Latest Installment
Posted on July 20th, 2006 by catalyst into the Uncategorized categoryGiven recent world events, I have decided to add another installment in our long running "Watch" series. Currently, we have City Bible Watch and Candace Watters Watch. But given the recent conflicts in the Middle East, I have decided to add another fun addition to our Watch Series: Apocalypse Watch.
Evangelical Christians everywhere are absolutely giddy at the thought that the world may be witnessing the beginning of the apocalypse. And Christ's Return is right around the corner.
So stock up on that grain, get your bottled water ready and start scouring the newspaper for signs of the Anti-Christ. The tribulation is coming.
And frankly, there is no better person to kick off Apocalypse Watch than recent commenter Generation Church, who shares this sage advice.
In the end, it doesn’t matter what any of us think, but what God thinks. Pretty soon you are going to see God moving throughout the world. There are going to be major earthquakes, volcanic activity, and catastrophic hurricanes. This is because we as people have tried to kill God, and follow our own lusts. I hope many of you are found not straddling a fence, but standing on the side of God.
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July 20th, 2006 at 5:47 am
Who let Pat Robertson on the blog?
July 20th, 2006 at 5:59 am
Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!
July 20th, 2006 at 7:09 am
“In the end, it doesn’t matter what any of us think, but what God thinks.”
Well actually it does matter what we think, because what we think affects our actions and our actions matter. And God nows our every thought and wants them to be pleasing to Him. Psalm 19:14
“Pretty soon you are going to see God moving throughout the world.”
God is always moving throughout the world, and not everyone sees that or will.
” There are going to be major earthquakes, volcanic activity, and catastrophic hurricanes.”
Earthquakes, vocanoes, hurricanes. check,check, check, All are already happening frequently among us.
“This is because we as people have tried to kill God, and follow our own lusts.”
Kill God? Maybe silence and supress fundamentalist christians, but kill God come on. Following our own lust has been a faithfull practice of man since Adam and naturaly is progressive.
“I hope many of you are found not straddling a fence, but standing on the side of God.”
I hope that many are found not just standing on God’s side but walking in communion with Him.
Generation church, please read your bible, pray, think about issues and ask questions its ok, don’t parrot your pastor but be a barean Acts 17:10-12 Our greatest need is to know Jesus more and more.
July 20th, 2006 at 7:33 am
Yep,
Apocalypticists are scary. Especially since they have such an influence on politics and policy making. It is time for a better story.
July 20th, 2006 at 11:40 am
When people figure out there isn’t going to be a “rapture”, I wonder if they’ll try to return all their ‘Left Behind’ books to the store?
July 20th, 2006 at 12:16 pm
“In the end, it doesn’t matter what any of us think, but what God thinks.”
Survey says? ERRRRRRT. Sorry, you failed Christianity 101. Game over, thanks for playing.
July 20th, 2006 at 12:52 pm
AMEN, John 444!
July 20th, 2006 at 1:17 pm
Um, maybe we should try to AVERT the apocalypse…..anybody thought of that? The way I see it, if this is somehow “destined” or “in accordance with prophecy”, no effort of anyone’s will turn it aside. But, if this can be avoided (or at least mitigated or delayed) and we CAN save people’s lives, then we should at least try, don’t you think? The way it looks to me, working for an end to this craziness is a win-win situation from a Christian perspective. How ’bout we call for a cease-fire in Lebanon?
Here’s a website where you can do it:
http://www.usalone.net/cgi-bin/oen.cgi?qnum=656
I don’t think anyone really wants to see World War III break out. I don’t think anyone really wants all these people to be killing each other. Yeah, the issues are complicated, but I have to believe that there’s a better way, and that we aren’t likely to find out what it is if everyone’s bombing the shit out of everyone all the time. Justice is NOT being done here, and it won’t BE done as long as the volleys go back and forth and people keep dying and avenging the dead.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God.
July 20th, 2006 at 3:19 pm
Do you suppose there’s anyone among Islamic peoples trying to “avert the apocalypse”?
July 20th, 2006 at 6:57 pm
If I could keep a straight face doing it I’d love to go from mfi church to mfi church selling CBC Apocalypse Survival Kits, or CASKits for short. What would I need to put in each kit?
Just for starters, how about:
1. French press with 50 pounds of pre-ground Starbutt’s house blend
2. Case of styling mousse and hair dye to keep the tips frosted
3. Case of matches and case of candles (don’t let Satan phooof it out)
4. A copy of Biblical Principles For Releasing Financial Provision (we all know Jesus doesn’t want me to be poor during the apocalypse)
5. A copy of NetWise (because Satan is going to use the internet to divide and conquer the church through blogging)
6. Some strobe lights and a generator
What am I missing?
July 20th, 2006 at 9:29 pm
John444,
Please reassure me that your comment is sarcastic and not as racist as it read to me at first glance. Thanks.
July 21st, 2006 at 5:05 am
Then glance again. It wasn’t a comment, it was a question, so you can keep your “racism” card to play another day, OK?
Islam is a religion that has proven most hostile to Christianity, Judahism / the west in recent years. Would you have felt better if I’d said “people who practice Islam” instead of “Islamic peoples”?
July 21st, 2006 at 6:36 am
Islam is a religion, not a race.
This may be beyond the scope of this little blog (making fun of CBC), but a unilateral cease-fire in Lebanon is not the answer and no amount of clicking on that link will sway Congress when just yesterday the House almost unanimously approved a resolution backing Israel’s right to defend themselves against the terrorist organization Hezbollah which is financially backed by rogue nations like Iran and Syria. (Both Islamic by the way, and commited to war and the destruction of Israel.) I can appreciate your wanting to be a peacemaker, but sometimes the price of peace is having to put down an agressor. If Cuba decided to launch missles into Florida, would we sit by while the international community asked for “restraint”?
July 21st, 2006 at 9:28 am
CASKits. That’s freaking brilliant! hahaha
July 21st, 2006 at 9:35 am
Being peacemakers is a noble goal, but demanding a ceasefire in Lebanon isn’t the way to go about it. The real troublemakers are too scared of the political and military fallout of direct attack on Israel, so we get Hizzbolah “freedom fighters” vs. Israel when the reality of it is Syria, Iran, etc. vs. Israel. Almost everybody knows who is bankrolling this thing behind the scenes and until the puppetmasters are made to answer for their troublemaking, you won’t get peace.
That’s the problem with conflict by proxy. You aren’t dealing with the core issues because you’re not dealing with the real players in the conflict. Instead, you get some front organization with a nice mission statement that puts a more sympathetic spin towards their side of the conflict.
July 21st, 2006 at 11:11 am
FROM BEST OF CRAIGSLIST:
Top Ten Signs You’re a Fundamentalist Christian
——————————————————————————–
Date: 2006-06-02, 1:10PM MST
10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.
9 - You feel insulted and “dehumanized” when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.
8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.
7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the “atrocities” attributed to Allah, but you don’t even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in “Exodus” and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in “Joshua” including women, children, and trees!
6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.
5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.
4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs — though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most “tolerant” and “loving.”
3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in “tongues” may be all the evidence you need to “prove” Christianity.
2 - You define 0.01% as a “high success rate” when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.
1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.
July 21st, 2006 at 12:02 pm
I used the term “racism” because that’s the way John444 phrased it. Racism can be a “card” to play, and I understand that, but it’s also a real problem….and y’all seem to be a good example of that. You’re saying things that are downright ignorant….wholesaleing the practitioners of a religion that also espouses peace as a core value into a category of “warlike people” because of your own prejudices and ill-informed beliefs. Yes, this thing IS being bankrolled by forces different than what it appears, most likely — but has anyone checked a casualty count recently? And who are those Lebanese people who are dying? The ones in the line of fire, many of whom want nothing to do with Hezbollah or anything it does. And now, a ground invasion is in the works. This is bad stuff, people….and as far as I recall, a “ceasefire” means that the fire ceases for BOTH sides.
I think there’s a better way….and I think it’s possible to be just and decisive and strong and even righteous and “Christian” without blowing things up. We have to deal with this from the top (what’s happening right now) down before we work from the bottom (the underlying issues) up.
July 21st, 2006 at 12:27 pm
Jiminy,
Let’s say you manage to get a ceasefire agreement between Hezbollah and Israel and the IDF leaves Lebanon. What assurances do we have it won’t happen again? What happens if/when another rocket is launched at Israel from another country? What happens if another group of terrorists crosses a soverign border and kidnaps people?
July 21st, 2006 at 12:35 pm
You’ve raised my ire, Jiminy, because you accused someone of racism and even after pointing out the distinction, you seem set on a witch hunt which now includes me. You then call me prejudiced and ignorant because I have an opinion on the Middle East conflict THAT DOESN’T AGREE WITH YOUR OPINION. (It always strikes me as funny when liberal types scream “prejudice” to anyone who doesn’t agree with them.) If I may borrow a phrase from urban lingo, “You don’t know me!”
I’ve been following the history of the Middle East closely for years, and I’m not having a knee-jerk reaction to the situation. I didn’t call anyone a “towelhead” or a “heathen” and that they deserve to be die just because they are Islamic. If you followed the history of this situation at all, you would know that for nearly 18 years, Israel occpuied the border of Lebanon to control the acts of the Hezbollah. In 2000, they finally pulled out at the request of the international community, and everyone cheered. Especially the Hezbollah because they’ve had the last 6 years to rearm themselves with the aid of Iran and Syria. The Lebanese government has been impotent and/or unwilling to disarm the Hezbollah, which in many people’s opinions is tantamount to supporting them (remember the Taliban in Afghanistan?). Now they have kidnapped soldiers and have launched thousands of rockets and missles into Israeli homes. This is nothing less than an act of war. For me to agree that Israel has the right to defend itself, and that a cease-fire would benefit only the Hezbollah (tantamount to negotiating with terrorists), then suddenly I am a (gasp) racist!
I am not saying I want another war. I don’t want World War III any more than anyone else. I never said the Lebanese children deserved to be killed in the streets, but you make it sound like I’m cheering every bomb dropped on a schoolhouse with my racist and ignorant opinion. Cut out that bullshit, OK? I think this is a great opportunity for the world to show compassion to those innocents, and I agree that Christians should be the first in line to do so. Just because I think that some crazies need to be shown extreme force doesn’t mean I applaud the slaughter of innocents.
I criticized your campaign to petition Congress, because as I pointed out, they’ve already made up their minds on how the U.S. will respond and your petition means squat. Sorry if that makes us all racist and ignorant.
As far as the religion of Islam “espousing peace”, I’ll believe it when I see it. Call me ignorant (again) but I don’t see the Muslim world as a whole denouncing these acts of “warlike people” or making a stand against them. At best they are complacent, but most often they are complicit with people who preach such hatred. As the old saying goes, “If the shoe fits…”
So you are saying that Israel should ask the Hezbollah to stop shooting first before they can get to the real issues of why they are bent on the destruction of Israel? Should they invite them over for tea and a chat?
Sorry, Jiminy, I applaud your compassion, but your logic fails here. And then you go about insulting people that don’t agree. I can’t help but think you’re the one acting out in ignorance on this one.
July 21st, 2006 at 12:37 pm
No, it isn’t. That’s the way you’ve chosen to play it now that you’re having to defend your hasty remark at my expense. Even your original comment said that was just your ‘first glance’ impression, which suggests upon closer reading, you weren’t sure, hence your question. Why are you STILL trying to play the racism card with me?
If you aren’t careful, I could come to be racist about ALL people who live in Boulder. I already hate those Boulder County DCFS shit-birds.
July 21st, 2006 at 1:33 pm
Right…..and I’m the witch hunter. Ok, whatever. It reads to me like this discussion is a train fueled by emotion, not intellect. I didn’t call anyone a racist. If you examine what I’ve said more closely, you’ll see that I’ve criticized commentary and appearances, NOT people. For me, this is a basic tenet of what it means to debate on a blog….we talk about ideas, because the people (unless we know them and interact regularly in person) are merely theoretical.
As for Islam advocating peace….well, it does so as much as Christianity does as a philosophy. There are no clean hands in this world, and they’re as much within their rights to call us war-mongers as we are them. We just see it our way because we’re us….and to be honest, yeah, I think it’s kinda short-sighted and childish if that’s all we’re willing to consider.
Fez…..if we negotiate a ceasefire, that means that the fire ceases. What happens afterward is up for debate, but it seems to me that a ceasefire needs to be the first priority. Otherwise, we’ll never know if something can be accomplished without blowing things up.
I’m not ignoring the back story here, I’m just trying to say that we should deal with what’s happening right now in a way that minimizes the violence that’s happening right now. It’s like dealing with kids that are pummeling each other on the playground….step 1 is to stop the pummeling. The steps beyond that DO involve looking at the circumstances, but from an impartial, non-emotionally driven standpoint. And, seeing as this is more than a playground scuffle and there are a lot of lives at stake RIGHT NOW, it seems even more important to put a stop to the killing so that a just solution can be reached.
July 21st, 2006 at 1:49 pm
“There are no clean hands in this world…”
Umm, Joshua Pitka over on the Judah Smith Speaking at Generation Unleashed apparently has clean hands, as does Judah Smith himself.
July 21st, 2006 at 2:53 pm
Poor Jiminy … IQ of 81 and not smart enough to keep quiet about it … trying to keep up with John’s whopping 444 … she’s in over her head … with FICM and Fezzik circling for the flush …
July 21st, 2006 at 2:59 pm
I’ve accused you before of talking out of both sides of your mouth, but this time you amaze me at your gift for double-speak. Bill Clinton would be proud.
I’m done arguing with you if you can’t even admit to what you yourself said.
July 21st, 2006 at 3:07 pm
You’re being idealistic in a non-idealistic world.
Lebanon is being invaded because that’s where Hezbollah hides, among civilians. You let them off the hook here and they’ll keep their military infrastructure on the border intact and fire off some more rockets when the spirit moves them. Those rockets kill innocent Israelis, so are you will to trade one set of innocents for another?
The problem with your solution is you’re dealing with groups that have generations of hatred for each other. It’s very wrong that innocent people are being killed in this thing, but sometimes life is about trying to make the best decision when all the choices lead to something bad. I’m on the side for disarming and terminating the aggressors in this thing so we lessen the possibility of dealing with this rotten choice in the future.
July 21st, 2006 at 6:48 pm
john’s comment was not racist by any means. What a stupid thing to say, even if you disagree with the comment itself.
Second, Lebanon would have welcomed an Israeli ground invasion to rid themselves of Hezbollah since they couldn’t do it themselves. Lebanon is a free democracy but was/is too weak to risk civil war. That is why Lebanese military forces have not deployed to defend the southern border. This may change because of the attacks on civilian targets.
Third, why attack non-Hezbollah targets? That doesn’t make any sense. They are killing Christians in those attacks as well. They acknowledge that Iran and Syria are the puppetmasters, so why shell innocents?
Fourth, the CASKits need a magic eight ball to go along with it. Since most CBCers can’t seem to make decisions for themselves, they turn to “counselors” for guidance. The advice is usually something completely arbritrary and non-Biblical and is given only to yank on their leashes. They can tape “Glinda” on the front to make them feel better, then ask, “I’m 35 now, do you think I can start dating?” *shake shake shake*
“Outlook not so good”.
July 21st, 2006 at 9:02 pm
Magic 8 ball
Let’s assume that the apocalypse claims Frank; members would need spiritual direction. How about a “Talking Frank Doll”? With each pull of the string it might say:
* It is not by grace that one enters the kingdom of heaven, but by tithing.
* One. Two. Three. Four. Five. Six. Seven. Eight. Nine. Ten.
* Turn to the person next to you and say “I’m a finisher”
* How about a nice Father’s day sermon?
* Retire the debt.
* Let’s go to Starbucks.
…
July 21st, 2006 at 9:21 pm
FICM:
The diffierence between me calling people racists and calling attention to the appearance of racism in commentary lies in my use of the word “seem” in the first quote of mine that you used. I understand that it’s subtle, but I did say it that way on purpose. Please try not to cry before you’re hurt……or at least before you read carefully.
Fezzik:
I happen to think that idealism serves the human race well when tempered by other forces. It just seems that this situation is too complex and risky to be settled “the old-fashioned way”…..it seems to me that things are very likely to degenerate. As you say, these hostilities are older than our own history, and as others have said, no one really even knows who threw the first punch anymore AND the Hezbollah people who appear to be the villain figures to us (because again, they probably have reasons that make perfect sense to them) are entrenched amongst people too weak to get rid of them on their own. That’s the way it looks, that’s what we’re able to find out under the circumstances, and maybe you’re right that in the end, it’s the greatest good for the greatest number. I just don’t think that shooting first and asking those questions later is the way to go. Like you say, it’s only a matter of time until this all resurfaces again in a similar form. I still think the human race can do better than this. Yeah, I’m an idealist….I’m ok with that. The voices of people like me are not the voices that are ruling the world.
“The sceptre shows the force of temporal power
The attribute to awe and majesty
Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings
But mercy is beyond this sceptred sway
It is enthroned in the hearts of kings
It is an attribute to God himself
Therefore man’s earthly power shows likest God’s
When mercy seasons justice.”
I understand your points, and I can respect your perspective insofar as it is informed and fair. I’m ok with calling for peace in times of war, and I’m ok with giving y’all hell about it….and I’m happy to field your criticisms of my outlook if you’re happy to respect mine.
July 21st, 2006 at 9:46 pm
A talking Frank doll would not be able to properly contain enough ego to be realistic. You’d need a Macy’s Day Parade size balloon for that.
No, dolls would be reserved for Frank’s lapdogs. For instance:
A Jack Louman doll would say, “Church Family, God is like an ATM. God is like an ATM.”
A Marc Estes doll would say (based on his new image), “The first rule of CBC is, you do not talk bad about CBC. The second rule of CBC is, you do not talk bad about CBC. The third rule is, if this is your first day at CBC, you have to tithe.”
A Ken Malmin doll would be awake and alert until you touched it and then would immediately collapse limp from being slain in the spirit.
Anyone that disagrees with what I just wrote is a racist.
July 22nd, 2006 at 6:24 am
You’re delightfully bad.
Oh, one of those, eh? I used to visit a Vineyard church out here for the prophetic conferences, where one of their leaders had visited Toronto and brought back the anoinking. Before sessions started, he’d walk around and touch people or shake their hands, and everyone before me got weak in the knees or fell to the floor. When I just stood there, unaffected, the guys countenance changed completely - to a look of shock, even hatred. I was labeled HTR (Hard To Receive). HTR is almost as offensive as being called racist.
Seriously, the coercive tactics of some charismatics, and the labels applied to people who don’t submit to their chicanery are very hurtful. Anymore, I’m of the opinion that most ’slayings’ are self-induced (the need to conform / submit to religious leaders), or are physically forced on people. I was in the front row at a prophetic conference in KC (2001?), and witnessed one ‘evangelist’ shoving people backwards, hard. Having only ever seen ’slayings’ from the back, I couldn’t tell that people were being shoved down. It was really sobering, and made me feel for the genuine seekers who are being taken advantage of.
Graham Cooke has a good explanation for those who aren’t visibly slain in a message that contrasted Hiddeness and Manifestation. Simply put, there are people who are hidden in / by the Father, whom He accords protection from the religious shenanigans of man (Psalm 91:4). That those who are ‘hidden’ in the Father aren’t easily slain is simply explained - they are already slain - the walking / continuously slain, if you will - because they are crucified with Christ and thereby hidden in Him. How do you ’slay’ someone who is already slain?
But for those whom church is a part-time game, being slain is momentary, a thrill to be sought.
Oh well - enough off-topic rant. Though I do suspect from having read here for months, that CBC has abused people over the whole ’slain in the spirit’ / hard to receive thing. Hope what I’ve shared helps someone.
TTYL, ya racist.
July 23rd, 2006 at 1:33 am
John444,
Please reassure me that your comment is sarcastic and not as racist as it read to me at first glance. Thanks.
They ushered people out of Brownsville for not falling over stupid during their false “revival”. I admire your conviction for standing in the face of evil. There was a clip I saw that had the worship leader telling people to “Check their brains at the door” and to “accept what they saw as the Holy Spirit”. Of course Paul says “Test all things, hold to what is good” in 1 Thessalonians 5:21, but what does that matter? The Holy Spirit is making crawl on all fours and barking like a dog.
It’s amazing to think that Peter Cartwright spoke out against this kind of nonsense back in 1801, and John Wesley even before that. At his own revival people were displaying “gifts”, only NONE of the pastors present attributed them to the Holy Spirit. An excerpt from his own revival about the “gifts”:
These kinds of behaviors came from people, he says, who were “weak minded, ignorant, and superstitious persons.” He comments further that the gift of prophecy “was the most troublesome delusion of all” because it “made such an appeal to the ignorance, superstition, and credulity of the people, even saint as well as simier.”
Actually, this isn’t a complete threadjack. Pentacostalism was always about gifts, prophecy, and demon possession first, Jesus last. Lately they’ve been adding eschatology to spice up the mix. I’m surprised Hal Lindsey doesn’t have a permanent booth set up at the CBC lobby for book signings. $$$
July 23rd, 2006 at 6:52 am
Yes, I think so. The subject of prophecy was real troublesome for me. The notion of receiving lines forming to visit the house prophets, with their silly ego stroking and prosperity jive really bothered me. Many of them are “cold readers” I think, or are more tapped into the human spirit rather than the Holy Spirit. The so-called ‘prophetic e-lists’ really upset me with their conflicting back to back words; one promises grace and revival, the other judgment and destruction. And no checks and balances for what never came to pass. And the big-name prophets for hire, who are brought in to speak at conferences, who lock arms with the pastor and exhort the congregations to ‘follow this man of God’ - ugh.
In time, Revelation 19:10 clarified prophecy; the testimony of Jesus is the spirit (essence) of prophecy. And where Jesus is the “way, TRUTH, and life”, prophecy became for me nothing more, or less, than Jesus truth. Anyway, there was a new found peace when I turned off the modern so-called prophets and e-lists, and started walking and talking with Him alone. No conflicting words with that approach.
…
As for the Hal Lindsay’s, Jack Van Impe’s, Tim LaHaye’s … they have sewn SO much yeast into the body of Christ. Millions of Christians rendered ineffective / impotent by constantly fixing their eyes/hope on a future escape from reality, instead of living in the present for Jesus. One rapture-centered BBS gave me the heave-ho when I used the rapture scriptures IN CONTEXT to disprove the rapture. Their BBS had a ‘check your brains at the door’ policy as well. People were joking, even betting, that the rapture would be “this September”, around the ‘feast of tabernacles’ or something like that. Now it’s years later … and as far as I know, the same people just fixing on a new date. What a terrible way to live.
I believe the born-again / spirit-filled are already raptured. The Bible teaches us that “the old is gone, the new has come”, that we are no longer “of the world” but are now “citizens of heaven”. So there is clearly a spiritual reality that is not evident in our physical existence. As far as this world and heaven are concerned, as one born again and spirit filled, I’m caught up in a sort of ‘limbo’ - I’m neither fully here (my spirit is there), nor am I fully there (my body is here). Spiritually speaking, my spirit is “caught up in the clouds (of witnesses) with Christ” (1 Thes. 4:17)
‘Raptured’ describes my spiritual condition; though my body is still here. Perhaps it is best said being raptured fully (spirit and body) is a process, taking a lifetime. Though I do believe it will one day culminate, on the ‘day of the Lord’ (1 Cor. 3:13).
To the Jewish believers (Messianic Jews) who lived through the fall of Jerusalem, and who were slaughtered and fed to the lions, who saw Caesar enter into the holy of holies in the temple and demand to be worshipped, it would be absurd to say they never suffered through a ‘tribulation’. In fact, EVERY believer who truly follows, and submits to the cross, will experience tribulation, because they are no longer of this world, but are a new creation, and the spirit of anti-christ is still murdering the son of God, who is incarnate in every born-again believer. In a sense, the anti-christ crucifies the Christ in us again and again and again, trying to eradicate His presence in this world. And in this way, the world sees the Son of Man lifted up again and again and again …
And so when we are truly crucified with Christ, and the Father raises us up again as He did Christ, aren’t we lifted up to heaven just as Christ was, hence, ‘raptured’?
Somehow, I think un-regenerate religious people recognize that we are ‘lifted up’ with Christ. Years ago, there was an old lady who was always trying to form prayer groups, who called and tried to coerce me into joining her prayer group, saying “you’re a spiritual man and owe it to the community” or something. I was really put off by the guilt-trip and manipulation, and asked: “since you recognize my gift for prayer, tell me please, may I pray in tongues in your prayer group?” She literally barked “NO!” The spirit took over at that point, asking through me “by what spirit to you bind the Holy Spirit”, and as I’ve heard several people do over the years when confronted in truth, she started stuttering, finally recovering and saying “I, I don’t know!” She resumed arm twisting and manipulation, saying finally “You need to come down to our level”, and I replied “it’s been many years - when can I expect you will rist to my level” … now in the physical, that sounds ego-driven. But on the spiritual level, you have someone born-again and spirit-filled talking to someone who isn’t. Spiritually, I am with Christ in that cloud of witnesses, and I think that the people who are not born-again, can see that on some level, and plead with me (and anyone else spiritually with Christ), to come down again.
I imagine it’s the same for anyone who after being born-again and spirit-filled / baptized, and are led to leave their old anti-charismatic institutional denomination church. Those who remain behind plead for the return of the departed, who can’t fully, because the are of a different spirit now. There were people who told me that my money and talent was welcome in their church, but I was to check my gifts, and thereby the Holy Spirit, at the door.
I think the problem with Linday, Van Impe, LaHaye, is they all have a temporal / linear view of time, and fixate on Revelation as a single future physical event, rather than an ongoing spiritual reality, unfolding individually in the lives of believers, and working toward an eventual culmination on the day of the Lord.
One dear old brother in the Lord put it this way:
Revelation HAS happened, IS happening, and WILL culminate.
…
FFTM, don’t know if that’s the way you see it, but at this mile-post on the path for me, that’s what I have. Still just a ‘dim view’ (1 Cor. 13:12) I know, but a little more clear than yesterday.
July 23rd, 2006 at 9:38 am
Well, it’s nice to see that we’ve discarded the unsettling realities of the world in favor of discussing what’s been happening in the petty political domain of the Christian ghetto. All hail insular small-mindedness….let’s all stick our heads in the sand and debate about Toronto, Brownsville, the Vineyard and a whole lot of other things that don’t matter. Good plan. Ignore the real issues, reassure everyone that we’re all deeply spiritual, intellectual souls delving into the truest Word of God and working day by day to argue over the right shade of eyeliner for the Bride of Christ. Oh, and definitely take the time to scorn the opposition. Those people are just drinking the liberal media’s Kool-aid and saying that racism is wrong and more pervasive in all of our own minds (and policies) than we’re willing to admit. Definitely shout down anyone who tells you that war isn’t the answer. Of course war is the answer. It’s always worked before.
Whatever. Enjoy yourselves.
July 23rd, 2006 at 10:26 am
For someone who so readily accuses others of being racist, you sure paint with a broad-brush, Jiminy. You’ve displayed more of the attitude that gives way to racism than anyone else here has.
July 23rd, 2006 at 2:41 pm
Like a washed up, punch drunk boxer that doesn’t know when to quit, here comes JiminyCricket81 for another beatdown. Why do you worry about things you can’t control over your losing your eternal soul? Do you not read the Bible? Matthew 24:
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,[a]’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
In the meantime, afdad afdadsfwe adfasdfasds asdfadsf, oh look, I just spoke in tongues! The Holy Spirit did that to me. Look, Frank just touched me on the forehead. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, slain in the spirit.
Matthew 12: 30 “He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 31 And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
So go ahead and cry about the Middle East Jiminy. Jesus already told us what is going to happen 2000 years ago. Your future has already been written, in this life and in next.
July 23rd, 2006 at 10:24 pm
MarcEstesMidLifeCrisis:
So, you’re saying that it’s God’s fault that I’m telling you you’re a lunatic? Predestination of the kind you’re describing is sort of like blanket amnesty…doesn’t really strike me as your speed. Thanks for playing, though.
John444:
Um, we’ve been through this. I didn’t call anyone a racist. So, my not calling anyone a racist has led to me being accused of a racist mindset. Ok, yeah, that both makes sense and causes me to lose sleep at night.
Thanks for playing to you, too.
Like I said before, y’all are riding a train powered by emotion and not intellect, and it sure seems to me that I am NOT the one who just can’t stand to hear anything to the contrary of the point of view I espouse. Fezzik’s the only one here talking sense and fighting fair….meaning that he’s making substantive arguments. I happen to disagree, but I’m totally happy to have a conversation about it, to entertain contrary views even if I don’t change my mind about them.
Y’all would be a lot more fun to talk to if you didn’t present yourselves as God’s gift to God’s dogma in God’s white anglo-saxon protestant world. And before the tantrums begin, notice the wording: “present yourselves as”……that means that I’m saying I think you’re all better than that, and letting you know that I’d be truly thrilled for you to show it. I think you’re all better and bigger people than what you say to me would lead me to believe. I know I’m a whole hell of a lot more of a sweetheart in person….
July 24th, 2006 at 5:13 am
Obviously, you are riding the red wave.
Not to mention your double-mindedness.
Grow up.
July 24th, 2006 at 7:23 am
Jiminy,
You did accuse people of making racist comments. Oh, excuse me, it just seemed like you did, but you really didn’t, so I guess we should back off. My apologies. You appear to have a gift for saying two things at once and you seem to be able to ignore me when I call you out on it, making you look like someone who can’t support her own argument. But I guess it is only an appearance, so it doesn’t really count. I’m sure you really are a “whole hell of a lot more of a sweetheart in person”.
I employ sarcasm here because your own sarcastic comments about us discussing other issues than your own pet idea is rude and self-indulgent. You started this with your comment (aka seeming to accuse someone of a racist comment) even though it was off-topic of the orginial discussion of people who exploit an Apocalypse mentality. I have made two rebuttals that addressed all of your points, and even acknowledged the disparity between our viewpoints and commended you for your compassion. So when people get back on-topic, you berate them for not jumping on your soapbox with you and discussing your point of view endlessly? Firstly, the on-topic discussion is important to a lot of us because we feel it hurts the Church and is a valid concern. Secondly, we never minimalized the suffering of those in the Middle East by discussing another topic. Thirdly, unless you’re about to join the Red Cross and fly to Beirut and ask us all to join you, it seems a bit hypocritical to make us all stop what we’re doing just to talk about it on someone’s blog, especially just because you want us to do so.
But, apparrently, my comments aren’t “talking sense and fighting fair” and I have yet to make a “substantive argument”. Your last rebuttal consisted of calling someone a lunatic and then saying “thanks for playing” (twice), without any other reason than that you completely disagree. Wow, I am awed by the power of your argument! Again, I think you’re being hypocritical and petty, and I’m calling you out on it. If you’re not going to live up to the standard you ask of others, then please, SHUT UP!
July 24th, 2006 at 8:21 am
You don’t hear me and you’re obviously not interested in hearing me.
So instead, I suppose you can just bite me. Let the mutual back-patting begin. Yet again, we’ve defeated the premenstrual, irrational, liberal feminist with lots of anger and no common sense.
Enjoy the circle jerk, boys. If the women in your lives had any sense, it’d be the only action y’all ever got.
July 24th, 2006 at 8:32 am
I’m going to shut down the comments on this blog post. I appreciate all the enlightened commentary, but I think at this point you all are going to just have to Agree to Disagree. Agree to Disagree.