The Problem Defined
Posted on June 9th, 2006 by Reformed Pope into the Comments From Others category
A friend recently sent me a link to a website called IX Marks. While I haven't had a chance to read through and find out exactly what they are about, I did enjoy their article defining "the problem". Here's what they had to say: The Problem Defined The church has come to reflect her culture rather than to shape it. The leadership principles of corporate America have made their way into church leadership meetings. The consumerism of suburban malls has infiltrated ministry methods. The therapeutic model of secular counseling has found a comfortable place on the couch in the pastor's office. And the sins that typify the culture all too often scandalize the church. We believe this situation has come about because modern church practices have been gradually redefining the spiritual understanding of Americans. In the evangelistic quest to "be all things to all people," many churches have become "audience-driven," "seeker-sensitive" and full-service. In the ecumenical quest for unity, many churches have preferred to see doctrine evaporate rather than elucidate. At first blush, these appear to be worthy goals and promising methods. But too often we have assumed that the church must resemble the culture in order to attract it. And so we let modern methods and mores determine church methods, dressing the church in the mirror of the culture and standing the Bride of Christ on culture's corner. The bottom line leaves the church indebted to the culture for both strategy and direction, which leads her into unhealthy compromise that subtly replaces sound teaching with management theory and biblical morality with circumstantial ethics. As a result, a new perception of religion has quietly become the status quo: a customized faith which makes meeting personal needs the Golden Rule while minimizing commitments to God and others. The consumerism and theological vacuity that so permeate the culture have now penetrated and pervaded the church. This is why we believe that Christian churches are leading an exercise in cultural accommodation and, in some cases, even surrender. While many churches affirm their belief in God, they look more like the culture than the Christ. Pastors bear a great deal of responsibility for these developments, often abdicating their role as filters for the church and acting instead as conduits for the culture. The result is the steep decline of holiness that is apparent even among many so-called conservative churches.
RSS feed for posts
June 9th, 2006 at 8:14 am
bah. This is not a new argument. I’ve been hearing this for years. The way I see it there are two types of pastors: Mr. “hell and brimstone” and Mr. “Look how hip I am”.
It always ended up with statements like “be in the world, not OF the world”, “Drums in the church are the devil”, “Women cannot be in leadership”,”No earrings!”. All of which lost their steroypes and became acceptable.
Every church that hears this never gets it. The “hell and brimstone” guy will condem anything “modern” and turn away any new converts and new Christians because he doesn’t have love, and can’t tolerate anything different than what he belives to be “holy”. The “hip” guy will stand at the pulpit holding his Starbucks showing how relevent he is, without realizing that he would be so much more effective acctually IN a Starbucks….
What they need to hear is “Get out of church, and be a Church”.
But maybe that’s just me…
June 9th, 2006 at 9:42 am
The problem with the “hip” pastor is they are usually trying way too hard. And they always seem so phony.
I am not impressed by Pastors. And I am not impressed by Church. Christians need to stop identifying themselves through institutions and instead start identifying themselves through actions. Preferrably the action of Love.
Second, I am tired of this emphasis on Holiness. Christ was asked to sum up the law and all his teachings, and he didn’t say holiness. He said, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself.”
It’s not about being Holy, it’s about loving people. And the sooner the Church realizes this, the sooner people will start to listen to them.
June 9th, 2006 at 10:51 am
Wow?
Good comment.
June 9th, 2006 at 11:01 am
Amen, Catalyst.
The truth in this article has seriously unfortunate implications for Americans and for far too many nations and people groups that American missionaries try to convert. All too often missionaries preach an American culture Gospel instead of a pure Bible Gospel. Talk about wicked, arrogant and self-absorbed. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
June 9th, 2006 at 12:29 pm
Cat, I think James, sums it up pretty good when he says that true religion is to look after orphans and widows and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.
Here are two examples of loving people, followed by a call to holiness( some may say a call to love God), they are not at odds with one another. It is natural for us to want to keep the two apart because on our own and in our own stregnth and ability we can do loving acts for people and serve them, but holiness, keeping oneself unspotted from the world is an offensive command because that is something we cannot do on our own and we see our guilt and need of God’s grace and mercy so it is a very humbling ( at least should be) command. You find these two thoughts running throughout scripture.
“What God has joined together let no man seperate.” I know that this verse in context speaks directly towards marriage and divorce, but it’s principle speaks to a wider subject matter as well.
Sorry I could make it to Kells I was working till midnight that night, hope to see you next time your in town.
Later Justin
Jeremiah
June 9th, 2006 at 12:58 pm
Thank you!
June 9th, 2006 at 1:01 pm
I have finally lost interest in this place. However my kids love it so I am staying for now. I really lost it when the Measure 36 Gay marriage ban was being promoted in my churc. It was icky and hateful. However, the advocates promised they would never stand in the way of a Civil Union so gays would have full access to government benefits. Well, that was a lie and member Karen Minnis assured the public of it. She is a big fat liar. She blocked any attempt to vote on any gay legislation in the last session, whatsoever.
I guess I am looking more for the affirmations of Christian faith versus culture. Bigotry doesn’t fit my mold. A great way of summing up many of the feelings is taken from the Author of the Phoenix Affirmations. In short,
Affirmation 1. Walking fully in the path of Jesus, without denying the legitimacy of other paths God may provide humanity.
Affirmation 2. Listening for God’s Word, which comes through daily prayer and meditation, through studying the ancient testimonies which we call Scripture, and through attending to God’s present activity in the world.
Affirmation 3. Celebrating the God whose Spirit pervades and whose glory is reflected in all of God’s Creation, including the earth and its ecosystems, the sacred and secular, the Christian and non-Christian, the human and non-human.
Affirmation 4. Expressing our love in worship that is as sincere, vibrant, and artful as it is scriptural.
Affirmation 5. Engaging people authentically, as Jesus did, treating all as creations made in God’s very image, regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, age, physical or mental ability, nationality, or economic class.
Affirmation 6. Standing, as Jesus does, with the outcast and oppressed, the denigrated and afflicted, seeking peace and justice with or without the support of others.
Affirmation 7. Preserving religious freedom and the Church’s ability to speak prophetically to government by resisting the commingling of Church and State.
Affirmation 8. Walking humbly with God, acknowledging our own shortcomings while honestly seeking to understand and call forth the best in others, including those who consider us their enemies.
Affirmation 9. Basing our lives on the faith that, in Christ, all things are made new, and that we, and all people, are loved beyond our wildest imagination – for eternity.
Affirmation 10. Claiming the sacredness of both our minds and our hearts, recognizing that faith and science, doubt and belief serve the pursuit of truth.
Affirmation 11. Caring for our bodies, and insisting on taking time to enjoy the benefits of prayer, reflection, worship and recreation in addition to work.
Affirmation 12. Acting on the faith that we are born with a meaning and purpose; a vocation and ministry that serves to strengthen and extend God’s realm of love.
Thanks for the vent space.
June 9th, 2006 at 1:09 pm
So today I’m driving in to work listening to one PFs sermons. (Yeah, skewer me!) My blackberry goes off and I grab it figuring it is one of my co-workers who can’t find the power button on their computer. (I know, using the crackberry and driving is much worse than talking on the phone and driving, but at least I wasn’t drinking coffee too)
When suddenly I drop a load in my pants and nearly wreck my truck when I see that the sender is Frank Damazio and he is agreeing with my criticism of an overpriced worship conference currently touring the country.
Thanks alot RP
June 9th, 2006 at 2:41 pm
The Beatles were right. All you need is love.
June 9th, 2006 at 5:43 pm
Arcane,
Are you telling me that the pastor who you are sticking around in hopes to influence is Frank Damazio? Why suffer any longer? Set yourself free because he isn’t at all interested in being influenced. He is interested in being agreed with, deferred to, and affirmed. What you are putting yourself through isn’t worth it because he is closed to contrary input. It’s his way or the highway. He’s proven it over and over and over and over and over. Why do you think he will let you influence him? Just curious. No judgment, trust me, I’m well acquainted with sticking around much longer than I should in a relationship or group because I hold out hope that I can change people…it just very rarely happens that way.
Matrix
June 9th, 2006 at 5:49 pm
The IX Marks site is an incredible read for something created by an IC. But, it would appear that they have “rediscovered” vital truth.
There is a special “weekender” conference in September in DC. Cost is $125 and includes 5 meals and your materials. I knew it, they’ve come up with a way to gouge the hard working Christian for a bit of truth.
But wait, they adhere to a “whatever-you-can-afford” policy. Keith Green, is that you?
Forget it, truly spiritual conferences cost way more anyway. I’m so disappointed. How can you gain a harvest if you are not willing to sow alot of
greedseed?Plus, God could never work through a bunch of Baptists. They don’t even speak in tongues for cripes sake.
June 9th, 2006 at 5:57 pm
FFTM - No, I don’t live close enough to attend. Fricken RP is using an email address with the display name FRANK DEMAZIO.
I listen to his messages because I have family out there. My church bows to no one but Brother Hagin. All hail!
June 10th, 2006 at 8:05 am
Baptist’s getting jealous of Evangelicals? No way!
More “leaders” trying to sell taboos and books, I think.
I think I recal a verse about plucking eyeballs which would be appropriate in this situation.
This does hit on a nerve, but quickly becomes just another vague interpretation of one church’s philosophy on what the Bible is telling us. Maybe they are trying for the best…
Maybe they should boycat Wal-Mart. That’ll work, right.
Maybe we should invite them into dialogue?
Yes, that last one seems positive.
June 10th, 2006 at 11:44 am
I knew the Baptist comment would take this way off track.
June 11th, 2006 at 10:05 am
Lord You are My righteousness
Lord You are My holiness
Nothing I can do is worthy
Of your name
Lord I would be lost without you
Clothed in shame …
June 11th, 2006 at 10:56 am
Didn’t I become holy when I got saved?
He is my righteousness.
Glad you had a safe trip Jack
June 12th, 2006 at 8:01 am
Yes, we become holy when we get saved, and Christ is our righteousness. That is imputed righteousness, and our only grounds of acceptance before God.
What I was getting at is our call to be holy, walk uprightly, keep ourselves unspotted from the world, a christians responsalility to conduct themselves in a manner worthyof the gospel of Christ. All of this can make no one more wothy before God than another. Yet we are called to persue it.
I know that in legalistic churches they confuse and mix together imputed righteousness ( Christs’ perfection given to us freely) with a christians call to personal holiness. So as to leave the congregation feeling that their actions merit acceptance and favor before the Lord. This is a damn shame, a damn shame say I.
But this is no excuse to cast off personal holiness and a believers need of repentance.
” Could my tears forever flow, could my zeal no langour know,
These for sin could not atone-Thou must save and Thou alone:
In my hand no price I bring, Simply to Thy cross I cling.”
June 12th, 2006 at 1:34 pm
I have walked the holiness walk. I choose to follow Jesus. I am more free and more holy and do more good than ever in my life. I see your point, but many mistake personal acts of holiness with a relationship with Jesus far too often.
In my experience, those churches that preach holiness end up sacrificing grace in the process. I say to them, preach on, but preach grace all the more.
June 13th, 2006 at 1:43 pm
I have to agree with b9000 a bit, and say that I cringed when I read their “solution” to the problem. It’s not to say they don’t have a valid point in their appraisal, but I don’t agree with the idea that conforming to your culture to impact it is an inherently bad idea. Paul said he was all things to everyone, but also that he preached nothing but “Christ and Him crucified”. Too often people misunderstand the meaning of “Be in the world, but not of it.” They confuse cultural issues with spiritual issues, and errors are made on both sides. The conservatives improperly condemn cultural values that have no spiritual meaning and the hipsters improperly sacrifice truth for relevance. I think there is a neutral middle ground, where you can be both culturally relevant and spiritually grounded.
June 15th, 2006 at 8:32 pm
diddo
and culturally relevant means?
June 16th, 2006 at 3:05 am
Ok, Michael, I am going to just assume you had a bad night last night.
Culturally relevant means to attain secret cult like status while enabling your followers to maintain their current employment in order to
titheshare their resources.June 16th, 2006 at 10:07 am
got it -_-
June 16th, 2006 at 12:56 pm
Sorry Mike, very early this morning when I wrote that. The HS doesn’t usually start to convict me until after the first cup of coffee. Until then, its all flesh.