Judah Smith and His Miracle MOJO
Posted on August 22nd, 2006 by Reformed Pope into the Uncategorized categoryWhile digging around the internet this morning I found this article about Judah Smith. The article is about 1 year old but that doesn't make it any less interesting:
Here's the best quote:
"Camp totally changed my life," said Imani Lawson, 20. "Before it, I was like, 'Why am I going to camp? I'm a pre-med and Spanish major and my grades suck.' But I asked God about it and God totally spoke to me about my grades. He said, 'Just keep going to church, I'll take care of that.' " And he has, Lawson said. "School became so easy, I'm like, 'Wow, God.' "
Yes, Imani, why bother to face the realities of life when you can just go to camp and "give it all to God". Hey, maybe if God doesn't come through and fix your grades maybe you could have Judah make a phone call to your professor?
Imani, you are 20 years old, why are you still going to summer camp? Of course I should note that Judah Smith also promised this:
"If you go to camp and your life is not changed I will pay, personally, your way,".
Of course your life is going to change…
A few weeks earlier he had urged them to attend his three-day Bible camp, even if they didn't have the necessary $200, even it meant quitting jobs they'd worked all four years of college to attain. Rise from your seats, he urged the young people, and walk down to the stage to say you will go to camp.
…you just lost your damn job… and flunked out of school… but you still got your $200 bucks back.
The article ends with this quote:
"Go for it," he said, "and may the mojo be with you."
I think mojo is what makes you have great sex.
August 22nd, 2006 at 8:05 pm
Mojo sex…sounds magical, literally.
August 23rd, 2006 at 5:26 am
When in doubt, check the Urban Dictionary.
August 23rd, 2006 at 6:30 am
That first pic - does anyone else think he looks like he just walked off the set of the ‘Queer Eye…’ - talking about ‘mojo’ - I’m just pointing out the obvious, people…
I was at a conference once where Jude F. decided it was cool to include the phrase “That’s the way, uh huh uh huh, I like it, uh huh uh huh” in his sermon and get all the kids to chant it back to him at various times. I felt like I was the only one who knew the true meaning of the old disco song and was genuinely embarrassed. I knew in that moment how Mugatu felt when he said, “I feel like I’m taking crazy pills!”
It’s one thing to be hip, it’s another to mistakenly(?) use sexual innuendo as a preaching tool. Sheesh!
Then again, if he can afford a $410,000 home on the Eastside, then maybe I should quit my job and become a youth pastor! I’m sure I could come up with my own vaguely sexual catchphrases that motivate kids to pay money to listen to me preach.
August 23rd, 2006 at 7:49 am
He does have a limp wrist.
August 23rd, 2006 at 12:59 pm
No self-respecting gay man I’ve ever known would be caught dead in that outfit…..he looks like a bottle of kitchen cleanser with an attached yellow Brillo pad on top. It doesn’t say “metrosexual,”, it says “Formula 409″.
Cattiness aside, now for the content…..I still am completely floored by this weird ultra-capitalist spin on Christian faith. If lots of people are flocking to it, it must be the word of God, right? Now, I’m not saying that we all need to wear hair shirts and flog ourselves, but this whole slick, Starbucks-esque, packaging-based, mass-market driven product emanating from Mr. Smith has no ring of truth that I can detect. Is it hip? Well, sort of. Is it pretty? Well, if you like that sort of thing. Is it doing something? Well, it seems to be at least causing a stir. But, is there value in it? Are people more peaceful and kinder to each other because of it? Are people isolating themselves less and reaching out more? Is it really and truly something that anyone can be a part of without devoting themselves to a yuppie image and hours of learning the songs on the overhead (and probably the dance movements to the bridge of “Blessed be the name of the Lord”…..remember that? “The name of the Lord is…..a strong tower….”)? Is any of this truly about issues of the heart that Judah or anyone else is willing to leave between the individual heart and the workings of the Divine?
It looks to me like this “ministry” is all about the tangible products that come out of it….it’s about what people can see, and it exists only to sustain itself through what people see coming out of it. And for me, that is defined as “of the flesh,” to use the group lingo of choice, and it’s also in a sort of symbiotic, closed relationship with itself. I don’t think God is worried about who goes to camp. I don’t even think God is worried about who is drinking vodka (although driving around with an open bottle of vodka is an interesting choice for legal rather than spiritual reasons, it seems to me….maybe it wasn’t open, but it still sounds a little sketch, particularly if this young lady was specifically planning a evening of drinking to follow Judah’s sermon….girl, if church drives you to drink, I think you need to find a new church). The point of faith shouldn’t be to give God an opportunity to work with you, because God does what God wants with or without your assistance….it should be to give yourself an opportunity to be in contact with God by choice, which might not affect you in ways that look slick in an advertising campaign. I think Americans have a need to make God glamorous….and I just don’t think God cares about such things. I’m not saying it’s not possible, I’m just saying that I don’t see much precedent or much real use for or much substance in this kind of thing. There is no there there.
August 23rd, 2006 at 2:06 pm
My parents were extremely poor attending B.T. and alot of it had to do with giving money they didn’t have. Then, when my dad couldn’t pay his tithes because he didn’t have a job we were outcasts. My dad left us and never came back.
I’m a strong Christian who values God over money. But I have three boys and Judah’s house costs more than I could make in 16 years. It isn’t fair.
I think Judah can shove his money up his you-know-what. I can deal with non-Christians who have lots of money because they don’t know better…but someone who calls himself a Christian who takes advantage of other Christians to make himself wealthy makes me sick.
I’m sure he’ll get his “reward” in Heaven but I don’t think it will be what he expects. It just might be a good kick in the pants.
August 23rd, 2006 at 7:54 pm
I remember when that article was first published. GC camp is pushed big time.. that article isn’t an exaggeration. If you were a faithful GC’er and you weren’t going to camp.. something was wrong with you! The Holy Ghost needed to get up in you! I was a bad Christian so I never went to camp. I had a job. I remember watching the videos of the memorable moments at camp and honestly.. it looked like that old Nickelodeon classic Salute Your Shorts but without the cynicism, charm and Ug. It was three legged races, tug of wars, girls running around in one piece bathing suits since two pieces were of the devil and then there was the “powerful” moments that consisted of a bunch of junior high to college age kids pogoing like they were at a Green Day concert and a few clips of Pastor Judah, Jude F if he was there or Benny Perez sendin’ down the hip, too cool for school fire and brimstone. I bet you a lot of the church folk would answer any criticism of the camp experience like,”Well.. at least they aren’t shooting smack.”
Someone mentioned inappropriate things being said during sermons…
I remember Jude F. talking about giving the devil the middle finger. I almost died!
August 24th, 2006 at 2:40 pm
Is anyone disturbed by this quote from that article?
“They are prepared to listen to leaders — whether from the pulpit or the White House — in ways that their parents, the boomers, did not, and that is a very new phenomenon. They believe in security rather than radicalism, political order rather than social emancipation, collective responsibility rather than personal expression.”
August 24th, 2006 at 3:08 pm
Jordan,
“They are joiners,” and I just don’t think you can relate to “joiners”.
You see, you probably think for yourself and occationally may even use your mind. Why don’t you try “following” instead of “leading” for a change and see what happens. Maybe then you will understand the “Millennial Generation” and see why blindly following is what Christ wants you to do.
August 24th, 2006 at 7:49 pm
I think this calls for a song:
Bind them together, Lord,
Bind them together
With cords that cannot be broken.
Bind them together, Lord,
Bind them together, Lord,
Bind them together with tithes.
(And then throw them in the river.)
August 28th, 2006 at 6:56 am
I think that it is sad that as Christians we write comments about other Christians in a way that tears down! The man is rich so what he is not putting a gun to anyone’s head making them pay, if you people actuall did your research you would see that he doesn’t make his money from the camps and the church (although he does get a salary) it comes from book sales and tape sales but that is right the rest of the world is being forced to buy them!! Rejoice in other peoples success, I don’t like the fact that sports stars make more then the president and most of them can’t read or write but hey they work hard and if they make a lot because of people like me going to the games watching then so be it!! I just think we need to be careful about how much we judge (check out John Bevere’s driven by eternity) !!!!!
August 28th, 2006 at 7:15 am
Thank you Lance, I’m glad you know us so well.
August 28th, 2006 at 8:48 am
How is it that Jonah is selling his books and tapes?
Did God sell copies of the scripture(s) to His people? Do you see anything annotated “Copyright God” or “Copyright Jesus - All rights reserved”?
The Bible STILL says “freely ye have received (from God), freely give (to others”. So, let me put that in perspective for you, Lance.
I have never met the author or song-writer who did not credit “God” with their books / songs. When complimented, they always seem to deflect any accolades to God as the inspiritation, even the GIVER of the words and music. “Give God the glory” they always say. Don’t they really mean “Give God the glory, but give ME the MONEY”?
As a songwriter myself, when faced with deciding whether or not to sell my CDs, it was a struggle at first because it seems like every body else is selling their stuff. But there came a moment of true clarity when I remembered that the songs I’ve written, were songs I asked God to GIVE ME for the express purpose of blessing the body of Christ. And God, as the source of inspiration that He is, did indeed GIVE ME songs just as I asked.
Since I told God the songs were to bless the body of Christ, how then can I turn around and sell them to the body of Christ? Doesn’t that make what I told God a lie? Isn’t that trying to deceive God?
Recently, I talked by my recent friend Sean Deitrich (a fellow musician who gives his CDs away) about it - and we concluded that if you have to pay for “truth” it must not be so good. You see, paying for something equals “buy in” - and if you pay for something, you have an expectation that it will satisfy you or make you “feel good” about the exchange of money for a product or service. That said, the author of said material as a seller gears his warez for a target market and makes it palatable / non-offensive to facilitate sales. Consequently, the influence of money waters-down and even corrupts the truth.
I know of many musicians who are giving away their music now, and some of the best books and articles I’ve read in recent years, are free through the internet.
People who sell what God gave them for free aren’t the kind of people you want to listen to, much less give money to.
August 28th, 2006 at 6:49 pm
“Blessed are the poor, for theirs is the kingdom of God….” “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of the needle, than it is for a rich man to enter heaven…”
August 29th, 2006 at 9:17 am
This is one of the most terrifying things I have ever read. Ever.
Sadly, I think it is symptomatic of much of our culture, not just CBC or conservative Christianity. There are a great many Americans willing to trade liberty, and even justice for comfort. Tying that attitude into evangelism is just saavy marketing.
September 2nd, 2006 at 5:14 am
Blah - Blah - Blah - so why do pastors even receieve a salary? I know plenty of people who purchase these products and many more for resources.
May I remind you, even Billy Graham sells his materials. Stop judging Judah and play in your own world.
September 2nd, 2006 at 8:06 am
This is our own world…
September 2nd, 2006 at 1:28 pm
Blah - Blah - Blah - to you too.
Your answer seems to be “it’s OK because Billy Graham does it” or “everybody else does it, why shouldn’t Jonah?”
Can you tell me why your example cites Billy Graham (and other men), but not Jesus? Why say “Billy does it” instead of “Jesus did NOT do it”? Could it be men are more concerned with conformity and the approval of other men, than with the teachings of Jesus? Seems like the example a godly man would cite is Jesus example, as in “it’s NOT OK because Jesus did NOT do it”.
You see, I can not reconcile that action, with what Jesus taught and did. In as much as this culture is concerned with “WWJD” (What Would Jesus DO), I just can’t understand how people can be so blind to Jesus GIVING away everything He had to give, while they sell what God gives. If they really intended to “WWJD”, wouldn’t the give away what they have like Jesus did?
Care to address Jesus example and teaching? I could give a rip about Billy Graham.
September 3rd, 2006 at 11:56 am
Okay, great point, but I dont agree with you yet. I understood Jesus gave everything away that he had, and yes I would like to receive the resources with no charge but where is the line drawn? How do you determine what original thought is vs. God’s thought? If its God’s thought do we not sell it - because it is not our own? It its original thought, is it okay to sell it? Even as a pastor? There just seems to be so much criticism on these boards towards Judah.
I understand that Judah does not make his salary off of resource sales, more like spending money. But if you put some practical, original thought into a resource and couple it with God’s word then I just dont see anything wrong with making a profit. Im quite sure most of his money comes from speaking engagements. Should he not be “taken care of” either when he is traveling, away from home speaking at a camp, retreat, ect.?
Oh and thanks for reminding me who the example is!
September 3rd, 2006 at 4:31 pm
Thanks for your thoughtful response, PGABound10.
The decision whether or not to sell what the Lord gives us is difficult. The easiest solution is to do what everyone else seems to do, and that is to find a publisher and make the media available through established for-profit distribution channels.
But what of Jesus example and command to give freely? What of Jesus word “if you love me, you will obey my commands”? What is the author’s objective - to teach and encourage the Body of Christ or make money, or both? It can be a terrible thing to examine one’s own heart in the light of God’s word.
For me, examining my heart, has led to some difficult questions that go far beyond money. For example, why does the Father give us His word? Presumably it is to teach, encourage and grow the Body of Christ, and pave the way for more of God’s spirit for believers, and for salvation for the lost. Now IF I claim to love God and IF my heart’s desire is to see the God’s will done on the earth (”thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven”), how do I play into that? Would I let money influence me, or would I let a desire for fame or notariety get in the way of seeing God’s will done?
Obviously, I can’t even approach Jesus example - but what about Paul? A man who implied he’d rather die than accept money from anyone for the gospel - who worked a ‘day job’ rather than take money from the people he ministered to ‘by night’. He did not want to hinder the gospel by taking money, and so like Jesus Paul offered it for free. Were Paul’s words an ‘absolute’, i.e., does money hinder the gospel? And if I truly want to see the gospel spread, would I allow anything to hinder it?
I have some experience in that area - several years ago, I wrote an article on tithing. I released it to one of the prophetic e-mail lists, and within a day, had maybe 100 emails, and several requests to re-distribute the article via other e-lists and web sites. The Holy Spirit prompted me to say “yes” to all re-print requests. Within a few months, the article was on 40 or more web sites, I’d heard from hundreds of people, and it even started showing up on BBSs, blogs, and translated into foreign languages. What the Father showed me about that, tied into the fishes and loaves princple. The Father had given me some spiritual food, which I blessed, broke, and gave back to the body, and the Father multiplied it like wild-fire. And I was blessed to receive hundreds of e-mail testimonials of how the Holy Spirit was confirming the word to readers, and how they were being set free from the tithe lie.
I do firmly believe, had I done what several people advised and folded the series of tithe articles into a book and sold it, that the word would not have had the power or influence it has as a FREE word.
In the years since, as the Father has provided for me by means that have nothing to do with my articles and music CDs, I have been blessed to meet thousands of brothers and sisters who have in turn encouraged me with their testimonies and friendship. Money has NEVER changed hands. I am however very very rich in the treasures moth and rust do not destroy, and I am certain that the ‘quality of my work’ will withstand the fires of testing on the day of the Lord - for I have invested in people for the Father, not in people for profit.
I know this could sound like boasting - it is not my intent at all. There is nothing I want more than to see the Father send a deluge of the Holy Spirit to this world - to wash away everything built on sand - and to turn everyone to the Father. I was once empty and praying to die. He filled me up, and I want what I have for everyone. I don’t want money, ego, fame, or any other desire of the flesh, or device of the devil to get in the way.
And so for me, it came down to choosing how it is I wanted to be paid for doing the work the Father set before me. I don’t want money or any of that stuff. I just want people to have what He has given me, and I want to hear Him say on the day of the Lord “well done”. I do not want to sell out people, or hearing Him say “well done”, for money or notariety in this life.
Hope that makes sense, and that you can discern my heart in the matter, where my words have failed.
Jack
September 4th, 2006 at 10:57 pm
Well. Judah Smith and The City Church… Hmm…They obviously got all of YOUR attention. Go ahead and be the David Letterman. They’ll be the ones actually making a change for the better.
September 5th, 2006 at 5:26 am
What a great compliment! We all thank you! I absolutely love David Letterman! You did it guys…you made the world take notice and fooled some into taking your blog seriously. Congratulations!
September 5th, 2006 at 6:39 am
Thank you for that. So Can I read the article on tithing?
September 5th, 2006 at 7:02 am
Yes, of course. That’s why I linked them.
September 5th, 2006 at 7:36 am
pgabound10,
The Father gave me some more clarity on the issue of pay, as I continued to meditate on it.
It seems to boil down to a simple question: “How do I want to be rewarded (paid) for doing the Father’s work?”
Scripture suggests that we can be paid in this life, or in the next (Matthew 6:1-16). But most apparently want it both ways - desiring money in this life, and their heavenly reward in the next. But - if a person serves the gospel for money in this life, and for heavenly reward in the next, aren’t they ultimately testing the scripture which says:
Matthew 6:24 EMTV “No one is able to serve two masters; for either he will hate the one, and he will love the other, or else he will be devoted to the one, and he will despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.”
If the servant is wholly devoted to God and to seeing God’s will accomplished in the earth, the servant is free to say exactly what the Father gives the servant to say. But IF the servant is concerned with making money from what God says, then he is effectively serving money by watering-down that which God has to say so that the people will buy it, or creating a mixture of God’s word and worldly wisdom (his own thoughts) to make it more palatable.
The scripture in Matthew 6:1-16 suggests we can have it one way or other, but not both.
Any thoughts?
Jack
September 12th, 2006 at 11:27 pm
Hi,
First: to correct a rather important quote from a couple posts back (by oinvu4uraqt). Mathew 5:3 actually reads “blessed are the poor in spirit…” I think it’s a bit misleading to leave off the “in spirit” bit.
Second, if anyone is truly interested in the Pastor Wedell Smith’s teachings on prosperity, I would reccommend borrowing or buying a copy of “Prosperity with a Purpose.” The “getting” portion of the book is really pretty slim. The meat of the writing is a study of prosperity related passages in the bible, and then a fairly good chunk of writing on what happens if you use your powers for evil(that’s humor people, laugh it off).
Now, my personal take on the prosperity of pastors in general (not specifically at the City Church). My grandfather was a minister, serving very small churchs for a large denomination in Washington. The family was basically dirt poor growing up. In one town, they showed up and the parsonage didn’t have an indoor toilet. My grandmother said she didn’t have a problem with it if the members of the congregation lived in the same conditions… apparently plumbing was installed shortly thereafter. I won’t try to make a call on what constitutes appropriate prosperity for a pastor (this car, that car, this house etc.) but off the top of my head I recall scriptures saying that the ox should not be muzzled as it treads the grain and that leaders are due a double portion.
Regarding Mathew 6:1-4. I think that is specifically refering to tithing and offerings. Meaning if you’ve paraded around the front of the sanctuary and placed your check on the overhead projector for everyone to see, then you’ll reap neither the temporal rewards promised in Malachi 3:10, Deuteronomy 28:2, Proverbs 19:17, Romans 8:32 (the list goes on) nor the heavenly rewards of Mathew 6:20. And of course Luke 6:38 (shaken up, pressed down and overflowing) applys to giving and receiving of either type.
So here’s my question; if, per the scripture, you are seeking first the kingdom of God, and all of these things (eat, drink, clothes) are being added unto you, then where in the Bible does it say there is a cut-off point?
Disclosure: I’ve recently moved to Seattle, and though not a member of the City Church, I do attend there regularly and intend to become a member in the near future.
May God bless each of you,
Derek
PS Jack, I’ve just read your article on tithing, and though I’m definitely not a theologian, I was disturbed by several of your scriptural interpretations (not that that’s necessarily a bad thing). I’ll drop a note on your personal website for further discussion.
Isn’t it great that a (somewhat and occassionally) thoughtfully considered discussion could come from a website originally intended to mock?
September 13th, 2006 at 5:04 am
Thanks for the comment, Derek.
God uses all things for good. Even sinners like me.
September 13th, 2006 at 7:24 am
Derek said:
You’re right - being disturbed isn’t always a bad thing … and to be honest, with that 1st article on the tithe (there’s now 6 of them), the interpretations disturbed my flesh, too.
That article ( To Tithe Or Not To Tithe: The $earch For Truth ) marked the beginning of my deprogramming from the religious institution of man; as you can see by the opening remarks in the article, my view of the tithe was that it is mandatory, and my view of God was that He would manipulate people who did not tithe, with guilt.
And so, it was with much fasting and prayer and praying in the Spirit that the tithe article series came about; of being led by the Holy Spirit, verse by verse, sometimes backing up and reading whole books or chapters to get the correct cultural and historical context, or delving into the Greek through the Strong’s KJV/Greek reference Bible.
For example, the scripture you cited “muzzle the ox, while treading out the grain” - that is one often cited in support of the tithe, but what is it about, really? Food. Eating.
Understood in historical and cultural context of Jesus time, and the early Acts 2-4 church, they got together, and ate. And so Jesus, and the apostles got to eat the food set before them. But no one was building them buildings, setting up a payroll for them, cars, insurance, or 401k’s. Their sole entitlement, for doing the work of the gospel, was a seat at the common meal, and if in a strange town, a place to sleep at a ‘worthy’ believer’s house while going about the work of the gospel.
Read 1 Corinthians 9 in entirety. Note verse 4, which precedes Paul’s use of the ‘muzzle the ox’ metaphor. Vs. 4 says: “Don’t we (apostles) have the right to eat and drink”? The setup for what follows therefore, is about food.
Often, 1 Corinthians 9:14 is twisted to support the tithe or other giving. Commonly, it is interpreted (from the Greek):
1 Corinthians 9:14 ISV In the same way, the Lord has ordered that those who proclaim the gospel should make their living from the gospel.
One of the things the Spirit showed me from that scripture, while studying the Greek, is a subtle twist that the translators put on that scripture, by turning the Greek for “to live” into a “living” … in other words, they turned a VERB into a NOUN. And where our culture has an understanding of “living” as a wage/paycheck, most people think that scripture justifies paying gospel workers with money.
But consider all that Paul had to deal with in the Church at Corinth. Fighting, drunken-ness, carnal-nature, idol-worshipping women converted to Jesus who were disruptive, false apostles trying to discredit Paul, false brothers who were promoting circumcision, etc.
And so, in that context, Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians 9:14, make more sense as “the Lord has ordered that those who proclaim the gospel should live the gospel, and therefrom eat”. Where the Gospel message is community, sharing, sacrifice, giving, the apostle is to model those behaviors, NOT JUST PREACH THEM, and by teaching through example, the apostle will be fed by others AS THEY FOLLOW HIS EXAMPLE.
The scripture is not a set up for charging money for the gospel, the scripture is an exhortation to actually do what the gospel says, and therefrom share in the blessing of sharing and community.
I hope you’ll read all 6 articles, Derek. Admittedly, they are uncomfortable to read, but only because they are in opposition to common religious teachings of men, with institutions to support and uphold.
Going through all of this, I often asked myself a simple question as a ’sanity check’:
“Can I picture Jesus as the pastor of City Church and continuing to operate City Church in the way it is being run by Wendell Smith and Co.?”
(Of course for me, it wasn’t City Church and Wendell Smith - nevertheless, the basic question proved a good sanity check for what was happening to me in the transition from being a slave to religion to being a Son of God).
Blessings! Jack
September 13th, 2006 at 3:55 pm
Jack,
I guess my next two questions are for clarification then.
1) If the references to food are strictly to be intrepreted to mean physcial sustenance, what is the significance of communion? (not being flippant, a serious question so I can understand where you’re coming from)
2) What’s your take on my thoughts regarding Mathew 6:1-4 and the other scriptures I mentioned above?
—Regarding Mathew 6:1-4. I think that is specifically refering to tithing
—and offerings. Meaning if you’ve paraded around the front of the
—sanctuary and placed your check on the overhead projector for
—everyone to see, then you’ll reap neither the temporal rewards
—promised in Malachi 3:10, Deuteronomy 28:2, Proverbs 19:17, Romans
—8:32 (the list goes on) nor the heavenly rewards of Mathew 6:20. And
—of course Luke 6:38 (shaken up, pressed down and overflowing) applys
—to giving and receiving of either type.
Regarding your final question, of course things would be different if Jesus were personally running any single “church” here on earth. He’s God, we’re not. I applaud the way City Church is run, near as I can tell they’ve made a darn good attempt at running a New Testament church as it was blue-printed in the scripture. I see large sums flowing in and large sums flowing out. I see a dedicated staff in place so that Pastors can pastor. I see a vibrant youth and young adult program that doesn’t hesitate to say “This is what we believe is right.” (and that, to me, is vital. Whatever else is claimed, scripture is not wishy-washy. Revelation 3:16 “Because you are lukewarm - neither hot nor cold -I am about to spit you out of my mouth”) and I personally volunteer with the Foodbank ministry where I see a daily gathering of truckloads of food, distributed throughout the Redmond/Kirkland area and also passed along to ministries 4-5 hours away that don’t have an urban center to draw on for donations.
Sorry, a couple other questions for you. What does “home-church” mean? Is that sort of like home-school where you have a co-op kind of setup with other believers and you all worship together? Do you rotate volunteers through the leadership/coordination positions?
God Bless,
Derek
September 13th, 2006 at 7:30 pm
Hi Derek,
Let me first answer your question with a question; should the Bible ever be “liberally” interpreted, as opposed to “strictly” interpreted in the cultural/historical context in which it was written? I mean, why do we assume for example that our culture is good (the ‘American way / dream’) and that the Bible is to be interpreted within the context of our culture? It seems like a ’strict interpretation’ of scripture holds our culture accountable to the Bible, whereas a ‘liberal interpretation’ of scripture holds the Bible accountable to our culture.
Rather than just assume our culture is good / right and then liberally re-interpret the Bible to suit our culture, why wouldn’t we judge our materialism, love of money, corporate enslavement, etc., as wicked according to scripture?
Culturally / historically, the Hebrews / Israelites, were an agricultural people - raising flocks, herds, fruits and grains. Others had simple trade skills - like carpenter, fisherman, etc. God’s basic command to them, and for us, is the same as given to Adam: ‘go forth and multiply’ … and so our needs as far as God is concerned for His purpose, are food and clothing for us, sun and rain for crops, keeping the locust (etc.) from devouring crops, and protecting us from enemies who would otherwise kill or enslave us, thereby subjugating God’s command to multiply (make God a family / people).
Personally, I think it is error to interpret the Bible (scripture) in context of our culture (materialism, et al). We do not have need of all the stuff we claim to have need of. Most of what we claim we need, is really a want. The system of buying and selling, etc., really are elements of Babylon, which according to scripture is wicked, and scheduled for destruction.
…
As for ‘communion’ - hard to address that since I don’t know what your mindset is concerning communion. Mine has undergone radical change in recent years, from the idea of communion as a 0.375+/-.010″ cube of Wonder bread and 1/4 Oz. of Welches grape juice, to an understanding of the “Love Feast” as spoken of by Jude 1:12. Once again, the ‘communion’ or ‘Lord’s Supper’, in historical and cultural context of the Hebrew / Israelite people, was a traditional Passover meal, consisting of roast lamb, wine, bread, bitter herbs, etc., of which the people ate their fill. It is a traditional meal, celebrated with singing, readings, remembrances of God past, and looking to salvation, symbolic of the “hidden bread” (aka the ‘afikomen’). Suggest you Google “passover seder” or “afikomen” to get a more traditional view of “communion”.
My personal view is, when Jesus said “as often as you do this, remember me”, He meant - every time the Body gets together to eat and fellowship (i.e., love feast), to lift Him up in our conversation - to remember what He did - to acknowledge that for those millenia while the Hebrews were celebrating the passover meal, with the symbolic “hidden bread” (afikomen), they were doing a prophetic enactment of the coming Messiah, who would be broken, wrapped in a cloth, and laid in a tomb, and later found by His people.
Communion does not have to be served by someone ordained, or in any official capacity. Communion happens every time believers get together and break bread and lift up Jesus.
Matthew 6:1-4 - is about alms for the poor - and has nothing to do with the tithe. Alms for the poor are best given directly to the poor. As I saw so many times in the churches I once attended, they are great at collecting money for the poor, and full of excuses when it comes to distributing to the poor. Get ahold of an annual report, and work out the percentage of the bottom line given to the poor. I’ll bet most churches give less than 5% to the poor. You’re better off giving directly to the poor, discretely, anonymously.
Culturally and historically speaking Malachi 3:10 is talking about RAIN where it says “I will open the flood gates of heaven”. Israel was an agricultural community. Drought was often seen as punishment / judgment, and rain as blessing. I live in the corn belt now and have seen a few drought years. Believe me when I tell you farmers view RAIN as a blessing.
The historical and cultural context of Deuteronomy 28 is food and protection from enemies - pursuant to that original command of God: go forth and multiply. Why not read the scripture in context to see what “all THESE BLESSINGS” are?
Proverbs 19:17 - why do we assume that the ‘return’ on what we ‘lend to the Lord’ is something that we want? Doesn’t the Lord choose how we are rewarded for our acts of kindness to the poor, widows and orphans? Why would the Lord reward us with the things that “moth and rust” destroy, when He Himself exhorted us to invest in spiritual wealth. If we give to the poor with expectation of material payback from God, do we understand that we are opting for our reward in this life at the expense of our reward in the next? To be honest, I don’t get the “lend to the poor” thing - why the word “lend”? It isn’t like the poor are going to pay us back. So perhaps it speaks to the poor belonging to God, to God accepting responsibility for the poor, so when we provide for them, we are acting on God’s behalf? It’s kinda like God says “I owe you one, pardner”.
Romans 8:32 likens us to Christ and says “shall He not also give us all things”? Since the scripture likens us to Christ and says God will give us ALSO that which He gave Christ, why don’t we ask what God gave Christ while on earth? Those were: family, friends, freedom, wisdom, the Holy Spirit, peace, love, etc. God didn’t give Jesus money, cars, homes, etc. Jesus went without that. So why are we asking God to give us, that which He didn’t even give His only begotten son?
Luke 6:38 - the context is “do not judge”, “do not condemn”, show mercy. That is what you will receive back “pressed down, shaken together, overflowing” if you give the same. Where’s money in that?
…
I admire your food bank work. My mom did that for years, and I loved helping her on occasion. When my gospel band did concerts in the greater Seattle area through out the late 70’s and early 80’s, we routinely asked the people coming to the concerts to bring a can of food as the price of admission, which we left for the host church to give to the local food bank. All free-will offerings went to the food bank. That was a real joy to see.
…
House / home church. Just a ‘catch phrase’. There’s about a dozen references to worshipping / gathering in believers homes in the NT, and not one scripture about meeting in an dedicated church building, building funds, etc. And so there is a movement of people who feel that because they left the institutional / denominational church and now meet with believers in homes, (or home churches), that they are scripturally correct.
I think it’s silly to put the emphasis on where you meet. It’s who you meet that is important. See Where Do You Go To Church if you’re interested.
Sorry this is so long … you asked
… IF a person’s view is that scripture is to be adapted / reinterpreted for our times and culture, then everything I said is crap. However, that would subject scripture to our culture, and I believe that is wrong. It should be the other way around.
Go Dawgs! TTYL, Derek!
Jack
September 24th, 2006 at 4:24 pm
john444,
Much of what you have said has troubled me. Not because I am offended, but I am worried that your views may be warped by a fear of money. So much of the church is afraid of money. While I do agree with a few points you made in your article about giving to the poor and the fact that the church is the people who worship and not the place of worship, I must say that I disagree with most of your interpretations of the scriptures.
First and foremost is the fact that you know little to nothing about Pastor Judah Smith, who is an incredible man of God. You do not know that the house he owns he did not pay for all of, but thanks to a generous donation from a wealthier follower of Christ he was able to purchase the house. Secondly, you do not know that his house is almost always open to kids from his ministry to come over and hang out and learn from his example of the way that he lives. You do not know Pastor Judah, yet you judge him as someone who is in it for the money.
You do not know that while in high school, he demanded after his second year at a private Christian high school that his parents let him transfer to a public high school, where he was an outcast and preached the gospel to the students of that high school, and by the time he graduated saw doezens of his peers come to know the truth of Jesus Christ. Was he driven by money then too?
I still fail to comprehend this doctrine that just because one is a preacher of the gospel, he must be poor. Numerous times throughout the text God speaks of His desire to BLESS His children, not a desire for them to be poor and constantly in need. God says many times that He desires His people to PROSPER. While prosperity is not exclusive to money (ie. fruit of the spirit, gifts of the spirit, etc.), finances is a large part of prosperity.
There are numerous biblical examples of God’s chosen people being very prosperous. If you look at what the bible says Abraham had, he was probably one of the richest men to ever live. God commanded Moses and the children of Israel to take whatever they desired from the Egyptians on their way out. Throughout my reading of the scriptures, I find that God desires that His people be BLESSED and PROSPEROUS, not poor and constantly in need. I find that we, as people though, are often afraid of this prosperity.
I find the clincher to be Mark 10:17-31. It begins with Jesus counseling the rich young ruler who had kept the law since the days of his youth, but was unwilling to give all that he had to follow Jesus. Something we often overlook is what it says in verse 21, right before Jesus told him to leave all that he had to follow Him. The scripture says, “Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him..” Jesus looked at him and LOVED him, hence the reason he told the rich young ruler to leave all and follow him. The rich young ruler TRUSTED in his possessions and so long as he had them, he would not be able to fully trust God and inherit the blessing Jesus promised later in Mark 10:29-30.
Later on in the chapter (the Bible indicates no time lapse, but that this was in the same situation), after Jesus had said that it was harder for those who TRUSTED in riches to enter the kingdom of God, Jesus said in Mark 10:29-30, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel’s, 30 who shall not receive a hundredfold now IN THIS TIME - houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, WITH PERSECUTIONS - and in the age to come, eternal life.” Jesus promised these blessings IN THIS TIME and in heaven, not just in heaven. I also want to note that He said WITH PERSECUTIONS. This one, in my mind, seals the deal. Pastor Judah may have a comfortable home and a comfortable life, but his teaching has many people, Christian and non-Christian, up in arms because of his call to a passionate following of Christ, one that the believer gives ALL that he has for the purposes of the kingdom of God, just as the Bible indicates the beliver should and as you rightly say the believer should.
I do not go to GC in Seattle, but I go to an affiliated church in San Diego and have had the opportunity to hear Pastor Judah Smith on many occasions here in San Diego and in Seattle. He is a very powerful, very anointed man of God and I have nothing but the utmost respect for him and his ministry, as I have seen first hand the fruit of it. When you see the way that he is able to really connect with this generation (of which only 4% is a practicing Christian), you realize that he is one of many powerful youth pastors God is raising up as a standard for this generation. I have had many opportunities to hang out with Pastor Judah and have discussions with him, and I can tell you that he is a man who lives up to his preaching. The lifestyle he lives is an incredible example to young people like myself (I am only 18) and he practices what he preaches to the utmost. Like the way that last December, when he was down here, he took me and 20 other interns at our church (who are all relying on God’s miraculous provision at this time in out lives to pay the bills) who were hanging out with him one night to the premiere of The Chronicles of Narnia and paid for us ALL. That is the man behind the preaching.
September 25th, 2006 at 6:38 am
I can’t help you see, Timothy. Suffice it to say, that the example most self-proclaimed men of God claim to follow is Jesus, who had no money, no home, no retirement, no corner office. No - like the loaves and fishes miracle demonstrated, Jesus (AS PRIEST) took the humble offering of a follower, thanked the Father for it, broke it, and then gave it right back (100%) to the people who gave it. And the Father blessed and multiplied it. Jesus, THE PRIESTLY EXAMPLE, didn’t keep anything for Himself, though He was entitled. So why do PRIESTS today not give thanks for an offering, break it, and send it back out to the people who gave it?
Paul who understood Jesus EXAMPLE, did the same. He refused to keep anything for himself, though he (Paul) was entitled. We know Paul had a day job for the money/material things he needed. And Paul exhorted those in ministry to “be like me”; i.e., get a day job, and refuse to accept money for the gospel, and thereby hinder the gospel by money.
I’d have been impressed IF Jonah had taken that gift he used to buy his house, and gave it to the poor and hungry - as that would have been following Jesus (and Paul’s) EXAMPLE.
As for preaching in high school - is that really what we’re called to do? Put up a soap box in the locker room and preach? I’ve always wondered at guys like that - for the Bible says in 1 Peter 3:15
“… and be always prepared to give an answer to every one that asks you to give an account of the hope that is in you, but with meekness and fear;” (1 Peter 3:15 Darby)
And so there is a Biblical order to testifying. First, simply let the joy / love of Christ shine through you that others may see it. Second, when others see that joy / love in you, and ASK you about it, THEN answer them, with MEEKNESS and FEAR (respect / reverence). So, in light of that scripture, how is the ’soapbox’ approach in the lockerroom in meekness and fear, how is it in response to being ASKED to give an acocunt? Seems to me it’s more to do with ramming religion down people’s throats.
The ‘ramming religion down people’s throats’ is the modus operandi of the Pharisees, Scribes and Teachers of the Law, who scour the world in search of a convert, and thereby make sons of hell of them through their religious teachings. (Matthew 23:15). As you may recall, Jesus scolded them most severely (Matthew 23).
Note - I’ve listened online to some of Jonah’s preaching. I often find it nauseating. The last one I listened to - a week ago - he was teaching from a 1400 page manual - your basic “how to be a Christian” manual. Good Lord: “turn to page 1400 of your ‘How To Be a Good Christian’ manual”. Barf!
And that’s where he lost me - and I wish he would lose ALL of his blind followers. How on earth can anyone be taught to be a Christian? I thought being a Christian was all about being filled with Jesus Christ via the Holy Spirit, where sripture says that the True Sons of God are the ones who follow the Spirit? It isn’t a person’s learned / modified behavior that makes them a Christian, it’s being In Christ and Christ being in them. Jonah has kids thinking that they are saved by their behavior - by their doctrine - by their tithes and offerings - by following THE MANUAL! And therein, Jonah is making SONS OF HELL of them.
The man who thinks he can teach someone to be a Christian is a fool, and does NOT know the gospel.
Lastly, concerning the passage you cited - Mark 10:29-30, what makes you think that the payback is in worldly riches, for example, the man who gives up 1 child, will he get 100 children back? Why don’t you relate that to the other scripture, where Jesus told you to lay up treasures in heaven which month and rust do not destroy? What are the treasures of Heaven? The presence of the Lord! Wisdom! Knowlege! Fullness of the Spirit! It doesn’t mean “give up one wife and get 100 in return IN THIS LIFE”. Jesus says “MY WORDS ARE SPIRIT” (John 6:63) - why not look at what Jesus said therefore with SPIRITUAL eyes/mind?
Anyhow - I wish Jonah good luck with his camel.
Jack
September 25th, 2006 at 8:37 am
Jack, it really pains me to think you actually believe there is some sort of 1400 page manual for living as a Christian. It was sarcasm.
He is in fact teaching how to be a disciple and lead others to be disciples. The manual he uses (though primarily referring to the Bible) is called “5b.”
It is a small (4×6) 70 page book designed to help new Christians during the first 5 weeks of their faith. The first step? Repent, be baptized in Jesus Name and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This comes from Acts 2:38. Which, by the way, was Paul giving the first sermon to the New Testament Church… to a crowd of at least 3,000. Meek does not mean fear of the world or fear of confrontation. Meek means trained to follow the commands of one’s master. Warhorses were considered meek, Jack, because they followed their master’s commands into battle, even though an untrained horse would have fled at the first sound of fighting.
I tried to read your “tithing” letters Jack, but just couldn’t do it, primarily because I found them so frustrating. As I read, it seemed like every one of the scripture quotations was misinterpreted in some way so as to support your “no-tithing” doctrine (an exageration I’m sure, but in my frustration, that’s how it felt). You have gone so far to the other extreme that you appear to believe that there is absolutely nothing in the Bible about Christians receiving God’s abundance here on earth. Jack, if the Bible is to be only interpreted literally, how then can we stop tithing? Didn’t Jesus say that nothing would be removed from the law? If that’s the case then you are required to tithe. Period. If your church is a house-church with only 5 members, then the 5 of you should be tithing (and that is in addition to offerings and alms). If you believe it should only be food, then so be it. Perhaps you can donate it to a local homeless shelter, but the Bible says, “Tithe.”
Jack, God wants to provide for us and he wants to do so abundantly. Anyone who believes that the Bible is only referring to earthly abundance is incorrect, but so also is anyone who believes in abundance all things EXCEPT earthly abundance. Will there be seasons of drought? Most likely (look at Job as an example, he lost everything but received back even more than he had lost. Yes that’s right; in addition to everything else, Job is also a book about prosperity).
I’m not going to continue reading or responding to this website, for a couple of reasons. First off, it seems to me that in doing so, I appear to condone taking Church business outside the Church. Second, I’ve come to realize that my own attempts to open your eyes will most likely come to naught and so this time spent typing on the internet would be better spent praying for you that God, Jehovah Jireh, would open your eyes and heart to receive the blessing that he has for you.
May God truly bless you Jack; I know that you have a heart for ministry and gifting. I hope and pray that you will open it to receive the abundance of God so that as he blesses you with funds, your ministry can be blessed and multiplied.
Timothy, I would advise you to speak with your Pastors before you continue posting on this site.
Blessings on you in the Name of Jesus,
Derek
September 25th, 2006 at 8:45 am
(sorry, one more thing… I’m human so it’s allowed)
In a previous post Jack, you said there was nothing about the early Church meeting in dedicated buildings… How can you say that in light of Acts 2:46-47 which states that in addition to “breaking bread from house to house” they met “daily with one accord in the temple?”
September 25th, 2006 at 9:07 am
The difference is simple, Derek. One can interpret the scriptures based on tradition, religion, institutionalism, culture, self-will, etc., OR, one can interpret them according to the teaching and leading of the Holy Spirit (see 1 John 2:27). Stick to the latter method. The Holy Spirit will always steer you right.
As for Jonah discipling people, please study Matthew 28:19. It says we are to make disciples (introduce people to Jesus through our living witness) through baptism, NOT that we are to disciple them. Once made disciples, the job of “discipling” belongs to the Holy Spirit (1 John 2:27).
Regarding frustration, have you ever read:
Creation was subjected to frustration but not by its own choice. The one who subjected it to frustration did so in the hope that it would also be set free from slavery to decay in order to share the glorious freedom that the children of God will have. (Romans 8:20-21 GW)
Frustration is the path to freedom, Derek. Don’t turn back just because your flesh is frustrated by the truth about the tithe lie being spread by the institutional church.
May you be blessed with truth, as well.
Jack
September 25th, 2006 at 9:21 am
You quote that passage without understanding the context, my friend.
Ouch. Sure you want to try to make it to Heaven by doing everything in the Law? The obvious implication is that we can’t do that, and Christ came to fulfill the Law by becoming sin for us.
One could easily replace “circumcision” with “tithing” here. Paul’s point was that Christianity is not about observing the Law to establish our faith or be “good Christians” (but then again Paul believes this term to be an oxymoron if you read Romans 7 and 1 Tim. 1:15) it’s about expressing your faith in love. In the context of giving, tithing is the Law, and we are no longer under the Law if we live by the Spirit.
I’ll echo Jack’s sentiments here: your frustration is a good sign that you are able to question this at all, rather than just writing it off. A willingness to question is a good way to find the truth for yourself. Jack’s comments (and hopefully mine too) on tithing aren’t motivated by selfish gain, but out of a love for the Body of Christ. We’d rather see the church motivated by love rather than by the Law when it comes to giving.
September 25th, 2006 at 9:26 am
Easy.
The temple was Jewish, wasn’t it? Do you know about the history of “the Way” then? That for a very brief time (Acts 2-6), Judaism and ‘the Way’ shared the temple, co-mingled, if you will?
But, there arose a great persecution - at the time that Stephen was stoned to death. And when that persecution broke out, the believers were driven from the temple, into hiding. See the story of Stephen in Acts 6-7. Then see Acts 8:1 concerning the persecution.
Now, consider what the early church was doing in Acts 2-4, in light of Matthew 28:18-20 (?) - the ‘Great Commission’ - Jesus told them to GO OUT INTO ALL THE WORLD. Were they obeying Jesus by huddling together in the temple? Could it be that Acts 2-4 is not an example of how ‘The Way’ - or the early Church - should meet - but rather - is a record of their disobedience to Jesus command “GO OUT INTO ALL THE WORLD”? What did the Father have to DO to get the early Church OFF their behinds and OUT INTO THE WORLD? He let the persecution come upon them, which according to Acts 8:1 had the desired effect of SCATTERING them throughout the world.
So, in context not only of the brief passage you quoted, consider the words of Stephen in Acts 7:48 concerning the Temple:
Howbeit the most High dwelleth NOT in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, (Acts 7:48 KJV)
Interesting to note what Paul says, 10 chapters later. You see, as the robes were laid at Paul’s feet, while the crowds stoned Stephen, I can only imagine the deep, and lasting effect that “angelic face” of Stephen, and his words “Father, forgive them”, had upon Paul. I have to believe it all haunted Paul. There Paul was, a jew, protecting the Temple and Judaism - the law - the system. Yet for all Paul’s knowledge and zeal, he did NOT know the joy and the Spirit of God that Stephen knew. Paul tried to snuff out that joy, and Spirit, in favor of the Temple and the Law and the Religious System. Not sure, but Paul may have still been alive, when that very Temple was destroyed by Titus in 70 AD.
Years later, after being confronted on the Road to Damascus, being struck blind by the Spirit of the Lord, for the blind man that Paul really was, after being humbled by the Spirit, and shown that the teachings of man were foolishness, and that only knowing Christ mattered, a broken and humbled Paul repeated the words uttered by Timothy, for which Timothy was murdered:
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth NOT in temples made with hands; (Acts 17:24 KJV)
Talk about repentence! Talk about a confession!
And please, don’t try to play word games with me. My words were very specific: what dedicated religious facility did the church ever build in the NT? My comments were specific to the building fund / drive madness that grips most churches.
At who’s feet have you laid your cloak to stone me, Derek?
Jack
September 25th, 2006 at 9:28 am
Derek, if that’s really your take on Jesus and the law, where do you get your animals for your annual burnt offerings at the temple and how do you keep PETA from picketing your house?
September 25th, 2006 at 9:39 am
Forgive an old man
… I meant Stephen, not Timothy. Got carried away by the Spirit, there, I guess. 
September 25th, 2006 at 9:47 am
++As for Jonah discipling people, please study Matthew 28:19. It says we are to make disciples (introduce people to Jesus through our living witness) through baptism, NOT that we are to disciple them. Once made disciples, the job of “discipling” belongs to the Holy Spirit (1 John 2:27).++
I dont necessarily agree - The Greek verb translated GO is actually not a command but a present participle (going). The only command in the entire Great Commission is “make disciples”. Jesus said, “While your GOING, make disciples of all nations.” No matter where we are, we should be witnesses for Jesus and seek to win others to Him (Acts 11:19-21).
The term “disciples” was the most popular name for the early believers. The word ‘apprentice’ is actually a more accurate term or equivalent term. A disciple attached himself to a teacher, identified with him, learned from him, not simply by listening but also by doing. Jesus called twelve disciples and taught them so that they might be able to teach others (Mark 3:13).
A disciple, then, is one who has believed on Jesus Christ and expressed this faith by being baptized. He remains in the church so that he might be taught the truths of the faith (Acts 2:41-47). He is then able to go out and teach others. This was the pattern of the NT church (2 Tim 2:1-2)
Jesus had opened the minds of His disciples to understand the Scriptures (Luke 24:44-45). They knew what He wanted them to teach their own converts. It is not enough to win people to Jesus, we also have to teach them the Word of God. This is also a part of the Great Commission.
Jesse
September 25th, 2006 at 11:03 am
Good points, Jesse.
I view it as a which came first thing, the chicken or the egg. Do men first teach, with later confirmation by the Holy Spirit (all that is taught should be confirmed by the Spirit - or ‘witnessed’ by the spirit, hence ‘test all things’). Or, does the Holy Spirit do the teaching, with men witnessing what the Holy Spirit teaches? Or is it both ways?
There is evidence in scripture that suggests men can not teach - among them even Jesus example. Peter followed Jesus for 2 full years before confessing “you are the Christ / Messiah, the son of the living God”. Jesus doesn’t say “man, it took you long enough, I didn’t think I’d ever get through that thick skull of yours, Pete”. No, Jesus said “the FATHER revealed that to you”, and that suggests that learning things of a spiritual nature must come from the Spirit (see 1 Corinthians 2:14).
And so the teaching / revelation of the Spirit comes first, whereby what men are really doing is simply witnessing to the work of the Spirit. They are not imparting anything on their own, or anything original, they are just testifying to the knowledge and wisdom that the Spirit has already imparted or is presently imparting.
Absent the Spirit, there is no teaching (learning).
Biblically, I do wonder about the so-called 5-fold roles. Scripture shows the Apostles teaching. And there are also Prophets/esses, Evangelists, Shepherds and Teachers. Are prophets supposed to teach? Or Shepherds teach? If you look at 1 Corinthians 14, who’s bringing the “word of God” to the Church? I’ll give you a hint, it’s NOT the Shepherds / Pastors. OK - I’ll tell you - it’s the PROPHETS - by the Spirit of Prophecy / Holy Spirit.
There is no Biblical model for the ‘1 man pastor show’ where every thing in a religious service points to the pulpit center stage and the pastor who brings the message. 1 Cor. 14:26 talks about EVERYONE bringing to the table (love feast) that portion which the Holy Spirit has given them.
And so, it is the Holy Spirit who teaches, through those He moves through in the assembly, and by confirmation of the Holy Spirit in the listeners.
What I’m trying to say, in part Jesse, is that the modern incarnation of the church as become a very stagnant / static thing - with one man - presumably God’s elect representative for that congregation, doing the teaching, being the center of attention. But I believe the Father designed a more living, dynamic, organic Church, whereby the teaching is brought by anyone filled and inspired by the Holy Spirit, in the assembly of the saints (wherever there are 2 or 3 gathered).
I do NOT think that scipture establishes / validates the type of teacher that we have seen in Frank, Jonah, et al. For the simple reason that they have utterly silenced the congregation, and thereby the work of the Holy Spirit in / through the other body members, and are therefore grieving the Holy Spirit, and making sons of hell of their followers.
When was the last time someone (a prophet/ess) stood up in the assembly (CBC, GenChurch, et al), and said “Brother, the discernment of the Holy Spirit in me will NOT let what you just said stand, for the written word of God says: …” how often have you seen the ‘testing’ that is prescribed in 1 Cor. 14, or 1 Thes. 5 (?), happen in the assembly? When was the last time you saw a good debate between the man who professes to be the pastor/teacher, and someone (with discernment) in the Body? Or is what the “man of God” says / teaches accepted without question?
Guess I don’t think we teach, nearly as much as we witness to what the Holy Spirit is teaching. And for me, that ‘witnessing’ to the things of the Spirit almost ALWAYS comes with a great sense of excitement! As in “Yes! \o/ The Spirit showed me that, too!”
;)
Jack
September 25th, 2006 at 12:24 pm
This is what I love about CBC blogging: 8:37am Derek says:
8:45am Derek says:
You just can't quit can you? Always needing the last word. Well, Timothy, I'm not sure what you should do…but I don't think I'd spend much time listening to Derek.
September 25th, 2006 at 12:33 pm
I wouldn’t listen to Derel either, Timothy.
“Hi, I’m Derel and this is my other brother, Derel, er, Derek … aw hell, doesn’t matter … either way, we’re both idiots …”
September 25th, 2006 at 3:09 pm
Thanks RED.
September 25th, 2006 at 7:26 pm
You bet, JP. That’s what fiends are for.
Red
December 11th, 2006 at 6:28 pm
honestly i hope to God that one day my youth church is shaking things up like Judah’s is. In fact i think the coolest thing in the world would be to have a christian site bashing the fact that God has favored my youth group, and my youth pastor. Also im saddened by the fact that you christians live such a life of poverty and war. You are shooting at a man of God, who is being used to save thousands of teenagers from Hell, and to be quite honest i hope you are prepared for the consequences of so foolishly mocking a man of God. You wonder how come none of you have any money like Judah? Try to bless authority instead of cursing it and see what happens…
December 11th, 2006 at 6:50 pm
I just love assumptions.
December 11th, 2006 at 7:50 pm
interesting concept… I didnt think real men talked of their sex lives in public, and especially in front of children with impressionable minds.
December 11th, 2006 at 7:54 pm
They DON’T. Doing so dishonors themselves and their wife.
One more thing, Judah has his position because of one thing, and one thing only:
Nepotism.
December 11th, 2006 at 8:18 pm
Have you people checked out his MY SPACE page lately?
He says: “Please note: I have help maintaining this MySpace profile from my friend Sean, who is also one of my disciples and a church staff member. If you have question for me directly, it might be better to go through the church offices….”
His disciple? Jim Jones had disciples too. So did Jesus. So, is he a man-made god or is he a cult leader? Enlighten me people…
And check it out:
December 11th, 2006 at 8:18 pm
http://www.myspace.com/judahsmith