Can Christians Suffer?
Posted on July 10th, 2006 by catalyst into the Uncategorized categoryReader, Listening for the Call, makes the following prevocative statement:
A person with Christ cannot suffer. It just can’t happen. In a true relationship with Christ, there is no room for suffering. He is my hedge, He is my protection, my joy, my comfort, and IN HIM, I have peace. How can joy and suffering coincide? In circumstance, they can, but in the psyche, and this is what is being debated, we cannot. How can you be depressed and abundantly happy at the same time? You can’t.
That being said, If you are suffering, you cannot possibly have a personal relationship with Christ, and, from my perspective and in my expirience, the only thing that hinders my walk with Christ is Sin.
I cannot really hear the Lord’s voice when I am having a bad attitude with my boss or having a less-than-helpful attitude while working. I cannot really feel his peace when I’m just doing things half-way or not loving people to the best of my ability. I cannot expirience his amazing Joy when I’m too busy to notice his longing for my attention once again.
These are my personal most common sins right now, but even so, are they not just as bad to God as if I were Stealing, killing and destroying? With Sin out of they way, my heart is right and even though, circumstantially, I have every right to say “I AM SUFFERING!!!!”, I don’t need to, because I am truely not. I have Him.
FICM responds:
You may feel that your walk with Christ helps you get through your own problems and suffering to the point where it doesn’t seem so bad to you. But to imply that Christians shouldn’t suffer, and by doing so, also imply that they are somehow inferior for not transcending above them is ludicrous and condescending.
Any thoughts from our readers.
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July 10th, 2006 at 7:15 am
LFTC is contradicting herself. Take a look a little farther up that thread…
Even a person with Christ still sins. Then, according to the quotes above, that causes suffering. So where does this fit?
FICM had some great Scriptures that contradict this, but I’d like to throw in the book of Job. That whole book contradicts the notion that walking with God equals no more suffering. I’d say losing your family, home, possessions, and being covered with boils falls under suffering.
July 10th, 2006 at 8:05 am
The first problem is that you are basing doctrine on your “perspective” and “experience” rather than on the Word of God. Let’s see SOME of what the Bible says about suffering:
Luke 9:22: “The Son of Man must suffer many things…”
Romans 8:17: “…and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.”
1 Corinthians 12:26: “And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.”
Philippians 1:29: “For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake…”
Philippians 3:8: “More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ…”
Hebrews 5:8: “Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.”
1 Peter 2:20: “For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.”
These are just a few verses on suffering I found in a quick search. There are numerous others that also address suffering. Clearly, suffering is part of life…the Bible presumes this. Some suffering comes from our own sin, some directly from another’s sin, some because we are Christians, and some for other reasons God determines. The Lord works in us to yield amazing fruit and gifts because of the suffering we endure, whether at our own hands, the hands of others, or just through living in a sinful, fallen world.
The ignorance of the philosophy LFTC sets forth is astounding. Christ suffered; who are we to think we will not suffer. Yes, his suffering resulted in reconciling mankind to God; ours will not. However, it will yeild results; the kind of results will be determined by our own response to our suffering.
Jesus does not promise the absence of suffering, the absence of pain, the absence of disappointment, discouragement, or anything else negative; he actually promises that we WILL have such things in this world. The question is: will we run to Him when we are hurt or will we shake our fists at Him? Will we choose to be honest and admit our pain, and ask Him to heal it and use it, or will we deny it and harden our hearts?
The root of legalism is the insane belief that people can earn their salvation, but in terms of living on this earth, the root is that people can guarantee happiness and insulate themselves from pain through their behavior. Not true. The Bible exposes this lie completely.
OK, enough from me for now. My verbosity is kicking in because this is the kind of nonsense that just incenses me.
Matrix
July 10th, 2006 at 8:15 am
First, let’s separate two separate things.
Suffering -
1)To feel pain or distress; supreme unhappiness or discontentment; {That would be what I call the psychological suffering}
2)To tolerate or endure evil, injury, pain, or death {That would be what I call the circumstantial suffering}
Yes, sin causes suffering circumstantially. When you sin, you create unpleasant situations for yourself and those around you. HOWEVER, all circumstantial suffering (i.e. loss of job for the head of household) need not be psychological (i.e. becoming worried, stressed, depressed, anxious, angry, victimized etc. because of the job situation). The reason for this - the ONLY reason for this - is because the joy and the peace of Christ is suffient. To have this peace, one must cast those cares. To be able to cast the cares, one must have a trust in Christ. To truely and fully trust in Christ, you must have a deep, unsurpassing, intimate one-on-one relationship. (How can you trust someone truely and fully unless you truely and fully know them? -and that’s know THEM, not OF them.) To develope a deep, unsurpassing, intimate one-on-one relationship, you must have a right standing with Christ, and it is impossible to be in right standing with Christ in Sin. He is light. Light and darkness do not mix.
Well, now that we’ve covered that, let’s move on to Job:
Firstly, Job suffered circumstantially, but through it all he had joy and faith in God. And his faith brought him not only through his situation but with abudance afterward. I believe that Job knew his faith would be honored and this in itself created a peace of knowing where he stood in God.
Secondly, this book of Job, though it doesn’t really say when this all happened, was before Christ. Therefore, it is part of the Old Covenant and is not necessarily a good proof of how God looks at us today. For instance, when God says, “Have you condsidered my servant, Job?”, he means little more than a faithful servant. This is not how God views us today. Through the blood of Christ, though we are to have a heart of a servant towards others, we are now more than hired help; We are his children, the bride of Christ, which is considerably more intimate. So, considering Job did not have the opprotunity to create this intimate relationship, he was not a child, albeit a good servant. For this reason primarily, I am always catious about using Old Testament examples when trying to apply the Bibl eto everyday life, because while God is still God, his attitude seems to has changed toward his people through Christ.
In conclusion, suffering, as in “to feel pain or distress or supreme unhappiness…”, is impossible to the true believer.
Secondly, your example sucks.
July 10th, 2006 at 8:18 am
I’m suffering through this discussion, so I’d say yes, Christians can suffer.
July 10th, 2006 at 8:24 am
go get Jesus, then.
July 10th, 2006 at 9:23 am
Now you’re just playing semantics. What you term as “circumstantial suffering” is what 99% of people considers suffering and what I believe is suffering. Your “psychological suffering” is merely a decision to bear the suffering and trust God to see us through it, not another form of suffering. Since we are imperfect, no one can be a 100% “true believer” and fully eliminate “psychological suffering. Assuming that is attainable is another example of an elitist “better Christian = less/no suffering” mindset.
That’s not correct. Job never cursed God, but he spent much of the book questioning why God was tormenting a righteous man while his friends told him he’s suffering because he was a horrible sinner. Job only opened his eyes and repented after God personally appeared to him in a whirlwind and called him out for questioning the wisdom of God. I would encourage you to actually read the book of Job for yourself because I don’t think you’ve read it all the way through if that’s the conclusion you’ve reached.
My example sucks? Your momma….
July 10th, 2006 at 10:08 am
all right. Regardless of whether or not Job blah blah blahed, it’s still OT. Read above. Eh. I’m getting bored with this topic.
July 10th, 2006 at 10:22 am
LFTC,
I don’t even understand how you can defend your position here, even with the semantic trickery. As others have pointed out, your example of Job contradicts your theory, as Job’s friends subscribed to your philosophy of “if you were righteous you wouldn’t be suffering”. Job’s defense was that he had done nothing wrong and he was still suffering! When God finally speaks, he very bluntly tells Job “Who are you to question me? I can do what I want.” Once His sovereignty was clear, He also showed Job what a gracious and compassionate God He was and restored Job completely. My own opinion of this tale is that we should remember that we are but the lowly created mortal beings of the Supreme Being, and if He chooses a time of suffering for us, who are we to question Him?
The Psalms are full of sorrow and lament about how David and others complained to God about the seeming injustice and sorrow and suffering in their lives. I think those passages are there to remind us that God is OK with us expressing our emotions during times of suffering - so much so that it is encouraged by canonizing those thoughts in scripture. What better way to validate the idea that God understands our needs and emotions and wants us to express them, than by having entire chapters of “songs” dedicated to the topic?
I have extensive experience with charismatic churches who preach this kind of hyperspiritual bullcrap (one of them being CBC), where negative emotions are a sign of spiritual weakness. The end result is a lot of oppressed people with a lot of repressed emotions about life - they are constantly in denial about their own feelings about themselves and God and others, to the point that they can no longer function like a “normal” person. I watched helplessly as a close friend of mine at CBC (who was a leader and a PBC graduate) suffered a nervous and mental breakdown because this kind of thinking was so entrenched in his brain that he couldn’t cope with his own sense of failure and negative emotions. It was a vicious circle that we couldn’t save him from and it literally destroyed his life. His own family was (and perhaps still is) in denial about their son’s inability to cope with life, and wouldn’t lift a finger to help him in spite of the fact that he nearly became homeless and/or committed to a mental institution, because “real Christians don’t suffer”. Even in my own life, it took me a good year or two to become purged of that thinking after I left CBC, and so I can’t help but feel terribly angry and even combatant about people who still cling to this kind of thinking, because of the many lives it has hurt.
On the other hand, I do also believe to endure suffering with a sense of joy and closeness to God that transcends the suffering itself, but that does not cause me to think for a moment that my suffering has ended.
July 10th, 2006 at 10:24 am
Dear LFTC,
Paul had a very mature perspective on the matter in II Cor. 4:7-18, which I will not quote here. It starts out, “We have this treasure in earthen vessels….”
The treasure — the presence of Christ — is perfect, but we are not. Even the Lord Jesus experienced pain and suffering when He came in the likeness of men (Phil. 2:5-13) in an earthen vessel.
That is being human, and we learn obedience through suffering (Heb. 5:8). It is the way of the Cross.
To say:
is to bring condemnation on those who are suffering. Romans 8 directly addresses this. Paul shows that it is not a matter of either/or … but both/and. We have suffering AND we have the love of Christ.
Rom. 8:37: “Yet in all these things [suffering] we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.”
When we are faced with sickness or suffering, we must follow the example of the Lord Jesus, and pray. We can ask* the Lord to remove it, yet if He does not, we bow and declare, “Not my will, but Yours be done.”
grace be yours, Anna
*”ask” in the biblical way of continually asking with faith (Matt. 7:7-12).
July 10th, 2006 at 10:58 am
“For ye suffer fools gladly …” (2 Corinthians 11:19 KJV)
Ain’t that the truth.
July 10th, 2006 at 11:03 am
I intentionally ignored your OT comment because it’s not relevant to Job’s story. The major difference between God’s old and new covenant is law and sacrifices vs. salvation through Jesus. How does that difference cause Job’s story not to apply today? The people of the OT were playing under a different set of rules, but that doesn’t make them inferior in the sight of God. If they were merely servants instead of children, perhaps you’d like to explain why God frequently dealt face to face with OT men and women? I’d say a personal conversation with God is awfully intimate for the hired help, wouldn’t you? Keep in mind, the Greatest in the Kingdom is the servant of all.
July 10th, 2006 at 11:03 am
hahaha I still chuckle every time I think of Mr. T.
July 10th, 2006 at 12:43 pm
LFTC,
There’s a scripture I hope you’ll ponder some. It’s:
I am glad that I can suffer for you. I am pleased also that in my own body I can continue the suffering of Christ for his body, the church. (Colossians 1:24 CEV)
Several years ago, a dear old friend of mine had a number of ailments in his body, that no amount of prayer would avail. There are a few ailments I have as well that do not respond to prayer. Now this friend and I used to talk daily and we had been commisserating about our un-healable (my grace is sufficient for you) conditions - just trying to understand them.
The next morning, after a time of prayer, I heard the Spirit ask: don’t you know that the illnesses your body are symptomatic of the illnesses in My body, the Church? My friend received the same word, at the same time, though we lived 150 miles apart. Through that rhema word, and the scripture above which confirms it, we understood that we were ’suffering’ in our bodies for the sake of the Church. Why? Because the Church isn’t complete / perfected / mature yet.
Surely you know that Christ not only suffered for the sake of sinners, but continues to suffer for the maturity of His Church? And if we are IN Christ who suffers, we suffer as well for the sake of the Church (1 Corinthians 12:26). Elsewise, why would Paul talk about wanting to know the “fellowship of His sufferings” (Philippians 3:10)? Suffering is on-going as long as we contend with the flesh. For that reason, Paul wrote: “who will deliver me from this body of death” (Romans 7:24)? Life in Christ and suffering for the Body are synonymous.
Let me say this:
The only way you would be free from suffering, is to be dead (and with Christ).
July 10th, 2006 at 1:48 pm
Christians suffer just like the rest of the world suffers. The only difference is that we walk with God through it.
July 10th, 2006 at 3:21 pm
I’m going to explore the positive
If there is only one thing I wish to achieve, that would be positive energy. Positive outlook and honest discussion providing.
I’m going to accept that the reason there are so many lonely and suffering, is a matter of ones own being. A natural occurrence. I no longer see loneliness or suffering as an evil or negative aspect of life.
I view lonliness and that pain now, as a right of passage every human encounters. The great thing about loniliness is that it ends, naturally. No amount of the world or it’s ingredients can take you away from what we are to achieve during loniliness. Lonliness gives us a very real way to evaluate what is affecting our daily existence.
In a small amount of words, I’m beginning to accept life and it’s cycles. I’m ready to achieve positive things with everyone, no matter which cycle of life they may be in at the moment.
This whole thing may be the Hansen’s Cherry Vanilla Creme talking. I’m ready for this ride tho.
July 10th, 2006 at 3:35 pm
I agree, Michael. Now, if you listen to your Hansen’s Cherry Vanilla Creme a little closer… it just might tell you that the correct spelling is l-o-n-e-l-i-n-e-s-s!
Did you go to (home)school with the Mortons?
July 10th, 2006 at 4:30 pm
No, but we drank the same water.
And I did win a spelling contest in 6th grade so I figured that was a good place to stop learning the English language… he he he
thanks for the correction on the spelling.
Are you an editor?
July 10th, 2006 at 8:17 pm
Good words, everyone (except LFTC). All the Scriptures I (and others) referenced are in the NT, not the OT, so the ol’ “old vs new” covenant logic just doesn’t apply here. I agree with John 444, who said “if you’re not suffering, you’re dead.” LFTC, I see no Scripture in your comments, so you aren’t even TRYING to purport a theology based on the Bible. Why are we even responding to your nonsense?
Good night and good luck.
Matrix
July 10th, 2006 at 11:40 pm
LFTC,
Do you suffer?
If not, I’ll take whatever meds you’re taking.
And if you say the only drug you’re on is Jesus, I’m pretty sure I’m not the only one who will totally puke on your shoes for your trouble. But then again, you won’t mind the vomit on your footwear. It won’t bother you in the least. You have Jesus.
It’s funny…..you’re basically taking a somewhat uninformed Buddhist tack on the notion of suffering. No, I’m serious…they say it like this: All of life is suffering….and as long as the self can call itself an I, it will and must suffer. The trick is to abandon the illusion of the “I”, of the separate (independent, dis-identified with the Universe/Divine) self….and by doing so, one can escape suffering. That’s the gist of it, anyway….and it translates nicely into the current discussion: If I am completely aligned with Jesus (and de-identify with self, will, emotion, etc.), I will not “suffer” other than circumstantially. Same story, slightly different characters….
But, all this still begs the question: whaddya gonna DO about it? Because, sitting in your theoretical ivory tower is all well and good for you….the fact that you have the free time and resources to sit around and think/type about this kind of thing already tells me you’re pretty distanced from the worst of the world’s “circumstantial” suffering….and lucky you. Consequently, it don’t impress me much that you’re looking down your nose at the real shit in the world and saying that it’s all caused by sin. You are lucky. You are priveleged, and you will almost certainly NEVER know to what extent that is really true, because you will probably never lose everything, die of AIDS transmitted to you by your mother who contracted the virus from a rape, or sleep covered in your own feces. You don’t get to condemn other people for their suffering. It’s not your job.
So, this is my exhortation to you….my “call”, if you will. If you’re so very enlightened as to be able to transcend suffering, then I say get to it….because, frankly, if it was real, there’s no way you’d be prattling on around here about how it’s other people’s fault that they suffer. Why do I say this? Because the fruit of transcending suffering must be compassion if God is love. If you so align yourself with God that you no longer suffer, you would have aligned yourself with perfect love that would manifest itself in every word you typed. And, if you haven’t arrived, then what are you even talking about?
Sorry, honey…..better luck next time on living the truth you profess.
July 11th, 2006 at 11:59 am
Wow. It seems like you all had fun while I was away. Your mouse-speak humors me.
I don’t really have anything to say because I’ve ran out of points being the devil’s advocate. I thought we needed something more exciting to talk about than ligars and tithe. Thank you for showing me the errors of my ways. Now, I need to go make some calls about opening a soup kitchen and feeding African orphans.
July 11th, 2006 at 12:56 pm
For those of you who may not speak chicken, I’d like to translate LFTC’s last post for you:
“I don’t have any valid arguments left to make, so I’m going to pick up my marbles and go home, yelling at you poopyheads over my shoulder all the way. Wah wah wah.”
July 11th, 2006 at 1:03 pm
Wow, even I haven’t managed to receive such scorn from Jiminy!
MROWR!!! HISS!!!
Seriously, though, her position was indefensible and I think she was just trying to save face. But I can’t help but wonder if this “person” was a plant just to stir up controversy on the blog…?
July 11th, 2006 at 1:33 pm
Not an editor, just a know-it-all!
July 11th, 2006 at 1:34 pm
Jiminy, you nailed it right on the head.
You go, girl.
FFTM
July 11th, 2006 at 2:06 pm
Yup. The Bible calls ‘em tares.
July 11th, 2006 at 6:56 pm
tare?
July 12th, 2006 at 7:25 am
Tare: “An unwelcome or objectional element. A weed.”
as in
“LFTC is a puerile tare.”
Maybe you could try to be more like a ficus? Ficuses are nice.
July 12th, 2006 at 9:16 pm
Thank you so much Listening For the Call. Now I know what to tell my psychiatric patients when I go and take care of them tomorrow. I will tell them “you are not suffering from depression or mania or psychosis because of any silly chemical imbalance in your brain, it’s because you are not walking with Christ and you are living in sin.” I think I’ll also tell that to my patient who cuts on herself because that’s how she deals with the pain of having been sold for sex by her own mother to disgusting men in exchange for drugs. And I’ll be sure to tell them that they can’t possibly have a personal relationship with Christ.
How dare you compare you having a bad attitude with your boss or a less than helpful attitude at work with the true suffering of this world. You don’t have a freaking clue what suffering is.
“Thank you for showing me the errors of my ways. Now, I need to go make some calls about opening a soup kitchen and feeding African orphans.” Shame on you.
July 14th, 2006 at 11:21 am
heh. I laughed at that one. You guys have such great comments, honestly. If it will make you shut up -
I am wrong.
Shame on me.
I will go suffer now.
`
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And sin.
Sinning’s nice because you don’t have to suffer for it.
No consequences? No problem. Who needs all that negativity?
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Ay carumba.
July 14th, 2006 at 11:57 am
Mebbe ya shood change yer misnomer to “Looking for a Heart” or “Tin Man” if ya wanted to be coy aboot it.
July 14th, 2006 at 12:54 pm
Ditto pdxrn
“it’s because you are not walking with Christ and you are living in sin.”
Now i understand why. God I used to be such an idiot.
PAt Robertson is walking with God and look what a fucking idiot he is!
July 15th, 2006 at 12:12 am
At the risk of being a dog with a bone….
LFTC, in the grownup world, if you make controversial commentary (or any commentary, for that matter), you’re responsible for what you say. You can choose to get huffy over the fact that people called you out and you can even pretend to yourself that you’re too cool for all these people who are jumping down your throat and you can pretend you don’t understand what they’re getting all excited about. But, if you choose to say the kinds of things that you’re saying now, don’t expect ANYONE to respect you as a) an adult, b) a person of your word, or c) someone who believes in something worthwhile. You make yourself a hypocritical windbag when you spout the kind of immature nonsense you just spouted. I for one think you can do better. I dare you to, in fact.
July 17th, 2006 at 1:27 pm
Like I said earlier, I’m done with this topic, yet you continue to invite me back in. I said I was done with the topic. I also said I was trying to stir up the pot. I admit it. Considering that the next year of my life will be spent with people like you, I figured I’d need the practice. I’m still working on putting more scorn into my voice, but we all have our weaknesses. Yours is being a stereotypical west-coast liberal, but I’ll try not to hold that against you.
So am I doing all right?
July 17th, 2006 at 1:37 pm
LFTC,
whatever happens here, don’t feel like your comments are not valid. Your comments are as valid as any on this blog.
Even if I totally disagree and despise people for their beliefs, I try not to hate people or count out people who are sharing their feelings.
As long as we can admit that we don’t have all the answers, then dialogue is always good.
Just try to stay on message with how you feel about things and refrain from tearing down people on a personal level.
I have to watch myself all the time here…
I have said some stupid things too… but hopefully I wasn’t portraying the image that i was all knowing…
I just know that the modern church is not modern at all… The PEOPLE on this BLOG are modern and I take comfort in hearing personal moder stories regarding religion/institutions/ect
People are coming togather thru this outlet known as the blog.
Jesus would have wanted this
July 17th, 2006 at 2:58 pm
What makes you think so?
You all have, but I love you anyway.
July 17th, 2006 at 3:04 pm
“You cannot know times and dates which have been fixed by the Father’s sole authority. But you are to be given power when the Holy Spirit has come to you. You will be witnesses to me, not only in Jerusalem, not only throughout Judea, not only in Samaria, but to the very ends of the earth!”
July 18th, 2006 at 5:56 am
Well, that makes me feel better - to know that I am not hated for trying out differnt views. I’m sort of at that period right now. Trying on views like clothing, seeing what fits and what doesn’t. It was kind of when I said that I was bored of the topic that I realized I was doing exactly what they would tell me to do in my debate class in collage - pick a stand and to hell with what you really believe. So much for that. Call me an ammature, but I do need the expirience if I’m going to be out consorting with you people for an extended period of time. And the reason I did was because I figured it was a relatively emotionless way to rewhet the bible-battleling sword. ha. Ha. HA!
So much for that.
You people are ruthless. I gotsta get me suma dat.
July 18th, 2006 at 7:19 am
The only view worth having, is from the cross.
July 18th, 2006 at 4:06 pm
Listening to the call:
What circumstancial suffering have you experienced in your life? I’m just trying to figure out if you know what you’re talking about at all… believe it or not there was a time when I might have agreed with what you are saying. What an arrogant fool I was!
July 18th, 2006 at 4:17 pm
Whether LFTC was faking that viewpoint or not, the sad thing is there are many people that honestly believe that stuff.
LFTC, I don’t think it’s ruthless to point out flaws in an argument. If it was done harshly, perhaps that’s because your tone was less than charitable and it’s hard to know who’s kidding and who’s being serious on the internet…
July 19th, 2006 at 8:27 pm
Inflammatory, personally directed, non-germane comments have no place in a real debate. Examples of these kinds of comments include, but are not limited to:
“Considering that the next year of my life will be spent with people like you, I figured I’d need the practice.”
“Yours is being a stereotypical west-coast liberal, but I’ll try not to hold that against you.”
If you were joking…..um, not funny. If you were debating, see above.
If you can’t take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
And I think you dropped your pacifier.