Evidently, this blog is where internet surfers go to ask questions about City Bible Church.
New reader DonMich asks:
Wow,
Not having been to PBC or now CBC since the late 1980s, it would seem that much has gone awry. We are looking at Bible Colleges for my daughter and are considering PBC.
Is there anyone out there who can give a balanced discussion on this school and church?
Thanks
Having run this blog for over a year, I don't think this is the place to get a balanced anything. But some of our readers are more intelligent that I, so once again I throw this out to you.
DinMich,
I am presently a member of CBC. My perspective may be a little different than the majority of those who post on this blog. It would be fair for you to know a little bit about the group that you asked for advice on the topic of PBC. The majority of the contributors represent a handful (maybe 15-20) of people who have had a negative experience with CBC/BT. Some have attended fairly recently, others attended during the time that you were there.
I cannot answer for those things that are said here that shed a negative light on CBC. I disagree with most of them, but they are someone else’s experience and perspective. What I can do is share my own…
I love our church. It has been a place of life for me. I have met friends there that have challenged me in my walk with the Lord. I respect the leadership of Pastor Frank and his team. Our church has a very clear vision of what the future holds and we are working towards it together. The exciting thing is that the vision is ultimately to reach many, many people for Christ. Pastor Frank has taken some difficult stances on issues ranging from same-sex marriage to social drinking. In all of this I’ve not seen a hard-line legalism, but rather a fear of God, love for people and a genuine desire for truth.
I would be excited to be attending PBC next year. Many of the pastors at CBC are now teaching classes at PBC. Students are learning about ministry from those who are actively involved in it. It seems like CBC and PBC leadership are working to integrate the church with the school more. Meaning that students are released for ministry within the church and are experiencing hands-on the same things that they are learning in the classroom. I have recommended that several of my friends from out of town come and attend PBC.
These are just one man’s thoughts. You will likely hear many more opinions from a group of people that, for the most part, are seeking truth and doing what they think is right. I would suggest you grab a cup of coffee and spend a half hour reading through a few month’s worth of posts on this blog. This will give you a good (however generalized) look at the life perspectives of those who will likely respond to your request. If you find you have a similar worldview, you will probably thank God that you found this blog to save you from the perils of CBC/PBC. On the other hand, with more research, you might find that you it sounds like just the kind of place you want to grow.
I pray for wisdom for you and your daughter as to whether or not this is the right place for her.
Bless you,
Jeff
‘Balanced’ – that’s a tough one … which is the better source of information about a college – the admin and staff who run the school and profit from it? I’m sure they’d tell you it’s a great school. Or the students? But can you get a balanced input of students – any independent surveys of graduates you can assess?
There have been several PBC alum here who have written that they were disappointed with a few things. Like the fact that PBC is not accredited – a fact I gather was not clear up front when they enrolled. See the post Christian Education.
I hope some of the alum will write about their experiences.
….
Note, I have 3 daughters, age 24, 22, 18. My oldest went to trade school and presently is working in an auto shop where they deal in custom paint, upholstery, etc. Hotrods and choppers – she loves it. My middle daughter is going to CC part time, while working FT for the Boys and Girls Club of America. She loves it. My youngest hasn’t decided yet, but leans toward working with animals.
Conventional wisdom says I should have sent each of them to a 4 year school, to prepare them for employment. But none of them have showed an interest in that – honestly, the 4 year school thing was our idea of what our children (now adults) should do.
Of course they don’t make as much money as they would have if they’d gone into the medical field, engineering, the legal profession, etc., however, they are all happy and doing what THEY want to do.
The thought of sending one of them off to “Bible College” is potentially frightening to me as I don’t want my daughters programmed by religious fundamentalists – rather, I just want them to have a loving relationship with the Father and grow into the well-rounded adults He has planned for them to be. Nor would I want them to hook up with a religious fundamentalist husband there, who would require them to “submit” in marriage relationship. And, I’d have to admit to an ulterior motive in sending them to a Bible College – like – confining her to a controlled environment …
It was hard to let go – but – I feel a lot better in letting them go in the direction they chose and trusting that they will be faithful to the values we have instilled in them.
I don’t know if Bible College as anything at all like a private Christian high school, but in my experience with them, as former guardian of my little sister who went to a so-called ‘Christian’ high school, all the problems common to public schools were present even moreso in private Christian schools, because the parents of incorrigible kids sent them there as a last ditch effort to straighten them out. Ultimately, my sister asked to go back to the public schools she thought were so bad.
The other thought I have, as a former aerospace professional (Boeing Aerospace Company, 1977-1999), a Bible College education has value ONLY to someone hoping to work at an institutional church or in some religious venue. A Bible College education is practically WORTHLESS in commercial industry. In fact what few Bible College graduates who came to work in the industry that employed me for 22 years, were a pain in the butt because they saw the work place as their mission field and wasted a lot of company time evangelizing and proselytizing coworkers. They either learned to keep it to themselves (in an EEO/diversified workforce) or they were escorted out.
What’s your daughter want for herself, Don?
Jack
My husband has a 4 yr degree from PBC. If he had to do it over again I’m sure he would have gone straight to a community college or university and not to an uncredited Bible college whose doctrine we now find dubious.
I went to PBC for less than a year. By the end of the first semester I had my engagement ring (to a man I happily submit to!) and wanted to go back to my job full time (which was smart because I made enough money to support us and pay for my husband to get a real education which has served our family well). As a woman I look back on some of the classes and dress codes and think “How ridiculous was that?”.
I have 3 daughters and I personally would NEVER send them to PBC. If I’m going to spend money on their education, they will end up with a legitimate (income producing) degree.
I would echo Jonah’s sentiment. PBC isn’t an accredited school. There was a time when PBC was working toward accreditation, but that has stopped. The school has since fired its more qualified, educated staff and replaced them with uneducated pastors. I think your daughter would get a better education and Multnomah School of the Bible.
Wow! That was fast!
Concerning ‘submission’ – with the help-mate God has made for you and where there is genuine love, submission is a beautiful 2-way relationship. Our marriage isn’t so much based on Ephesians 5:22-33 as it is based on Ephesians 5:21. In other words, I submit to my wife as often as she submits to me – we both give 100% – and therein lies the double-blessing for us.
But still – WoW Jonah! By the end of the 1st semester …
That must be some kind of record! 
Honestly, if your son/daughter is looking to go to “bible college”, then you need to have a big long sit-down chat and find out why.
There are previous few “reasons” I feel are appropriate for anyone to go to a full-time “college” to learn about one church’s interpretation of christianity and the bible.
1) You’re in the same cult and you
need more brainwashingwant to learn more about what you’re supposed to believe.2) You are a mature adult (not a young person who is still trying to “find yourself” and are struggling with your belief system.. and want to learn about what tihs church believes.
That’s about it. Those are the reasons.
Other then that, I firmly believe the holy spirit inside you (presuming you’re a spirit filled believer) is fully capable of teaching you, counseling you, bring you to people who can teach you, pointing you to other Godly men/women who can walk with you, etc.. and all those things can happen (and should!) during every-day life activities.
Spend time with your son/daughter in prayer and fasting.. and ask the holy spirit for guidance on what he/she should be doing with his/her life. Ask for specific guidance and direction.
Bible college is appropriate for some people and some occasions, so I’m not going to totally discount it… but I feel it’s the “exception”.
Hope that helps.
John444: your daughter who works with cars will probably end up making a lot of money regardless of a 4 year degree.
I went to PBC for 2 1/2 years. In retrospect, I do wish that I’d gone to Multnomah if I wanted to study the Bible. I knew students who went there and they were very serious about the Bible and serving the community. The classes they took sounded very interesting and balanced to me.
Me, along with many of my friends, ended up having a long road in college to receiving a Bachelor’s degree after PBC. It was like starting from scratch. I took classes over the summer to be finished faster. And, when we were attending, PBC actually did tout it’s “transfer agreement” of credits with different universities. The whole experience ended up costing quite a bit of money.
I would suggest checking out Multnomah as well. I have made several comments about PBC in the past. Check for my posts under blog stats. Too much to retype. I will say one thing, though–I’m glad you are asking for different opinions/perspectives about Bible
College, I mean, Institute–I wish I had talked to actual academic advisors before attending PBC to get a more well-rounded perspective. But, if your daughter is looking for a Bible College here in Portland, I would highly recommend Multnomah, or even some of the private universities like Univeristy of Portland or Concordia. –KarliAs a person who spent my elementary years switching between private (TCS/TCHS) and public schools, and then spent seven years in college (CC, PBC, UofWashington and WSU)….I think I have a fairly “balanced” opinion of PBC and education in general. (besides the fact that both my parents were teachers for 30 years, and my wife is a teacher!)
I concur with the others that your focus must be on what your daughter is looking to get out of her experience in Bible College. If she desires to increase her knowledge of the Bible and challenge herself in what she believes, I would NOT recommend PBC. My experience there was similar to what many people have posted about CBC’s mentality in general – it’s “their way or the highway!” That kind of thinking doesn’t lend itself well to healthy “point, counter-point” debating.
If your daughter is looking to get out of the house, make some new Christian friends, get married?, and/or spend a few years clearing her head after high school….well….then….maybe PBC would be a good fit. I know I made a ton of good friends up at PBC, and ironically met my wife through a girl I went there with, albeit years later.
But if your daughter is looking for a degree that will benefit her in the future, consider two sub-points:
1. If her focus is on trying to attain success in an MFI church, a PBC degree would probably be fine. (although not as good as just marrying in.)
2. If her focus is NOT on church work, a PBC degree has NO value. I know too many people who attended PBC for 4 long years, and now have essentially nothing to show for it. Many of them have headed back to an accredited college for 4 more years of hard work (usually as a married person, trying to finish classes during non-work hours, at the sacrifice of their spouse and kids.)
PBC aside….as I’m trying to give you my balanced take….if your daughter desires a great Christian college experience, please consider two more thoughts:
1. It is just as possible to be spiritually challenged and make some great Christian friends at a secular university, as it is at a private school. Your daughter just needs to be honest with her own spiritual strength, whether she can avoid the temptations that abound at a major university. (which I might add, do exist at places like PBC, too….just not as deeply.) But at UW there was a Christian frat, many Christian social clubs, and because the classes were not indoctrinated with the same religiousness I’d grown up with at BT, they were very challenging and thought-provoking! (this is where Henry’s advice to let the Holy Spirit help would come in very handy!)
2. If your daughter prefers to stay with a Christian college, simply use logic and consider the cost/benefit/resources that the school provides. Yes, PBC is inexpensive (at least it was back in the early 90′s), but look at their resources. I found the campus, the classes, social opportunities, sports, etc. to be a joke.
“MY” humble opinion (as a father of two and a person well versed in different types of schools)….would be to encourage your daughter to attend a local community college for two years. She could stay at home, stay imbedded in her young adults group, etc., and mature in her thinking for a couple years. Then, at that point, determine if finishing at a Bible College or 4-year University makes sense.
Either way….you are wise to ask around on PBC. If you’d like more comments on my experience there, simply post where I can reach you and I’d be happy to share what I can, both good and bad.
Good luck.
PS. Tell your daughter if she decides to attend PBC, she better start working on bladder control. Apparently Jesus frowns on those that need to pee after 10:00pm!!
REPOSTING (Sorry for taking up extra space, but by the time this was approved it ended up at the top of the list)
DinMich,
I am presently a member of CBC. My perspective may be a little different than the majority of those who post on this blog. It would be fair for you to know a little bit about the group that you asked for advice on the topic of PBC. The majority of the contributors represent a handful (maybe 15-20) of people who have had a negative experience with CBC/BT. Some have attended fairly recently, others attended during the time that you were there.
I cannot answer for those things that are said here that shed a negative light on CBC. I disagree with most of them, but they are someone else’s experience and perspective. What I can do is share my own…
I love our church. It has been a place of life for me. I have met friends there that have challenged me in my walk with the Lord. I respect the leadership of Pastor Frank and his team. Our church has a very clear vision of what the future holds and we are working towards it together. The exciting thing is that the vision is ultimately to reach many, many people for Christ. Pastor Frank has taken some difficult stances on issues ranging from same-sex marriage to social drinking. In all of this I’ve not seen a hard-line legalism, but rather a fear of God, love for people and a genuine desire for truth.
I would be excited to be attending PBC next year. Many of the pastors at CBC are now teaching classes at PBC. Students are learning about ministry from those who are actively involved in it. It seems like CBC and PBC leadership are working to integrate the church with the school more. Meaning that students are released for ministry within the church and are experiencing hands-on the same things that they are learning in the classroom. I have recommended that several of my friends from out of town come and attend PBC.
These are just one man’s thoughts. You will likely hear many more opinions from a group of people that, for the most part, are seeking truth and doing what they think is right. I would suggest you grab a cup of coffee and spend a half hour reading through a few month’s worth of posts on this blog. This will give you a good (however generalized) look at the life perspectives of those who will likely respond to your request. If you find you have a similar worldview, you will probably thank God that you found this blog to save you from the perils of CBC/PBC. On the other hand, with more research, you might find that you it sounds like just the kind of place you want to grow.
I pray for wisdom for you and your daughter as to whether or not this is the right place for her.
Bless you,
Jeff
No worries, Jeff.
I think the comments on PBC have been excellent and, to be honest, quite balanced.
So thanks everyone for sharing.
DonMich,
This comment, already posted by Grey Sheep, is my foremost opinion regarding the suitability of PBC as a place for your daughter:
If her focus is on trying to attain success in an MFI church, a PBC degree would probably be fine.
PBC prepares people for ONE setting: an MFI church. Not other churches, not other ministry (i.e., the mission field), certainly not a professinoal career.
Honestly, I went to PBC for two years after obtaining a Bachelor’s Degree. I now have a Master’s and have spent my career in education. So, I have lots to say about education, but I’ll try to limit my comments to your situation:
1. I urge you to take into account your daughter’s learning style. If she is a critical thinker, PBC is going to be difficult for her because that is not encouraged nor complementary to the teaching style there (“drill & kill” meaning lecture and regurgitation of facts via tests).
2. I urge you to consider your daughter’s goals. If she plans to spend her life in an MFI church doing full-time ministry (which is hard for her to decide given that she is single and the only way women “do” full-time ministry in MFI churches is to be married to the one who does it). If your goal as parents is for her to become more “grounded” in MFI theology for a year or two before moving onto real higher education, that might be another reason to send her to PBC. If, however, she wants to get a serious education, be it Christian/Bible or solid liberal arts and then move into a focus/major area for career preparation, then PBC would not be a valid choice.
3. Maybe this should be #1, but I urge you to take into account your daughter’s temperament, mindset, personality and theology…both those she currently possesses and those you/she might like to cultivate. If she is docile, unquestionability submits to “authority figures,” then she would fit in at PBC. If she believes that she must strictly adhere to lists of do’s and don’ts in order to gain salvation, God’s favor, God’s will or access to a higher level of heaven, then she would fit in at PBC. If, however, she truly embraces the Gospel, that Christ’s death on the cross is the ONLY thing required for her complete and permanent acceptance by the Lord and that it is impossible for us to add or subtract from Jesus, then she would be miserable at PBC/CBC, given its legalistic nature.
Again, I’m an educator. I taught in a Christian school once–lowest paying job I EVER had (yes, even before I got a degree I made more on an hourly basis than teaching at a Christian school!) However, the weak academics and legalistic culture were what got me out the door quickly, not the rotten pay. Mostly, I taught public school, which was a tremendous mission field for me for many years. I became an administrator, which also provided terrific ministry opportunities. I also earned decent $, which was significant since I didn’t marry until my early 30′s (and, by then owned my own house). Now, I have kids and am a consultant. Although my family and church are my focus, I earn a very high hourly rate consulting, which means a great deal to my family. PBC is not even on my resume because it’s not accredited and because with a B.A. and M.S., it’s utterly irrelevant. I’m glad I went to PBC, only because I learned about the legalistic system within the church and learned what kind of Christian and church I will not be or propagate. I certainly would never send my kids there. My kids will earn degrees in something that will enable them to earn family-wage jobs, whether that be technical degrees or academic degrees.
Just my .02 worth. I wish you the best in making your decision.
A few years at PBC will not clear your head up after high school.
DonMich,
I went to PBC for 4 years and will never regret it. Taking 4 years to devote time to prayer and the word was definitely worth it for me.
I disagree with those who say that PBC is all their way or the highway. My experience is that it was a GREAT place to ask questions and to question doctrine, professors, and pretty much everything. There was the occasional teacher (usually part-time) who would get defensive, but Ken and Lanny encouraged us into long dialogues with one another hashing out different sides of issues.
As for atmosphere on campus, I went during the 80′s when everything was big hair and somewhat cliquey. Hopefully those are bygone days.
As to rules, there are too many of them. The longer you’re there, the older you are, the more ridiculous they seem. If your daughter is an independent thinker, it may be too confining for her.
If you attend an MFI church and your daughter wants to attend PBC, it might be a good choice for her. PBC has the spirit-filled advantage over Multnomah and their doctrine is consistent with MFI circles.
I can’t imagine a scenario in which someone who doesn’t want to be there would benefit from it.
Hope this helps.
PS. If Concordia University is on your list, I would highly recommend it. There is a spiritual presence on campus that is genuine, and the entire faculty possess a collective humility and servant’s heart. I attended CU-Portland shortly after my PBC years and the difference in humility was astounding. At PBC it was all about trying to be someone. AT CU, the profs knew you already were someone, and were there to serve you in any way possible. The education dept. is superb and was way more high caliber than where I attended for my Master’s.
Spirit-filled advantage?
I thought that was part of being a Christian in that we are all spirit-filled as believers.
You know, this is exactly what I was told by leadership at CBC when I told them I was planning to transfer to Multnomah–that they disagreed with their doctrine & that they were not spirit-filled.
For awhile, I was attending a college group at Montavilla Baptist Church (this was about 8 years ago), and many of the individuals in the group were hurt & angry over this very issue–that their church was not considered “spirit-filled.” They felt frustrated by the close-mindedness and judgment they felt by other congregations–mainly by charasmatic denominations.
You know, the terminology in church groups gets thrown around loosely, and means different things in different religious communities, but the bottom line is that if we are believers, we are all filled with the spirit of Christ, no matter what our religious denomination.
I don’t know who decided in the MFI arena a long time ago that speaking in tongues equaled a spirit-filled person, but I personally think this line of thinking is condascending to other believers.
Is that really the point anyway–speaking in tongues? Singing from hymnals instead of Vineyard collections? Look, we all have our different styles of worship; however, the central point should be that we are one united body of Christ filled with his spirit & living our lives in the best way we know how, which should center around loving our neighbor as ourself.
Anyway, one thing I always liked about Multnomah is how eclectic the student body really is. They come from a range of denominations & backgrounds, making it such a great environment to strengthen your faith as a believer & have meaningful class discussions with such differing perspectives represented.
Okay, enough from me…Karli
I agree with the charismatic doctrine of spirit indwelling. There is a measurable difference in the manifest presence of God between spirit-filled churches and others. I’m sorry if that offends you.
My mom went to Multnomah as have several close friends. It’s a great school and one of the things I admire deeply about my non spirit-filled friend is her ability to think more rationally about her faith than “us” charismatics. She has taught me a lot.
I attended PBC for two years and graduated with my scholastically useless AA. I have no real regrets about my time at PBC or much of the information that I received there. I think that a lot of it depends on the person. I was raised to think for myself and that was reinforced at PBC by Larry Taylor and a few other teachers there. I have, however, been told that all of those teachers have recently been fired. Multnomah would be a good place but have you considered Northwest University in Kirkland, WA? I am currently attending NU and they have an amazing Bible program. Every professor in the program has a Ph.D. and they come from several different denominational backgrounds. Your daughter would receive an excellent, accredited education from well educated, down to earth and in some cases world renowned professors. Because the school is both regionally and nationally accredited, she would have very few problems if she ever wanted to transfer her credits to another school. She would also receive a more well rounded education as NU is a Christian liberal arts school. It has many of the same advantages as PBC without the later academic heartburn. You should check it out.
If this matters at all, I told my younger brother not to go to PBC when he asked me. We were raised in a Christian home. Though my parents were strict, they were not as strict as PBC and I didn’t think it would be a good fit for him at all.
Hi Karli (KK) -
You bring up a subject that has been very difficult for me to reconcile in my faith walk … had I been born into and raised in a charismatic church, I’d probably never have questioned the baptism with the Holy Spirit and spiritual gifts, but, that was not my upbringing. I was born into and attended traditional non-charismatic (or should I say ANTI-charismatic) main-line denominational churches all my life (Presbyterian, Methodist, Evangelical Covenant). In my early 20′s (late 70′s), we did a concert at an independent charismatic church, where I witnessed the gift of tongues for the first time. Afterwards, I started reading books about the baptism with the Holy Spirit spiritual gifts.
From my early 20′s until I was 44 (in 1999) I regularly prayed for the baptism with the Holy Spirit and for whatever spiritual gifts the Father wanted to give me. Many times during the 90′s I experienced the word of knowledge and word of wisdom, and the discernment of spirits, but I didn’t know enough to identify the gifts by name, nor recognize that the Father was indeed giving me the Holy Spirit and the gifts I was asking for.
It wasn’t until March 29th, 1999 that I made the connection, between a wonderful experience with the Holy Spirit and the spiritual gift of tongues, which I received that day. About that experience, being immersed and overwhelmed are the best descriptors. Like being awash in love – and feeling so clean and pure. And the gift of tongues flowed from language to language for several weeks (I was home alone, and not working then, so could devote all day to prayer / tongues).
That experience was so dramatic, that I almost always refer to it as the day I was ‘baptized with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues’ – though I’m not sure that is the correct terminology – and – in my experience, such language / assertions is indeed hurtful and divisive to others who have not had the experience. There’s an exclusivity about the experience and announcing it (like a zealot
) that has separated me from close friends and family.
With the exception of my wife Karen (also nicknamed KK) who has the same gifts, all my friends and family still go to those traditional main-line anti-charismatic churches – and none of them have ever experienced anything like Karen and I have experienced. In fact, the main-line church Karen and I attended asked us to leave when they discovered we had the gift of tongues.
And therein lies the situation that I can’t figure out. How can a church throw us out because of the Holy Spirit and the gifts the Father has given us? How can the people, who claim to be spirit-filled Christians / believes not recognize the Holy Spirit in us?
Perhaps they’re not really spirit-filled – perhaps what they call a church, is really just a fortress they’ve built to keep the Holy Spirit out.
This much I know – 1 Corinthians 2:12-15 speaks to people who have, and do not have the Holy Spirit. It takes the Holy Spirit to know and understand the things of the Holy Spirit. And so the fact that they do not understand, and even escort the Spirit filled vessels out the door, suggests to me they do not have the Holy Spirit, and one can not make the carte blanc statement that all believers (or all church-goers) have the Holy Spirit or are spirit-filled. In my experience, it is possible to program ones mind with scripture, such that one walks like, talks like, acts like, a believer. But in the heart there is no presence of the Spirit and no relationship with the Lord. Such is why He says to some “I never knew you”.
It breaks my heart that I can’t talk about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit with my friends and family. For the moment I speak of the Son, they talk about their churches. I will never forget the words of my mother-in-law who upon finding out Karen and I spoke in tongues:
“Well, we love you anyway”
It was the words of a friend that finally gave me some closure – I had told him how frustrated I was that despite my best efforts, my most powerful arguments, my scriptural gymnastics, I was never successful in showing my friends and family the difference between dead religion / churchianity, and relationship with Christ via the Holy Spirit …
He said: “Because of the Holy Spirit, you are speaking to them in tongues EVEN when you are speaking to them in English” … and that helped me understand 1 Corinthians 2:12-15 a little better – and the difference between those with, and without the Holy Spirit.
I don’t feel any better about it Karli – it still aches me – that they can’t hear or understand me – that they’ve sold out relationship for religion – that in persecuting us and throwing us out of their churches, they have persecuted and thrown out Christ.
All we can pray is “reveal Yourself to them and give them the Holy Spirit, Lord” and look forward to the day that He does – whereupon they will finally recognize the Spirit that is in us.
Blessings! Jack
That’s a very insightful comment, Jack. I’ve often wondered how Jesus will make the destinction of whom he ‘knows’ and whom he does not.
But is not the presence of the holy spirit a gift sent to the “church” (I use the term loosely to represent people after new testament..) that was sent AFTER Jesus died?
If so, then what of all the people who lived before, under the old law? And the people who existed before (and now) who have never heard of the holy spirit? Are they going to be denied by Christ, because the spirit does not live within them?
I’m not so sure it’s black and white.
Personally, I believe that one is “born again” with new life the moment one accepts Christ’s sacrifice of dying in our place. (Whatever form of understanding/believe that might take, given some people live and die without being exposed to “the gospel”, as we know it.)
I believe the filling of the holy spirit is a gift, to be sought, but is not a mandatory experience to “be known” by Christ or to receive his gift of grace and salvation.
That’s the basics… but then moving forward, what is salvation without also the holy spirit to walk with you? I strongly believe that anyone who accepts salvation/grace should also persevere after the gift of the holy spirit.
But it is “extra”, and not a requirement for salvation.
I’m not so sure either, Henri.
At the end of the 1 Corinthians 13 passage, sandwiched in the middle of Paul’s discourse on the Holy Spirit and spiritual gifts (ch. 12-14), is the passage that talks about our need for gifts fading/passing away when we reach maturity (translations often render it “perfection”, but maturity is more appropriate). It is written that spiritual gifts are given to build up and edify the church (unto maturity). And so in the end, when we’ve reached that maturity, and the need for gifts has faded away, it says “these 3 remain: faith, hope, and love – and the greatest (gift) of these is love”.
Surely I have met believers who’s only apparent gift is love.
And I have met believers who speak in tongues who had little/no love for others; but rather, only love for their gift, and who judged others by the gifts they had.
On the flip side, I have been judged for having the gift of tongues.
Perhaps it simply boils down to our flawed assessment of maturity and our human tendency for seeking out ones own kind – that there is such division / stratification in the church. And the only difference is where we are on the path to Christ. To the person ahead of me on the path, I’m immature, my revelations their “yesterday’s news” … to the person behind me, I’m a lunatic, babbling on about things unseen …
I still have trouble going into a place that preaches against what I have / know … never was big on getting lumped.
How wonderful that God has made us all so different.
“There is a measurable difference in the manifest presence of God between spirit-filled churches and others. I’m sorry if that offends you.”
I really do find that offensive. I don’t speak in tongues so I guess I am not “spirit-filled” by your definition. I attend a Nazarene church and I feel God’s presence there everytime I go. I feel and recognize God working in my life everyday if I take the time I need to to be in fellowship with Him. And when I’m not, I can always count on a nudge that I believe is from the Holy Spirit to get me back on track. You can’t tell me that the Holy Spirit is not a part of my walk with God.
I think that’s great that you worship the way you feel led to worship. But I am troubled by the implication of superiority.
[Comment ID #6040 Will Be Quoted Here] John 7:39 “But this He spoke
of the Spirit whom those who believed in Him were to receive;”
This has seemed to me to be a very inclusive verse about the H.S. I think the gifts are a seperate issue, which we should pursue as in 1 Cor. 12:31,
14:1, 12.
As for being disturbed by the implication of superiority, I feel the same way whenever I see some one on a platform looking down at me, or lecturing me from behind a pulpit.
How I wish the word “believed” had been translated “trusted” instead. In this english culture, believed seems to mean that one is convinced / persuaded that Christ is who He says He is – to me, belief is more of an intellectual thing, and doesn’t necessarily imply a personal relationship with Christ. On the other hand, trusted implies a helpless reliance upon upon Christ for salvation – which I find more consistent with the gospel message.
Trusting also implies an understanding that the works of the flesh are vain, whereas the more intellectual nature of believing seems to lend itself to religious works.
For all my attempts to “believe” (believe and receive, blab and grab, etc.), I never received more of the Spirit/gifts. But it was during those times of crushing and broken-ness, where all I could do was trust, that I received.
…
Years after receiving what I asked for for 20 years, the gifts aren’t what I want, nearly so much as I just want to fellowship in the freedom of Christ, with others who want Christ. Where we are mature / humble / broken / secure enough in Christ, to let one another be what Christ has made us to be.
But I don’t think that exists here – but rarely. My flesh alwas seems to assert itself, and muck things up.
The implication of superiority applies to any person or group who think their way is the best way or the only way.
I do not feel superior about something God offers as a free gift. I will not, however get drawn into an argument which I felt KK was trying to do. Nor will I give a lengthy defense to something the Word clearly teaches. My spirit-filled advantage comment was directed to DonMich, not fodder for all you who feel like ripping things apart every time you smell fresh blood.
If I commented here every time something offended me, I would be as boring as many of you.
Well now isn’t that special …
Wow
Hi Henri,
In my last post, I meant to include an observation a friend of mine made about Christ knowing or not knowing someone. My friend simply linked the word ‘knowing’ to Mary’s response to the angel Gabriel (Luke 1:34) where she said “seeing I know not a man” – she had never experienced intimacy / oneness with a man … and so perhaps Jesus use of the word “know” is that the person simply was never intimate with Jesus (never allowed him to enter them) …
Also – concerning those seemingly black and white comments about the Holy Spirit and gifts – I thought about it last night and this morning some more – and I do apologize if my statements sounded black and white … there are so-called non-charismatic churches I have attended where I still felt the presence of the Holy Spirit – whether in a song or in the pastors apparent heartache during a message, a testimony, a scripture reading that hit home, etc. It would be wrong to say that the Holy Spirit was absent from that gathering, just because there was no spontaneous manifestation of tongues and interpretation, or there wasn’t a prophetic receiving line after the service …
Just because someone is filled with or baptized with the Holy Spirit, doesn’t mean they’ve arrived at maturity, or never face battles with the carnal nature (flesh), or spirits of oppression and fear. Those battles are individual, as well as corporate – and sometimes, the enemy has the advantage, and is successful in oppressing the Holy Spirit. Or, individuals and assemblies allow their fears to rule them thereby quenching the Holy Spirit.
For example, one can not rubber-stamp-approve CBC because they’re “spirit filled” (the comments here and in Franks sermons strongly suggest that the Holy Spirit has taken a back seat to the manifest carnal nature of CBC – where the Holy Spirit becomes a servant to the lusts of their flesh). Nor can one say the Holy Spirit is absent from a Methodist, Baptist, Persbyterian, Nazarene church, et al, just because there is no ecstatic / spontaneous expression of the Spirit through gifts.
I just wish that we could overcome those spirits of fear and oppression that have served to divide and conquer the Church.
Thanks for challenging me and giving me something to chew on, Henri.
Jack
“Fair and balanced” seems to mean trying to dance around the issues of the many problems with PBC and being polite about not offending someone with your opinion of PBC. I, for one, am proud not to be.
I attended for one year, and it really messed me up. The one good thing that came out of that experience is that I became really disillusioned with the whole idea of being in the ministry at an MFI church. Sadly, I chose to stick around at CBC for another decade, because I’m a little bit thick-headed. But, I digress.
PBC is a facade for church indoctrination and doesn’t deserve the title of “college”. The degree is worthless. The few teachers that encouraged the students to think for themselves were fired or have left on their own. The very strict rules and the “my way or the highway” attituded should give anyone serious pause about attending. I would echo earlier comments, that the only valid reason for attending is to climb the career ladder of MFI churches, and since your daughter is a not a man, she would be better off plotting a scheme to marry an MFI youth pastor. I think Bryan Bettis is still available.
I feel I should also mention that I know personally many people who were very hurt by the faculty and staff of PBC and CBC. I could tell many tales of terrible things done to students over issues as silly as making their beds and what kinds of music they listen to. Some of those stories have already been told here, and so I won’t belabor the point. Every time I think about the hard core legalism projected onto students I shudder. I know some of the rules have been relaxed, but it is akin to admitting that they might have been wrong about some of those things, and they still manage to keep the death-grip on a student’s behavior. Any “college” that disciplines it’s students beyond academics is suspect in my book.
Regarding the off-topic discussion on the HS, I subscribed to the MFI theology from an early age. I was “baptized in the HS” when I was 9, but even after PBC and years of indoctrination, I’ve come to change my mind about how that works. The HS is a gift to every believer (Eph. 1:13,14) and God gives gifts to whoever he pleases (1 Cor. 12). These are things we can agree upon, however, I still can’t find any verses that explain the bizarre theory that there is some special baptism or that one has to speak in tongues for it to count. One of my primary reasons for disavowing the MFI stance is that it DOES create a superiority complex and divides Christians. Thank you, Kari Michelle, for proving my point so eloquently. The other primary reason is that this kind of thinking fits in too nicely with the pharisaical mentality of CBC/MFI. That it is possible to be “better” than other Christians, specificially, to have more of God and the HS and thus be holier than the rest. It doesn’t fit with the idea that we’re all sinners in need of grace and by that same grace we are equally sons/daughters and priests. No one has a leg up on the next guy because he can speak in tongues, or because he chooses not to. I could go on a lot more about this, but the reason I mention it, is that in the context of this college choice thread, it is a specific example of how PBC will wreck someone’s theology.
DonMich, the best advice I think I can give you is to seek out college advisors and guidance counselors at various schools. Sit down with them with your daughter and plan out what she wants to accomplish with her education. I think you will find it much easier to make a decision after that.
I’m not offended, I’m just scientifically curious how you measure it!? A Godometer??
[Comment ID #6065 Will Be Quoted Here]
Don’t you measure the “presence” of God by how many people are laughing, shaking, barking, jumping, falling down, or peeing in the spirit at any given moment?
lol.
Henri beat me to it…
I’ve seen services where dozens of people were smacked in the forehead in order to innduce being “slain in the spirit”. I don’t remember feeling any closer to God at those moments.
I’m so glad someone said it. I was thinking “ectoplasmic psychometer” myself. I’m so sorry. But when words like “measurable” and “advantge” are used…
“peeing in the Spirit”..lol
Seriously, I’m a Nazarene, do people really pee in the Spirit?
[Comment ID #6073 Will Be Quoted Here]
Yes, but unlike regular peeing, peeing in the spirit doesn’t leave unsightly carpet stains.
[Comment ID #6073 Will Be Quoted Here]
I’ve seen a lot of things happen where people claim it was “in the spirit”. To be honest, I have never seen peeing in the spirit… but I have seen “retching” in the spirit. (That’s right. Retching. Picture a small group of people with the dry heaves, going at it nice and strong..)
It was utterly rediculous, and of course they claimed it was inspired by “the spirit”, so hey.. who’s gonna argue with that?
The spirit made me do it!
Catalysts mother (who reads this blog) used to “Retch in the spirit daily”.
I hope she isn’t offended.
How else would a charismaniac mark his territory?
Is there anyone out there who can give me some insight on executive pastor Marc Estes?
He’s rich biatch!
That seems like it should be an oxymoron or somepin’.
Pastor is used only once in the bible – Ephesians 4:11. Everywhere else the word is translated shepherd. Just tryin’ to imagine what an ‘executive shepherd‘ would look like.
Maybe he wears a camel-hair tie with his robe? Maybe him get a company camel and corner office back at shepherd HQ?
[Comment ID #6109 Will Be Quoted Here]
HYSTERICAL
You might try Beacon University (www.beacon.edu). A Christian University offers several marketable degree programs in a Christian atmosphere.
Or Multnumah is good. I’m a big fan of George Fox University as well.
Is this THE LA? Or is this a fake?
Fakers go to the bad place. Or maybe they are just faking that they are.
Arcane thought, “Faking usually brings great pleasure to those around you, but leaves the faker frustrated.”
[Comment ID #6159 Will Be Quoted Here]
can you get me info in beacon?
are you working there now?
email to dmorris445 at comcast.net
[Comment ID #6159 Will Be Quoted Here]
haha Look at Larry, already pimpin’ his new school.
Well, folks, you couldn’t get a better opinion about PBC than from one of it’s most venerable (and former) teachers.