Researchers from the University of Pennsylvania recently asked themselves that question and decided:
Someone offered this rebuttal:
We didn't need scientific proof to know tongues are of God. If you would free up your mind, you too could experience the gift that is from above. It is an experience of faith. Acts2:38 read it and ask God for faith to understand it, not intellect.(Act 2:38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Another Commenter challenged the assertion that everyone should speak in tongues:
Sure, Acts 2:38 says that, but if you take a look at the new testament as a whole, there are two points.1. Speaking in tongues was ONLY done to facilitate translation. ie greeks could understand phoeneicans. It was NOT made up gobeldy gook.2. Only the apostles had the power to speak in tongues, or lay on hands so that others could speak in tongues. Since no one BUT the apostles could pass it on, no one could have the power to speak in tongues today.
Good question. I’ve heard people speaking in tongues and then heard someone give an “interpretation”. Thus, the speaking in tongues must be legitimate, right?
Haha. Right.
The problem of course is that the interpretation could be pretty much anything, and is usually along the lines of:
Have we not all hear this many many times before? These “interpretations” are 99% very generic and I my personal opinion is they are *rarely* actually from God.
That being said, I do believe in the gift of tongues and interpretation, although I believe it is rare and specific to a purpose. Just like prophecy and other gifts of a similar nature.
If speaking in babbly-gook makes you feel better about your relationship with God/Jesus, or gives you a nice emotional high from disengaging your brain and letting your mouth run off (I’m not talking about the preaching!), then good for you. I’m certainly not going to say it’s NOT from God.
At the end of the day.. I don’t think it really matters *unless* it is causing people to look at the general church like they’re a bunch of raving lunatics.
I still find it amazing that churches like CBC, who advocate speaking in tongues so strongly, can COMPLETELY IGNORE 1 Corinthians 14. Because it’s obvious that they teach and do the opposite.
And to reinforce what Henri said:
So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?
Oh boy … first time I heard tongues was around ’78. I was in a Presbyterian church and had never heard of it – other than the mention in 1 Cor. 13 (tongues of angels) – always just considered that a form of poetry. But what I heard in ’78 was convincing enough that I read countless books on the subject, most I dismissed as BS – like – to receive it requires faith – so ask for it, believe you have received it, and start babbling to prime the pump. Argh.
I wanted it and prayed for it, but then ran into some tongue-speaking zealots who said I didn’t have the Holy Spirit if I hadn’t spoken in tongues – which turned me off to the gift – rather – the fact that I’d never met a tongue-talker who didn’t exalt himself for having it. One I remember arguing with – he made so much of the gift – and I pointed out that 1 Cor. 14 (?) passage suggesting we should seek after the greater gifts and that tongues was the least of the gifts – a sign for unbelievers. I asked the guy “how many people would come to a concert of you speaking in tongues”? I was doing regular concerts then for audiences up to 500 and so argued that I had the better gift as a musician/songwriter because it benefited so many people, whereas tongues just edified the one guy. His reply was “you just don’t get it”. What an ass.
Finally, I did receive the gift of tongues in ’99. At first it was a wonderful and edifying gift. I couldn’t wait to be alone so I could pray in tongues. But after awhile, the newness wears off, the buzz of praying in tongues is no more, and it assumes its rightful place as a communication tool (for lack of better words) to pray. In fact, I only use the gift now as led/moved by the Spirit.
I’ve heard the people who claim to have the gift, who speak one word or phrase over and over. One woman I heard just said “Ibbidi Ibbidi” … the other had fluent language, somewhat like spanish.
When I first had the gift, I prayed every waking moment for 2 weeks. The language had several different sounding languages, among them a beautiful Japanese-sounding language, until it finally seemed to settle on a somewhat slavic-sounding language. There is some repetitiveness of syllables (my ear recognizes some repetitive sounds), and the praying often seems to end with what feels like praise, and a word that sounds like “Eshnei” (esh-nee-eye).
The biggest thing that tongues does for me, is bring internal peace. There are times when praying in english that I feel agitated that I can’t find the words to pray for whatever I’m feeling. If I pray in tongues, it addresses the agitation and leaves me with peace when the spirit (leading to pray) releases me.
One neat thing happened several years ago – I attended a conference in KC – and during the worship time I heard a woman behind me praying in tongues – and her language sounded like mine – down to the ‘Eshnei’ that ended her prayers. I wanted to meet her after the session, but she left during and I never saw her again.
I don’t think tongues is necessarily a human language, rather, just a gift from God for communicating directly to God or praising Him, or both.
As for interpretation – I don’t know that I’ve ever heard the real deal. The tongues gift I have seems to be for prayer-closet use. And I don’t understand the difference between a public-use gift, and a personal/private prayer use gift.
1 Cor. 14:18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.
Shows the importance of speaking in tongues if Paul is telling you to shut the f*ck up in church.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast that which is good.
If only charismatics knew how hard the original apostles had to work to distance Christianity from pagan religions that specialized in the “free your mind” crap.
arguing about tongues is funny
Some one interpret this for me :
Sherota check forlotsa Moo La La La Lotsa Moo La Lashe titheromba she wrota Westa Side Camposa Sherota check forlotsa moo la la latte lotsa latte Dama Dama Damazia-latte. He-rota, sher-ota, we-rota checka latte guilta cursa malachia
Please run it through the person sitting in the front pew first.
MarcEstes…I misread the first line of your last post.
I thought you were pulling a Jonah and screaming how much more tongues you speak than me!!
My bad!
I read this about tongues:
“Glossolalia: This is the most commonly meaning of “speaking in tongues.” This term is derived from two Greek words: glõssai, which means “tongues” or “languages,” and lalien which means “to speak.” It is observed in some tribal religions and within some Christian denominations.
To the outsider, hearing someone speaking in ‘tongues’ is like hearing so much gibberish.
Most Christians who speak in tongues believe that they are speaking in an existing language. However, it is not similar to any known human tongue.
A person speaking in tongues is typically in a state of religious ecstasy and is often unable to understand the words that she/he is saying.”
I say, “Well…duuuuhhhhhh!”
One of many reasons that led to me leaving the church is this very issue. Shortly after I stopped attending PBC, I started going to a college group at Montavilla Baptist Church, and was introduced to a different interpretation of the Acts verses on speaking in tongues from what I had been taught in my home church and CBC/PBC. Well, after discussing my alternative beliefs with staff at CBC, I was verbally shut down & told that those theological beliefs were not acceptable. I was never able to have a discussion about the differences of interpretation with any of the staff members I attempted to converse with on the subject, because I was instantly (and I mean instantly) shut down & dominated into submission in a manipulative manner. I’m not saying any names. I don’t care to be in an environment where the majority of pastoral leaders are completely incapable of entertaining a discussion about another point of view.
In sum, I gave up on both sides of the debate, and currently, I rarely think about the issue of to speak or not to speak in tongues at all. It has little to nothing (yes, nothing) to do with my relationship with God. Honestly, I feel this way, because that has been my experience. So, for those of you out there that want to post about how you’re not “spirit-filled” unless you speak in tongues or attend a “spirit-filled” church (one you would say that practices speaking in tongues), I can tell you that I do not speak in tongues and haven’t attended church in almost ten years, and have been more blessed & ministered to outside the church than when on the inside. On the odd occasion where I have attended church in the past 10 years, it has been to churches that do not practice speaking in tongues, and it hasn’t made any difference to me at all.
Having said that, this is my experience, and mine only. I completely understand if tongues is an important part of your own spiritual journey. All I’m asking is that you understand my experience & others that are with me on this as well. And please do not assert that we are not spirit-filled or that churches which do not practice tongues are not spirit-filled. This mentality leads to a church perspective that is narrow-minded and divisive. These are attributes of which the church could use a LOT less.
To Those Narrow-minded Individuals in Leadership at CBC that Led Me Right Out Your Doors, Never to Return:
We all want to be heard & understood in this life. Take some time to understand a person different from yourself.
–Karli
The pursuit of the gift of tongues brought me more heartache and grief than anything else – because so many make it out to be a badge of honor.
It is said that ‘tongues is a sign for unbelievers’ … could the unbeliever that tongues is a sign for, be the person who receives the gift of tongues? I struggled deeply with ‘belief’ before I received the gift of tongues. And tongues are an ever-present sign of God’s love for me. If I have doubts, just pray in tongues and my doubts are dealt with.
The thing to remember Karli – is in 1 Cor. 13 – which says more or less that in the end, when all things are said and done, when we’ve matured and see Christ clearly, the need for the gifts passes away, and what remains is faith, hope, love. If faith, hope, and love are the ‘end goal’ of our growth in Christ, why then the focus on the building-blocks of spiritual gifts, such as tongues? It’s just a tool to bring me to faith, hope and love.
Not to mention the end of 1 Cor. 12 (?) wherein Paul asks “do all speak in tongues?” – the answer is NO. And also that tongues is the LEAST of the gifts. Far better to have love, hope, and faith … and wisdom.
I’m sorry you’ve been made to feel any less than a child of God by those who emphasize the gift, over the Giver.
Has anyone ever heard jack louman speak in tongues? lol…
He stands at the front of the church, facing the congregation with both arms outstretched, eyes open, looking at everyone going… “babababababababababa”
I always feel like joining in “… black sheep, have you any wool? yes, sir, yes sir, three bags full”
Machine gunner, eh?
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I am having more fun speaking in tongues than all of you!!! God has given me the gift of the Southern Drawl Tongue. Ah do declare, that we are witnessing the supernatural, Colonel Fitzwilliam. Yee-haw!
1 Cor. 13:8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.
Some say the “perfection” is the Bible meaning that when the Bible is completed the need for prophecy (and speaking in tongues) is finished.
I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.
-1Corinthians 14:5
If anyone speaks in a tongue, two- or at the most three- should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret.
-1Corinthians 14:27
While some might make the case that the gift of tongues is not necessary, the gift of tongue wagging is clearly still in operation.
I think I prefer the latter. At least, I understand what people are saying.
Actually – the word translated to “perfection” is better translated to “maturity”.
In context, Paul is writing a very immature church at Corinth, and he’s telling them to ‘grow up’ and quit the fighting, etc. Hence, the notion of the need for tongues passing away has more to do with being mature in Christ and therefore living a life of ‘faith, hope and love’ (the greatest of these). After all, the gift is given for the edification / building up of believers. And to say that God gave it, then took it away when the catholics ratified and cannonized the Bible, makes God out to be a fickle-giver.
To that end, the Bible also says:
For the gifts and the calling of God are without repentance. (Romans 11:29 DRB)
In otherwords, He does NOT take back what He gives.
The gifts remain until the Church is complete.
I should say that the gift of tongues does not pass away; rather, an individuals need of the gift passes away (fades away) through maturing in faith, hope and love. Corporately, the Church needs it until the Church is complete, mature, etc.
At summer camp (Twin Rocks) I used to pretend I was speaking in tongues by saying “hum batter, hum batter, hum batter” over and over. It may not have been genuine, but it kept the counselors and speakers from laying hands on me and screaming for God to visit me. Just one of the many ways to pass the time during one of the 24 daily mandatory chapel services.
I liked to use the quotes that I could retain from the movie “Dances with Wolves”
the indian languages always kept me from “the laying on of hands”
it’s so strange, now that I look back on it all… I would start spreaking tongues louder if one of the pastors was approaching so they would continue onto one of the quiet ones…. I was terrified back then and I didn’t even know why…
man… that stuff is like borderline abuse
I remember at Twin Rocks I didn’t know how to fake tongues so they put their hands on my head and pushed back and forth pretty hard. I freaked out and my survival skills kicked in and I started speaking gibberish. Everyone was so pleased. I now have PTTD…Post Traumatic Tongues Disorder.
On the few occasions when I’ve driven past the campground in recent years I’ve always got a creepy feeling, like I was driving by Camp Crystal Lake or something.
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I so get that feeling too!!! I’ll even take the long route to avoid that stretch of highway…. my mother and sisters ended up being volunteers for a couple years there at Twin Rocks!
They could never understand why I dispised that place so much…
Tongues should not be pushed on minors and laying on of hands technically is against the rules of minor/adult relations
Did you know they built an enclosed bridge across the highway to walk through? No more running across the highway like idiots to get to the beach…that was half the fun of it.
“Kill her mommy… Kill her… Don’t let her get away mommy… Don’t let her live. I won’t Jason. I won’t.”
Half the fun and half the allotted recreation time. What kind of summer camp has only 3 hours of recreation in the afternoon? Every summer I begged my parents not to send me, only to be force-marched into the youth group van/bus/cattlecar.
John 444, Jack Helser,
You should totally put your songs “Song For Daddy” “Bumper Sticker..” “Don’t Be Decieved”.. “Fire Insurance” (is that you on the pick and fiddle Jack???) I love that sound!!! ” on myspace!!!!!!!!
that would be awesome
Oh please… I don’t go to CBC anymore for several reasons, but I went to Twin Rocks three summers in a row as a teenager, and it wasn’t “creepy” or evil at all! I have very fond memories of that place – it’s all in how you “choose” to remember. Are you saying you didn’t have any fun at all? For the most part chapel time was usually a good time to pass notes to your “boy-of-the-week” since we weren’t allowed to sit next to the opposite sex! I know that sounds very shallow, but teenagers are immature and for the most part we weren’t too concerned with what was right and wrong about the sermons. During church services I’ve always been taught to take in what is good and not worry about the rest – no one is perfect, pastors included!
Don’t forget guys, it’s not necessarily about what happens “to” us but what we do in response. That’s life. We could all bitch and moan for days about how we were “wronged” for this and that, but do you honestly think that kids outside the “CBC Bubble” don’t deal with being disillusioned and disappointment on some level? At least we all had the opportunity to go to summer camp.
My husband wasn’t brought up in a church atmosphere and he never had the camp experience. I’m 200% sure that he would much rather have been part of the CBC bubble going to camp and retreats, having the OPPORTUNITY to make good life-long friends, than to be drug around to a zillion different schools all over the US with different step dads all through his childhood. Honestly, we all sound like a bunch of spoiled brats.
You get creeped out by driving past the old camp site? Be happy you don’t get creeped out by driving past your childhood home remembering your mom getting beat to a pulp by your step-dad.
Tongues or no tongues, too much hype or not enough hype, fake accents or down-to-earth speakers… I’d take PTTD over what my husband experienced any day!
Sorry folks, but THAT’S reality.
John444 – Maturity is the most common use of “perfection” as is completeness. I said “some” people because of its use in describing the Bible such as James 1:25 “But he who looks into the perfect law of freedom, and continues, not being a hearer who forgets, but a doer of the work, this man will be blessed in what he does.” but I agree it’s used far less in that manner.
ChurchGirl’s comment makes a compelling reason for camp: “Camp, it’s better than spousal abuse!”
I feel if you have survived something you have the right to bitch about it. I’m a summer camp survivor and a spousal abuse survivor. I suffered through both and I believe I’ve earned the right to bitch about both. Not because I want people to feel sorry for me but because it is how I work through it to a better healing. I believe everyone here who suffered under CBC deserves the right to deal with it however they want, as long as it brings them personal healing.
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At 50, am I too old for MySpace? It does seem like a great way to get music out there, giving my music away has always been my leading.
As for the songs you mentioned Michael, the only part I played is guitar (acoustic and electric) and the vocals. The rest was laid up with Jammer Pro (like band-in-a-box) and edited (man I hate editing MIDI files), then played through a variety of synths and drum machines, recorded to a Roland VS-840 that I modified with a compact flash drive.
There’s a lot more guitar work on the Resurrection Power CD – and a few of my friends helped out with some great guitar work (cuts 3, 5 and 10).
Download and burn the MP3s to a CD if you want. Have you ever checked out http://www.soundclick.com or http://www.garageband.com ? Those sites look promising ….
I attended more than a few Twin Rocks camps as a camper. I attended three Twin Rocks camps as a Jr. High Camp counselor. Argue what you will about the culture of the style of Christianity that was being pushed, I have to concur with ChurchGirl that I had a lot of fun moments and made some good memories/friends.
Ping pong/foosball tourneys! Gross lunchtime challenges! Mad-dash chicken runs across the freeway! Midnight runs to the top of the hill to act crazy and feel like you can touch the stars.
Yay…the pressure was there to speak in tongues and all that….but I definitely had times where I felt I connected with God on a deeper level, and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt there were times I connected with my friends on a deeper level!
Eating peanut butter off someone’s foot is still a completely gagging thought, though!!!
So was swallowing a live goldfish! And I hated those “cleanest cabin” competitions. But Capture the Flag was kind of cool and the walk on the beach at night totally rocked.
I’ve never really understood the interpretation of “perfection = Bible cannonized”. In fact, there’s something insidious about that interpretation. IF we believe the Bible represents perfection in print, and that the gifts of the spirit are no more, then doesn’t that set up the men who have been throughly educted in Bible studies, as the official interpreters of the Bible, and ultimately, the judges of human behavior?
Some here have said how hurtful it is when a tongue-speaker lords the gift over a non-tongue-speaker – claiming that the latter does NOT have the indwelling Holy Spirit because they don’t have the gift of tongues. That has happened to me before, and I know well how hurtful that is.
However, now that I have the gift, I can relate that it is EQUALLY hurtful to have some bible-thumping-pharisee type who espouses that “Bible=Perfection=NO TONGUES ANY MORE” interpretation try to tell me that what I have experienced for many years now (and it is a wonderful gift) is NOT from God, or that I’m demonic because I speak in tongues. Out here in the midwest, there is a catholic TV channel that is real popular – EWTN (?) – and I’ve seen priests on there saying that IF anyone ever comes to them claiming to speak in tongues, that the priest will try to cast the devil out of them. And I have had some occasions to counsel and comfort local folks who have been abused by priests/clergy over the real gift of tongues when they tried to cast the Holy Spirit out of a believer.
I’m not saying that’s your meaning, MEMLC, I’m just relating my experience and observation about tongues. It can be very hurtful on both sides of the fence. Wish that we could all just love and accept one another as God has made us.
Jack
John 444:
I couldn’t agree with you more. I began speaking in tongues at the extremely young age of 4, and without a shadow of a doubt I believe it was of God. I was the one asking and inquiring about it and my dad felt that IF I wanted to pray for the gift of tongues that it shouldn’t matter how young I was. So he prayed with me and the experience was very personal and even at that young age I feel it strengthened my walk with God making it more personal. Throughout most of my life I have prayed in tongues, mostly during those times that I couldn’t quite put my prayer into words. Just like many of you there were times where I felt “forced” to speak in tongues in a worship service. Although there may have been someone standing up front telling all of us to speak in “our prayer language”, I made a decision that despite what they’re telling us to do I will only speak in tongues when I feel urged by the Holy Spirit, not by a youth leader or camp speaker. To follow that type of directive could only cheapen the experience in my opinion. If it’s there it’s there, if it’s not it’s not!
Now, as I’ve gotten older and maybe a little more cynnical I very rarely speak in tongues, but whenever I do I still feel the same presence of God as I did when I was four years old.
I think it would be incredibly presumptuous, errogant and ignorant for any person to say that it isn’t of God or that it’s a “requirement” to be a spirit-filled Christian. I just wish we could all agree that our walk with God is something very personal and unique to each individual. Who are we to tell another child of God how to relate to him?
I’ve been able to speak in tongues for years but I don’t use it that much. I feel God’s presence with or without it; maybe more without it because I concentrate on Him only and not what I am saying. How can something you say but don’t understand be a wonderful gift. Please explain that to me. I have the gift but I don’t understand it and don’t fully appreciate it. I know that much.
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For me personally, it’s sort of a way that I can set my humanity aside and it’s as if my soul is communicating with the Lord. There’s a certain connection I feel when I speak in tongues that is really hard to explain. I know the way I stated that might seem a little odd and kind of creepy, I’m not too good at explaining a feeling with words.
I would say that the important thing is to feel God’s presence; if that means you don’t speak in tongues then so be it. I am not sure that speaking in tongues is for everyone. I would guess that if you are thinking about what you’re saying when speaking in tongues then it completely defies the purpose and becomes more of a distraction.
Something else to think about is that the way you were initially introduced to the idea could really effect whether or not you are comfortable with it. Some preachers get up there and go on and on making everyone pray without ceasing until every poor soul standing in the front “waiting to be filled” is shouting gibberish (genuine or made up) from the top of their lungs! That type of scenario could be very confusing and intimidating, and that could have a long term effect on whether or not you actually receive/accept the gift of tongues. To be quite frank (no pun intended!) if that had been my initial experience I wouldn’t have wanted anything to do with it!
For me BTB, it’s the peace. There were several years where I was awakened at 3:33 AM with the strong urge to pray. No idea what I prayed for most of the time, but I didn’t argue with how it was the Father wanted to use me or the gift He’d given – so I just prayed. As I prayed, the ‘burden’ to pray was relieved, and by the time I finished, there was just peace and contentment.
Occasionally I’d have a glimpse of an image, or thought that let me know who or what I was praying about – but I didn’t need to know the detail – I could simply trust that since it was the Spirit that was doing the praying (in groans words can not express), that the prayer was according to God’s will.
I’m also of the thought that praying in tongues is healing – can’t say why exactly – except that perhaps it aligns us with what God wants us to pray, perhaps it confesses things going on in our flesh/mind and opens the door to healing / teaching. There have been many times where after praying in tongues, I’ve found that there is a sudden knowledge of truth. There was no need to study or work something out by reading and cross-referencing scripture and commentaries at length – I simply KNEW something – a truth.
Perhaps praying in the spirit (Paul likens praying in the spirit in 1 Cor. 14 (?) to praying in tongues) opens a channel of sorts between me and God through which He can clean up some of the mess I am/was inside?
I know He uses the gift; Karen has it too, and there have been times and situations where both of us, at the same time, were compelled by the Spirit to pray in tongues. And there have been times where I witnessed how someone had been hurt and abused and I went into what many call “travail” – a deep, aching, sobbing prayer. I’m not a fan of ‘travailing’ – it’s heart-breaking.
One time coming home from a conference, I stopped at a gas station, and saw a young woman there, working the cash register. She forced a smile as I came in, but then her face went back to the saddest look I’d ever seen on someone. And the Spirit said “tell her about me”. Well there were dozens of people in and out of the convenience store, so I left without telling her about Jesus, though I took down her name and address to contact later. As I drove away, I went into travail – sobbing uncontrollably. The Spirit took over, praying in tongues, and having never experienced that before, I was really alarmed. Finally, I reached a hand over, placed it on Karen’s heart, and said “In the name of Jesus, receive the gift of interpretation” – and Karen began interpreting instantly.
In short, the girl had been terribly abused, felt no love from others, and the Father wanted to heal her and love her and give her joy. As soon as I got home – about 3 hours later – I went to the store, found a beautiful card that read as if it could have been a love letter from Jesus himself, and I write a personal note in it, with a few scriptures about God’s love for us, signed it “All my love, Jesus”, and sent it to her.
I’ve no idea what happened after that; what sticks with me is how God used the gift to pray for one of the ‘lost ones of Israel’ …
I think maybe the gift of tongues is to pray for others, and also to give a person peace. Tongues can pray for things that words can’t.
As for use in/during an assembly of believers, I’m not sure of its value. Perhaps some people with the gift of tongues feel ‘forced’ to make an ecstatic utterance during meetings, when in fact, the gift was for prayer-closet use only? Every interpretation I’ve ever heard was ‘churchy’ – couched in the institutional understanding of the interpreter – and so is suspect as far as I can tell. God is not institutional. He’s relational. God is not into heirarchy and organizations, nor would He tell a person “follow your pastor” … He would point the way to Himself and His Son.
I’ve been in the assemblies where the leader says “everybody pray in tongues now”. What good is that? And I’ve been in assembly, where during a time of worship/singing, the Lord moved me to fall to my knees and pray in tongues – and the person in front of me grabbed me by the hands and tried to stand me up to sing. Frankly, I’ve never been to an assembly where it was truly Spirit-led – someone always has an agenda, or tries to force their idea of what should be done onto others. Guess that’s why I prefer just breaking bread or drinking wine with someone, or a simple get together in a home – no agendas – no religious heirarchy to muck things up.
If you’re using your gift as led, you’re doing fine, I think BTB.
Thank you for your wonderful post, ChurchGirl. It is exactly how it all started for me, although speaking in tongues became genuine later. Maybe that is why I don’t get much out of it. It reminds me of being forced to do something. You showed alot of compassion and sensitivity and responded wonderfully. Thank you…
Wow, John444…what a beautiful story! Thank you!
A thought occurs to me … IF leaders regularly compel the congregation to pray in tongues (‘all together now…’), how long is it then before those with the gift feel an obligation to pray in tongues – to give an ecstatic utterance during the service?
By commanding the congregation to speak in tongues, the leaders teach the people to excercise their spiritual gift, in a religious churchy way.
No wonder when I get together with even the ‘home church’ crowd, it still feels like an institutional church because people are still acting out of their religious training, and don’t know how to follow the Spirit’s leading.
BTB,
Thanks for your kind words, that really means a lot to me. I enjoy the blog, but many times have felt a little “attacked” when I actually speak my mind and share experiences such as this (especially when it’s a positive message, sadly). I’m glad that you understood where I was coming from – it’s encouraging!
CG
What your husband experienced was unfortunate, but I’m still going to bitch about Twin Rocks.
First of all, to answer your question, of course there were fun times. But my point was that BT summer camp was never really summer camp. 3 hours of structured activity time in the afternoon sandwiched between exhausting chapels, etc, is not my idea of summertime fun.
Second, lighten up. I was referencing Friday the 13th. It doesn’t really creep me out, it’s just that on balance I have fewer fond memories of that place than nightmares.
Finally, my viewpoint might be slanted because I had the added pressure of having a “leadership” last name. Nothing like having the guest speakers know your name and make assumptions about you before you walk in the door. Have you ever had a camp speaker call out your name and tell you to come up because God told them that you have a word for the camp? I did. Nearly every summer I had some kind of lame thing like that happen to me. Those memories will always weigh more than watching someone do pushups with peanut butter in their armpits, then feed the PB&J sandwich to someone else.
Brother Locutus, please come up to the podium. God says you have a word for the blog!
[Comment ID #7944 Will Be Quoted Here]
Actually I have! My dad is a pastor, so all my life I’ve been somewhat singled out at camps and retreats and leaders always expected me to “set the example”. I don’t think I have EVER been to a camp or retreat where the guest speaker DIDN’T
Oops, I don’t know what the heck I did, but I hit a button and BAM my comment was finished… before I was.
To continue –
I don’t think I’ve ever been to a camp or retreat where the speaker didn’t know my name and wasn’t good friends with my parents. I started going to summer camp every year at the age of eleven, so I’ve been to several different camps outside of the CBC church.
I have been called up to share a prophetic word even though I’ve NEVER made any claims of having the gift of prophecy. And yes, it’s humiliating and embarassing. Especially when you have a bunch of your peers staring at you waiting to see what you’re going to come up with. I guess for me I just learned to expect that sort of assumption because of my heritage. It’s a good thing I’m not shy, though, because that would have been devestating and I sympathize with you for that. I would simply decline sharing during those times unless I felt that I had a “message” or something that the Lord had put on my heart to share. I would make sure it was evident, though, that it was not a “prophecy” but just something I felt the Lord telling ME, and it may or may not apply to the rest of the group. I know it’s awkward and can be humiliating!
One time in particular I was at a leadership retreat (for a CBC group I was involved in) and not only did I get singled out to share but our leader announced that God told him I had a word. I honestly had NOTHING to share, it was horrible! I was embarassed while everyone huddled around me praying for what seemed like hours as I sat there trying so hard to “hear God” because I had nothing! Heck, I was still trying to get over the fact that our leader had accidentally flashed everyone while he was sitting on the couch during the meeting. Talk about awkward! Shorts + sitting on couch + group sitting on floor = major embarassment for all except the couch sitters.
I guess my point is that I choose not to let those situations determine whether or not I enjoyed the camp or retreat. To me that falls into another category. You know, we’re all just humans and sometimes leaders err on the side of assuming that since we were raised in the church with “spiritual parents” that it MUST have rubbed off on us and we should carry on with the same calling. I can tell you first-hand, God doesn’t work like that, but unfortunately a lot of churches do. I cannot even count how many times I’ve been told by church leaders whom I totally respect and look up to that I was called to pastor, to prophecy, to lead my generation, etc… And maybe I am called to do those things in one way or another, but that doesn’t mean it’s going to be in the church-setting. Sometimes Christians are too quick to assume that if you’re called to be a pastor that means you’ll be leading a church and preaching on Sunday – where did we get that? If you study the word “pastor” it means all sorts of things! It’s not just a position, it’s more a way of life in some cases. For me personally, I’ve tried to stay away from leadership roles as much as possible because I’ve seen the good, the bad and the ugly and I choose not to participate. I don’t want the pressure and I don’t want to mislead anyone. I just want to serve God to the best of my ability with what HE wants me to do, not what my yough leader THINKS He wants me to do.
Maybe I’m just more forgiving because I understand both sides of the situation – church leaders have a difficult job and they aren’t perfect. It’s okay to say, “no, I really don’t feel like I have anything to share at this time” and leave it at that. The unfortunate thing is that many young people would instead feel like they have to quickly think something up to avoid the embarassment. I think that’s a shame and church leaders should really consider that before they make their assumptions.
Bottom line is, I am sorry that you were put under that pressure too, and I completely understand where you’re coming from. I just didn’t think that something like that should determine whether or not the camp was “creepy”. You can’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. I apologize, though, if my comment was insensitive to your situation.
I’m just glad I never had to lick peanut butter of Eric Knox’ toes… GROSS!!!
Your comment wasn’t insensitive, so no offense was taken. If you went to camp during the Eric Knox years then you definitely came after my time (I still remember Eric Knox more from OSU basketball than CBC). Perhaps camp had lightened up by then.
That could be! Either way, I feel for you, man. It’s not easy being a “child of church leadership” but I do think that overall being brought up with that additional sense of responsibility does bring about a different level of maturity. It’s interesting because now in the business world I naturally apply a lot of the same principles I learned from growing up in church to my work, and I’ve had bosses comment on how I’m “wise beyond my years” and that I’m very discerning. When I hear those comments I’m always thinking to myself, thank God that although I was irresponsible with my future and didn’t think ahead enough to finish college, etc. He’s still lead me to where I am today and with his grace I still have a promising future. Who knew I was in training for this my whole life? God is always faithful in spite of our failures. I can only praise God for that… well, and thank my parents because they’re great people too!
What bothers me is someone in leadership saying that God told them something when it was clear God never did. Makes me wonder what other words from God they are making up.
Why don’t we ever say to such a pastor, “Nope. You must have heard wrong – I got nothing”.
If that kind of honesty were going on, I might go back.
[Comment ID #7982 Will Be Quoted Here]
I didn’t really have to say it because it was implied once I let them have “the word” that God told them I had for them (usually something like, “thou shouldst prayeth and be good to thine neighbor and stuff. Yea, verily.”)
Good word.
Shoulda been “stuffeth” though.