For your viewing pleasure:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NwH_et2g8o
Is there anything more uncomfortably funny, than a youth pastor talking about having sex with his wife?
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It is not by grace that one enters the kingdom of heaven, but by tithing. – Damazio 3:16
That’s fantastic.
Judah’s is having more fun than you are…
and he’s pissed about it.
I tend to think if you really want to sell people on the fact that you are indeed having sex and that the sex you are having is good, you might want to act a little bit happier. Sounds suspicious.
That was disgusting.
He looks pretty close to when he was a baby… his hair stood straight up back then too… except then it naturally stood on end.
What persona is he trying to copy with the twang and the yelling? Kinda like Osteen? ewww myyyyyyyy
Lets give the kid a break, it wasn’t all that bad! I was at their wedding and it was pretty clear that the two of them were rather anxious to “live as a married couple” – it was actually kind of refreshing. Personally, I’d rather not hear about another married couple’s sex life preached from the pulpit, but I believe he has the best intentions. Young people do need to feel comfortable about sex, although, I can’t really recall a single teenager or “young adult” I’ve ever known who wasn’t fully aware and more than comfortable with the idea of having sex! That’s not usually the problem.
I’m more so embarassed for Chelsea! Pastors (is Judah a pastor?) do have a tendency to throw in little stories about their own kids/spouses, sometimes to the extreme embarassment of the family. I was victim to this many times growing up!
How rude to stand in front of a crowd of single young people and shout emphatically, multiple times, that “I’m having more fun that you are” because “I’m married and have a baby,” and because “I have sex all the time.” Doesn’t exactly help his listeners learn to enjoy their single-hood, to make the most of the time in their lives when they can, as Paul says, focus solely on the Lord. Who cares how often he (or anyone) has sex? I don’t know him, but I’m glad he’s happy in his life. However, is the point of preaching to drive home how happy you are because of your life circumstances? I think not.
Oh, I’m pretty sure this kid was raised in Oregon & Washington, so, yeah, his affectation and accent are quite ridiculous.
When did Judah turn black? And I’d like to directly challenge him. He is not, in fact, having more fun than I am.
PS, did you hear those church girls scream? There’s some good hunting there. Thanks for the video, the next time someone from CBC tries to tell me that GU is not all about hype, I’ll just link them to that.
I was at his wedding also…
They showed a video and kept zooming in on a statue of a lion and talking about the “Lion of Judah”. Now it makes me wonder if he jumps in that old TCHS Lion’s costume before he has sex. Then he could really say he is having more fun than the rest of us.
Actually, I don’t really know Judah, but his wife is really nice. For her sake I hope they are having a lot of sex (I’m sure she loves this being discussed on a blog).
Judah dressing up as the school mascot and jumpin’ in the sack… ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! I’m going to need therapy. What was it they said during their (apple cider) toast… “let the lions roar”???
To the Mrs. – you go, girl, and I’ll stop commenting on this for your sake.
I personally liked this clip better.
He complains about the secular notion of sex being perverted, but then admits that’s what he was thinking about during his wedding ceremony. I don’t think it does much for his credibility to lecture on the depraved worldly view of sex, and the fake southern drawl doesn’t help either. I will give him bonus points for the reference to the Discovery channel song…
I don’t feel embarassed for Chelsea at all. She chose to marry into church “royalty”, so a little embarassment comes with the territory. She can drown her sorrows in her husband’s book royalty checks.
I wonder how many people mistake him for Clay Aiken?
Wow, Judah’s mom still dresses him and does his hair. Does anyone else remember when all that kid ever wore were little navy short suits and white tights (think Little Lord Fauntleroy)?
And RP, he’s more Adam Curry than Clay Aiken.
Heh. Great link, Fezzik.
There’s actually a couple other GU hype videos floating around youtube, I’ll try to post them later.
I think you guys covered all the relevant points, which is why I so love this blog. And I hate to rip on a guys style, but seriously, doesn’t he look like he’s trying just a little too hard?
That’s pretty funny. I couldn’t stand watching that video… his “accent” and how he spoke drove me mad.
Who cares if he has a lot of sex, everyone has a lot of sex. What’s he trying to say? I DONT EVEN THINK HE HAD A POINT.. or it took him a long time to get to it.
Was he at least balanced in his talk about sex? I mean, since he talked about sex with his wife, did he talk about all that wacking off he did before he got married?
Isn’t GU2006 (by the way, how appropriate that GU stands for something in the medical field) mostly junior high and high school students? Kids who should be hearing about staying pure til marriage, not about how much fun sex is and on and on??? How inappropriate for Judah to prance on the stage like he did and exploit his sex life and “na na na, I can do it” to the kids.
…he’s more Adam Curry than Clay Aiken.
That’s Clay Aiken. Maybe we could start some sort of American Idol-style competition among youth pastors. Oh the irony.
Why is the first choice for a ‘youth minister’ a 20-something seminary grad? Seems like a mature adult is the better choice IF it’s maturity and common sense that parents want modeled for their kids.
But where youth groups have become more entertainment oriented than Christ centered, the choice of a young/green youth minister would seem to have more to do with someone who can play with the kids and keep up with them.
I watched both Jonah’s videos on YouTube … I think he may have watched too much of Jesse Duplantis … regardless, the kid is a wingnut. And I disagree with his assertion that “the church needs to talk about sex” … the parents need to talk about it – but it’s not a church responsibility.
Are there any Biblical examples of the open and frank discussion about sex among believers/the church? Not that I know of. Song of Solomon is essentially a love letter between bride and groom – the picture it paints for me is of private love … then there’s 1 Cor. 5 – the man who has his father’s wife (stepmom) – obviously it was public knowledge in the church at Corinth and Paul treated it with contempt for the sinful public spectacle that it was – “put the man out” he said. In fact, 1 Cor. 5:6 says “Your glorying is NOT good …”
What I heard from Jonah on the video sounds like ‘glorying’ to me, albeit of himself – such should be held in confidence (read: sacred TRUST) between man and wife.
Anybody know if the praise band led the kids in the chorus:
I wanna see, I wanna see, I wanna see Jonah lifted high …
Yuck!
It’s J-U-D-A-H, not Jonah.
What makes you think I erred? Jonah was swallowed by a whale, and this guy has been swallowed by his own delusions and BS.
Good stuff, John 444.
I’m with you.
Thanks FFTM.
When I was a teen, our youth minister lasted for about 2 years before he bailed on us for his own church. I was one of those “always at church” kids – volunteering, hanging out at the youth ministers office – I gave him guitar lessons. So it really hurt when he bailed out.
The senior pastor, who had kids my age and older in high school and college, took over. For a main-line denom. church pastor, he was an incredible man – who preached Jesus from the pulpit – who was genuine and visibly moved by love. He was like a 2nd dad to me, and when I got in trouble, he didn’t hesitate to really let me have it. I respected him, and loved him dearly – because he was in it for the long haul, where as the mid-20′s youth minister was using the post as a stepping stone to his own church – a kind of internship.
Biblically, there shold be an eldership (emphasize: ELDER) where those who are older and more mature in the faith guide / nurture the infants in Christ. How can a young person, with no practical experience raising teenagers, pastor them, especially where the matters of life are concerned?
…
I’m left with a potentially stupid question for the youth and young singles (teens and 20′s) … is there a tendency to simply dismiss the older generation(s)? And, is there a tendency to put more stock in what people like J-O-N-A-H (Judah) have to say, than someone older?
Guess I’m blown away that someone like Jonah has the ear of youth, or is considered a spokesperson for a generation.
To be fair we only heard 10 mins of what I sure was a service that went on all night.
To be fair we only heard 10 mins of what I sure was a service that went on all night.
I have to say I immediately thought of Clay Aiken when I watched Jehoshaphat’s tangential rant.
It’s J-O-N-A-H, not Jehoshaphat.
Maybe knowing Judah and Chelsea actually makes it easier to be objective about this. I agree with Judah – there is definitely a negative attitude in the world and in the church about sex within marriage. The world sees it as non-existent, and the church sees it as a necessary evil once you get married that you’re only supposed to do to please your husband and have children, but not actually enjoy. Doesn’t anyone else think that this is an cultural epidemic? Are you all so caught up in being witty and sarcastic that you missed out on the context of the message? Yes, it was mildly uncomfortable to listen to, especially since I always think of Judah as still being in the sixth grade. I wouldn’t think it would be so hard for some of you to look past one’s appearance and speech to hear what they’re actually saying. And for the record, I think he sounds just like his dad.
But Hannah, he had a southern accent! By my calculations he’s spent exactly…uh, zero years in the south! He’s most certainly not the Judah (aka Jonah/Jehoshaphat) you knew in 6th grade any more; he’s cut from the same fabric as an Osteen or a Damazio!
P.S. I have a love affair with exclamation points!
Cultural epidemic is a misdiagnosis. What you’re seeing is the long-term effect of state-church influence from the Catholic church tradition and the Victorian era where sex is concerned. Sex isn’t the only thing that religion has branded as dirty; how about alcohol, slang, rock music, gambling, smoking, and countless old traditions, hymns and religious relics that have been rendered “holy” (sacred) by churchians? They all come with a hands off or bad label.
For example, my nephews are being raised in a very religious way. They have been taught that poop is bad; in fact, there isn’t a single word you can call it that isn’t bad. So imagine the trauma they go through when they’re helping me with a project, something goes wrong, and uncle Jack let’s out an emphatic “shit!” They told their parents. Their parents convened a family meeting to confront me. I listen politely to them for half an hour, and finally asked them “well, what do you call that smelly brown stuff that comes out of your butt” – and they gasped at “butt”. Heck, the word “shit” is in the Bible, but our religiousness has prompted a ‘sanitization’ of scripture – rendering the original greek word for shit as “refuse”, “trash”, or “rubbish” – only the KJV was honest in rendering the word “dung”. (Luke 13:8, Phil. 3:8). Maybe the Bible is bad, at least in the sense that we feel we need to clean up the language it uses?
What the church really needs to examine is their adherence to tradition, the notions of holiness/sacredness, in light of the purifying work of Christ’s blood. What does it mean when scripture says Christ sanctified and cleansed us? What does “Christ destroyed the works of the devil” mean? Could we be wrong in many/most of our judgments of things as good and evil? Don’t forget, it was the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil that we ate that completely hosed us up; what makes any one of us think we have the capacity to rightly judge good and evil? It is written:
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. (Isaiah 64:6 Webster)
What that scripture says to me is, even when we think we are doing good and righteous things, they’re filthy. We can’t do good / righteous on our own, nor can we rightly discern evil/bad when we label sex within the context of marriage as anything less than beautiful.
It isn’t that Judah is wrong, it’s that he’s barking up the wrong tree. Wanna kill a weed, gotta kill the root.
Specifically, instead of preaching about sex, he ought to be examining the ROOT of our understanding of good and evil, which is tapped into dead religion and baseless tradition.
Perhaps the deadliest notion we can have, in terms of living and enjoying the life that the Father has given us in Christ, is the notion that we still have work to do to be clean/pure/holy beyond the work that Christ did on our behalf. If all OUR righteous works are as filthy rags, then don’t we labor in vain to be clean/pure/holy, and wouldn’t it be better to simply rely on Christ to cleanse us? In my way of thinking, there’s a sense in which all our vain efforts to cleanse ourselves and refrain from doing the many things we think of as sinful, is rooted in a lack of trust in Christ. I’m not talking about a license to sin, rather, each of us seems to have a personal code of right and wrong, good and bad, that is extra-Biblical. Such makes a person rule-bound, and can make for a miserable existence.
In the freedom, then, with which Christ did make you free–stand ye, and be not held fast again by a yoke of servitude; (Galatians 5:1 YLT)
Have we become slaves to dead religious ideals? Is there life in refraining from doing “bad things”? Do we get brownie-points in heaven?
Then maybe I didn’t make myself clear, seeing as my comment was only one small paragraph and contained no scriptural references. I do think there is an attack on marriage from Satan, the father of lies, that has affected the world’s view of marriage. Not just on sexual intimacy, but on all aspects of marriage, and that the church’s response has been pretty much nil. The youth of today do not want to hear someone say to them, “go ask your parents about sex” because they think their parents are retarded. The youth of today would like to hear something real. Something honest, something personal. From someone close enough to their age that they feel they can identify, yet someone old enough that they respect. (p.s. I’m not saying all youth pastors need to be between the ages of 24-32 so don’t freak out.)
My whole point of what I was saying previously, and I can’t believe I have to say this to a bunch of grown-ups, is that it is not our place to judge someone even if they are wearing different clothes or they talk a little funny. It is definitely not WJWD. Exclamation point, exclamation point, exclamation point.
Hannah, the issue of adult credibility is of our own making, so I don’t fault any young person for holding the older generation(s) in suspicion. As a generation, we haven’t exactly been good stewards of anything but our own portfolios.
However, as a person of years, I am alarmed at what Jonah is peddling as wisdom. Twenty years from now, he will look back on that message and cringe at his misplaced zeal.
Ew. That was pretty icky.
Sounds like he’s doin’ the same drugs Rush Limbaugh got busted for… In this case, I would say he is having more fun than me/us/them…
Nothing like wild sex when you got all those pills and all those teen girls yellin at ya!
P.S. I like the accent. Brings out his country goodness!
I bet he screams “Hell Yeah!” with that same accent when his lovely well mannered wife is blowing his mind…
If he really is having as much fun as he says he is, he should provide video proof. If his wife isn’t speaking in tongues by the 40th minute, he should be stoned for being a false witness.
Judah Smith is the most amazing youth pastor that I know of. I have never met him, but I have listened to many of his messages online from Generation church. If you listen to the whole message, what he is saying is that for too long the church has made sex some weird, foreign, even bad thing. Judah wants to destroy the lie and shed light on the fact that he as a married person enjoys his life. He is saying that Christians do have wonderful sex lives, but that the must be found in marriage and that is the only way to enjoy an intimate relationship to the fullest. He was not angry, if anything (having listened to many of his messages) he was passionate about what he was saying. You all need to go to generationchurch.org. listen to the audio casts. They will challenge everything you think.
I just want to thank you for sending me to generationchurch.org. I was going to listen to a whole sermon by Judah, in order to give him a fair chance, but then I saw that his wife Chelsea has a sermon titled, “Bob, The Builder”. I started chuckling immediately.
I was pretty good friends with his wife in High School, so this is definitely going to be a blog post. I’m thinking another running diary.
I’m totally blown away GenChurch.
NOT
Everyone knows sex is fun.
The church just realized this after 2000 years and now I’m supposed to care if some dude with a good accent tells me he’s having more fun than I because he’s married.
Who cares.
This is just another guy trying to use the Bible to write out the NEW Lifestyle we are supposed to want to achieve.
Judah is the reason that people of alternative lifestyles are oppressed in this country.
I he came out and said “Look marriage is great for me, But find what you like and worship God with that realationship” that would be different.
In this case as in most, the Christian is the DIVIDER not the GLUE.
Many of you are ignorant. So maybe the titles of these sermons are silly. That’s the point. I remember them more because of how I can relate the message to the simple title. Everyone knows sex is fun… but fun at what cost. How fetched is it to imagine that everything that would deteriorate you as a person would be made to seem fun? Some of you sound l like you might know something about God or faith, but you lack experience. You might understand that there is a spiritual battle for our lives, and the best tactic to kill us physically and spiritually is to desensitize us to what is not profitable, but rather harmful. Look at the world you has “realized” how much fun sex is… it doesn’t look like they are any more better off. All can seem to do is sit around and complain about people who offer something better. Look at the relationships in hollywood… they suck. Judah is not the reason many “alternative” lifestyles are oppressed in this country. They are oppressed because they are captive to their own perverted desires. In the end, it doesn’t matter what any of us think, but what God thinks. Pretty soon you are going to see God moving throughout the world. There are going to be major earthquakes, volcanic activity, and catastrophic hurricanes. This is because we as people have tried to kill God, and follow our own lusts. A hope many of you are found not straddling a fence, but standing on the side of God. Let me make this known, i am not affiliated with Generation Church, but i support them. They are some of the only people who are addressing issues and speaking and teaching better than anyone I have heard. Do listen to Bob, the Builder. Maybe you’ll learn something.
Preaching against evil is SO old covenant. The new covenant is about knowing and preaching Christ and Him crucified.
Jonah’s preaching is old covenant / old wineskin. Gotta white wash them tombs – burnish them cups.
GC – if any preacher stands up there week after week, and preaches against sin, and the congregation strives to avoid sin, are they saved? If your answer is “no, only Jesus saves” – then why waste time preaching against sin (and other human stupidity) when the only message with power is Christ and Him crucified? When preaching Christ, where people get saved, why not let the Holy Spirit go about the ministry of renewing our minds, which will take care of any screwball attitude about sex?
Jonah preaches like a moron, and anyone who swallows Jonah’s crap is a moron too.
Pharisees: making sons of hell since 654 BC.
Hey guys, I read all of the above comments and would like to make something known. I’m a 23 year old pastor from ON, Canada. I was 17 when I first heard Judah Smith preach at a youth conference at Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship (www.tacf.org). I was kinda struggling at the time in my relationship with God. Judah’s teaching (he was 21 at the time) rocked my world. I learned I could experience God and have an intimate relationship with Him alone, not only at church. Also I saw more miracles and healings than I’d ever seen before, witnesses the power of God not only mere words. My life has never been the same thanks to Judah’s obedience to God’s call on his life.
Personally I enjoyed the message (and I do agree if you comment you should listen to the entirety of it) “The Beautiful Affliction” and it gives me courage to wait for the wife God will give me, and not live by my flesh. One of the things that stirred my heart at the conference was Judah said, freshly married at the time, that he had never masterbated once in his life. Not once! and attributed that to the grace of God! Perhaps because of his courage to say that, I have not masterbated in the last 4-5 years of my single life, so it is possible to live a pure life with God… but I do look forward to marriage! haha. My prayer for all of you would be that you would look beyond exterior appearance, and hear the voice of Holy Spirit, calling us to see the cross, and a Daddy’s (God’s) love for us that calls us back to union with him, only at the expense of crucifying our sinful life with Jesus. I love you all, and pray that the glory of God would touch your lives. Go deeper in God guys. God is cheering for you to know Him, obey Him, and fulfill the call of God on your lives.
Peace…
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The Bible says I can’t masturbate?
To An unscrupulous Man:
I thought your last post was a little… unbiblical. Yes, you can only come to the Father through Jesus Christ, but once you are saved does that mean you can lie, kill, cheat, committ adultery? I hope your response is no, otherwise you need open up the bible and read what the word of God says. Christ told his disciples “If you love me, then you will keep my commandments.” This is what He is still telling those that follow Him. Too often in the church we have become lax with being obedient. We have taken the message of grace and used it for our own lawlessness. The Holy Spirit does come to teach, correct, and counsel us, but we as the church, the body of Christ, are to allow the Holy Spirit to use our lives to help all believers from stumbling. Many people in the church are experiencing personal battles and no one will address them. I’m glad there is a new generation of individuals, such as Judah Smith, who are willing to be bold and address the real issues confronting our youth. And don’t forget that Paul was always writing the churches and telling them to stay away from sexual immorality and other forms of immorality. Jesus does save, and He asks us to live a life of obedience as He was obedient to God.
The Bible says sexual immorality is sin, and no one who practices such things will inherit the kingdom of God. Masterbation is essentially sex with your hand. Jesus also said if you look at a woman and imagine having sex with her (my paraphrase) then to God, it’s the same because you’ve done it in your heart. And your heart, or spirit, is really the core of who you are and whatever is in your heart will eventually manifest in the natural. So yes, I believe sex with your hand is wrong, because what you are thinking of in your heart; the motivation of masterbation being lust and natural urge. Albeit, there are natural urges that have tempted me to masterbate. I suggest going for a walk and doing something physical to take your mind off of lustful things that will feed that temptation.
Furthermore, as a Christian who is madly in love with Jesus, I want to be as close to Him and as far away from the line of compromise as I can possibly be!!
Agreed?
How so?
Why do preachers, who are taking money for preaching, despite Jesus command to “freely you have received, freely give”, therefore disobeying his commandment and demonstrating their lack of love for him, presume to tell their congregations not to sin?
It is far better to keep the message and your life Christ centered (i.e., in humility, broken-ness and the knowledge of ones own sin and need for grace), and let the Holy Spirit go about the work of cleaning up the sin mess, than be a hypocrite and preach an old-testament message of “avoid sin” while indulging in sin.
Please don’t tell me how wonderful these empire-building preachers are, bilking people and living in $425,000 houses. Clearly, the message they preach is: do as I say, not as I do.
C’mon man – don’t you think Jesus would ask them: why did you preach about sex and not about me?
Amen Jeremiah, I do believe the scriptures you quoted. Do you think I misrepresented them by what I said about not masterbating? Purity is a thing of the heart for sure, but also of the natural.
“Who may ascend the hill of the Lord? Or who may stand in His holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart…” psalm 24
Therefore an ongoing relationship with God will demand purity on all levels. Resistance of sin is only accomplished through God’s grace, as ALL things that require faith are only accomplished through God’s grace.
I don’t find a problem with people following a man, as he follows Christ. I for one love Judah Smith, don’t know him personally, but for sure I love the presence of God and truth I receive from his preachings. Someone said the reason movements become monuments is because the people exalt a man so high they don’t have to become like him (or her).
I believe this to be true. I have people following me and my lifestyle and convictions, and I want them to emulate me in character and conduct as I emulate Christ and my leaders, not simply praise me because of the holy life I live, but do as I do.
True I have sinned in the past 4years, what I’m saying is by learning to truly live in the presence of God and obey His voice out of love for him, our sinful nature, through the cross, can be crucified and overcome. Our nature can truly be changed from sin to Christ, as we walk out the process of salvation. And we can lead others to change as we change ourselves, and disciple others. I would encourage everyone (and I do a lot) to listen to Judah Smith’s messages, because he is a man, as far as I can hear and discern by the Holy Spirit, that is walking in integrity, honour, and purity. He is a man that God has put in my path to yield powerful change and increase in my relationship with God. And I thank and bless the Lord for his life, and the choices he’s made to represent truth the way he does.
I worship Jesus, not men, but I honour men of God who go after God, not perfectly, but with passion and courage. I believe Judah does, and for anyone that mocks him publically, I fear for them, and I would ask the question: how is your heart before your maker?
And I would emplore you to ask God for the gift of discernment.
Clean hands? I don’t think he’ talking about masturbation here, Josh.
Josh,
I actually agree with a lot of what you say and further more I think it’s great that you love Jonah. I don’t love Jonah, but I do think he is a talented public speaker.
That being said, I can’t help but think you are a complete idiot if you actually believe that he never once masturbated in his life. And this brings us to the one big problem with youth pastors (pastors in general really, but especially youth pastors).
Pastors seem to think that it is OK for them to lie… if it sends a positive message to their youth. Whether it’s Doug Lasit lying about how far he went with his wife before they were married, or if it’s Jonah lying about never masturbating it’s all the same.
Why they think it’s ok to lie but wrong to masturbate will never make sense to me. But what do I know…
Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t Pastor Slappy say he thought about sexing up the future wife DURING the wedding? Technically, he wasn’t married yet and was therefore lusting. Surely this means he will go to Hell for this transgression right?
Josh,
I think your honesty is great, as is your quest for purity.
That said, there are two types of guys in the world: Guys who masterbate. And Guys who lie about not masturbating.
there are two types of guys in the world: Guys who masterbate. And Guys who lie about not masturbating.
Uhhhh…..
Well something I know, that the desire of God is to be one with us, and to bring us back into complete union with Him. That’s where I wanna go, so I just wanna bless people as they pursue God. God through Judah Smith has touched my life in lasting ways, even His messages on sexual purity challenge me to live in a more intense way. I would encourage all to listen to some of his other messages… and to more importantly, live completely for our amazing saviour, Jesus, who will ultimately judge every one of us anyway. His opinion is the most important one of all.
And for ‘Reformed Pope’, if I could not masterbate for 4 – 5 years of my single life, I think it’s possible not to for 21. I believe Judah, and he is accountable for the words he says. At the very least, it encouraged and empowered me to understand I could live that way also.
Blessings…
What’s the matter with masturbating, anyway?
The puritan attitude towards masturbation seems to be a derivative of the ‘look at a woman with lust in your heart’ scripture … problem I have with that is, looking at a woman you don’t even know in a lustful way, isn’t bad because sex is bad, so much as it objectifies the woman – makes her less human – or that you’re imagining a ‘covenant act’ (intercourse) with someone you are not in covenant (marriage) with and therefore mentally fornicating / adultering. Begs the question – is it possible to masturbate for the simple pleasure of it without drooling over a porn mag or conjuring up a mental image of a woman?
Specifically, is it OK to masturbate if you are wholly focused on self-pleasure, and not objectifying someone else?
Or is there a scripture about masterbating?
There is nothing the matter with mastUrbating.
Sheesh!
OMG! Nothing worse than misspelling something I’ve been doing all my life.
Thanks for giving me a hand, pdxrn.
Where in Bible does it say that???
Googling “what does the bible say about masturbation” brings up a number of diverse articles. I read several of them – this one wasn’t religious like the others and makes some darn good points:
Masturbation: A Sin For Christians?
I’d never heard the “nothing beyond what is written” (1 Corinthians 4:6) argument before for disspelling religious rules. Since scripture says nothing about masturbation, but only about lusting in our hearts / minds, it would seem like masturbation without painting a lustful mental image is OK.
The only thing that comes closest to condemning hand-to-gland combat is Onan in Gen. 38, 6-10. This story has been misinterpreted to say a dude spilling his seed without fathering a child is sinning. The correct point is that Onan was duty bound to give his sister-in-law a baby but didn’t.
Likewise, Matthew 5:28 is taken out of context by the definition of “lust”. Lusting as temptation is not a sin. Think about it, Jesus himself was tempted for 40 days by Satan. When you see a hottie walking in front of you, you are supposed to think, “Nice ass”. But you are not supposed to attempt to cheat on your wife to find out how nice it really is. That is using the Free Will God granted us. Jesus taught us to meet temptation head on and defeat it.
In Moses’ day, all a man had to do was write a letter to divorce his wife. Women were given no protection under law. They were not allowed to even keep their inheritance as the dowry was passed onto her next husband or her son. If a man wanted another wife, it was as simple as a Dear Jane letter. That is why Jesus prefaced it with (verse 27), “You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’” So you come home, give wifey a letter, kick her out, get a new wife and you didn’t commit adultery? Jesus says nope.
So Jesus was re-affirming the “Don’t commit adultery” rule, not redefining it.
Does bible temple / city bible now preach that wacking off is a sin? I’d love to know what Frank’s official opinion is on this subject.
So who wants to ask him? lol.
Wow. This really sparked some serious debate. Interesting. I’m not very good at constructing amazing irrefutable arguements. So I’m not going to try. I did, however, find it slightly offensive that Judah felt the need to be so very emphatic and public about his sex life. Frankly, if my husband got on a stage and talked about me that way I can tell you he wouldn’t be having sex anymore for a good long while. On the other hand, I agree that many Christian young people are woefully uninformed about sex. I attend a Christian university and for the last three years I’ve lived in the dorms. I cannot even begin to number the girls I’ve encountered who know nothing about sex. Nothing. I met one girl who actually thought it was possible to get pregnant simply by being in a hot tub with a guy. And she was one of the more informed! It makes me sad. In this area, these otherwise perfectly normal and intelligent young women have been made lame and somewhat defenseless by their lack of knowledge. Not every young man that they meet will have their best interests in mind and I’ve known several who’ve found themselves somewhat unwittingly used and abused because of it. Judah may have gone about it the wrong way but something does need to be done.
Yelling out, “I’m having more fun than you” and CLAIMING that you are having sex with your wife isn’t exactly what I would call Sexual Education.
However, it is entertaining and for that I commend Jonah.
Sex?
awe yes… entertainment for the road trip to
Great points, JP.
Okay, so you guys decided to go all crazy about the way that he talked about sex. Personally, I think that he really made some good points and you guys just want to find something to bash others about. Most of you know that he was right, and that sex is so perverted nowadays. I’m sure in the back of your minds that you know that you don’t honestly feel good about yourselves. You put on a front and act like what you do is all good…but hey guess what! You know that you’re still miserable. Judah stood up there and yeah he was way vocal about his opinion but I’m sure he really connected with some people and their lives will be improved because of the way he speaks the truth of God’s Word. God made sex to be a beautiful thing but people ruin it and make it into something disgusting.
I’m certain that championing a right attitude about sex will usher in the 2nd coming. Jesus would be right proud of Jonah.
If sex were the object of our attention/affections, in so far as the Church is concerned, how come we’re not singing:
Lord I lift my dick on high?
I’ll be honest…I rushed into marriage so I could have sex and it never once lasted more than 5 minutes. It was all based on B.T. teachings. I’ve never had it good except when I’m by myself so I can’t relate but I knew Judah from since before he was born. I played with him almost everyday growing up. I remember him as a whiny little kid who talked too much and bugged the crap out of his sister Wendy. I was hoping that would change. Apparently not. Or maybe I’m just jealous…
Disgusted, I respect that you don’t agree with what you read here. However, your inaccurate speculations about how we “really” feel and/or think result in you having no credibility here, at least not with me, so, bye-bye.
What I’ve noticed from observing the MFI world for the last 23 years is that sex has been put on this ridiculous pedestal where it has become something completely separate than the legitimate feelings two “christians” in love have for each other. Almost to the point where if you truly care about someone and are falling in love you just have to keep focusing on the fact that you’re not going to have sex with each other until you’re married. And then once you are married (prematurely most of the time, so that you can have this pedestal sex) there seems to be this fake glow about how incredible the relationship is because they waited for sex, when all of the while the time wasn’t taken to get to know the person they are married to on the levels deeper than sex, because yes, those levels do exist.
I googled Juda Smith, just to find some info on him. I recently heard him speak at a youth conference wihich I attended with my youth group of which I am a leader as as well as a parent of a teen. I was totally amazed by Judah (not Jonah) as was our entire youth group including leaders. But I tell you honestly what I am more totally amazed at is the fact that there are people claiming to be christian and talking about masturbating. Come on guys, PLEASE get real!!! And more amazing is the fact that you all sit here in your comfort zones and bash a child of God. As a parent, it infuriates me when my children treat each other with disrespect and inhumanity. I am just a simple human, so how do you think all powerful and knowing God reacts when he hears of you ripping His child Judah apart in the name of christianity? If you are trully God’s children, then grow up and act like it!
Totally Amazed,
Thank you very much for your comment. A lot of people share your concerns over this blog.
A couple of other unrelated thoughts on this particular post.
Before I posted this blog, I googled Judah Smith to see what was written about him. There wasn’t much. I was really curious whether our little blog would show up on the first page if people googled Judah. And sure enough, two days after I posted this You Tueb clip, our blog was the third choice on google’s front page.
I was thrilled.
I’va been googling pastors at City Bible since this blog started, and we’re killing them. If we’ve mentioned them on this blog and you google their name, our blog will likely be one of the first selections on google.
Heh. It makes me so happy.
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This is the new “body” of Christ.
Thanks you Lord for this new avenue to reach people with your love.
Amen
Amazed, we’re open, we’re honest, we should be commended.
However, if you prefer to listen to Jonah lie about having never been “swallowed by the whale” that’s fine with me. I’ll take an honest comment about MASTURBATION over Jonah’s lies anyday.
By the way, we (those who blog here) are all products of the “hype and flash” youth group movements that you support. Take your children down whatever path you feel lead, but don’t be surprised when they end up writing a blog about you.
This blog has sunk to a new low. You guys ought to be ashamed of yourselves. Instead of criticizing Jonah, we should be following his example.
All married Christian bloggers should tell us how they are having more fun than the non-married, and with more details please. Frequency, duration, position, expletives uttered, and fruits of the union should be announced and recorded. Surely this will be pleasing to God and will be rewarded with his blessing, so long as we tithe.
Likewise, nowhere in the Bible has Christians criticizing Christians, at least, not in any Bible I own. I have long since ripped out Romans through Jude in the New Testament since there just seems to be a lot to bitching. It’s almost as if Paul started a blog to admonish what he considered non-Christian behavior among Christians…
Anyway, Paul’s letters should read: “To the church at Ephesus, you guys are doing swell. Keep up the good work. Prison food sucks. Wish you were here. Hugs and kisses XOXOXOX, Paul.”
prison food sucks lol…
similar to the spiritual food CBC and it’s minions have been serving for sometime…
Judah Smith’s work is similar to fast food in that the initial moment of impact is quite tasty but down the road one finds oneself dodging traffic to get off the proverbial highway to…
uh um…
relieve ones self in anyway that god has provided their earthly vessel to do so.
XOXOXO
Hmmm … there may be a song in that, JP:
TTTO: What I Like About You (Ramones and Romantics)
You can blog about me
I can blog about you …
This is Dr. James Dobson’s opinion on the forbidden “M” subject. It will surprise you.:
“Masturbation is a highly controversial subject and Christian leaders differ widely in their perspectives on it. I will answer your question but hope you understand that some Bible scholars will disagree emphatically with what I will say.
First, let’s consider masturbation from a medical perspective. We can say without fear of contradiction that there is no scientific evidence to indicate that this act is harmful to the body. Despite terrifying warnings given to young people historically, it does not cause blindness, weakness, mental retardation, or any other physical problem. If it did, the entire male population and about half of females would be blind, weak, simpleminded, and sick. Between 95 and 98 percent of all boys engage in this practice — and the rest have been known to lie. It is as close to being a universal behavior as is likely to occur. A lesser but still significant percentage of girls also engage in what was once called “self-gratification.”
As for the emotional consequences of masturbation, only four circumstances should give us cause for concern. The first is when it is associated with oppressive guilt from which the individual can’t escape. That guilt has the potential to do considerable psychological and spiritual damage. Boys and girls who labor under divine condemnation can gradually become convinced that even God couldn’t love them. They promise a thousand times with great sincerity never again to commit this despicable act. Then a week or two passes, or perhaps several months. Eventually, the hormonal pressure accumulates until nearly every waking moment reverberates with sexual desire. Finally, in a moment (and I do mean a moment) of weakness, it happens again. What then, dear friend? Tell me what a young person says to God after he or she has just broken the one thousand first solemn promise to Him? I am convinced that some teenagers have thrown over their faith because of their inability to please God at this point of masturbation.
The second circumstance in which masturbation might have harmful implications is when it becomes extremely obsessive. That is more likely to occur when it has been understood by the individual to be “forbidden fruit.” I believe the best way to prevent that kind of obsessive response is for adults not to emphasize or condemn it. Regardless of what you do, you will not stop the practice of masturbation in your teenagers. That is a certainty. You’ll just drive it underground — or under covers. Nothing works as a “cure.” Cold showers, lots of exercise, many activities, and awesome threats are ineffective. Attempting to suppress this act is one campaign that is destined to fail — so why wage it?
The third situation around which we should be concerned is when the young person becomes addicted to pornographic material. The kind of obscenity available to teenagers today has the capacity to grab and hold a boy for the rest of his life. Parents will want to intervene if there is evidence that their son or daughter is heading down that well-worn path.
The fourth concern about masturbation refers not to adolescents but to us as adults. This habit has the capacity to follow us into marriage and become a substitution for healthy sexual relations between a husband and wife. This, I believe, is what the apostle Paul meant when he instructed us not to “deprive” one another as marital partners: “Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control” (1 Corinthians 7:5).
As for the spiritual implications of masturbation, I will have to defer to the theologians for a more definitive response. It is interesting to me, however, that Scripture does not address this subject except for a single reference in the Old Testament to a man named Onan. He interrupted sexual intercourse with his sister-in-law and allowed his semen to fall on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother, which was his “duty” (Genesis 38:8). Though that verse is often cited as evidence of God’s disapproval of masturbation, the context doesn’t seem to fit.
So, what should parents say to their kids about this subject? My advice is to say nothing after puberty has occurred. You will only cause embarrassment and discomfort. For those who are younger, it would be wise to include the subject of masturbation in the “Preparing for Adolescence” conversation I have recommended on other occasions. I would suggest that parents talk to their 12- or 13-year-old boys, especially, in the same general way my mother and father discussed this subject with me. We were riding in the car, and my dad said, “Jim, when I was a boy, I worried so much about masturbation. It really became a scary thing for me because I thought God was condemning me for what I couldn’t help. So I’m telling you now that I hope you don’t feel the need to engage in this act when you reach the teen years, but if you do, you shouldn’t be too concerned about it. I don’t believe it has much to do with your relationship with God.”
What a kind thing my father did for me that night in the car. He was a very conservative minister who never compromised his standards of morality to the day of his death. He stood like a rock for biblical principles and commandments. Yet he cared enough about me to lift from my shoulders the burden of guilt that nearly destroyed some of my friends in the church. This kind of “reasonable” faith taught to me by my parents is one of the primary reasons I never felt it necessary to rebel against parental authority or defy God.
Well, those are my views, for what they are worth. I know my recommendations will be inflammatory to some people. If you are one of them, please forgive me. I can only offer the best advice of which I’m capable. I pray that in this instance, I am right.”
“First, let’s consider masturbation from a medical perspective. We can say without fear of contradiction that there is no scientific evidence to indicate that this act is harmful to the body.”
What the heck is Dr. Dobson mentioning science for?
What place does science have in all this??? and where the heck and who the heck determines how much of this dang evil… um… science are we gonna let penetrate our faith???
dangit!…..
I’m willing to be totally honest before God and my “peers” because I truly want to follow God. I struggle with this issue and I don’t care if you ridicule me or not…
What are those of us who tried the “wait until marriage” and then never even had a half-decent sexual experience supposed to do? My first time was considered rape (by my new husband) and he was brutal until the day I went into the abused women’s shelter.
I’m still saving myself for if I ever get married again, to the right person this time. If that doesn’t happen, I will never experience true intimacy. Should I create my own? Why would God give me this desire for healthy sex and not fulfill it? I’d love to hear your thoughts…
I know, TMI, TMI. But if it gets me closer to God’s truth, I don’t care what others think.
sex isn’tt the fun part for me.
It’s looking into each other’s eyes while having sex that is the fun part.
If you can’t trust yourself to find a healthy partner, don’t sign up for the match.
some people don’t have sex with other people.
some don’t want too, but do out of self doubt.
I hope you find someone who you can trust with everything you have.
oinvu4uraqt,
When my 1st marriage ended abruptly, I sought counseling from a woman who specialized in counseling sexual abuse victims, with the hope that my ex would finally deal with the childhood sexual abuse issues that prevented us from knowing real intimacy (emotional, trust, and physical). But she was determined not to deal with it, and that was the end of the marriage.
I stayed with the counselor, because I had been deeply injured by the terrible relationship with my ex, and she was able to help with insights a general counselor could not. In time, she asked a male pastor friend of hers to get several of us husbands of sexual abuse victims together as a support group. It was so enlightening to talk with others who were in the same situation; one of us would start sharing an experience, and the rest of us could finish it, because we had all experienced the same.
While there was a lot of healing there for me, only so much can be accomplished in counseling. The real healing came when the Father brought Karen into my life in ’96. She’s incredible and I feel loved unconditionally. Secure in that love, the healing has been complete.
I practiced 2nd virginity after the separation, however I can’t boast like Jonah does..
Masturbation is OK – I’m sure.
As for the desire for a husband, I can tell you my Karen’s prayer, while she was waiting for me:
“Jesus, I want you to be sufficient for me – like a husband to me”
He was. For 20 years He was sufficient, while Karen remained single. And finally, when Karen was 42, we met. On AOL. Karen lived south of Chicago, me near Seattle. We fell in love via email, without ever seeing a picture of each other. Then we talked by phone. My God, her voice melted me. And finally we met when I flew to Chicago, Labor Day ’96, and then every other weekend for a year until we could be married summer ’97. We both knew very early on that this was it – the love we’d been looking for. And I think that is because WHEN you meet the person God has chosen (even made) for you, the love is ALREADY there – like you already know and love the person on some subconscious / deep level – and so the time you spend to gether is NOT for falling in love, rather, it’s for getting to know one another.
Our watch-verse, while we waited for each other, was the same:
Delight yourself in the Lord, and He will give you the desires of your heart.
Until the day God introduces you to HIS choice in a husband for you, I pray that Christ is sufficient for you.
Jack
John444, that is one of the most beautiful stories I’ve ever heard. Thank you!
Hey everyone,
It amazes me that so many people are opposed to Judahs style of Preaching. He is one of my heros.This man has literally changed my life. I am offended that you people would diss him the way you did. He is doing what God has called him to do. I believe that with my whole heart. Next fall i am going to be an intern at his church. I believe Judah is bringing awareness to the church. Teaching right from wrong, in a way that teenagers can relate. You guys are simply confused because you listen to one part of a message and blow it out of proportion. I agree with the others that challenge you to listen to the whole message. Try to see the big picture of what this man of God is saying. You may change your views. If anyone would like to discuss this further, you can email me at jonathan-kaiser@hotmail.com
I’d like to hear what Judah has to say personally. I’d like to see him comment here. Can anybody pass that message on to him?
Judah has a real talent for speaking. If only he where speaking words of unity and inclusion.
How beautiful would that be?
Maybe Judah would like to meet up for pints at a cozy http://www.mcmenamins.com?
Hey, I’d be there. I’d like to see that show! I think it would be like watching an episode of Seinfeld…
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Well he is the “master of his domain”.
Though it’s too late for me, I’m moved to tears by the number of people who are rushing to Judah’s defense for the mean and spiteful accusation of masturbation. Where were they when I needed them?
They were behind closed doors doing the “lonely naughty thing” themselves probably and feel they have to oppose it because they feel guilty.
I think we’ve all done the same thing at one time or another…just some won’t admit it.
Are the people on here making fun of Pastor Judah serious? Wake up! He’s saving everyone he talks to! Sex is the most beautiful thing that two people can share together, he was making he’s point clear. I used to be on the side of having sex with girlfriends for fun. Now that I’m living for God all the answer are right in front of your face. Sex is amazing, and is meant for marriage. Pastor Judah is a blessing to the NW and the world. Peace.
UGH. Reading these posts just get’s to me. Alright. He talked a lot about sex to get single’s to focus on marraige, not sex before marriage. He has cool style, better than me, and who care about how he talks, it’s his character that matters. Yes, masturbation is wrong and yes, you can stop, i did. It all starts in your mind, you get sex out of your mind and your body doesn’t get charged up.
Check out http://www.generationchurch.org/audio, then you can learn more about him. Everyone has faults and he talks about his family to make him more human.
Jeff, his fake accent does matter. That phony accent is a gimmick, and people use gimmicks to make their message more attractive or stand out to people. Why would Judah need a gimmick to communicate God’s truth or does he lack the faith to let his words stand on their own merit?
Let’s everybody sing:
All hail the power of Jonah’s name
The masturbaters call
Lift forth your oiled up palms again
And crown him lord of balls
Lift forth your oiled up palms again
And crown him lord of balls
Even since childhood he has wanted to be the center of attention. He’s just milking it for all it’s worth. Hey Judah! Milk the cow for all it is worth while you can before people figure out it’s really all bull.
I think the thing that annoys me the most about big organized, corporate churches is their literal worship of “Type A” personalities. Modern mega churches today are structured like American Corporations and just like those corporations they honor and promote certain personality types and set them as “example christians” when what they are truly doing is reducing the complexity of the human christian pallete down to a bland stereo type.
“Type A” personalities tend to be great public speakers, organized, disciplined, focused, driven, etc., etc. and these are the type of people who manage to fight their way (or brown nose their way) to the top where they can show case the skills that God has given them. I honestly believe that their are some guys out there that becasue of their God given focus, discipline and drive are able to never masturbate, or even kiss their fiancee until they actually get married to them (Lord knows that I wasn’t one of them). I think they are very rare but they do exist. However, there are the rest of us minions who are different personality types, like the creative, passionate, expressive, artistic type who can write the most beautiful worship song to the Lord but maybe struggles with self control partly due to his personality type. He is looked down upon and expected to keep up with the skill set of a Judah or Dougy. I am not excusing peoples faults but hoping that we all realize that there are some people in this world who will probably never “get the victory” over masturbation (SIDE NOTE: not referring to myself, marriage really did the trick for me) and it will be a life long struggle for them just as Judah and Dougy have their faults in different areas that they will probably always struggle with. Even the Apostle Paul had a “thorn in the flesh” that God refused to remove to challenge him.
I remember Ken Malmin (who I would consider a “Type A” personality) speaking in a class and mentioning that he has always had a hard time connecting with people on an emotional level, or at least communicating that with people, and that he has greatly offended some people with this fault and it has hampered his effectivness in ministry. This is largely due, in my opinion, to his “Type A” personality which is very analytical, math oriented and generally less emotional. I figure he will always struggle with that. He may get better but he will probably always struggle with it. Now, do we want to place ourselves in the place of God and decide which is the greater sin,:the causing of the stumbling of a brother through your lack of ability to connect or a little private pocket pool in the privacy of your own bathroom. I am not making a judgment here I am simply trying to point out that we all struggle with different things on different levels and it starts to become a slippery slope when you start picking the faults that are “godly faults” and the ones that are not.
For leaders (especially youth leaders. Remember Jesus’ words about the milestone and causing a little one to falter) to stand up on a stage and rub the fact that they were victorious in a certain area (whether it be true or not) because of certain strengths that were God given to begin with in the faces of their parishoners with the end result of making them feel like a pile of shit becasue if they “really” loved God they would measure up is completely repulsive to me. In my mind it would be no different than having all the thin girls in the audience come up on stage and brag about how because of their love for Jesus they have been able to control their appetites while leaving all the poor little fat sinners down in their seats steaped in self loathing because their talent set doesn’t included a little more self control but if they could only love Jesus a little more, abide in the vine, and maybe get hyped up at a few more Generation F****** Unleashed sessions they would “get the victory.
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HE is a blessing or a blessing/great marketing scheme?
Alot of us around here just don’t like his “style” o.k. Jeff.
He’s not evil. His willingness to put himself above others and inflict guilt on others around him, is though.
Jesus saved us all. Some of us just wish the youth pastor’s wouldn’t forget this…
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Dave, Thanks for your comments. My husband and I were at PBC with you. (I’m a couple years your junior.)
“Trying not to be bitter” seems to be a trend with most PBCers. And I really do think a lot of it is CBC’s Philosiphy of “levels of sin”. I never could understand why I felt so judged there. I guess I just happened to struggle with, what they thought, were the wrong types of sin.
I’m not sure I’m making any sense. I just wanted to say thanks.
2 things:
1-I don’t think anyone needs to be told that sex is a good thing. I think we all know that. Married people know it, single people know it. The message is irrelevant.
2-I don’t have a problem with a Judah or 2 saying they made it their entire single life w/o masturbating. However, it would have much more credibility if they were like 55 and saying it, not 21.
I, however am more grateful for people like Josh Harris, who also came out of the domes, who in Chapter 1 of his book on purity talks about his struggles with the M word.
His book came out right before he took over CJ Mahaney’s 5000 member church. That to me is a hell of a lot more gutsy and relevant than saying Sex with my wife is fun.
We all know we’re supposed to be pure. Most of us fail. The real message the church needs to hear is that Jesus loves us anyway.
Hi Dave,
Please let me know if I remember you correctly. I went to PBC from ’78 til ’81 and attended BT. If I remember right you came from canada. You had strawberry reddish hair. Is that right?
Thanks for responding. Anything over a week makes my memory foggy.
Mandie,
Without exposing too much are you the Mandie whose husband I was part of a “secret society” with? (I don’t remember what we called the group but we drank alot and had some great discussions).
Regardless, whether you are or not, I appreciate your response. My natural inclination is to be oppossed to “victim mentalities”; (I tend to believe that life is what you make it) so I don’t want to go too far into blaming CBC for my hypertension and spurts of depression but it is times like the one I had yesterday watching that clip that I wonder whether or not I am suffering from post traumatic distress syndrome. (I had trouble sleeping last night partly due to thinking about this damn blog!)I know the cynics and critics are going to laugh their asses off at that comment but I have come to a conclusion. One of two things happened to me at PBC/CBC:
1. I was seriously screwed up when I went in and that place just exposed it
2. That place seriously F***** me up!!!
I am being as honest as I know how to be when I state that I am completely open to both answers, or both at the same time. I am even actually leaning towards the first but I honestly want to get healed.
If you know me, or have had a philisophical discuss with me before, you know that I am all about analogies. I think it is a great way to communicate. I think there is a reason why Jesus taught in parables.
That was a nice little transition into the analogy I am thinking of. I see it like this: If 10 years ago I got into a car wreck and the front end of my car was all smashed in I bet you would feel sorry for me and we would talk a little trash together about the driver who really messed me up. However, if you saw me 10 years later and I still had the same dents and damage on the car and was still talking about it and saying “well, the reason I can’t really get out and drive and socialize these days is because that driver really messed me up” you would be thinking “what a loser; just get over it. Pay the money and get it fixed. Sure the driver was responsible for the original damage but it’s not his fault that you have left it that way.”
My entries tend to be long winded (Alot like my jokes, Jesse, if you are reading. But, as you know, I have stopped apologizing for that a long time ago; I just take longer) Hope my point is not lost in the letters.
In any case, say hello to your husband if you are the Mandie I am thinking of and if not it was nice to chat with you.
LoveMyLab,
Sorry Dude, I think you have the wrong guy. I think you might be thinking of the Emergency Medical Technician guy at CBC whose name is David Phillips as well. He’s the guy with the deep voice that gets up during services and prophesizes-es-es (SP???) reall dramatic like. I was 2 years old in ’78. I went to PBC from ’94-’98 and I hail from California. I have brown hair, blue eyes, a stunning athletic physique. I like to read books and take long walks on the beach. I also like pina coladas and getting lost in the rain.
(J/K)
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Jesus didn’t save “all”. He saves the ones that love him. You have to feel some guilt in order to love him and transform. Oh well.
Dave,
You had me at brown hair.
Signed – the husband of the former Ms. Cleaver.
So is this website all about bashing CBC. I’ve never been. I’ve been listening to Judahs’s sermons online for about 7 months. All I know is that it’s helped me reach a higher standard.
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What’s the gimmick? It’s not fake. Yes, it’s strange. But he’s himself. Funny talking or not.
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Jeff,
Please tell me you were joking with that comment, Please.
Hey WTFWJD,
Love the name. Made me lol. I am down in Cali now. Hope I will get a chance to have a couple pints with you down the road. Tell the former Ms. Cleaver howdy from an old friend.
Jeff, as a resident of the Pacific Northwest for 25+ years, I can tell you nobody that has spent their whole life here speaks with a southern twang. It’s fake.
Jesus did save all, but not everyone accepts the gift. Also, He didn’t die on the Cross to guilt us into loving Him, He did it out of Love. If you center your faith around guilt, I feel very sorry for you.
Fezzik – a short story. I was born/raised 20 miles south of Seattle, and had never travelled out of the PNW until my late 20′s. Boeing sent me on a trip to Dallas for a few weeks, where it seemed like everyone had that drawl. After 2-3 days there, I finally ate in the hotel restaurant. My waitress said little more than “Good evening sir, may I get you a drink from the bar” and I asked her if she was from the PNW. She said “Yes, you’ve probably never heard of it – I’m from Tukwila, Washington”. “I’m from Kent, Washington” (which borders on Tukwila to the south). I had dinner there several times, if for no other reason than to hear a friendly voice from home.
I’d never considered us PNWers to have a regional accent, but we do, however subtle. It most certainly is NOT like that phony drawl Jonah was spewing. If he’s never been out of the PNW for long, then he probably got it from TBN. Having now travelled the south several times, the only thing I can say about a PNWer who picks up a southern drawl after a brief visit (if any), that person has to be a weak-minded conformist.
Jack, I came to that same realization while visiting relatives in St. Louis. We definitely sound unique, but I’m not sure if it’s an accent or lack of the vocal tones I associate with East Coast, Southern, or Midwestern US speakers.
If you want to track down the root of Judah’s drawl, listen to TD Jakes preaching. I noticed a lot of similarities. I’m expecting him to show up on youtube wearing Paul Crouch’s hairpiece next…
LOL funny!
As for TD Jakes, do you s’pose Jonah’s resume / bio now includes the statment “has preached along side TD Jakes”? Name dropping is good for business ya know.
Finally de-lurking–not to comment on the current topic, unfortunately, but to say hi to some old friends.
Hi Dave: just had a total F.M. flashback. I have great memories of hanging out with you.
Hi “husband of the former Ms. Cleaver”: you are also “my brother’s former piano teacher”. (I think).
I haven’t really kept in touch with any current or former CBC-er’s since leaving 6 years ago. It didn’t really seem all that necessary when the rumors of why I’d left were even better than the truth. Drop by my website sometime and say hi.
[Comment ID #7732 Will Be Quoted Here]
Jonah learned that from his daddy.. the name dropping.
Jeff,
Kudos to you for standing up for what you believe in. I am behind you 100%. ANd…common people..seriously, lets get on with our lives. If this is effecting your life sooo much that you need to vent about it on the internet, then you should honestly seek counselling, or perhaps email judah yourself. Stop wasting your time and energy. God Bless – Jonathan
[Comment ID #7759 Will Be Quoted Here]
stop wasting energy… huh… funny.
thanks for correcting us all Jonathan. your discernment is really paying off.
Used energy is not wasted energy. That’s plain physics.
Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. That’s plain truth.
Dave,
Yes, I am the mandie of which you speak. My husband still drinks a lot and talks a lot. He says hi.
I think we are both over being F***ed up by PBc. And I just got a job teaching Bible at a christian School with my Pbc degree! Ha ha ha!!!!! Sorry. I laugh every time I think about it.
It was good to talk to you too.
mandiesstam@yahoo.com
I posted to this blog, after stumbling across it, while trying to find info on Judah after having heard him speak this summer. I have “tuned in” periodically and haven’t felt compelled to respond again until this morning. Sounds to me like most of the people who are posting to this blog are young, educated, and mostly christian. I guess what I am still in “amazement” about is the fact that while being what sounds like highly intelligent young people, some of you have no common sense. Maybe it’s a case of being so intelligent, that you can’t see the “forest” before you.
First of all, if you are having some guilt about something that Judah or anyone has said…then examine yourself and your actions. God gave us the Holy Spirit to lead us. I just spoke on that last night to my youth group. Remember the cartoon with the little angel on one shoulder and the devil on the other? What voice will you listen to? Don’t blame the “messenger” for your condemnation! Second I believe that when Paul criticized churchs in the bible he was doing it to help them correct their faults. This criticism of Judah Smith doesn’t seem to be anything like that. It seems to be in a spirit of jealousy and hatred. You guys are talking about his appearance and accent. That’s something else.. his accent. I’m from Texas and he doesn’t sound that Southern, but if he does to you because you aren’t from Texas then oh well…. Maybe Judah just realized what we all know in Texas (LOL). Seriously, maybe his accent is a result of hanging out with a Texan or a black person, or both…. I can be around kids, or people from a different culture and next thing I know I am using “their drawl”. Third and final point of my response, sex is great and everyone knows that, TRUE. But what I got out of Judah’s sermon on sex was to wait and to have sex with THE ONE & ONLY person that God created for you. Now, if you have already messed that plan of God’s up, repentance is there for you. He is just to forgive, but you need to do your part also. And really as a parent, I kind of “tripped” when Judah first started that sermon, but it really affected our youth group. And I believe THAT was the objective. If he “gets to” one kid, then I am sure if asked, he would say that this criticism is all worth it.
Love Drunk
I couldn’t find an e-mail address on your site.
Totally Amazed,
I am just curious, what is your spiritual back ground? When did you become a christian? Where you raised in the church or did you convert in your adult life?
Totally Amazed, I recommend you drop the preachy, judgemental, holier-than-thou tone from your post or you’re pretty much going to get ignored. It’s fine that you disagree, but you would be better served to discuss why we’re wrong instead of blanket statements and an alter call to convert us from our evil whacking ways. If you try to approach the conversation as an equal and not a condescending parent, you might have a little more success.
One place where sex is turning into a perversion is at places like PBC/CBC. We’re taught to feel unnatural about sex, and we weren’t even allowed to spend one-on-one time with the opposite sex. How unnatural is that when you are in
COLLEGE, er-I mean, at an instructional institute (lower caps used intentionally here). Anyway, I honestly do believe the church has perverted sex, because the church (anyway, churches like CBC) associates guilt with sex. If this weren’t true, we wouldn’t have a blog post with 127 comments & running. –Karli[Comment ID #7788 Will Be Quoted Here]
Sorry that you took my comments as “preachy and hollier than thou”. Trully didn’t mean them that way. I thought that I was pretty blunt about why I thought you were wrong. I really am not adressing your sex life or lack of it, what I am adressing is your lack of love toward a certain individual (Judah Smith).You seem to have alot of anger toward him for whatever reason (justified or not). The point is the bible tells us love everyone no matter what. If they deserve or you think they don’t doesn’t really matter. And sorry if this sounds like a “condescending parent”. REALLY
I really don’t think folks here are feeling anger at Judah, but at what he represents within the MFI culture. –Karli
Totally amazed,
I don’t know. maybe sometimes Jesus’ way of loving certain people was to turn over money tables in the temple and literally go a little nuts with swinging and such to make a point. Maybe Jesus actually did love the pharisees but that sure as hell didn’t stop him from pointing out some stuff in their lives in what you may not think is the most “loving” way.
REALLY, REALLY dont mean to!!!! (Sorry got carried away and posted before I wanted to). I am a parent so if I sound like one I really can’t help it:). But I also am an adult and I would tell this to another adult which is what I am doing. We have to, myself included take responsibility for our actions. We need not, and I am guilty of that all the time, judge other people too harshly. God is love that’s all I am saying. If you love Him, then you love others. Simple. I just wanted to comment on the anger directed toward a person that I do not really know. But what I do know of him is that he impacted ALOT of young people and older(ME) this summer. That’s what we are created to do, right? We are to make a difference. That’s what I am trying to do every day of my life. Not hollier than thou, just honest.
Totally Amazed,
What is amazing is that your false assumptions. I think I can speak for all (or most here): we are NOT “having some guilt about something that Judah or anyone has said.” We do NOT lack love for Judah Smith. We don’t believe that the thrust or hype of GU-type events or the MVP nonsense that occurs within TBN/MFI circles is Biblical. It IS actually possible to disagree with someone because we believe something different, not because we feel “guilty.”
Most of the people here grew up–or spent significant time–in CBC or similar settings. We’re intimately familiar with what we are criticizing. The “anger” you see isn’t personal in the sense that we all know Judah well on a personal level. The anger is about the “brand” of Christianity that MFI leaders project and portray is the ONLY way to “do” Christianity. Most of us here have very personal experiences of the destructive results of the MFI “brand” of Christianity. So, while your intent may not be to come across as condescending, you do come across that way because you seem to presume to understand us (which is off-putting to most people) and are quick to judge and assume that your perceptions are accurate rather than truly reading/listening. So, what is your goal here?
Oops, first sentence should read: “What is amazing are your false assumptions.”
Hard to love someone who is making sons of hell through their preaching.
Do you get it that many people here have suffered on account of the bullshit preached by the likes of Frank, Jonah, et al? That the legalism, moralist garbage, guilt, shame, greed, overlording, be-like-me if you wanna be anyone in this Church, has made a mess of several people’s lives? That they’ve had to leave, and spend years doing the hard work of healing from mental, emotional and spiritual abuse?
Are you surprised that when you come in and try to white-wash their former task-master(s) that you get an adverse reaction?
Suggest you plug your heart into your wounded brothers and sisters for awhile to get a more rounded view of what’s going on here.
Jack
[Comment ID #7799 Will Be Quoted Here]
I guess my goal is a mute point. Maybe when you all get a little older and wiser then you will realize that you don’t know everything. (I did!) I don’t see love or anything close to it in almost all of your posts. That personally frightens the hell out of me. I trully pray that you all don’t let whatever it is that got you to this point keep you from going further in your relationship with God. Granted you don’t have to agree with all pastors to have a relationship with God, I know. But I hope that you are able to submit yourself to some spiritual authority. I believe when we get out on our own, that’s when we become vulnerable. We need to assemble ourselves with something that worships God and gives Him glory. It might not be Judah, ok that’s good. But I have been taught by my Pastor that we all play a part of the body. Which is more important, the arm or the leg? And if you believe the leg, then just believe that. You don’t have to “ditz” the arm. That’s all I’m saying. I have alot stuff I disagree with in the church, ok fine. But I don’t “throw out the baby with the bath water”. And yes Jesus did throw people out of the church, but that’s Him. Until I live a SINLESS life, I really don’t think I have the authority to do that. I do have the authority though to judge myself and then I won’t be judged. I look at myself all the time and believe me I have changed so much over the years. And every time I think that I have a handle on it, God shows me I don’t. That’s probably how it will be until we get to heaven. I hope you all find God’s peace. Make a difference in your world!
Totally Amazed,
Dave asked you earlier, and I never saw an answer, so I’d like to ask again…
I’m just curious what your spiritual background is? Did you grow up in church, or did you find Christ in your teen/adult life?
Also, please don’t assume everyone here is young and not a parent. You would be wrong.
And also, I’d suggest being a bit more careful with diagnosing “frank discussion” with “anger.” The virtual-ness of a gathering place such as a blog creates a platform that’s harder to clarify the “intention” or “tone” of how something is being said. Your interpretion may be no closer to accurate than mine. That’s why it’s important to enter into the dialogue, ask lots of questions, feel people out, etc. before making the blanket statements and judgements.
Again, just my .02
[Comment ID #7786 Will Be Quoted Here]
Totally Amazed,
Please answer my friggin question. The reason I want to know this is that I vehemently believe that this entire current banter back and forth hinges on this question.
Let me explain. I am going to take a guess, based off of your comments, and you tell me if I am right. It sounds to me like you are a guy who did not grow up in the church but converted in your late teens/ early twenties like my parents did. You had a little experience in extra marital sex, “the ways of the world”, maybe even a doobie or two, and then had the “salvation experience”. When you walked into “christianity” your mind, brain, and emotional well-being were fully developed. You had the ability to experience some of the bull shit that went on in the church and call it for what it was and just dismiss it with out throwing out the baby with the bath water so to speak.
Totally Amazed, a point you are sorely missing here and I truly believe your time would be better spent on another blog becasue of it is that the majority of the people you are going back an forth with on this site with GREW UP IN THE CHURCH. You are making a huge mistake by approaching them with your condesceding bull shit and assuming you are talking to normal adults who entered christianity on the same level playing field as yourself (all in this group who grew up in the church raise your hand…..wait a minute….) Many of your arguments like
I guess what I am still in “amazement†about is the fact that while being what sounds like highly intelligent young people, some of you have no common sense. Maybe it’s a case of being so intelligent, that you can’t see the “forest†before you.
First of all, if you are having some guilt about something that Judah or anyone has said…then examine yourself and your actions.
would make sense to a group of adults who first encountered this but you are missing it. You have stumbled on to a recovery website for children who didn’t have the mental capabilities, the emotional maturity, the social skillls, the self confidence to call a spade a spade and fend of the damaging stuff. Yes, we do sound like intelligent adults but that is because we grew up and fortunately gained intelligence in that atmosphere. When you say “if you have guilt, examine yourself” my first thought is “No shit, Sherlock, that would make lots of sense to someone my age right now but when I was FUCKING THREE YEARS OLD HOW THE FUCK WAS I SUPPOSED TO EXAMINE MYSElf?!?!?!? (I am screaming a the monitor right now). Many of the people on this site have come here to seek healing and mourn the loss of some of their childhood. We have come here to know we are not alone. We have come here to try to recover what was ripped from us in the cult like atmoshperes we grew up in. And it is assholes like yourself that just exacerbate my aching. You don’t think that it irritates me that now I am a intelligent 3o year old man who can look at these situtations and clearly define what is going on but I ache inside becasue I couldn’t then. Where was the 3o year old intellegent man back then to step in and stick up for me?
This, to me, is what this whole discussion hinges on. It’s not that Totally Amazed doesn’t have good points or that we as intelligent people don’t get it. It’s that he can’t relate to what it is like to have “christianity” pushed on you when you are defenseless. Totally Amazed is totally oblivious and should totally go to a totally different blog.
Wouldn’t it be better to have T/A (nice abbreviation) stick around? If he is a youth pastor then perhaps he may learn something from our experiences and avoid some of the mistakes we were subjected to.
Totally Amazed, you’re still not getting it. This isn’t about submitting to spiritual authority or honoring our parts of the body of Christ. It’s about a non-biblical system that Judah/CBC/MFI have tacked onto Christ and call it Christianity. If you insist on laying blame on us without listening, then there isn’t a lot more to say.
It’s hard to learn something with a closed mind that is already made up.
An Unscrupulous Man said:
August 10th, 2006 at 9:34 am
>> Jack
That’s not at all funny, man.
Well Jack, his name is Unscrupulous.
“Many of the people on this site have come here to seek healing and mourn the loss of some of their childhood. We have come here to know we are not alone. We have come here to try to recover what was ripped from us in the cult like atmoshperes we grew up in.”
Well said, Dave! I have to say, this blog is doing the job. Thank you all! I don’t feel so alone anymore…
Good point.
I like Unscrupulous!
Totally Amazed…while I share Dave’s viewpoint, I don’t share his velocity.
)
Maybe I’m a bit more reserved cause I’m a few years older than he is? Regardless, I think a lot of our crux (beyond what Dave noted) is that there are THRONGS of kids (young, impressionable, clueless kids) that are repeating the cycle that we have broken out of, and now see as so harmful, wrong and contrary to what Christ desires for us.
If you’d like to argue “well then why aren’t YOU GUYS (us bloggers) doing something more about it?”…that’s a different discussion. One which may have some legs, although many of us can give examples of how we influence our surroundings in the way we believe Jesus desires us to.
Do I get up in front of thousands of kids and tell them sex should be saved until marriage and then make them feel guilty for having impure thoughts and struggling with masturbation? No. (Although I bet I could dress pretty “metrosexual” and talk with a wicked “slang!”)
But do I talk freely with anyone of a younger generation I come in contact with, and have opportunity to, about how I was a virgin ’til I was almost 30 then blew it and regret it to this day, and that I struggled with porn and masturbating for YEARS, and have only within the last 5 years or so gained freedom in this area by gaining a proper understanding of the release of a yoke of burden like that by learning what true Grace is? Abso-freaking-lutely!
There’s more color here than you may be seeing. I encourage you to be daring enough to try and really see it. Stick around. Engage in “dialogue.” It’s fun! And believe me…it’s just a rumor that doing it regularly will make you go blind!!
)
[Comment ID #7808 Will Be Quoted Here]
Ok, this is gotten WAY OVER TOP! I will answer your question. By they way you were wrong on all. I did grow up in the church. I did have religion pushed on me, so…… The thing is I grew and found what was real, God. So there. Duh, you don’t know it all. But one thing you are right about and as far as I am concerned the ONLY thing you are right about is I need to get the heck out of here. Just for kicks, this was my first and last blog EVER, especially on such a topic. I have come to believe that thanks to you some people are hopeless. Just hang out on “your blog” and heal yourself. Sounds like you are doing a really great job!!!! Peace
Just for kicks, this was my first and last blog EVER, especially on such a topic. I have come to believe that thanks to you some people are hopeless. Just hang out on “your blog†and heal yourself. Sounds like you are doing a really great job!!!!
Jesus?……….Was that you?……….Jesus?
It takes a strong person to stick around when you don’t like what others say. I wonder about people who give up so easy over small conflicts. I’m not so sure I’d want them on my side…
I’m glad Jesus isn’t like you (totally amazed)…if He was, we would all be doomed to hell. If you truly believe in something, it is worth fighting for until the end.
I’m sure T/A does believe in what he is saying and will fight for it until the end, he is just choosing a different battlefield. No need to crucify him over it.
It’s never fun to be the guy that makes a comment then gets his teeth kicked in. But T/A has to share some of that blame by (purposely or not) drafting his “first and ever” blog with a bit too much judgementalism.
T/A, I’m glad you have found the place you feel you need to be, and that you did it despite growing up in the church. Was it CBC, btw? Just curious.
There were times I felt I had realized a bit of understanding of Christ during my tenure at CBC/PBC, but it wasn’t ’til I walked away from that mindset and really got the “American Mega-Church” mentality of Christianity out of my brain that I really started to see the fog lift!
I currently attend a great church. I am not perfect, and I value nothing more in this life than the Grace of God. I struggle every day in trying not to abuse it one ounce more than I have to.
And while I don’t agree with everything that’s stated here, I do think much of it speaks truth! I do wish there were more dialogue from “the other side,” as to why they do things the way they do. And I hope you stick around, although I’m guessing you feel a bit attacked right now, and have headed for the hills.
If nothing else, continue to read about the things discussed here. Maybe you’ll be ministering to someone some day and see where they’re coming from based on this blog about where we’ve all been?
Cheers.
Hey Guys,
Me again. I think I got lost in the heat of the moment. I took a short break to cool off and collect my thoughts. I think I came across as a little over the top there. This stuff can be a little dangerous once you crack the lid open and realize some of the things lurking down inside. I shouldn’t have run T/A off the site. This site was suppossed to be all bout free speech to begin with. While I will not part with my points I think I should retract some of the “velocity” as Greysheep puts it. I would also second Locutus’ comment about not crucifying T/A. Ultimately, the danger I am flirting with is becoming just as bad as the people who originally hurt me. Just like any domestic issue it tends to be cyclical and hereditary.
As a side note, I don’t know if this will matter alot but I would like to mention that I feel SO MUCH BETTER! I feel like I have had heart burn for years and I just took a few Soul-Tums. Sucks that it had to be at the expense of T/A. He left with some comments leading me to believe that this site does no good and that we are not achieving healing. I would stronglly disagree. What he doesn’t realize is that what I put down in my entries has never come out before and if I have any prayer of getting sane again and “rejoining” a church that crap has got to get out! Can you imagine if I had had the same interaction with a church leader only this time it was face to face in a church setting?………Not good. I don’t know if anyone has ever been to counseling before but some times things have to get pretty ugly before the start looking prettier in counseling sessions. It’s like an infected wound. You don’t want to touch it or even look under the bandage because it hurts so bad but in order for it to get better you have got to peel back that bandage, cut out the infectuous decaying flesh and go through a little more pain to let it start healing properly again. Were would he rather I get that done? On a blog or in a church? I am not justifying my explosion but I can’t argue with the way I feel right now.
$$$
PS., Didn’t realize you was so sensitive, John 444.
Jiminy
[Comment ID #7822 Will Be Quoted Here]
Maybe that is WHY I “blogged”. I just felt an unction to do so, and I am really trying to follow those unctions, assuming they are the Holy Spirit. And if they aren’t I would rather have God tell me “I didn’t ask you to do that!”, than have Him say “Why didn’t you do that?”. If you feel better, GREAT! Now I hope you can move forward. And guys, I am girl so please quit with the”T/A”!:)
Totally Amazed, I’m glad you stayed around and posted again. It is just that so many Christians run away from those they don’t understand or those who have a different opinion. Until we learn to see both sides and quit running, we can’t help many people.
I love to read about both sides and I fully hope people will tell me off if needed (thanks, Locotus). I learn alot more that way. I ran my whole life from those at B.T. and others who hurt me. It was only when I stopped running and stuck around enough to listen to everyone that I’ve developed a greater understanding of what Christ is all about…unconditional love and acceptance of imperfect people.
Dearest Totally,
Let me reiterate my apology. I acted like an ass. Alright, I acted like a total ass, okay? Please forgive me. I will admit that I let myself take off the gloves because I thought I was dealing with a guy, not a lady such as yourself. I commend you for trying to do what you think might be God’s will. You are trying and that is alot more than alot of other people can say.
I might caution you about the future though. If you feel that God is calling you to a mission field try to prepare yourself for the culture and don’t be offended by it. If you were called to a tribe of pigmy cannibals in Africa you would want to make sure that you didn’t get completely offended and revolted when they started eating a couple of their neighbors and say
“as I am concerned the ONLY thing you are right about is I need to get the heck out of here…..I have come to believe that thanks to you some people are hopeless.”
I think it’s great and comendable that you want to win the porcupines back to Jesus; just don’t get bent out of shape when you get pricked a couple times. God bless you for your persistence and dedication .
Oops…Locutus. Sorry for misspelling it. I’ve proven my point…imperfect people.
Soccer mom? Big SUV? Church pre-school for the kids? Republican?
Locutus
Couldn’t be more off if you tried.
Resistance is futile,
Locutus
Locutus
Played by Patrick Stewart
Episode: TNG 174 – The Best of Both Worlds, Part I
Star Trek, The Next Generation
During their mission to assimilate Earth, the Borg decided that a human voice was necessary to facilitate their introduction into human society. Captain Picard was chosen to be that voice.
And that voice was dubbed Locutus of Borg.
Despite Picard’s insistence that he would resist the Borg with his last ounce of strength, that resistance proved futile and he was assimilated into the Borg Collective. He became one with the hive mind; he had the Borg’s cybernetic devices implanted throughout his body. Locutus’ distinctive Borg feature was a single, red-laser ocular implant.
On Stardate 43997, Locutus lead the Borg into the battle of Wolf 359. There, what was to be Starfleet’s last line of defense turned into a massacre — 39 starships destroyed by one Borg cube.
The crew of the Enterprise-D eventually managed to sever Locutus from the Borg Collective, save Picard, and ultimately defeat the Borg. However, the memory of Locutus would forever haunt the captain. The events at Wolf 359 crept up several times for Picard, most notably three years after the incident, when Picard met Commander Benjamin Sisko at Deep Space Nine. Sisko served aboard the Saratoga at Wolf 359 and lost his wife during the attack, a loss he blamed Picard/Locutus for.
Locutus plagued Picard yet again on Stardate 50893.5, when the moment Picard had been dreading for nearly six years had finally arrived: The Borg had begun a second invasion of the Federation. During this particular encounter with the Borg, Picard admitted that he could still “feel” the Collective, he could still hear their thoughts. Picard used his knowledge of the Borg to fight them, launching a vendetta six years in the making against the Borg Queen and her drones’ plan to prevent Earth’s first contact with the Vulcans and assimilate the Enterprise-E in the process.
During his confrontation with the the Borg Queen, Picard learned that she wanted Locutus to be more than a drone; she wanted Locutus to be her counterpart. Picard managed to defeat the Borg Queen and save humanity once again.
And here I thought I might have to explain it to you. Guess you weren’t around when we were analogizing CBC to the Borg. Verily I say unto you, that is when I took on the mantle of Locutus.
I prefer 7 of 9. Yowsa!
PS., it’s T&A that I think is a ‘soccer mom’.
FICM
Freedom is irrelevant. Strength is irrelevant. Resistance is futile. We wish to improve ourselves. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service ours. If you attempt to intervene, we will destroy you. Your life, as it has been, is over. From this time forward, you service us.
UnMan – I realized your meaning the second after I clicked “submit.”
TTTO: We are the World
We are the Borg
We’re the Collective
We are the ones who re-wire your brain
‘Cause you’re defective …
MEMLC
Totally Amazed a soccer mom?
Well, she had the “balls” to stick around!
[Comment ID #7839 Will Be Quoted Here]
Actually not a soccer mom. Never pushed either one of my kids to play anything. My son is a guitar student of old rock and roll that his Dad and I turned him onto. Do have a couple of suvs (sorry, just like ‘em). Not a Republican so to speak. Actually used to be a hard core Democrat, but decided against that also.
OK. Ya had me at rock-n-roll. So if yer not a Rep or a Dem, are you a Libertarian? Libs are cool cause they’re for legalizing herb. Using a little herb helps deal with PTFD (Post Traumatic Frank Disorder).
Careful Totally Amazed…
“rock n roll” is what started my “downhill slide” from the “CBC mold” of what a Christian is supposed to look like/act like!! You get your son shaped up right here and now, ya got it!? hee hee
You did good by sticking around these here parts. See, we’re not as bad as you thought we were!
God bless your SUVs!
[Comment ID #7836 Will Be Quoted Here]
Is this Bill Gates?
[Comment ID #7852 Will Be Quoted Here]
Oh you’d be surprise what my church looks like! “Old rock n rollers” and surfers all over the place. Just a bunch of “Jesus freaks”. My son is having a hard time with school and his hair lenght though. His Mom grew up on the Brady Bunch and the Partridge family, so long hair doesn’t scare me. LOL! And what’s up with “sticking around these here parts”? You’d better watch out someone might accuse you of wanting to sound Texan. LOL. And no to libertarian also. Don’t really have a lable. I vote on the person. And if I am not sure about the person, I don’t vote.
man… ya all getting to serious here. There are definitely valid points made here….. But I see in a the SNL mode more than anything.
TA.. ya all gotta understand… Jonah was born and raised in Oregon and Washington. That “accent/drawl/whatever” is really an affectation. There is another blurp of him buried somewhere here… and if you had your eyes closed you’d never know it was the same person. It is not an affectation he “picked up” from listening to someone else at the moment.
Jack…You so crazy.
[Comment ID #7860 Will Be Quoted Here]
Just curious as to what do you think he does that for?
[Comment ID #7862 Will Be Quoted Here]
Pardon?
How’s life treatin’ ya, Lydia? Enjoying the last days of summer here before KK returns to school, and I start a bathroom demolition / remodel.
I’ve known Judah for almost 1/2 my life. He was always copying everyone else and following me and Wendy around everywhere. I think he doesn’t know how to be himself and is insecure so he copies and brags and rides on the coattails of his dad’s leadership. The moments he was himself were rare but when he was himself he was actually fun. So Judah, stop trying to be someone else!
[Comment ID #7864 Will Be Quoted Here]
he thinks it is cool? he is insecure in himself?.. this makes sense as he has to puff himself up discussing his sex life on stage like he was in the locker room with his guy friends.
he’s as phony as a $3 bill. I do not doubt his love for God.. he is just TOTALLY misdirected.
Look at the audience he shared his sex life with… 12 year olds. For GOODNESS SAKE…. what an idiot/selfish/insecure/uncool/stupid/out for accolades/on and on and on kid….. I’d sure not let my kids sit under his teaching.
Look at Jim Jones….. he was charismatic they say… he got his whole flock to drink koolaid together and die and rot in the jungle somewhere.
Jim Jone’s church was the People’s Temple. Then there was Bible Temple. hhhhmmmm….Yep! Makes you think!
“When you meet the friendliest people you have ever known, who introduce you to the most loving group of people you’ve ever encountered, and you find the leader to be the most inspired, caring, compassionate and understanding person you’ve ever met, and then you learn the cause of the group is something you never dared hope could be accomplished, and all of this sounds too good to be true-it probably is too good to be true! Don’t give up your education, your hopes and ambitions to follow a rainbow.” by Jeannie Mills — aka Deanna Mertle — who was an early defector from the Peoples Temple, author of the book “Six years with God,” and co-founder of the Concerned Relatives and the Human Freedom Center. Jeannie Mills was murdered in 1980, along with her husband and daughter.
I remember watching the news reports of Jim Jones and the Kool-Aid tragedy. The reporters kept wondering over and over how something like this could happen. My friends and I (all PBC/BTers) just looked at each other. We knew exactly how it could happen and it wouldn’t be that big of a stretch. About a week later Ken Malmin preached a sermon about what made BT different from the Jim Jones group and why what happened with Jim Jones wouldn’t happen with us. I’m not sure who he was trying harder to convince, himself or us. But I can tell you…we weren’t all that convinced. But it was shortly after this that I began to question what I was doing at BT.
What really scared me happened not too long after that when a number of PBC students wouldn’t even go to the grocery store without talking to their elder about it first. They were so unsure about any decision they made…and they would follow the elder’s advice without thinking of the consequence.
When I shared with a person in leadership that I was thinking of leaving I was told not to think…what I needed to do was immerse myself more in the church. Now I was already spending all day sunday at BT, during the week was choir practice, action night, homemeetings and then there was the singles group. And when formal meetings were being held I hung out at the dorms. How much more immersed could I get?
So I left.
I’d find such a sermon more worrisome than comforting. Especially if he preached just before serving communion. “Oh don’t worry – that’s just grape juice …”
What amazes me is that everyone on here is giving Judah a hard time when in fact at least he is passionate about something he believes in. we are becoming a generation that thinks complaining in a blog is the same as doing something meaningful. if any of you were truly making a difference with your life you’d spend your time more wisely.oh and this website is only “popular” cause it takes people who were trying to check out the real Generation Website. Lastly i met Judah Smith only once, he was getting off a plane at 6 am at a stopover that wasn’t planned. i saw him and asked him if i could get him something and all he wanted was a place to get alone and pray, there was no crowd, no money and no hype..personally i would have asked for a coffee….the guy is the real deal.
unlike others i’ll show my email cause unlike the cowards who blog and hide in the church i’m here out in front. mikemillergo@gmail.com
Hahahaha…. ahhh… I love that comment. If I didn’t know better, I’d swear I was writing these comments myself.
Anyway, thanks for writing Mike. Your opinion is shared by many.
I’m a moron.
Judah Smith wears panties.
Dude! You should NEVER post your email address! Trust me, I’m in the security business. I know!
I wear Juda Smith’s Panties.
gotta love blogs
I just took a moment and read the blog. Turns out I have to say sorry. You see, I just realized I was being reactionary and in my first post didn’t say anything that hasn’t been a thousand times before. Sorry for being redundant.
I just took a moment and read the blog (I’m a speed reader). Turns out I have to say sorry (’cause mom says I have to). You see (I’m blind AND a moron), I just realized I was being reactionary (usually I’m just unsanitary) and in my first post (anywhere, ever) didn’t say anything that hasn’t been a thousand times (I’m a compulsive counter, too) before. Sorry for being redundant (I only have one original thought and repeat it often).
I wonder if Mrs. Smith feels the same???
[Comment ID #6903 Will Be Quoted Here
That was extremely rude!. i was one of the young ladies there at GU. and that is not what was meant by screaming!
No offense G.U. I’m sure you’re a very sincere person.
BTW: I hope you are not hurt by GenChurch/CBC/CC the same way most of us (and ALL my friends) were. Good luck to you.
[Comment ID #11681 Will Be Quoted Here]
what are you talking about?
I haven’t ever really done this or even been to this site. I was searching for Judah on the internet (for a clip of this exact message) and I stumbled across this. I do not want to get into a huge argument, but I do want to say some great things about Judah. I don’t personally know him, but I have listened to him speak. I am an adult leader for a youth group. I also was a sponsor for a youth camp that we went to this past summer and Judah was a speaker there. The kids loved him! He was hilarious and they all loved his style. But the most important thing of all, lives were changed that night. These kids’ veiw on purity was changed after that night. Lives were not changed because Judah changed them, but because God used himself through Judah to change them. I hope that i get to see him again someday and I hope that when I have children they will get to listen to him. I’m sorry that most of you don’t agree with this. Have a great day!
jsp,
Thank you. That is probably the most well written comment we have received in a long time.
It’s good to hear both sides.
I don’t know. I guess that there is something that bugs me in that posting. I think that it is the prevalent tendencies in modern churches (particularly charismatic ones) to so quickly make these “lives were changed” statements. I too went to many a “brain washing” camp and came away “changed” only to find myself going next year to “change” the same things in myself. I would love to see some data from a study that would irrefutably demonstrate that lives are actually “changed” at these pep rallies. Where are the kids 5 years later? Where are they and what do they believe after college? After marriage?I would venture to state that every Sunday in Mega Churches across America lives are “changed” but then you look at studies that are done on the turn over rates in churches today and it becomes apparent that it is not the same community of believers moving “from glory to glory” and changing more each year but just a different cycle of new people who are making the same set of new “changes” before they get burnt out and disillusioned and move on to the next place that seems to be really making a “change”. I just have some serious issues with how much actual good, or what I would consider TRUE “live changing”, is done at these events by the these youth leaders
“I’m having more fun than you are!”
“I have sex all the time!”
That sounds like prideful boasting to me, but what do I know?
Boy, the lighting in that video really shows off the “Highlighting” (Bleached streaks) in his hair.
I had an identical reaction. After years of church and even being in ministry we are way too quick to say that people are changed by one event. Most true changes in life are a process. Only God could be the judge to make such a profound statement over someone’s life. Anyone in a group from a fraternity to
a church can ‘appear’ to be changed by one rousing event. Especially if it
has a lot of hype and emotion to it. Have you ever been to a sales convention–
everyone says its changed their lives –till they get back off the mountain and two weeks later real life sets in. I’ve seen this a hundred times with all the
conferences and especially camp events designed to get you high. They can have a profound impact. Unfortunately the devastation was twice as strong when real life hit because they can’t understand why it didn’t stick.
When the youth leave Judah’s group –real life will set in. We saw this phenomena with all our interns –unless they stayed on staff in the cloister
most were out of the church or living questionable lifestyles within one year.
Follow the statistics yourself.
It reminds me of new parents who have their first baby and pronounce
‘he’s sleeping through the night’ sure right now –just wait till teething hits.
Nothing is set in stone in this life. Choose this day life or death. Don’t
put all the credit on Judah or his event. This may be a lesson that only time and experience will teach you in following people’s lives for the long haul.
[Comment ID #16796 Will Be Quoted Here]
Well said. Particularly the following:
I’ve seen this a hundred times with all the
conferences and especially camp events designed to get you high. They can have a profound impact. Unfortunately the devastation was twice as strong when real life hit because they can’t understand why it didn’t stick.
When the youth leave Judah’s group –real life will set in. We saw this phenomena with all our interns –unless they stayed on staff in the cloister
most were out of the church or living questionable lifestyles within one year.
That is why I love this site…..if only to know that I am not alone.
[Comment ID #6906 Will Be Quoted Here]
This Smith guy is weird! What a loser…
Yeah, but he has “Disciples”… (Rolls eyes in disgust)
Dave,
I have to disagree with you. i don’t like sweeping generalizations, for instance…”i’ve seen this a hundred times.” we both know that is a poor way to start an argument because unless you’re someone who actually encounters “hundreds” of young people…it really weakens your argument.
but that’s not my point of disagreement. i disagree that conferences and camps are “designed” to get young people pumped up. i think its a very real by-product. what happens after one of these events is up to the individual…not the youth pastor or leader. sure, they’re there to guide and give counsel but what the individual does following is he/she’s responsibility. i remember some incredible camp and conference experiences where i felt this high you’re talking about but it quickly left because i allowed it to. i went back to business as usual. i know this is a cliché’, so forgive me but its fitting…you can’t expect to get different results by doing the same thing (pretty sure i butchered that, but you get my drift).
in regards to those you were interns: post-high school students are old enough and have been given enough proper teaching to stay the course if they choose. placing blame on judah or another youth pastor is rather impulsive.
Post high school students are old enough and have been given proper teaching
to stay the course if they choose.
Who do you think cults always target? This age group for their vulnerability
and how easily they can be swayed. Thats why you get these youth groupies-
they are desparate for role models and they are the most easily swayed.
One of the pastors on our staff who helped administrate our interns would tell us on the side –’What are they going to do once they get out of here? We fill them with the idea that being a pastor on staff is the only career or ambition worth having than they graduate from here and find out there are only a few positions available and then they have to go back to school or get a real job and they flounder terribly.’ Her words.
i agree. full-time, church staff positions are not the only vocation we should encourage young people to pursure. the problem is…many of these young people who do intern programs either don’t have a clue what they want to pursue, so they settle for interns, or they see ministry as their only viable option. there are some who really should go into ministry but not all. we need to do a better job of encouraging young people to get involved in various vocations.
A Rebuttal to Rae
Rae, thank you for your comments.
A couple observations:
1) I did not make the statement “I have seen this hundreds of times…” It was Fortunes who made it.
2) You might consider that Fortunes statement might not be so “sweeping”. Depending on his experience in church Fortunes may well have witnessed this happening to literally hundreds of kids. Depedning on whehter or not he went to a Mega church and what the size of that church was it is not beyond comprehension. If the youth group was anywhere from 100 to 750 kids all it would take is a few youth camps to go to until you have witnessed this happening to literally hundreds of kids. I would venture to state that his estimate might be a little low.
3) To throw your own argument back at you. You say that you don’t like sweeping generalizations and yet you state:
“i disagree that conferences and camps are “designed†to get young people pumped up. i think its a very real by-product. what happens after one of these events is up to the individual…not the youth pastor or leader.”
I wonder how many different events you have been to outside your own personal circle. I am willing to grant you that you may have not had a negative experince at your church and maybe your experince was quite different because you were under different leadership. I went to Bible College for four years and attended more church services and chapels than I care to remember (which is partly why I do not go to church now. I figure that God will count up my church hour credits and let me slide for the next few decades J/K) My first year in Bible College hapenned to be the first year of the “Renewal” so I also happened to get enough of the shakings and dog barkings to last a life time. I went to Canada ( the suppossed epicenter). I have traveled literally across the country to dozens of different churches, in a dozen different states, attended church services in Holland, Germany, Finland, and Great Britain. I played for years in a christian rock band that played in every kind of youth service from the Hope Fest out in Ohio to the bake sale party after church in Molalla. I have played for churches ranging from Baptist to Super Holy roller (one church asked us to take off our wedding rings and earrings becasue jewelry was offensive to their faith.) I think that I have made the point that I have been well seasoned in these “life changing events” and I can honestly tell you that were ever I have gone it has been a different setting, a different speaker with different kids with a different spin and maybe in a different language but underneath it is the same old crap every stinking time. As the saying goes, you can coat a piece of crap with chocolate but…..I think you get my point.
3) Lastly, I agree with Fortunes that our youth are most vunerable and susceptible to these abuses. I think a person should not be expected to make a decision on faith until 18. There is just way too much brain washing and condition that happens in modern religion in general today for it to not mess up kids.
I so agree.
But that said, for all his faults, Judah is a pretty good speaker. And I can understand why young kids like him so much.
Now if only he would get a decent haircut, decent clothes, and drop that fake accent.
Dave,
So do you play music in other settings and venues now? Isn’t it amazing to know that there is more music to play than just worship music (i.e. the 1, 4, 5 chord progression) (well, I guess there’s alway 1, 5. 6, 4) ?
And have you noticed that most church musicians usually let you know, either by their absolute non interest or speechlessness if you ever bring it up, that music other than worship is invalid, or at least secondary to the most important music they play? It’s like they don’t know what to do with musicians that play in places other than church or spiritual events. As a musician I’ve encountered that in Christian culture EVERYwhere, not just in mfi churches.
TCR, Did you ever watch the Johnny Cash story? Was it Walk The Line? The scene when Johnny and his band auditioned for the recording agent, where they played a lame gospel song. He stopped them mid song as I recall, and asked if they had anything else as gospel songs and bands were a dime a dozen. What he was looking for was songs of experience, pain, struggle, which people could relate to.
So Johnny and band played Fulsom Prison Blues and were signed.
Cool scene, and far as I know, a valid assessment of music.
Sam
Sounds like Gospel songs to me…
Yes, I saw that and loved it. The point was not lost on me! I loved that movie. Thanks for the reminder, Sam.
(Ok, Bloggie, it’s your cue for a review now!)
They left out the best part! Throughout Johnny’s early days with June, he had developed a soft spot in his heart for God’s presence (this despite being a drunk). In his autobiography, Cash, Johnny explains this. I was hoping to see some of his authentic faith come alive in the movie. I totally loved the movie, but I have to be honest and say it left me deflated.
To quote Aunt Linda the movie critic, I give Walk the Line an “Oh, sheesh” and a “WHA-A-AT?”
Toxic,
Here I was, the Honkiest Cracker there ever was playing keys in on all white rythm section for a Hip Hop group with three black MCs. I actually had a blast. It was a little awkward when they would break during practice to take hits in the bathroom upstairs. One of the main MCs named Cha-Chi used to always bring a 40 0z of Old English to practice. It was just different for me but I enjoyed it.
I pretty much don’t play at all anymore except at home. However, my first love was Jazz and my last experiences with playing secularly was with Jazz musicians. I joined an impromtu Jazz group at Mt. Hood community college which led to me being invited to join the rythm section of a Hip Hop group called “Money and Lovin’”—-Good times
I’ll tell you what chaps my hide about “Modern Christian Worship Music”. Music is essentially art and one of the main tasks for artists is to give a different perspective, to have the rest of us look at the world from a different angle and perhaps see something that we haven’t seen before. But when you have cheesey radio stations like “K-Love” who provide the meat and potatoes for these “Christian Artists” setting standards like (and I am not joking here) JPMs on the radio (which gauge how man “Jesuses Per Minute” are mentioned on the station) it puts a clearly defined box around these christian artists. It’s like putting one of those painting-by- numbers patterns on a painter’s blank canvas and saying “go ahead, be creative, think up something new….as long as it fits in those lines and has those same colors.” JPMS?????What the ****?? Have our christian lives bolied down to how many times we say Jesus? What about the Psalms? What about David writing about how his life totally blows and there being no hope and then in the next song writing about his passion for God. Pat from Five O’Clock People once said something to me that really stuck with me. He said “a song should be a page from your diary” (paraphrased). What he was getting at was the need for transparency in your song writing. If your life sucks, write about it. If you have received hope, write about it. That is one thing that I have really appreciated about Bono’s song writing from U2 (by the way, I have an argument for stating that they are the grandfathers of mondern worhsip music. They are the ones who that popular “hip” 1,5,6,4 chord progression came from. But that is another entirely different blog entry). In order for “K-Love” to stay “positive and up lifting music” it has to play songs from artists who mention Jesus enough times in their music which immediately creates a formula for christian songs which is why all christian music sounds “formulaic”. I believe there are some true “christian artists” out there but not many and for the most part christian music today comes across as disingenuous and canned.
It all comes down to who the songwriter is writing for. One of my musical friends, Devon Leesley in Council Bluffs, Iowa, has self recorded 6 or 7 CDs, and has been giving them away since the beginning. Click his name and it’ll take you to his MP3 site on Soundclick.com where you can hear his stuff.
Recently, Devon sent out this email to the rag-tag outside-the-camp musicians he has met along the way:
There is SO much music written by the Spirit through followers of Christ who have not sold out to the IC or to the devils music system (see Snakes in the Lobby, by Scott McLeod), that will never be heard by more than a few acquaintences of the songwriter. I’ve met dozens of musicians in the same boat. Clearly, we need a highter JPMS.
Jack
John 444
Thanks for the comment. For more clarity, I am not catching what you mean by IC and you lost me with
“I’ve met dozens of musicians in the same boat. Clearly, we need a highter JPMS. ”
Could you clarify?
IC = Institutional Church. Gave up on them several years ago. Last one, which I was with through 2000, encountered entrenched traditionalism, modern worship was Gaithers. Tried to teach some new songs, play the guitar with attitude and not like an angel playing a harp – got all kinds of complaints to the church board that I was playing too loud (that was the sound man) or too fast (the pianist set the tempo). It realy boiled down to one thing – being spirit-filled/baptised in a mainline denom. anti-charismatic church – in other words, spirit vs. flesh and the spirit had to go. I’ve done concerts on and off since 1972 to the present, leading worship, etc. Basically, the worship band / worship has become a warm up for the message and offering. Don’t venture too close to the Father or go off in some direction as led by the spirit; just do 3-4 choruses, 2 reps each, then yield the floor to the pastor. Yuck. That’s why Devon, myself, and so many other musicians I know have just turned to being “recording artists” only and not doing concerts anymore, except for the occasional gig in a park or some other venue where there is no IC control.
Concering “I’ve met dozens of musicians in the same boat. Clearly, we need a higher JPMS” – that’s just my back-handed lame-humored way of agreeing with you, Dave.
Tell ya a story. Around ’77-’79 there were a couple of groups sprang up in Seattle, one called Homestead Records, another Christian Artists Northwest (CANW). They arranged some CCM seminars for the local Christian artists and brought in the likes of John Fisher, Sandi Patty, and a host of other then famous ‘artistes’. Workshops by day, concerts by night, it was meant to help us improve our local ministries and how to write songs that could “make it” in industry terms. There was a competition, in which I entered several songs. One of which, was modal, another humorous. The reviewers shredded the one for changing modes, the other for being humorous. The song that won? 5 or 6 words sung over and over and over and over … the songwriter got a record contract out of it.
Now here my brother and I are doing 6-8 concerts per month in western Washington from about ’77 – ’84 – we did ‘CCM cover songs’ from that period, and pretty well … at the end of the concert when people called for an encore? It was our humorous songs people wanted to hear – songs that told a story or were funny. So it was clear there was a disconnect between what people wanted to hear, and what the industry wanted to present them with.
After that experience, we decided we didn’t want to ‘go pro’, but rather keep working for the Lazy B and do weekend concerts locally. In fact, we found that concerts in the outlaying areas were a lot more fun than in the urban areas. Some of the most memorable being around Eatonville, Gold Bar, Chehalis, Ashford, Cle Elum, and other places no other bands/solo groups would go. We loved it and were content.
Anyway, I agree with your assessment, Dave. No worries.
Check out my songs at LordYouAre.com. Drop me an email through the link if you want me to send you the CDs. They’re free. If you don’t like ‘em, they make nice Christmas tree decorations, or hang them in your cherry tree to ward off the birds. I think that’s what RP and Cat are doing with the CDs I sent to them.
(Of course, you know that RP and Cat are tasteless – well – at least Cat shows promise with that girl at the Christmas party.)
Jack
[Comment ID #17723 Will Be Quoted Here]
I agree with you there. I’m sure they edited it due to their lack of faith that Jesus sells or generates commercial success at the box office. Mr. Phoenix made a nice Mr. Cash, though, even if he was better looking than Johnny.
With that said, who is Aunt Linda ? :>
Dave,
Sounds like the Jazz and Hip Hop Band was quite the experience where the true rubber meets the road so to speak. I think it’s great. There’s nothing like being out among those that need to see normal Christian people with grace and the ability to participate in that ‘abundant’ life Jesus spoke of without compromising the faith. Like you said, it can get a little uncomfortable especially since people can open up and tell you the darnest things. Some of what can leave you speechless for a moment. But it’s good to see how people really live and you find out why Jesus chose to hang with similar folks. One good thing that can come from years of pain like you had mentioned in your earlier post to TA, pain is a common ground. One great songwriter said it best “Pain is our Mother and she makes us recognize each other.” It allows you to choose silence instead of the need to get those words about Jesus in so your time spent there is considered ‘valid’ (by whom?). It helps you be a friend and a person they might be glad to see coming. Just maybe even a person to turn to if the need ever got great enough. It’s their call though, as you know.
Anyway, if you are able to play music with other great musicians, is playing music only at home leaving you wanting? or is it a season of staying in to find out (from the Lord) what your next step is? I guess those kind of seasons do come now and again so you can find out what you really want to do. Sounds like you’ve got the music in you though, so I hope you get to do more with it. Like Jack was mentioning earlier, there’s no place in the church to truly do the music unless it’s one kind. I think there are a lot of musicians of all types waiting for the next step, because it isn’t going to be the church but it isn’t the bar scene either. Thank God for the coffeehouse venues which seem to be expanding and giving more people a place to play. It’ll be interesting to see what develops in the next years. Indie is certainly powerful and relevant today…
By the way, I loved what you said to TA about ‘You have stumbled on to a recovery website’ etc. Even if you were a little riled up, it’s the best explanation of this blog so far and we’ve all been trying to explain it to the reoccurring voice who tells us we are bitter and need to get over it.
Refugee
Refugee,
Thank you for thoughts and kind words. I can’t tell you enough how theraputic this site has been for me. As much as I hate to say it (because I know he will probably read it) God bless JP (and Catalyst) for starting this site. I know they have been under tremendous fire for what they are doing (I was actually working with JP when he first started the blog and was being threatened by that twerp lawyer on the hill) but I say the critics be damned. I can’t speak for others but this site has let me vent some things in my life that seriously needed to be vented and I am grateful for it. My only regret is that I didn’t think of the damned thing myself. There. I said it. Don’t let it go to your head JP.
I am thankful for your empathy and candor in responding to my thoughts.
that he performed a few miracles, preached a few sermons and then disappeared for about 14 years? What was he doing during that 14 years that we have no account for. I went to Bible College, was all “on fire for Jesus”, preached some hot sermons, prophesied, was prophesied over, etc, etc. and then got totally turned off and burned out. I wonder if the same thing happened to Paul. He gets radically saved, gets all “on fire for Jesus”, preaches a few sermons, performs a few miracles and then disappears. I wonder if it was because something happened. We have no records of him writing any books of the New Testament or anything spectacular for 14 years….that’s a long time. And Moses. He gets thrown out of Pharoh’s palace for killing a guy and then we don’t hear from him for 40 years. And why the hell was John the Baptist hangin out in the desert eating bugs and being a recluse? I don’t know, sometimes I wonder if I am in my 14 years. What valuable lessons were taught to these people while learning to herd sheep, make tents, or catch locust in their own personal wildernesses. Maybe all of life’s lessons are not intended to be gleaned from in front of a pulpit. Do I think I will never play music again or ever join a church again? No, but I don’t see it happening for maybe another 10 years and maybe in the interm I will gather and glean lessons that will shape me into what is needed when that time arrives. It’s either that or I am just delusional but in either case I have peace which is more than I can say for when I was in the church. That was the long way of answering your questions but then again that’s my style.
As far as what I am doing about music and the whole season thing I am not sure. Right now I am not going to church and I really don’t hang out with any friends (part of the reason is that I am part owner of a small business and have just really poured my life blood into it). I am sure my mother and father see me as back sliden (along with a handful of other people) but I am not so convinced. It’s funny, sometimes I think about Moses, John the Baptist and the Apostle Paul from the Bible and I think about these periods of non-recorded activity that we have and wonder what they were doing during those times. Did you realize that after Paul got miraculously saved after falling on his ass off his ass
I like how nothing on this page represents a biblical approach on how you should act in disagreement … Hence the slander, backbiting, etc. But yet you accuse Judah of his un-ethical teaching methods… Everything you write seems a bit Pharasiacal!
The Bible clearly says in many passages what you are to do if you disagree with a person or have ought against them… And no passages say to go behind their back and slander them… The problem is most of you probably dont even have enough guts to say these things to his face. Hence the hiding behind your CPU.
Good goin fellas… I am sure God is well pleased with how you speak of Judah. You will give an account.
The truth hurts, doesn’t it?
Joe,
How is a public blogsite for the world to read…”behind their back”?
And for the record, I have had lots of meetings with lots of people and am clearly not afraid to say anything…
Set it up.
Mr. “Joe-E”
Talking about guts and saying something to some one’s face….I like how alot of the critics for this site come on with a ficticious or shortened name and get real “brave” as they perform a drive by, general smear of all the bloggers so they can just stereo type them and put them all in one basket. But why stop with us? Why don’t you go on a rant about Martin Luther. Now there is a guy who didn’t use the “Biblical” approach to address his offenses. What was this whole 99 theses posted on the door crap? Where does he get off? Yep, you go get ‘em tiger! Put another feather in your cap for Jesus and move on to your next crusade. A word of advise in th future, you might start out by asking “has anyone tried going to these people to list their offenses?” before you go shooting off your mouth. Alot of the people on this site have gone to many leaders several times to address the concerns, myself included. I think the fact that this site was developed was spawned from the very fact that many people in churches today feel powerless to effect any change in the system because they tried using the ‘proper channels” as you suggest and were consistently shot down. Hey, but what do I know; I’m just an embittered blogger licking my wounds. Thanks for setting us straight, Bro.
OK Dave… Sorry to offend about the procedure to go to someone you have ought with. But I really dont care what Mr. Luther did if it is outside of the word of God. And if you guys have gone and met the leaders, more power to you… But you cannot avoid this.
“Ye have heard that is has been said,”Thou shalt love thy neighbor and hate thine enemy.” “But I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hurt you, and pray for them that spitefuly use you, and persecute you. ” -MATTHEW 5:43
“But if you forgive men not their trespasses, neither your Father will forgive yours.” – MATTHEW 6:15
I dare say that these blogs do not represent a love toward the leaders of the city church… Maybe a simple… “We should pray for the leaders of the City Church.” Would be a bit more Christ like blog…Hence His prayer for those nailing Him to the cross… “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.” – LUKE 23:34
And if you say you have forgiven… Then maybe it is time to have forgiven, and then forget… And move on. But dont try to say you love them by slandering them… I love my wife, and hence I would never speak ill of her, or constantly bring up things in which she might have wronged me…
If and I stress “IF” you are still mad just admit it, and dont try and justify all the slander.
JUST LET IT GO… Dont try to play God, and if these people are wrong then let God be the judge of them… Not the bloggers on this website. If you dont like the beliefs find another church, and begin to build it rather than try and tear down an old one…
If you think what the city church preaches is false then that is fine… Do what the word of God says and be weary of false prophets and false doctrines… It never says to find the false prophet and tell the world… It mearly says stay away from them… And if you say this is a ministry to warn other people, let the Holy Spirit do that just as you think He has warned and showed you the corruption… Bottom line let God be God, and go spread a life changing word… WHy not get on a satanist blog page, and spread the gospel?
Joe-E,
Sweeping statements usually indicate you haven’t done your homework. If you had read this blog thread through carefully, you’d have noticed that along with the fierce debate, there were epiphanies, clarifications, apologies, and a peace settlement. What about that process is not Biblical? Just because it wasn’t done in a gooey, typically Christianese cheese way doesn’t mean it isn’t Biblical. Get a grip. Real life is about conflict and the resolving thereof if possible.
I think I’ll make a sweeping statement myself and say I am really sick of Christians such as yourself (sweeping because how do I really KNOW your heart with a short 3-paragraph ‘drive-by’ post?) that puke out legalistic garbage on other Christians just because you are ticked we don’t like the style of someone who claims to have disciples and wants to flaunt the fact he has good sex with his wife to those who aren’t married yet?
I have read the blog, and shallow paragraphs of people saying they have apologized doesnt compare or even make sense that you are still talking about it… You cannot get around the Word of God about forgiveness…
Your sayings of apologies hold little weight to the fact that you are still here writing about it…
hmmm, good idea. except satan is the one who tries to tell christians not to talk about anything and let God be God and he’ll take care of everything if they’ll just keep their mouths shut. don’t you know when christians say anything about anything other than the bible that they are being rebellious, independent and unspiritual? (so what if someone next to you is being abused or taken advantage of? shhhh. don’t say anything. remember, God will take care of it.)
Did you know that the same preachers who tell you not to ever say anything are also known to teach that God only uses people to do anything, that he has chosen to stay within those confines? Doesn’t it make you wonder if God gets tired of blowhards saying what pleases Him? What if he wants to move outside the box? Especially since the box is rendered ineffective by their choice to lift themselves up above others as having a higher callling than the rest of God’s children. He’s God and he can use anyone he wants to. So it’s not beyond possibility that he could be using this blog with its ‘shallow paragraphs’ to bring change. God uses imperfection all the time to get his points across. I’m not saying he is personally speaking through individuals on the blog; I’m saying he could be using the collective banter to bring things out that don’t need to be swept under the rug any longer. Maybe he doesn’t want things hidden any longer.
Just because people still talk or blog, doesn’t mean the process of forgiveness isn’t taking place. And who made you the governor of forgiveness?
I just love it when people don’t even know what the definition of slander is:
slan·der /ˈslændÉ™r/ Pronunciation Key – Show Spelled Pronunciation[slan-der] Pronunciation Key – Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. defamation; calumny: rumors full of slander.
2. a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report: a slander against his good name.
3. Law. defamation by oral utterance rather than by writing, pictures, etc.
–verb (used with object) 4. to utter slander against; defame.
–verb (used without object) 5. to utter or circulate slander.
Slander is a spoken offense. Last I checked, this blog is not spoken.
You probably meant to use the term LIBEL:
li·bel /ˈlaɪbÉ™l/ Pronunciation Key – Show Spelled Pronunciation[lahy-buhl] Pronunciation Key – Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, -beled, -bel·ing or (especially British) -belled, -bel·ling.
–noun 1. Law. a. defamation by written or printed words, pictures, or in any form other than by spoken words or gestures.
b. the act or crime of publishing it.
c. a formal written declaration or statement, as one containing the allegations of a plaintiff or the grounds of a charge.
2. anything that is defamatory or that maliciously or damagingly misrepresents.
–verb (used with object) 3. to publish a libel against.
4. to misrepresent damagingly.
5. to institute suit against by a libel, as in an admiralty court.
You might want to know that the truth is an absolute defense in a court of law to either slander or libel.
Source: http://www.dictionary.com
Child molestors always tell their victims to keep quiet about it.
Just an observation.
haha once again nice over exaggeration… You got me, if I saw someone getting beaten I would let it happen, because I believe God takes care of all… hah
I said GOD REVEALS TRUTH to people not man… So let us not force our revelation on people… Let God do that.
Try not to over-exaggerate that this time.
But I am done… you are the winner… ANd I am sure because you frequent this blog you have saved many people from the destruction of the City Bible Church…
Keep up the good work, and spread the saving Gospel of…”Dont go to that church, all they want is tithes, and to teach false doctrine.”
SO ride on evangelist of, ride on!
Sure you are.
Joe-E
Your voice just reeks of Rae. I don’t believe there are truly that may obnoxious people out there.
don’t you know you always give it away when you head into attack mode which is
often. You like to argue and cause strife –not discussion.
Saw through you bro! now come on and tell me its not true and we can go through another repeat of denials and then IP #’s as we did on all the other
posts. Not worth the time. Just an observation–your voice sounds the same.
Joe-E
If you are still reading, I wanted to quote one of my earlier posts to this site because I feel like I really hit on something that day and the issue seems to keep on raising it’s ugly head:
“….a point you are sorely missing here…is that the majority of the people you are going back and forth with on this site with GREW UP IN THE CHURCH. You are making a huge mistake by approaching them with your condescending bull shit and assuming you are talking to normal adults who entered Christianity on the same level playing field as (other Christians)… Many of the people on this site have come here to seek healing and mourn the loss of some of their childhood. We have come here to know we are not alone. We have come here to try to recover what was ripped from us in the cult like atmospheres we grew up in.â€
I want to level with you, cut the sarcasm and try to get through to you. I don’t think you realize how much harm you are doing when you make these posts. To my knowledge no one on this site has ever shoved this site down anyone’s throat; We come here on our own initiative to seek healing but here you are, coming to the site by your own choosing, and attempting to shove your doctrines and dogmas down these peoples’ throats. And in your own way I believe you are not doing it maliciously but with the best intentions and you some how think you are doing some good. I don’t blame you. I don’t. I used to do the same exact thing that you are doing and probably still would be doing it but for the grace of God. It was what I was taught. It was bred into me. It all makes sense when you are in the midst of it and your whole family is involved. I don’t know if you can see the hypocrisy in your postings though. You speak of love and forgiveness, compassion and other virtues and yet you post with such disdain for these people. We can all feel the sarcasm and venom dripping from your postings and rightly so; some one has stepped all over what you violently hold to be true and value and have been trained to defend. In my mind it is no different than the young middle-eastern boy who is raised with his mother whispering into his ear from the day he is born “Ala is God and Mohammed is his prophetâ€. He is absolutely immersed in the culture. His religion runs through his veins. It is to the point that his religion is his identity. When this is achieved it makes sense that he would strap a bomb to himself and run into a crowd of people and blow himself up. And in a sense that is what it seems like you are trying to do. In American Christianity today it is very common to have this same scenario only in a different setting. You become isolated in a certain sub-culture of religion until that religion is your identity. You go to church 3 days a week. Your radio station is Christian, your hair dresser is Christian, you go to a Christian school, your “Veggie Tales†are Christian, and so on and so forth. You are taught that your pastor is your spiritual advisor and instructed to never speak out against him or if you have a disagreement with him talk to him about it and if he doesn’t respond because you are not one of the bid tithers anyways you gotta just suck it up and take one for the team. Once your entire world revolves around this culture it makes complete and total sense to strap a doctrine bomb to yourself, grab a couple handfuls of scriptures, and go jumping right into the middle of a blog like this and let it blow. What you are actually doing is disrupting quite a few healing sessions with your insensitivity.
I am going to try something right now that I have little hope will work but I am going to try it anyways because I wish someone would have tried it with me. Please listen to me. I know you think you got it figured out right now and that’s cool but at some point you are going to realize that there is much more to life and living than those handful of scriptures you throw at us. What you are missing is that most of us here used to be like you. We have heard all those scriptures before; we used to quote them ourselves. They once were our mantras too. What scares me is when you make statements like;
“But I really dont care what Mr. Luther did if it is outside of the word of Godâ€
It shows a blind loyalty to some person’s interpretation of “The Word of God†and a total disregard for History and the need to learn from it. First of all, who’s definitive interpretation of “The Word of God†are you dismissing Martin Luther with? Because in order for that to be there would have to be only one interpretation of the entire 66 Books and we all know that the interpretations of the Bible are even more varied than the number of different denominations of the Christian Faith. I think very few people would argue with me that the Catholic Church did not need to be challenged in Martin Luther’s day. Nobody was doing it and so he stood up and did it while risking his very life. It should not be a matter of whether or not what he did fit exactly into your pastor’s definition of what the proper procedure was so much as whether or not he was taking a stand against injustice and down right evil. You made the comment:
“….once again nice over exaggeration… You got me, if I saw someone getting beaten I would let it happen, because I believe God takes care of all…â€
And I think I understand your point but you can not boil down the cult-like abuses of a church such as psychological abuse and brainwashing to a simple beating on the street. I assume that you meant that you would stand up for the innocent person receiving the beating but what would you do if you were convinced that the atmosphere that young kids were being brought up in was psychologically and emotionally damaging? How would you handle it; go talk to the church elders? What if they did nothing? What would be your next step? Where are your scriptures for the next step?
I doubt you are going to agree with me or even hear me on this but that is okay; I am not expecting it anymore than I would expect that guy in the middle east to listen to me if I pointed out that there are a lot of innocent people being hurt by his beliefs. Maybe you could just print out a couple of these postings and save them for a couple years from now when you can reflect on the value of your creeds and concrete absolutes and how they effect your attitude to other people and the World. My prayer for you is that some point the stupor will wear off and you will eventually come to value reason, history, and science, and common sense over the rock hard dogmas that you have latched onto.
Joe,
Can you see the hypocricy in your posts? Oh…you can’t…
It’s the part where you judge us and tell us to stop what we are doing because we need to “let God be God”…
See you think it is worthwhile to tell us to stop, we think it is worthwhile to tell them to stop. It’s a vicious circle, my friend.
You make a few valid points, but I would like to see if you could understand where we are coming from.
We are tired of watching “christians” get hurt by the church and blame God. Everyone who gets offended by the church is told to keep their mouth shut, because talking about “the Bride of Christ” is un-Biblical…this is crap.
For whatever reason Justin and I were “called” to stand up to the church, I’m not sure why yet, but it has been interesting.
I agree that there has been a lot of garbage written on this site, I am guilty of many things and am trying to change, but I am also sick and tired of seeing my friends walk away from God because on one is willing to take a stand against the “Church”.
This is for Dave Phillips… I appreciate you trying to help me… But I came from a church that was truly immoral… As in the Pastor stole money from the church account, and was caught in an affair… This man meant a great deal to me as well, I looked to him as a mentor and guide… So I have been there from a truly exposed corrupt church… And was damaged…
But I moved on… And I truly believe you have no idea who you are typing to, and I am not going to validate the life I have lived, and the things I have given up… You typed to me as if I were a 15 year old school boy… Not knowing my Bible. Trust me friend there is not an issue you can speak about in this area that I wasnt personaly hurt in. And the reason I was angered so quickly is due to the fact of how defensive people are on this site.
Not one who left behind a successful family business only to take my wife to Thailand for 3 year, and then Africa for 5 years living like a native… Studying the word for myself… And now pastoring and building a discipleship training school at my local church in Texas. Spare me the sorrow, you live and you learn and you move on… And yes it makes me extremely upset that “Christians get on here and sulk in sorrow.” Have you not heard if you leave a wound alone it will heal better… Maybe shouldnt keep exposing it. Or maybe you dont want it to heal? I just hope for your sake that you are 110% right about how you speak of The City Church. But it still doesnt make what is being done on this blog right. And at the end of the day, you still cannot get around the scriptues I cited… You must forgive, you must love, you must pray for them, you must bless them. SO instead of spending all this time on here… Go in your closet and pray for them if you want closure… And if you say you already have, do it some more. I am sure the Bible talks about rejoicing in your sorrows, and to take pleasure in reproaches, infirmities, persecutions, and distresses… SO you know what I say… PRaise God you were hurt and learned a lesson to not go to “Those Churches.” When you are weak He is made strong. (2 Cor. 12:9)
I suggest you take my advice… PRay for them, forgive them, let go, and move on.
Oh yeah and the cursing doesnt help your witness either… Might wanna read about what James says about a tongue that speaks blessing, and cursing.
Blessings… And have a great ministry here
[Comment ID #18873 Will Be Quoted Here]
Pay me.
You have a “calling”??
Says who? Yourself, a little birdy,friends….
Please forgive me for my sarcasm but I have grown tired of flippant “God speak”……You, in fact, might be called vocationally to amend the ecclesiological bankruptcy of the church but how bout some humility….
And what makes you so sure about your “calling”??? Just curious!!!
But I thought I was rae????…..
Let’s get things right!!! This blog is not about the gathering of the marginalized and wounded for “connectedness”; it is more profoundly, a parody of a brand of evangelicalism that exists in the western church…..
If bloggers have found healing in its satire, it is incindental!!!
The conversation,on this blog, is an attempt to correct a “heretical” orthodoxy, a wrong belief and practice found in church….
Though I believe many “contradictions” are embedded in the development of the theological view espoused by some, one thing is clear; this blog is a parody of the church……
And to all the suspicious out there; I blog under one pseudonym, cowboy……
If a pastor issues an alter call in the forest, does anyone hear?
Dave,
Did you know that Luther did not want to break from the church. Also, the ninety-five thesis, which revealed the the theological assumptions of the reformer, assumed the existence of “purgatory” and of “works” of merit……so I think yur accusation of “blind loyalty” has no merit because of the simplistic reality that Luther was wrong on many points……He was emotionally charged and developed many contradictions in his theology ….
Anyone else getting rain today?
Lots of it…
Cowboy,
Which text book are you getting this crap from? I never claimed that Luther was infallible or the second coming of Christ. He made alot of mistakes. (including advocating the drowning of the Anabaptists who came after him). But that is exactly my point, despite all the mistakes he made he pioneered a huge change and reform of the widespread corruption of the Church and left a lasting legacy. And who made you the end all supreme interpreter of the Biblical Texts? Please provide me with PROOF that “Luther was wrong on many points” as you state. All Bibical discussion is based on theories and speculations; I don’t know what makes one’s opinion more valid than another. I happen to not believe in Purgatory but do you have proof one way or the other of it’s existence? The simple point is this, when it comes to Theology, Philosophy, Ideology, etc. there are very few concrete things to be judged. We may never know how right or how wrong Luther was…..all we can truly evaluate is the repercussions of his actions which I would argue had alot of good in them. This is the point I believe JoeE is missing. He seems to be so staunchly holding to his beliefs and methods of dealing with “non-believers” that he is missing the outcome of his actions which I believe should be held in higher regard than some OPINION he has latched onto.
CB,
I normally just ignore you, because you aren't funny. However, I got a good laugh when I clicked on your name and the link took me to our site. Good work.
So, in honor of my first laugh, I'll gladly change my "called" comment to be "directed", "guided", "stumbled onto"…whatever you want. Just let me know.
CB RAE JOE-E
la la la la la the moment I see your posts –can’t scroll through
em fast enough la la la la la la la
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Who?
[Comment ID #19184 Will Be Quoted Here]
Cowboy is not Joe-E.
How bout reading the 95 theses, again!! The reformer assumes much about purgatory and merit and penance to a priest in this dogmatic letter…The 95 theses hardly was a call for a revolution……however, this protest letter which was fraught with incendiary language, was sent to the local Archbishop, Albrecht of Brandenburg; thus, making public a fued between the dominicans and augustinians which evoked more profoundly the reformational passion….
On another point, which is rather simple: How can you know that joe is so “dogmatic” if you are so confused about criterion for truth?!?…..If few things are concrete, how can you say concretely that joeE is wrong…..??? Isnt this an inherent contradiction!?!
I wonder what would happen if suddenly Judah announced he was bi-sexual? (No, I am not saying he is)
Cowboy,
You state:
On another point, which is rather simple: How can you know that joe is so “dogmatic†if you are so confused about criterion for truth?!?…..If few things are concrete, how can you say concretely that joeE is wrong…..??? Isnt this an inherent contradiction!?!
I don’t get it, who said I was confused about the criterion for truth and who ever said that dogmas had anything to do with truth? The dictionary defines dogma as:
1. a system of principles or tenets, as of a church.
2. a specific tenet or doctrine authoritatively laid down, as by a church: the dogma of the Assumption.
3. prescribed doctrine: political dogma.
4. a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle.
I think the key description is that last one “a settled or established OPINION, belief or principle.” Maybe you could clarify for me how truth relates to dogma and while you are at it could you set me straight on what the real criterion for truth is supposed to be?; it doesn’t seem “rather simple” to me.
In regards to having an opinion that Joe-E is wrong I believe it relates to Judeo-Christian values. The vast majority of people agree that it is wrong to hurt others without just cause. This is not the validator but points to the stability of Judeo Christian values which have historically stated “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” I don’t hold to these values because they are “truth” or because my pastor told me to. I think we should hold to them because they have been tested through thousands of years and have been proven to be a set of social guidlines that help keep society running smoothly. There we go, we have taken the abstract and made it concrete. Instead of enforcing the rules based on someone’s opinion, premonition, or revelation we have established a basis for judging it based on history and a proven track record. History has shown us that it is counter productive to cause harm to people when it is unprovoked so if it is not broken let’s not try to fix it; let’s keep on not huting people when there is no cause to. It’s really rather simple.
I was probing a little further and found this which I thought was very interesting:
American Heritage New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition – says
Dogma: A teaching or set of teachings laid down by a religious group, usually as part of the essential beliefs of the group.
Note: The term dogma is often applied to statements put forward by someone who thinks, inappropriately, that they should be accepted without proof.
Hmmmm……I hope my Karma doesn’t run over your dogma.
Wonderful and good job!!!
Truth is more concrete than we realize, isn’t it!! Although, I have to say that history cannot be the only criterion in the discovery of truth because of the simple fact that is flawed……In fact, truth sits outside the realm of time waiting to be discovered; thus, history cannot be the only measure of truth…..
And now to dogma….
Dogma is true insofar that it reflects truth. In other words, a dogma formed by a group can be true or false
if it expresses truth or error……We all have dogma, which are simple ideas that we believe to be true…..Therefore, dogma is bad if and only if it reflects something false and dogma is good if and only if it reflects something that is true and of course we are both writing very dogmatically, aren’t we????……
Also, dogma is more accurately a shared opinion held by a group……unfortunately, we scandalize this word to much……In my humble opinion……
Sorry for not clarifying —the voice of Joe-E and Cowboy and Rae
sound very familiar and its getting so I can’t tell them apart nor want to
see what they have to say—so i quickly scroll through their comments
this one’s a winner….
obnoxious…or just a little wittier and smarter then you? huh?! don’t confuse the two pal, just join in on the discussion.
but my favorite is….
wait, i thought you said we were all the same….hmmmmm, yet you also state you can tell us apart. which one is it Captain?!
happy to aid in prompting you to actually write something of interest though. usually your comments are such a yawn.
I like coffee. Not “Starbucks”, real coffee.
I’ll be honest…I rushed into marriage so I could have sex and it never once lasted more than 5 minutes. It was all based on B.T. teachings.
Ouch!!
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Sounds like a personal problem to me.
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I went to BT for several years and don’t recall being “taught” the how-tos of sex, I think it’s more of a “what comes naturally” type of learning process. If your husband follows the blog he’s probably humiliated at this point, so maybe you should seek the advice of a professional instead of exposing his short-comings (no pun intended!) on the web. Just a thought!
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Um… that wasn’t my story. I was reading through the comments and noticed that one and thought it was funny yet sad. lol She might wanna put some viagra in his stocking.
anyway, the comment was by BT Beauty.
Cowboy you sound exactly like someone we know who goes to
Capital Christian Center –do you attend there now –on staff or
as an intern? That would explain alot.
The pseudo intellectual comments are a give away -boring!
[Comment ID #19302 Will Be Quoted Here]
Cowboy,
Once again you have missed it. I was not giving the criterion for finding truth I was merely giving some guidelines for social interaction that I believe history has provided us with. What I believe is not new; it would be very close to what the Agnostics believed which is that Truth does exist (sitting outside the realm of time, as you state) but that it is impossible to know it completely. We may stumble onto pieces of the Truth but the unfortunate thing is that we will never know which pieces are the Truth and which ones are not; we can only go with what History seems to show works whether or not it is Truth. The scripture that comes to mind is the one in which Paul states that right now we see as though looking through a foggy mirror but he looks to a day when we will see everything in full. Whether or not you look to that same day is a matter of faith but even he admitted to not knowing the full complexities of Truth.
I must say that it concerns me that you seem to be so eager to rush to conclusions and sweep the next cosmic question that has been troubling mankind for thousands of years under the rug, dust your hands off and say “…and now on to Dogma….†I just don’t think this subject is that simple but for some reason it seems you have taken a few classes and read a few books and now feel that you can solve this issue and put it in a little box. I think you might find it useful to question the need within yourself to have the answer and have everything wrapped up and in its place so your beliefs can be secure. Where is that need coming from? Why would it be hard to say “I am not sure what truth is?â€
As for my comments on dogma, see my comments above.
And for the record, I don’t thing there is anything humble about your opinion.
Just thought I’d stop by to say… Merry Christmas.
I finally realized the worldview that I was dealing with now that I have read the post about dogma and truth… So now I really know I should never waste any more time on this blog
Blessings… And have a wonderful life
Bravo Joe-E,
You continue to amaze me. That was great how you took my own personal beliefs and plastered them all over every other single person posting on the blog to justify writing the whole thing off because you can’t cope with some one else having a different opinion than you. You nailed it on the head. That is what is wrong with this site: everybody has a world view that is just like mine. That is what you needed to justify bailing. This has inspiried me to paraphrase a scripture that comes to mind:
Matthew 7:18-23
18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21″Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out bloggers and develop many dogmas about what we thought you were saying?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Joe-E….what kind of fruit are you producing?
I wasn’t paying attention…
Is this the Fourth or Fifth time Joe-E has said he isn’t going to post here any more?
(ROTFLMAO!)
See what happens when you take time out for the holidays? You miss heated debates like this one. And Joe-E promising to leave again. So I guess a whole lot hasn’t changed; but I must say that Dave P has the patience of Job dealing with Joe and CB. Kudos Dave.
It was really great to read the post from RP :
Thanks for taking the time and energy, RP and Justin, and hanging in there. The blog has helped many of us. We’ve needed to know of other people on the planet who feel that simple Christ-like Christianity is worth defending and it’s helped us find our voices again.
K, bye bye Joe-EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!
Dave P
Good Lord, kido….u crack me up….
You are emotional, aren’t you!?!!
First, stop with the hasty generalization(s)……your sterotype of me-having a motive driven by a need for security- lacks in clear-headed insight……I have yet to state formally what I believe. Also, I have simply pointed out holes in your conversation….
Second, you remind me when I had to spend time with freshman in philosophy- I hope I don’t do that again-who get worked up into a “flurry”, but don’t worry you will come out of it……
And third, remember thinking is best done dispassionately….this maxim will get you far……..
Did you ever notice that sometimes a hot wind blows in the dead of Winter?
Cowboy,
I don’t see it. I have reviewed my postings to you and can’t find the emotion…sarcasm,yes, but not emotion but you obviously know alot more than I do (oops, there’s that sarcasm again).
Sorry if you feel that I have committed some generalizations but all your postings have been in 1st person and you have made most of the statements as though they are facts, such as:
Truth is more concrete than we realize, isn’t it!! Although, I have to say that history cannot be the only criterion in the discovery of truth because of the simple fact that is flawed……In fact, truth sits outside the realm of time waiting to be discovered; thus, history cannot be the only measure of truth…..
Were these just theories you were pulling out of thin air or what. Forgive me if I have inferred that you actual believe what you are saying; my bad.
Lastly, here’s a maxim to put in in your little book.
Cutting with the elitist bullshit when trying to discuss philosophy and religion will help you get your point across much more.
Thanks Kido.
Rolling….
I share that sentiment Dave. I believe all we go thru translates into art or ‘sermons’ or empathy for others who’ve gone thru similar things. Thanks for the window into your world. . .
From one musician to another, I wish you the best and may your music thrive and bring comfort and joy to many. Here’s to the potters’ wheel, making most of current seasons, and bearing fruit in the land of our suffering eventually. Whatever comes next, we can’t let the religious voices silence or stifle our music flow EVER. Soooooo, Happy 2007 !
Toxic,
Cheers, Mate. I appreciate the comments and wish you the best in your musical ventures as well. I really hate to throw in this quote because I am not a Dead Head AT ALL but I think it is appropriate
“Not all who wander are lost”
Here’s to the John the Baptists in their wildernesses! Here’s to the King Davids hiding out in their caves! Here’s to the Josephs doing time at Potiphar’s house. Heres to the Moseses herding stinky sheep out in the desert. Not all who wander are lost; sometimes we are just figuring it out and getting our heads straight before we go charging again into the fray.
Thanks.
Amen to that –love your point and by the way how come no one every preaches
on these phases of a person’s life.
Maybe its not success enough over the top spirituality of the la la world kind?
Sorry but real Christianity is lived in a real world of ups and downs.
Thats how we mature not the flat line rise to the top of the corporate culture
of Christiandom so often betrayed in a rousing Sunday sermon.
We’re ‘posed to store up reaches in heaven? No wonder Judah is always telling people to “put your hands in the air!”
‘Scrupe
schneidt1.
I really appreciate you getting down to the nitty gritty and calling a spade a spade and then offering solutions as well as pointing out the blaring abnormalities.
I wish your solutions could be shared with the entire Christian community as a reminder of what we are all truly called to do! So well said and so NEEDED to be heard, received and walked out. I’m sure it would truly be heard and received by those who are already involved in the authentic work of the Gospel or who are at least trying to position themselves to do the Work.
Unfortunately, those like Judah who really need to change and who are fooling themselves into thinking they are ‘world-changers’ and ‘dragon-slayers’ would feel you are amiss at pointing to them as needing to change at all. They would just think you were jealous of their earthly riches or that you have some kind of an unresolved offense toward them. They would also suggest that you have a problem with authority since they truly believe they are God’s delegated authority thus not to be questioned or held to a standard other than their own. That’s how they sum up any suggestion that isn’t favorable toward them and I suppose that’s how they manage to live with themselves and sleep at night.
To those of you who don’t agree with sex being talked about from the pulpit, stop being superspiritual. Where are your leaders? What souls have you won, discipled and sent out? Where is your fruit?
And to the others who intend on bashing God’s anointed, well, Jesus had haters too. I’d be more concerned with meeting God on judgement day rather than acting as if you are God in order to judge others.
Ang, stop being a follower.
Ang,
I think we may all be a bit surprised when we find God’s true thoughts on judgment when we all leave earthly life for eternal life with Him. Sounds to me like you are judging those you think are judging so according to your own words, I guess you’d better be careful.
Just because Judah is visible to you in your world does not make him God’s anointed to anyone and everyone. And to compare him to Jesus is really stretching it but that’s beside the point.
This misperception of who God’s anointed is baffles me. It’s one of the ways scripture is twisted to manipulate people into thinking that no question can be asked of a teacher preacher or prophet.
Are we all really so gullible to believe God expects us to listen to a leader with no question asked? I’m not talking about taking the other side to just be annoying, or questioning every little thing just because we can; but, if you beg to differ with a teaching, expecting more clarity shouldn’t be automatically tossed aside and labelled as rebellion and independent thinking (like that’s bad to think for yourself). Aren’t we the ones who will be held accountable for following a person blindly just because it’s easier to let someone else do our thinking for us??
God’s anointing is offered to all of His followers equally. Judah doesn’t have a special unique relationship with God that isn’t offered to the rest of us. Each person is anointed to do the work of ‘the ministry’ in whatever form God leads that person. Judah is no more anointed than you or any of us are. He is not some Prince of Light high above the rest of the Christian community that we’d never disagree with him or so special that he’s appointed by God Himself with the prestigious title of God’s anointed. Jesus is God’s Anointed. period.
(I capitalized some of the words in this post since it got a little long to help you skim it better)
By fruit I suppose you are wanting those of us on this blog to show you how many NOTCHES we have on our belts — i.e. people we have led to the Lord — so you can decide whether or not we are acceptable and anointed? Personally, I’ve had the privilege of leading people to the Lord but only because many seeds were planted first long before I ever became a part of their lives. I’ve also planted lots of seeds along the way.
But, Ang, by asking us where our fruit is implies that you are judging our worthiness as a Christians because some of us have spoken up about your world. Believe it or not, many of us have been negatively affected by it in one way or another.
Getting back to FRUIT. It really can’t happen without GOD’S ANOINTING. But I really want to emphasize that anointing is not about a speaker who revs up our emotions so we’ll go out and be that Christian we want to be till the next time we get our ‘fix’.
The Holy Spirit will anoint us when we do something He’s asked us to do in His name even when no one else can see it. He anoints or blesses us in it so it so we are able to get the job done. Ya, that may happen when someone speaks or sings publically, but it also happens when you take COOKIES to an elderly neighbor or you MOW THE LAWN for a friend who just had knee surgery. Or if you are NICE to the kid at school everyone else overlooks or when you have to take a TEST after studying all night. Or when you MAKE DINNER for your family or when you GO TO WORK everyday so you can pay the house payment so your wife and children have a place to sleep at night. Oh ya, and if you are a youth pastor at a church, anointing happens when TAKE YOUR OWN PHONE CALLS and it’s from a needy questioning not-so-spiritual kid who has to listen to you talk on Wednesday nights even though it’s about the 5th time he’s called so far this year.
God knows we need his help every day, so HIS anointing is given FREELY to any of us who ask for help, and maybe even when we don’t ask.
ANG, this post may have been a little long to read, but if you did read it, I hope you think about this the next time you hear Judah at your youth service. Not saying he has doesn’t have anything good to say, but just saying you are anointed, too, to do whatever it is you do in your daily life and that’s what church is supposed to be for: to help teach you how to be an effective Christian.
TCR returns to the blog with a bang!
Welcome back, TCR!
Sam
Maybe every church should have a Christian Church Idol Contest with a Simon-like judge who can narrow down the ‘candidates’ by telling them their anointing rating on a scale from 1-10. Then the church people vote on who they like best as preacher and worship leader! Each church could have it’s own dynamic-duo Idol Fest.
oh ya, I forgot, churches already do that. dang.
[Comment ID #25059 Will Be Quoted Here]
Hiya Sam!
ya, got a little windy there. one thought leads to another and certain words (and phrases) set off my sense of injustice, ya know?
Sshintzel,
I find you’re logic profoundly lacking in Biblical exegesis- a systematic discipline that extracts the orginal intent of the text. In fact, I think you should go back to school before you argue so vigorously:) Anyways, I INSIST that you’re logic is flawed because of the following:
1. Jesus had no formal training! Now, I do not have the time to tease out the nuaced tension found in Jewish scholarship in 1st century Palestine; in other words, the robust bias and conflict rooted in Judean and Galilean education. But what is noteworthy and more to the point, was the considerable prejudice practiced by Judean rabbinic pharisees towards “outsiders”. This academic snobbery was invigorated by and competed with the rigorous standards embodied by Bet Sefer and Midrash, Jewish schools found in the Orthodox Triangle (Galilee). Further, this Judean bias was exacerbated by the Pharisees in John 7:45-53, through their explicit denial of Jesus as a legitimate prophet because He did not conform to the academic standards set by the religious majority. In part, the rejection of Jesus, was shaped/influenced by the false asumption that He was ILLITERATE and from Galilee. How then do you justify you’re argument about Judah simply because he has no formal education? What about conforming to a more Biblical treatment of discrimination/judgment; in other words, evaluate one’s life more holistically by judging their fruit!
2. Why are you so obessed by Judah’s inflections? It’s okay to express a dislike for one’s presentation but to redundantly insinuate that his voice/tone/inflection in some vague way confirms, categorically, that he is fake, is well fallacious and silly! Remember, the authority of the apostle was questioned because of his TONE and INFLECTION in II Corinthians 10:1-18. Paul insisted that the Corinthian standard was “superficial” and was inextricably wrapped up in a Hellenized philosophy. Paul also insisted that the Kingdom of God does not consist in what you eat or drink, an idiom that starkly contrasts the physical and spirtual dimensions of life, but in righteousness, peace, and joy. Quite simply, one’s critique should first address the ethical and spirtual dimensions of life and then the physical.
To miss this is to trivialize the essence of Christian ethics…
3. Does God love everyone or just an exclusive demographic??? I insist that Jesus would scandalize you’re theology of love. The rabbi/prophet/messiah/savior vocationally spent time with the poor, the farmer, tax collectors, the rich aristocrat, wealthy religious leaders, and so on…Jesus is more radically inclusive then we assume or realize. What about Nicodemus, or Zacchaeus, or the rich young ruler, or Simon all of whom were profoundly wealthy. Jesus spent significant time with them!!! Let me remind you that the love of God is grounded in the following,” For God so loved the world….It is quite clear that Jesus surrounded Himself paradoxically with all kinds of people, in all kinds of social environments. In order to be faithful to the text, I remind you that God inclusively loves all… So why would it be faithful for Judah to follow you’re advice, if the former is true- He is reaching a demographic that presumably needs God and hopefully you are doing the same….
If we desire to shape our world and be faithful to this vocation, then “all” or “everyone” shoud have the Jesus story shared with them!! We severely misunderstand our mission in this world; in fact, we truncate the narrative of the Gospel, if we do not understand this perspective.. The poor need the Gospel, the rich need the Gospel, the republican and democrat need the Gospel, the sick and needy need the Gospel. This tension must be maintained in our theology.
[Comment ID #25054 Will Be Quoted Here]
Who are you debating? No is saying that Judah has a privileged line to heaven. We established that centuries ago with the Protestant Refromation:)
Cowboy (Austin),
Welcome back to the blog. I sincerely hope that now that you have more time you will take me up on my Cowboy Challenge.
I’d hate for people to think you were a troll.
[Comment ID #25065 Will Be Quoted Here]
Are you the only one who gets to expound on religious garbly gook? If you had read Ang’s post, you’d see I was speaking to her inference that Judah is God’s anointed. Duh.
And I wasn’t debating, I was expounding on a thought. There’s a difference.
At least I post in human, I mean understandable, terms and in smaller bits.
Cowboy! How we missed you…
…not
Wow – I haven’t had a headache like this since the last time Cowboy posted!
Sam
Ang,
Don’t worry about these comments. Judah is a faithful, and passionate, and wise youth pastor. Just keep on following Judah as he follows Christ and listen to those who you respect and know…
Wow! And here we go yet again! Its fun because rhetoric always make me think
about what I believe and this religious rhetoric truly goes to the heart.
I have a new reality show —its called Church Receptionist–
-try to answer the phones at these insitutions for just 1 week and you ‘ll be surprised what you hear. I’ve done it and here are just a few calls:
Line 1 — What the bank is calling back again –and the finance people still haven’t returned your call about the multi-million dollar loan due in 2 months–okay I’ll put you into voicemail.
Youth pastor from church across town calling our youth pastor for the 15th time about doing a citywide conference —I’m so sorry they won’t ever return your calls -they just left for Salon Rodeo Drive–lets try their voice mail just one more time –or how about talking to an intern.
Senior Pastor from the happening church across town calling our Senior Pastor —I’m so sorry he never returns your calls! What his secretary didn’t either –well could I put you into his voice mail or how about his assistant’s assistant
assistant?
A homeless person on line 5 –they need help with their electric bill before it gets cut off but I have our church interior designer on line 7 wondering which new state of the art sound system we ordered.
The florist is on the phone claiming we haven’t paid their bill in over 3 months and they are cutting off our credit –okay into voice mail to the finance people again!
****This is exactly a day in the life —
How you treat people will be your annointing.
Wow! You’re pretty quick there, Schnitzel. Don’t be a Wiener.
‘Scrupe
Maybe…
Is this what you plan to say to Judah Smith and any other “pastors” out there shaking their money makers?
@Austin
1. Jesus may not have been formally trained, but he had the advantage of being Divine and had a direct connection to the thoughts of God. I don’t know of any pastor with that, so I require credentials from anyone who wants to teach me anything. I went to college and I studied under professors who were credentialed. Why would I expect anything less from someone who would want to be my spiritual teacher? The fact that Judah couldn’t hack a real college makes me doubt his intelligence, then I listen to one of his hackneyed sermons and I’m convinced.
2. Judah’s inflections are a calculated and pretentious way of making himself look more like his heroes. If he were doing it to fit in with the people he was trying to reach, even Apostle Paul would approve. But sadly, it is just an attempt to be cool in his own eyes.
3. God loves all demographics (everyone), but the Scriptures have a heavy emphasis on how we treat those “less fortunate”. Part of CCC’s fault in this area is that they over-emphasize monetary wealth and equate it with spiritual health. In so doing, they teach their members to shun the poor rather than helping those who need it most.
I hate the word “anointed”.
In Pentecostal circles, this word is used to describe some special spiritual property of a person such that when they are “anointed” they are endowed with God’s power beyond normal means. This term is flexible enough to cover many ideas, anything from natural ability to superhuman prowess, but is most often used to describe approval by church leadership. It’s that last one that makes me ill. Too often, I have seen the term bandied about to denote someone who has found favor with the pastor or some other church leader. Rather than saying “good job”, a lot of hoopla is made about how someone is “anointed” in their “ministry”. Even worse, the word is used to promote people who are not the best person for the job, as this is the trump card of spiritual qualifications for ministry. More than likely, they are the only person the pastor could find that was willing to work for a pittance, little gratitude, and with a “I won’t rock the boat” attitude. Too often logic and good sense go out the window when this word appears. That’s not to say I don’t believe in the sovereignty of God or the Holy Spirit in choosing people to do His work. I just think too often it is used as an excuse for a lack of judgment.
One of the problems with this method of church leadership, is that it creates an environment of “haves” and “have nots”. If you don’t have the anointing, then you don’t receive the same affirmation by leadership that the “anointed” receive. The seemingly arbitrary use of the word has led a friend of mine to call it the “duck duck goose” method of church leadership. Everyone sits in a circle trying to be as pious as possible in the hopes that some church leader will tap you on the shoulder and say “Goose!” – er, I mean “anointed!” Some people never get to be geese in these environments, and ultimately it stunts their spiritual growth and hurts the church. It would be better to enable every person to function in the gifts and abilities as God has given them, and thus benefit the whole body of Christ.
All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 1 Cor. 12:11,12
The other major problem with “anointing” is that it creates an environment where the “anointed” are untouchable. It is nearly impossible to question their mandates, and doing so will get you labeled as a rebel, even when they are clearly in the wrong.
“Anointing” is a farce. Unless you’re going to conjure up a few miracles to back up your claim, don’t you dare assume anything about what God thinks about you in terms of spiritual power and authority.
We love to laugh. Thanks for my daily dose.
Listen Frank, I’m glad you didn’t go any furter in your post – there’s just no reason to clench your buns like that. Perhaps you should log off the net once in awhile and spend some time at the Ball Park? At any rate, do put on the whole Armour of God before diving into hot water here. Also, avoid drinking in Bar-S before posting or you might come off like a Brät. You should also avoid using all caps, they embroil readers in harmful debate, flaming and grilling one another, making readers hot under the collar and reducing them to barking dogs. Still, I’ve seen wurst behavior, so you’re not the biggest wiener we’ve seen here. I’m impressed you mustard the courage to post and relish your thoughts. Just remember to lay off the sauce and act your age.
‘Scrupe
PS., I see you’ve taken a 2nd identity. Another 8 or so and you’ll ketchup to me.
Has anyone else read this quote under the YPJS (Youth Pastor Judah Smith’s) video?
I’m sure glad Judah’s around to help God out…man that Jesus was really having a hard time till YPJS showed up.