Judah Smith and His Miracle MOJO
Posted on August 22nd, 2006 by Reformed Pope into the Uncategorized categoryWhile digging around the internet this morning I found this article about Judah Smith. The article is about 1 year old but that doesn't make it any less interesting:
Here's the best quote:
"Camp totally changed my life," said Imani Lawson, 20. "Before it, I was like, 'Why am I going to camp? I'm a pre-med and Spanish major and my grades suck.' But I asked God about it and God totally spoke to me about my grades. He said, 'Just keep going to church, I'll take care of that.' " And he has, Lawson said. "School became so easy, I'm like, 'Wow, God.' "
Yes, Imani, why bother to face the realities of life when you can just go to camp and "give it all to God". Hey, maybe if God doesn't come through and fix your grades maybe you could have Judah make a phone call to your professor?
Imani, you are 20 years old, why are you still going to summer camp? Of course I should note that Judah Smith also promised this:
"If you go to camp and your life is not changed I will pay, personally, your way,".
Of course your life is going to change…
A few weeks earlier he had urged them to attend his three-day Bible camp, even if they didn't have the necessary $200, even it meant quitting jobs they'd worked all four years of college to attain. Rise from your seats, he urged the young people, and walk down to the stage to say you will go to camp.
…you just lost your damn job… and flunked out of school… but you still got your $200 bucks back.
The article ends with this quote:
"Go for it," he said, "and may the mojo be with you."
I think mojo is what makes you have great sex.
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August 22nd, 2006 at 8:05 pm
Mojo sex…sounds magical, literally.
August 23rd, 2006 at 5:26 am
When in doubt, check the Urban Dictionary.
August 23rd, 2006 at 6:30 am
That first pic - does anyone else think he looks like he just walked off the set of the ‘Queer Eye…’ - talking about ‘mojo’ - I’m just pointing out the obvious, people…
I was at a conference once where Jude F. decided it was cool to include the phrase “That’s the way, uh huh uh huh, I like it, uh huh uh huh” in his sermon and get all the kids to chant it back to him at various times. I felt like I was the only one who knew the true meaning of the old disco song and was genuinely embarrassed. I knew in that moment how Mugatu felt when he said, “I feel like I’m taking crazy pills!”
It’s one thing to be hip, it’s another to mistakenly(?) use sexual innuendo as a preaching tool. Sheesh!
Then again, if he can afford a $410,000 home on the Eastside, then maybe I should quit my job and become a youth pastor! I’m sure I could come up with my own vaguely sexual catchphrases that motivate kids to pay money to listen to me preach.
August 23rd, 2006 at 7:49 am
He does have a limp wrist.
August 23rd, 2006 at 12:59 pm
No self-respecting gay man I’ve ever known would be caught dead in that outfit…..he looks like a bottle of kitchen cleanser with an attached yellow Brillo pad on top. It doesn’t say “metrosexual,”, it says “Formula 409″.
Cattiness aside, now for the content…..I still am completely floored by this weird ultra-capitalist spin on Christian faith. If lots of people are flocking to it, it must be the word of God, right? Now, I’m not saying that we all need to wear hair shirts and flog ourselves, but this whole slick, Starbucks-esque, packaging-based, mass-market driven product emanating from Mr. Smith has no ring of truth that I can detect. Is it hip? Well, sort of. Is it pretty? Well, if you like that sort of thing. Is it doing something? Well, it seems to be at least causing a stir. But, is there value in it? Are people more peaceful and kinder to each other because of it? Are people isolating themselves less and reaching out more? Is it really and truly something that anyone can be a part of without devoting themselves to a yuppie image and hours of learning the songs on the overhead (and probably the dance movements to the bridge of “Blessed be the name of the Lord”…..remember that? “The name of the Lord is…..a strong tower….”)? Is any of this truly about issues of the heart that Judah or anyone else is willing to leave between the individual heart and the workings of the Divine?
It looks to me like this “ministry” is all about the tangible products that come out of it….it’s about what people can see, and it exists only to sustain itself through what people see coming out of it. And for me, that is defined as “of the flesh,” to use the group lingo of choice, and it’s also in a sort of symbiotic, closed relationship with itself. I don’t think God is worried about who goes to camp. I don’t even think God is worried about who is drinking vodka (although driving around with an open bottle of vodka is an interesting choice for legal rather than spiritual reasons, it seems to me….maybe it wasn’t open, but it still sounds a little sketch, particularly if this young lady was specifically planning a evening of drinking to follow Judah’s sermon….girl, if church drives you to drink, I think you need to find a new church). The point of faith shouldn’t be to give God an opportunity to work with you, because God does what God wants with or without your assistance….it should be to give yourself an opportunity to be in contact with God by choice, which might not affect you in ways that look slick in an advertising campaign. I think Americans have a need to make God glamorous….and I just don’t think God cares about such things. I’m not saying it’s not possible, I’m just saying that I don’t see much precedent or much real use for or much substance in this kind of thing. There is no there there.
August 23rd, 2006 at 2:06 pm
My parents were extremely poor attending B.T. and alot of it had to do with giving money they didn’t have. Then, when my dad couldn’t pay his tithes because he didn’t have a job we were outcasts. My dad left us and never came back.
I’m a strong Christian who values God over money. But I have three boys and Judah’s house costs more than I could make in 16 years. It isn’t fair.
I think Judah can shove his money up his you-know-what. I can deal with non-Christians who have lots of money because they don’t know better…but someone who calls himself a Christian who takes advantage of other Christians to make himself wealthy makes me sick.
I’m sure he’ll get his “reward” in Heaven but I don’t think it will be what he expects. It just might be a good kick in the pants.
August 23rd, 2006 at 7:54 pm
I remember when that article was first published. GC camp is pushed big time.. that article isn’t an exaggeration. If you were a faithful GC’er and you weren’t going to camp.. something was wrong with you! The Holy Ghost needed to get up in you! I was a bad Christian so I never went to camp. I had a job. I remember watching the videos of the memorable moments at camp and honestly.. it looked like that old Nickelodeon classic Salute Your Shorts but without the cynicism, charm and Ug. It was three legged races, tug of wars, girls running around in one piece bathing suits since two pieces were of the devil and then there was the “powerful” moments that consisted of a bunch of junior high to college age kids pogoing like they were at a Green Day concert and a few clips of Pastor Judah, Jude F if he was there or Benny Perez sendin’ down the hip, too cool for school fire and brimstone. I bet you a lot of the church folk would answer any criticism of the camp experience like,”Well.. at least they aren’t shooting smack.”
Someone mentioned inappropriate things being said during sermons…
I remember Jude F. talking about giving the devil the middle finger. I almost died!
August 24th, 2006 at 2:40 pm
Is anyone disturbed by this quote from that article?
“They are prepared to listen to leaders — whether from the pulpit or the White House — in ways that their parents, the boomers, did not, and that is a very new phenomenon. They believe in security rather than radicalism, political order rather than social emancipation, collective responsibility rather than personal expression.”
August 24th, 2006 at 3:08 pm
Jordan,
“They are joiners,” and I just don’t think you can relate to “joiners”.
You see, you probably think for yourself and occationally may even use your mind. Why don’t you try “following” instead of “leading” for a change and see what happens. Maybe then you will understand the “Millennial Generation” and see why blindly following is what Christ wants you to do.
August 24th, 2006 at 7:49 pm
I think this calls for a song:
Bind them together, Lord,
Bind them together
With cords that cannot be broken.
Bind them together, Lord,
Bind them together, Lord,
Bind them together with tithes.
(And then throw them in the river.)
August 28th, 2006 at 6:56 am
I think that it is sad that as Christians we write comments about other Christians in a way that tears down! The man is rich so what he is not putting a gun to anyone’s head making them pay, if you people actuall did your research you would see that he doesn’t make his money from the camps and the church (although he does get a salary) it comes from book sales and tape sales but that is right the rest of the world is being forced to buy them!! Rejoice in other peoples success, I don’t like the fact that sports stars make more then the president and most of them can’t read or write but hey they work hard and if they make a lot because of people like me going to the games watching then so be it!! I just think we need to be careful about how much we judge (check out John Bevere’s driven by eternity) !!!!!
August 28th, 2006 at 7:15 am
Thank you Lance, I’m glad you know us so well.
August 28th, 2006 at 8:48 am
How is it that Jonah is selling his books and tapes?
Did God sell copies of the scripture(s) to His people? Do you see anything annotated “Copyright God” or “Copyright Jesus - All rights reserved”?
The Bible STILL says “freely ye have received (from God), freely give (to others”. So, let me put that in perspective for you, Lance.
I have never met the author or song-writer who did not credit “God” with their books / songs. When complimented, they always seem to deflect any accolades to God as the inspiritation, even the GIVER of the words and music. “Give God the glory” they always say. Don’t they really mean “Give God the glory, but give ME the MONEY”?
As a songwriter myself, when faced with deciding whether or not to sell my CDs, it was a struggle at first because it seems like every body else is selling their stuff. But there came a moment of true clarity when I remembered that the songs I’ve written, were songs I asked God to GIVE ME for the express purpose of blessing the body of Christ. And God, as the source of inspiration that He is, did indeed GIVE ME songs just as I asked.
Since I told God the songs were to bless the body of Christ, how then can I turn around and sell them to the body of Christ? Doesn’t that make what I told God a lie? Isn’t that trying to deceive God?
Recently, I talked by my recent friend Sean Deitrich (a fellow musician who gives his CDs away) about it - and we concluded that if you have to pay for “truth” it must not be so good. You see, paying for something equals “buy in” - and if you pay for something, you have an expectation that it will satisfy you or make you “feel good” about the exchange of money for a product or service. That said, the author of said material as a seller gears his warez for a target market and makes it palatable / non-offensive to facilitate sales. Consequently, the influence of money waters-down and even corrupts the truth.
I know of many musicians who are giving away their music now, and some of the best books and articles I’ve read in recent years, are free through the internet.
People who sell what God gave them for free aren’t the kind of people you want to listen to, much less give money to.
August 28th, 2006 at 6:49 pm
“Blessed are the poor, for theirs is the kingdom of God….” “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of the needle, than it is for a rich man to enter heaven…”
August 29th, 2006 at 9:17 am
This is one of the most terrifying things I have ever read. Ever.
Sadly, I think it is symptomatic of much of our culture, not just CBC or conservative Christianity. There are a great many Americans willing to trade liberty, and even justice for comfort. Tying that attitude into evangelism is just saavy marketing.
September 2nd, 2006 at 5:14 am
Blah - Blah - Blah - so why do pastors even receieve a salary? I know plenty of people who purchase these products and many more for resources.
May I remind you, even Billy Graham sells his materials. Stop judging Judah and play in your own world.
September 2nd, 2006 at 8:06 am
This is our own world…
September 2nd, 2006 at 1:28 pm
Blah - Blah - Blah - to you too.
Your answer seems to be “it’s OK because Billy Graham does it” or “everybody else does it, why shouldn’t Jonah?”
Can you tell me why your example cites Billy Graham (and other men), but not Jesus? Why say “Billy does it” instead of “Jesus did NOT do it”? Could it be men are more concerned with conformity and the approval of other men, than with the teachings of Jesus? Seems like the example a godly man would cite is Jesus example, as in “it’s NOT OK because Jesus did NOT do it”.
You see, I can not reconcile that action, with what Jesus taught and did. In as much as this culture is concerned with “WWJD” (What Would Jesus DO), I just can’t understand how people can be so blind to Jesus GIVING away everything He had to give, while they sell what God gives. If they really intended to “WWJD”, wouldn’t the give away what they have like Jesus did?
Care to address Jesus example and teaching? I could give a rip about Billy Graham.
September 3rd, 2006 at 11:56 am
Okay, great point, but I dont agree with you yet. I understood Jesus gave everything away that he had, and yes I would like to receive the resources with no charge but where is the line drawn? How do you determine what original thought is vs. God’s thought? If its God’s thought do we not sell it - because it is not our own? It its original thought, is it okay to sell it? Even as a pastor? There just seems to be so much criticism on these boards towards Judah.
I understand that Judah does not make his salary off of resource sales, more like spending money. But if you put some practical, original thought into a resource and couple it with God’s word then I just dont see anything wrong with making a profit. Im quite sure most of his money comes from speaking engagements. Should he not be “taken care of” either when he is traveling, away from home speaking at a camp, retreat, ect.?
Oh and thanks for reminding me who the example is!
September 3rd, 2006 at 4:31 pm
Thanks for your thoughtful response, PGABound10.
The decision whether or not to sell what the Lord gives us is difficult. The easiest solution is to do what everyone else seems to do, and that is to find a publisher and make the media available through established for-profit distribution channels.
But what of Jesus example and command to give freely? What of Jesus word “if you love me, you will obey my commands”? What is the author’s objective - to teach and encourage the Body of Christ or make money, or both? It can be a terrible thing to examine one’s own heart in the light of God’s word.
For me, examining my heart, has led to some difficult questions that go far beyond money. For example, why does the Father give us His word? Presumably it is to teach, encourage and grow the Body of Christ, and pave the way for more of God’s spirit for believers, and for salvation for the lost. Now IF I claim to love God and IF my heart’s desire is to see the God’s will done on the earth (”thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven”), how do I play into that? Would I let money influence me, or would I let a desire for fame or notariety get in the way of seeing God’s will done?
Obviously, I can’t even approach Jesus example - but what about Paul? A man who implied he’d rather die than accept money from anyone for the gospel - who worked a ‘day job’ rather than take money from the people he ministered to ‘by night’. He did not want to hinder the gospel by taking money, and so like Jesus Paul offered it for free. Were Paul’s words an ‘absolute’, i.e., does money hinder the gospel? And if I truly want to see the gospel spread, would I allow anything to hinder it?
I have some experience in that area - several years ago, I wrote an article on tithing. I released it to one of the prophetic e-mail lists, and within a day, had maybe 100 emails, and several requests to re-distribute the article via other e-lists and web sites. The Holy Spirit prompted me to say “yes” to all re-print requests. Within a few months, the article was on 40 or more web sites, I’d heard from hundreds of people, and it even started showing up on BBSs, blogs, and translated into foreign languages. What the Father showed me about that, tied into the fishes and loaves princple. The Father had given me some spiritual food, which I blessed, broke, and gave back to the body, and the Father multiplied it like wild-fire. And I was blessed to receive hundreds of e-mail testimonials of how the Holy Spirit was confirming the word to readers, and how they were being set free from the tithe lie.
I do firmly believe, had I done what several people advised and folded the series of tithe articles into a book and sold it, that the word would not have had the power or influence it has as a FREE word.
In the years since, as the Father has provided for me by means that have nothing to do with my articles and music CDs, I have been blessed to meet thousands of brothers and sisters who have in turn encouraged me with their testimonies and friendship. Money has NEVER changed hands. I am however very very rich in the treasures moth and rust do not destroy, and I am certain that the ‘quality of my work’ will withstand the fires of testing on the day of the Lord - for I have invested in people for the Father, not in people for profit.
I know this could sound like boasting - it is not my intent at all. There is nothing I want more than to see the Father send a deluge of the Holy Spirit to this world - to wash away everything built on sand - and to turn everyone to the Father. I was once empty and praying to die. He filled me up, and I want what I have for everyone. I don’t want money, ego, fame, or any other desire of the flesh, or device of the devil to get in the way.
And so for me, it came down to choosing how it is I wanted to be paid for doing the work the Father set before me. I don’t want money or any of that stuff. I just want people to have what He has given me, and I want to hear Him say on the day of the Lord “well done”. I do not want to sell out people, or hearing Him say “well done”, for money or notariety in this life.
Hope that makes sense, and that you can discern my heart in the matter, where my words have failed.
Jack
September 4th, 2006 at 10:57 pm
Well. Judah Smith and The City Church… Hmm…They obviously got all of YOUR attention. Go ahead and be the David Letterman. They’ll be the ones actually making a change for the better.
September 5th, 2006 at 5:26 am
What a great compliment! We all thank you! I absolutely love David Letterman! You did it guys…you made the world take notice and fooled some into taking your blog seriously. Congratulations!
September 5th, 2006 at 6:39 am
Thank you for that. So Can I read the article on tithing?
September 5th, 2006 at 7:02 am
Yes, of course. That’s why I linked them.
September 5th, 2006 at 7:36 am
pgabound10,
The Father gave me some more clarity on the issue of pay, as I continued to meditate on it.
It seems to boil down to a simple question: “How do I want to be rewarded (paid) for doing the Father’s work?”
Scripture suggests that we can be paid in this life, or in the next (Matthew 6:1-16). But most apparently want it both ways - desiring money in this life, and their heavenly reward in the next. But - if a person serves the gospel for money in this life, and for heavenly reward in the next, aren’t they ultimately testing the scripture which says:
Matthew 6:24 EMTV “No one is able to serve two masters; for either he will hate the one, and he will love the other, or else he will be devoted to the one, and he will despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.”
If the servant is wholly devoted to God and to seeing God’s will accomplished in the earth, the servant is free to say exactly what the Father gives the servant to say. But IF the servant is concerned with making money from what God says, then he is effectively serving money by watering-down that which God has to say so that the people will buy it, or creating a mixture of God’s word and worldly wisdom (his own thoughts) to make it more palatable.
The scripture in Matthew 6:1-16 suggests we can have it one way or other, but not both.
Any thoughts?
Jack
September 12th, 2006 at 11:27 pm
Hi,
First: to correct a rather important quote from a couple posts back (by oinvu4uraqt). Mathew 5:3 actually reads “blessed are the poor in spirit…” I think it’s a bit misleading to leave off the “in spirit” bit.
Second, if anyone is truly interested in the Pastor Wedell Smith’s teachings on prosperity, I would reccommend borrowing or buying a copy of “Prosperity with a Purpose.” The “getting” portion of the book is really pretty slim. The meat of the writing is a study of prosperity related passages in the bible, and then a fairly good chunk of writing on what happens if you use your powers for evil(that’s humor people, laugh it off).
Now, my personal take on the prosperity of pastors in general (not specifically at the City Church). My grandfather was a minister, serving very small churchs for a large denomination in Washington. The family was basically dirt poor growing up. In one town, they showed up and the parsonage didn’t have an indoor toilet. My grandmother said she didn’t have a problem with it if the members of the congregation lived in the same conditions… apparently plumbing was installed shortly thereafter. I won’t try to make a call on what constitutes appropriate prosperity for a pastor (this car, that car, this house etc.) but off the top of my head I recall scriptures saying that the ox should not be muzzled as it treads the grain and that leaders are due a double portion.
Regarding Mathew 6:1-4. I think that is specifically refering to tithing and offerings. Meaning if you’ve paraded around the front of the sanctuary and placed your check on the overhead projector for everyone to see, then you’ll reap neither the temporal rewards promised in Malachi 3:10, Deuteronomy 28:2, Proverbs 19:17, Romans 8:32 (the list goes on) nor the heavenly rewards of Mathew 6:20. And of course Luke 6:38 (shaken up, pressed down and overflowing) applys to giving and receiving of either type.
So here’s my question; if, per the scripture, you are seeking first the kingdom of God, and all of these things (eat, drink, clothes) are being added unto you, then where in the Bible does it say there is a cut-off point?
Disclosure: I’ve recently moved to Seattle, and though not a member of the City Church, I do attend there regularly and intend to become a member in the near future.
May God bless each of you,
Derek
PS Jack, I’ve just read your article on tithing, and though I’m definitely not a theologian, I was disturbed by several of your scriptural interpretations (not that that’s necessarily a bad thing). I’ll drop a note on your personal website for further discussion.
Isn’t it great that a (somewhat and occassionally) thoughtfully considered discussion could come from a website originally intended to mock?
September 13th, 2006 at 5:04 am
Thanks for the comment, Derek.
God uses all things for good. Even sinners like me.
September 13th, 2006 at 7:24 am
Derek said:
You’re right - being disturbed isn’t always a bad thing … and to be honest, with that 1st article on the tithe (there’s now 6 of them), the interpretations disturbed my flesh, too.
That article ( To Tithe Or Not To Tithe: The $earch For Truth ) marked the beginning of my deprogramming from the religious institution of man; as you can see by the opening remarks in the article, my view of the tithe was that it is mandatory, and my view of God was that He would manipulate people who did not tithe, with guilt.
And so, it was with much fasting and prayer and praying in the Spirit that the tithe article series came about; of being led by the Holy Spirit, verse by verse, sometimes backing up and reading whole books or chapters to get the correct cultural and historical context, or delving into the Greek through the Strong’s KJV/Greek reference Bible.
For example, the scripture you cited “muzzle the ox, while treading out the grain” - that is one often cited in support of the tithe, but what is it about, really? Food. Eating.
Understood in historical and cultural context of Jesus time, and the early Acts 2-4 church, they got together, and ate. And so Jesus, and the apostles got to eat the food set before them. But no one was building them buildings, setting up a payroll for them, cars, insurance, or 401k’s. Their sole entitlement, for doing the work of the gospel, was a seat at the common meal, and if in a strange town, a place to sleep at a ‘worthy’ believer’s house while going about the work of the gospel.
Read 1 Corinthians 9 in entirety. Note verse 4, which precedes Paul’s use of the ‘muzzle the ox’ metaphor. Vs. 4 says: “Don’t we (apostles) have the right to eat and drink”? The setup for what follows therefore, is about food.
Often, 1 Corinthians 9:14 is twisted to support the tithe or other giving. Commonly, it is interpreted (from the Greek):
1 Corinthians 9:14 ISV In the same way, the Lord has ordered that those who proclaim the gospel should make their living from the gospel.
One of the things the Spirit showed me from that scripture, while studying the Greek, is a subtle twist that the translators put on that scripture, by turning the Greek for “to live” into a “living” … in other words, they turned a VERB into a NOUN. And where our culture has an understanding of “living” as a wage/paycheck, most people think that scripture justifies paying gospel workers with money.
But consider all that Paul had to deal with in the Church at Corinth. Fighting, drunken-ness, carnal-nature, idol-worshipping women converted to Jesus who were disruptive, false apostles trying to discredit Paul, false brothers who were promoting circumcision, etc.
And so, in that context, Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians 9:14, make more sense as “the Lord has ordered that those who proclaim the gospel should live the gospel, and therefrom eat”. Where the Gospel message is community, sharing, sacrifice, giving, the apostle is to model those behaviors, NOT JUST PREACH THEM, and by teaching through example, the apostle will be fed by others AS THEY FOLLOW HIS EXAMPLE.
The scripture is not a set up for charging money for the gospel, the scripture is an exhortation to actually do what the gospel says, and therefrom share in the blessing of sharing and community.
I hope you’ll read all 6 articles, Derek. Admittedly, they are uncomfortable to read, but only because they are in opposition to common religious teachings of men, with institutions to support and uphold.
Going through all of this, I often asked myself a simple question as a ’sanity check’:
“Can I picture Jesus as the pastor of City Church and continuing to operate City Church in the way it is being run by Wendell Smith and Co.?”
(Of course for me, it wasn’t City Church and Wendell Smith - nevertheless, the basic question proved a good sanity check for what was happening to me in the transition from being a slave to religion to being a Son of God).
Blessings! Jack
September 13th, 2006 at 3:55 pm
Jack,
I guess my next two questions are for clarification then.
1) If the references to food are strictly to be intrepreted to mean physcial sustenance, what is the significance of communion? (not being flippant, a serious question so I can understand where you’re coming from)
2) What’s your take on my thoughts regarding Mathew 6:1-4 and the other scriptures I mentioned above?
—Regarding Mathew 6:1-4. I think that is specifically refering to tithing
—and offerings. Meaning if you’ve paraded around the front of the
—sanctuary and placed your check on the overhead projector for
—everyone to see, then you’ll reap neither the temporal rewards
—promised in Malachi 3:10, Deuteronomy 28:2, Proverbs 19:17, Romans
—8:32 (the list goes on) nor the heavenly rewards of Mathew 6:20. And
—of course Luke 6:38 (shaken up, pressed down and overflowing) applys
—to giving and receiving of either type.
Regarding your final question, of course things would be different if Jesus were personally running any single “church” here on earth. He’s God, we’re not. I applaud the way City Church is run, near as I can tell they’ve made a darn good attempt at running a New Testament church as it was blue-printed in the scripture. I see large sums flowing in and large sums flowing out. I see a dedicated staff in place so that Pastors can pastor. I see a vibrant youth and young adult program that doesn’t hesitate to say “This is what we believe is right.” (and that, to me, is vital. Whatever else is claimed, scripture is not wishy-washy. Revelation 3:16 “Because you are lukewarm - neither hot nor cold -I am about to spit you out of my mouth”) and I personally volunteer with the Foodbank ministry where I see a daily gathering of truckloads of food, distributed throughout the Redmond/Kirkland area and also passed along to ministries 4-5 hours away that don’t have an urban center to draw on for donations.
Sorry, a couple other questions for you. What does “home-church” mean? Is that sort of like home-school where you have a co-op kind of setup with other believers and you all worship together? Do you rotate volunteers through the leadership/coordination positions?
God Bless,
Derek
September 13th, 2006 at 7:30 pm
Hi Derek,
Let me first answer your question with a question; should the Bible ever be “liberally” interpreted, as opposed to “strictly” interpreted in the cultural/historical context in which it was written? I mean, why do we assume for example that our culture is good (the ‘American way / dream’) and that the Bible is to be interpreted within the context of our culture? It seems like a ’strict interpretation’ of scripture holds our culture accountable to the Bible, whereas a ‘liberal interpretation’ of scripture holds the Bible accountable to our culture.
Rather than just assume our culture is good / right and then liberally re-interpret the Bible to suit our culture, why wouldn’t we judge our materialism, love of money, corporate enslavement, etc., as wicked according to scripture?
Culturally / historically, the Hebrews / Israelites, were an agricultural people - raising flocks, herds, fruits and grains. Others had simple trade skills - like carpenter, fisherman, etc. God’s basic command to them, and for us, is the same as given to Adam: ‘go forth and multiply’ … and so our needs as far as God is concerned for His purpose, are food and clothing for us, sun and rain for crops, keeping the locust (etc.) from devouring crops, and protecting us from enemies who would otherwise kill or enslave us, thereby subjugating God’s command to multiply (make God a family / people).
Personally, I think it is error to interpret the Bible (scripture) in context of our culture (materialism, et al). We do not have need of all the stuff we claim to have need of. Most of what we claim we need, is really a want. The system of buying and selling, etc., really are elements of Babylon, which according to scripture is wicked, and scheduled for destruction.
…
As for ‘communion’ - hard to address that since I don’t know what your mindset is concerning communion. Mine has undergone radical change in recent years, from the idea of communion as a 0.375+/-.010″ cube of Wonder bread and 1/4 Oz. of Welches grape juice, to an understanding of the “Love Feast” as spoken of by Jude 1:12. Once again, the ‘communion’ or ‘Lord’s Supper’, in historical and cultural context of the Hebrew / Israelite people, was a traditional Passover meal, consisting of roast lamb, wine, bread, bitter herbs, etc., of which the people ate their fill. It is a traditional meal, celebrated with singing, readings, remembrances of God past, and looking to salvation, symbolic of the “hidden bread” (aka the ‘afikomen’). Suggest you Google “passover seder” or “afikomen” to get a more traditional view of “communion”.
My personal view is, when Jesus said “as often as you do this, remember me”, He meant - every time the Body gets together to eat and fellowship (i.e., love feast), to lift Him up in our conversation - to remember what He did - to acknowledge that for those millenia while the Hebrews were celebrating the passover meal, with the symbolic “hidden bread” (afikomen), they were doing a prophetic enactment of the coming Messiah, who would be broken, wrapped in a cloth, and laid in a tomb, and later found by His people.
Communion does not have to be served by someone ordained, or in any official capacity. Communion happens every time believers get together and break bread and lift up Jesus.
Matthew 6:1-4 - is about alms for the poor - and has nothing to do with the tithe. Alms for the poor are best given directly to the poor. As I saw so many times in the churches I once attended, they are great at collecting money for the poor, and full of excuses when it comes to distributing to the poor. Get ahold of an annual report, and work out the percentage of the bottom line given to the poor. I’ll bet most churches give less than 5% to the poor. You’re better off giving directly to the poor, discretely, anonymously.
Culturally and historically speaking Malachi 3:10 is talking about RAIN where it says “I will open the flood gates of heaven”. Israel was an agricultural community. Drought was often seen as punishment / judgment, and rain as blessing. I live in the corn belt now and have seen a few drought years. Believe me when I tell you farmers view RAIN as a blessing.
The historical and cultural context of Deuteronomy 28 is food and protection from enemies - pursuant to that original command of God: go forth and multiply. Why not read the scripture in context to see what “all THESE BLESSINGS” are?
Proverbs 19:17 - why do we assume that the ‘return’ on what we ‘lend to the Lord’ is something that we want? Doesn’t the Lord choose how we are rewarded for our acts of kindness to the poor, widows and orphans? Why would the Lord reward us with the things that “moth and rust” destroy, when He Himself exhorted us to invest in spiritual wealth. If we give to the poor with expectation of material payback from God, do we understand that we are opting for our reward in this life at the expense of our reward in the next? To be honest, I don’t get the “lend to the poor” thing - why the word “lend”? It isn’t like the poor are going to pay us back. So perhaps it speaks to the poor belonging to God, to God accepting responsibility for the poor, so when we provide for them, we are acting on God’s behalf? It’s kinda like God says “I owe you one, pardner”.
Romans 8:32 likens us to Christ and says “shall He not also give us all things”? Since the scripture likens us to Christ and says God will give us ALSO that which He gave Christ, why don’t we ask what God gave Christ while on earth? Those were: family, friends, freedom, wisdom, the Holy Spirit, peace, love, etc. God didn’t give Jesus money, cars, homes, etc. Jesus went without that. So why are we asking God to give us, that which He didn’t even give His only begotten son?
Luke 6:38 - the context is “do not judge”, “do not condemn”, show mercy. That is what you will receive back “pressed down, shaken together, overflowing” if you give the same. Where’s money in that?
…
I admire your food bank work. My mom did that for years, and I loved helping her on occasion. When my gospel band did concerts in the greater Seattle area through out the late 70’s and early 80’s, we routinely asked the people coming to the concerts to bring a can of food as the price of admission, which we left for the host church to give to the local food bank. All free-will offerings went to the food bank. That was a real joy to see.
…
House / home church. Just a ‘catch phrase’. There’s about a dozen references to worshipping / gathering in believers homes in the NT, and not one scripture about meeting in an dedicated church building, building funds, etc. And so there is a movement of people who feel that because they left the institutional / denominational church and now meet with believers in homes, (or home churches), that they are scripturally correct.
I think it’s silly to put the emphasis on where you meet. It’s who you meet that is important. See Where Do You Go To Church if you’re interested.
Sorry this is so long … you asked
… IF a person’s view is that scripture is to be adapted / reinterpreted for our times and culture, then everything I said is crap. However, that would subject scripture to our culture, and I believe that is wrong. It should be the other way around.
Go Dawgs! TTYL, Derek!
Jack
September 24th, 2006 at 4:24 pm
john444,
Much of what you have said has troubled me. Not because I am offended, but I am worried that your views may be warped by a fear of money. So much of the church is afraid of money. While I do agree with a few points you made in your article about giving to the poor and the fact that the church is the people who worship and not the place of worship, I must say that I disagree with most of your interpretations of the scriptures.
First and foremost is the fact that you know little to nothing about Pastor Judah Smith, who is an incredible man of God. You do not know that the house he owns he did not pay for all of, but thanks to a generous donation from a wealthier follower of Christ he was able to purchase the house. Secondly, you do not know that his house is almost always open to kids from his ministry to come over and hang out and learn from his example of the way that he lives. You do not know Pastor Judah, yet you judge him as someone who is in it for the money.
You do not know that while in high school, he demanded after his second year at a private Christian high school that his parents let him transfer to a public high school, where he was an outcast and preached the gospel to the students of that high school, and by the time he graduated saw doezens of his peers come to know the truth of Jesus Christ. Was he driven by money then too?
I still fail to comprehend this doctrine that just because one is a preacher of the gospel, he must be poor. Numerous times throughout the text God speaks of His desire to BLESS His children, not a desire for them to be poor and constantly in need. God says many times that He desires His people to PROSPER. While prosperity is not exclusive to money (ie. fruit of the spirit, gifts of the spirit, etc.), finances is a large part of prosperity.
There are numerous biblical examples of God’s chosen people being very prosperous. If you look at what the bible says Abraham had, he was probably one of the richest men to ever live. God commanded Moses and the children of Israel to take whatever they desired from the Egyptians on their way out. Throughout my reading of the scriptures, I find that God desires that His people be BLESSED and PROSPEROUS, not poor and constantly in need. I find that we, as people though, are often afraid of this prosperity.
I find the clincher to be Mark 10:17-31. It begins with Jesus counseling the rich young ruler who had kept the law since the days of his youth, but was unwilling to give all that he had to follow Jesus. Something we often overlook is what it says in verse 21, right before Jesus told him to leave all that he had to follow Him. The scripture says, “Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him..” Jesus looked at him and LOVED him, hence the reason he told the rich young ruler to leave all and follow him. The rich young ruler TRUSTED in his possessions and so long as he had them, he would not be able to fully trust God and inherit the blessing Jesus promised later in Mark 10:29-30.
Later on in the chapter (the Bible indicates no time lapse, but that this was in the same situation), after Jesus had said that it was harder for those who TRUSTED in riches to enter the kingdom of God, Jesus said in Mark 10:29-30, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel’s, 30 who shall not receive a hundredfold now IN THIS TIME - houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, WITH PERSECUTIONS - and in the age to come, eternal life.” Jesus promised these blessings IN THIS TIME and in heaven, not just in heaven. I also want to note that He said WITH PERSECUTIONS. This one, in my mind, seals the deal. Pastor Judah may have a comfortable home and a comfortable life, but his teaching has many people, Christian and non-Christian, up in arms because of his call to a passionate following of Christ, one that the believer gives ALL that he has for the purposes of the kingdom of God, just as the Bible indicates the beliver should and as you rightly say the believer should.
I do not go to GC in Seattle, but I go to an affiliated church in San Diego and have had the opportunity to hear Pastor Judah Smith on many occasions here in San Diego and in Seattle. He is a very powerful, very anointed man of God and I have nothing but the utmost respect for him and his ministry, as I have seen first hand the fruit of it. When you see the way that he is able to really connect with this generation (of which only 4% is a practicing Christian), you realize that he is one of many powerful youth pastors God is raising up as a standard for this generation. I have had many opportunities to hang out with Pastor Judah and have discussions with him, and I can tell you that he is a man who lives up to his preaching. The lifestyle he lives is an incredible example to young people like myself (I am only 18) and he practices what he preaches to the utmost. Like the way that last December, when he was down here, he took me and 20 other interns at our church (who are all relying on God’s miraculous provision at this time in out lives to pay the bills) who were hanging out with him one night to the premiere of The Chronicles of Narnia and paid for us ALL. That is the man behind the preaching.
September 25th, 2006 at 6:38 am
I can’t help you see, Timothy. Suffice it to say, that the example most self-proclaimed men of God claim to follow is Jesus, who had no money, no home, no retirement, no corner office. No - like the loaves and fishes miracle demonstrated, Jesus (AS PRIEST) took the humble offering of a follower, thanked the Father for it, broke it, and then gave it right back (100%) to the people who gave it. And the Father blessed and multiplied it. Jesus, THE PRIESTLY EXAMPLE, didn’t keep anything for Himself, though He was entitled. So why do PRIESTS today not give thanks for an offering, break it, and send it back out to the people who gave it?
Paul who understood Jesus EXAMPLE, did the same. He refused to keep anything for himself, though he (Paul) was entitled. We know Paul had a day job for the money/material things he needed. And Paul exhorted those in ministry to “be like me”; i.e., get a day job, and refuse to accept money for the gospel, and thereby hinder the gospel by money.
I’d have been impressed IF Jonah had taken that gift he used to buy his house, and gave it to the poor and hungry - as that would have been following Jesus (and Paul’s) EXAMPLE.
As for preaching in high school - is that really what we’re called to do? Put up a soap box in the locker room and preach? I’ve always wondered at guys like that - for the Bible says in 1 Peter 3:15
“… and be always prepared to give an answer to every one that asks you to give an account of the hope that is in you, but with meekness and fear;” (1 Peter 3:15 Darby)
And so there is a Biblical order to testifying. First, simply let the joy / love of Christ shine through you that others may see it. Second, when others see that joy / love in you, and ASK you about it, THEN answer them, with MEEKNESS and FEAR (respect / reverence). So, in light of that scripture, how is the ’soapbox’ approach in the lockerroom in meekness and fear, how is it in response to being ASKED to give an acocunt? Seems to me it’s more to do with ramming religion down people’s throats.
The ‘ramming religion down people’s throats’ is the modus operandi of the Pharisees, Scribes and Teachers of the Law, who scour the world in search of a convert, and thereby make sons of hell of them through their religious teachings. (Matthew 23:15). As you may recall, Jesus scolded them most severely (Matthew 23).
Note - I’ve listened online to some of Jonah’s preaching. I often find it nauseating. The last one I listened to - a week ago - he was teaching from a 1400 page manual - your basic “how to be a Christian” manual. Good Lord: “turn to page 1400 of your ‘How To Be a Good Christian’ manual”. Barf!
And that’s where he lost me - and I wish he would lose ALL of his blind followers. How on earth can anyone be taught to be a Christian? I thought being a Christian was all about being filled with Jesus Christ via the Holy Spirit, where sripture says that the True Sons of God are the ones who follow the Spirit? It isn’t a person’s learned / modified behavior that makes them a Christian, it’s being In Christ and Christ being in them. Jonah has kids thinking that they are saved by their behavior - by their doctrine - by their tithes and offerings - by following THE MANUAL! And therein, Jonah is making SONS OF HELL of them.
The man who thinks he can teach someone to be a Christian is a fool, and does NOT know the gospel.
Lastly, concerning the passage you cited - Mark 10:29-30, what makes you think that the payback is in worldly riches, for example, the man who gives up 1 child, will he get 100 children back? Why don’t you relate that to the other scripture, where Jesus told you to lay up treasures in heaven which month and rust do not destroy? What are the treasures of Heaven? The presence of the Lord! Wisdom! Knowlege! Fullness of the Spirit! It doesn’t mean “give up one wife and get 100 in return IN THIS LIFE”. Jesus says “MY WORDS ARE SPIRIT” (John 6:63) - why not look at what Jesus said therefore with SPIRITUAL eyes/mind?
Anyhow - I wish Jonah good luck with his camel.
Jack
September 25th, 2006 at 8:37 am
Jack, it really pains me to think you actually believe there is some sort of 1400 page manual for living as a Christian. It was sarcasm.
He is in fact teaching how to be a disciple and lead others to be disciples. The manual he uses (though primarily referring to the Bible) is called “5b.”
It is a small (4×6) 70 page book designed to help new Christians during the first 5 weeks of their faith. The first step? Repent, be baptized in Jesus Name and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This comes from Acts 2:38. Which, by the way, was Paul giving the first sermon to the New Testament Church… to a crowd of at least 3,000. Meek does not mean fear of the world or fear of confrontation. Meek means trained to follow the commands of one’s master. Warhorses were considered meek, Jack, because they followed their master’s commands into battle, even though an untrained horse would have fled at the first sound of fighting.
I tried to read your “tithing” letters Jack, but just couldn’t do it, primarily because I found them so frustrating. As I read, it seemed like every one of the scripture quotations was misinterpreted in some way so as to support your “no-tithing” doctrine (an exageration I’m sure, but in my frustration, that’s how it felt). You have gone so far to the other extreme that you appear to believe that there is absolutely nothing in the Bible about Christians receiving God’s abundance here on earth. Jack, if the Bible is to be only interpreted literally, how then can we stop tithing? Didn’t Jesus say that nothing would be removed from the law? If that’s the case then you are required to tithe. Period. If your church is a house-church with only 5 members, then the 5 of you should be tithing (and that is in addition to offerings and alms). If you believe it should only be food, then so be it. Perhaps you can donate it to a local homeless shelter, but the Bible says, “Tithe.”
Jack, God wants to provide for us and he wants to do so abundantly. Anyone who believes that the Bible is only referring to earthly abundance is incorrect, but so also is anyone who believes in abundance all things EXCEPT earthly abundance. Will there be seasons of drought? Most likely (look at Job as an example, he lost everything but received back even more than he had lost. Yes that’s right; in addition to everything else, Job is also a book about prosperity).
I’m not going to continue reading or responding to this website, for a couple of reasons. First off, it seems to me that in doing so, I appear to condone taking Church business outside the Church. Second, I’ve come to realize that my own attempts to open your eyes will most likely come to naught and so this time spent typing on the internet would be better spent praying for you that God, Jehovah Jireh, would open your eyes and heart to receive the blessing that he has for you.
May God truly bless you Jack; I know that you have a heart for ministry and gifting. I hope and pray that you will open it to receive the abundance of God so that as he blesses you with funds, your ministry can be blessed and multiplied.
Timothy, I would advise you to speak with your Pastors before you continue posting on this site.
Blessings on you in the Name of Jesus,
Derek
September 25th, 2006 at 8:45 am
(sorry, one more thing… I’m human so it’s allowed)
In a previous post Jack, you said there was nothing about the early Church meeting in dedicated buildings… How can you say that in light of Acts 2:46-47 which states that in addition to “breaking bread from house to house” they met “daily with one accord in the temple?”
September 25th, 2006 at 9:07 am
The difference is simple, Derek. One can interpret the scriptures based on tradition, religion, institutionalism, culture, self-will, etc., OR, one can interpret them according to the teaching and leading of the Holy Spirit (see 1 John 2:27). Stick to the latter method. The Holy Spirit will always steer you right.
As for Jonah discipling people, please study Matthew 28:19. It says we are to make disciples (introduce people to Jesus through our living witness) through baptism, NOT that we are to disciple them. Once made disciples, the job of “discipling” belongs to the Holy Spirit (1 John 2:27).
Regarding frustration, have you ever read:
Creation was subjected to frustration but not by its own choice. The one who subjected it to frustration did so in the hope that it would also be set free from slavery to decay in order to share the glorious freedom that the children of God will have. (Romans 8:20-21 GW)
Frustration is the path to freedom, Derek. Don’t turn back just because your flesh is frustrated by the truth about the tithe lie being spread by the institutional church.
May you be blessed with truth, as well.
Jack
September 25th, 2006 at 9:21 am
You quote that passage without understanding the context, my friend.
Ouch. Sure you want to try to make it to Heaven by doing everything in the Law? The obvious implication is that we can’t do that, and Christ came to fulfill the Law by becoming sin for us.
One could easily replace “circumcision” with “tithing” here. Paul’s point was that Christianity is not about observing the Law to establish our faith or be “good Christians” (but then again Paul believes this term to be an oxymoron if you read Romans 7 and 1 Tim. 1:15) it’s about expressing your faith in love. In the context of giving, tithing is the Law, and we are no longer under the Law if we live by the Spirit.
I’ll echo Jack’s sentiments here: your frustration is a good sign that you are able to question this at all, rather than just writing it off. A willingness to question is a good way to find the truth for yourself. Jack’s comments (and hopefully mine too) on tithing aren’t motivated by selfish gain, but out of a love for the Body of Christ. We’d rather see the church motivated by love rather than by the Law when it comes to giving.
September 25th, 2006 at 9:26 am
Easy.
The temple was Jewish, wasn’t it? Do you know about the history of “the Way” then? That for a very brief time (Acts 2-6), Judaism and ‘the Way’ shared the temple, co-mingled, if you will?
But, there arose a great persecution - at the time that Stephen was stoned to death. And when that persecution broke out, the believers were driven from the temple, into hiding. See the story of Stephen in Acts 6-7. Then see Acts 8:1 concerning the persecution.
Now, consider what the early church was doing in Acts 2-4, in light of Matthew 28:18-20 (?) - the ‘Great Commission’ - Jesus told them to GO OUT INTO ALL THE WORLD. Were they obeying Jesus by huddling together in the temple? Could it be that Acts 2-4 is not an example of how ‘The Way’ - or the early Church - should meet - but rather - is a record of their disobedience to Jesus command “GO OUT INTO ALL THE WORLD”? What did the Father have to DO to get the early Church OFF their behinds and OUT INTO THE WORLD? He let the persecution come upon them, which according to Acts 8:1 had the desired effect of SCATTERING them throughout the world.
So, in context not only of the brief passage you quoted, consider the words of Stephen in Acts 7:48 concerning the Temple:
Howbeit the most High dwelleth NOT in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, (Acts 7:48 KJV)
Interesting to note what Paul says, 10 chapters later. You see, as the robes were laid at Paul’s feet, while the crowds stoned Stephen, I can only imagine the deep, and lasting effect that “angelic face” of Stephen, and his words “Father, forgive them”, had upon Paul. I have to believe it all haunted Paul. There Paul was, a jew, protecting the Temple and Judaism - the law - the system. Yet for all Paul’s knowledge and zeal, he did NOT know the joy and the Spirit of God that Stephen knew. Paul tried to snuff out that joy, and Spirit, in favor of the Temple and the Law and the Religious System. Not sure, but Paul may have still been alive, when that very Temple was destroyed by Titus in 70 AD.
Years later, after being confronted on the Road to Damascus, being struck blind by the Spirit of the Lord, for the blind man that Paul really was, after being humbled by the Spirit, and shown that the teachings of man were foolishness, and that only knowing Christ mattered, a broken and humbled Paul repeated the words uttered by Timothy, for which Timothy was murdered:
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth NOT in temples made with hands; (Acts 17:24 KJV)
Talk about repentence! Talk about a confession!
And please, don’t try to play word games with me. My words were very specific: what dedicated religious facility did the church ever build in the NT? My comments were specific to the building fund / drive madness that grips most churches.
At who’s feet have you laid your cloak to stone me, Derek?
Jack
September 25th, 2006 at 9:28 am
Derek, if that’s really your take on Jesus and the law, where do you get your animals for your annual burnt offerings at the temple and how do you keep PETA from picketing your house?
September 25th, 2006 at 9:39 am
Forgive an old man
… I meant Stephen, not Timothy. Got carried away by the Spirit, there, I guess. 
September 25th, 2006 at 9:47 am
++As for Jonah discipling people, please study Matthew 28:19. It says we are to make disciples (introduce people to Jesus through our living witness) through baptism, NOT that we are to disciple them. Once made disciples, the job of “discipling” belongs to the Holy Spirit (1 John 2:27).++
I dont necessarily agree - The Greek verb translated GO is actually not a command but a present participle (going). The only command in the entire Great Commission is “make disciples”. Jesus said, “While your GOING, make disciples of all nations.” No matter where we are, we should be witnesses for Jesus and seek to win others to Him (Acts 11:19-21).
The term “disciples” was the most popular name for the early believers. The word ‘apprentice’ is actually a more accurate term or equivalent term. A disciple attached himself to a teacher, identified with him, learned from him, not simply by listening but also by doing. Jesus called twelve disciples and taught them so that they might be able to teach others (Mark 3:13).
A disciple, then, is one who has believed on Jesus Christ and expressed this faith by being baptized. He remains in the church so that he might be taught the truths of the faith (Acts 2:41-47). He is then able to go out and teach others. This was the pattern of the NT church (2 Tim 2:1-2)
Jesus had opened the minds of His disciples to understand the Scriptures (Luke 24:44-45). They knew what He wanted them to teach their own converts. It is not enough to win people to Jesus, we also have to teach them the Word of God. This is also a part of the Great Commission.
Jesse
September 25th, 2006 at 11:03 am
Good points, Jesse.
I view it as a which came first thing, the chicken or the egg. Do men first teach, with later confirmation by the Holy Spirit (all that is taught should be confirmed by the Spirit - or ‘witnessed’ by the spirit, hence ‘test all things’). Or, does the Holy Spirit do the teaching, with men witnessing what the Holy Spirit teaches? Or is it both ways?
There is evidence in scripture that suggests men can not teach - among them even Jesus example. Peter followed Jesus for 2 full years before confessing “you are the Christ / Messiah, the son of the living God”. Jesus doesn’t say “man, it took you long enough, I didn’t think I’d ever get through that thick skull of yours, Pete”. No, Jesus said “the FATHER revealed that to you”, and that suggests that learning things of a spiritual nature must come from the Spirit (see 1 Corinthians 2:14).
And so the teaching / revelation of the Spirit comes first, whereby what men are really doing is simply witnessing to the work of the Spirit. They are not imparting anything on their own, or anything original, they are just testifying to the knowledge and wisdom that the Spirit has already imparted or is presently imparting.
Absent the Spirit, there is no teaching (learning).
Biblically, I do wonder about the so-called 5-fold roles. Scripture shows the Apostles teaching. And there are also Prophets/esses, Evangelists, Shepherds and Teachers. Are prophets supposed to teach? Or Shepherds teach? If you look at 1 Corinthians 14, who’s bringing the “word of God” to the Church? I’ll give you a hint, it’s NOT the Shepherds / Pastors. OK - I’ll tell you - it’s the PROPHETS - by the Spirit of Prophecy / Holy Spirit.
There is no Biblical model for the ‘1 man pastor show’ where every thing in a religious service points to the pulpit center stage and the pastor who brings the message. 1 Cor. 14:26 talks about EVERYONE bringing to the table (love feast) that portion which the Holy Spirit has given them.
And so, it is the Holy Spirit who teaches, through those He moves through in the assembly, and by confirmation of the Holy Spirit in the listeners.
What I’m trying to say, in part Jesse, is that the modern incarnation of the church as become a very stagnant / static thing - with one man - presumably God’s elect representative for that congregation, doing the teaching, being the center of attention. But I believe the Father designed a more living, dynamic, organic Church, whereby the teaching is brought by anyone filled and inspired by the Holy Spirit, in the assembly of the saints (wherever there are 2 or 3 gathered).
I do NOT think that scipture establishes / validates the type of teacher that we have seen in Frank, Jonah, et al. For the simple reason that they have utterly silenced the congregation, and thereby the work of the Holy Spirit in / through the other body members, and are therefore grieving the Holy Spirit, and making sons of hell of their followers.
When was the last time someone (a prophet/ess) stood up in the assembly (CBC, GenChurch, et al), and said “Brother, the discernment of the Holy Spirit in me will NOT let what you just said stand, for the written word of God says: …” how often have you seen the ‘testing’ that is prescribed in 1 Cor. 14, or 1 Thes. 5 (?), happen in the assembly? When was the last time you saw a good debate between the man who professes to be the pastor/teacher, and someone (with discernment) in the Body? Or is what the “man of God” says / teaches accepted without question?
Guess I don’t think we teach, nearly as much as we witness to what the Holy Spirit is teaching. And for me, that ‘witnessing’ to the things of the Spirit almost ALWAYS comes with a great sense of excitement! As in “Yes! \o/ The Spirit showed me that, too!”
;)
Jack
September 25th, 2006 at 12:24 pm
This is what I love about CBC blogging: 8:37am Derek says:
8:45am Derek says:
You just can't quit can you? Always needing the last word. Well, Timothy, I'm not sure what you should do…but I don't think I'd spend much time listening to Derek.
September 25th, 2006 at 12:33 pm
I wouldn’t listen to Derel either, Timothy.
“Hi, I’m Derel and this is my other brother, Derel, er, Derek … aw hell, doesn’t matter … either way, we’re both idiots …”
September 25th, 2006 at 3:09 pm
Thanks RED.
September 25th, 2006 at 7:26 pm
You bet, JP. That’s what fiends are for.
Red
December 11th, 2006 at 6:28 pm
honestly i hope to God that one day my youth church is shaking things up like Judah’s is. In fact i think the coolest thing in the world would be to have a christian site bashing the fact that God has favored my youth group, and my youth pastor. Also im saddened by the fact that you christians live such a life of poverty and war. You are shooting at a man of God, who is being used to save thousands of teenagers from Hell, and to be quite honest i hope you are prepared for the consequences of so foolishly mocking a man of God. You wonder how come none of you have any money like Judah? Try to bless authority instead of cursing it and see what happens…
December 11th, 2006 at 6:50 pm
I just love assumptions.
December 11th, 2006 at 7:50 pm
interesting concept… I didnt think real men talked of their sex lives in public, and especially in front of children with impressionable minds.
December 11th, 2006 at 7:54 pm
They DON’T. Doing so dishonors themselves and their wife.
One more thing, Judah has his position because of one thing, and one thing only:
Nepotism.
December 11th, 2006 at 8:18 pm
Have you people checked out his MY SPACE page lately?
He says: “Please note: I have help maintaining this MySpace profile from my friend Sean, who is also one of my disciples and a church staff member. If you have question for me directly, it might be better to go through the church offices….”
His disciple? Jim Jones had disciples too. So did Jesus. So, is he a man-made god or is he a cult leader? Enlighten me people…
And check it out:
December 11th, 2006 at 8:18 pm
http://www.myspace.com/judahsmith
December 11th, 2006 at 8:46 pm
I went to www.dictionary.com, because I was simply amazed that anyone would actually use the word “Disciple” if not referring to THE disciples.
Here’s what it said:
–noun 1. Religion.
a. one of the 12 personal followers of Christ.
b. one of the 70 followers sent forth by Christ. Luke 10:1.
c. any other professed follower of Christ in His lifetime.
2. any follower of Christ.
3. (initial capital letter) a member of the Disciples of Christ.
4. a person who is a pupil or an adherent of the doctrines of another; follower: a disciple of Freud.
–verb (used with object) 5. Archaic. to convert into a disciple.
6. Obsolete. to teach; train.
So I guess Sean is a pupil or adherant to the doctrine of Judah Smith.
By the way, just a personal observation, Judah needs a hair stylist… badly.
December 11th, 2006 at 8:47 pm
ewwwwwwwww.. he used the effeminate pose for his myspace photo…
December 11th, 2006 at 8:49 pm
He’s 28 and doesn’t know how to use a hair comb, yet he has “Disciples”.
Freaking AMAZING!
December 11th, 2006 at 9:03 pm
I got all lost in your myspace page the other night BTBeauty. Good stuff.
December 12th, 2006 at 3:23 pm
Thanks for the enlightenment, Reformed Heathen. And thanks, Locutus, for the compliment. My next post will be for you.
December 12th, 2006 at 11:24 pm
Want money?? Become a pastor of a mega church and sell lots of crap, write books about nothing, tapes and so on!
December 13th, 2006 at 9:46 am
Better yet, be that pastor’s son and heir…
December 13th, 2006 at 1:34 pm
Reforming heathen,
I bet your “bald” or at the least you have a receding hairline???? Am I right or am I right……….
December 14th, 2006 at 10:14 pm
Judah Smith!
I heard you speak for the second time this last week… and then met your wife in Nordstroms right before I was going to a business meeting at Starbucks to make a deal, your wife prayed for me right then and there and things are looking great! Love this type of community! Preach on!
December 15th, 2006 at 12:55 pm
Of course– Nordstrom’s
December 16th, 2006 at 6:06 am
Neiman-Marcus is too far away.
December 17th, 2006 at 1:04 am
What about Pic n Save? At least I never have to worry about running into
people from my old world there. Just doesn’t happen.
December 17th, 2006 at 1:05 am
What they don’t have Dolce & Gabanna shoes there?
December 17th, 2006 at 1:07 am
It’s great to be mega-pastor!
December 17th, 2006 at 9:20 am
Hey, if you are teaching:
“Join us, and you will be successful!”
you had better look successful yourself!
December 17th, 2006 at 8:19 pm
I want to be a pastors wife!!
Not.
Nordstroms clothes are crap. They fall apart in no time at all!
And… no CBCer’s at Pic n Save?? I will have to try it.
December 26th, 2006 at 2:21 pm
poser.
February 14th, 2007 at 5:29 am
Umm…I think you guys are just jelous of Judah’s success. If you want to make money in this country you can be prosperous, just get off your lazy butts and do it and stop hating people who have more money than you. I mean have we got nothing better to do than to persecute a pastor who has been doing plenty of good in the community? Get a freakin life people, because it is not your place to judge. Oh and I think plenty of rich people will be in heaven…I’ll be there
February 14th, 2007 at 9:12 am
****STANDING OVATION*****
I nominate this for comment of the year.
February 14th, 2007 at 9:21 am
How much does a freakin life go for now-a-days? I need to get me a new one of those!
BTW…for what it’s worth Paul K. (PK…ironic!)…I’m fairly certain Judah isn’t making more a year than a LOT of us here, so, uh… jealousy…isn’t even in the top 10 reasons of why we have issue with Mr. Southern Accent!
February 14th, 2007 at 5:21 pm
What’s with all the hate mongering in a Christian Forum? If you don’t like the guy, simply don’t go to his church. I don’t think it can be any more clear than that, not create a forum on why you dislike him. I think it is everyone’s personal preference and there are plenty of other churches in the region you can choose from. (oh and the Ironic P.K. comment…it’s true too, I am a Preachers Kid…very ironic my dad is a minister)
February 14th, 2007 at 5:57 pm
So, you’re saying, you’re the son of a pastor, and your dad is a reverend? Or that your dad is a man of the cloth, and since he is your father, you are a padre’s kid? Are you sure your dad isn’t a vicar? Just to be clear, you’re trying to tell us that your father is a clergyman, and that makes you the son of a parson? I would hate to jump to an erroneous conclusion about you … just to be certain, what I believe I hear you saying, is that your father is a chaplain, and that would make you the son of of a rector?
Is what you’re trying to say?
I thought you said you were rich? Oh - I get it - your real NAME must be Rich.
Stup’
February 16th, 2007 at 9:12 am
Well…I was merely saying that is ironic because my initials are P.K. and I also happen to be a P.K. (preacher’s kid). But thanks for those very wise remarks…I think you just made me lose a few I.Q. points from reading them…thanks a lot.
-Paul K.
February 16th, 2007 at 9:32 am
PK…
A lot of comments on this blog will make you lose some I.Q. points.
But fortunately many of them will also get you thinking about some really tough topics from a wider range of perspectives than most church dwellers are used to, and well…
a lot of us here have found that to be helpful to fostering a deeper, more real, relationship with Christ than anything we ever got out of the IC!
For what it’s worth…I’m not a Judah hater. I just don’t like what he’s selling. I bought it once before and found it hurtful. So I prefer others be warned about buying it too.
If it works for you, we’ll chat about it some day in Heaven.
February 16th, 2007 at 11:44 am
PK - don’t let ‘Stupid Reader’ get to you - he got a thesaurus for Christmas and has been annoying as hell ever since …
‘Scrupe
February 17th, 2007 at 8:51 pm
I wonder why soo much of you hate, He is doing a great job. I love listen to his services on podcast… Its hard for some people to understand gods works but 1 day you will and i hope its not going to be late for you guys/gals, It will be far worse then you can ever imagine. So i’ll pray for you guys…
February 18th, 2007 at 9:24 am
Love Jesus—— He may be charismatic, he may be gifted, he may be doing a great job….
But talking about his sex life as he does …. that is IMMATURE.
February 18th, 2007 at 6:46 pm
i notice everyone points out all the tiny flaws and stuff but yet all the haters dont say the good he does.. Check hos myspace and read the comments
February 18th, 2007 at 8:39 pm
“Haters”, LJ? How old are you, son? Several of the folks here have known Judah since childhood, others are mature (read: fatherly/elderly) spirit-filled saints who have been walking with the Lord since before Judah was even born. They have listened to Judah preach and teach and have subjected what they heard from him to the discernment of the Holy Spirit as Judah’s elders / elders in the Body of Christ.
LJ, I’m not saying that like some heavy handed put down - but just an observation of blogs and other eForums - they don’t convey vital information about the people who post - like age - maturity - education - experience - gifting/anointedness … several people here whom you have called ‘haters’ are in their 50’s. People I’m sure you would not call “haters” if you were to speak with them face to face in a church setting.
That touches on one of my biggest beefs with blogs and eforums - they’re de-personalizing - just pixels on a screen - several steps removed from intimate / relational Christian fellowship … it’s far too easy to blast at the pixels on the screen without acknowledging the person who is on the other side …
There’s no haters here, LJ.
Sam
February 20th, 2007 at 3:27 am
Sam,
People in their 50’s can be “haters” just as well. It seems to me that you look at love jesus and discredit him/her because you assume that he/she is of young age, and make yourself and others more credible because of…what, age? It makes no sense. If you feel however, that because you might be older, that automatically makes you wiser, then more power to you.
I am not a member of the city church, nor a member of Generation Church. I have heard Judah preach, and listen to his podcasts. I think he is a man of God, and will be rewarded in heaven. Again, we may disagree with little aspects of his theology, but we should also look at what the good he is doing. To create one of the fastest growing youth churches in the Northwest is incredible! I hope that you, me and Judah will be able to discuss this in heaven in a more “intimate / realtional Christian Fellowship.”
Paul K.
February 20th, 2007 at 7:41 am
I wonder if during the apostle Paul’s time, when the Judahizers were requiring the gentiles to be circumcised, if you would have referred to the issue as a “tiny flaw” or “little aspect of theology”?
It was a BIG issue, Paul. In fact, I’m certain it was the motivation for Paul to write Galatians, which if you read carefully, Paul writes that anyone who preaches the law and tries to bring the sons of God in Christ back under the yoke of the law, that such are false brothers, who I presume, are to be shown the door.
Galatians 4:17 MSG Those heretical teachers go to great lengths to flatter you, but their motives are rotten. They want to shut you out of the free world of God’s grace so that you will always depend on them for approval and direction, making them feel important.
Galatians 5:9 MSG And please don’t toss this off as insignificant. It only takes a minute amount of yeast, you know, to permeate an entire loaf of bread.
Judah is teaching the law - sometimes the law of Moses (tithing, et al), and sometimes the law of a rotten religious organization that observes many human laws and rules. He is making young people into slaves of the law.
That my friend, is a BIG issue, not a trifling one.
When I speak of maturity, Paul, I mean spiritual maturity. Often, spiritual maturity goes hand in hand with years of age, though not always. One need only listen to Judah for awhile to discern his immaturity and error. Likewise, it’s not hard to hear the spiritual immaturity of some posters who write off Judah’s grievous error as “tiny flaws” and “little aspects of theology” while trumpeting the “good” he does, where “good” is measured in numbers of proselytes.
Have you forgotten that man ate from the tree of “knowledge of good and evil”, and it totally screwed us up? We are incapable of rightly telling “good and evil”, so, why call Judah “good”?
Not even Jesus allowed people to call him “good”.
Mark 10:17-18 MSG As he went out into the street, a man came running up, greeted him with great reverence, and asked, “Good Teacher, what must I do to get eternal life?” (18) Jesus said, “Why are you calling me good? No one is good, only God.
Suggest you bone up on the Spirit and the Word, sonny.
Sam
February 21st, 2007 at 11:08 am
So you are calling Judah a “False Brother” with “Rotten Motive” ? Am I understanding you correctly oh ever so wise one? Please give me some more spirit and word for I am incapable of biblical knowledge.
-Paul
February 21st, 2007 at 11:41 am
Would you prefer “hireling” (John 10) because he herds sheep unto himself and bilks them of tithes and offerings, while he lives a far better standard of life than most of his young proselytes? Or perhaps “judahizer” because he preaches the law? Perhaps “pharisee” is more appropriate since he preaches holiness in one moment and then talks about sex with his wife and many other inappropriate sexual / carnal references the next?
As for calling Judah a “false brother” with “rotten motive”, ’twasn’t me who said that, ’twas scripture …
Hey, I got an idea, why don’t you review Judah’s How TIGHT do YOU want it sermon for us? Of course we’d like to know how many sexual references he uses, how many general carnal references (showering naked, farting, stuff like that), how many times he boasts about his wife, how many self references he uses - our findings suggest that is routine for a Judah sermon … and it’s gotten to where I can’t stand to listen to him for all the carnal crap that comes out of him …
We’d be grateful for good sermon review …
Sam
February 21st, 2007 at 12:04 pm
For what my little opinion is worth…
I would NOT doubt for one second that Judah’s motives are very sincere. I’m sure he feels he is touching a lot of peoples’ lives, doing something he has been raised to believe is God’s work, and has resulted in a “comfortable” lifestyle for himself.
I can’t judge intention, because I can’t see his heart and mind like God can, so saying he has a “Rotten Motive” is taking it a bit far.
Whether he is a “False Brother” or not is a whole other topic though. You see, I think Judah-believers see what they think is a ton of good fruit falling from the “I’m having more sex than you” tree (eg. the “thousands” of UofW students being converted in his campus ministries), and you think he is doing the Lord’s work.
Others here just disagree, founding their contention on the fact that what he is selling is legalistic, judgmental, and elitist.
For people who have NOT gotten to a point of awakening at the bill of goods the IC is selling (Judah included), I can respect why you would defend him so. But when that awakening occurs, you’ll understand much more clearly why some of us here decry what he is all about.
Again…my humble little opinion.
February 21st, 2007 at 3:19 pm
Other people with good intentions and serving God or a god with all their heart…
Jim Jones, Mormons, J.Dubs… and many more
Does that make them pure and holy and proper?
February 21st, 2007 at 4:09 pm
Don’t forget David Koresh…I’ve heard he was dynamic like Judah is!
February 21st, 2007 at 5:32 pm
It’s interesting to me that many feel that today we are not “qualified” to judge another. Paul pointed fingers and blew the whistle all the time on false teachers. I wish I could travel back in time and live in that culture long enough to compare. Surely if he were here he would be seen as too judgmental and harsh. But I wonder who he would finger and call out?
And where are the Paul’s of today? I’ve looked at the websites of some men brave enough (foolish enough) to name the false teachers of our day.
Some of the lists include Billy Graham!
I don’t claim to have the gift of discernment, but I do think there are prob. many many false teachers. And I think it’s ok to point them out. (If you’re right). But I couldn’t tell you who they are.
I can tell you that I would not let my child attend a conference where Judah was speaking, based upon his sermon titles alone. A man of God does not need to sensationalize a message. The cross and Him crucified is enough.
Frankly, I’m ashamed of Wendell and Gini for allowing a leader in their house to publicly post a sermon title so blatantly carnal. Whatever purity there was before marriage for Judah, seems lost at this juncture.
February 21st, 2007 at 6:43 pm
Hi Grey Sheep,
When we discern someone a ‘false brother’, is it because he is not our brother, or Jesus brother? What if the standard for whether or not someone is a true brother, is whether they point the way to Jesus exclusively without inserting themselves in the middle of a persons relationship between that person and Jesus?
To me, brotherhood recognizes Jesus as the no. 1 son, the first born, and all us younger sibs are just keen to see people become brothers of our big brother too … the true brother is all about Jesus … the true brother does not compete with Jesus for the attention of the brethren …
Perhaps the difference between a true and false brother, is selflessness and selfishness.
If I should bring a brother to the Lord, do I try to hang on to him? Is he my disciple, or the Lord’s? Do I hang on so I can boast of his flesh or make him pay for gospel lessons? Seems like a true brother is totally non-possessive and eager to see someone wholly give to Jesus.
At least, that’s what occurs to me now …
Sam
February 22nd, 2007 at 10:49 am
I agree, Sam.
If more people were selflessly pointing the way to Jesus the world would be a MUCH better place.
February 25th, 2007 at 8:05 pm
that is the stupidest correlation i have ever heard.
Quick question, who on this forum has a church or is personally a youth pastor of a student ministry that numbers over 1600?
Both City Bible, and City Church do. I really dont care what the heck your views are on their money or preaching, hair, clothes, purity message….when it all boils down, Judah is being used to tear teenagers away from alcohal, drugs, and sex and turn them towards God. i know…im one of them.
March 18th, 2007 at 5:10 am
Comment
I believe in the bible, I believe there is only one interpretation of it, and I believe not everyone knows the real interpretation of the bible. To he who has an ear, let him hear. In the end times, God is going to raise of a church that knows the truth, a church that will defy all types of churches. I remember reading in Revelations that the two witnesses in Revelation 11, have a ministry that is based on repentence. The bible calls us to test all things, and I have currently been testing Judah. Rather than throwing all my hopes, dreams, worldview, and reality, into Judah Smith messages, I listen to him, and try to reason with everything he says.
I dont believe Judah Smith is the start of the endtimes church. Ofcourse Judah Smith is speaking lots of truth, and telling teens about the reality of Christ. But he is not my hero, he is not my leader, he is just another guy. My hero, and my leader came, and gave his life for me, and everyone I love. My hero is Jesus Christ, and he didnt sell truth to people, And let me tell you, HOW MUCH MONEY, CAN JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF!, MILK OUT OF ANY WORLD. Having all the knowledge and wisdom in the world, Jesus could have made money everywhere with his mouth. But Jesus didnt use his Knowledge, wisdom and power for his financial gain, and his servant Paul would rather DIE than DO IT! And let me tell you this! I know for sure that Jesus had the real truth, the real intrepretation of the bible, the one I am after, the one I want to have. Jesus Christ was even asked by Satan personally, if you want everything in the world, all its riches, kingdoms, and people, just bowdown and worship me and its yours. If Satan is willing to ask Jesus, why not offer Judah the opportunity to profit off of truth? To take the truth that was giving to him freely, and sell it for $5.99, or $29.99. But the sad part is, Satan probably didnt even have to offer Judah anything, Judah went out and made the mistake of selling truth himself. I believe Judah Smith has not yet gathered the fact that its not right to sell truth, and i would like to believe this because he is gladly doing, would Paul would rather DIE THAN DO! Was not Paul closer to the truth than Judah Smith?A good question to ask myself is this. Is Judah Smith a current leader of the endtimes Church? In my opinion, no, the endtimes church will be focused on one thing, Repentence, and people are going to cry out in repentence, and cry, and cry. When the real truth comes, people will see the real leaders of truth, who will represent the face of Christ himself. The real leaders of truth will speak with the same authority as Jesus Christ, they will be cups full of reality, spilling upon the ears of a world in darkness. Love will be redifined for people in those days. For the truth will set us free, and with many denominations of church, with many interpretations of the bible, who has truth? For many false prophets will come in the end times, and they will tell everyone, ” Over here, I am he! I am the one who knows the real truth, I speak on behalf of the Lord and Savoiur Jesus Christ, they will say, follow me, listen to what I say, model your life after me, and my truth.! When the real truth comes, I believe Judah Smith and Generation X church will be laid bare for all that they are, and all that they were. But anyone at the time of the arrival of real truth, will have the opportunity to see the real truth shining before the world, for all the world will be told of the (one true truth) Led by the one truth church. But this church, is yet to come, soon, and very soon it is coming to us, I believe.
When the two witnesses arrive, they will be speaking nothing but truth, modelilng nothing but Christ, they are going to be indestructable for 3 and a half years, and are going to kill anyone who attempts to hurt them. So until I see two men of God, defying the armies of the entire world. I will continue to seek the truth, ever carefully, ever testingly, seeking to find, the real truth.
March 18th, 2007 at 9:48 am
“modelilng nothing but Christ, they are going to be indestructable for 3 and a half years, and are going to kill anyone who attempts to hurt them”
Bible + World of Warcraft = Ozni’s End Times Church
March 18th, 2007 at 8:52 pm
Reply for Locutus
“modeling nothing but Christ, they are going to be indestructable for 3 and a half years, and are going to kill anyone who attempts to hurt them”.
I have never played world of warcraft. What i said about the end times church came straight from the bible. Revelations chapter 11.
Revelations 11:3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will be clothed in sackcloth and will prophesy during those 1,260 days.
Revelations 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of all the earth. if anyone tries to harm them, fire flashes from there mouths of the prophets and consumes their enemies. This is how anyone who tries to harm them must die.
March 19th, 2007 at 5:16 am
Ozni, I appreciate your candor and scrutinization of Judah Smith. You’re not the first to point out that he’s a sellout.
I did find your observation about Christ’s apparent lack of concern over money for himself rather interesting, and it reminded me of several places in the Gospels where Jesus could have used his power to simply bring wealth to himself, but instead he chose another route. The feeding of 5000 comes to mind, as well as the miracle of the coin in the fish’s mouth to pay his taxes (as opposed to taking a collection).
However, I’d recommend you put down the book of Revelations for awhile, and read something like 1 John instead. Forcing literal interpretations upon apocalyptic literature is a crap shoot at best. After all you said,
I’m sure you hope that you’re one of the few who have the “true” interpretation, but don’t think you think it a bit hasty to assume that? I’d recommend less time spent on end times doom and gloom and focus more on finding the truth for people who are brainwashed by people like Judah.
March 19th, 2007 at 6:00 am
I never said i hope I have the true interpretation of the bible, I said I want to attain it. I dont say I have the truth, but I certainly am piecing together information, and Gods word, and I have to declare truth at some point for many parts of the bible, that is how i build my foundation for a worldview, and faith. The part I used in Revelations, is clear, it speaks of real leaders coming to a world desperatley in need of them. Real leaders coming to a world that has not repented, and doesnt really know why they should. The two witnesses are going to have a ministry based on repentence. It says they will be cloathed in sackcloth, which is a metaphor for repentence, They will be clothed in repentence. I dont know when the world is going to end, but I do know this world today needs to repent. People need to repent, Not with, Judah Smith’s, “Repeat after me” robot prayers, But people need to repent based on truth, based on reality, based on the truth behind every lie, based on Christ, based on his righteousness and his salvation. I really think were going to learn to cry out loud when we see the real church leaders arise. Here is a great question for us to ask ourselves, What is a true leader of the church? Is there a true leader walking today? Or is the only true leaders, the ones being displayed in Gods word? God will help us, to discover what the truth is, so that we can understand people like Judah Smith, so we can see the truth about the false leaders of this day, and stop the brainwashing. Surely the truth is here to be found, a truth that can be trusted with confidence. But while I wait for these wonderful leaders, risen by God himself, to come. I will seek the truth, test the truth, fight for the truth, and constantly re-examine, and perfect, my persception, of what is truth.
March 19th, 2007 at 6:06 am
I love your passion Ozni. But I don’t understand a word you’re saying.
March 19th, 2007 at 6:42 pm
Well tell me what parts you dont understand, my posts might not make sense for everyone. But i believe that if it makes sense to me, it can makes sense to you. All we need to do is communicate what doesnt make sense, so i can communicate to you, how it does. The last thing I want is to become a speaker of truth, that makes no sense to people. But Jesus Christ had the same problem when he spoke to people, which is why Jesus said, to he who has an ear, let him hear. What I wrote makes perfect sense to me, all you need to do, is tell me what you dont understand, and I will attempt to re-phrase for you.
March 20th, 2007 at 5:19 am
Nevermind.
March 20th, 2007 at 5:59 am
I’m surprised at the ignorance of you bloggers … don’t you know that the 2 witnesses will be armed with the JesusBlaster 5000?
Ozzie, there is a school of thought that the 2 witnesses are not men and that passage is not literal/physical, rather, the passage is metaphoric, and the 2 witnesses are the Holy Spirit and the Word. They’ve been testifying to the sin of men for 2000 years my friend, and the fire of truth from the mouths of anyone who speaks of the Spirit and the Word does in fact expose that which is not the truth, those who are not ‘under the blood of Christ’ …
I have been on the receiving end of a fiery blast of truth from the Spirit, and I have delivered a few … such does ‘incinerate’ falsehood …
Sam
March 20th, 2007 at 12:40 pm
I never said the witnesses would be armed with The Jesus Blaster 5000, and you never stated why I am ignorant, you just called me ignorant, and then you tagged it with a joke. I am not laughing, and you havent accomplished anything with your opening statement.
In reply to your interpretation of the two witnesses, I have never researched your interpretation of the two witnesses. And you didnt give me any information on your interpretation. And you never gave me any reason as to why my interpretation wrong. If you could direct me to a website, that is based on explaining your interpretation of the two witnesses, so I can see it in detail. Or post here in detail why you think the two witnesses are what you think they are. Then we can start moving forward.
Let me ask you this question, How can the two witnesses of the end times, be the holy spirit and the word? If it says the two witnesses will have a 3 and a half year ministry, they will be killed by the beast that arises out of the bottomless pit. Then the two witnesses will lay dead on the ground before the eyes of the world, who will be so happy they are dead that they will send gifts to one another, nobody will be allowed to bury the witnesses. And after 3 and a half days, the spirit of God enters there bodies, and a voice from heaven shouts, “Come up here!”. Then the two witnesses rise to heaven in a cloud, as all there enemies watched. Also, during the time of the two witnesses ministry, they have the power to stop rain as long as they like, and cast plagues on the earth.
I need more details of your interpretation of the two witnesses.
thanks
Ozni
March 20th, 2007 at 12:55 pm
Say what??? !!! Onzi???? Take the marbles out of your mouth.
March 20th, 2007 at 1:02 pm
Take the marbles out of my mouth? I dont understand you
March 20th, 2007 at 3:38 pm
Finally, something we can all understand and agree on.
March 20th, 2007 at 7:33 pm
Ozni (and Harriet?)
I my message, I addressed you (para. 2) and “you bloggers” (para. 1) separately. Unless of course you want to include yourself among ignorant bloggers?
One of the questions every interpreter of Revelation has to answer is whether the writings are literal or spiritual / metaphorical / allegorical.
I lean towards the more spiritual / metaphorical interpretation, since Jesus said in John 6:63 “My words ARE SPIRIT” and since it was Jesus who dictated the Revelation to John - unless of course Jesus decided to throw poor old John a change-up and start talking literally.
From what you have written above, it seems clear that you are a literalist. God bless you for that. Perhaps you can tell me whether or not the beast will have green scales?
Thank you,
Sam
March 21st, 2007 at 12:10 am
I dont want to be included among those you have deemed ignorant bloggers. But let me tell you, if I am living in ignorance, and you were to pull me out of it, I would be greatful, that God brought you into my life. In regards to your interpretation of the two witnesses, I went out and retrieved information from the internet. Which I will post at the bottom of this post
(Sams Quote)
“One of the questions every interpreter of Revelation has to answer is whether the writings are literal or spiritual/ metaphorical/ Allegorical.”
You tell me that you lean towards the spiritual/metaphorical interpretation. But I tell you, I am reading Revelations Chapter 11 for what it says directly, and I do believe God will raise up two witnesses, who will do all the things that Revelations 11 says they will do. Jesus Christ said his words are spirit, but I dont think that Jesus Christ was speaking directly of the two witnesses, or revelations.
(Sams Quote)
“From what you have written above, it seems clear that you are a literalist. God bless you for that.
God bless me for that? I dont understand you, you seemed to be implying so far that I am wrong, and you are right. Now your saying God bless me?
It may have seemed to you that I am a literalist, but I will tell you what I am. I am a child of God, seeking, and asking for the truth in this life. I found this blog that is trying to figure out if Judah Smith is a (true leader) of the church of Jesus Christ. So i thought it would be a great idea to mention, the bible says that in the end times, the two witnesses will arise. When they get here it is going to be an awesome time for the church, i believe. I have posted a link here, that is all about your intepretation of Revelations 11. I read about your interpretation, and I still agree with mine, I believe that what John said, in revelations about the two witnesses, is what it is, yet when the two witnesses actually come, there will be so much more about them, that was not written down in Revelations.
(Sams quote)
“Perhaps you can tell me whether or not the beast have green scales?”
I dont know whether the beast has green scales or not, but all I know is the Beast arises out of the bottomless pit, and kills the two witnesses. Why do you ask me a question, you know that I cant answer?
With so many interpretations of Revelations, we all have our own opinion. Time will tell who is right, for Revelation speaks of prophecy, things that are to come.
(Sam’s current Interpretation)
http://chrisjesusboy.wordpress.com/2007/02/14/life-death-of-the-two-witnesses/
(Ozni’s current Interpretation)
http://www.tribulation.com/prt_two.htm
March 21st, 2007 at 6:10 am
I think that about says it all. Thanks for playing.
As for whether the following page represents my current view, as you have assumed:
I took a brief look at the page, and read the following for the 2 witnesses scripture:
That blog post is moronic. Prophecy, according to Revelation 19:10, is the testimony of Jesus Christ, who lives through people who have given their life to Him. 1 Peter 3:15 addresses very specifically how we testify (prophesy) about Christ Jesus. First, people see the hope we have in us, their curiosity is piqued, they ask us why we have such hope and then we tell them what it is (Jesus!) that makes us hopeful. That son, is prophesy. Time (years) and grace will teach you that Jesus is NOT the “Hell Nazi” evangelicals make Him out to be. In fact, if you pay close attention, you’ll see that the IC has been teaching “universal reconciliation” for centuries. If you don’t believe me, just watch how quickly all that “hell” preaching turns to “he made it to heaven” preaching at someones funeral. I’ve seen the church bury old cusses whom they SWORE was hell bound, and who never repented, with a Christian funeral and extolling the mans godly virtues, though he had none and never did receive baptism nor recite the sinners prayer. IF the IC had any real conviction about their hell preaching and beliefs, don’t you think you’d hear more funeral homilies about people going to hell? Nope, they all make it to heaven, according to the officiating pastor.
Anyway, me thinks the author of that blog has been reading TOO much of Tim LaHaye and the Left Behind series. What most churchians have left behind is their brain.
I haven’t worked out Revelation (51 years and still trying), however the years and the Spirit have drastically changed my view of the ‘rapture’ … you’re welcome to read my thoughts on Witnessing and the Rapture. Both are fairly short articles. I post them just because you seem to be concerned with where I’m coming from concerning the end times.
Sam
March 26th, 2007 at 10:10 am
go for it. you will not make it
April 21st, 2007 at 12:54 am
You people all need 2 back off Judah he is a gr8 man and he is the reason i live for christ if he didnt preach the word of GOD like he dose i wouldent be here so BACK OFF
April 21st, 2007 at 8:05 am
Oh man.. yet another troll finds the blog
DEFINITIION: Blog = A short form for weblog, a frequent and chronological publication of comments and thoughts on the web. They usually include philosophical reflections, opinions on the Internet and social or political issues.
April 21st, 2007 at 7:52 pm
Jesus is My Hero and dont care if you call me a troll all i know is Judah Smiths the way he preached to me over a CD revaled truths 2 me and saved my life i prayed 2 God 2 save me from my herion addiction and he did Judah smith is a Gr8 man of God and if you want to Bag the crap out of supporting Him Do So email me with all your complaints about because i simply dont care because all the things you say to me will simply just be given to God my Savior so yeah??
April 22nd, 2007 at 1:35 pm
“Jesus is My Hero and dont care if you call me a troll all i know is Judah Smiths the way he preached to me over a CD revaled truths 2 me and saved my life i prayed 2 God 2 save me from my herion addiction and he did Judah smith is a Gr8 man of God and if you want to Bag the crap out of supporting Him Do So email me with all your complaints about because i simply dont care because all the things you say to me will simply just be given to God my Savior so yeah??”
You sure your’e not doing heroin anymore right? LOL! No I’m kidding. Jesus saves you always remember that hun. Judah might have directed you in the right direction but God helped you get clean and saved.
April 22nd, 2007 at 4:43 pm
LOL!!
Ummm…. why are you here?
April 22nd, 2007 at 5:59 pm
Judah is a serveant of God now if anyone has any problems debate
but what he says is true we need 2 cut the crap and give the devil the middle finger but this fourm is giveing the devil room 2 move please if you love jesus support all his serveants
April 22nd, 2007 at 6:20 pm
LOL!!
Ummm… WHY are you HERE?
April 22nd, 2007 at 6:44 pm
haha
Now… WHY are you here?!?!?!
April 22nd, 2007 at 6:49 pm
anom i am here because i am sick of beeing quite and having 2 bite my tounge about this issue so if you have a problem with me supporting some one who modernising christianty making easy to understand for our generation well good luck to you but my main reason for beeing here is 2 defend Judah because if you actualy new him you would no he is a gr8 person
April 22nd, 2007 at 7:27 pm
Hey, I have a question for you. What does Judah think about the illiteracy problem in america today?
April 22nd, 2007 at 7:30 pm
HAHAHAHAH very funny i am aware i cant spell and the funny thing is i am not from the United States of Amirica
April 22nd, 2007 at 7:33 pm
With an ethnic name like “Joe” it’s hard to imagine anyone mistaking you for an Amerian.
April 22nd, 2007 at 7:37 pm
Oh, I see. Then are you a resident alien here? Or just illegal? Or are you even in the USA at all?
And if not, why do you care what happens here?
April 22nd, 2007 at 7:38 pm
i really dont care what u call me man but just leave Judah alone he has had enough abuse God bless man
April 22nd, 2007 at 7:40 pm
Oh, I see. Then are you a resident alien here? Or just illegal? Or are you even in the USA at all?
And if not, why do you care what happens here?
April 22nd, 2007 at 7:45 pm
i am not equating that poor black people are poor i am just saying that he has done alot of good things on Gods behalf
and no i am not in the united states i am counsler from Australia and i am sick of seeing the hurt around the world have seen shocking things and if every one was just brought to christ and stoped arguing on stupid fourms like these well then it would make the world such a better place
April 22nd, 2007 at 7:56 pm
I see.
So, from 8,000 miles away, you feel more qualified to comment on this situation than the people here who have been, or had been, members of that church for decades?
Is that correct?
April 22nd, 2007 at 8:04 pm
all i am saying is you have 2 stop singleing people out that are trying 2 make a diffrence in the world i dont see you going all around the world preaching the word of God do i Now preaching the truth
April 22nd, 2007 at 8:24 pm
Didn’t you say you were from Australia?
I thought they spoke English there, was I incorrect in that assumption?
Oh yes, one more thing.
I AM trying to make a difference in the world by posting the truth on this blog.
Why are you attempting to silence me, since I am speaking the truth?
What are you afraid of?
April 22nd, 2007 at 8:32 pm
“HAHAHAHAH very funny i am aware i cant spell and the funny thing is i am not from the United States of Amirica”
I felt a little bad until you said Australia. Don’t Australians speak English? Yes, sometimes better than Americans!
“i am not equating that poor black people are poor ”
Nobody said anything about being black in the past 30 comments?!? Oh, and read that sentence again……no seriously Joe read it lol.
April 22nd, 2007 at 8:32 pm
Yes you were incorect to say we speak english here because people here speak what ever langue there ethnic group speak and if they want to learn english they can i am not silenceing the truth you just have a warped peception of the truth
April 22nd, 2007 at 8:35 pm
“Didn’t you say you were from Australia?
I thought they spoke English there, was I incorrect in that assumption?”
Maybe he was part of an Aboriginal tribe and somehow came here?? No, no no I reaching lol, too much tv. I’m sorry.
April 22nd, 2007 at 8:37 pm
Joe!!, you need to improve your comments, that way, other’s will take you seriously. As far as JS having taken enough so called abuse, I wouldn’t call what is on this blog “abuse”. However, I would call exploiting the name of Jesus for monetary gain (yes, he is not the only one guilty of this) abuse. Abuse of Jesus and ALOT of people. Also, I highly doubt that the world be a better place if people stopped arguing in forums. lol Why won’t he be real?
JS loves the stage.
April 22nd, 2007 at 8:40 pm
Jennifer its fine i am Part Aborignal and dont belive in wealth is for christianty but i do belive that JS is Genuine he dosent Just love the stage and no he is not exploting the name Jesus Christ for montary gain he gets nothing out of that he gets a wage like every one else that works in a church
April 22nd, 2007 at 8:45 pm
Had to make a few changes to that… lol
Anyway, this blog speaks the truth. You should be thanking God for your rescue. What are you doing spending so much time on something that doesn’t serve your interests??
April 22nd, 2007 at 8:50 pm
i do thank God all the time i know that he saved me. But unlike alot of youth pastors that have said to have been there for me i only found one that would send me emails and ring me 2 check up on me if i was still keeping my track straight and yes you guessed it was JS so of course i hate when i see people saying that he is fake because he is not he really cares about people and has the decentsy to follow up and see if there walk with jesus is still on the correct path and help if we have fallen of the rails
April 22nd, 2007 at 8:56 pm
ok this will be my last blog comment thingy Judah smith is a Gr8 man of God he gets a salary like all church staff and yes that comes out of the tithe but thats not evil because the tithe also goes to wards other things like sending your youth off to confrences better facilltys and stuff for the chucrch
April 22nd, 2007 at 9:01 pm
“you just have a warped peception of the truth”
LOL wow wow wow. Joe, do me a favor? Go read the entire bible from beginning to end praying the whole time and then get back to me in 3 years. How do we have a warped perception of the truth??
The people posting here have actually had contact with this guy ranging from meeting him a few times to some of us knowing him for years. I got sucked into the bullcrap machine because I was young and naive and didn’t know certain things. Now I know more biblically and am more mature in general.
We are here because we don’t want people to live in a lie especially when it comes to spiritually matters. I would rather have the people stay home, pray and read the word with one person (Where two or more are gathered) and not go to church than to sit under a false prophet and his minions!!
Do you know how many people have been damaged by the nonsense coming out of CBC, Penscola, and Toronto churches/revivals? THOUSANDS. I’m seriously surprised that Toronto doesn’t have a blog omg that church is 10 times worse than CBC. I say that mostly because of the false revival that went on in these churches and more because of ALL THE CHURCHES THAT TRIED TO COPY IT. Toronto even went as far as saying, “Bring the Toronto blessing back with you.” This is what my church tried to do and you know what happened? The youth group got 10 times worse! People started to leave! Hypocrites became even bigg hypocrites!! Children were pulled out of the main school because they saw this nonsense right away for what it was, nonsense. I’m 23 now and alot of young people that I went through this stuff with at me at 15, 16, 17, and 18 years with won’t even step back into a church because they are so hurt, confused, and angry and these were kids that really were trusting in God but we had terrible leadership pretending to be Godly leadership, alot of unscriptual nonsense, and the worst thing people not living in reality. Toronto is not reality. Once the high wears off you have to go back into the real world. I thought it was just me and my church but I met a girl at a Toronto conference who is now one of my closest friends. Two years after we met I spoke to her brother who I met at the conference too. He told me his youth group didn’t go up there anymore BECAUSE OF THE SAME PROBLEM!! Reality vs. church conference high. I’m not against conferences but you have to keep it real, unhyped, practical, oh and BIBLICALLY BASED AND SPIRITUALLY SOUND!!!
I blame the leadership COMPLETELY because they took us up there and they knew what we were walking into (some had been up there before that’s how they knew to copy the revival and bring it home) and they just assumed it was of God they didn’t PRAY first and they knew they had very young, influential, naive (in things of Christ), and open kids ranging from 12 to 21 going up there into this craziness and when I say craziness I mean craziness!
Joe my point is: You can only trust fully 100 percent in Jesus!NOBODY ELSE!! Everyone else MUST be questioned and held up to the light ESPECIALLY church leadership because the devil tends to attack them more. Why? Because everyone else in human and imperfect! Only Jesus was perfect.
P.S Urmm that was a really good post I just made, canI be poster of the week? LOL! No no, :goes into Russian accent: I kid, I kid.
April 22nd, 2007 at 9:44 pm
Right, well, all you have to do is look at what they have and that is your tithe money right there. Or, the cd that you bought recently. It’s not there are homeless in the area or anything.
Jennifer should definitely be “poster of the week”.
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:35 am
Jennifer, I was ready to give you poster of the week at this point:
but when you finish with:
You bump yourself up to being poster of the month. Congratulations.
April 23rd, 2007 at 7:48 am
Well, let me know when you can speak English, and, more importantly, when you can understand it.
And the truth.
April 23rd, 2007 at 7:51 am
I totally and completely disagree.
Judah Smith is selling Heaven for cash, and the more cash you give to Judah, the more he says God loves you.
He is a charletan of the worst kind, an Elmer Gantry for the 21st Century.
April 23rd, 2007 at 7:53 am
Just curious. Did he call collect, or did you have to dial a 1-900 number?
April 23rd, 2007 at 7:55 am
So, that is going to be your last blog comment?
THANK GOD!
April 23rd, 2007 at 10:17 am
I don’t have a problem with his English. I have friends with worse English. I do have a problem with him being a sheep. He is totally trusting in Judah and he is in for a huge let down. I am even more scared for him because he is a recovering addict and a new Christian. He needs to put down the cd’s, the books, and the phone and go read his bible and pray because the letdown with his history before becoming a Christian might affect him even more when Judah Smith and Company let you down and they will because they are humans.
April 23rd, 2007 at 10:19 am
“You bump yourself up to being poster of the month. Congratulations.”
YES! Do I get a gift? Maybe a free gift card?! lol
April 24th, 2007 at 7:35 pm
Jennifter and to the powers that be on this blog –the Toronto Blessing thing
needs a thread all of its own! I still don’t understand what all happened here at our church when that hit. We were told the church’s that didn’t participate would have some kind of a judgement on them or like thing.
I’m now attending one of those so called wise churchs and from what I can see
their fruit there is dripping off of the trees –unbelieveable heart for the poor
single moms ect. this week they are working w/ the city to start a meth house
and after school programs for parents who have no money for care.
And to think I listened to that form of a curse on them! ha!
Please give more info and for the record what went on at CBC during that time from those who were there?
April 24th, 2007 at 7:39 pm
Whoa –a house for people who need to get “off of meth” –a huge problem
they are willing to confront and do something about. You would have to
be outside the bubble to get that there is a pandemic going on there.
April 25th, 2007 at 1:48 pm
This message is directed to the founder and creator of this website. All this website is doing is causing more harm than good. You are spending all of your time and energy BLASTING AND CRITIZING a Christian Leader who is trying to do some good in the world. Perhaps you may do ministry differently or have opposing views on certain doctrinal issues. Jesus said it best, “If they are not against me, then they are for me.” In other words, Pastor Judah and The City Church are doing more good than harm for the Kingdom of God, GIVE THEM A BREAK BUDDY! Furthermore, don’t forget that one day you will have to give an account before God for every hurtful and false accusation you have made against The City Church Pastors-BE CAREFUL! Also, My question to you is: How many people have you led to Christ and discipled?
April 25th, 2007 at 1:59 pm
LOL!!!
Another lemming goes for the kill.
April 25th, 2007 at 2:06 pm
Tell me my friend, have you ever studied the Bible at the collegiate level, and if so, Where? Because I don’t think your style and mission is very Biblical or effective.
April 25th, 2007 at 2:09 pm
“Dear Lemming,
The cliff is over there, run along now.
Sincerely,
A smarter person than you are”
April 25th, 2007 at 2:11 pm
Working backward, lets start with:
Led to Christ…zero…remember that it is God who does all the leading. Discipled…I guess that depends on what you mean by discipled. I think I’ll go with 14.
I cannot wait for the day I get to hear God say “Johnpaul, my good and faithful servant”.
No they are not.
I’ve never heard that before and couldn’t find it by doing a quick Bible search. Would you mind giving me Chapter and Verse?
Yes, it is a shame that I have to waste my time doing that when I could be out helping others. But, until they change their misguided ways…
That would actuallly be Catalyst. The Founder & Creator.
April 25th, 2007 at 2:12 pm
Answer my questions, don’t resort to namecalling, only ignorant people do that. Let’s have an intelligent convo…
April 25th, 2007 at 2:14 pm
i bet you have a picture of yourself blownup and framed over ur fireplace. oh wait. u probably live in a cardboard box, cuz real Christians arent allowed to have descent houses.
April 25th, 2007 at 2:31 pm
Who are you talking to?
April 25th, 2007 at 2:36 pm
Bloggers,
You can write the Crusader directly at jfsparkle13@hotmail.com
I think the 13 is J. F. Sparkles age. Or IQ. Not sure yet. Time will tell.
Sam
April 25th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
I know I’m not intelligent enough to “convo” with Crusader, so I’ll just say these points and be gone. Isn’t there a verse in the NT where Jesus warns the apostles of people who were doing works in His name but were not “with Him?” I surely don’t recall a “if they’re not against me, they’re for me” verse though.
Crusader, I understand your position and the thoughts you noted above. I once felt the same way you do, and I’ll grant you that the tone, humor, etc. on this site make the root discussions even harder to digest to those that bristle at its topics overall.
But I will honor you with accepting your stance and view on us, if you will honor me with accepting that many of the thousands (yes, check the stats above) of people here have come from where you are to a place of theological disharmony with the things “leaders” like Judah, Frank, etc. promote.
You and I can agree on one thing though for sure, my friend. That a day will come when we will look upon the glory of God, and then…finally…we’ll know how close or far away from the mark we ALL really were.
God bless.
April 25th, 2007 at 3:07 pm
Yeah, I would, but trying to have a conversation with a zealot is ultimately frustrating, because they always engage in “Truth Owning” as a perfect defense against logic.
So I decided immediately to chuck this lemming into the trashcan for intellectually bankrupt lemmings.
I hope Cowboy keeps him company in there.
April 25th, 2007 at 3:47 pm
Have you asked Jonah this question?
April 25th, 2007 at 3:52 pm
Points.
April 25th, 2007 at 4:38 pm
“He who is not with me is against me and he who does not gather with me scatters.” Matthew 12:30
are those Bibles that your getting your ideas from? c’mon now… it’s not hard too find.
April 25th, 2007 at 4:40 pm
It’s another “Schneidt-Head”.
April 25th, 2007 at 4:47 pm
“
oh aren’t you clever. the more you write, the more i am persuaded of your superior knowledge. i hope to be just like you someday. oh wait- i don’t wanna sit around on my butt all day making fun of other people because they have success and influence and no one even knows my name. now that is a life to strive for! how sad. later, craig!!!:)
April 25th, 2007 at 4:57 pm
So then, shall we now discuss how JUDAH SMITH collaborated with his father WENDELL SMITH to deny food to starving children in the Grays Harbor area because WENDELL was upset with CLF FIRING Doug Cotton?
Or should we speculate on which toasty part of HELL is reserved for so-called PASTORS who deny food to children because those pastor’s FEELINGS were hurt?
April 25th, 2007 at 5:27 pm
I blame the leadership COMPLETELY because they took us up there and they knew what we were walking into (some had been up there before that’s how they knew to copy the revival and bring it home) and they just assumed it was of God they didn’t PRAY first and they knew they had very young, influential, naive (in things of Christ), and open kids ranging from 12 to 21 going up there into this craziness and when I say craziness I mean craziness!
April 25th, 2007 at 5:27 pm
wow, your website has felt so threatened that it has hacked into my loggin name to post under my name. real mature. and since when are we to judge who goes to heaven or hell? ur on thin ice, sir and i suggest u get your heart right before you may find urself in that toasty place yourself. say hi to hitler for me.
April 25th, 2007 at 7:20 pm
Rae it’s dramatic but true. And now they didn’t kidnap us but we were THOUSANDS of miles away from home, in another country, with NO contact home except through the leaders, and under false pretenses. Don’t demean and belittle my experience because you didn’t go through it. There’s no drama to be cut, I have actually holding back with everything that happened! I forgive them but just because I forgive it doesn’t mean I can’t warn other Christians and lead them to the word and God. That’s the least I can do.
April 26th, 2007 at 12:49 pm
Hey— how’s about not block quoting entire posts.. perhaps just make reference to them and let the reader go back and read it … or just quote a small portion..
It is EXTREMELY redundant and BORING and waste of space to scroll down through all the REPEAT postings!!
April 26th, 2007 at 12:51 pm
“say hi to hitler for me.”
I sort of figured you were his friend.
April 26th, 2007 at 1:05 pm
“It is EXTREMELY redundant and BORING and waste of space to scroll down through all the REPEAT postings!!”
Sorry.
April 27th, 2007 at 9:36 am
But I like redundant and boring….. it’s what I live for.
April 29th, 2007 at 12:48 pm
“then we pay this kid’s salary as a Youth Pastor so he can spend money while away in Australia or his wife can spend it at Nordstrom?”
Aww man I wanna go to Australia! Did really get to go? I never seem to be able to find the time to go. Have enough money now but no time Plus, I love to fly but I can’t be on a plane that long even with the connections long plane rides make me nutty. I mean I already am nutty lol but you get my drift.
May 2nd, 2007 at 9:50 am
Okay, maybe I don’t get it, but how is “If they are not against me, then they are for me” the same as “He who is not with me is against me and he who does not gather with me scatters”?
The first says that as long as I don’t overtly disavow Jesus, then I will be with him and by extension gain salvation. So, belief in Jesus being the Son of God is not important, as long as I am not against the idea of that perhaps being true? The quote from Matthew, however, states that we either accept that he is the Son of God or else we are against him.
Perhaps this is just nitpicking, but the logical inferences in those two statements are not mutually inclusive of one another. As such, Judah’s persona and materialism could very well be an indication that he is not fully with God in his ministry. I am sure that Judah has done much good in his ministry, but the I-man has done a lot of good with his Cattle Ranch for Kids with Cancer and that didn’t save his job from his irresponsible, racial slur. How much more should the leader of CBC be worried about leading God’s children astray?
May 2nd, 2007 at 10:03 am
I believe every person has both good and evil in them.
I would be willing to venture that even Mother Teresa and Billy Graham upset someone at some time in their lives, with the possibility of that offended person turning from God as a result.
A key for me is to remember that no person is as God, none are perfect, and none deserve the worship and adulation that God deserves.
Despite what their “Apostles” think…
May 2nd, 2007 at 10:14 am
Pete…thank you…I almost followed up on this point a while back. The illogical take on the “if they are not against me, yada yada” thought never sat well with me. I just didn’t have the energy or time to follow up on it last week.
Crusader makes a false interpretation of Matthew 12:30 by saying if we are not against God than we are with Him. If JS is “for God” he will preach truth in humility and grace. He will be a vessel for the Holy Spirit to draw people to the Father, not to an enslavement of institutionalized theological fallacy, judgementalism, self-promotion, Biblically incorrect living, etc.
May 2nd, 2007 at 5:27 pm
And how.
May 2nd, 2007 at 5:44 pm
Some things are self evident.
And that particular phrase is revealing.
May 2nd, 2007 at 8:04 pm
I believe that we now have irrefutable proof of the type of person this is.
May 2nd, 2007 at 8:35 pm
It’s always so entertaining when they self-destruct.
May 2nd, 2007 at 8:45 pm
LOL!
And continues………
May 3rd, 2007 at 5:55 am
Please ignore the troll.
May 5th, 2007 at 9:17 am
I’m from the east coast, but over the summer of ‘06 I spent some time visiting GC and hanging out with pastor Judah a little bit and let me tell you…
Judah is one of the most giving, genuine people I know. And I can honestly say that he doesn’t put on a show or pretend to be a someone he’s not. He is so sincere and his passion is for God, and to see the youth of America come to know Jesus Christ for themselves. And honestly, I hate that article, and he probably does too, because it spends so much time focusing on what Judah is doing instead of what God is doing. Judah, and the staff of GC seek God and are constantly praying for young people, and God has really done amazing things in that ministry. And so what if the man lives in a nice house? God has really blessed him and he gives most of what he makes to people who need it anyways. Look, we can sit here all day and you can talk about how awful Judah is or whatever, but at the end of the day… what are you doing to try to stop a generation from going down the tube? Pregnancy rate, suicide rate, homosexuality, crime rates, depression, a feeling of worthlessness–that’s all increasing, and while people like Judah and the staff of GC are trying to save a generation from self-destruction and let them know that there is a God who loves them…you are just sitting there…
May 5th, 2007 at 12:40 pm
Well, what do you say about Judah accepting his father’s decision to deny access to his warehouse of food to the hungry people of Grays Harbor?
In case you didn’t hear about that, Wendell Smith decided that City Church would no longer allow Christian Life Fellowship access to the food ministry that City Church runs, because Wendell Smith was upset with Christian Life Fellowship for removing Doug Cotton from the Senior Pastor position.
Wendell Smith retaliated against the poor and hungry people of Grays Harbor because Wendell Smith was angry with the Elders of Christian Life Fellowship.
What does Judah say about his father denying food to the hungry?
And what does the Bible say about people not giving food to the hungry?
May 5th, 2007 at 9:43 pm
” the staff of GC are trying to save a generation from self-destruction and let them know that there is a God who loves them…you are just sitting there… ”
Wow Kyle. I didn’t know you followed all of us around 24/7 watching our every moves. You’re the man lol.
May 5th, 2007 at 10:55 pm
In what way?
May 5th, 2007 at 11:18 pm
If he did that, he couldn’t afford the mortgage on that $400k house! He also talks in his sermons about his expensive watch collection. Sorry, but your argument about how he is so “giving” doesn’t hold water.
May 5th, 2007 at 11:38 pm
“If he did that, he couldn’t afford the mortgage on that $400k house! He
also talks in his sermons about his expensive watch collection. Sorry,
but your argument about how he is so “giving” doesn’t hold water.”
Oh come on you know better then that. They don’t any taxs they can do both lol. They are pulling in enough cheese to anyways lol. Also, I know I am going to get slapped by some here for this but…………..400K is not THAT much for a house? :runs for cover:
May 6th, 2007 at 5:57 am
Chicken feed … mere chicken feed, Jennifer.
Still plenty of comfortable houses available for under $100K in the midwest - that is IF you don’t mind stifling heat, 3-4 months of snow and cold, humidity, bugs, unemployment, elmer fudd’s disease, etc.
May 6th, 2007 at 11:48 am
Actually, most of the watches he has were given to him as gifts, and the house he is living in was totally a God thing… you might want to get the whole story before you bash someone…that would be the Godly thing to do…
May 6th, 2007 at 12:02 pm
Oh yeah, Jennifer! I was at the Thursday staff meeting at Judah’s house, and I went to the staff prayer meeting at the church on Wednesday! You guys rock!
May 6th, 2007 at 1:53 pm
I was being sarcastic……………….Kyle please leave lol. No I’m kidding.
“Actually, most of the watches he has were given to him as gifts, and the house he is living in was totally a God thing…”
How so? Kyle we have to rely on scripture. Please learn this NOW and not , 4, 5, 20 years from now. You will save yourself alot of human heartbreak! LOOK UP SCRIPTURE ON DISCERNMENT!! Matter of fact I will be back with some. It’s very important Kyle. The Lord is soon to come and he doesn’t want you to be fooled and there are strong diversions out there. Not saying Judah is one of the diversions but we must test what he preaches against the scriptures.
Kyle how old are you? Just asking because I’m young myself I just want to get a feel. You remind me of myself and my youth group 7 years ago. I just want you to be strong in the Lord…….not in a man or a church. You will get hurt. Judah is only human and evidentually slip up. I speak this way out of love.
May 6th, 2007 at 3:32 pm
Finally that comment is made. But, just wait. He will move up. And it’s true, this whole thing about him giving away most of what he makes is a joke. Any of these people giving anything at all is a joke. And anyway, his sermons are ridiculous. As are PF’s.
May 6th, 2007 at 7:39 pm
“Finally that comment is made. But, just wait. He will move up. And it’s true, this whole thing about him giving away most of what he makes is a joke. Any of these people giving anything at all is a joke. And anyway, his sermons are ridiculous. As are PF’s.”
Oh you mean like Pastor Creflo Another Dollar? (His middle initial is A o my friend renamed him this lol.) Apperantly the 1.5 million dollar house wasnt good enough.
May 6th, 2007 at 8:07 pm
I see the bigger picture as one of humility or lack thereof….
Gratefulness or lack thereof…..
Why is it necessary to boast about (reveal) the value of your home….
Why is it necessary to boast about (reveal) your extensive expensive watch collection……
May 7th, 2007 at 5:52 am
Maybe not near NYC, or a few other urban areas. For the Pacific NW, that is certainly not on the low end, even if not extravagant. My point was, that for someone with a high school education, and whose income is derived entirely from the generosity of others, he seems to do extremely well. I have a college education and a very good paying job, but I can’t afford a $400k house. I would have to double my income to make that happen.
If you’re going to defend him, why do it half-assed? Please tell us how God gave him this wonderful house. Or who gave him the watches. If you’re going to make us looks like chumps, don’t wimp out on us.
Excellent point, LL. They boast about their $ucce$$ to validate their message, which is not the Gospel.
Kyle, let’s have a Bible Study! I’m just going to point out a few verses about boasting and you tell me whether or not Judah is out of line for the making the comments that he did.
May 7th, 2007 at 9:59 am
Kyle, you did not address this:
Well, what do you say about Judah accepting his father’s decision to deny access to his warehouse of food to the hungry people of Grays Harbor?
In case you didn’t hear about that, Wendell Smith decided that City Church would no longer allow Christian Life Fellowship access to the food ministry that City Church runs, because Wendell Smith was upset with Christian Life Fellowship for removing Doug Cotton from the Senior Pastor position.
Wendell Smith retaliated against the poor and hungry people of Grays Harbor because Wendell Smith was angry with the Elders of Christian Life Fellowship.
What does Judah say about his father denying food to the hungry?
And what does the Bible say about people not giving food to the hungry?
“For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in”
May 7th, 2007 at 8:51 pm
That is hilarious! Yeah, I heard that “Creflo Another Dollar” is constantly praying for God’s blessing, financially of course!!, and waiting for God to answer. So, your right, nothing he has is good enough and never will be. That’s why it’s called greed. What if God decides to test them and take away everything? Then what?
It is funny that most of the people that visit the site and comment in defense of JS, never address any of the issues.
May 7th, 2007 at 10:40 pm
“Oh you mean like Pastor Creflo Another Dollar?”
And the friend that said this isn’t saved or close to it but he can see through the nonsense. How come it is at many times the unsaved are more clear minded and able of discernment then those who are saved?? Its sad. We Christians are soo ready to defend anyone who comes in the name of Christ out o fear of the Lord striking us down but not all of these people are even true Christians.
May 7th, 2007 at 11:49 pm
Oh, if only you guys know how famous you were up in Seattle too.
One Sunday when I went there a couple months ago he said that he didn’t care what some stupid blog said about him, he already read his Bible too many times to be convinced otherwise than what he knows about God. It took all the self-control I had to not laugh out loud then and there.
May 8th, 2007 at 5:15 am
It been a few years since I heard it, but I understand the locals call him “Cashflow Creflo” …
May 8th, 2007 at 10:38 am
Sam said:
Still plenty of comfortable houses available for under $100K in the midwest - that is IF you don’t mind stifling heat, 3-4 months of snow and cold, humidity, bugs, unemployment, elmer fudd’s disease, etc.
It is AMAZING — you can buy a nice house for less than 100k in the midwest that would cost at least 200k or probably more in the NW. I recently went to Ohio and went to the homes of several people who explained that they had bought their house for about 70k…these were 3 story homes with great features (wood floors, period/old entryways & moldings, large porches, attractive appearance overall). 70k in Portland would get you a one room shack with an outhouse connected if you are lucky. And probably not in a very good neighborhood.
Anyway, 400k is not a lot compared to 1 million…but you can get a very comfortable and very nice home for 400k in the NW.
May 8th, 2007 at 12:45 pm
So shall we all post the values of our homes? Then we could rate our importance in the caste system. But then there are factors of equity in the home as if you have it mortgaged to the chimney… are you really worth that much?
We could list the watches we own, # of pairs of shoes and handbags, vehicles…
OHHHHHHHH and how many car-garages our home has … :-}
May 8th, 2007 at 1:09 pm
I have 12 guitars. I need more.
May 8th, 2007 at 1:11 pm
I would like to state, for the record, that I don’t care how expensive Judah’s home is. Judah is entitled to make a living just as much as the rest of us, and in my opinion, $400k for a house isn’t that excessive.
He travels around and speaks at a lot of conferences which make lots of money and I’m sure they compensate him rather well for his time. As long as they can keep finding people to support them, than they can spend their money on whatever they want.
I don’t see the problem as being the house or the watches or any of that stuff. After all, even if Judah suddenly moved his family into a 1 bedroom apartment it wouldn’t change the fact that his sermons focus more on himself (and his sex life) than on the Word of God.
The problem is his lack of true Gospel teaching, which ends up making his sermons more harmfull than good. It is painful to watch America’s Youth believe they are being fed truth, when in fact all they are getting is worthless hype.
May 8th, 2007 at 2:14 pm
I do see it as being a problem when that is all he talks about including on his myspace page. Checked that out a while back and he says nothing of his love/passion for the Lord. Just his time piece affinity and that he has disciples. That’s nice that he doesn’t care about what a blog says about him, but does he care about what kind of example he is setting? It’s obvious what takes first place in his life. It is sad.
May 8th, 2007 at 4:17 pm
For what it’s worth that $400k home was purchased five years ago. Down here in California a lot of homes have doubled in price since 2002, so what’s it worth now? Second, how does a youth pastor with two small kids make enough money to have a watch collection. Since when do youth pastors get that type of money, must be quite the steward with his money.
“…he gives most of what he makes to people who need it anyways.”
THAT IS TOTAL BULLSHIT
May 8th, 2007 at 4:38 pm
“…he gives most of what he makes to people who need it anyways.”
Well, he sure as heck isn’t giving it to the hungry people in Grays Harbor.
And neither is WENDELL SMITH.
May 8th, 2007 at 4:57 pm
To be fair, he has little/nothing to do with that MySpace page - it’s a tribute page put up by a Judah groupie … even so, that’s a gay picture of him …
May 8th, 2007 at 5:13 pm
Umm a Judah “Apostle” according to the page.
May 8th, 2007 at 7:35 pm
So, you agree that’s a gay picture?
May 8th, 2007 at 9:50 pm
LOL!
Maybe JS wrote that, maybe he didn’t. Either way, we know what is important to him.
May 8th, 2007 at 9:52 pm
Both of those pics are gay pics. The weird facial expressions make it worse.
May 8th, 2007 at 9:57 pm
He use to be cuter than that lol.
May 9th, 2007 at 7:21 am
There’s more Judah fun at his Virb site (I have no idea what that is, by the way).
May 9th, 2007 at 7:23 am
I wish this thread had been titled:
Judah Smith and His MOJO Miracle
It kinda sounds like the Christian version of Austin Powers - the Spy who Shagged me
May 9th, 2007 at 9:40 am
I think it’s interesting that the threads which have the longest life are all the ones that are about Judah. I wonder what we are to infer from that. I bet he just has the highest percentage of cyber-savvy individuals under his “spiritual cover” than any of the other pastors who get singled out.
May 9th, 2007 at 10:01 am
I suspect you’re right. That and his supporters are passionate and young. They will comment believing that it will actually change our minds.
May 9th, 2007 at 11:19 am
You cannot argue against FACT.
May 9th, 2007 at 11:39 am
Or children who haven’t learned not to walk into the lions den … when I was a kid, I couldn’t be told nothin’ - my kids when they were teenagers couldn’t be told nothin’ - and like Solomon said ‘there ain’t nothin’ new under the sun’ …
May 9th, 2007 at 11:55 am
Young people are the easiest to control and manipulate.
They have not yet learned to be skeptical of extragavent claims from people who speak in grandiose terms, but who never have a concrete plan to attain that which they speak of.
May 9th, 2007 at 2:41 pm
Sam,
My boyfriend owns about 16+ guitars and he has to practice some serious self control not to buy more.
May 9th, 2007 at 2:53 pm
You just HAD to tell me that, didn’t you?!?
You know, I think you’re boyfriend and me should make a MySpace page together and we’ll talk about all our guitars - you know - like Judah talks about his watch collection.
I have quite a collection of picks, too. 
May 9th, 2007 at 3:02 pm
Sam,
Here is my boyfriends music page:
http://www.myspace.com/benjamindewey
He also has a picture of himself with his favorite guitar of all time on his normal page:
http://www.myspace.com/spiderbridge
If you send him an email he will be more than happy to talk about them! His favorite subjects are guitars, playing guitar, comics, Kelly Joe Phelps and me. He does get a lot of messages but just mention that you know me (sort of
) and then you will have brought up two of his favorite topics!
May 9th, 2007 at 3:43 pm
The boy’s on a whole ‘nother level, JT. Really enjoyed his tunes.
I imagine there’s a stack of Stefan Grossman mags laying around his apartment, eh?
Sam
May 11th, 2007 at 7:59 am
“Young people are the easiest to control and manipulate.”
Ad thats why JS gets the most scrutinity/attention. His whole personality/speech/mannerisms are geared towards manipulating these kids for his zombie crew. Eventhe way he dresses is soo mapped out. I saw a pic of him the other day with some white pants on and I busted out laughing wow………..a little too tight. Other things too.
May 11th, 2007 at 9:03 am
Judah Smith has carefully crafted a public persona geared towards impressing young people.
He is portrayed as being very “Cool” and very successful, and he promises his followers that they too can be “Cool” and successful.
What Judah Smith never mentions is that if his daddy didn’t run the company Judah works for, Judah would be asking:
‘’You want fries with that?”
May 11th, 2007 at 10:06 am
Sam,
I asked my boyfriend about Stefan Grossman and while he knows who he is (told me about him in extensive detail actually), he hasn’t studied his music.
Seriously, send him a message — you guys will have no end of sharing your favorite guitarists and songwriters.
May 11th, 2007 at 3:05 pm
True, true!!!! Family business, that’s it.
And, you have to feel sorry for his wife. In amost every picture that I have seen of him, the arrogance is overwhelming.
May 11th, 2007 at 3:12 pm
It’s nepotism in it’s purest form.
Hire everyone in your family and pay them enormous salaries.
May 12th, 2007 at 6:47 am
“And, you have to feel sorry for his wife. ”
I feel bad for her and then I don’t I feel bad for her because no matter what she will always have to play the happy satisfied wife. I however don’t feel bad for her because she knew what she was gettig into…….I don’t think she knew it would be this bad. How would you feel if your husband was a complete character?!
If he wants to talk about sex to the younger crowd use some sense about it and do it in a controlled setting in some sort of class not in the pulpit.
Plus, anyone that talks about it THAT much isn’t really doing it that much.
May 12th, 2007 at 8:33 am
She knew he was a snake when she picked him up and held her to her bosum.
In my opinion, any spouse who talks about their sex life is violating the privacy of the other spouse, which is a very dishonorable thing to do.
May 12th, 2007 at 2:52 pm
His wife should start talking about her non existent sex life and how there is never any hot water.
May 12th, 2007 at 2:57 pm
Guys like Judah who talk about how much they are getting are usually not getting anywhere near that much.
And even if he is, his wife should be horrified that he is violating her privacy in this way.
May 12th, 2007 at 3:04 pm
Definitely, he is showing her no respect. I think it’s great for him to speak about purity, but you don’t have to get THAT personal. It’s one thing to mention that you waited, but it’s a different story when you start talking about the details of your so called animalistic sex life. I don’t think that JS will ever take to heart what is written on this blog or anything that is said to him. I KNOW that I am having more fun.
May 12th, 2007 at 3:06 pm
Also, I wasn’t aware of this. That is a bold lie to tell.
May 21st, 2007 at 1:16 am
Do you listen to his sermons weekly?
May 21st, 2007 at 6:28 am
No. I’ve only listened to 3 or 4 but so far they are all the same. If you know of any good solid Biblical sermons by Judah that I should listened to let me know. I’ll check them out.
May 22nd, 2007 at 1:43 am
This is seriously the best thing that can be done with your time. Sure, i don’t know you, but stop whining about other people and actually DO something, this place is pathetic, and you’re wasteing your lives bitching like 14yo. Wake up to yourselves and wake up to God. This is a fantastic man of God who is preaching the gospel of Christ in a way that is new and thousands of kids are coming to know Christ through this. GET USED TO CHANGE. Stop acting like the Pharisees and judging blindly. I’m glad you’re all such wonderful examples of Christ.
May 22nd, 2007 at 5:46 am
No he’s not. He’s the son of a man who allows people to go hungry because of a personal grudge, and Judah, if he WERE a man of God, would confront his father for starving the hungry people in Grays Harbor in order for Wendell Smith to fulfill a petty, personal vendetta.
That is not the actions of a man of God, it is the actions of a COWARD.
June 2nd, 2007 at 1:11 pm
Reformed Pope, go on to Generationchurch.org and click on “audio archive” at the top. Then under Special Events, click on Generation Conference March 2007. “View Archive” Then Download the sermon by Judah entitled “Mistaken Love”. Listen to it and tell me what you think
June 4th, 2007 at 3:58 pm
Ok, but I am much more interested in Chelsea’s sermon “How is your love life.”
July 3rd, 2007 at 10:03 am
I just read through this who topic and a couple of others. I am not a blogger. To be honest its new to me. I guess I would be called a “troll”???
I found it interesting that a blog site that was started against cbc-(well I dont know if against is the right word?) anyways, I noticed the top three most commented subjects are all on the city church or judah smith. I can tell some of the bloggers are just having fun with it but there are a few of you that are obviously upset, hurt, devestated etc. My only comment is do not let a root of bitterness take hold of you. Bitterness will just ruin your life.
Love God and Love people. Thats what we are called to do. If we can do that…I think we can get more done in our world. Peace.
July 16th, 2007 at 7:14 am
totally agree w/ “wow”.
U guys gotta be careful. Im a fan of Judah, but i see that you guys do have some merit….i would just be careful not become pharisees. just cause u dont have a 400k house doesnt mean thats Judahs fault. Its just sad to see all you guys that have never met the guy once. judge his entire life on 2 or 3 messages you heard him preach….idk…thats almost funny 2 me.
July 16th, 2007 at 8:10 am
What’s funny to me is the inability of anyone from GC to spell or use punctuation.
PS. JB: If you had actually read anything around here you would have seen that many people here do/did know Judah/Doug personally, and “own” houses worth more 400k. Thanks for keeping the topic alive though!
July 16th, 2007 at 10:11 pm
JB,
WTFWJD is quite correct in his assertion about the commentators here at City Business. I knew Judah personally. Oh, and his house was worth $800,000 when he purchased it (although it is not under his name for some reason).
I think the reason why people from GC cannot spell anything correctly is because GC does not really attract the educated types. Judah is far from being an educated man, and I don’t think I know one person in leadership in GC who could accurately and consistently exegete Scripture. Just say “historical critical method” to a GCer and they will give you a blank stare - say “Christological hermeneutics” or “demythologization” and they might even turn white.
So JB - my advice to you is to buy yourself a book on Biblical exegesis (not from the City Church bookstore please, but a real book) and memorize all of the exegetical fallacies. Next time you hear Judah speak you will be surprised at how many fallacies he incorporates in just a 40 minute period - it will be worth your money. Bonus! Check Church history to see if his message is even close to anything held or taught by a major Church father, leader, or theologian. Read Augustine, Irenaeus, Aquinas, Calvin, Luther, Owen, Barth, Brunner, Hauerwas… anyone!
Good luck, and may the Rhema Word of Faith force be with you
July 17th, 2007 at 9:20 pm
Actually, most of us have met Judah or know Judah, and some of us have known him since he was young. And it isn’t about the house. If that’s what you think then you have no idea why we blog. I know Christians who live in million dollar homes that I have no problem with. It’s the fact that he’s up on the pulpit preaching to young people and exalting Judah Smith, not Jesus Christ. I don’t care how much your house is worth, what kind of car you drive, really non of it means anything - but bragging about it to a bunch of high school age kids under the pretense of Christianity is disgusting.
Thanks for your post though. I mean, if you had read through all of these responses you’d see all of the Judah-lovers harking on the same two points that you’ve brought up, and us pointing out that we don’t really give a **** if he has a $2 million dollar mansion or he lives in a shack, and we all know Judah.
July 18th, 2007 at 2:31 am
Actually, I do take exception (besides the unbiblical teachings) with a pastor (or YOUTH pastor) living in a lavish home. I believe there is a certain accountability when it comes to a non-profit organization such as a church. The bible specifically warns that those who teach will face double scrutiny, and therefore in my opinion should seek to live their lives circumspectly rather than flaunting their wealth (and expensive taste in clothes).
Not that I’m saying pastors should live in poverty, but I would say take the approximate median income of the congregation (not that there’s any way to accurately track this unless you ASK for their income level) and live within those parameters.
Living in opulence is a slap in the face to the people who give 10% (and more) sacrificially to the church week after week. The pastorate is supposed to be a CALLING to be obeyed, not a “get rich” business opportunity to go after (or in the case of all these pastors who “pass on” the pastorate to their kids….a “family business”).
July 18th, 2007 at 4:25 am
Very well stated. I agree 110%.
joebib
July 18th, 2007 at 8:18 am
FormerACCmember said:
“Not that I’m saying pastors should live in poverty, but I would say take the approximate median income of the congregation (not that there’s any way to accurately track this unless you ASK for their income level) and live within those parameters.”
That is a good idea, but I’m pretty sure that there are some people who attend The City Church who have a lot of money–enough people with enough money to throw the median off balance. So the pastors there might end up back in the same bracket they are in now.
July 18th, 2007 at 10:49 pm
Is this why Paul said if what you are eating or drinking may offend someone
than don’t do -causing them to stubble and ‘messing up their walk.’
Aside from all the obvious integrity issues of not being accountable to those
you are supposedly serving –how exactly is this situation any different?
The mere fact that this blog has to go over and over this topic with people who are obviously offended and made to stumble around in the dark asking why is a sign right there.
So Dear Judah lovers and those from this group–take it to your leader. Your
lifestyle and skimpy accountability to the people is making some stumble. Look right here for the proof.
Which brings us to another topic from their church if they think we’re off base:
what exactly is that townhouse in Washingtion DC for again –we only got the
sketchiest of information. Please give us your brochure or papers concerning this —you are claiming to be a 503C after all –isn’t that correct? Or do you pay taxes on all you take in? Come on and answer–
before you make me stumble again!
July 19th, 2007 at 12:54 am
$410,000 thousand on the Eastside will not get you much at all..
Thats the going price for an average house, back in ‘02 $410k might have been a little more than average, nothing too out of the ordinary or extremely super fancy, just a regular house in a regular neighborhood, probably close to his church, to make it convenient. $410k for the Eastside is NOT AT ALL anything special. Bill Gates lives on the Eastside, not the same side of the east side that Smith does, because Gates’s house is surrounded by Multi-million dollar houses. But that should still give you an idea that $410 isnt really much to get all excited about. The broke reporter just got jelous. If youre from seattle im sure you know that a house for $410 is pretty standard.
I’m a real estate appraiser, I know this for a fact.
July 19th, 2007 at 9:53 am
I love facts… my favorite myth
Actually I think we have already established the fact that Judah’s house is closer to one million dollars, which makes it probably the nicest house that any youth pastor in Seattle lives in. Since material wealth is the chief point of their ministry then I guess Judah’s house is simply a continuity.
Shalom
July 19th, 2007 at 10:15 am
I respect the FACT that it must take a lot of WORK for these CCers to continually MISS the point.
July 19th, 2007 at 12:33 pm
his house is nowhere near a million……..
July 19th, 2007 at 1:48 pm
It must take a lot of WORK for these CCers to continually MISS the point.
July 19th, 2007 at 3:49 pm
Maybe the point is ….. PRIDE GOETH BEFORE A FALL.
I have always been taught, way back from childhood from my parents even, that people brag about their possessions and abilities (or hoped for abilities or made up abilities) because they are tremendously insecure.
Am I saying/insinuating that Judah and many in his circle of “prestige” are insecure……
The new lurkers/posters who are defending his insecurity and immaturity and indiscretion…. he is an upstart (trying to use a nicer word) trying to be in the big leagues, and succeeding in some areas it appears. Are us old timers jealous?? Hardly… Disgusted?? Probably. Disgusted that the cycle of exploiting young believers, new believers, any believers, unsaved, you name it… has not stopped and that Judah is perpetuating the cycle. And has no humility to keep his private life and his sexual life and his finances private and anything else he flaunts from the platform.
He is a symbol, a face-to-face symbol, of what is out there all over the Kingdom - world - whatever, who is exploiting the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Yes, many others are wearing the same shoes he is and doing the same sort of thing, but we do not have first hand knowledge of them as we do with people we have known over the years and such.
July 19th, 2007 at 8:23 pm
Um…. serj….
Yes his house is near one million. I believe it somewhere around $800,000. I looked it up myself with my real estate agent friend. Oh, and it is not under his name. You might be thinking of his OTHER house that he rents out.
Sorry, wrong again
July 19th, 2007 at 8:54 pm
I wasn’t aware of the one that isn’t in his name………how do you know about it? And what name IS it in?
July 20th, 2007 at 3:42 am
(living life said: “I have always been taught, way back from childhood from my parents even, that people brag about their possessions and abilities [or hoped for abilities or made up abilities] because they are tremendously insecure.”)
I agree with you wholeheartedly, LL.
This can be evidenced by simply turning on the TV to any of the religious channels; what passes for “preaching” today by most senior pastors/conference speakers, etc., is nothing more than polished “talking points,” marketing-wise tactics taken from secular public-speaking seminars/manuals, which are then slickly re-packaged for Christian audiences.
Oh yes, with a couple of Scriptural verses thrown in here and there just to give it the semblance of being biblical, and to remind the listeners that they are indeed in church.
Speakers today seem to prefer telling jokes rather than expositing the Word of God.
They re-label sinners as “seekers,” and sin as “goofs” or “shortcomings” or “needs.”
People aren’t commanded to repent, it is instead suggested they “take a look inward.”
They say God may not be too “happy” with “seekers” (that is, sinners), rather than use the word the Bible does: “wrath” (see Psalm 7:11, 21:8-9, Rom. 1:18, 2:5; Rev. 6:16-17, etc.).
And good luck trying to find a reference to “sin,” “iniquity,” “hell” or “eternal punishment” in their speeches, but rather an abundance of positive words like “love” “forgiveness,” and “acceptance,” all of which are excellent words in themselves, but which are defined beyond/apart from the biblical context.
They enjoy the telling of countless personal stories, all the while bringing more and more attention to themselves, their wives, kids, and families, rather than focusing attention on God, and relating stories from the Bible.
We find out unnecessary information about their private lives, among other things, their eating, sleeping, bathing and sexual habits. Just what I came to church to hear about.
They try their best not to offend any potential seekers/tithers, instead presenting a sanitized, watered down “gospel.”
Which is the opposite of what Jesus and the Apostles did (Mark 10:17-25; Acts 8:20, 13:1-11, etc.).
Their bestselling books have very little discussion of the Scriptures or theology, but are rather feeling-oriented manuals on finding one’s best life/purpose, and achieving the American Dream.
They seek to have super-sized, mega-churches which are filled with people living lives so similar to the world, that it is difficult to tell the difference between the two.
Worship/song leaders also seem to thrive on the power and attention directed at them. Also, observe the similarity in music, beat, etc., which sounds no different than a secular concert.
In checking out their respective doctrinal statements, these churches apparently believe everything in general, but nothing in particular.
A far cry, in my view, from the example of biblical preaching/teaching described in the New Testament, especially as seen in the Gospels (Matthew 5-7, Matthew 13, etc.) and Acts (Acts 2:14-30, 7:1-56, 13:16-41, etc.).
OK, rant over.
joebib
July 20th, 2007 at 8:48 am
I couldn’t say it better.
Oh, Serj. The name that the house is under is still a mystery to me. It could possibly be owned by the church or Judah’s father in law, because it is not under his name, Chelsea’s name, or one of his parent’s names. I know about all this because I spent 6 years of my life in Judah’s ministry and I was on staff at the City Church - I know all the dirt - which isn’t always a good thing.
His rental house in Redmond is under his name - it’s a nice little place and probably close to 400k due to location. His house that he has been in for almost 2 years now is in Bellevue on 140th.
Hope that helps
CTP
July 20th, 2007 at 9:07 am
must be a nice house if its on 140th, good for him.
July 20th, 2007 at 3:44 pm
I guess we’ll see if it is ultimately is good for him.
July 20th, 2007 at 4:11 pm
why wouldnt it be?
July 20th, 2007 at 5:11 pm
craig smith would be the FIL, marilyn the MIL
July 20th, 2007 at 5:53 pm
Didn’t our Lord say something about receiving your reward on earth?
If you sit in their messages, you will see how they preach to give to them and God will reward you. Seems like many have polished off the cool-aid and these kings…um, I mean preachers live the good life while everyone else stuggles just to get along. Not very biblical if you ask me.
You can see my other posts for the scriptures that prophesied about this (false) gospel. Something about making merchandise of you and using covetousness to decieve the masses…anyway, it’s all there in the Bible.
July 20th, 2007 at 6:53 pm
The dont say to give to them and God will reward you. Usually they say give to God and God will reward you.
Maybe there are some people who struggle financially, no one is making anyone give, you always have to make up your own mind on whether or not you want to give or how much you want to give. There are also millionaires in that church and i don’t think that they struggle to get along…….and even if you are struggling to get along its not going to be because you gave all of your money to the church, its probably because you are doing something wrong in you own financial life. The preachers don’t make all their money from tithing neither, a bulk of the tithes and givings are used for maintaining the church, the reason the pastors are usually well off is most likely because theyve stumbled upon a few profitable business opportunities, or have sold a few books, and cd’s……..Rick Warren made so much money off of one book, he gave all the money that the church ever paid him back to the church, and still had enough.
I have never heard Wendel Smith, or Judah, or Casey Treat, Or Jesse Duplantis, or anyone other preacher MAKE anyone give anything to the church, you do it at your own will……and if you dont feel like giving, keep it to yourself and dont make a big fuss about it.
July 20th, 2007 at 7:16 pm
Funny, i never heard him promise anything to anyone about being cool if they followed Judah.
And as for his dad being the reason for Judas success….
Is his dad making the youth goto GC on wednesdays?
Is his dad preaching at GC on wednesdays?
I think the answer to both is NO, yes Judah might have had an easier beginning but I wouldnt say that the only reason hes succesfull is because of his dad.
July 20th, 2007 at 7:17 pm
please direct me to the sermon where he promises people that they will be cool if they followed him
July 20th, 2007 at 7:23 pm
And you will be rewarded for being poor???? Its not his fault that his house is worth more than you will make in 16 years, it your fault. No one is stopping you from from being rich, or having an expensive house. God isnt. its you and only you. What isnt fair???? get off your behind and go do something, just because your christian doesnt mean you have to be poor, thats the dumkbest thing ive ever heard!
July 20th, 2007 at 7:32 pm
if you goto generationchurch.org and goto the audio archive, all of judahs sermons are available, and they’re free. books are a different story, they cost money to produce.
July 20th, 2007 at 7:36 pm
Ive been reading this post for two days and Annanymus said everything that needs to be said.
July 20th, 2007 at 10:25 pm
Well Serj, I cannot believe how contradictory your position actually is.
You are criticizing us for being critical! I can’t believe it. That is the most nonsensical argument I have ever heard.
Does Judah TELL young people to be cool and be like him… no of course not! That is not what we are saying - manipulation is much more subtle. Would I have joined GC and followed Judah if I actually knew that I would be manipulated, or if I heard them say “give to us…?” No, that is not how it works. They use their “authority doctrine” to make you bound to the pastor’s words. They say give to God, but where does the money really go? It goes to their aristocratic lifestyle and to their friends in the ministry who really don’t need money. They teach a mandatory tithe AND offering (neither of which can be defended biblically), which makes everyone give out of fear. In the end, it is just pure greed and self-help positive thinking all wrapped up in Christian-ese. It’s just Word of Faith in a new and more deceiving package.
Where will the sinners and the lost go if the Church looks just like them?
Will they see repentance and humility when they visit a church that asks for money all the time - and pastored by businessmen with Mercedes cars and big houses?
Is humanism what they need?
Did Jesus preach health and wealth?
Did Jesus live a wealthy life?
Did Jesus turn Scripture into mantras for confessing over and over again to get material blessing? Pure Land Buddhism and Hare Krishna traditions are closer in relation to City Church and the entire Prosperity/Word of Faith nonsense.
So go on thinking that Judah and his business church are changing people’s lives… go on. This blog site is a witness to the fact that thousands of people feel wronged by what these churches have done. I know so many people that have left City hurt… I know leaders that have left. I was a leader and I left. They just keep going. They are good capitalists. They are focused on profit gain and understand that labor losses are a part of the business.
July 20th, 2007 at 11:08 pm
so if they didnt drive mercedes cars would that make the situation better? you seem more focused on the fact that theyre financially well off than anything else…
What was it that caused you to leave the church?
Just a question, is it wrong to have a mercedes, and a nice house and be a christian at the same time? what are christians supposed to drive or live in then?
July 21st, 2007 at 12:41 am
Well said C.T.P.
Serj, you just don’t get it. Its not about the cars or houses, its about deception and manipulation for the end result of fleecing the flock.
False doctrine caused me to leave the church, since you asked.
Paul told Timothy to watch his doctrine closely because it would save his soul and those who hear him. Why do people who take doctrine seriously leave that church? You do the math.
July 21st, 2007 at 8:54 am
My reasons for leaving are closely related to Craig’s. We both saw the deception and the false teaching. The pastors there are not open to hearing any critical voices speak, even if in love - so that gave us no option, but to move on, although it is hard to stop talking about it because of all of our friends that are still there - still in the matrix.
Serj, I’m afraid that either my arguments are very vague, or perhaps you don’t get me. Driving a Mercedes does not negate Christian faith, but as a minister of the gospel - what kind of image does that portray. What do non-Christians see on TV? They see pastors asking for money and they also see newspaper articles about how all of those pastors are living in mansions from the money that comes in.
The cars and the houses are a stumbling block!!! They are bought with money that should go to the poor or to other ministries. With all the money that goes through the City Church they could be planting churches right and left… they even have an internship program to train church leaders…. but guess what? They have planted only one church and most of those interns were never given an opportunity to use their training. I know of a particular church in Seattle that probably only receives 1/2 of the money that goes through City and yet they have planted so many churches, and now they are the largest church planting church in the U.S. Their pastors don’t have fancy cars or houses, instead they are modest. They don’t buy $500 trash cans (like City does) or $4,000 flower pots (like City does), and yes that is true - I was a custodian at City so I know.
Serj, I challenge you to give me the name of one theologian, church father, or major church figure that lived before the Word of Faith/Prosperity movement began in the 20th century - give me one name, or even a name of a book written by a church theologian or pastor that taught anything close to what City teaches. Or lived like City pastors live. Bring me a prosperity gospel book from the 14th century. Bring my paintings of large houses owned by church leaders (check out the corrupt Roman Catholic Church for this one!) You won’t be able to my friend. Why? Because the Prosperity Gospel and Word of Faith heresies are 20th century, western capitalist constructions and they are antithetical to orthodox Christian belief.
Early Church - suffered from persecution
City Church - lavish lifestyle
Early Church - lost their homes
City Church - get bigger houses
Early Church - met in ordinary houses
City Church - build bigger buildings! buy 23 million dollar campuses!
Early Church - united under the gospel
City Church - proclaim divisive gospel of blessing
Early Church - humility
City Church - arrogance
Good luck Serj… go find my that one name (:
July 21st, 2007 at 11:54 am
Then why only go after the city church? why not go after CFC, and Creflo, Duplantis, and Benny Hinn, and everyone else?
Why shouldnt the pastor have the life he does? what did he not do to deserve it? I dont know what it takes to run a multi-thousand member church, but i dont think its quite that easy.
July 21st, 2007 at 12:38 pm
Isn’t it annoying when someone new finds the blog and staunchly defends their heroes?
July 21st, 2007 at 1:31 pm
you didnt answer my question first of all,
and theyre not my heroes, second.
I just dont see what everyones problem is……thats all
July 21st, 2007 at 1:46 pm
Serj,
It’s not that they don’t deserve their salaries (although there is a good chance that they don’t). But in light of the poverty in our world, how is it that they JUSTIFY such lavish lifestyles?
Why drive a BMW or Lexus when 23 MILLION people are enslaved in our world every year? Why own a $800,000 home when the wives and children of our persecuted brethren don’t know where their next meal is coming from?
I have a hard time justifying MY lifestyle in light of those things. I certainly can’t justify theirs–esp. when they should be our models in these things.
And as for no one “making” us give–not quite true. In some MFI churches pastors preach for 15-30 minutes EVERY week on tithing. In many churches pastors keep meticulous account of who is giving and who is not and emotionally and spiritually penalize those who do not. In some MFI churches you have to tithe to be a member and you have to be a member to serve.
KM
July 21st, 2007 at 4:05 pm
I have a hard time justifying MY lifestyle in light of those things. I certainly can’t justify theirs–esp. when they should be our models in these things.
You people on this site are such self-righteous pricks. Who do you all think you are? Its like you guys think you are Gods gift to the Church. You are doing more harm to the spread of the gospel than Judah ever has. Do I know him. Yes. Have I been to his home? Yes. Do I agree with his teachings and life style? Not particularly. But he is a nice and genuine dude. Oh sorry, me using the word dude probably means I am uneducated and young right? Not worthy to make a constructive comment on this site?
But seriously, if this is a site about false teaching and doctrine, stick to it. Stop with the petty arguments about how much his watches and clothes cost. Get over it. Why waste your time? This website gives me tired head.
July 21st, 2007 at 5:34 pm
They have pills for that.
July 21st, 2007 at 6:35 pm
Well… we will let you post a few times (: By the way, “dude,” I am 22 so I’m not some old grumpy guy poking holes into the City Church fabric. I actually lived the life that I am now criticizing; I know first hand the damage to the gospel that Judah is doing. I don’t particularly like the discussion about watches and clothes either; I prefer the theological conversation that this site offers - so I am with you on that.
Then why, may I ask, are you here? Why are you wasting your time? You are wasting your time because you would like us to change - but that is exactly why we are “wasting our time” - because we want to see change. A website like this is empirical evidence of the problems of City Church, City Bible, and the entire Word of Faith/Prosperity/MFI stream. Even Luther had to resort to unconventional means to get his message across.
July 21st, 2007 at 9:10 pm
How are we harming the spread of the gospel?
July 22nd, 2007 at 3:56 am
shut up u r pathietic, judah smith is one of those most inspirational people on this planet and he preaches truth and life into the lives of thousands of young people across the world, what have u done to help this generation? huh?
July 22nd, 2007 at 10:16 am
Thank you for that. Another typical response from another typical Judah-izer. I hate stereotyping, but you people come on here and say the same exact things and you all fit into this little cliche following. And that question, that loaded, ambiguous question, “what have u done to help this generation?” Then again, this is coming from a culture where self-centered pompousness, catchy phrases, preaching with no substance, and legalistic church hierarchy are all “saving a generation”. Let me ask you a question; what have you done to love your fellow man as yourself? Do you go and help the poor, the homeless, the defenseless, widows, orphans, etc.? Or is Christianity all politics?
Twenty bucks says you don’t jump out and defend Jesus when people make fun of Him with the same zeal that you defend Judah Smith.
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:37 pm
I feel the love of Jesus all over that remark…
Um…. Lena… your interrogative discloses your Capitalist driven faith and Capitalist hermeneutic. In Capitalism, it doesn’t matter how things are done - all that matters is how much is produced. You think that because Judah markets his message really well then he must be marketing a true message - your argument is nonsense. The size of his market audience does not prove the truth of his message. Judah’s message produces a reductionistic and shallow Christianity with hardly any discipleship. They are interested in numbers - like good businessmen. Their church is run by businessmen with business education - not ministry education, and definitely not biblical studies education. Our criticism is against this machine of Judahizing, which turns kids into little Judahs so that they pray like him, dress like him, talk like him, and drive nice cars like him. Judah’s gospel is himself.
I don’t want your “changed generation” - because they are going to be nothing but more Capitalist-consumerist-oriented-shallow-ignorant-arrogant fashion icons. Jesus was none of those (as Eleytheria so rightly put it).
July 22nd, 2007 at 5:15 pm
Lol……you had to mention the cars…..haha
July 22nd, 2007 at 9:21 pm
i’ve just been reading this for the past few weeks…
so much pain and hurt. understandable that many of you wish to tell the world your views on judah smith and his associates because of the way you have been hurt. however is this really proving anything? im just a kid who lives in australia, i dont know much about judah smith’s church or the city church, i know nothing of his bank account, i dont really care. it was said not long ago that if jesus was here he would react the way that he did in the temple with the markets etc. it can be easily flipped, if jesus was here on earth now, would he really be for a site that is focused on the personal slander and criticism of his ministers? no doubt many of you feel that your actions are justified, and sure this comment will be forgotten and wont change much. but my cry to you as a whole is to heal, find healing, its clear that so many of you are hurt, a vital way to receive healing, forgive and let go. try it. going to be hard. no doubt you have a genuine love of God and passion for Jesus, but you’ll be running in circles until you make the effort to forgive those who have hurt you. how can God use you if you’re full of bitterness? let go. forgive. and heal.
bickering within the church. who wants to be a part of that?
July 22nd, 2007 at 11:13 pm
dear ozzydave,
In case you missed this in your reading, let me say this succinctly:
The reason many people write is NOT because they are hurt, bitter, angry, in need of healing, etc.
It is because the message preached from the pulpit is not the gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
If all these “ministers” were actually preaching the Cross and living the life exemplified by the early church, you would find no complaints from the majority of folks here.
So when Jesus sends a message to the leaders of Ephesus and Laodicea, telling them that they have left their first Love, that they are deceived in thinking that they are rich and in need of nothing when in reality they are wretched and blind and poor and naked — well, He must be bitter and needing to forgive.
Oh please.
July 22nd, 2007 at 11:29 pm
i dont know much about this website, and i dont know how many hits a day it gets. Judging by the 917,983 hits since its been online it roughly comes out to be about 2000 hits a day? probably by the same people. What im getting at, is, how is blogging on a minor website helping anything? or solving anything? its all just a bunch of noise that will for the most part go unheard……..basically its the same group of people bickering to each other about something they can do nothing about.
July 23rd, 2007 at 1:32 am
“Didn’t you say you were from Australia?
I thought they spoke English there, was I incorrect in that assumption?
Oh yes, one more thing.
I AM trying to make a difference in the world by posting the truth on this blog.
Why are you attempting to silence me, since I am speaking the truth?
What are you afraid of? ”
how is this blog making a change in anything?
July 23rd, 2007 at 8:16 am
You heard it…
July 23rd, 2007 at 8:27 am
and so what of that?
July 23rd, 2007 at 8:32 am
We aren’t trying to change the world…just a couple of Cities.
Thank you for being a part of that change, Serj.
July 23rd, 2007 at 9:30 am
youre missing my question. how is posting a blog where everyone can come to complain going to change anything?
July 23rd, 2007 at 9:38 am
Serj said:
I haven’t seen you use one scripture, you are only speaking your opinion.
You are quite amusing to read, since I used to be a lot like you.
July 23rd, 2007 at 9:46 am
I love that question. Just like all the other news sources out there, City Business Church is here to spread the truth. Read this blog and you will see plenty of comments showing the “change” we have caused.
Oh, and as you so kindly pointed out earlier, we are closing in on our 1,000,000 hit and that doesn’t include the hits we got on our first blog…so the word is really getting out there.
Again, thank you for joining in.
July 23rd, 2007 at 11:38 am
Can we vote out Serj? “by a vote of 919,055 to 1, you have been voted out of the CBC big brother house”
July 23rd, 2007 at 11:40 am
youre voting me out because i told you that your not going anywhere by blogging on a website?…funny. 1 million hits is alot……but in order for a website to make significant impact you have to get much more that that dont you?
July 23rd, 2007 at 11:43 am
Voting you out because you have nothing to say but garbage. You don’t like the blog. You write crappy posts…. Why are you here?
July 23rd, 2007 at 11:51 am
……keep doing what you do, and if you ever somehow for some reason get anywhere with it, im sure ill find out…..Good Luck to you
July 23rd, 2007 at 12:25 pm
Are you watching this season of Big Brother? This is the first one I’ve seen in awhile and I have to say I’m loving it.
My favorite player is Jen. She is so self-absorbed, it’s mind boggling. I hope they don’t vote her out.
July 23rd, 2007 at 12:52 pm
Jen is so CLUELESS.. or there is a slight chance that is her “game”… I read she won power of veto and so will most likely take herself off the nominating block
After the last couple of seasons this is kind of nice as nobody is nastily vindictive. Dick is blunt and in their face, which is funny but getting old quickly.
July 23rd, 2007 at 1:04 pm
Hey LL, where was the ***spoiler alert warning***?
Actually i have to miss this next episode anyway, so thanks.
July 23rd, 2007 at 5:28 pm
I don’t think last season can be topped personally. I’m not super fond of this cast. It seems that BB is typecasting more and more–just recycling old player with new names.
July 23rd, 2007 at 5:32 pm
Last season??? You mean BB All-Stars? It can only be topped if they bring Janell back.
July 23rd, 2007 at 6:10 pm
Serj, it’s not just Judah and his church. There are other people here that have discussed the SAME stuff going on in other MFI churches and the so-called revival (strong delusion) of the 90’s. The stories are in the THOUSANDS. I didn’t think so until I came here.
July 23rd, 2007 at 6:12 pm
I LOVE JEN! IF SHE GOES IM NOT WATCHING ANYMORE!!
July 23rd, 2007 at 6:15 pm
Even if they are what is this blog doing to help anything? Serioulsy, i dont see the City Church slowing down at all
July 23rd, 2007 at 6:22 pm
Serj it won’t slow down because you have a bunch of brainwashed people out there that don’t read the bible for themselves and than subject their kids to the brainwashing and obey every word out of a man’s mouth………..but it doesn’t mean the people here have to stop telling their stories. I don’t tell people to stop going to church…..just READ THE BIBLE SLOWLY, then pray about what you have read and pray for true understanding and discernment!
July 24th, 2007 at 3:52 am
Take a look at the parable of the wheat and the tares. Matthew 13:25 - 40. Tares and wheat look very similar, but they are different. One can be made into bread, the other is a weed.
This blog is pointing out the tares. It is also a place to come and be heard and to speak what the Lord is telling you. It is a place to listen to Christ in other people. There are tares on the blog too. You have to listen to the Holy Spirit to tell the difference.
January 26th, 2008 at 9:30 pm
The Bible says do not judge.
stop worrying about Judah and how he lives his life.
it has NOTHING to do with you all.
If you don’t like the way he lives his life, or the way he preaches, stop talking bad about him and pray for him.
no good will come over gossiping about Judah.
January 27th, 2008 at 9:03 am
Gossiping? I think “critical thinking” is a better description of what is happening on this blog
January 27th, 2008 at 12:49 pm
H will probably never see this, but here goes anyway:
The Bible says not to usurp God in judging, condemning and carrying out the sentence. The Bible does encourage us to evaluate teaching.
If Judah is teaching my children, it matters.
These are not mutually exclusive. It is possible to evaluate a person’s teaching and pray for him at the same time.
Define “gossip.”
January 28th, 2008 at 8:23 am
I love people who write blogs about other people’s lives and devote their own lives to cynicism. You are all pathetic. You’re a different breed of paparazzi. Each and every one of you has never done anything noteworthy in your lives so you dedicate your lives to critiquing those you envy for their accomplishment. That sucks for you.
January 28th, 2008 at 10:04 am
Says the Pot to the Kettle.
If you do a little research, you’d be surprised to find out what many of the bloggers here have accomplished.
January 28th, 2008 at 6:38 pm
And life is all about doing something noteworthy, right? Life is just some big popularity contest, and the more people who like you, the more people you affect, the more people you “touch,” the more successful your life has been, correct? And you see nothing at all wrong with that being someone’s motivation?
Listen, I know you’re probably right around Judah’s target age, but just because he looks cool and preaches sermons to elicit an emotional reaction out of a crowd of teenagers who are (let’s be honest here) given to over-emotionalism and confusing emotion with spirituality doesn’t make the things he says correct.
P.S. Just because we don’t share your enthusiasm for all things Judah Smith doesn’t mean that we are all cynics, nor does it give you the right to assume so. Can’t you see that calling us “cynics” and “pathetic” and saying that we have never done anything noteworthy makes you guilty of the same exact thing for which you condemn us? Or is it ok because no one here is a “man of God” like our dear friend Judah is?
January 28th, 2008 at 7:32 pm
Just curious, GenUnleashed was last weekend, and I had several of my students from my school attend. Coming back they all said, “Judah Smith was their favorite because he is soooo funny”. I am having a hard time because they all want to go back to GenUnleashed this next weekend for what I see as another “spiritual fix”. Did anyone attend, so you can give an account to any substance that was preached or was it all hype? I teach Bible at the school and want to address the hype vs. real Christian experience but these speakers make it all so difficult. They just go from one ‘hype experiience’ to another.
January 28th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
This reminds me of someone.
January 29th, 2008 at 12:20 am
no life isnt a populatity contest, and not all about doing something noteworthy to impress others….
but it seems like this blog criticizes everyone who has ever become famous. absolutely everyone. Theres not a name i can mention without the person getting criticized for every single thing that they can be criticized.
There are alot of questionable people, but not all of them.
January 29th, 2008 at 9:58 am
My only hope is that you truly love the people you are blogging about. That would mean that you would have already sent the church or the people a letter to address these issues before blogging, then after they did not respond, you addressed it here, but are continually praying for them.
January 30th, 2008 at 8:00 am
Tri,
Regardless of what was preached at Generation Unleashed you should still address the hype vs real issues. You don’t really need to hear what is taught at these conferences to bring it up. My advice would be to start asking your students questions about what they learned…ask then WHY they feel like they have changed and what they are so excited about. And then in the end make sure to have a conversation about how the emotion of the weekend will fade but if they have a strong foundation built it…then THEY WILL TRUELY NEVER BE THE SAME AGAIN.
This conferene does a great job of getting kids excited to serve God…the problem is that they convince these kids that they have really change, but after the “music fades” they go back to their normal life…and then they feel a huge amount of guilt for failing to change the world.
There is a reason so many people leave the church after they graduate high school and I believe it is because todays Youth Pastor would rather take the easy road of hype (which will bring in a lot of people, but ultimately leaves them with nothing), rather than teach sound doctrine.
Or something like that.
January 30th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
Your joking right? I left Bible Temple/City Bible right after high school to pursue real things in life. I was told I was a rebel and made to feel like a true sinner because I didn’t buy into the lie that Portland Bible College is an actual place of higher education. I went to a real University and got a real education instead. Thank God I did, because that opened the door for me to go to law school (to a place that wouldn’t have accepted me with a PBC degree) down in Los Angeles California. During my third year I landed a very competitive internship with a sports agency and worked with dozens of NFL athletes. From that I got a temporary gig with the #1 talent/sports agency in the world. Within the next year I will hopefully be on paid full-time staff working with people that you could only dream to meet. So don’t you dare assume that people on here “have never done anything noteworthy in your lives” as you put it.
I grew up with Mr. Smith and think he is a great guy. He’s doing a lot for the church and making a name for himself. However, God does not call everyone to be rich and has no desire to be served by a bunch of robots that ride emotional waves of Christianity. And that’s exactly what places like CBC and The City Church are producing. Mindless, brainless, self-absorbed God freaks that do nothing in the world but sit in the pew and live a life full of guilt. That my friend is why people on this blog are “critiquing” thos like Judah Smith.
January 30th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
Dear Ex-Slave–I loved your post –I am married to an attorney and will never forget the revelation I got once in a PBC conference that ‘wow they hate education.’
I mean after hearing educated people put down over and over and kids who went to college scolded or put to the back of the bus –I couldn’t stand it any longer.
Your ignorance speaks louder than words.
So where do you think all the lawyers and doctors and pharmacists and architects will come from. I’ve yet to see those degrees falls from the sky.
Interesting how they kept calling my husband on legal questions –for free of course and now that we’re out of the CCult he keeps getting phone call after call for help legallly.
If you believe in prayer than why do you need the help of so many ‘professionals?’
So ex-slave I’m so glad you have got a great job and are actually out there in the world–something you couldn’t have done without the education to back it up. Proud of you! Don’t be surprised when others call you hunting down jobs or legal wisdom in the future.
January 31st, 2008 at 5:00 am
Ex-slave–
I believe when J David made the reference to doing something “noteworthy,” he was likening that “noteworthy” something to Youth Pastor JS’s ministry for the Lord.
Gotta coupla questions for you.
What is your nature of “working” with these folks you speak about? Are you involved in some sort of chaplaincy or ministering the gospel of Jesus’ love with them?
Do you believe that “working” with what you describe as “dream” people, “NFL athletes” etc., qualifies as/equates with doing something “noteworthy” for God?
The reason I ask this is because it appears to me that you tout working with them as somehow being more honorable — or something to be envied, in your opinion — than working with the non-famous, that is, with non-”dream,” and non-”#1-in-the-world”-people.
If this is not the case, please forgive me, but it comes across that way to me.
No offense, just curious here.
-joebib
January 31st, 2008 at 9:02 am
I guarantee that those of us out in the real world, attending real schools, and doing real jobs, will have more exposure and influence than those interns and pastors throwing conferences in their buildings hoping people will come to them.
And Real Lives is absolutely right. If you buck the system and fight the backhanded comments and *pastoral counsel* telling you to stay and slave for them and you go out into the real world instead, they completely write you off. They imply you’re backslidden and unworthy of participating in anything other than warming a seat.
But if you later become successful then they completely change their tune. All of a sudden they can’t get enough of your money, you’re invited to all the lunches and dinners and conferences. And you’re expected to give all your professional services away to them for free, all the time. After all, we’re all a big family right?
January 31st, 2008 at 9:43 am
Joebib - sorry you mistook what I was trying to say. I would never tout anything I am doing as something to be envied. I was simply trying to point out to David that there are plenty of people on here who do a lot of noteworthy things in life and for God that does not involve church ministry. Your questioning of my post is actually a prime example of the entire problem to being with. Church leaders are so prideful to say that someone working outside the church is less worthy of God’s call. Only ignorant, closed-minded, selfish people would think that if one is not working in full-time ministry they are not doing anything noteworthy for God. That is so off base and out of whack. God calls everyone to do different things in life. Some of us He does want in full-time ministry but others of us He wants in the military, in schools, in corporate America, and in Hollywood. NONE of us should judge the other for where God has them in life, and sorry to call you out Joebib but it sounds like you may be one of them?
As far as my work with athletes and actors, yes I have had a great deal of influence in some people’s lives. And in others I am a nobody that they could care less about. But this ain’t Portland or Seattle church life 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Hollywood is a very dark and evil place filled with more sin and lies then most people could even imagine. I am more battle tested everyday then I sometimes know how to deal with. But God is faithful to EVERYONE not just the minister in the pulpit. And in the end who do you think is going to be able to have more influence in the world? A pastor who has been preaching the same message in the same city, to the same people for 40 years, or a professional athlete or established actor who people pay millions too and idolize on a daily basis? Sorry Jobib my votes with the celebrity, cause unless you can tell me that you’ve never paid money to go to a sporting event, set foot in a movie theater, turned on your TV, or picked up a magazine, you know as well as I do the power behind celebrity status. So for that reason I have chosen to be an influencer of them. If that ain’t the work of God please tell me what is?
January 31st, 2008 at 9:53 am
You really think Judah Smith is famous? Wow, we have some serious twisted thinking on our hands. I guarantee no one outside the four walls of The City Church or City Bible have a clue who Judah Smith is. Wake up people!
January 31st, 2008 at 2:06 pm
Ex-city bible slave said:
I can’t resist a loud ‘AMEN’ or better yet a ‘HERE HERE!’
Your comment brings to mind something that one of my friends (who left CCult before we did) said to me the year I left– that I’ll begin to notice that out in the ‘real world’ no one ever hears of Capital Christian Center. But when you are in there you are led to believe that it’s the most important thing going on, and especially more spiritual than the Normal church across town that is growing by leaps and bounds because they ARE normal and reaching the non-churched in a realistic and authentic way.
January 31st, 2008 at 2:14 pm
Real Lives said:
So true! The thing is, if degrees could fall from the sky you can guarantee THAT would be the method CCult leadership would get their education! and the sad thing is if allowed to pursue his own dreams instead of keeping the senior pastor dream alive, the senior pastor’s son may have been happier pursuing an education and maybe teaching at a college somewhere, probably a Bible college since that’s his interest.
Is education dissed because it threatens them on some level?
February 1st, 2008 at 11:37 am
Right on De-Tox, although I have to admit I was one of those people long ago. At age 16 I used to think the BT/CBC was the greatest chruch in the world and that everyone knew who we were. By 19/20 I was every leaders dream. Super involved, highly dedicated, and over committed to the ways of the church. But going to church 24 hours a day, 7 days a week only created in me an egotistical, nieve, and selfish person. I now realize what a truly foolish person I was. I wish I could apologize to all those people I lead astray with false doctrine and judgement. Now I know, the only way to infect the world is to be in it. Thank God I was saved from the church!
February 1st, 2008 at 10:44 pm
Agreed. (Do we know each other Ex-slave?) I remember talking to one of the girls after GenChurch about a conference another church was throwing (I say throwing ’cause they’re like big Christian parties!). She asked if our church was hosting it…. because where else in town would they have a big enough place to hold a conference? Spending her entire life in the school and at the church, she literally thought CBC was the largest church in town.
I also wish there was a way to do this. Or at least apologize for the smoke machines and strobe lights.
February 5th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
I have no idea who anyone is on this thing besides the founders and a couple of my boys who write on here every so often (what up ND?) I was at Bible Temple/CBC back in the mid to late 90s. Became a Christian there in fact. I was heavily inovled for about 5 years and met my wife in TREK (yeah baby, I married a true blue BT princess!) youth group. However, around my senior year when me and her were getting really serious, I was ostrosized by the leadership because she is white and I am primarily black. They weren’t really for the inter-racial thing (dame fools) and came out really hard against us. Had multiple meetings, phone calls to parents, and “pastorial” warnings about what we were getting ourselves into. They told her (and I quote verbatem) that “black men only take white women as trophies.” Can you believe that sh*t. Anyway, going through that expereince on top of questioning what I really wanted to do with my life (they were all trying to force me to go to PBC because I needed some “biblical training if I wanted to serve in ministry”), made be bounce out of there real quick. The best part about it though, is that I took my wife with me (boy were they upset about that - we both lost our best friends over it because the leadership told them to stop talking to us). Anyway, we got married a few years later and served as youth pastors at another church for awhile. then decided to move to Los Angeles so I could pursue my dream of becoming a sports agent. So far so good.
So don’t no if I know you or not, but either way thanks for the support.
February 5th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
Es-slave said:
Wow, that IS really bad! Are they still that much in the dark ages??
I have to say that the Boise MFI church (CCC) has a number of inter racial couples, one of which is their worship leader — or WAS their worship leader — I’m not sure since I’m no longer there. That’s why in our discussions our group concurs (also with what we’ve read) that abuse happens on a scale of let’s say 1-10. the boise church could be a 6 and BT was an 8 but if they’ve changed in this area maybe now a 7.
Well, good thing you are out of there and your lovely wife is with you and you are pursuing a dream that God put in your heart! So cool to know you got out alive!
February 5th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
sheesh… and how many other interracial marriages DO they endorse at CBC/BT….
mexican/american, asian/american,
… even Doug Lasit is not “white”
I always wondered about the double standard, be it in church or in the world…
February 6th, 2008 at 10:48 am
Yeah pretty messed up huh? Believe it or not that is just one of many stories I have about that place. We went through a lot there. You see we were really invovled in the youth leadership aspect and got to see power, greed, and control behind closed doors that the average lay person never witnessed. I harbor no bitterness or anger though, because as I said before I believe it was part of the process that God took me through to make me the person I am today. If I didn’t see the ugly side of things I probably wouldn’t be where I am today. Praise God!
But you are right De-Tox about the level of abuse at BT back in the day. It was ugly! Probably why the founders of this blog were from there, during the same era as me and my wife in fact (she went to school with both of them). We had to put up with so much bs as teenagers, how could this not be the reslut?
And LL to address your point, BT leadership doesn’t indorse interracial marrage unless the non-white person (usually an outsider who became a Christian later in life) conforms to their ways. At least 5 of my non-white friends and family married white BT women and all of us left the church because we would not fit into their WASP ways. You see peole like ol’ Dougie who came from the outside and have brown skin but have crossed over into their world makes them look good. They can plaster his face all over their websites and promotional materials to make it look like they are diverse. They usually stick people like that in the youth department because they can promote their youth leaders as “in touch” with our diverse American youth culture. However, if you get out of line and start to want more then just a youth leader title, they will smack you down and subtly remind you of your place. The result is that person leaving and starting their own church somewhere else. Thus the sick cycle continues on and on and on…..
Only way that place is going to change is when the head leadership does.
February 6th, 2008 at 11:05 am
ex-slave,
A couple questions.
Not to reveal names, but uh, did the leadership ever have any issues with Alisamay and Asimay getting married? Because they’re a mixed couple.
And did the leadership really say, that black men only want white women as trophy wives? Because I’d always heard that rumor, but I never thought that anyone in leadership actually said that.
And third, just as an observation, as a white guy going to Bible Temple at that time, I must say the black guys WERE taking all the hot chicks. It was a little frustrating.
February 6th, 2008 at 12:58 pm
Hey Catalyst, good to hear from you. Saw your brother over the summer for the first time in a long time, sounds like things are going good for you.
To answer your questions:
Not that I personally know of. Ol Dougie boy kinda forced those two (and a whole mess of others) to quit talking to us once we left. We did get the chance to hang out with A&A over the summer for the first time in some 5 years and everything seemed to be OK. However, as I posted Asimay has reformed to their world now and they put him in youth leadership so he is exactly the type of dark skinned person they like to have around. He’s reveling in his success and platform status right now, but I grew up with that guy (we met each other at age 12) and I know his true heart. I give it another few years until he wants to become more then a youth guy…then he will learn the error of their ways and hopefully, maybe find a way out.
YES. Multiple times to her and her family. In fact that whole fiasco was part of the reason they left the church as well. Her parents friends at the time (two daughters/lived on Rocky Butte) took them on a “special” weekend trip to try to convince them to break us up. Big daddy Smith himself even tried to have a heart to heart with me about our relationship (that was a halarious experience).
I knew there were a lot of BT boys who did not like my group but I tried my best to ignore it. If I had a chance to do it all over again I definately would have acted different, but at the time I was young, nieve, and sucked into that world. I didn’t no any better. Be glad you didn’t shack up with any of those chicks anyway. Besides my wife and a couple of others, most ended up going off the deep - lot of pressure to be perfect when you’re a young pretty lady around that place.
All the best.
February 6th, 2008 at 1:38 pm
Those are some good stories.
I never quite understood the thrill of working for City Bible. You’re underpaid, overworked, and outside of their little club, no one cares who you are!
Smith! I totally forgot about him. He tried to keep me from dating his daughter as well. Though he never talked to me personally, he did tell his daughter not to communicate with me. He didnt’ like me because my family wasn’t rich enough for him. It worked out for him, because I went to college in NY and couldn’t make it work. But part of me always wanted to marry her, just to spite him.
On, I never really cared about the cliques at City Bible. I just think there was about a two year period where all the Up-Club guys were dating a lot of the pretty white girls, and I think it got some of the leadership a little bit concerned. But that was primarily because they were all racists. They wanted you there to play basketball and look cool, and that was it.
Trust me. I am.
February 7th, 2008 at 11:16 pm
So let me get this straight. Your casting your “vote” w/ atheletes and movie stars and will influence the world more than a pastor whose been faithful for 40 years, you are not egositcial, nieve, and selfish, and you are free from false doctrine and the church. What type of Jesus are you smokin???
The Jesus I’m smokin changed the world just fine w/ a bunch of nobodies, he casted his “vote” to those who were outkasted and he said he would build his church no matter how messed up it was- ohhh but your better then that. I don’t know you but you sound like a prick!!! Hey, but Jesus loves pricks too and so do I- God bless you!
February 8th, 2008 at 4:27 pm
I think a plagiarism suit is in order.
-joebib
February 11th, 2008 at 9:41 am
Ya, I’d never seen anyone get spammed by worship songs before! but they are gone now so there you go
February 11th, 2008 at 10:16 am
Sorry JOBIB dog I will never sink to your level of immaturity. I am too smart for that! Go on believing that CBC/BT is the greatest church in the world and that everyone outside those four walls are devils sent to persecute God’s chosen, and I will go on living my dreams and serving Him they way He’s called me too.
I will be praying that God will rescue you from yourself.
February 14th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
That was directed at jobib_mobib not joebib…at least I don’t think they are the same person?
February 15th, 2008 at 5:07 am
Thanks for the clarification ex, but I knew who you meant.
To answer your assumption, I don’t think we’re the same person…
-joebib
March 15th, 2008 at 3:23 pm
i don’t get you all. no respect for God’s ppl. Why can’t you all just for once actually LISTEN to the preaching, instead of checking out his outfit, or how one little quote “offends” you so. no wonder God hasn’t touched you. You’re too busy noticing how Pastor Judah looks, that you aren’t letting the Holy Spirit come into your lives. try this. next time you hear or see him preach, listen to what he has to say, the general topic, and what he’s trying to get across. i know what it’s like to be talked of, because i am a youth leader/preacher myself, and you kids think you know everything, and that you don’t need to hear the same sermon twice. just wait, and you’ll see what i mean. you all are lucky that bears haven’t attacked you yet.You all should ask God for forgiveness. Honestly! `_`
March 15th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
Moose thanks for taking the time to stop by…of course now that you are here you really should read before you react. There are plenty of posts that tear apart Judah’s preaching (as well as his outfits). Believe me, I’ve listened to more JS sermons than I care to count. He sure is entertaining and I pray that one day he finds the Real Jesus.
March 16th, 2008 at 3:33 am
Actually, I have had the “privilege” of listening to 4 or 5 Judah’s messages. Here’s the breakdown in content of the ones I’ve heard, without exception. Perhaps others could confirm/debunk what I’ve heard:
60% amusing anecdotes that may or may not have anything to do with the topic at hand
20% name-dropping of other MFI or televangelist mucky-mucks that he’s associated with….usually also used in context of going to some exclusive golf place, retreat center, etc.
10% talking about his youth and the privileges
associated with being a child of Wendell Smith.
10% point. Usually very WEAKLY backed up by one or two key passages…no proper biblical exigesis whatsoever. Does he occasionally have a good point? SURE, but it would take all of 10 minutes to deliver this point as opposed to an hour-long service.
March 16th, 2008 at 8:28 am
Dear Moose,
Thanks for commenting. I can tell by the patent textual agitation that you are quite loyal to Judah, and thus, you are offended by any criticism. I only ask you to question your priorities and make sure that your loyalty to Judah is not greater than your critical thinking faculties.
Most of the “kids” that you referred to in your blog are probably many years older than you and have known Judah a lot longer than you have. I was in his youth ministry for 6 years; how about you?
We are not throwing arbitrary criticisms at the man to make him look bad. We are positing authentic critical insights that challenge charismatic hegemonies everywhere, in order to insure that allegiance to Jesus has not been trumped by allegiance to ignorant folk theology.
Craig
March 16th, 2008 at 8:51 pm
Bears? Do you mean the Chicago Bears, cause otherwise unless we all live in Alaska I don’t see many bears walking around my neighborhood attacking people….
That’s beside the point however. The real issue is why so many people find it necessary to come on here every once in awhile and blast everyone for posting such “despicable” and “deplorable” things. Do you believe you are doing God’s work? Protecting his “chosen” from us bitter and scorned people? Come on man, every person who wants to be in the spotlight better learn how to handle a little criticism. It comes with the territory. If they don’t like it, they should change professions. Judah Smith is a great guy. Very few of the critics about him on this thing (that I have read) do not attack his character or integrity…but more his approach and message. Reformed Pope is right, he’s not preaching the real Jesus, but even sadder is he’s not alone. A large majority of charismatic preachers only preach what they have been taught and raised with themselves, which was wrong theology. So the cycle just continues, year after year. Maybe you and Judah and every other so called leader whose been called out on this thing should evaluate their message. If a few people criticize me I chalk it up to their own issues. If dozens and dozens of people do it, then I have to ask myself if I may be doing something wrong?????
March 17th, 2008 at 5:50 am
Don’t you talk about my Bears like that, Ex-Slave.
I think Bullwinkle’s reference to the bears has to do with a passage concerning Elisha … he was just bopping along, and a group of kids started calling Elisha “baldy baldy skinhead” or somepin’ like that, so Elisha sicked a bear on ‘em and they got mauled.
Concerning youth leaders, they have a really strange sense of their own importance / position in churches … as if their staff position somehow trumps what scripture has to say about treating elders with respect … note Bullwinkle’s assumption that we’re all kids on this blog and his down talking to us - note also the lack of accountability (answering for his ’shot from the hip’) when it is disclosed that y’all know Judah, spent years in his ministry, and many of us are in fact old enough to be Bullwinkle’s parents …
I don’t much care for most “youth leaders” - need to spank most of ‘em, cork ‘em up and put ‘em back on the wine rack and let ‘em age awhile. Let ‘em out only when they have a better understanding of 1 Timothy 5:1-2.
‘Scrupe
March 17th, 2008 at 1:39 pm
You’re sooo bad, ’scrupy-doo-doo…always mocking people’s names.
Trudat.
I remember when I was a young man, and had aspirations for the ministry. The leadership at BT — and seemingly every other LC I knew of — were always trying to hold us young guys back, telling us that we were still too young to be used of the Lord, and that we needed to be seasoned before He could use us in the ministry.
Consequently, I tried all the more to push my way into that elite leadership echelon, and was ever touting the validity/maturity/experience of those of us who were younger. I would refer to all the proof-texts on how God had used youths throughout biblical history — e.g., David in 1 Samuel 16:11-13 and Josiah in 2 Kings 22:1, “your young men shall see visions,” etc. — and was especially fond of quoting 1 Timothy 4:12 from the Greek.
The times I was allowed to be used in ministry, I always wondered at why I wasn’t more effective, why the people didn’t get exited at what I was saying, inasmuch as I felt I was much more bold and interesting than those teachers and preachers who were older…those older ministers to whom people always seemed to unfairly respond.
Why couldn’t they run to the altars when I preached?
I just didn’t get it. Now that I’ve hit 1/2 a century, looking back, I can’t believe how foolish and narrow-minded I was, and I’m actually rather embarrassed at some of the stuff I used to preach and say. Probably 50% of what I believed was unbiblical.
But thank God, He knew that what I needed…not to go to some seminary to get my B.D. — Bachelor of Divinity — but to go to His school until I went through His B.D. — the Backside of the Desert.
After a couple decades worth of provings/trials/dealings, God finally started to get me to where He wanted me — to where I would listen to Him and His Word alone, and not to man’s doctrine, just because my senior pastor had taught me something, or because some famous expositor or scholar had written a book on it.
-joebib
March 17th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
Can’t help myse’f, Joeboob.
That B.D. from SOTS (School Of The Spirit) is da best degree they is.
Strange thing about it though, after going thru SOTS and getting a B.D., ain’t no desire to be in ministry anymore. The sign of graduating seems to be the simple contentment to just BE what God made ya to be where He made ya to be it.
Ya know what I’m sayin’, Joebob?
‘Scrupe
March 17th, 2008 at 5:17 pm
Yeah I feel ya, doh.
I notice that Moses came to pretty much the same conclusion. After he finally got his B.D. — which took him a bit more than the standard 128 hours…I believe it was 40 years in the B.D. (Exodus 3:1, KJV) — the last thing he wanted was to go back to Egypt as God’s man of faith and power (Exodus 4:13, NIV).
Same with Abraham’s 25-odd years of waiting for Isaac to be born, Joseph’s 13 (?) years in prison before being exalted to the throne of Egypt, David’s years as a fugitive before he became king, Jesus’ 30 years preparation for His ministry, Paul’s 14 years in the Arabian desert before his ministry, and so on.
It seems some of these young guys who are trying to save the world for Jesus have discovered a short-cut.
-joebib
March 17th, 2008 at 9:31 pm
Just because someone has a large youth ministry, seeming lots of sway in the “Charismatic” circles, preaches at other church’s
conferenceshypefests, and says cutesy things doesn’t make them correct and it doesn’t make what they say the truth.First of all, most of us have been involved with Judah’s ministry or the ministry of his parents for far longer than you’ve known them. Secondly, you can’t just ignore certain aspects of someone’s character such as how they dress (which, usually, is a great display of someone’s attitude towards others). Sure, I know the argument, look at what John the Baptist or Elijah wore, but that’s totally different. They wore what they wore out of either necessity or trying to distinguish themselves from the world, while Judah and his ilk wear $300 pairs of trendy jeans.
This is a completely baseless and preposterous accusation to fling. This statement is teeming with closed-mindedness. Basically, what you’re implying, without openly stating it, is that you and our dear friend Judah have cornered the market on God’s touch and the work of the Holy Spirit. I know that I don’t understand Christianity or God perfectly or even close to completely, but I know enough to know that Judah misses the mark.
We’ve all heard what he has to say; you should know that by know, this thread is our discussion of Judah’s message. I don’t know exactly what being a youth leader/preacher is supposed to signify, but I’m willing to bet that 100% of the people on here, youth leader/preachers and otherwise, know what it’s like to be talked about. I’m not even going to address the “you kids” comment, that one was another low blow. Someone’s been watching too many Hillary vs. Barack debates.
I guess you could say that everyone is lucky that bears haven’t attacked them yet? We’re also all lucky that we (well, most of us) have not yet been abducted by aliens, chased around a haunted carnival by a murderous clown, etc.
Check your premises, kiddo.
March 18th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
its funny how someone always mentions money/things. why are you concerned so much about how much his jeans cost?….sounds like you’re jealous
March 18th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
We are concerned about how much his jeans cost because he is paying for them with money that is entrusted into his hands by his congregation. They tell people to give their entire paychecks to the “gospel,” and, many do, and then Judah goes shopping.
March 18th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
who cares???
March 18th, 2008 at 8:13 pm
UH -because it hurts people -dear me!
March 18th, 2008 at 9:49 pm
I’ll have you know that I am quite jealous of Judah’s fashion. I’m just too embarrassed to admit that I envy his fashion sense, so it is instead expressed in the form of jealousy.
I don’t want the boys thinking I’m one of those metros; it would ruin my online reputation.
March 19th, 2008 at 10:05 am
they dont ask for the whole paycheck, they ask for 10%, but if someone gives the whole thing, its up to them…
i always thought you were a female…guess i didnt read all of your posts…this is off topic, but you noticing his jeans, and noticing the type, and knowing that they are in the $300 range, doesnt that kinda make you a metro? whats the point of having the boys think youre not if you really are? be yourself, nothing wrong with a guy who has some fashion sense…
March 19th, 2008 at 1:39 pm
You obviously have never been to City Church
March 19th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
been there, never heard anyone ask for whole paychecks
March 19th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
I went there for 6 years, did two years of Generation Interns, was on staff and a leader… so obviously when I say that they asked for entire paychecks… they actually did ask for entire paychecks.
March 19th, 2008 at 10:43 pm
Hello readers,
Just a question, a couple of comments, and another question.
Do any of you remember when Bible Temple (aka City Bible Church) was located on NE Glisan?
I do. I attended Bible Temple. For many years it was a wonderful gathering of energetic, vibrant people, many of whom I will love as long as I live. Then the change happened: the “need” for a larger facility became the focus. I remember the enormous fundraisers, the endless rhetoric, the prayer meetings, the countless “prophecies,” etc., that occured to raise funds for what was to become City Bible Church.
I also remember how everyone was expected to either give their money, free labor, or time to this cause. And what I find utterly abhorrent (more than everything else) were the so-called spiritual prophetic words to the effect (uttered in “Prophetic” states, and implied from the pulpit ) that those who would choose to leave the body (not of Christ, but of the Church, THE CHURCH, AKA CITY BIBLE CHURCH) were cursed of God. Yes…cursed of God.
And being raised in this enclosed, sheltered, enviornment I was still taken aback. Cursed of God? Wait a minute…shouldn’t we really feel this in our bones, maybe even have a PERSONAL visitation from Gabriel at least to confirm this statement; if God is going to cast us into outer darkness if we so much as entertain the thought of attending that nice, quiet Episcopal Church just down the road, don’t we deserve a personal confirmation?
I knew to my very core that what was happening was severly wrong.
Irresponsible, misguided…YES!
Treacherous, manipulative, lies,…not sure.
Now, back to Judah, the subject of the blog…
A kid like Judah…well, he grew up in it. He’s destined to inherit the keys to the kingdom (the kingdom of a well established system that will always have well meaning people fund it). Real life experience of poverty, abandonment, loss, working one’s way alone without assistance?…I doubt he’s experienced these things; that is, life experience that truly builds character and strength; life experience that aids one in empathy with others. If he truly points to Jesus, he’s at least doing one good thing. But I think the janitor can also do the same thing and with a little more humility.
Now…
Here’s my other question.
Not being savvy with Christian culture anymore; is Christian Rock music accepted in the City Bible Church and its affiliates?
Thanks all, keep blogging!
March 20th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
Steve, I DO remember Glisan — while it was still the theater! I liked to sit behind Bro. Wency.
As to the culture question: It appears to me that megachurches have created their own culture — dress, hair, music, language. For example, we saw a guy from CBC in Gateway St. Arbuck’s today. My mom commented on his hair (typical CBC gelled mess). Of course, it’s cool on the hill. No one else has hair like that anymore.
Same with the music. Get a copy of a GC music session or watch a Hillsongs music video. You’ll see what I mean about the music culture. It’s its own thing.
March 21st, 2008 at 3:32 am
anna, you’re bringing back the memories now.
Probably the most moving times I ever experienced in the Lord were in some of those services at that old theatre on Glisan. Seems so long ago…a more innocent time, before the days of institutionalization, fancy buildings, unbiblical sermons, designer threads and glitzy
light showsworship services.Did you know Bro. Wency developed his stutter due to a 10-year vow of silence he took in his younger monk-days? I loved him and that big black cowboy hat, and his gentle spirit…he was a wonderful man. I had him bind or re-bind probably 40 or 50 books over the years when I lived there (I’ve still got ‘em right here in my den now).
He usually had some of Bro. Conner’s notes lying around there in his print shop, hard-binding them for him. I remember I always tried to nonchalantly mosey over to where he would have them piled up, to try to weasel a quick look at them. But Bro. Wency would always catch on, walk over, smile, and then shoo me out of there.
Good one.
I also miss that Gateway area…used to spend a lot of time up there during high school days at the Freddies, also at the Silver Skate, etc.
(Sigh) Gotta try and make it up to PDX this year…
-joe
March 21st, 2008 at 1:02 pm
joe said: Gotta try and make it up to PDX this year…
joe, come on down (up?) and give me a call when you do…
March 21st, 2008 at 4:30 pm
Finally someone who gets it. Judah is a childhood friend of mine. We met sometime in our early teens. Many people don’t get Judah, which is fine. But I think it is time to leave him alone. The more this blog talks about him the more his mindless blind followers unit. Judah is a great guy, a true gentleman. However, he is a product of his enviornment. I mean look at his dad for goodness sake. JS means well, he’s just lost his way and focus on what really matters because he’s never had to go through anything in life. No struggle, no pain, no heartache…just a lot of spoon feed goodness from a silver platter. When God is ready he will send Judah through the fire, happens to everyone. But for now, seriously, lets just all stop ranting about him. It’s very old.
March 22nd, 2008 at 4:14 am
I will, David.
I’m getting an idea here…why don’t I bring my bike up with me? Maybe I’ll stop by the nearest LBS (local bike shop) and pick out a nice two-wheeler for you, too.
We can go out for a nice spin and talk about the blog.
Inasmuch as cycling — along with golf — is the only sport where men can dress in girly colors and get away with it, we’ll rent you a matching “kit” — uniform — to go with your bike. I mean, you might as well jump right into this thing. I’m thinking you’d look smashing in turquoise and…say…pink? “Nice calfs, man!”
Having thus gotten you in presentable form, we’ll begin our trek around to all the old landmarks I remember so fondly. Can you think of a better place to start off than at the domes? I mean, I’ve only been there one time, and I wanna see if I still get goose-bumps. As long as we’re here, maybe we’ll just pop in to say “hi” to everybody — including you-know-who.
“Alright, alright, we’re leavin’ already! Sheesh! And yes, these ARE my clothes! You gotta a problem with that?”
Feeling once again rejected by leadership, we leave the hill, full of frustration, scheming about titles for future posts. Since there’s nothing better than a nice meal to calm the nerves, we’ll head over to the Taco House on 82nd — gotta have those calories before a ride, ya know? — which, for me, will consist of a nice, fat, El Picador. “With extra sauce, and two milks, please!”
Thus acquiring a sufficient calorie base for our journey — and feeling much better about our recent rejection — we’ll head out in earnest, checking out the old alma mater, Madison High, and continue on down 82nd to Montavilla Rec. Center. “Ignore the dirty looks, Dave, they’re just jealous of our bikes.”
We’ll then make a quick left over to see Multnomah Bible. “OK Dave, OK, maybe just a quick turn through the parking lot…I know you’re uncomfortable getting’ so close to these guys.”
Turning right, we’ll spin on down Glisan to the old B.T., and pop into the bookstore for a just a minute. “What? Dick Andrew got fired? (Gasp!) Because he said what?…hmmm. Well anyway…do you have ‘Essays On The Oldest Profession: The Mandatory Tithe’ by David G. Mackin. No? And why not, pray tell? Oh…not due out till August? OK…thanks, anyway.”
Now, we head for downtown, making our way across the Burnside Bridge…spinning…spinning…spinning…Uh-oh! What’s this?…the dreaded Burnside Bums!! “Hey, look at the fags in their cute little tights!”
Shake it off, Dave.
Just smile, and let me do the talking…“You betcha, cutie! Waddya doin’ tonight?”
((Oh BTW, now is the time for us to start doing that difficult bicycle maneuver known as “mashing” — peddling very, very hard, with head down and elbows in.))
Since no trip to Portland would be complete without stopping in at Powells — and having easily lost the out-of-shape bums (slackers!) — we’ll do just that. “Ah, love that musty smell!”
Heck, since we’re so close, I think we’ll go right on up Burnside to Washington Park. “Pittock Mansion is so lovely this time of year!”
Mustn’t forget the Rose Gardens. Hey! Isn’t that Ken Mal…? “Nice backhand, dude!”
Consulting our watches, we see it’s starting to get late, so we decide to head back, turning around and crossing the Ross Island. By this time, I notice you’re looking a bit peekid, and probably getting hungry again, so I think we’ll make our way up the Taco House off 33rd and Powell to finish our ride with (another) well-deserved meal. Where I will order (another) nice, fat, El Picador. “With extra sauce, and two milks.”
((”Now, wasn’t that fun, Dave? What’s that?…you wanna keep the turquoise and pink get-up? Fine with me, bro…no problem, I’ll kick in for it. Huh? No man, I would never do that! Alright…alright…OK…(raising right hand)…
…I promise to never mention this on the blog!”))
-joe
March 22nd, 2008 at 5:07 am
Like some of the more seasoned (read: “old”) saints around here, I knew him as well, but it was when he was an adolescent. He was always a good kid.
Although we realize threads can develop a life of their own, weaving their way back and forth on and off topic, still though, at latest count, posts on him constitute the two most popular subjects — by far — on this blog, numbering 360+ each.
Thus, I agree with you, ex; it’s high time we gave it a rest.
I appreciate the courage you have in sticking up for him, BTW.
(You, too, Steve!)
-joe
March 22nd, 2008 at 6:34 pm
Thanks everyone for sharing!
Ah the memories come back to me; Family Camp with Sister “B” doing the cooking; brother Wency helping set up chairs in the prayer room which became an adjunct room for additional seating when the sanctuary filled; I can’t quite remember her name…Sister Swanson? (Dick Iverson’s Mother-in-law) would always testify and explaim “Glory be to Jesus” (in an accent I want to say was Swedish..not sure but it was always charming and humorous to hear); a beautiful Lady.
Good times, real people truly excited about God moving in their lives as well as others.
Whatever happened to Brother Butch Steele, Steve Paulson, Ken Wylde? I would really love to come across a “Where are they now” type of reference.
Thanks all,
Steve
March 24th, 2008 at 9:22 pm
Just found out that Ken is Pastor of the Washington D.C. church. Sheeesh, its been too many years!
April 30th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
I would like to pose a question that comes to my mind while reading many of the comments left here.
Many times, comments have been left saying that Judah Smith is not representing the true Jesus. Which is then in turn leading many of young people to follow a false Jesus.
I am being offensive or upset, I am simply asking for a theological basis that follow up with these comments and to show for you personally who you beleive the “true” Jesus is, and how Ps Smith has missed the mark.
Again, I’m not getting angry, or trying to defend him, he can look after himself. All I am asking is for the reasoning behind the comments of his representing a falsefied Jesus.
This could be a very interesting discussion.
Thank you.
PS I live in Australia, and have or have had any personal relationship with the man.
Again, thank you.
May 1st, 2008 at 8:24 am
Judah’s lifestyle and beliefs lead us to conclude that he follows another Jesus.
Judah believes that through following Christ one receives financial prosperity, complete physical healing, and personal joy. Yet, look at Jesus’ life. He was poor, beaten and crucified, and suffered personal pain.
Judah’s father, Wendell Smith, claims that there is another Gospel, the gospel of prosperity. How could they get so far off?
Furthermore, Judah believes that he can do anything because of the Holy Spirit, which is why he has had absolutely no university experience or theological study. A true pastor that followed the Holy Spirit would be driven to study, humble, and accessible. Judah is lazy, plays golf all day, spends his entire sermon talking about himself, and he is impossible to talk to unless you are in his club.
Judah is a marketing genius, he is a great motivational figure, but that is it. He could easily do the same thing with Mormonism, or any other religion.
May 1st, 2008 at 1:48 pm
So we are to be poor, broke and not happy?
May 1st, 2008 at 3:27 pm
Didn’t Jesus suffer and die so that we can have life? He suffered so that we might over come the world and the challenges of life. The grace of God pours over into area of your life…
May 1st, 2008 at 4:36 pm
I for got to add the NOT is my PS.
Interesting point CTP.
However, you have discussed his personal life, ie questioning his integrity,
I am asking for backup, or alternatives to what it is that he preaches.
You have included in your point the “Gospel of Prosperity”; I am not yet well read on the basis for this theological ideal, so as far as that goes, I am not able to discuss that at all, apologies. I will seek out to learn more in the near future. You mentioned personal joy. By you comment, are you implying that Jesus lost his personal joy. Remembering that joy is not happiness, not a feeling or an emotion. Just wondering.
A sermon of his i recently listened to is entitled “From Top to Bottom”. Personally I find this to be a particularly good message. It is founded in biblical truth and in no way (that i have found) is there anything fundamentally wrong, that leads people to a “false” Jesus.
My main point in entering this discussion board is to find out how Jesus is being misrepresented. How, why and what do you believe should have been said instead. If the gospel of prosperity is the only point, and attacking personal integrity, no matter whom, then I am disappointed. Again I add, I am nobody to him. Absolutely no personal relationship, I’m just some kid in Australia. I am not trying to change what you think, how you think, why you think; I would just like to KNOW what you think, and why you think.
Again, thank you for your time.
May 1st, 2008 at 5:02 pm
I totally don’t mind your questions. In fact, I wish people from Judah’s ministry had your curiosity and attitude.
If you are not familiar with the Prosperity gospel or the Word of Faith movement, then you probably are not going to have the necessary knowledge to deconstruct Judah and the City Church.
Theologically, Judah and the City Church represent the megachurch way of doing ministry. It is essentially theological fundamentalism done in a trendy and hip way. The Word of Faith roots help disclose the interesting connection to Christian Science and other so-called Christian communities.
Judah’s father will not even let anyone say “you have cancer” because he believes that somehow that magically affects his health. That is only one example, but it shows their connection to Word of Faith theology.
Lastly, the church manipulates tons of kids and makes them do all the dirty work while the pastors golf and drive BMWs and Escalades. This is not an attack on their integrity only because their actions come directly from their theology. They have completely merged capitalism with theology/ecclesiology. Church is simply a business, a way to profit and become wealthy. Church members are simply dispensable laborers; this blog is full of people who fit that last category.
I served in Judah’s ministry for 6 years; I know what I’m talking about.
May 1st, 2008 at 7:20 pm
What you’re implying is that Christians must either believe that God wants us to be filthy rich and happy (though more often than not, the two show a negative correlation - but we won’t get into that here), or we believe that we must suffer, be broke, and remain unhappy (though, once again, these things are not always correlational).
This is a dangerous and false dichotomy to set up.
And having life is synonymous with having money, healing, a (physically) beautiful wife/husband, a two-story house, white-picket fence, 2.5 kids, etc.? And God (or perhaps, god) boils down to nothing more than a genie in a bottle, who exists merely to grant you your wildest temporal dreams and satisfy every whim of desire you have (for this, indeed, is the route to happiness) when you rub him the right way.
Sometimes the best blessing a person can have is through suffering. Look at Jesus, He suffered - but He did not suffer for nothing - He suffered for something greater than He could’ve attained had He been afraid of the suffering and simply believed that all suffering was a curse/sign that he’d done something wrong.
May 1st, 2008 at 7:51 pm
All I am saying is: I bet not many people on this blog are not living the way Jesus was living either. If we are going to use living the way Jesus lived as our standard. Sell everything you have, wander from place to place not knowing where you are going to lay your head. Let others supply your food and shelter..etc etc. I am sure you get my point…
Poverty and Prosperity can be taken to an extreme on both ends. Some of the former city church interns and such that are against the PROSPERITY gospel..are students of NW University…not the cheapest school to attend. How are the paying for that school? Fishes and Loaves…probably not.
We can debate all day long whether or whoever should drive what, live where etc. Great debate it..the fact is the poor amoung us are RICH to most of the world.
Get on a plane a fly somewhere and then come home and sit in your nice college dorm or wherever and debate.
Just a couple of thoughts to stir the pot.
May 1st, 2008 at 10:15 pm
Um. I’m sure that I have spent more time in developing countries than you think. Oh, nice ad hominem with the Northwest U remark.
Of course… everyone in the U.S. is rich. We are not fighting over who is the most like Jesus, or the least rich. We are examining which theology lends itself best to Christ’s. City Church prosperity theology is simply just capitalism. I am trying to develop a theology that is critical of western constructions. Being against prosperity does not mean being against money. Money does not even really exist; we pretend it does. That is how I paid for my degree in Religion & Philosophy from Northwest. However, our theological commitments should lead us away from the privileging of money as physical evidence of the blessing of God.
The City Church and churches like it are not trying to reach the rich for Jesus; they are trying to reach the rich for riches.
Check out Wendell and Gini’s new $3 million dollar house and Judah’s Escalade that he just got for free to replace his 1 year old Mercedes that he also got for free. They are celebrities, not ministers.
May 1st, 2008 at 10:52 pm
There seems to be a sever lack in the answering of my question.
This disappoints me.
If we are to have a low care factor for the physical things of this world (ie money) then why is it that when somebody poses a question about the reasoning for peoples critiscm of another humans teaching, that only money comes up for discussion. If we see it as such a small thing, why oh why do we make such a big thing about it. I am not making any personal attacks on anybody here, I am simply pointing out that the only questionable ideal people on this blog that has come forth from Judah Smith is about money.
I hold very little importance about what someone drives and what they wear etc. and Jesus didn’t either. He’d commune with poor folk and rich folk also. None more so. Sure, I do not have great experience with the feared “Prosperity Gospel”, but I do beleive that God grants us life and life in abundance. That is not to say, that that statment is PURELY about the monetary value written on a bank account, but who on earth can say that it has absolutely no relevance to it, for everybody on the planet. God gives gifts according to HIS riches. HIS riches. God does whatever HE wants. Who are we to box God in? I have no doubt, no doubt, that people on this blog are well meaning, well intentioned, God fearing Christians, but when I ask a question and only money (which quite frankly is a subject I am yet to hear him preach about, via downloading from GC website) is responded, is there not something wrong with how we are seeing this ministry?
I ask again, what is the THEOLOGICAL basis for Ps Judah Smith representing a “false” Jesus, and for you personally who you believe the “true” Jesus is, and how Ps Smith has missed the mark.
I truly hope more careful thought will be applied than just shouting out about money.
Again, I thank you all for your time and the sharing of your opinions.
May 2nd, 2008 at 5:10 am
i don’t have a theoogical basis for my opinions. i just think Judah uses emotion as a substitute for Faith. but if you like listening to judah, go for it, he is entertaining.
May 2nd, 2008 at 5:14 am
Cool.
Thanks catalyst.
May 2nd, 2008 at 9:39 am
Hey Babycakes, Jessi and “Help me Understand”,
I think you bring up some good points. I think the reason people talk about the money issue with these pastors is because they get their money from “preaching the gospel”. What gospel you might ask…the Gospel of Grace? No, they preach the gospel of prosperity and self help. It is another gospel.
While they do live in nice houses and drive nice cars, the fact they own these isn’t the issue, it is how they abuse the title of a preacher to get these things. The problem is they tell poor people to give them money so God can bless them for giving them the money to “further the gospel”, then turn around and own a bunch of material things including large houses (yes plural), nice cars, condos in Hawaii, and who knows what else. Do you recall how Jesus told His disciples to not heap up treasures on earth? They quote these scriptures to get large offerings, then disobey these scriptures in their personal lives.
There are scriptures that deal with false teachers (I will put some of them below) and many of them talk about how false teachers will use covetousness to get gain (make merchandise) from the flock.
Catalyst said Judah is entertaining, but remember that in the last days people will heap up teachers for their itching ears, so beware of who scratches your ear.
Paul told Timothy to beware of doctrine because it will save his soul and those who hear him, and Jesus said to beware of the leaven of bad doctrine because s little leaven will leaven the whole lump.
Peter warned:
What group of Christians could possibly fit this description if not the prosperity teachers?
Jesus warned of these false teachers too, implying they will teach very close to the true Gospel..so convincing they would deceive the elect if it were possible.
If you want more specifics on how the city church preaches incorrectly, you can visit my blog. I didn’t write much about Judah on my blog, because he is a sheep following his father’s preaching…but I try to discuss what they preach and show why it isn’t biblical.
The bottom line is they have created a version of god that fulfills their every need because the true God is not to their liking. This is extremely dangerous and offensive to the one true God (that’s why He gave us the 2nd commandment).
If you want to become more educated on the word of faith and prosperity false gospels, I would listen to a series of lectures by Steve Gregg, he does a wonderful job explaining them with integrity (not making straw man arguments) and then uses the bible to show us why they are false.
Go to http://thenarrowpath.com then click on “topical lectures” then scroll down to “word of faith” and there are 4 lectures that talk about these pernicious doctrines. I believe it is balanced and fair, and will equip you to identify the teachers of these dangerous doctrines.
May 2nd, 2008 at 10:05 am
I think this statement alone sums up the false doctrine that is the “prosperity” message. If any of these idiots can’t comprehend that its WRONG to take money from other people under the guise of ministry to pay for big houses, nice cars, and lavish vacations then they don’t deserve another breath of explanation.
I’ve always tell a prosperity believer the same thing - IF YOU WANT TO BE RICH GO START YOUR OWN BUSINESS, GO GET A REAL EDUCATION AND GO BECOME A DOCTOR OR LAWYER OR WORK IN CORPORATE AMERICA AND WORK YOUR ASS OFF TO GET TO THE TOP…BUT DO NOT TAKE OTHER PEOPLES HARD EARNED MONEY TO FUND YOUR PERSONAL BANK ACCOUNT. ONE CAN ONLY IMAGINE GOD’S JUDGEMENT FOR DOING THAT.
May 2nd, 2008 at 10:42 am
Eleytheria, Great insight on pointing out the false dichotomy!
Good point about money not guaranteeing happiness. The following book demonstrates through social science data how that riches do not make Americans happy: Gross National Happiness by Arthur Brooks.
—
Craig, fabulous post! I want to check out your blog sometime.
Ex, good, practical advice!
To me, what really sums up the false doctrine of the prosperity message is not just the abuse of the title of “preacher” to fund a lavish lifestyle but the abuse by the preachers of the Bible to feed their lusts. The “preacher” uses the “Word of God” in an unlawful way to gain personal wealth by focusing only on the promises of material gain (mostly from the books of Deut. and Proverbs) and taking them out of their covenantal context. Paul says that if we are to use the law, we must use it “lawfully” (I Timothy 1:8).
—
babycakes said: I hold very little importance about what someone drives and what they wear etc. and Jesus didn’t either.
baby, I agree that we should not judge people from the outward appearance; I also agree that we can be just as prejudiced against rich people (e.g., by saying that they all have obtained their riches through illegal means) as we can against poor people (saying that they are all “lazy”). At the same time, Jesus said, “By their fruits you shall know them;” and “out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.” What are the “fruits” about which Jesus is talking here? They must be something observable in some way. Words, too, are things that we can hear and not just something of the invisible heart. So, I’d like to encourage you to “add to your faith, knowledge” and insight and continue studying what the Word of God says about Wealth and how it warns us against those who use the ministry, like Craig said, for their own personal gain. Thanks for your great thoughts.
May 2nd, 2008 at 10:50 am
Essentially, their ministry glorifies success and prosperity more than Jesus. You won’t necessarily pick this up by listening to sermons online (although you might if you actually quantified the amount of time spent talking about Jesus compared to other things like, say, cooking or video games). But ultimately, there is nothing in the way they conduct their ministry that would lead anyone to believe that Jesus is enough. And He is.
If asked, Judah would agree that sacrifice, humility, denial of self, and service are essential to discipleship. But he is emersed in a culture that rarely demonstrates these qualities. He’s a good guy, and a brother in Christ, so I don’t want to get on him too hard. I just don’t think he’s ever examined whether the priorities of the ministry he is involved with aligns well with scripture. And since the ministry, in its current format, greatly benefits him, he has a vested interest in defending it. Its that whole “Don’t bite the hand that feeds you” thing.
As others have referred to, a primary theme of their ministry is that physical/material blessing is the divine right of every Christian. As a result, they allow their flesh to desire things in a way that used to be called coveting. And because they convinced themselves that God wants them to have more influence, bigger buildings, and more stuff, the centrality of Jesus as our sole aim and only source of true joy is lost.
Whether we struggle with disease, relationship problems, or poverty, they teach that God wants to deliver every Christians from their difficult circumstance. I think that is the “false” Jesus you’re asking about. When people come to that Jesus, they frequently lose their faith once the benefit they were looking for (other than salvation and a relationship with God) doesn’t materialize.
I believe a complete view of scripture teaches that sometimes He delivers us miraculously from our circumstance and sometimes He doesn’t. But He always sustains us, He always receives the glory, and He is always enough. What we have on earth doesn’t really matter because the true reward is in heaven. And if we place our hope in the eternal rather than the temporary, we will never be disappointed.
DOC
May 2nd, 2008 at 11:07 am
sooo. wendell and gini used to live off her mother’s (yvonne) rich husband’s money and now they live well off the life of their followers…
wonder what they will do when THAT dries up ?
May 2nd, 2008 at 1:25 pm
[…] “It’s not about the cars or houses, it’s about deception and manipulation for the end result of fleecing the flock. False doctrine caused me to leave the church…Paul told Timothy to watch his doctrine closely because it would save his soul and those who hear him. Why do people who take doctrine seriously leave that church? You do the math.” (Craig, City Business Church blog, July 21st, 2007 at 12:41 am) […]
May 3rd, 2008 at 4:42 am
Thank you all who have commented thus far.
I had been growing worried that much of what was said was from hurting, jealous people who found comfort in bitching.
I thank you all very very much for taking the time and effort to say the reasons behind this critical (at times harsh) blog. Special thanks to DOC, David Mackin & Craig. Terrific effort and well spoken.
This has encouraged me to look harder, not only Judah Smiths preaching, (which so far I am yet to encounter any false teaching and therefore find hime to be a terrific motivator and preacher), but anyone I listen to. I think the reason I have missed the whole Prosperity Gospel scene, is that I have only heard him preach at conferences and over the net. Not actually spent numorous weeks, under the services which he directs.
I would like to say one more thing, I believe our focus on deconstructing such ministries, should be on the bible as we see it (the Word of God) and leave the sarcasm and dry wit (however appropriate) behind. Such things, I have found, most often bring very little fruit yet much pain.
From your 18 year old, Aussie friend.
Dave Hughes
babycakes
May 3rd, 2008 at 2:21 pm
Dave H, Thanks for the appreciation. It is kind of you.
If you are interested in doing some more studying on the Prosperity Doctrine (money, wealth and the Christian), then may I suggest to get yourself a good Bible Dictionary and read some of the articles related to the subject. Check for articles with the key words: Money; Wealth; Riches, etc.
Some good Bible dictionaries are: The Anchor Bible Dictionary; The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible (plus the Supplement); and The New Bible Dictionary. There is also Tozer’s, Wealth and the Christian.
Since you’re from Aussie, do you know about Kevin or Mark Conner and their church in Victoria (I think).
May 3rd, 2008 at 2:36 pm
Dave Hughes, I agree with your comment about sarcasm! I don’t see it as a very productive communication technique or effective invitation to dialogue either.
I just wanted to say that as I read your latest comment of gratefulness, I felt that your testimony is what makes posting articles on this blog all worth it: “This [blog] has encouraged me to look harder, not only Judah Smith’s preaching…but anyone I listen to.” …Spot on! I do agree with the bumper sticker that says: Question Authority. Questioning isn’t rebelling.
Since you have revealed your name and age, would you mind if I ask you what you feel God is calling you to do in life?
May 3rd, 2008 at 3:08 pm
Hi DM
I have not heard of Kevin or Mark Conner, sorry!
I am a member of the Christian City Church movement. I have finished my schooling and am currently working so as to afford to live in the northern beaches of Sydney (very expensive) so as to do the 3 year ministry course. I do have a calling to ministry, specifically evangelism.
The reason i decided to comment was that i had been keeping close tabs on this blog for the past year, whilst listening to more and more of Judah Smiths preaching, although I found nothing in hiw sermons to be outrageously contrary to biblical principles I knew that there must be a reason behind much of what is said on this blog. Hence my probing for the biblical reasoning for many comments. As this prosperity gospel is something I have yet to encounter from Judah Smith, and find that his sermons are uplifting, eye opening, relevant and not the least, biblical; I will continue to listen to him and hold him in high regard.
I am unlikely to respond to much more on this blog as I have already had my 30secs, unless of course somebody directly asks me something.
Good luck for the future all, and although questioning is great, always make sure there is a biblical reason for doing so, and as Jesus said submit to leaders, not blindly but respectfully (paraphrase). Have your hearts open to the things of God without close mindedness or lack of faith.
Thank you all, and good luck for the future (albeit no such thing as luck haha)
Dave Hughes
babycakes
May 3rd, 2008 at 4:21 pm
Dave said: I am a member of the Christian City Church movement.
Dave, I understood you to say that you don’t want to answer a bunch of qqs from this blog right now. At the same time, if you ever have the time or desire, I would be very interested in what the “Christian City Church movement.” Is the name The City Church of Wendell and Judah Smith just a coincidence with your movement’s name?
I found the following on the Wikipedia site: “Growth of Christian City Churches and similar movements is attributed to their upbeat, modern and relevant approach to religious services as well as their wealth due to the running of the establishment more like a business than a traditional non-profit religious organization.”
So, how does the CCC movement operate financially “more like a business than a traditional non-profit?” Do they preach the Mandatory Tithe? Do the many outreach churches tithe or pay monthly dues to the mother church? Who sets the salary of Dr. Phil Pringle, the founder of CCCI? Are they members of the Evangelical Council of Financial Accountability? All of these questions would be of great relevance on this blog.
Thanks, Dave, for contributing to our discussions here. God bless you with your gift of evangelism. I hope to hear from you again.
May 4th, 2008 at 7:39 am
Dave,
It is not my intent to be condescending toward you, so please don’t take my comments as such. With age, God mellows youthful zeal. The bathroom (carnal) humor that so amuses many young people in America, will eventually lose it’s appeal, for the person who is growing in Christ.
The Lord did say, through Paul, to get rid of anger, bitterness, course talk, etc., and to think on the lovely things, as part of our walk with Jesus and with His body on earth.
If you listen closely to a Judah sermon, you will hear many carnal, guttural references. These are not born of the spirit, but of his flesh, his ego, his zeal to mass disciples unto himself. I’ve reviewed a few of his sermons here and believe IF he resisted the temptation to “go there” to the bathroom and bedroom and shower humor with his listeners, who gobble it up like little kids with dirty little minds, he’d have NO audience.
It is a reasonable question to ask, whether people listen to him because he is “hip”, “funny”, “entertaining”, etc. ? Each of those things, used more often than not to describe Judah, is a ‘barometer of the flesh’. So IF you were to strip those things out, his message is no more or less ‘anointed’ than any other preacher of the word who does not resort to such antics to titillate listeners.
Something about the Lord’s words “to tickle itching ears” comes to mind when I think about Judah’s messages.
Could you tell me please, why does a young person seek out another young person to hear the word of God and NOT a more mature / seasoned elder in the Lord, who preaches a more sure / pure word?
One of my favorite online brother’s, is Gary Carpenter, who has many many audio sermons online at http://www.garycarpenter.org/
Another is Wayne Jacobsen whose site is http://www.lifestream.org
They are men, seasoned in the Word, mature, reliable, trustworthy elders in Christ Jesus. The word they serve up is not tainted by the antics that typically litter a message from Judah.
Sam
May 4th, 2008 at 10:20 am
Sam, excellent remarks; i just hope that dave h. responds to them…
May 4th, 2008 at 5:10 pm
Quote from C.T.P
“Judah’s Escalade that he just got for free to replace his 1 year old Mercedes that he also got for free.”
Just wanted to correct you on this above statement you made.
Judah Smith never owned a Mercedes. He owned a BMW that was about 3-4 years old that he gave to a pastors son for his 18th birthday.
Regarding seasoned elders and preachers of the word. Through out history of the church, God has used many younger people to: preach, teach etc etc. I do not think it is fair or even correct to make a statement like this:
“Could you tell me please, why does a young person seek out another young person to hear the word of God and NOT a more mature / seasoned elder in the Lord, who preaches a more sure / pure word?”
One of my favorite preachers to listen to is Mark Driscoll from Mars Hill-not much older then Judah Smith. I would say that he is a very seasoned pastor and preacher.
May 4th, 2008 at 7:35 pm
Thank you to a previous writer who told us to ck out Wendell and Gini’s
3 million dollar house. AAhh you answered so much in one sentence we can’t tell you or thank you enough. Why not publish the address–I mean its all public knowledge right?
We write about the delinquencies on the CCC group here-that is Capital Christian of the Ken Wilde variety–of Meridian, IDAHO –NPC fame.
The puzzle pieces all fit now—a former member from CCC,
of which there are many now, told us how Ken preached how he was sick of hearing of pastors million dollar houses;
that is till he got one of his own! 1.4 million retail.
We get it now –the competition reigns in this group esp. between double cousins! You should hear of how they are getting them–we don’t know the whole story but it is leaked — by more and more ex-members
tithe members who are offering up their own meager houses
and savings as collateral on notes and loans for the church.
Oh how sweet it is! Lifestyles of the rich and celebrity pastors!
Woe to you scribes and pharisees - or am I just imagining the Lord said
this as a warning?
May 4th, 2008 at 7:41 pm
Hey is this the latest scam on Prosperity Pastors are us? Why not have
your tithing members stretch a little bit farther and put their own houses up
collateral.
Have a weak Sunday offering? No problem just have a pledge drive using
members homes and equity. Its all for the Kingdom right?
Did Kenneth Copeland create a memo on this or was it the runaway bestseller
‘How to Build Your Mega Church in 5 easy steps’ Number 5 on the New York
Times list. Any day now.
May 4th, 2008 at 7:44 pm
Help Me:
You say tomato
I say tomato!
BMW or Escalade–its all the same to me.
May 4th, 2008 at 9:09 pm
Yes yes. I apologize. Apparently my facts are not straight. I was told that Judah got a new tricked out Benz from Hillsong a couple years ago, and then he have it to little Jude who totaled it (but God will provide a new one I hope). Then Judah got his Escalade.
So it was a BMW??? Wow… I guess the prosperity gospel is totally justified, because our pastors aren’t driving around in Mercedes, they are driving around in holy BMWs.
Well.. Gini Smith drives a red Mercedes…. or did… I used to have to take it in to have it cleaned professionally… it was definitely a fast ride
May 5th, 2008 at 8:11 am
C.T.P
I have read many of your posts and comments here on this blog. You are obviously an itelligent and bright person. (dont know who you are so you could be a man or a women, thats why I said person. Thats suppose to funny!) Anyways, I think you should give whoever you are talking about at least a little more respect to make sure your “facts” are right before you state comments that appear to be truth.
I think we take an important issue of biblical or non-biblical truth and starts bickering over if someone drives a BMW or MERCEDES. Some would say so what, other would say go buy a FORD or a CHEVY.
So..the point is what again? Should people tithe or not tithe?
One church teaches tithe.
Another churches teaches giving.
Another church teaches tithe and giving.
You people got us poor un-intelligent followers all freakin messed up.
So where does all the money come from to feed the poor, put clothes on the naked, plant churches, send out pastors, print bibles, build hospitals etc etc etc etc etc or whatever?
I think we go back and do what the did in the book of acts. sell what you got give to the “apostles” whoever that is in 2008 and the “apostles” can make sure everyone is not in need. According to Acts 4:34-35. Just dont lie about it or you will die.
C.T.P
If you ever become a senior pastor, leader, set man, point man, overseer blah blah blah. whatver, you get the point. How will you or what do you say us younger people who desire to pastor and plant churches do to raise the money to do it? Mars Hill teaches giving but when the money is not coming they get up and tell the people they are not giving enought. City Church teaches tithe and give offerings. Ok, so whats the difference? Where does the money come to plant churches and to reach people with ##########.
I want to hear from you how you think we should do it. Dont give me a bunch of “we do it what the bible says” well, from just a guy that just reads the bible I see both? and there are arguments for both sides. So what say you?
May 5th, 2008 at 8:15 am
Wow, that was wonderful. Its not the same. A BMW is a car and an ESCALADE is an SUV.
A tomato and a tomato are same thing a TOMATO.
May 5th, 2008 at 8:28 am
Well…
First, I am probably not much older than you my friend; I am 23, and male, since you were wondering.
Now to the important stuff… I’m not going to say anything like “the Bible says so,” because, as you so rightly observed, there are a plurality of possible arguments available from the text.
Thus, we must turn to the figure who serves as the re-interpreter of Torah for the New Testament community in these matters, and that person is Paul. Paul never endorses a tithe, but rather he re-defines covenantal giving in terms of proper motive. One should be a cheerful giver rather than a legalistic giver.
If one follows the logic of the Old Testament teaching of tithing, then one would be giving to oneself. For example:
I MUST TITHE TO THE CHURCH
I AM THE CHURCH
THEREFORE I TITHE TO MYSELF
There is no New Testament equivalent to the Jewish priests, though of course, Jesus is our priest. Many pastors try to claim that THEY are the New Testament equivalents of the priesthood, but that is incorrect. Remember, OT priests could not possess any land, therefore if Wendell wants to get part of the tithe, he has to give up his land (:
So what do we do? Do we give 10%, do we give nothing? I think we must return to Paul. There definitely are needs in a church community and members should contribute cheerfully. But that might mean buying a beer for a friend who is new to the community; picking up the tab for dinner, or helping out a homeless person.
Does that help?
May 5th, 2008 at 9:06 am
Thank you for your response.
If there are “a plurality of possible arguments available from the text.” Could it be possible that the presentation of tithing is incorrect, rather then we are not to tithe at all?
How did the OT priests live? They didnt have jobs. Their job was to minister to the Lord for the people. Obviously we do not need a priest. Jesus is the High Priest I can go to Him. So then do we need pastots, teachers, preachers, bible colleges etc etc?
My questions come from a desire not just to “buy a beer for someone” or buy a dinner for someone in our community of believers. Is the church then just a community where we all just look out for each other. Even with that the apostles had money brought to them from the sell of properties. Obviously there is a leadership structure in the NT.
Again, I ask the question using to large churches in the seattle area:
The City Church
Mars Hill
Are they doing it correctly?
I do not see to many people in our community of believers, giving out of a cheerful heart only, to support ministries the size of these two churches.
How would you do it if you were to plant a church?
May 5th, 2008 at 10:12 am
giving with a cheerful heart means each person using their OWN money to buy 30 pairs (thats 30 souls receiving love for 12 dollars) of socks at costco or wal-mart for like 12 bucks and giving them out to homeless people.
Homeless people really need socks and gloves especially during the winter/fall/spring.
LARGE churches need to figure out what to do with themselves on their own.
It is not anyones fault in the congregation that someone felt it was necessary to erect a million or multi-million dollar building “in the name of Jesus.”
I can hold a huge church gathering at a local park for FREE. Everyone can have an amazing time talking about the Lord, praying, and eating BBQ.
Afterwards we can go hand out free socks to homeless people downtown and watch tears fill up in their eyes because they though people didn’t care anymore.
Then we can go to someones house and watch a movie, talk, or whatever.
I have done things like this on numerous occasions. They are amazing times I won’t ever forget.
SO MANY THINGS IN LIFE ARE FREE!
Some people just can’t seem to get it through their head that you don’t have to have MONEY to gather.
May 5th, 2008 at 10:31 am
Thanks James!
Have you done this yet?
May 5th, 2008 at 10:40 am
yes but be safe. I do it alone much of the time which I would NOT recommend at all.
Working for 10 years at a gas station really helped me figure out how to not press the wrong buttons with people in despair.
People will fly off the handle every once in awhile just don’t feed into it and walk away is usually the best thing. Don’t be scared by it either — people feed off of fear. Most people are just screaming out for attention when they do bizzare things.
So always go with a partner or 10! Espeically at night.
(night is the best time to do this I have found since homeless people are usually concentrated into one general area to sleep or prepare for sleep)
May 5th, 2008 at 11:27 am
Good words James.
Help Me Understand,
Along with James, I think Mars Hill and City Church have to come up with fund raising methods that fit their organization. Notice I used the word ‘organization’ instead of church. They are brand names, companies, marketing facilities, and we cannot compare them to the new testament “church.” At least Mars Hill is honest and open about the amount of money received/budgeted.
These two brand names are so large and competitive because of their marketing schemes. City Church markets for upper-middle class Republican families who want more toys in their church, while Mars hill markets towards young avant-garde liberals and evangelical Christians who want to have a beer and wear jeans to church. Most of their numbers come from smaller churches who cannot offer what the big brands can. Lots of money is needed to fund their resources, and thus, we cannot even compare them to the apostles and the NT community.
Regarding the NT community, we must also ask the question of whether or not their communal decisions are indeed prescriptive. Just because the NT church did it, can we justify doing it today? The NT community also made lots of mistakes, are we then justified in making those mistakes too?
Just because something is IN the Bible, it does not necesarily follow that we should apply it today. Of course this leads into the greater debate concerning how we ought to view Scripture.
So, I might not be the best person to envisage a proper ecclesiology of giving. I am not a pastor or a church leader. I am a student of philosophy, a relativist, and I am sympathetic towards Anglicanism, not megachurchism.
May 5th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
C.T.P wrote:
“Regarding the NT community, we must also ask the question of whether or not their communal decisions are indeed prescriptive. Just because the NT church did it, can we justify doing it today? The NT community also made lots of mistakes, are we then justified in making those mistakes too?”
What mistakes did the NT church (assuming we are talking about the book of acts as our guide) make?
Just because something is IN the Bible, it does not necesarily follow that we should apply it today. Of course this leads into the greater debate concerning how we ought to view Scripture.
What part of the bible should we not apply today?
May 5th, 2008 at 12:38 pm
Geez this is getting complicated! I say we don’t tithe at all till these
preachers come to their senses. And yes I do give to help those in need
but now I do it personally cutting out like 80% of the expenses like
car detailing for big wigs.
No need to keep those red mercedes on the road -at least not with my offerings.
May 5th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
Then dont tithe. Great! Glad that you can give such wonderful imput to the conversation.
May 5th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
Help Me,
Your name implies that you want to understand. Help ME understand YOU. Is the only form of understanding permissable to you packaged in long detailed explanations?
If you don’t like sarcasm, then you may want to move on, because the sarcasm is not going away — after all CBC Blog IS a satire blog!
(duh.)
May 5th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
Oh, I dont mind sarcasm. As long as people dont mind me responding the way I do. Fair enough? Plus, I like it here. It helps me think about what I believe and why I believe what I believe.
Now to your question De-Tox. What do want to UNDERSTAND about ME?
May 5th, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Help Me,
I jumped in to defend Fortunes. I was referring to your condescending comment about his comment on tithing. By all means be sarcastic. But isnt there a fine line between sarcasm and being condescending?
I wasn’t telling you to move along, though. I was merely suggesting if the sarcastic stuff bothers you (which I perceived by your reaction to Fortunes’ tithe comment), then you may want to move on. But by all means, I’m glad you plan to stay!
I like this blog too because it helps me think about what I believe and understand what others believe too.
May 5th, 2008 at 1:30 pm
Hello again Help Me,
Your questions are good, but some of them need many hours of discussion (in person helps a lot better). So, as much as I would like to respond to your questions about my view of scripture, I cannot. There is some related discussion on my personal blog, which is available through clicking on C.T.P. You may have to dig for it, but it is there if you are interested.
I’m definitely coming from a liberal theological perspective. So a lot of what I say is probably not going to be familiar to you. Thus, we should probably keep the discussion narrowly focused on tithing.
I do not tithe. I give as I feel led. I give to ministries that I trust. I would not give to City Church because I believe that they misuse their money. I would give to University Presbyterian, where I attended for a while, because I trust them. I would also buy a fellow Christian a beer and have a conversation about theology, because that is an investment into the intellectual growth of a Christian mind, which is apart of the spiritual growth of a Christian individual, which then means that this person has the potential to change the church.
Tithing, as many churches teach it, is a message of fear, not of love. If people don’t tithe, the pastors don’t eat. Or, in more affluent circles, if people don’t tithe, God won’t bless them. Fear, fear, fear.
May 5th, 2008 at 1:39 pm
With all respect intended, this entire blog tows the whole line of a bunch of things, wouldn’t you say?
I am sure we will get to know each other well!
May 5th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
Hello!
“I do not tithe. I give as I feel led. I give to ministries that I trust.”
Fair enough. I do tithe and have for awhile. I started tithing out of conviction that I felt was from the Holy Spirit as I read the bible. At the time I did not attend a church that taught on tithing. They took offerings or should I say past the plate after the singing time.
“I would not give to City Church because I believe that they misuse their money. I would give to University Presbyterian, where I attended for a while, because I trust them.”
What if the city church or any church that taught tithing as a biblical principal (which, do to your liberal theological perspective would still be hard for you to recieve hahaha) and the precieved life style was not so flamboyant would that change peoples views. For example: I become a pastor and teach tithing but live at lifestyle that is more middle of the road then I could.
I wonder is TITHING the issue or LIFESTYLE is the issue?
Are you attending a church now or have you pretty much bagged it? just wondering.
“…… which then means that this person has the potential to change the church.”
I want to see the church in America change. I am with you on this point. Though we would not agree on probably a lot of theological points. We are both probably disciples of Jesus.
“Tithing, as many churches teach it, is a message of fear, not of love. If people don’t tithe, the pastors don’t eat.”
Again we could debate this statement in so many ways and both of us be right and wrong
Should we not have pastors devoted to the full-time ministry? Should pastors work full-time jobs? I would say many churches expect their cell-leaders to work full-time and still put in a bunch of “volunteer” time. Dont get me started on that. 
May 5th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
Indeed
Great! Looking forward to it
Earlier you asked:
Maybe the question should be what are they doing with the tithes that people freely and not so freely give. So in planting a church you’d want to be honest from the beginning and stay honest with each upcoming decision. i.e. When you take an offering for someone in need like the Hurricane Katrina victims, don’t deliberate with your staff what to do with it once the money comes in; send it to the Hurricane Katrina victims. Pay the bills first and on time. Disclose a detailed account of how much money comes in and where it’s spent to the public. Set up safeguards to keep yourself and your financial staff accountable and keep the congregation aware of those safeguards.
If these churches in question weren’t abusing the tithe and offering moneys, we wouldn’t be debating whether it’s right to tithe or not. I think it behooves us to find a place to give cheerfully to those in need like James and Fortunes both suggested. God will bless that and we will be more fulfilled knowing the money isn’t going toward lining the pockets of a pastor family who believes they can buy 4 million dollar homes (that they can write off their income taxes because it’s deemed a parsonage) and drive upscale gas-gussling vehicles, not to mention the Prada purses and Dulce Gabbana shoes and top-of-the-line suits…the list goes on. This has been the ‘beef’ all along. We aren’t saying we no longer want to give our money to God.
May 5th, 2008 at 2:14 pm
“God will bless that and we will be more fulfilled knowing the money isn’t going toward lining the pockets of a pastor family who believes they can buy 4 million dollar homes (that they can write off their income taxes because it’s deemed a parsonage) and drive upscale gas-gussling vehicles, not to mention the Prada purses and Dulce Gabbana shoes and top-of-the-line suits…the list goes on. This has been the ‘beef’ all along. We aren’t saying we no longer want to give our money to God.”
So the case for some if not most people is lifestyle. Not so much the issue of tithing. I see your point.
May 5th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
Some of us can no longer tithe for a season just to get the legalistic garbage out — so that we aren’t motivated to give out of the fear that CTP was talking about. I have no idea how long the season will last. For myself, I just hope that when I feel led to give again it will be out of a heart of gratitude and cheerfulness.
And yes, the lifestyle of the person given to definately is a factor now.
May 5th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
Help Me said: So the case for some if not most people is lifestyle. Not so much the issue of tithing. I see your point.
Help Me, Not for me; it’s both the theology as well as the lifestyle. I will go deeply into the theology in my upcoming book. If you’re interested, you can look at some of the discussions and articles that address the theological issues involved on this blog under Categories: Tithe. Plus, Sam has mentioned some other resources, too.
May 5th, 2008 at 2:31 pm
DE-TOX thank you for being honest and up front. As a person that desires to someday plant churches in america and be a senior pastor I will listen always remember this conversation.
May 5th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
David thank you I will check those out? Are you a pastor? Sorry that I do not know you.
May 5th, 2008 at 2:37 pm
thanks Help! It’s obvious to the readers here that you ask questions out of sincerity and that’s appreciated.
So what would make you want to start a church here in America? We have so many of them. Not to discourage you though, I’m just curious.
I’m logging off so if I don’t resond right away that’s why.
May 5th, 2008 at 2:37 pm
its all optional.
the real question is what brings the most glory to the kingdom of God?
1 Corinthians 4:9-12
and also
1 Corinthians 9:11-15
I can promise that trying to justify your reason for milking money out of people is NOT whats going to glorify God the most.
Paul was a tentmaker and labored on his own so that God might be glorified through him all the more. IS THIS REALLY SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?
Would you feel compelled to join a church where the leader was more concerned with giving his WHOLE LIFE to the cause like Paul was?
Or do you enjoy nice fancy clubs where everything is nice and pretty like it should be. Maybe you love perfection so much that you are even willing to give hundreds of thousands of dollars for it — great.
but in the meantime please do not be so daft to think that this is the way the whole body of Christ should operate. It totally goes against the grain for anyone who has read the bible from a neutral point of view. You sound like you are just repeating the words of mere men.
My tolerance for the perfectionist, cash hungry Christians BEGINS when the tolerance for flawed, compassionate Christians ENDS.
If you are someone asking for money in the most filthy rich country in the world I promise you aren’t fully dedicated to your people. You are dedicated to YOU.
It’s understandable to be a product of your environment but thats why the new life of Christ is so beautiful — it shows us a BETTER WAY.
May 5th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
that post wasn’t directed towards anyone specifically btw… just ranting
May 5th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
BLAHH i meant to say this:
My tolerance for the perfectionist, cash hungry Christians BEGINS when the intolerance for flawed, compassionate Christians ENDS
May 5th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
Help Me Understand asks: Are you a pastor?
Help Me Understand, It depends upon what you think a “pastor” is. I have been “ordained” a couple to times, but I am not presently pastoring a church. I’ve been preaching and teaching the Word for 37 years but I do not like titles and still feel that I am just a babe in Christ willing to learn from anyone and everyone who seeks nothing but the truth.
Many year ago, I, too, thought that God was calling me to be a “senior pastor” - one of a very large congregation. I have to admit that I begin to feel a little nervous when someone says that they are planning on being such. Initially, it gives me the feeling that they are being raised in a Senior Pastor environment and desire to emulate what he sees behind the pulpit on Sunday morning. I’m not judging you; I’m just sharing my feelings as I hear comments like these from different people. I have a very different view of ministry from what I was being taught by “Senior Pastor-minded” men many years ago.
May 5th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
correction of above: “Many year” = “Many years”
May 5th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
Why do I want to start a church in America. Thank you for asking. I believe that we have a lot of broken “christians” in America who have been abused, beat up and discarded by the church, which directly effects the Gospel from being spread in America. I believe that we have a whole bunch of people that prayed a “sinners” prayer but have never been “born again” and are still dead in sin. They have been mentally converted (maybe) but are spiritually lost.
America my friend is lost. But, you probably know that.
I want to build a safe place for disciples of Jesus to gather to worship God togther. The Temple was a very important part of Jesus’s life on earth.
I want to build a community of believers that desire to see their city they live in turn upside down by Jesus where the GOSPEL of Jesus Christ is spread primarily by people who Love God and Love people. Jesus went about doing good. He confronted the religious and at the same time called the sinner to repentance.
I want to help the way disciple of Jesus think about reaching people.
I dont believe the harvest field is in the church building but where God has placed you. To many times we try to get people to the “church” to see them saved and healed and all that. We dont need people to come to a building to get “saved” at an altar all the time. Though I am a strong believer in the local church. I want to see disciples out in the harvest being the hands and the feet of Jesus but not in some weird off by myself way but connected to a local church.
well now I am just going on and on…sorry.
May 5th, 2008 at 3:14 pm
“Initially, it gives me the feeling that they are being raised in a Senior Pastor environment and desire to emulate what he sees behind the pulpit on Sunday morning.”
I am in being raised in a senior pastor enviroment. Some things I see I agree with and other things I disagree.
Emulate is an interesting word. We all emulate someone.
May 5th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
does anyone know of a church in the portland area where people are out on a regular basis serving others?
May 5th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
Try Imago Dei
May 5th, 2008 at 4:58 pm
The Well has a drugs and AIDS outreach like I have never seen anywhere…and I have tried a lot of churches over the last 5 years
May 6th, 2008 at 9:13 am
LOVE your rantings James! Keep ‘em coming!
So did you mean that your INtolerance for the perfectionist, cash hungry Christians BEGINS when the tolerance for flawed, compassionate Christians ENDS ?
May 7th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
nah because I am NOT tolerated among Christians who claim to be perfect. I am overly blunt and too honest — many people don’t like it.
If they tolerate me, I will tolerate them. I always have tolerated them for their lying claims to perfection but they have not tolerated the fact that I claim to be far from perfect. I was provoked for it. After awhile you will either snap or leave.
It’s like how your mom always told you “ignore the bully and he will go away.” LOL that advice sure doesn’t go over well.
As i’m sure you have all experienced, some folks seem to have this barrier that won’t EVER break when it comes to an opinion contrary to their own. Once I learn this about someone, I become respectfully silent.
Then they want to make me feel bad because I keep quiet around them. They wonder why I am not engaging them in conversation and treating them like royalty.
If you watch interviews with David Miscaviage on nightline (the leader of scientology) on youtube — the resemblance of what I have personally encountered is shockingly similar. Just study his demeanor.
I also visited a church of scientology to see what kind of things went on there awhile back. It was quite the experience to see how ULTRA-convinced people can get on a lie that is just so bogus it makes me cry from laughter.
People who convince themselves so much that they bully, deflect, dominate, and interrupt (while making sure that they accuse you of doing the same) in order that they lie they are feeding themselves remains true in their mind-on-vacation.
and i say — mmmkay do that while I lol over here by the punch bowl sucka.
and that kind of sums up my whole childhood — it really sucked when I found out that many others (especially in Christian buildings) function in a similar way.
May 7th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
but on a positive note, I have met other christians who remind me why God doesn’t just destroy this whole earth.
There really are some amazing, amazing people who inspire me in so many ways — lots of you guys on this blog for example :]
If I may: Romans 11:2-5
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
3 Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.”
4But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.”
5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.
May 8th, 2008 at 9:46 am
James said
here here. there are mre than we probably realize. yes, just like God reminded Elijah. that story has come to mind often over the last few years and it’s a great comfort.
One of the reasons I keep returning to this blog is that it helps remind those of us over here that we aren’t alone.
May 8th, 2008 at 9:57 am
ya I can relate to that too. When I was in wacworld and I spoke my mind, I would get these curious stares — i used to call it the CCC Stare. But that kind of look came from the common folk like me. You should’ve seen the look that I would get, or anyone who begged to differ with the big guy. Man if looks could kill, I died more than once. They really disliked anyone who spoke their mind too freely especially a woman. Well, to survive there you had to die in many ways.
But I’ve noticed the CCC Stare comes from many Christians no matter what type of church they attend. Christians just don’t know what to do with people who like to ruminate and spar or say anything that doesn’t fit into the party line. Like it’s wrong or something. I have to admit I’ve lost all respect for those types. Not that everyone has to debate but if they can at least say “well, that’s the difference between you and me” or whatever instead of saying nothing and staring at you like you are a crazy person. You know, that ‘alrighty then’ type of look.
I’ve just thought of something. Next time that happens to me I’m gonna say ‘What was THAT look for?’ and see what happens! I could even tell them after they get all embarrassed and deny it with “What look?” that I’m doing an experiment to see what kind of answers I get when challenging people who think i’m crazy when i say something out of the ordinary. . . (I’ll tell y’all how it goes!) Oh, now I’m really getting inspired. I’ll post my findings on our blog Vortex DeTox so you’ll have to come over and see us at Vortex DeTox - the blog we started awhile back. http://vortexdetox.blogspot.com/
Btw, is that shameless promotion?
May 8th, 2008 at 11:21 am
usually what I do when I am getting hard mugged is either start talking in elmo or smeagol voice while curling up in a ball on the ground saying “helpppppp”. People usually stop staring instantly — when they don’t stop I will usually add dances or spins to it. I have done this in downtown p-town soooo many times.
I know its very immature and not for everyone but it works extremely well for me.
May 8th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
I’d love to see you do that!! You ought to record it and upload to YouTube! It’d be hilarious! if you do, let us know!
September 4th, 2008 at 9:19 pm
Wow, synic.
I think that if someone really believed going to a camp was helpful for them, and your response is to shit all over it with comments like that then you are just really cold and hard and synical. Thats comming from a non christian
November 9th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
I think its funny that you all blog about Judah. I was at a conference recently where he said frankly, “Everybody’s blogging about everything…I love you, but I will never read your blog” does it make you feel wierd that your getting so upset about Judah and Chelsea and their teaching the morality of Christ, and they don’t even care what you are doing or what you think? Personally, I love Judah Smith and even though he doesn’t read these blogs, I wish he would. I got a good laugh out of them!
April 5th, 2009 at 6:15 pm
This short video absolutely must be watched for anyone who is uncertain about Judah Smith’s preaching style.
http://vimeo.com/1713668
April 7th, 2009 at 10:29 am
Wow…this is so sadly funny. Thanks for sharing.
April 14th, 2009 at 5:22 pm
OH my that video was so funny.
So funny i almost fell over. Ignatius reminds me of a combination between Judah Smith and Karl Lentz
October 8th, 2009 at 5:07 am
Upon reading many of these comments I see much concern.
Jesus clearly states that the 10% tithe belongs to God, if you refuse to give it then you are stealing from God. Any spiritual led giving should be on top of your tithe, not instead of.
Who are you to judge? there is only 1 judge and that is God. God knows Wendell’s and Judah’s heart, and God will judge them accordingly.
I find it hard to understand how you can accuse people who have led thousands of people to salvation, of self gain.
I like the comment of one person saying this forum should be used to help and pray for each other, this is true; but instead it is used to judge. I suggest you evaluate your own heart and figure out why you have a problem with the biblical doctorine of tithing.
December 24th, 2009 at 1:24 am
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December 26th, 2009 at 1:37 am
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August 21st, 2010 at 6:22 pm
Wow, I just got done reading quite of bit of this post and the responses—best ever!