Marathon Vision (and Marathon Post, sorry)
Posted on June 5th, 2006 by Reformed Pope into the Uncategorized categoryI too have a Marathon Vision for the "Christian Church" allow me to share it with you.
In general, I'm not a big fan of Church. Don't get me wrong, as far as churches go, I love the one I go to. The sermons follow scripture, the people are real, the songs we sing during worship are actually songs giving praise to God, instead of songs about ourselves, and I often learn and grow there (I have learned and grown a ton in the past few years and for that I am very greatfull)
A quick side note: there is one song we sing called "Just sing" . The lyrics are something like:
"And I don't know why, I Don't know why, I don't know why,
But there's something inside of me, something in side of me saying,
Just Sing"
It goes something like that. And every time we sing it I can't help but get frustrated. Just sing? Exactly. Just sing, damn it. Why are we singing about wanting to sing? It's ridiculous.
Anyway, as I was saying; I like my church. The worship is good, the teaching is good, the programs are good, I even like the people (most of them). But that's not the point.
As I sit in the pews week after week I wonder "why"? Why do we go to church? Why is worship always singing? Why does the sermon have to be 45 minutes long? Why am I expected to be in a small group based on my age or geographic location? Why do we do the things we do and what purpose do they serve?
I decided to scrap everything I know about church and tried to imagine what I would do if I had never been inside a church in my life, if out of nowhere I went from living on the moon to becoming a Christian and living on earth.
Would my Christianity be acted out by meeting with other Christians once a week to sing, pray, and be taught from the Bible?
I'm not sure it would.
Oddly enough, I find myself wondering what Jesus would do? What Jesus did?
Seems to me, Jesus spent most of his time ministering to others. He walked around teaching and preaching and eating and drinking and sacrificing. Ah yes, there it is. Sacrifice. To sum up Jesus, Sacrifice. He gave everything. Makes me think I owe everything… but how?
Ok, I don't know how. I'm selfish. But there's got to be a better way. Christians are constantly mocked by public television, newspapers, radio, even this blog, and it isn't because the devil is persecuting them. It's because we're arrogant assholes, who go to church every week to hear about being a "good person" and rarely do anything about it. Jesus helped people, we talk about helping people. Jesus lived a life of sacrifice, we dream about one.
Suppose your pastor got up one Sunday and said "Next Sunday, our Church Service is going to be going down to the homeless shelter to feed lunch and to build relationship with people in need". What percentage of people would show up that week? 10%? Less then 10%? (less than a tithe?? Ouch!)
Unfortunately, the current focus of Church seems to be itself, while the focus of Jesus was always on others.
So what does my ideal church look like? Let's see…
I would like Sunday service to be just that…Sunday SERVICE.
Go to a children's hospital…smile, hug, read a few books. That's church. Your service is service, your worship is service.
Go feed the homeless, pick up some trash in the street, mow an old lady's lawn, get involved with a charity, march for AIDS, I don't really care…
Let's get the Church (big C) to stop focusing on the church (little C) and start focusing on Christ (The biggest C).
Sunday morning the congregation could meet and serve somewhere. Then during the week everyone could get together for a Bible study, worship (by song), prayer, and the rest of the traditional church activities, if they wanted. But Sunday…Sunday would be reserved for acting out what we have been taught about all our Christian life.
To me this sounds more like church, more like Jesus.
Who's in?
June 5th, 2006 at 6:21 pm
You make me want to bark like a Toronto blessing!!!!!!!
I am with you, but convention is against us.
My wife and I blow off Wednesday church to visit the sick in the hospital and pray. Church was (little c) far too dry. The only Wednesday we attend is when we have dinner at the church once a month. We listen, console, encourage and pray for the people “assigned” to us. ( I hate conventionalism) But, it is real ministry.
Once a month we have a “cell” group that is mostly about food and friendships. We often have people bring their unsaved or newly saved to the group. It is a good introduction to the Church (big C).
Our low point of the week is typically Sun morning. It starts with arriving early and asking God to please show up. Sometimes he does, but most are spending so much time acting like he was already there, they never notice.
Rock on Reformed Frank!
June 5th, 2006 at 6:23 pm
Will there be a special prize for the 100,000th hit on the blog?
Are celebrations in order? - - - Congrats Morton boys!!!
June 5th, 2006 at 10:09 pm
Sacrifice!
loud and clear!
I spend it at the hardware store helping idiots destroy their overpriced houses -_-
BUT I’m in! I still have 10 hours of day left to Sacrifice for others.
If you got the Java?
p.s f— convention. before elvis was convention after elvis was… um ELVIS
IM still in
maybe start it out in groups like the Kell’s slinging beers thing? where you could plan and people could have a week to get ready for what they were gonna sacrifice the following Sacrifice day i.e look at weather reports before flying kites
June 5th, 2006 at 10:16 pm
I agree. Good idea.
June 6th, 2006 at 7:07 am
Reformed Pope,
This is by far your best post (that I’ve seen on this site.) We (The Church) need to stop settling for the comfortable religion. Nothing Christ did on earth was comfortable for most people. I agree, I agree.
However, there is a purpose for the church. I think the issue at hand is how to suffocate the existing infrastructure of the church and rebuild it from the organic message of Jesus. Can this get done? I guess that depends on how much we want it - Christ knows it won’t be comfortable.
Again, good post.
June 6th, 2006 at 8:32 am
JohnPaul, I could not agree with you more. I love my church too, and I really feel a sense of connection with the people that I meet with every Sunday morning. I’ve never learned so much about church or the Bible in my whole life as I have in the past two years. But recently, as I’m raising my own two children, I started to wonder the same thing as you: what would my life look like if I had not been raised in a Godly environment by Godly, loving parents? Would I have even gotten saved by this point in my life? The even harder question for me was, where is the difference between who I am as a Christian, and who I would be if I did not know Him?
I think that going to church is a necessary, vital part of Christian life. For me, I need to get together with the family of God, to either encourage or be encouraged. I love the worship (and no, it does not always have to be singing), I love being challenged through the word of God, and I love that my kids are ministered to. I think the deeper my relationship with God gets, the harder it is to ignore what He says in the Bible about serving the lost, the poor, the weary, the hungry. And I think you are right about how the world sees Christians - fat, lazy, and yet still pointing the finger. It makes me mad, yet knowing how I live my life I am definitely still in that group. So what do we do about it? It’s not enough to say what should be done, or to throw money at the problem. Someone has to do the heavy lifting.
By the way, I was at the Well a couple weeks ago with my kids, but I missed seeing you and Tanell. Hopefully next time we can catch up. Even though I don’t completely agree with everything that’s said on this blog, I still think you’re doing a really good job. Thank you.
June 6th, 2006 at 11:52 am
I can tell you. I was saved at 19 while drunk at 1 in the am on the streets of Lawton, OK by a Native American Spirit filled Methodist evangelist. (Talk about playing all sides of the court) He attended no church, but made his living preaching the Gospel in local churches and raising funds to go back to preach on the reservations across the country.
Jesus freed me from a life of chaos and inner torture. There is no doubt that what happened changed my life forever. It set the course from that point on.
I am jealous of those of you who were raised in the church. My wife has never known a time where there was no presence of the Lord.
Although the church has never lived up to my initial experiences in the Lord, I found it to be a place of refuge, friendship, and kinship. It terrifies me to think that I would have to walk this life alone. I have done this and I never want to do it again. I (WE) am (were) built for fellowship!
I spent last evening talking a friend off of the ledge of wanting to quit the church. He was right in everything he said about the failings and abuses of the church. But, it is the only boat afloat.
As to the issue of suffocating the existing church: I am not upset by the church most days. It is the best that sinful man can do. My goal is to expose the people around me to the living God. When they taste and see what is real, they will never be satisfied with the manmade imitation.
Let the real Church arise!!!!
June 6th, 2006 at 12:15 pm
The wheat and the tares grow up together, and it is very hard to sort them out. Sometimes I hear a sermon and think it was good, other times I cannot imagine where it came from.
For me it came down to reading through the gospels and making a list of everything Jesus said to do, and what He said not to do. Then start to live it out. It has been quite an eye opener! Matt. 23:10 “Do not be called leaders.” Matt. 6:34, “make no oath at all” (I’ll include membership pledges, financial faith commitments among others in this.) How about the Lord’s prayer, Matt. 6:9, “Pray then, in this way:” verse 11 implies daily prayer. Jesus spoke of the kingdom of God about 150 times in the gospels. The church is mentioned 3 times. I cannot remember hearing a sermon about the kingdom of God, but I’ve heard the church mentioned every Sunday! I could go on, but I’m still in the process of working through it all.
I like the approach you have taken. Sunday sermon Christianity is getting us nowhere fast. A new paradign is badly needed, and it needs to come from the grass root up! Those who make huge amounts of $$$$ from the name of Christ are always going to promote the status quo.
June 6th, 2006 at 1:10 pm
Hi everyone, Satan here, just wanted to drop you all a line to encourage you to keep going to Church. I know you may be thinking “There’s got to be something better than this” but let me tell you the church is doing a fine job.
You see, I helped cause man to sin and now it’s the best they can do. Sure they may fail, abuse, and take advantage of you, but get down from that ledge; after all, they’re the only boat in town.
I’ve noticed that you seem upset by the lack of effort by the church, but what more could they possibly do? Oh, and don’t worry about all those lost and hurting souls out there, I’ve got my best guys on it.
Everything is going to be just fine.
-Lucifer
June 6th, 2006 at 5:30 pm
Reformed Frank - Well written, good points, (on your head and tail)!
Really though, I think we do agree.
Isaiah cried out that the religious actions, festivals, and fasts were disgusting to the Lord.
Jehovah’s response to their carnal religion was:
Isa 58:6 –Isa 58:9 (NKJV)
“Is this not the fast that I have chosen:
To loose the bonds of wickedness,
To undo the heavy burdens,
To let the oppressed go free,
And that you break every yoke?
Is it not to share your bread with the hungry,
And that you bring to your house the poor who are cast out;
When you see the naked, that you cover him,
And not hide yourself from your own flesh?
Then your light shall break forth like the morning,
Your healing shall spring forth speedily,
And your righteousness shall go before you;
The glory of the Lord shall be your rear guard.
Then you shall call, and the Lord will answer;
You shall cry, and He will say, ‘Here I am.’
Let the real church arise!
Arcane thought, “What would happen if we just believed and did what we sang during worship on Sunday.”
June 6th, 2006 at 6:15 pm
Waaaaaaait a minute.
Did Reformed Frank just call me Satan?
That title has been reserved for me by my wife on Sunday afternoons when I have been babbling on nonstop about any given fraud at church.
But if you must have your own pet name for me, I guess we can work it out sort of like a time-share.
June 6th, 2006 at 6:38 pm
Arcane, I retract my comment about you on a different post.
Maybe you’re only arcane when it comes to male-female relationships.
I love what you say here.
I love what you’re all saying here.
I used to work with homeless kids, and with kids otherwise very needy. I even did that with some other young adults from CBC (then BT). We loved it, the kids loved it, the kids were influenced, drawn to God, changed. We were changed, at least I know I was. But, the core of the church resisted it, rejected the kids when we brought them to church, and that was the “nicest” thing I can say about how the church overall reacted. So, we stopped. Went back to trying to just “do church” and interact only with Christians. But, I’ve never been good an only hanging with Christians, especially who take the light for granted. So, I ventured out on my own to work with the unlovely. Changed my life for the better. I was also seeing lots of “good fruit.” Ended up nearly dead from a horrific experience at the hands of those I was working to “save.” BT told me it was my fault, that I must have “taken myself out from the Lord’s protective covering.” That’s the reader’s digest version, obviously. I finally saw the light, realized we had completely different theology, and left that church (I know, most of you would have left long before; I have a thick skull). I spent so long working on recovering from all of it (the trauma itself and the church’s response to me/it), that I’m now just glad to be alive & sane. But, is that enough? What did God spare my life for if not to win others? I’m ashamed that I no longer intentionally seek out unbelievers. I want to. I appreciate this post because it is nudging me to to do. Again. With the Gospel, not some legalistic Christianity.
Thanks for the post and comments.
June 6th, 2006 at 6:55 pm
Thanks Matrix
On our most recent visit to the hospital, I encountered two 71 year old men. One from an evangelical mainline denomination, the other Catholic.
The evangelical wouldn’t let me talk to him until he had quizzed me on a variety of doctrines that were apparently very important to him. By the time we got down to eternal security, I was getting frustrated. He finally said I could pray for him if it would make me feel better.
In bed two lay the Catholic man, gasping for breath, barely able to speak. (By this time my wife had arrived) And he begged us to please pray for him. We prayed for God’s presence, peace, comfort, and healing to surround him.
I have no doubt which prayer God heard. (That’s my arrogance speaking)
But, isn’t this the kind of Christianity Jesus showed us? Desperate men seeking a God who wants desperately to love them?
Arcane thought, “Why is it that God gives grace and loves the humble so much?”
June 6th, 2006 at 8:37 pm
FFTM
Just spent a bit of time perusing your blogs.
We have much in common:
educators
masters degree - (I carry 2, elem administration, the other library science)
strong tendency to be overly verbose
our theology differs only slightly
I would be interested in knowing why you went to PBC after getting a BA?
Are you female? If so, I would really be interested in your perspective given that CBC seems very male dominated with the exception of worship.
i have never attended CBC, but have visited. But, the megachurch charismatic experience seems to be pretty consistent wherever you are. I stick around to be the barb under the saddle. Somebody’s gotta do it. Which reminds me, I owe my pastor an email concerning his misuse of scripture on Sunday. I know he tries hard, but he is a product of Rhema.
Arcane thought, “Would I be pleased with me analyzing my own life, teachings, actions?”
June 6th, 2006 at 9:04 pm
Arcane,
I totally own the verbosity! Are you a principal then? Are you in Oregon or elsewhere? I could not be the thorn in the flesh of a mega-church pastor, but more power to you. Are you in an MFI church? Rhema is a term I haven’t (thankfully) heard in awhile. For a season, I worked w/a bunch of former ORU grads, so I got more than my fill of that silliness.
I only have one Master’s (Ed Admin), so you take the cake there, but I also have my K-12 administrative license, which combined gets me about 1/2-way through a PhD program, but since I can’t decide whether to go PhD or EdD, and because I’m just not sure I care enough about impressing the people who that degree will give me credibility with, I’m taking a break from higher ed for now.
Yes, I’m female. I went to PBC after “real college,” honestly, because the Lord directed me to. It was down to Bible college or missions, which got narrowed to PBC or YWAM. Given all I’ve heard about YWAM, it’s probably just as well I didn’t end up with them. At any rate, my pastors led an MFI church in another state, and they urged me to attend PBC, and since I felt led to Bible college and they pushed PBC, I just did it. My goal (which I accomplished) was to take classes in certain areas: youth ministry, worship and basic theology (the first two because they were my passion at the time and latter because I was deluded in thinking that because I wasn’t raised in a Christian home that I somehow had cracks in my theology foundation; of course at PBC I learned that five years in secular university helped me to know what I believed and why to a greater extent than any of my classmates who were raised in BT/MFI. So, I learned that God had indeed given me a “heritage,” just a different kind on a compressed timeline). I don’t regret going because the Lord directs our steps, and despite all the nonsense, I can trace back some wonderful lessons, friends, and, most of all meeting my husband, to being at PBC/BT (because I met him from a person I knew through my experiences there, although, we both thank God that he never was immersed in the MFI system). God uses everything for our good and I know He used my two years at PBC/eight years at CBC for His good and my good, primarily to show me what Christianity is NOT. This is a hindsight perspective; I was more of a hot-head about it five years ago. The hypocrisy and phariseeism there just angers me utterly.
You’re absolutely right that BT/MFI is male-dominated. That never did set well with me, because I believe that BT/MFI completely distorts God’s plans for women and promotes a reductive “role” for women, both in the home and church; also, it didn’t go over well with me because I’m no wall flower (to put it mildly), but I was single the whole time I was there, did my best to maximize that, and always figured that God would ensure I met His man for me while running my own race, and that he’d be strong enough to deal with me (which is what happened, thankfully). At any rate, women’s roles inside and outside of church is of great interest to me and I’ve studied it a great deal. Women who “succeed” at CBC essentially submit to a lobotomy. Doesn’t exactly fulfill “love the Lord with all your MIND.” I could tell you stories. Lots of sad stories about the poor women, both single & married. Of course, if women are repressed, men are robbed from enjoying the blessings that come from women living as the Lord intends. So, everyone loses.
OK, I’ve lived up to verbosity. Sorry to be long-winded. I don’t know if I addressed the “perspective” re: male dominance that you mentioned. Please, let me know if you want more specifics.
Blessings,
FFTM
June 6th, 2006 at 10:41 pm
great post RP (and btw, great to hang with you and other posters at the meet n greet at Kells last month).
I read a quote somewhere about shutting down a machine. Sometimes, in an effort to shut down a system, the people in that system must throw themselves onto the cogs to jam up the machine, to cause it to destroy itself.
I’ve asked myself many times, Now how would that look? What cogs in the religious system that chokes the church need to be jammed up? And how can I do it?
I don’t know. I just stand here and stare,mesmerized by the hum of the droning machinery that is called church (big C) and wonder, “What will it take?”
June 7th, 2006 at 5:19 am
The machine requires two things: drones, and men willing to do things under their own steam
There are names for the wrenches that jam up the system. Daniel, Elijah, John the baptist.
There are other names as well: Lucifer, Beelzibub, Belial
Just because we are a wrench doesn’t make us right, it just moves us to the extremes. Interesting that the end of either of these groups is not pleasant. Pick your poison outcast and death, or eternal destruction. I guess that is why I try to be careful when throwing wrenches.
June 7th, 2006 at 5:29 am
FFTM - I guess this explains well enough your choice of blog name. I know my blog name describes my perspective.
I operate under the asumption that I will be hurt at church. I have never left a place until I feel the Lord s directing me to a new place. Usually when things are calm. My stop before this one was in a Wesleyan Methodist church. I learned a lot about how God works outside charismania. When I left, not only was all at peace, but my pastor (remember I was a thorn) begged me not to leave.
Until I am thrown out or am directed to go, I continue to be God’s gift to my current pastor. I take hits, but that would be expected for the wrench in the cog.
June 7th, 2006 at 5:55 am
Take a look at who harassed the group of prophets you mentioned: Babylon, Jezebel/Ahab, and Herod. If a similar prophet appeared today, are you saying their are comparable evil forces at work in the church today? Maybe somebody better get a bigger wrench.
I would argue the second group from your post doesn’t use or need wrenches in most cases. I see enough of their fingerprints in many modern churches.
It’s interesting to see your reaction to RP’s suggestion for church. Instead of singing songs and listening to sermons, he’s giving you an alternative weekly dose of hands on ministry. It would be a great way of showing Jesus love and following his example rather than paying lip service from a pew without getting our hands a little dirty. Why are you so stuck on the status quo that is proving more and more to be broken?
June 7th, 2006 at 6:35 am
Let’s see, I think you missed my earlier post. My wife and I go weekly to the hospital to wspend time with the sick and pray for comfort and healing. I believe that I also state that we blew of Wednesday church to do it.
Come on Fezzik, you’ve been reading and writing here long enough to know that you should read the whole thread before responding. I think that should be one of the ten commandments of CityBusinessChurch. But I digress.
Up until this year we worked at an orphanage in Mexico once a year for a week. Health issues prevent me from going again. (Is there a Benny Hinn out there?)
We do tithe (is that like swearing here?) but we make a point of setting aside money every month for those who come across our path in need.
My hands are dirty - that is what offends so many. They think there must be some great call on our lives. There isn’t. We’re just trying to walk out what is before us with a pure heart.
The institutions you listed above were all about maintaining the status quo of their religious system. Mostly its about their fear of losing power. (I think) And yes, I do believe that the same carnal spirit would attempt to put to death anyone who brought a sincere word from the Lord to change.
There are few things available to us to cause change within the church. One is our mouth and the other is prayer. Both are necessary, the latter is more effective but exceeding slow. (I do not want to rule out actions here, but I will assume that what a person says they also do.) That last comment even cracked me up.
Arcane thought: “If the bride is to be without spot or wrinkle, I want to use the drycleaner that is going to make it happen.”
June 7th, 2006 at 7:05 am
Come on Arcane, you shouldn’t jump to a conclusion about what I’ve read. I’ve read all your comments, and I think you are being inconsistent. On one hand you say you agree with things said in this thread. Then, I see your comments like the current church is “the best we can do.” or you “talked a friend of the ledge of wanting to quit the church.”
Those comments lead me to think you’re taking the stance that we should be going to and supporting the church status quo because there’s nothing better. I don’t agree with that and I think a major change is needed.
I wasn’t specifically calling you out to get your hands dirty either. That’s wonderful that you do extracurricular work outside of church, but how many other Joe and Jane Church members do the same? How many of them go to church on Sunday, sing a few songs, listen to the sermon, talk to some friends, and leave church to go about their lives? I would argue that RPs alternative of church would get more people and money out in the world helping people and that’s the point isn’t it?
June 7th, 2006 at 7:56 am
You are correct in so much of what you say. The reason I see for the church is that it is a command. (Is that legalistic? maybe.) Secondly, from personal experience I have seen so many who get seperated out of the church destroyed by the enemy.
Fezzik said,
but how many other Joe and Jane Church members do the same? How many of them go to church on Sunday, sing a few songs, listen to the sermon, talk to some friends, and leave church to go about their lives?
You are right on the nose on this one. Jesus went to the synogogues to teqch the religious people how to have a relationship with God. I go to church because that is where many Christians are. And that is where I speak the message that I believe is being spoken of in this thread. That is: REPENT (of your own ways) BELIEVE, and ACT. People handle it pretty well until you get to the last one.
I believe church (big C) is the only boat afloat. I just realize that I have to be one of those bailing water, repairing hulls, restarting engines, and yelling iceberg while the majority sit on deck with umbrella drinks listening to the band.
Recently my pastor told me that my wife was struggling with the church (she stayed home to pray and read) because I had been negative toward the church and up and down in my faith. After fasting for 4 days (maybe he was right) my wife and I ended up with a face to face meeting where we proclaimed that his building project was more than useless if the presence of God were not in it, we continued in prayerlessness, and he continued to attack sheep.
He repented and began to meet nightly with everyone he thought he may have offended. It will be a long road back, but I see a shift in the rudder of the ship.
My prayer is that people get a taste of God so that they will not be satisfied with the crap (swearing?) that goes on in most churches on Sunday morning.
Fezzik, I think we are closer in thought on this than you know. We just have different approaches. Hence the name Arcane. I don’t need to be understood by them. (or you! or do I?)
June 7th, 2006 at 9:29 am
In the IC, there is always the push to “DO” things…go to Sunday service, go to a conference, be involved in childrens ministry, get out the vote, raise money for ???. BUSY No time for prayer or quiet thought.
Being
Under
Satan’s
Yoke
Maybe we should heed Paul’s advice in 1 Thessalonians 4:11 “Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life,and attend to your own business, and work with your hands, just as we commanded you.”
One Sunday a year or so ago, I skipped church because I was so burned out. As the day wore on, I started to feel a bit guilty that I had not “attended service”. I went out into the yard, and as I was standing there looking at some shrubs, a disabled lady I have long seen around the neighborhood walked by. I said hello, and she informed me that she had to move because her elderly mother had gone into a care home. She started to cry, and told me how hard it was, since she had been there so many years. I just stood and listened to her for a bit, and told her I was sorry to see her go. She then smiled and said she had found a new place and it would be a nice change.
The Lord spoke quietly to me then, and said that was the reason I stayed home that Sunday.
June 7th, 2006 at 10:35 am
And the Lord would say “Well done, good and faithful servant.”
I admit, i go to church out of habit. However, if something comes up that is ministry, I drop church. But, then again, I am not in a position where I have responsibilities on Sunday morning.
I am a bit confused. What does IC stand for?
June 7th, 2006 at 12:34 pm
“The reason I see for the church is that it is a command. (Is that legalistic? maybe.)”
Church was instituted for the “uplifting of the saints”. It was never a command. I think that misconception is the root of a lot of problems in the modern church and where our views differ although our conclusions seem to be similar.
“Secondly, from personal experience I have seen so many who get seperated out of the church destroyed by the enemy.”
That’s definitely an issue, but I think that has more to do with church and individual dysfunction. Many churches are an all inclusive experience where many people’s entire connection to Christ and other believers is rooted in the church. If circumstances cause them to leave the church, their overdependence on the church for spirtual and social interaction leaves them totally alone and prone to enemy attack. Many churchgoers only interact with those in their church and treat those that leave their church as some kind of backsliding leper. That is the attitude that destroys.
June 7th, 2006 at 12:45 pm
The abreviation IC is for “Institutional Church” . At least that is what I use it for.
June 7th, 2006 at 6:14 pm
Fezzik - I see Paul’s (?) statement of “Forsake not the assembling…” as a command. However, this could look different than church: get togethers, small fellowships, home church, etc. However, the purpose of the assembling is:
And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
I think this to be the theme of this thread.
The example from the early church is clear: give resources so that there can be individuals in your assemly that can devote themselves to prayer and study. Give resources to this new organization so that people called deacons can minister to the needs of the community. Give resources so you can send people away to evangelize the far reaches of the earth.
OK, we are so far away from this. I know. So far that I am disgusted mst Sundays. But, I am unwilling to allow the mechanism of God’s love on the earth to be hijacked by individuals who do not have the “least of these mentality.” I attended a Wesleyan church that abandoned Wednesday services for the service Reformed Pope has called for. They went to jails, took cookies to neighbors, visited hospitals, did handyman work, etc. Every Wednesday, every week.
I am going to proclaim this message in the church until the church refocuses on what Jesus said to do. Or until they throw me out. Then some other pastor can get me as a blessing.
June 7th, 2006 at 6:18 pm
Thanks WHS - I couldn’t find it in my concordance:-)
June 7th, 2006 at 7:24 pm
That’s not a command to “go to church” … scripture NEVER uses the word “church” to refer to a building or a place people go … the ‘Church’ is people - greek word ‘ekklesia’ - and it means a “called out assembly” … what are the people called out of? The world. Who does the assembling? Man or Jesus? See 1 Peter 2:4-9.
If we view it as Jesus said - “Upon this rock, I will build (assemble) my Church”, and as Peter said it is assembled by Jesus, from us, as living stones, into a living / spiritual temple, then we are assembled whether we are physically together or not. Jesus does the assembling of us spiritually into a spiritual entity.
Lemme give you an example. When Karen and I moved to the midworst from Seattle, the Lord directed us to go to a dead, anti-charismatic, denominational IC. Karen and I have both had the baptism with/in the Holy Spirit, with several spiritual gifts. When we got to that IC the Lord directed us to, they asked as part of our application for membership what our spiritual gifts were … so we told them … and they soiled themselves. See, they don’t allow that in their church.
But they did tell us that our money was welcome, as were our musical talents. But as for that Holy Spirit stuff, we were to leave that at home.
Now IF you view what the Holy Spirit was making us into, spiritually, then that church was forsaking the assembling by NOT allowing us to be assembled with / into the body AS Christ had fashioned us. They were forsaking HIS assembly of Christ by rejecting the stones He had made us into. Remember that scripture that says “the stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone?” … That has been our experience too.
One of my dear old friends says about that ‘forsake not the assembling’ scripture, that IF the Sunday morning church hour is the “assembling” that scripture is talking about, and we’re not to forsake that assembling, then what is it when we leave the service and go home? Disassembly? And if we disassemble are we not forsaking the assembly?
…
I like where RP is going with the idea of service - just liberate that idea from the Sunday morning time-frame, and recognize we’re assembled, and in service to the King 24×7 and it’s a winner.
Jack
June 7th, 2006 at 8:39 pm
444 - theological psychobabble except for the last statement. Please remember that Paul (?) wrote to churches and individuals who did not have hammered out doctrines. He wrote to simple people. To say that the Hebrews quote really meant that the universal church should be assembled is out of context.
You are wrong - yes, I said it - wrong when you are discussing church. You said: “scripture NEVER uses the word “church” to refer to a building or a place people go.” Ok, technically you are right, but the local church goes to a building. I would hope noone here is referring to the wood or stone, but is referring to the local congregation. Scripture does clearly refer to the local church, and that is what this thread is addressing.
There seems to be an anti-local church sentiment here in all of these streams. I believe God works through the local church. If you want out, get out, but quit whining. RP is right, but who among those blogging here have done anything about it. All you have done is spout your theories about what you believe is right. I think Jesus called this a hypocrite. Yeah, I’m being judgemental, so you don’t have to remind me in your next blog. What a bunch of babies. I think Paul said you needed some milk. Waaaaaa!
By the way, your definition of church is remarkably similar to one of PFs sermons on the church last year. You seem to be conflicted. Can’t have it both ways 444. Yes, ‘ekklesia’ does mean called out, but has the distinction of referring to a geographical location. ‘ekklesia’ referred to leaders of a community that were “called out” for a purpose. Do you keep KFC buckets in your basement? There seems to be more jealousy here than action.
Quit bashing and get to work. There is little time left. (this is not referring to the rapture, but to the poor souls waiting for you to bring the reality of Jesus into their lives.)
OK, I have been less than charitable here, but this whole thread was getting a little boring and theological. I’m on your side 444. I hope that everyone gets mad enough to put their hand to the plow.
444- had the same experience in our little Wesleyan church. Soiled themselves they did. But after 8 years, they learned to respect our giftings even if they didn’t understand them. I was more patient with them because they were walking in all of the light they had. My new charismatic church would be so lucky. They have so much light.
Hospital update: arrived at the same time a head on collision victim arrived. Talked with family. Victim accepted the Lord. The Lord’s timing is perfect. I am humbled to be a part.
This was too long, even I think I’m boring.
Arcane thought: “Even a dog licks its paws to remove the burrs.”
June 8th, 2006 at 9:02 am
So I guess that means you are wrong too?
You do more twisting and turning than a screw … do you have threads?
I make no pretense of who I am on this board - my site is linked to my screen name above. Wanna know what I am doing AS the Church, then check out my site. But shove that judgmental / guilt-laden crap of yours back where it came from.
Jack
June 8th, 2006 at 2:59 pm
444- let me address your accusations individually
1. yes, i am wrong quite often. But these are things I am sure I should do even when I don’t feel like it - yes, they are works, but each has a foundational doctrine of scripture upholding it. I like to keep it simple
a. love people
b. give
c. pray
d. go to church
e. read the Bible
f. repent when I sin
I think you were referring to letter f. Yep, I can be wrong, but on these 6 simple actions I believe I am right on.
2. Do I have threads? - you bet, work, play, and Sunday.
Actually to answer your question, these are not simple questions posed on this blog, else it would be obvious to all what the solution might be. What I was trying to say was that the phrase “going to church” means as much “the local corporate body” as it does the building. In most people’s minds they cannot be seperated although there is clearly a distinction between the building, the local assembly, and the body of Christ, all being called the church. I hate parsing words so finely.
I really believe that I should be a part of all three. One is definitely a requirement of being a Christian. The attendance at a local assembly would not only seem to be the pattern of the early church, but be a command by the writer of Hebrews. It is an emphatic statement, much like “love one another.” As for the church, I don’t care, meet in a barn. It would seem to me that many of the arguments here on this blog surround the building and its use/misuse/management and not so much on the congregation.
3. You make no pretense? - Well, let’s see. I have downloaded your music. Nice folksy sound. But, how can you say the things you have in this blog and then promote dragging kids to Sunday school in your music. Doesn’t that seem a bit inconsistent. (I liked the song and thought it had a great message) Does that make me seem screwy? Probably. But I think it makes you have a pretense.
4. I should keep all that judgemental… - Yeah I am judgemental, and I probably should keep it, but that would make for a very boring blog. Waaaaaaaaait a minute, are you judging me for judging you? Oh no, now I’m judging you for judging me for judging you. I guess I have to go back to f. above. Sorry. You can’t see it right now, but my head is hanging low and my eyes are welling with tears.
5. I should keep all that guilt ridden ridden… - As I understand it, guilt is the internal dialogue an individual when they cannot rationalize their behavior with what they believe their moral code to be. So, it would seem you have been conversing with yourself. Don’t blame me. It came from you.
NOW FOR A COMMERCIAL BREAK
I just listened to Bumper Sticker Witness. (No sarcasm here.) I laughed myself silly. Been there. Nice transition at the end, very introspective. Check out John444’s site. Well done.
WE NOW RETURN TO OUR REGULARLY SCHEDULED BLOG
This little blog exchange is exactly why we need the church (local). I do not believe we would talk the way we do to one another if we were face to face seeing how our words hurt one another. It would change us, cause us to act differently, maybe even more Godly. But, if this blog were an indication of behavior, both Fezzik and John444 would have me out behind the parsonage beating the crap out of me.
Aaaaaaaaaah - Fire insurance was hilarious. Are you singing about yourself? “Man your gonna’ cook”, “man your gonna’ be fried.” Have you thought of Jamming with Reformed Pope.
So, may we agree to your final paragraph in your previous post, “recognize we’re assembled, and in service to the King 24×7.” Then do something about it?
June 8th, 2006 at 4:27 pm
Well, we haven’t had an obnoxious blogger dominating the blog for awhile….
June 8th, 2006 at 5:03 pm
Obnoxious yes, dominating no - more submissive
Hey, I just found you guys a few weeks ago. I am totally enjoying the conversation!
June 8th, 2006 at 5:12 pm
is that a sexual thing?
(sorry, couldn’t resist. had to lighten it up. you guys seem kind of, um, wound tight)
June 8th, 2006 at 5:21 pm
I can only hope. Let’s see what kind of games the wife wants to play tonight.
June 8th, 2006 at 5:38 pm
Pam, I regret not taking the opportunity to chat with you more at the Meet and Greet before you left. I enjoyed your article about the tatooed Christians. It so caught my attention that I read it in the actual newspaper.
Maybe we can do it again sometime.
And Arcane?- Ewww. TMI. You took Pam’s funny joke and you made it dirty. We don’t talk like that here.
And I do understand your enthusiasm about finding the blog.
June 8th, 2006 at 5:50 pm
Every once in awhile I have to explain the CD to someone who doesn’t ‘get it’ …
Like the web page says - and in the CD liner - the CD chronicles about 40+ years of my life - from the “go to church” and “go to sunday school” stage, to being fed up with it all falling at the feet of Jesus where it was simply: “Lord, all I want is YOU”. So you didn’t find a contradiction, you just zeroed in on the song that represents the first step of my journey.
…
As for further discussion, I agree with my sisters FFTM and pdxrn.
Jack
June 8th, 2006 at 6:01 pm
Back to the original post…Outstanding and inspired RP. You have really motivated me to look for ways I can implement those ideas in my own life. I truly want to do more than just nod my head and agree with you. I’ve started looking around for service opportunities that I can do with my 7 year old son, because I don’t want him “raised in the church” the way I was. To be totally honest, it has only been in the last few years that I have realized what Jesus was really all about. And I really want to follow His example. My journey continues…and I really want to thank RP and Catalyst and many of the other bloggers here who have contributed to it.
June 8th, 2006 at 7:28 pm
So encourage me. What are the readers of this blog doing to fulfill RPs Great Commission! I would really like to hear.
June 8th, 2006 at 9:18 pm
This blog is not for encouragement; it’s for ridicule. Dumbass.
June 8th, 2006 at 10:00 pm
thanks pdxrn. appreciate the kind words and that you liked the article.
i’m a staff writer for off the map. you might like them. check it out at www.off-the-map.org (i am totally html illiterate)
June 9th, 2006 at 3:09 am
Unscrupulous - Thanks - I feel encouraged already
June 9th, 2006 at 8:39 am
Thanks so much for the link, Pam. Looks like a really neat site. Can’t wait to start exploring it.
June 15th, 2006 at 2:41 pm
Reformed Pope,
Sounds like a great idea and I appreciate the fact that you are thinking out of the box, raising questions, etc. There are those who are dissatified with what exists but are unwilling to leave the comfort zone. I guess my only problem with your idea is that it would A: become another program or B: You’d become a lone ranger and drift off into the netherlands
The fact is that service is great. Serve others with all your heart and as the spirit leads (Ugh, another Christian clique, I’m trying to kick that habit:-( Jesus served others a lot but he didn’t start a service ritual or an organization. Also, his service didn’t replace relationship by any means. He walked were his Father walked and served who His Father wanted him to serve. Sometimes he walked by someone who needed healing and went off to the mountains to spend time alone with God. I guess what I am trying to say is, there’s no formula. You just have to go with God. (More Christianese:-( I have to throw it in there, or y’all wouldn’t understand me)
I’ve been all over the map as far as religion is concerned. I’ve attended conventional churches and been totally aligned with God. I’ve been unconventional places and been out of whack, and vise versa.
“Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is Liberty”.
Don’t be entangled with manipulative, oppresseve religion. Build friendships with sincere followers of Jesus and stick close to them. Be honest with people about who you are and be honest with God about who you are.
“But we all with unveiled face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.”
Where people are there are problems. We’ve all got issues. But one man’s issues should not define 10,000 people. If all 10,000 people really knew PF the man, do you think they would follow him? These religious games require dishonesty.
Gotta keep up the facade to keep the ship running. It’s such a natural human defense mechanism to hide who we really are. God isn’t watching the show. God doesn’t care about the budget or the children’s ministry or PF’s reputation or mine. OK, I’m speaking for God here, this is pretty scary, but I think I can safely say, God just wants us. All of us.
PS The money that was given to the apostles in the NT was distributed to the POOR, not wealthy organizations! Nothing in the NT says “give to your local church”. It just says GIVE. Believe it or not, it’s OK to be directed by the Spirit of God in your giving as well as other parts of your life.
June 15th, 2006 at 2:53 pm
Sorry, I didn’t mean to make such a wordy comment.
June 15th, 2006 at 6:34 pm
A valid one.
These religious games require dishonesty.
Religion BOOOOOOO
Personnal Faith HURRRRAAAAAAY!
June 15th, 2006 at 7:06 pm
I echo your sentiments, to do what we see our Father doing and to say what we hear him saying.
But, I must admit, I’m not on all the time. Sometimes I get crabby or depressed, tired or impatient. I have learned that this is when I need the encouragement of the body of Christ.
I do many of the things RP listed above. But, I do them better and with a full heart with someone along side me. This takes organization.
I have never expected my leaders to be perfect. When I sense a facade, I get nervous. Just give me what is real no matter what it looks like.
Last night we had our once a month fellowship dinner at church so we were not at the hospital. We did the cutesy devotional. I added my two cents as usual. But the real ministry was afterward. For an hour, a woman new to the church sobbed her heart out over the death of her son. I didn’t care that tables were being cleared, chairs stacked, and tables put away. I needed to be the ears of Christ; just listening to how badly she missed her son and how badly it hurt. I didn’t need to say much. I didn’t need to pray about what to say. But only to say, “I am so sorry,” and let her talk and cry and hold her hand. It was the most spiritual moment of the week for me. And, I believe Jesus was present in it.
This woman came to the church looking for hope and comfort. With all of its imperfections, I am glad we were there grilling burgers and eating pork-n-beans. I hope and pray that she is beginning to find comfort and peace in her loss.
June 15th, 2006 at 7:07 pm
Sorry for the long post, I needed a little personal therapy time there.
June 15th, 2006 at 7:58 pm
Arcane Warrior,
Please don’t misunderstand me, I’m not saying we don’t need eachother. What I’m saying is that we meet eachother’s needs (better perhaps) without an organizational structure. For instance, that incedent you described probably would not have happened if there had been a big program that someone was stuck on. I’m saying the church is people and if we have our heads in a program there’s no room for anyone to be real, there’s no room to grow and there’s no room for what happened last week. Wouldn’t it be great if what you experience there was all there was to church meetings. If there were no obligatory songs, devotions, prayers? What if the assembly were just people interacting, truly interacting, with God and eachother? This might take a little “organization” perhaps but I say organization in it’s real sense, not in the way it is culturally defined. I am convinced that when money gets tied up into it, it starts going downhill. That’s just the way people are. The struggle for power starts at that point.
June 15th, 2006 at 8:24 pm
now were getting somewhere
thanks for that comment p o d
Are we so ancient in thinking that we can not multi-task the advantages of christ’s people
If you want to sing, go to the sancturary. (freestyle… w/DJ of course)
if you want to cry out loud to god, go to the searching room.
if you are hungry and have no place to sleep, have a cup of soup some bread and tea and have a nap over night in the recieving hall
whatever
the point is the church/WE, have/has/is failing to come up to par with the “worldly” place we know as the HOSPITAL
we have accepted that their are people better trained to treat circumstances due to pain, better than people filled with Christs’ love.
(yes those weird “followers of Christ” that were against med’s were wacko’s)
we in the faith have done it to ourselves
We need some real tangible mediums to fully see how gods people can help/heal/save others
1. help
2. heal
3. save
vs.
1. dress appropriately
2. smell middle income
3. save
June 16th, 2006 at 2:32 am
POD - I think I would have liked your family. Thanks for the comment.
We are all about the informal, God appointed moments. Normally we are at the hospital on Wednesdays spending time with the sick and praying for their comfort, peace, and healing. The vast majority of these people we have never met. But, we have seen miracles, very quiet, subtle miracles. Mostly, we are there to bring a smiling face, iisten to a story and bring the comfort of Jesus in a time of need.
We were asked by one of our pastors why we did not attend Wed church. (We are leaders and all.) We explained that we weren’t getting much from sitting in another service, but that there were people out there who needed Jesus’ comfort. Just two weeks ago, we were surprised with ministerial credentials from the church. (It came with a clergy parking pass too).
I am convinced, that when we do the REAL work of the ministry, the church organization can only shut their mouths and watch.
Let’s do the work no matter what the setting.
Arcane Warrior’s real motivation for going to church: It’s the only place that I know of other than hospital or jail where we congregate enough hurting people together that my odds are pretty good in doing some real ministry.
Now I have friends there, and the blessings that I pour out, get poured back. Yeah, most of my friends are the 0=outcasts of the church, but they are real friends.
June 16th, 2006 at 2:33 am
Michael - learn from my mistake. Do not forsake the use of the b-quote. Touch not the [Quote this comment] link. Lest you should fall under the wrath of those who mus scroll too far.
June 16th, 2006 at 5:49 am
Blah blah blah … watch me comment after every post … blah blah blah …
June 16th, 2006 at 5:51 am
That is very funny. Let me not disappoint.
June 16th, 2006 at 11:44 am
Now you’re talking my language AW. Or should I call you A&W.
June 16th, 2006 at 12:52 pm
A & W? It’s been a long day. Help me out a little. A & W?
June 16th, 2006 at 2:02 pm
Wow, I just realized, I’m Pod that could be pod as in i pod or POD that band that used to be really cool until they sold out. I actually met them when they were just a little local band and then I saw them doing rock the party on Jay Leno. Oh well…
June 16th, 2006 at 2:09 pm
Oh by the way, A&W, regarding your comment about, when we do the REAL work of the ministry, all the church organizations can do is shut their mouths and watch, (I didn’t quote your entire comment, aren’t you proud) that only worked for Jesus, the apostles, Stephen, for a very short time. Prepare to be crucified.
June 16th, 2006 at 2:22 pm
I am prepared. I’ve blogged on this before.
I fully expect at some point, they will ask me to leave. Until then, I keep talking, walking, and making a nuisance of myself. I have to say, I admire the integrity and strenght in which your Dad walked. I sometimes cave on my convictions.
July 5th, 2006 at 7:29 pm
A & W? As in…. the soft drink?
July 5th, 2006 at 7:42 pm
Although I understand the basis on which most of these comments stand, it seems like most of you are taking this as an either/or situation. Actually, thats not how it’s supposed to be at all. Church has always been to me a place to get refilled from serving peole 6 days a week and regroup from battling with an unseen enemy. I can’t understand how you could survive wihout some sort of rejuvination. Unless of course, you arent actually fighting or serving. Then there wouldnt be much to refill and regroup, now, would there? It hardly seems acceptable to say that the hospital is your church, though I agree with the spirit behind that AW and am just using it for a case in pointe. A hospital is not where you can recieve the peace and fellowship that accompanies a properly run church.
How can you serve when your spiritual gas tank is empty?
July 5th, 2006 at 8:34 pm
What about the weekly church gathering recharges your spiritual batteries? Is it the worship? The sermon? Or something else? A church is just a building. It’s the people that are THE church, so wherever and whenever you meet with fellow believers becomes your church. I would argue that if you find it necessary to attend a traditional sunday church service to get “spiritually recharged”, that is just your spiritual crutch. Fellowship with other believers is a great way to spiritually recharge, but nowhere does it say that you must do that in the confines of church.
I’d also like to know where you get off saying non-church goers aren’t fighting and serving God. Arrogant statements like that are what led me away from churches and the underlying elitist attitudes many of them breed.
July 6th, 2006 at 6:47 am
Yeah, Exactly what Fez said.
It’s obvious to me that YOU, Listening for the Call, have never served with other Christians outside a church (building) setting. If you had, you would know that the above statement is not true.
July 6th, 2006 at 8:07 am
Listening for the call: Do you get the impression that Jesus was “spiritually recharged” by going to the temple?
I totally agree with A&W and the Pope.
July 6th, 2006 at 8:55 am
Let me address our hard of hearing listening for the call.
As much as you have done it for the least of these, my brothers, you have done it to me.
Last night my wife and I visited 41 people in the hospital. There were a few very significant interactions, most were times of encouragement and prayer, but one stood out.
In the detox area we came across a young woman who had recently been saved, but saved out of a life of witchcraft. She was broken and hurting, having failed again at getting cleaned up. She knew that God is mighty to help her, but she knew firsthand the power of the enemy. There was a part of her that was ready to go back, to give up, to relinquish the faith that was purchased for her at so high a price.
Meanwhile, the message last night at the church service that we blew off, was on getting people to commit to serving others in the Lord. It was an anointed message. I know this because people were still milling around the church talking about it afterward. While the “faithful” nodded their ascent to the sermon, a Lutheran man turned his faith toward Jesus for the first time, a converted witch sanctified her life for the Lord, a wife of 62 years is comforted even though her husband lay in ICU on a vent. Tell me? Who had church? Who was encouraged? Who was filled? Where was Jesus’ heart?
It may be time for you to open your eyes as well as your ears. Look around. There is a world of hurt out there that is rarely met inside the walls of the church. Take a risk. You might find that the life you are living now disgusts you once you learn how to serve.
Welcome to the blog LFTC. Don’t get your feelings hurt. Iron sharpens iron you know. Oh, and batteries are on sale at Fred Myer’s for that spiritual hearing aid of yours. You may need to pick up an extra set.
July 6th, 2006 at 9:16 am
A&W, I wanted to also address that there are some who simply are not in a place to minister. I lost my husband a year ago and my dad two months ago. I am in a place of receiving from God. However, I generally don’t get much from an orchastrated “church” meeting. I do attend a home fellowship where I get encouragement and friendship though there is almost more organization there than I can stomach. I put on an old Bob Dylan albumn this morning and danced with my 2 year-old and 11 month-old. It was a greater spiritual recharge than a million sermons.
July 6th, 2006 at 11:10 am
Oh my goodness. You have been hit hard. I am so sorry for you. Single parenting is tough. I only had to do it for a couple years and then remarried. Thank God he brought the right someone along at the right time for me.
Of course, of course, of course. Your children are your focus, faith, and future. And God is in it all. I pray for your strength, your joy, and for time for yourself. These are going to be years that you won’t trade for anything. I know I won’t trade mine, hard as they were.
My irreverance is directed toward those who talk a good game, but are too yellow to put their faith and themselves at any risk. You know who you are.
You just did - to your two little ones, and to me. Thanks for the encouragement. He is with you.
July 6th, 2006 at 2:03 pm
That’s funny you say that. We just got back from a short trip to see KK’s mom on the other side of the state … on the sign board of a Lutheran church in Gibson City, IL, was the words:
Running on empty?
Stop in
Get filled up.
Being ever-reverent, I asked Karen what she thought the church secretary, staff or pastor would do if I stopped in unannounced on a Tuesday afternoon and said “I’m here for a fill up” …
I bet they’d soil their ephods.
Truth is, they are utterly powerless to dispense a measure of of “God” as if he is a commodity, or dispensible, or they have any influence / control whatsoever over the distribution of God.
Needless to say, I stopped at a Casey’s for a slurpee instead.
July 8th, 2006 at 7:11 pm
“A hospital is not where you can recieve the peace and fellowship that accompanies a properly run church.”
A “properly run church” is situational based off of what you have been involved in. Your properly run church would be great for you. But empty, like many, I suspect.
Comments like this one you made Call, are what give non-attenders the impression that the whole idea of churchs, is merely institutional and based on comfort levels rather than based on a search for a new closeness to the creator.
P.S. And I try to stay away from christ-speak CAll because it tends to mold my words into a cute little appropriate packages, rather than thoughts revealed.
What people are seeking are new truths and they want to be close to god along the way.
The current Chrisitan church seems to counteract this idea by constantly denying proven truths and at the same time, demanding that to be close to the “only true god” you have to be fit/or proper enough to interact with these folks at your “properly run church”.
People have the internet now. People travel. People arent idiots. We all know churchs were community centers long ago. Now they are basicly skeltons of old thought. Not very interesting to young people seeking new closeness.
ciao
July 10th, 2006 at 5:20 am
I think the bigger picture you are missing roots right in the s of truths. There is ONE Truth. Fine, get close all you want, but I think what you people are seeking are new hypes and want to be close to god along the way.
Ah. I understand now.
`
Hype away.
August 28th, 2007 at 4:52 am
Can I have you permission to repost this on another site? I have had issues with these same things… and I want other people I know to think about it as well.
August 28th, 2007 at 7:37 am
Go for it.
August 29th, 2007 at 3:09 am
Very good original post…glad it was burped.
And BTW, I’m in.
-joe