doctrine - it’s a hysterical visual contradiction for me.
Just One King is at this link if you’re interested: http://www.lordyouare.com/rp
UnscrupulousJackMay 22nd, 2006 at 5:53 am
Here’s a direct link to the mp3. It’s pretty good, actually. Funny, too.
http://lordyouare.com/lya/songs/rp05hi.m3u
Jack, you have a lot of honesty in your music. It’s commendable.
May 22nd, 2006 at 6:00 am
I would love to see what someone I respect like Larry Asplund or Larry Taylor has to say about this book. I read it recently, and it’s certainly interesting, but I lack the qualifications to know if it’s “true” or not. If it were about astro-physics, I’d be ok.. but church history in detail is not where I have a lot of info.
If enough of us pitch in, maybe we can hire Larry A or T to give an opinion?
heh.
May 22nd, 2006 at 6:15 am
Thanks Henri. You’re welcome to download the hi-res versions and burn a CD if you like. They’re freely downloadable. Hope to wrap up the last 2 songs by the end of June (Pharisee Like Me and Echoing the Cross). Had a mic preamp go south on me and waiting for a replacement …
You know Henri, there just aren’t enough songs about astro-physics - especially in the rap genre. Astro rap … would be so
June 5th, 2006 at 6:12 am
Isn’t it a shame that a “rule” called the tithe is in place because the people called to be generous and cheerful givers are miserly, tight, and small minded.
How many of us set aside funds for the poor, the widows, the destitute out of our regular income?
How many of us do not consider what we have as our own?
Shame on us, that the church must enforce what should already be in our hearts to liberally accomplish.
Quit whining and step up to the plate. You have nothing that hasn’t been given to you. All you have done is traded your life and time for a resource called money. Take care of your needs, pull your head out of your selfish shell and give.
June 5th, 2006 at 8:01 am
Isn’t it a shame that some churches feel they need to set themselves up as a bureaucracy between giving from believers and the needy? I’m more than happy to cheerfully give, but not to an organization leveraging an Old Testament mandate of tithing to guilt people then turning around and spending money on plasma TVs. Being a willing participant of that would violate my mandate to be a good steward with my money.
June 5th, 2006 at 9:09 am
How true. I have yet to see them. I will visit them this summer.
But, back to the point. Do they not give to the poor? Do they not feed the hungry? If they do, then an organization needs to be in place to effectively accomplish this. The Church as a whole has abandoned its role of serving the social needs of the community. What an indictment that the government must provide welfare.
The govt. has far greater waste and charges me far more for far less benefit than any church I attended ever has.
I attend a local congregation because I believe God dwells in a house not made with wood and stone, but of believers. Corporate worship is the model for what will happen in heaven. I want some of that now. In addition to the needy, I will give to maintain the building and the infrastructure that provides this service.
Sure, every church is messed up. They are all run by man purporting to know the mind of God. Sometimes they will hit the nail on the head. I’ll give them the grace to make the mistakes.
Just an arcane thought, “Maybe the hallways were built too narrowly requiring the purchase of plasma tv’s instead of CRTs.” i wouldn’t want anyone to bump their heads!
June 5th, 2006 at 9:35 am
Do you consider 4000 dollar TVs to be wasteful? You can’t accuse the government of excessive waste and ignore wasteful spending like that from churches. Many modern churches have embraced mandatory tithing as biblical, but refuse to hold themselves accountable for their spending. I have a hard time excusing that as a mistake when this many otherwise divergent churches embrace an Old testament mandate to the Israelites to ensure their congregations give at a decent clip. That is far too self-serving and greedy to be a coincidence.
Back to your first post. Your first paragraph asserted that tithing is a “rule” in place because believers don’t give enough. Do you really believe that tithing is a punitive mandate from God to force believers to give?