While digging around the internet this morning I found this article about Judah Smith. The article is about 1 year old but that doesn't make it any less interesting:
Here's the best quote:
"Camp totally changed my life," said Imani Lawson, 20. "Before it, I was like, 'Why am I going to camp? I'm a pre-med and Spanish major and my grades suck.' But I asked God about it and God totally spoke to me about my grades. He said, 'Just keep going to church, I'll take care of that.' " And he has, Lawson said. "School became so easy, I'm like, 'Wow, God.' "
Yes, Imani, why bother to face the realities of life when you can just go to camp and "give it all to God". Hey, maybe if God doesn't come through and fix your grades maybe you could have Judah make a phone call to your professor?
Imani, you are 20 years old, why are you still going to summer camp? Of course I should note that Judah Smith also promised this:
"If you go to camp and your life is not changed I will pay, personally, your way,".
Of course your life is going to change…
A few weeks earlier he had urged them to attend his three-day Bible camp, even if they didn't have the necessary $200, even it meant quitting jobs they'd worked all four years of college to attain. Rise from your seats, he urged the young people, and walk down to the stage to say you will go to camp.
…you just lost your damn job… and flunked out of school… but you still got your $200 bucks back.
The article ends with this quote:
"Go for it," he said, "and may the mojo be with you."
I think mojo is what makes you have great sex.
Mojo sex…sounds magical, literally.
When in doubt, check the Urban Dictionary.
That first pic – does anyone else think he looks like he just walked off the set of the ‘Queer Eye…’ – talking about ‘mojo’ – I’m just pointing out the obvious, people…
I was at a conference once where Jude F. decided it was cool to include the phrase “That’s the way, uh huh uh huh, I like it, uh huh uh huh” in his sermon and get all the kids to chant it back to him at various times. I felt like I was the only one who knew the true meaning of the old disco song and was genuinely embarrassed. I knew in that moment how Mugatu felt when he said, “I feel like I’m taking crazy pills!”
It’s one thing to be hip, it’s another to mistakenly(?) use sexual innuendo as a preaching tool. Sheesh!
Then again, if he can afford a $410,000 home on the Eastside, then maybe I should quit my job and become a youth pastor! I’m sure I could come up with my own vaguely sexual catchphrases that motivate kids to pay money to listen to me preach.
He does have a limp wrist.
No self-respecting gay man I’ve ever known would be caught dead in that outfit…..he looks like a bottle of kitchen cleanser with an attached yellow Brillo pad on top. It doesn’t say “metrosexual,”, it says “Formula 409″.
Cattiness aside, now for the content…..I still am completely floored by this weird ultra-capitalist spin on Christian faith. If lots of people are flocking to it, it must be the word of God, right? Now, I’m not saying that we all need to wear hair shirts and flog ourselves, but this whole slick, Starbucks-esque, packaging-based, mass-market driven product emanating from Mr. Smith has no ring of truth that I can detect. Is it hip? Well, sort of. Is it pretty? Well, if you like that sort of thing. Is it doing something? Well, it seems to be at least causing a stir. But, is there value in it? Are people more peaceful and kinder to each other because of it? Are people isolating themselves less and reaching out more? Is it really and truly something that anyone can be a part of without devoting themselves to a yuppie image and hours of learning the songs on the overhead (and probably the dance movements to the bridge of “Blessed be the name of the Lord”…..remember that? “The name of the Lord is…..a strong tower….”)? Is any of this truly about issues of the heart that Judah or anyone else is willing to leave between the individual heart and the workings of the Divine?
It looks to me like this “ministry” is all about the tangible products that come out of it….it’s about what people can see, and it exists only to sustain itself through what people see coming out of it. And for me, that is defined as “of the flesh,” to use the group lingo of choice, and it’s also in a sort of symbiotic, closed relationship with itself. I don’t think God is worried about who goes to camp. I don’t even think God is worried about who is drinking vodka (although driving around with an open bottle of vodka is an interesting choice for legal rather than spiritual reasons, it seems to me….maybe it wasn’t open, but it still sounds a little sketch, particularly if this young lady was specifically planning a evening of drinking to follow Judah’s sermon….girl, if church drives you to drink, I think you need to find a new church). The point of faith shouldn’t be to give God an opportunity to work with you, because God does what God wants with or without your assistance….it should be to give yourself an opportunity to be in contact with God by choice, which might not affect you in ways that look slick in an advertising campaign. I think Americans have a need to make God glamorous….and I just don’t think God cares about such things. I’m not saying it’s not possible, I’m just saying that I don’t see much precedent or much real use for or much substance in this kind of thing. There is no there there.
My parents were extremely poor attending B.T. and alot of it had to do with giving money they didn’t have. Then, when my dad couldn’t pay his tithes because he didn’t have a job we were outcasts. My dad left us and never came back.
I’m a strong Christian who values God over money. But I have three boys and Judah’s house costs more than I could make in 16 years. It isn’t fair.
I think Judah can shove his money up his you-know-what. I can deal with non-Christians who have lots of money because they don’t know better…but someone who calls himself a Christian who takes advantage of other Christians to make himself wealthy makes me sick.
I’m sure he’ll get his “reward” in Heaven but I don’t think it will be what he expects. It just might be a good kick in the pants.
I remember when that article was first published. GC camp is pushed big time.. that article isn’t an exaggeration. If you were a faithful GC’er and you weren’t going to camp.. something was wrong with you! The Holy Ghost needed to get up in you! I was a bad Christian so I never went to camp. I had a job. I remember watching the videos of the memorable moments at camp and honestly.. it looked like that old Nickelodeon classic Salute Your Shorts but without the cynicism, charm and Ug. It was three legged races, tug of wars, girls running around in one piece bathing suits since two pieces were of the devil and then there was the “powerful” moments that consisted of a bunch of junior high to college age kids pogoing like they were at a Green Day concert and a few clips of Pastor Judah, Jude F if he was there or Benny Perez sendin’ down the hip, too cool for school fire and brimstone. I bet you a lot of the church folk would answer any criticism of the camp experience like,”Well.. at least they aren’t shooting smack.”
Someone mentioned inappropriate things being said during sermons…
I remember Jude F. talking about giving the devil the middle finger. I almost died!
Is anyone disturbed by this quote from that article?
“They are prepared to listen to leaders — whether from the pulpit or the White House — in ways that their parents, the boomers, did not, and that is a very new phenomenon. They believe in security rather than radicalism, political order rather than social emancipation, collective responsibility rather than personal expression.”
Jordan,
“They are joiners,” and I just don’t think you can relate to “joiners”.
You see, you probably think for yourself and occationally may even use your mind. Why don’t you try “following” instead of “leading” for a change and see what happens. Maybe then you will understand the “Millennial Generation” and see why blindly following is what Christ wants you to do.
I think this calls for a song:
Bind them together, Lord,
Bind them together
With cords that cannot be broken.
Bind them together, Lord,
Bind them together, Lord,
Bind them together with tithes.
(And then throw them in the river.)
[Comment ID #8389 Will Be Quoted Here]
I think that it is sad that as Christians we write comments about other Christians in a way that tears down! The man is rich so what he is not putting a gun to anyone’s head making them pay, if you people actuall did your research you would see that he doesn’t make his money from the camps and the church (although he does get a salary) it comes from book sales and tape sales but that is right the rest of the world is being forced to buy them!! Rejoice in other peoples success, I don’t like the fact that sports stars make more then the president and most of them can’t read or write but hey they work hard and if they make a lot because of people like me going to the games watching then so be it!! I just think we need to be careful about how much we judge (check out John Bevere’s driven by eternity) !!!!!
Thank you Lance, I’m glad you know us so well.
How is it that Jonah is selling his books and tapes?
Did God sell copies of the scripture(s) to His people? Do you see anything annotated “Copyright God” or “Copyright Jesus – All rights reserved”?
The Bible STILL says “freely ye have received (from God), freely give (to others”. So, let me put that in perspective for you, Lance.
I have never met the author or song-writer who did not credit “God” with their books / songs. When complimented, they always seem to deflect any accolades to God as the inspiritation, even the GIVER of the words and music. “Give God the glory” they always say. Don’t they really mean “Give God the glory, but give ME the MONEY”?
As a songwriter myself, when faced with deciding whether or not to sell my CDs, it was a struggle at first because it seems like every body else is selling their stuff. But there came a moment of true clarity when I remembered that the songs I’ve written, were songs I asked God to GIVE ME for the express purpose of blessing the body of Christ. And God, as the source of inspiration that He is, did indeed GIVE ME songs just as I asked.
Since I told God the songs were to bless the body of Christ, how then can I turn around and sell them to the body of Christ? Doesn’t that make what I told God a lie? Isn’t that trying to deceive God?
Recently, I talked by my recent friend Sean Deitrich (a fellow musician who gives his CDs away) about it – and we concluded that if you have to pay for “truth” it must not be so good. You see, paying for something equals “buy in” – and if you pay for something, you have an expectation that it will satisfy you or make you “feel good” about the exchange of money for a product or service. That said, the author of said material as a seller gears his warez for a target market and makes it palatable / non-offensive to facilitate sales. Consequently, the influence of money waters-down and even corrupts the truth.
I know of many musicians who are giving away their music now, and some of the best books and articles I’ve read in recent years, are free through the internet.
People who sell what God gave them for free aren’t the kind of people you want to listen to, much less give money to.
“Blessed are the poor, for theirs is the kingdom of God….” “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of the needle, than it is for a rich man to enter heaven…”
[Comment ID #8421 Will Be Quoted Here]
This is one of the most terrifying things I have ever read. Ever.
Sadly, I think it is symptomatic of much of our culture, not just CBC or conservative Christianity. There are a great many Americans willing to trade liberty, and even justice for comfort. Tying that attitude into evangelism is just saavy marketing.
[Comment ID #8540 Will Be Quoted Here]
Blah – Blah – Blah – so why do pastors even receieve a salary? I know plenty of people who purchase these products and many more for resources.
May I remind you, even Billy Graham sells his materials. Stop judging Judah and play in your own world.
This is our own world…
Blah – Blah – Blah – to you too.
Your answer seems to be “it’s OK because Billy Graham does it” or “everybody else does it, why shouldn’t Jonah?”
Can you tell me why your example cites Billy Graham (and other men), but not Jesus? Why say “Billy does it” instead of “Jesus did NOT do it”? Could it be men are more concerned with conformity and the approval of other men, than with the teachings of Jesus? Seems like the example a godly man would cite is Jesus example, as in “it’s NOT OK because Jesus did NOT do it”.
You see, I can not reconcile that action, with what Jesus taught and did. In as much as this culture is concerned with “WWJD” (What Would Jesus DO), I just can’t understand how people can be so blind to Jesus GIVING away everything He had to give, while they sell what God gives. If they really intended to “WWJD”, wouldn’t the give away what they have like Jesus did?
Care to address Jesus example and teaching? I could give a rip about Billy Graham.
[Comment ID #8725 Will Be Quoted Here]
Okay, great point, but I dont agree with you yet. I understood Jesus gave everything away that he had, and yes I would like to receive the resources with no charge but where is the line drawn? How do you determine what original thought is vs. God’s thought? If its God’s thought do we not sell it – because it is not our own? It its original thought, is it okay to sell it? Even as a pastor? There just seems to be so much criticism on these boards towards Judah.
I understand that Judah does not make his salary off of resource sales, more like spending money. But if you put some practical, original thought into a resource and couple it with God’s word then I just dont see anything wrong with making a profit. Im quite sure most of his money comes from speaking engagements. Should he not be “taken care of” either when he is traveling, away from home speaking at a camp, retreat, ect.?
Oh and thanks for reminding me who the example is!
Thanks for your thoughtful response, PGABound10.
The decision whether or not to sell what the Lord gives us is difficult. The easiest solution is to do what everyone else seems to do, and that is to find a publisher and make the media available through established for-profit distribution channels.
But what of Jesus example and command to give freely? What of Jesus word “if you love me, you will obey my commands”? What is the author’s objective – to teach and encourage the Body of Christ or make money, or both? It can be a terrible thing to examine one’s own heart in the light of God’s word.
For me, examining my heart, has led to some difficult questions that go far beyond money. For example, why does the Father give us His word? Presumably it is to teach, encourage and grow the Body of Christ, and pave the way for more of God’s spirit for believers, and for salvation for the lost. Now IF I claim to love God and IF my heart’s desire is to see the God’s will done on the earth (“thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven”), how do I play into that? Would I let money influence me, or would I let a desire for fame or notariety get in the way of seeing God’s will done?
Obviously, I can’t even approach Jesus example – but what about Paul? A man who implied he’d rather die than accept money from anyone for the gospel – who worked a ‘day job’ rather than take money from the people he ministered to ‘by night’. He did not want to hinder the gospel by taking money, and so like Jesus Paul offered it for free. Were Paul’s words an ‘absolute’, i.e., does money hinder the gospel? And if I truly want to see the gospel spread, would I allow anything to hinder it?
I have some experience in that area – several years ago, I wrote an article on tithing. I released it to one of the prophetic e-mail lists, and within a day, had maybe 100 emails, and several requests to re-distribute the article via other e-lists and web sites. The Holy Spirit prompted me to say “yes” to all re-print requests. Within a few months, the article was on 40 or more web sites, I’d heard from hundreds of people, and it even started showing up on BBSs, blogs, and translated into foreign languages. What the Father showed me about that, tied into the fishes and loaves princple. The Father had given me some spiritual food, which I blessed, broke, and gave back to the body, and the Father multiplied it like wild-fire. And I was blessed to receive hundreds of e-mail testimonials of how the Holy Spirit was confirming the word to readers, and how they were being set free from the tithe lie.
I do firmly believe, had I done what several people advised and folded the series of tithe articles into a book and sold it, that the word would not have had the power or influence it has as a FREE word.
In the years since, as the Father has provided for me by means that have nothing to do with my articles and music CDs, I have been blessed to meet thousands of brothers and sisters who have in turn encouraged me with their testimonies and friendship. Money has NEVER changed hands. I am however very very rich in the treasures moth and rust do not destroy, and I am certain that the ‘quality of my work’ will withstand the fires of testing on the day of the Lord – for I have invested in people for the Father, not in people for profit.
I know this could sound like boasting – it is not my intent at all. There is nothing I want more than to see the Father send a deluge of the Holy Spirit to this world – to wash away everything built on sand – and to turn everyone to the Father. I was once empty and praying to die. He filled me up, and I want what I have for everyone. I don’t want money, ego, fame, or any other desire of the flesh, or device of the devil to get in the way.
And so for me, it came down to choosing how it is I wanted to be paid for doing the work the Father set before me. I don’t want money or any of that stuff. I just want people to have what He has given me, and I want to hear Him say on the day of the Lord “well done”. I do not want to sell out people, or hearing Him say “well done”, for money or notariety in this life.
Hope that makes sense, and that you can discern my heart in the matter, where my words have failed.
Jack
Well. Judah Smith and The City Church… Hmm…They obviously got all of YOUR attention. Go ahead and be the David Letterman. They’ll be the ones actually making a change for the better.
What a great compliment! We all thank you! I absolutely love David Letterman! You did it guys…you made the world take notice and fooled some into taking your blog seriously. Congratulations!
Thank you for that. So Can I read the article on tithing?
Yes, of course. That’s why I linked them.
pgabound10,
The Father gave me some more clarity on the issue of pay, as I continued to meditate on it.
It seems to boil down to a simple question: “How do I want to be rewarded (paid) for doing the Father’s work?”
Scripture suggests that we can be paid in this life, or in the next (Matthew 6:1-16). But most apparently want it both ways – desiring money in this life, and their heavenly reward in the next. But – if a person serves the gospel for money in this life, and for heavenly reward in the next, aren’t they ultimately testing the scripture which says:
Matthew 6:24 EMTV “No one is able to serve two masters; for either he will hate the one, and he will love the other, or else he will be devoted to the one, and he will despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.”
If the servant is wholly devoted to God and to seeing God’s will accomplished in the earth, the servant is free to say exactly what the Father gives the servant to say. But IF the servant is concerned with making money from what God says, then he is effectively serving money by watering-down that which God has to say so that the people will buy it, or creating a mixture of God’s word and worldly wisdom (his own thoughts) to make it more palatable.
The scripture in Matthew 6:1-16 suggests we can have it one way or other, but not both.
Any thoughts?
Jack
Hi,
First: to correct a rather important quote from a couple posts back (by oinvu4uraqt). Mathew 5:3 actually reads “blessed are the poor in spirit…” I think it’s a bit misleading to leave off the “in spirit” bit.
Second, if anyone is truly interested in the Pastor Wedell Smith’s teachings on prosperity, I would reccommend borrowing or buying a copy of “Prosperity with a Purpose.” The “getting” portion of the book is really pretty slim. The meat of the writing is a study of prosperity related passages in the bible, and then a fairly good chunk of writing on what happens if you use your powers for evil(that’s humor people, laugh it off).
Now, my personal take on the prosperity of pastors in general (not specifically at the City Church). My grandfather was a minister, serving very small churchs for a large denomination in Washington. The family was basically dirt poor growing up. In one town, they showed up and the parsonage didn’t have an indoor toilet. My grandmother said she didn’t have a problem with it if the members of the congregation lived in the same conditions… apparently plumbing was installed shortly thereafter. I won’t try to make a call on what constitutes appropriate prosperity for a pastor (this car, that car, this house etc.) but off the top of my head I recall scriptures saying that the ox should not be muzzled as it treads the grain and that leaders are due a double portion.
Regarding Mathew 6:1-4. I think that is specifically refering to tithing and offerings. Meaning if you’ve paraded around the front of the sanctuary and placed your check on the overhead projector for everyone to see, then you’ll reap neither the temporal rewards promised in Malachi 3:10, Deuteronomy 28:2, Proverbs 19:17, Romans 8:32 (the list goes on) nor the heavenly rewards of Mathew 6:20. And of course Luke 6:38 (shaken up, pressed down and overflowing) applys to giving and receiving of either type.
So here’s my question; if, per the scripture, you are seeking first the kingdom of God, and all of these things (eat, drink, clothes) are being added unto you, then where in the Bible does it say there is a cut-off point?
Disclosure: I’ve recently moved to Seattle, and though not a member of the City Church, I do attend there regularly and intend to become a member in the near future.
May God bless each of you,
Derek
PS Jack, I’ve just read your article on tithing, and though I’m definitely not a theologian, I was disturbed by several of your scriptural interpretations (not that that’s necessarily a bad thing). I’ll drop a note on your personal website for further discussion.
Isn’t it great that a (somewhat and occassionally) thoughtfully considered discussion could come from a website originally intended to mock?
Thanks for the comment, Derek.
God uses all things for good. Even sinners like me.
Derek said:
You’re right – being disturbed isn’t always a bad thing … and to be honest, with that 1st article on the tithe (there’s now 6 of them), the interpretations disturbed my flesh, too.
That article ( To Tithe Or Not To Tithe: The $earch For Truth ) marked the beginning of my deprogramming from the religious institution of man; as you can see by the opening remarks in the article, my view of the tithe was that it is mandatory, and my view of God was that He would manipulate people who did not tithe, with guilt.
And so, it was with much fasting and prayer and praying in the Spirit that the tithe article series came about; of being led by the Holy Spirit, verse by verse, sometimes backing up and reading whole books or chapters to get the correct cultural and historical context, or delving into the Greek through the Strong’s KJV/Greek reference Bible.
For example, the scripture you cited “muzzle the ox, while treading out the grain” – that is one often cited in support of the tithe, but what is it about, really? Food. Eating.
Understood in historical and cultural context of Jesus time, and the early Acts 2-4 church, they got together, and ate. And so Jesus, and the apostles got to eat the food set before them. But no one was building them buildings, setting up a payroll for them, cars, insurance, or 401k’s. Their sole entitlement, for doing the work of the gospel, was a seat at the common meal, and if in a strange town, a place to sleep at a ‘worthy’ believer’s house while going about the work of the gospel.
Read 1 Corinthians 9 in entirety. Note verse 4, which precedes Paul’s use of the ‘muzzle the ox’ metaphor. Vs. 4 says: “Don’t we (apostles) have the right to eat and drink”? The setup for what follows therefore, is about food.
Often, 1 Corinthians 9:14 is twisted to support the tithe or other giving. Commonly, it is interpreted (from the Greek):
1 Corinthians 9:14 ISV In the same way, the Lord has ordered that those who proclaim the gospel should make their living from the gospel.
One of the things the Spirit showed me from that scripture, while studying the Greek, is a subtle twist that the translators put on that scripture, by turning the Greek for “to live” into a “living” … in other words, they turned a VERB into a NOUN. And where our culture has an understanding of “living” as a wage/paycheck, most people think that scripture justifies paying gospel workers with money.
But consider all that Paul had to deal with in the Church at Corinth. Fighting, drunken-ness, carnal-nature, idol-worshipping women converted to Jesus who were disruptive, false apostles trying to discredit Paul, false brothers who were promoting circumcision, etc.
And so, in that context, Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians 9:14, make more sense as “the Lord has ordered that those who proclaim the gospel should live the gospel, and therefrom eat”. Where the Gospel message is community, sharing, sacrifice, giving, the apostle is to model those behaviors, NOT JUST PREACH THEM, and by teaching through example, the apostle will be fed by others AS THEY FOLLOW HIS EXAMPLE.
The scripture is not a set up for charging money for the gospel, the scripture is an exhortation to actually do what the gospel says, and therefrom share in the blessing of sharing and community.
I hope you’ll read all 6 articles, Derek. Admittedly, they are uncomfortable to read, but only because they are in opposition to common religious teachings of men, with institutions to support and uphold.
Going through all of this, I often asked myself a simple question as a ‘sanity check’:
“Can I picture Jesus as the pastor of City Church and continuing to operate City Church in the way it is being run by Wendell Smith and Co.?”
(Of course for me, it wasn’t City Church and Wendell Smith – nevertheless, the basic question proved a good sanity check for what was happening to me in the transition from being a slave to religion to being a Son of God).
Blessings! Jack
Jack,
I guess my next two questions are for clarification then.
1) If the references to food are strictly to be intrepreted to mean physcial sustenance, what is the significance of communion? (not being flippant, a serious question so I can understand where you’re coming from)
2) What’s your take on my thoughts regarding Mathew 6:1-4 and the other scriptures I mentioned above?
—Regarding Mathew 6:1-4. I think that is specifically refering to tithing
—and offerings. Meaning if you’ve paraded around the front of the
—sanctuary and placed your check on the overhead projector for
—everyone to see, then you’ll reap neither the temporal rewards
—promised in Malachi 3:10, Deuteronomy 28:2, Proverbs 19:17, Romans
—8:32 (the list goes on) nor the heavenly rewards of Mathew 6:20. And
—of course Luke 6:38 (shaken up, pressed down and overflowing) applys
—to giving and receiving of either type.
Regarding your final question, of course things would be different if Jesus were personally running any single “church” here on earth. He’s God, we’re not. I applaud the way City Church is run, near as I can tell they’ve made a darn good attempt at running a New Testament church as it was blue-printed in the scripture. I see large sums flowing in and large sums flowing out. I see a dedicated staff in place so that Pastors can pastor. I see a vibrant youth and young adult program that doesn’t hesitate to say “This is what we believe is right.” (and that, to me, is vital. Whatever else is claimed, scripture is not wishy-washy. Revelation 3:16 “Because you are lukewarm – neither hot nor cold -I am about to spit you out of my mouth”) and I personally volunteer with the Foodbank ministry where I see a daily gathering of truckloads of food, distributed throughout the Redmond/Kirkland area and also passed along to ministries 4-5 hours away that don’t have an urban center to draw on for donations.
Sorry, a couple other questions for you. What does “home-church” mean? Is that sort of like home-school where you have a co-op kind of setup with other believers and you all worship together? Do you rotate volunteers through the leadership/coordination positions?
God Bless,
Derek
Hi Derek,
Let me first answer your question with a question; should the Bible ever be “liberally” interpreted, as opposed to “strictly” interpreted in the cultural/historical context in which it was written? I mean, why do we assume for example that our culture is good (the ‘American way / dream’) and that the Bible is to be interpreted within the context of our culture? It seems like a ‘strict interpretation’ of scripture holds our culture accountable to the Bible, whereas a ‘liberal interpretation’ of scripture holds the Bible accountable to our culture.
Rather than just assume our culture is good / right and then liberally re-interpret the Bible to suit our culture, why wouldn’t we judge our materialism, love of money, corporate enslavement, etc., as wicked according to scripture?
Culturally / historically, the Hebrews / Israelites, were an agricultural people – raising flocks, herds, fruits and grains. Others had simple trade skills – like carpenter, fisherman, etc. God’s basic command to them, and for us, is the same as given to Adam: ‘go forth and multiply’ … and so our needs as far as God is concerned for His purpose, are food and clothing for us, sun and rain for crops, keeping the locust (etc.) from devouring crops, and protecting us from enemies who would otherwise kill or enslave us, thereby subjugating God’s command to multiply (make God a family / people).
Personally, I think it is error to interpret the Bible (scripture) in context of our culture (materialism, et al). We do not have need of all the stuff we claim to have need of. Most of what we claim we need, is really a want. The system of buying and selling, etc., really are elements of Babylon, which according to scripture is wicked, and scheduled for destruction.
…
As for ‘communion’ – hard to address that since I don’t know what your mindset is concerning communion. Mine has undergone radical change in recent years, from the idea of communion as a 0.375+/-.010″ cube of Wonder bread and 1/4 Oz. of Welches grape juice, to an understanding of the “Love Feast” as spoken of by Jude 1:12. Once again, the ‘communion’ or ‘Lord’s Supper’, in historical and cultural context of the Hebrew / Israelite people, was a traditional Passover meal, consisting of roast lamb, wine, bread, bitter herbs, etc., of which the people ate their fill. It is a traditional meal, celebrated with singing, readings, remembrances of God past, and looking to salvation, symbolic of the “hidden bread” (aka the ‘afikomen’). Suggest you Google “passover seder” or “afikomen” to get a more traditional view of “communion”.
My personal view is, when Jesus said “as often as you do this, remember me”, He meant – every time the Body gets together to eat and fellowship (i.e., love feast), to lift Him up in our conversation – to remember what He did – to acknowledge that for those millenia while the Hebrews were celebrating the passover meal, with the symbolic “hidden bread” (afikomen), they were doing a prophetic enactment of the coming Messiah, who would be broken, wrapped in a cloth, and laid in a tomb, and later found by His people.
Communion does not have to be served by someone ordained, or in any official capacity. Communion happens every time believers get together and break bread and lift up Jesus.
Matthew 6:1-4 – is about alms for the poor – and has nothing to do with the tithe. Alms for the poor are best given directly to the poor. As I saw so many times in the churches I once attended, they are great at collecting money for the poor, and full of excuses when it comes to distributing to the poor. Get ahold of an annual report, and work out the percentage of the bottom line given to the poor. I’ll bet most churches give less than 5% to the poor. You’re better off giving directly to the poor, discretely, anonymously.
Culturally and historically speaking Malachi 3:10 is talking about RAIN where it says “I will open the flood gates of heaven”. Israel was an agricultural community. Drought was often seen as punishment / judgment, and rain as blessing. I live in the corn belt now and have seen a few drought years. Believe me when I tell you farmers view RAIN as a blessing.
The historical and cultural context of Deuteronomy 28 is food and protection from enemies – pursuant to that original command of God: go forth and multiply. Why not read the scripture in context to see what “all THESE BLESSINGS” are?
Proverbs 19:17 – why do we assume that the ‘return’ on what we ‘lend to the Lord’ is something that we want? Doesn’t the Lord choose how we are rewarded for our acts of kindness to the poor, widows and orphans? Why would the Lord reward us with the things that “moth and rust” destroy, when He Himself exhorted us to invest in spiritual wealth. If we give to the poor with expectation of material payback from God, do we understand that we are opting for our reward in this life at the expense of our reward in the next? To be honest, I don’t get the “lend to the poor” thing – why the word “lend”? It isn’t like the poor are going to pay us back. So perhaps it speaks to the poor belonging to God, to God accepting responsibility for the poor, so when we provide for them, we are acting on God’s behalf? It’s kinda like God says “I owe you one, pardner”.
Romans 8:32 likens us to Christ and says “shall He not also give us all things”? Since the scripture likens us to Christ and says God will give us ALSO that which He gave Christ, why don’t we ask what God gave Christ while on earth? Those were: family, friends, freedom, wisdom, the Holy Spirit, peace, love, etc. God didn’t give Jesus money, cars, homes, etc. Jesus went without that. So why are we asking God to give us, that which He didn’t even give His only begotten son?
Luke 6:38 – the context is “do not judge”, “do not condemn”, show mercy. That is what you will receive back “pressed down, shaken together, overflowing” if you give the same. Where’s money in that?
…
I admire your food bank work. My mom did that for years, and I loved helping her on occasion. When my gospel band did concerts in the greater Seattle area through out the late 70′s and early 80′s, we routinely asked the people coming to the concerts to bring a can of food as the price of admission, which we left for the host church to give to the local food bank. All free-will offerings went to the food bank. That was a real joy to see.
…
House / home church. Just a ‘catch phrase’. There’s about a dozen references to worshipping / gathering in believers homes in the NT, and not one scripture about meeting in an dedicated church building, building funds, etc. And so there is a movement of people who feel that because they left the institutional / denominational church and now meet with believers in homes, (or home churches), that they are scripturally correct.
I think it’s silly to put the emphasis on where you meet. It’s who you meet that is important. See Where Do You Go To Church if you’re interested.
Sorry this is so long … you asked
… IF a person’s view is that scripture is to be adapted / reinterpreted for our times and culture, then everything I said is crap. However, that would subject scripture to our culture, and I believe that is wrong. It should be the other way around.
Go Dawgs! TTYL, Derek!
Jack
john444,
Much of what you have said has troubled me. Not because I am offended, but I am worried that your views may be warped by a fear of money. So much of the church is afraid of money. While I do agree with a few points you made in your article about giving to the poor and the fact that the church is the people who worship and not the place of worship, I must say that I disagree with most of your interpretations of the scriptures.
First and foremost is the fact that you know little to nothing about Pastor Judah Smith, who is an incredible man of God. You do not know that the house he owns he did not pay for all of, but thanks to a generous donation from a wealthier follower of Christ he was able to purchase the house. Secondly, you do not know that his house is almost always open to kids from his ministry to come over and hang out and learn from his example of the way that he lives. You do not know Pastor Judah, yet you judge him as someone who is in it for the money.
You do not know that while in high school, he demanded after his second year at a private Christian high school that his parents let him transfer to a public high school, where he was an outcast and preached the gospel to the students of that high school, and by the time he graduated saw doezens of his peers come to know the truth of Jesus Christ. Was he driven by money then too?
I still fail to comprehend this doctrine that just because one is a preacher of the gospel, he must be poor. Numerous times throughout the text God speaks of His desire to BLESS His children, not a desire for them to be poor and constantly in need. God says many times that He desires His people to PROSPER. While prosperity is not exclusive to money (ie. fruit of the spirit, gifts of the spirit, etc.), finances is a large part of prosperity.
There are numerous biblical examples of God’s chosen people being very prosperous. If you look at what the bible says Abraham had, he was probably one of the richest men to ever live. God commanded Moses and the children of Israel to take whatever they desired from the Egyptians on their way out. Throughout my reading of the scriptures, I find that God desires that His people be BLESSED and PROSPEROUS, not poor and constantly in need. I find that we, as people though, are often afraid of this prosperity.
I find the clincher to be Mark 10:17-31. It begins with Jesus counseling the rich young ruler who had kept the law since the days of his youth, but was unwilling to give all that he had to follow Jesus. Something we often overlook is what it says in verse 21, right before Jesus told him to leave all that he had to follow Him. The scripture says, “Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him..” Jesus looked at him and LOVED him, hence the reason he told the rich young ruler to leave all and follow him. The rich young ruler TRUSTED in his possessions and so long as he had them, he would not be able to fully trust God and inherit the blessing Jesus promised later in Mark 10:29-30.
Later on in the chapter (the Bible indicates no time lapse, but that this was in the same situation), after Jesus had said that it was harder for those who TRUSTED in riches to enter the kingdom of God, Jesus said in Mark 10:29-30, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel’s, 30 who shall not receive a hundredfold now IN THIS TIME – houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, WITH PERSECUTIONS – and in the age to come, eternal life.” Jesus promised these blessings IN THIS TIME and in heaven, not just in heaven. I also want to note that He said WITH PERSECUTIONS. This one, in my mind, seals the deal. Pastor Judah may have a comfortable home and a comfortable life, but his teaching has many people, Christian and non-Christian, up in arms because of his call to a passionate following of Christ, one that the believer gives ALL that he has for the purposes of the kingdom of God, just as the Bible indicates the beliver should and as you rightly say the believer should.
I do not go to GC in Seattle, but I go to an affiliated church in San Diego and have had the opportunity to hear Pastor Judah Smith on many occasions here in San Diego and in Seattle. He is a very powerful, very anointed man of God and I have nothing but the utmost respect for him and his ministry, as I have seen first hand the fruit of it. When you see the way that he is able to really connect with this generation (of which only 4% is a practicing Christian), you realize that he is one of many powerful youth pastors God is raising up as a standard for this generation. I have had many opportunities to hang out with Pastor Judah and have discussions with him, and I can tell you that he is a man who lives up to his preaching. The lifestyle he lives is an incredible example to young people like myself (I am only 18) and he practices what he preaches to the utmost. Like the way that last December, when he was down here, he took me and 20 other interns at our church (who are all relying on God’s miraculous provision at this time in out lives to pay the bills) who were hanging out with him one night to the premiere of The Chronicles of Narnia and paid for us ALL. That is the man behind the preaching.
I can’t help you see, Timothy. Suffice it to say, that the example most self-proclaimed men of God claim to follow is Jesus, who had no money, no home, no retirement, no corner office. No – like the loaves and fishes miracle demonstrated, Jesus (AS PRIEST) took the humble offering of a follower, thanked the Father for it, broke it, and then gave it right back (100%) to the people who gave it. And the Father blessed and multiplied it. Jesus, THE PRIESTLY EXAMPLE, didn’t keep anything for Himself, though He was entitled. So why do PRIESTS today not give thanks for an offering, break it, and send it back out to the people who gave it?
Paul who understood Jesus EXAMPLE, did the same. He refused to keep anything for himself, though he (Paul) was entitled. We know Paul had a day job for the money/material things he needed. And Paul exhorted those in ministry to “be like me”; i.e., get a day job, and refuse to accept money for the gospel, and thereby hinder the gospel by money.
I’d have been impressed IF Jonah had taken that gift he used to buy his house, and gave it to the poor and hungry – as that would have been following Jesus (and Paul’s) EXAMPLE.
As for preaching in high school – is that really what we’re called to do? Put up a soap box in the locker room and preach? I’ve always wondered at guys like that – for the Bible says in 1 Peter 3:15
“… and be always prepared to give an answer to every one that asks you to give an account of the hope that is in you, but with meekness and fear;” (1 Peter 3:15 Darby)
And so there is a Biblical order to testifying. First, simply let the joy / love of Christ shine through you that others may see it. Second, when others see that joy / love in you, and ASK you about it, THEN answer them, with MEEKNESS and FEAR (respect / reverence). So, in light of that scripture, how is the ‘soapbox’ approach in the lockerroom in meekness and fear, how is it in response to being ASKED to give an acocunt? Seems to me it’s more to do with ramming religion down people’s throats.
The ‘ramming religion down people’s throats’ is the modus operandi of the Pharisees, Scribes and Teachers of the Law, who scour the world in search of a convert, and thereby make sons of hell of them through their religious teachings. (Matthew 23:15). As you may recall, Jesus scolded them most severely (Matthew 23).
Note – I’ve listened online to some of Jonah’s preaching. I often find it nauseating. The last one I listened to – a week ago – he was teaching from a 1400 page manual – your basic “how to be a Christian” manual. Good Lord: “turn to page 1400 of your ‘How To Be a Good Christian’ manual”. Barf!
And that’s where he lost me – and I wish he would lose ALL of his blind followers. How on earth can anyone be taught to be a Christian? I thought being a Christian was all about being filled with Jesus Christ via the Holy Spirit, where sripture says that the True Sons of God are the ones who follow the Spirit? It isn’t a person’s learned / modified behavior that makes them a Christian, it’s being In Christ and Christ being in them. Jonah has kids thinking that they are saved by their behavior – by their doctrine – by their tithes and offerings – by following THE MANUAL! And therein, Jonah is making SONS OF HELL of them.
The man who thinks he can teach someone to be a Christian is a fool, and does NOT know the gospel.
Lastly, concerning the passage you cited – Mark 10:29-30, what makes you think that the payback is in worldly riches, for example, the man who gives up 1 child, will he get 100 children back? Why don’t you relate that to the other scripture, where Jesus told you to lay up treasures in heaven which month and rust do not destroy? What are the treasures of Heaven? The presence of the Lord! Wisdom! Knowlege! Fullness of the Spirit! It doesn’t mean “give up one wife and get 100 in return IN THIS LIFE”. Jesus says “MY WORDS ARE SPIRIT” (John 6:63) – why not look at what Jesus said therefore with SPIRITUAL eyes/mind?
Anyhow – I wish Jonah good luck with his camel.
Jack
Jack, it really pains me to think you actually believe there is some sort of 1400 page manual for living as a Christian. It was sarcasm.
He is in fact teaching how to be a disciple and lead others to be disciples. The manual he uses (though primarily referring to the Bible) is called “5b.”
It is a small (4×6) 70 page book designed to help new Christians during the first 5 weeks of their faith. The first step? Repent, be baptized in Jesus Name and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This comes from Acts 2:38. Which, by the way, was Paul giving the first sermon to the New Testament Church… to a crowd of at least 3,000. Meek does not mean fear of the world or fear of confrontation. Meek means trained to follow the commands of one’s master. Warhorses were considered meek, Jack, because they followed their master’s commands into battle, even though an untrained horse would have fled at the first sound of fighting.
I tried to read your “tithing” letters Jack, but just couldn’t do it, primarily because I found them so frustrating. As I read, it seemed like every one of the scripture quotations was misinterpreted in some way so as to support your “no-tithing” doctrine (an exageration I’m sure, but in my frustration, that’s how it felt). You have gone so far to the other extreme that you appear to believe that there is absolutely nothing in the Bible about Christians receiving God’s abundance here on earth. Jack, if the Bible is to be only interpreted literally, how then can we stop tithing? Didn’t Jesus say that nothing would be removed from the law? If that’s the case then you are required to tithe. Period. If your church is a house-church with only 5 members, then the 5 of you should be tithing (and that is in addition to offerings and alms). If you believe it should only be food, then so be it. Perhaps you can donate it to a local homeless shelter, but the Bible says, “Tithe.â€
Jack, God wants to provide for us and he wants to do so abundantly. Anyone who believes that the Bible is only referring to earthly abundance is incorrect, but so also is anyone who believes in abundance all things EXCEPT earthly abundance. Will there be seasons of drought? Most likely (look at Job as an example, he lost everything but received back even more than he had lost. Yes that’s right; in addition to everything else, Job is also a book about prosperity).
I’m not going to continue reading or responding to this website, for a couple of reasons. First off, it seems to me that in doing so, I appear to condone taking Church business outside the Church. Second, I’ve come to realize that my own attempts to open your eyes will most likely come to naught and so this time spent typing on the internet would be better spent praying for you that God, Jehovah Jireh, would open your eyes and heart to receive the blessing that he has for you.
May God truly bless you Jack; I know that you have a heart for ministry and gifting. I hope and pray that you will open it to receive the abundance of God so that as he blesses you with funds, your ministry can be blessed and multiplied.
Timothy, I would advise you to speak with your Pastors before you continue posting on this site.
Blessings on you in the Name of Jesus,
Derek
(sorry, one more thing… I’m human so it’s allowed)
In a previous post Jack, you said there was nothing about the early Church meeting in dedicated buildings… How can you say that in light of Acts 2:46-47 which states that in addition to “breaking bread from house to house” they met “daily with one accord in the temple?”
The difference is simple, Derek. One can interpret the scriptures based on tradition, religion, institutionalism, culture, self-will, etc., OR, one can interpret them according to the teaching and leading of the Holy Spirit (see 1 John 2:27). Stick to the latter method. The Holy Spirit will always steer you right.
As for Jonah discipling people, please study Matthew 28:19. It says we are to make disciples (introduce people to Jesus through our living witness) through baptism, NOT that we are to disciple them. Once made disciples, the job of “discipling” belongs to the Holy Spirit (1 John 2:27).
Regarding frustration, have you ever read:
Creation was subjected to frustration but not by its own choice. The one who subjected it to frustration did so in the hope that it would also be set free from slavery to decay in order to share the glorious freedom that the children of God will have. (Romans 8:20-21 GW)
Frustration is the path to freedom, Derek. Don’t turn back just because your flesh is frustrated by the truth about the tithe lie being spread by the institutional church.
May you be blessed with truth, as well.
Jack
You quote that passage without understanding the context, my friend.
Ouch. Sure you want to try to make it to Heaven by doing everything in the Law? The obvious implication is that we can’t do that, and Christ came to fulfill the Law by becoming sin for us.
One could easily replace “circumcision” with “tithing” here. Paul’s point was that Christianity is not about observing the Law to establish our faith or be “good Christians” (but then again Paul believes this term to be an oxymoron if you read Romans 7 and 1 Tim. 1:15) it’s about expressing your faith in love. In the context of giving, tithing is the Law, and we are no longer under the Law if we live by the Spirit.
I’ll echo Jack’s sentiments here: your frustration is a good sign that you are able to question this at all, rather than just writing it off. A willingness to question is a good way to find the truth for yourself. Jack’s comments (and hopefully mine too) on tithing aren’t motivated by selfish gain, but out of a love for the Body of Christ. We’d rather see the church motivated by love rather than by the Law when it comes to giving.
Easy.
The temple was Jewish, wasn’t it? Do you know about the history of “the Way” then? That for a very brief time (Acts 2-6), Judaism and ‘the Way’ shared the temple, co-mingled, if you will?
But, there arose a great persecution – at the time that Stephen was stoned to death. And when that persecution broke out, the believers were driven from the temple, into hiding. See the story of Stephen in Acts 6-7. Then see Acts 8:1 concerning the persecution.
Now, consider what the early church was doing in Acts 2-4, in light of Matthew 28:18-20 (?) – the ‘Great Commission’ – Jesus told them to GO OUT INTO ALL THE WORLD. Were they obeying Jesus by huddling together in the temple? Could it be that Acts 2-4 is not an example of how ‘The Way’ – or the early Church – should meet – but rather – is a record of their disobedience to Jesus command “GO OUT INTO ALL THE WORLD”? What did the Father have to DO to get the early Church OFF their behinds and OUT INTO THE WORLD? He let the persecution come upon them, which according to Acts 8:1 had the desired effect of SCATTERING them throughout the world.
So, in context not only of the brief passage you quoted, consider the words of Stephen in Acts 7:48 concerning the Temple:
Howbeit the most High dwelleth NOT in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, (Acts 7:48 KJV)
Interesting to note what Paul says, 10 chapters later. You see, as the robes were laid at Paul’s feet, while the crowds stoned Stephen, I can only imagine the deep, and lasting effect that “angelic face” of Stephen, and his words “Father, forgive them”, had upon Paul. I have to believe it all haunted Paul. There Paul was, a jew, protecting the Temple and Judaism – the law – the system. Yet for all Paul’s knowledge and zeal, he did NOT know the joy and the Spirit of God that Stephen knew. Paul tried to snuff out that joy, and Spirit, in favor of the Temple and the Law and the Religious System. Not sure, but Paul may have still been alive, when that very Temple was destroyed by Titus in 70 AD.
Years later, after being confronted on the Road to Damascus, being struck blind by the Spirit of the Lord, for the blind man that Paul really was, after being humbled by the Spirit, and shown that the teachings of man were foolishness, and that only knowing Christ mattered, a broken and humbled Paul repeated the words uttered by Timothy, for which Timothy was murdered:
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth NOT in temples made with hands; (Acts 17:24 KJV)
Talk about repentence! Talk about a confession!
And please, don’t try to play word games with me. My words were very specific: what dedicated religious facility did the church ever build in the NT? My comments were specific to the building fund / drive madness that grips most churches.
At who’s feet have you laid your cloak to stone me, Derek?
Jack
Derek, if that’s really your take on Jesus and the law, where do you get your animals for your annual burnt offerings at the temple and how do you keep PETA from picketing your house?
Forgive an old man
… I meant Stephen, not Timothy. Got carried away by the Spirit, there, I guess. 
++As for Jonah discipling people, please study Matthew 28:19. It says we are to make disciples (introduce people to Jesus through our living witness) through baptism, NOT that we are to disciple them. Once made disciples, the job of “discipling†belongs to the Holy Spirit (1 John 2:27).++
I dont necessarily agree – The Greek verb translated GO is actually not a command but a present participle (going). The only command in the entire Great Commission is “make disciples”. Jesus said, “While your GOING, make disciples of all nations.” No matter where we are, we should be witnesses for Jesus and seek to win others to Him (Acts 11:19-21).
The term “disciples” was the most popular name for the early believers. The word ‘apprentice’ is actually a more accurate term or equivalent term. A disciple attached himself to a teacher, identified with him, learned from him, not simply by listening but also by doing. Jesus called twelve disciples and taught them so that they might be able to teach others (Mark 3:13).
A disciple, then, is one who has believed on Jesus Christ and expressed this faith by being baptized. He remains in the church so that he might be taught the truths of the faith (Acts 2:41-47). He is then able to go out and teach others. This was the pattern of the NT church (2 Tim 2:1-2)
Jesus had opened the minds of His disciples to understand the Scriptures (Luke 24:44-45). They knew what He wanted them to teach their own converts. It is not enough to win people to Jesus, we also have to teach them the Word of God. This is also a part of the Great Commission.
Jesse
Good points, Jesse.
I view it as a which came first thing, the chicken or the egg. Do men first teach, with later confirmation by the Holy Spirit (all that is taught should be confirmed by the Spirit – or ‘witnessed’ by the spirit, hence ‘test all things’). Or, does the Holy Spirit do the teaching, with men witnessing what the Holy Spirit teaches? Or is it both ways?
There is evidence in scripture that suggests men can not teach – among them even Jesus example. Peter followed Jesus for 2 full years before confessing “you are the Christ / Messiah, the son of the living God”. Jesus doesn’t say “man, it took you long enough, I didn’t think I’d ever get through that thick skull of yours, Pete”. No, Jesus said “the FATHER revealed that to you”, and that suggests that learning things of a spiritual nature must come from the Spirit (see 1 Corinthians 2:14).
And so the teaching / revelation of the Spirit comes first, whereby what men are really doing is simply witnessing to the work of the Spirit. They are not imparting anything on their own, or anything original, they are just testifying to the knowledge and wisdom that the Spirit has already imparted or is presently imparting.
Absent the Spirit, there is no teaching (learning).
Biblically, I do wonder about the so-called 5-fold roles. Scripture shows the Apostles teaching. And there are also Prophets/esses, Evangelists, Shepherds and Teachers. Are prophets supposed to teach? Or Shepherds teach? If you look at 1 Corinthians 14, who’s bringing the “word of God” to the Church? I’ll give you a hint, it’s NOT the Shepherds / Pastors. OK – I’ll tell you – it’s the PROPHETS – by the Spirit of Prophecy / Holy Spirit.
There is no Biblical model for the ’1 man pastor show’ where every thing in a religious service points to the pulpit center stage and the pastor who brings the message. 1 Cor. 14:26 talks about EVERYONE bringing to the table (love feast) that portion which the Holy Spirit has given them.
And so, it is the Holy Spirit who teaches, through those He moves through in the assembly, and by confirmation of the Holy Spirit in the listeners.
What I’m trying to say, in part Jesse, is that the modern incarnation of the church as become a very stagnant / static thing – with one man – presumably God’s elect representative for that congregation, doing the teaching, being the center of attention. But I believe the Father designed a more living, dynamic, organic Church, whereby the teaching is brought by anyone filled and inspired by the Holy Spirit, in the assembly of the saints (wherever there are 2 or 3 gathered).
I do NOT think that scipture establishes / validates the type of teacher that we have seen in Frank, Jonah, et al. For the simple reason that they have utterly silenced the congregation, and thereby the work of the Holy Spirit in / through the other body members, and are therefore grieving the Holy Spirit, and making sons of hell of their followers.
When was the last time someone (a prophet/ess) stood up in the assembly (CBC, GenChurch, et al), and said “Brother, the discernment of the Holy Spirit in me will NOT let what you just said stand, for the written word of God says: …” how often have you seen the ‘testing’ that is prescribed in 1 Cor. 14, or 1 Thes. 5 (?), happen in the assembly? When was the last time you saw a good debate between the man who professes to be the pastor/teacher, and someone (with discernment) in the Body? Or is what the “man of God” says / teaches accepted without question?
Guess I don’t think we teach, nearly as much as we witness to what the Holy Spirit is teaching. And for me, that ‘witnessing’ to the things of the Spirit almost ALWAYS comes with a great sense of excitement! As in “Yes! \o/ The Spirit showed me that, too!”
Jack
This is what I love about CBC blogging: 8:37am Derek says:
8:45am Derek says:
You just can't quit can you? Always needing the last word. Well, Timothy, I'm not sure what you should do…but I don't think I'd spend much time listening to Derek.
I wouldn’t listen to Derel either, Timothy.
“Hi, I’m Derel and this is my other brother, Derel, er, Derek … aw hell, doesn’t matter … either way, we’re both idiots …”
Thanks RED.
You bet, JP. That’s what fiends are for.
Red
honestly i hope to God that one day my youth church is shaking things up like Judah’s is. In fact i think the coolest thing in the world would be to have a christian site bashing the fact that God has favored my youth group, and my youth pastor. Also im saddened by the fact that you christians live such a life of poverty and war. You are shooting at a man of God, who is being used to save thousands of teenagers from Hell, and to be quite honest i hope you are prepared for the consequences of so foolishly mocking a man of God. You wonder how come none of you have any money like Judah? Try to bless authority instead of cursing it and see what happens…
I just love assumptions.
interesting concept… I didnt think real men talked of their sex lives in public, and especially in front of children with impressionable minds.
[Comment ID #16239 Will Be Quoted Here]
They DON’T. Doing so dishonors themselves and their wife.
One more thing, Judah has his position because of one thing, and one thing only:
Nepotism.
Have you people checked out his MY SPACE page lately?
He says: “Please note: I have help maintaining this MySpace profile from my friend Sean, who is also one of my disciples and a church staff member. If you have question for me directly, it might be better to go through the church offices….”
His disciple? Jim Jones had disciples too. So did Jesus. So, is he a man-made god or is he a cult leader? Enlighten me people…
And check it out:
http://www.myspace.com/judahsmith
I went to http://www.dictionary.com, because I was simply amazed that anyone would actually use the word “Disciple” if not referring to THE disciples.
Here’s what it said:
–noun 1. Religion.
a. one of the 12 personal followers of Christ.
b. one of the 70 followers sent forth by Christ. Luke 10:1.
c. any other professed follower of Christ in His lifetime.
2. any follower of Christ.
3. (initial capital letter) a member of the Disciples of Christ.
4. a person who is a pupil or an adherent of the doctrines of another; follower: a disciple of Freud.
–verb (used with object) 5. Archaic. to convert into a disciple.
6. Obsolete. to teach; train.
So I guess Sean is a pupil or adherant to the doctrine of Judah Smith.
By the way, just a personal observation, Judah needs a hair stylist… badly.
ewwwwwwwww.. he used the effeminate pose for his myspace photo…
[Comment ID #16250 Will Be Quoted Here]
He’s 28 and doesn’t know how to use a hair comb, yet he has “Disciples”.
Freaking AMAZING!
I got all lost in your myspace page the other night BTBeauty. Good stuff.
Thanks for the enlightenment, Reformed Heathen. And thanks, Locutus, for the compliment. My next post will be for you.
Want money?? Become a pastor of a mega church and sell lots of crap, write books about nothing, tapes and so on!
[Comment ID #16613 Will Be Quoted Here]
Better yet, be that pastor’s son and heir…
Reforming heathen,
I bet your “bald” or at the least you have a receding hairline???? Am I right or am I right……….
Judah Smith!
I heard you speak for the second time this last week… and then met your wife in Nordstroms right before I was going to a business meeting at Starbucks to make a deal, your wife prayed for me right then and there and things are looking great! Love this type of community! Preach on!
Of course– Nordstrom’s
[Comment ID #17315 Will Be Quoted Here]
Neiman-Marcus is too far away.
What about Pic n Save? At least I never have to worry about running into
people from my old world there. Just doesn’t happen.
What they don’t have Dolce & Gabanna shoes there?
It’s great to be mega-pastor!
Hey, if you are teaching:
“Join us, and you will be successful!”
you had better look successful yourself!
I want to be a pastors wife!!
Not.
Nordstroms clothes are crap. They fall apart in no time at all!
And… no CBCer’s at Pic n Save?? I will have to try it.
[Comment ID #17160 Will Be Quoted Here]
poser.
Umm…I think you guys are just jelous of Judah’s success. If you want to make money in this country you can be prosperous, just get off your lazy butts and do it and stop hating people who have more money than you. I mean have we got nothing better to do than to persecute a pastor who has been doing plenty of good in the community? Get a freakin life people, because it is not your place to judge. Oh and I think plenty of rich people will be in heaven…I’ll be there
****STANDING OVATION*****
I nominate this for comment of the year.
How much does a freakin life go for now-a-days? I need to get me a new one of those!
BTW…for what it’s worth Paul K. (PK…ironic!)…I’m fairly certain Judah isn’t making more a year than a LOT of us here, so, uh… jealousy…isn’t even in the top 10 reasons of why we have issue with Mr. Southern Accent!
What’s with all the hate mongering in a Christian Forum? If you don’t like the guy, simply don’t go to his church. I don’t think it can be any more clear than that, not create a forum on why you dislike him. I think it is everyone’s personal preference and there are plenty of other churches in the region you can choose from. (oh and the Ironic P.K. comment…it’s true too, I am a Preachers Kid…very ironic my dad is a minister)
So, you’re saying, you’re the son of a pastor, and your dad is a reverend? Or that your dad is a man of the cloth, and since he is your father, you are a padre’s kid? Are you sure your dad isn’t a vicar? Just to be clear, you’re trying to tell us that your father is a clergyman, and that makes you the son of a parson? I would hate to jump to an erroneous conclusion about you … just to be certain, what I believe I hear you saying, is that your father is a chaplain, and that would make you the son of of a rector?
Is what you’re trying to say?
I thought you said you were rich? Oh – I get it – your real NAME must be Rich.
Stup’
Well…I was merely saying that is ironic because my initials are P.K. and I also happen to be a P.K. (preacher’s kid). But thanks for those very wise remarks…I think you just made me lose a few I.Q. points from reading them…thanks a lot.
-Paul K.
PK…
A lot of comments on this blog will make you lose some I.Q. points.
But fortunately many of them will also get you thinking about some really tough topics from a wider range of perspectives than most church dwellers are used to, and well…
a lot of us here have found that to be helpful to fostering a deeper, more real, relationship with Christ than anything we ever got out of the IC!
For what it’s worth…I’m not a Judah hater. I just don’t like what he’s selling. I bought it once before and found it hurtful. So I prefer others be warned about buying it too.
If it works for you, we’ll chat about it some day in Heaven.
PK – don’t let ‘Stupid Reader’ get to you – he got a thesaurus for Christmas and has been annoying as hell ever since …
‘Scrupe
I wonder why soo much of you hate, He is doing a great job. I love listen to his services on podcast… Its hard for some people to understand gods works but 1 day you will and i hope its not going to be late for you guys/gals, It will be far worse then you can ever imagine. So i’ll pray for you guys…
Love Jesus—— He may be charismatic, he may be gifted, he may be doing a great job….
But talking about his sex life as he does …. that is IMMATURE.
i notice everyone points out all the tiny flaws and stuff but yet all the haters dont say the good he does.. Check hos myspace and read the comments
[Comment ID #24044 Will Be Quoted Here]
“Haters”, LJ? How old are you, son? Several of the folks here have known Judah since childhood, others are mature (read: fatherly/elderly) spirit-filled saints who have been walking with the Lord since before Judah was even born. They have listened to Judah preach and teach and have subjected what they heard from him to the discernment of the Holy Spirit as Judah’s elders / elders in the Body of Christ.
LJ, I’m not saying that like some heavy handed put down – but just an observation of blogs and other eForums – they don’t convey vital information about the people who post – like age – maturity – education – experience – gifting/anointedness … several people here whom you have called ‘haters’ are in their 50′s. People I’m sure you would not call “haters” if you were to speak with them face to face in a church setting.
That touches on one of my biggest beefs with blogs and eforums – they’re de-personalizing – just pixels on a screen – several steps removed from intimate / relational Christian fellowship … it’s far too easy to blast at the pixels on the screen without acknowledging the person who is on the other side …
There’s no haters here, LJ.
Sam
[Comment ID #24046 Will Be Quoted Here]
Sam,
People in their 50′s can be “haters” just as well. It seems to me that you look at love jesus and discredit him/her because you assume that he/she is of young age, and make yourself and others more credible because of…what, age? It makes no sense. If you feel however, that because you might be older, that automatically makes you wiser, then more power to you.
I am not a member of the city church, nor a member of Generation Church. I have heard Judah preach, and listen to his podcasts. I think he is a man of God, and will be rewarded in heaven. Again, we may disagree with little aspects of his theology, but we should also look at what the good he is doing. To create one of the fastest growing youth churches in the Northwest is incredible! I hope that you, me and Judah will be able to discuss this in heaven in a more “intimate / realtional Christian Fellowship.”
Paul K.
I wonder if during the apostle Paul’s time, when the Judahizers were requiring the gentiles to be circumcised, if you would have referred to the issue as a “tiny flaw” or “little aspect of theology”?
It was a BIG issue, Paul. In fact, I’m certain it was the motivation for Paul to write Galatians, which if you read carefully, Paul writes that anyone who preaches the law and tries to bring the sons of God in Christ back under the yoke of the law, that such are false brothers, who I presume, are to be shown the door.
Galatians 4:17 MSG Those heretical teachers go to great lengths to flatter you, but their motives are rotten. They want to shut you out of the free world of God’s grace so that you will always depend on them for approval and direction, making them feel important.
Galatians 5:9 MSG And please don’t toss this off as insignificant. It only takes a minute amount of yeast, you know, to permeate an entire loaf of bread.
Judah is teaching the law – sometimes the law of Moses (tithing, et al), and sometimes the law of a rotten religious organization that observes many human laws and rules. He is making young people into slaves of the law.
That my friend, is a BIG issue, not a trifling one.
When I speak of maturity, Paul, I mean spiritual maturity. Often, spiritual maturity goes hand in hand with years of age, though not always. One need only listen to Judah for awhile to discern his immaturity and error. Likewise, it’s not hard to hear the spiritual immaturity of some posters who write off Judah’s grievous error as “tiny flaws” and “little aspects of theology” while trumpeting the “good” he does, where “good” is measured in numbers of proselytes.
Have you forgotten that man ate from the tree of “knowledge of good and evil”, and it totally screwed us up? We are incapable of rightly telling “good and evil”, so, why call Judah “good”?
Not even Jesus allowed people to call him “good”.
Mark 10:17-18 MSG As he went out into the street, a man came running up, greeted him with great reverence, and asked, “Good Teacher, what must I do to get eternal life?” (18) Jesus said, “Why are you calling me good? No one is good, only God.
Suggest you bone up on the Spirit and the Word, sonny.
Sam
So you are calling Judah a “False Brother” with “Rotten Motive” ? Am I understanding you correctly oh ever so wise one? Please give me some more spirit and word for I am incapable of biblical knowledge.
-Paul
Would you prefer “hireling” (John 10) because he herds sheep unto himself and bilks them of tithes and offerings, while he lives a far better standard of life than most of his young proselytes? Or perhaps “judahizer” because he preaches the law? Perhaps “pharisee” is more appropriate since he preaches holiness in one moment and then talks about sex with his wife and many other inappropriate sexual / carnal references the next?
As for calling Judah a “false brother” with “rotten motive”, ’twasn’t me who said that, ’twas scripture …
Hey, I got an idea, why don’t you review Judah’s How TIGHT do YOU want it sermon for us? Of course we’d like to know how many sexual references he uses, how many general carnal references (showering naked, farting, stuff like that), how many times he boasts about his wife, how many self references he uses – our findings suggest that is routine for a Judah sermon … and it’s gotten to where I can’t stand to listen to him for all the carnal crap that comes out of him …
We’d be grateful for good sermon review …
Sam
For what my little opinion is worth…
I would NOT doubt for one second that Judah’s motives are very sincere. I’m sure he feels he is touching a lot of peoples’ lives, doing something he has been raised to believe is God’s work, and has resulted in a “comfortable” lifestyle for himself.
I can’t judge intention, because I can’t see his heart and mind like God can, so saying he has a “Rotten Motive” is taking it a bit far.
Whether he is a “False Brother” or not is a whole other topic though. You see, I think Judah-believers see what they think is a ton of good fruit falling from the “I’m having more sex than you” tree (eg. the “thousands” of UofW students being converted in his campus ministries), and you think he is doing the Lord’s work.
Others here just disagree, founding their contention on the fact that what he is selling is legalistic, judgmental, and elitist.
For people who have NOT gotten to a point of awakening at the bill of goods the IC is selling (Judah included), I can respect why you would defend him so. But when that awakening occurs, you’ll understand much more clearly why some of us here decry what he is all about.
Again…my humble little opinion.
Other people with good intentions and serving God or a god with all their heart…
Jim Jones, Mormons, J.Dubs… and many more
Does that make them pure and holy and proper?
Don’t forget David Koresh…I’ve heard he was dynamic like Judah is!
It’s interesting to me that many feel that today we are not “qualified” to judge another. Paul pointed fingers and blew the whistle all the time on false teachers. I wish I could travel back in time and live in that culture long enough to compare. Surely if he were here he would be seen as too judgmental and harsh. But I wonder who he would finger and call out?
And where are the Paul’s of today? I’ve looked at the websites of some men brave enough (foolish enough) to name the false teachers of our day.
Some of the lists include Billy Graham!
I don’t claim to have the gift of discernment, but I do think there are prob. many many false teachers. And I think it’s ok to point them out. (If you’re right). But I couldn’t tell you who they are.
I can tell you that I would not let my child attend a conference where Judah was speaking, based upon his sermon titles alone. A man of God does not need to sensationalize a message. The cross and Him crucified is enough.
Frankly, I’m ashamed of Wendell and Gini for allowing a leader in their house to publicly post a sermon title so blatantly carnal. Whatever purity there was before marriage for Judah, seems lost at this juncture.
Hi Grey Sheep,
When we discern someone a ‘false brother’, is it because he is not our brother, or Jesus brother? What if the standard for whether or not someone is a true brother, is whether they point the way to Jesus exclusively without inserting themselves in the middle of a persons relationship between that person and Jesus?
To me, brotherhood recognizes Jesus as the no. 1 son, the first born, and all us younger sibs are just keen to see people become brothers of our big brother too … the true brother is all about Jesus … the true brother does not compete with Jesus for the attention of the brethren …
Perhaps the difference between a true and false brother, is selflessness and selfishness.
If I should bring a brother to the Lord, do I try to hang on to him? Is he my disciple, or the Lord’s? Do I hang on so I can boast of his flesh or make him pay for gospel lessons? Seems like a true brother is totally non-possessive and eager to see someone wholly give to Jesus.
At least, that’s what occurs to me now …
Sam
I agree, Sam.
If more people were selflessly pointing the way to Jesus the world would be a MUCH better place.
[Comment ID #24102 Will Be Quoted Here]
that is the stupidest correlation i have ever heard.
Quick question, who on this forum has a church or is personally a youth pastor of a student ministry that numbers over 1600?
Both City Bible, and City Church do. I really dont care what the heck your views are on their money or preaching, hair, clothes, purity message….when it all boils down, Judah is being used to tear teenagers away from alcohal, drugs, and sex and turn them towards God. i know…im one of them.
Comment
I believe in the bible, I believe there is only one interpretation of it, and I believe not everyone knows the real interpretation of the bible. To he who has an ear, let him hear. In the end times, God is going to raise of a church that knows the truth, a church that will defy all types of churches. I remember reading in Revelations that the two witnesses in Revelation 11, have a ministry that is based on repentence. The bible calls us to test all things, and I have currently been testing Judah. Rather than throwing all my hopes, dreams, worldview, and reality, into Judah Smith messages, I listen to him, and try to reason with everything he says.
I dont believe Judah Smith is the start of the endtimes church. Ofcourse Judah Smith is speaking lots of truth, and telling teens about the reality of Christ. But he is not my hero, he is not my leader, he is just another guy. My hero, and my leader came, and gave his life for me, and everyone I love. My hero is Jesus Christ, and he didnt sell truth to people, And let me tell you, HOW MUCH MONEY, CAN JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF!, MILK OUT OF ANY WORLD. Having all the knowledge and wisdom in the world, Jesus could have made money everywhere with his mouth. But Jesus didnt use his Knowledge, wisdom and power for his financial gain, and his servant Paul would rather DIE than DO IT! And let me tell you this! I know for sure that Jesus had the real truth, the real intrepretation of the bible, the one I am after, the one I want to have. Jesus Christ was even asked by Satan personally, if you want everything in the world, all its riches, kingdoms, and people, just bowdown and worship me and its yours. If Satan is willing to ask Jesus, why not offer Judah the opportunity to profit off of truth? To take the truth that was giving to him freely, and sell it for $5.99, or $29.99. But the sad part is, Satan probably didnt even have to offer Judah anything, Judah went out and made the mistake of selling truth himself. I believe Judah Smith has not yet gathered the fact that its not right to sell truth, and i would like to believe this because he is gladly doing, would Paul would rather DIE THAN DO! Was not Paul closer to the truth than Judah Smith?A good question to ask myself is this. Is Judah Smith a current leader of the endtimes Church? In my opinion, no, the endtimes church will be focused on one thing, Repentence, and people are going to cry out in repentence, and cry, and cry. When the real truth comes, people will see the real leaders of truth, who will represent the face of Christ himself. The real leaders of truth will speak with the same authority as Jesus Christ, they will be cups full of reality, spilling upon the ears of a world in darkness. Love will be redifined for people in those days. For the truth will set us free, and with many denominations of church, with many interpretations of the bible, who has truth? For many false prophets will come in the end times, and they will tell everyone, ” Over here, I am he! I am the one who knows the real truth, I speak on behalf of the Lord and Savoiur Jesus Christ, they will say, follow me, listen to what I say, model your life after me, and my truth.! When the real truth comes, I believe Judah Smith and Generation X church will be laid bare for all that they are, and all that they were. But anyone at the time of the arrival of real truth, will have the opportunity to see the real truth shining before the world, for all the world will be told of the (one true truth) Led by the one truth church. But this church, is yet to come, soon, and very soon it is coming to us, I believe.
When the two witnesses arrive, they will be speaking nothing but truth, modelilng nothing but Christ, they are going to be indestructable for 3 and a half years, and are going to kill anyone who attempts to hurt them. So until I see two men of God, defying the armies of the entire world. I will continue to seek the truth, ever carefully, ever testingly, seeking to find, the real truth.
“modelilng nothing but Christ, they are going to be indestructable for 3 and a half years, and are going to kill anyone who attempts to hurt them”
Bible + World of Warcraft = Ozni’s End Times Church
Reply for Locutus
“modeling nothing but Christ, they are going to be indestructable for 3 and a half years, and are going to kill anyone who attempts to hurt them”.
I have never played world of warcraft. What i said about the end times church came straight from the bible. Revelations chapter 11.
Revelations 11:3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will be clothed in sackcloth and will prophesy during those 1,260 days.
Revelations 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of all the earth. if anyone tries to harm them, fire flashes from there mouths of the prophets and consumes their enemies. This is how anyone who tries to harm them must die.
Ozni, I appreciate your candor and scrutinization of Judah Smith. You’re not the first to point out that he’s a sellout.
I did find your observation about Christ’s apparent lack of concern over money for himself rather interesting, and it reminded me of several places in the Gospels where Jesus could have used his power to simply bring wealth to himself, but instead he chose another route. The feeding of 5000 comes to mind, as well as the miracle of the coin in the fish’s mouth to pay his taxes (as opposed to taking a collection).
However, I’d recommend you put down the book of Revelations for awhile, and read something like 1 John instead. Forcing literal interpretations upon apocalyptic literature is a crap shoot at best. After all you said,
I’m sure you hope that you’re one of the few who have the “true” interpretation, but don’t think you think it a bit hasty to assume that? I’d recommend less time spent on end times doom and gloom and focus more on finding the truth for people who are brainwashed by people like Judah.
I never said i hope I have the true interpretation of the bible, I said I want to attain it. I dont say I have the truth, but I certainly am piecing together information, and Gods word, and I have to declare truth at some point for many parts of the bible, that is how i build my foundation for a worldview, and faith. The part I used in Revelations, is clear, it speaks of real leaders coming to a world desperatley in need of them. Real leaders coming to a world that has not repented, and doesnt really know why they should. The two witnesses are going to have a ministry based on repentence. It says they will be cloathed in sackcloth, which is a metaphor for repentence, They will be clothed in repentence. I dont know when the world is going to end, but I do know this world today needs to repent. People need to repent, Not with, Judah Smith’s, “Repeat after me” robot prayers, But people need to repent based on truth, based on reality, based on the truth behind every lie, based on Christ, based on his righteousness and his salvation. I really think were going to learn to cry out loud when we see the real church leaders arise. Here is a great question for us to ask ourselves, What is a true leader of the church? Is there a true leader walking today? Or is the only true leaders, the ones being displayed in Gods word? God will help us, to discover what the truth is, so that we can understand people like Judah Smith, so we can see the truth about the false leaders of this day, and stop the brainwashing. Surely the truth is here to be found, a truth that can be trusted with confidence. But while I wait for these wonderful leaders, risen by God himself, to come. I will seek the truth, test the truth, fight for the truth, and constantly re-examine, and perfect, my persception, of what is truth.
I love your passion Ozni. But I don’t understand a word you’re saying.
Well tell me what parts you dont understand, my posts might not make sense for everyone. But i believe that if it makes sense to me, it can makes sense to you. All we need to do is communicate what doesnt make sense, so i can communicate to you, how it does. The last thing I want is to become a speaker of truth, that makes no sense to people. But Jesus Christ had the same problem when he spoke to people, which is why Jesus said, to he who has an ear, let him hear. What I wrote makes perfect sense to me, all you need to do, is tell me what you dont understand, and I will attempt to re-phrase for you.
Nevermind.
I’m surprised at the ignorance of you bloggers … don’t you know that the 2 witnesses will be armed with the JesusBlaster 5000?
Ozzie, there is a school of thought that the 2 witnesses are not men and that passage is not literal/physical, rather, the passage is metaphoric, and the 2 witnesses are the Holy Spirit and the Word. They’ve been testifying to the sin of men for 2000 years my friend, and the fire of truth from the mouths of anyone who speaks of the Spirit and the Word does in fact expose that which is not the truth, those who are not ‘under the blood of Christ’ …
I have been on the receiving end of a fiery blast of truth from the Spirit, and I have delivered a few … such does ‘incinerate’ falsehood …
Sam
I never said the witnesses would be armed with The Jesus Blaster 5000, and you never stated why I am ignorant, you just called me ignorant, and then you tagged it with a joke. I am not laughing, and you havent accomplished anything with your opening statement.
In reply to your interpretation of the two witnesses, I have never researched your interpretation of the two witnesses. And you didnt give me any information on your interpretation. And you never gave me any reason as to why my interpretation wrong. If you could direct me to a website, that is based on explaining your interpretation of the two witnesses, so I can see it in detail. Or post here in detail why you think the two witnesses are what you think they are. Then we can start moving forward.
Let me ask you this question, How can the two witnesses of the end times, be the holy spirit and the word? If it says the two witnesses will have a 3 and a half year ministry, they will be killed by the beast that arises out of the bottomless pit. Then the two witnesses will lay dead on the ground before the eyes of the world, who will be so happy they are dead that they will send gifts to one another, nobody will be allowed to bury the witnesses. And after 3 and a half days, the spirit of God enters there bodies, and a voice from heaven shouts, “Come up here!”. Then the two witnesses rise to heaven in a cloud, as all there enemies watched. Also, during the time of the two witnesses ministry, they have the power to stop rain as long as they like, and cast plagues on the earth.
I need more details of your interpretation of the two witnesses.
thanks
Ozni
Say what??? !!! Onzi???? Take the marbles out of your mouth.
Take the marbles out of my mouth? I dont understand you
[Comment ID #24576 Will Be Quoted Here]
Finally, something we can all understand and agree on.
Ozni (and Harriet?)
I my message, I addressed you (para. 2) and “you bloggers” (para. 1) separately. Unless of course you want to include yourself among ignorant bloggers?
One of the questions every interpreter of Revelation has to answer is whether the writings are literal or spiritual / metaphorical / allegorical.
I lean towards the more spiritual / metaphorical interpretation, since Jesus said in John 6:63 “My words ARE SPIRIT” and since it was Jesus who dictated the Revelation to John – unless of course Jesus decided to throw poor old John a change-up and start talking literally.
From what you have written above, it seems clear that you are a literalist. God bless you for that. Perhaps you can tell me whether or not the beast will have green scales?
Thank you,
Sam
I dont want to be included among those you have deemed ignorant bloggers. But let me tell you, if I am living in ignorance, and you were to pull me out of it, I would be greatful, that God brought you into my life. In regards to your interpretation of the two witnesses, I went out and retrieved information from the internet. Which I will post at the bottom of this post
(Sams Quote)
“One of the questions every interpreter of Revelation has to answer is whether the writings are literal or spiritual/ metaphorical/ Allegorical.”
You tell me that you lean towards the spiritual/metaphorical interpretation. But I tell you, I am reading Revelations Chapter 11 for what it says directly, and I do believe God will raise up two witnesses, who will do all the things that Revelations 11 says they will do. Jesus Christ said his words are spirit, but I dont think that Jesus Christ was speaking directly of the two witnesses, or revelations.
(Sams Quote)
“From what you have written above, it seems clear that you are a literalist. God bless you for that.
God bless me for that? I dont understand you, you seemed to be implying so far that I am wrong, and you are right. Now your saying God bless me?
It may have seemed to you that I am a literalist, but I will tell you what I am. I am a child of God, seeking, and asking for the truth in this life. I found this blog that is trying to figure out if Judah Smith is a (true leader) of the church of Jesus Christ. So i thought it would be a great idea to mention, the bible says that in the end times, the two witnesses will arise. When they get here it is going to be an awesome time for the church, i believe. I have posted a link here, that is all about your intepretation of Revelations 11. I read about your interpretation, and I still agree with mine, I believe that what John said, in revelations about the two witnesses, is what it is, yet when the two witnesses actually come, there will be so much more about them, that was not written down in Revelations.
(Sams quote)
“Perhaps you can tell me whether or not the beast have green scales?”
I dont know whether the beast has green scales or not, but all I know is the Beast arises out of the bottomless pit, and kills the two witnesses. Why do you ask me a question, you know that I cant answer?
With so many interpretations of Revelations, we all have our own opinion. Time will tell who is right, for Revelation speaks of prophecy, things that are to come.
(Sam’s current Interpretation)
http://chrisjesusboy.wordpress.com/2007/02/14/life-death-of-the-two-witnesses/
(Ozni’s current Interpretation)
http://www.tribulation.com/prt_two.htm
[Comment ID #24578 Will Be Quoted Here]
I think that about says it all. Thanks for playing.
As for whether the following page represents my current view, as you have assumed:
I took a brief look at the page, and read the following for the 2 witnesses scripture:
That blog post is moronic. Prophecy, according to Revelation 19:10, is the testimony of Jesus Christ, who lives through people who have given their life to Him. 1 Peter 3:15 addresses very specifically how we testify (prophesy) about Christ Jesus. First, people see the hope we have in us, their curiosity is piqued, they ask us why we have such hope and then we tell them what it is (Jesus!) that makes us hopeful. That son, is prophesy. Time (years) and grace will teach you that Jesus is NOT the “Hell Nazi” evangelicals make Him out to be. In fact, if you pay close attention, you’ll see that the IC has been teaching “universal reconciliation” for centuries. If you don’t believe me, just watch how quickly all that “hell” preaching turns to “he made it to heaven” preaching at someones funeral. I’ve seen the church bury old cusses whom they SWORE was hell bound, and who never repented, with a Christian funeral and extolling the mans godly virtues, though he had none and never did receive baptism nor recite the sinners prayer. IF the IC had any real conviction about their hell preaching and beliefs, don’t you think you’d hear more funeral homilies about people going to hell? Nope, they all make it to heaven, according to the officiating pastor.
Anyway, me thinks the author of that blog has been reading TOO much of Tim LaHaye and the Left Behind series. What most churchians have left behind is their brain.
I haven’t worked out Revelation (51 years and still trying), however the years and the Spirit have drastically changed my view of the ‘rapture’ … you’re welcome to read my thoughts on Witnessing and the Rapture. Both are fairly short articles. I post them just because you seem to be concerned with where I’m coming from concerning the end times.
Sam
go for it. you will not make it
You people all need 2 back off Judah he is a gr8 man and he is the reason i live for christ if he didnt preach the word of GOD like he dose i wouldent be here so BACK OFF
Oh man.. yet another troll finds the blog
DEFINITIION: Blog = A short form for weblog, a frequent and chronological publication of comments and thoughts on the web. They usually include philosophical reflections, opinions on the Internet and social or political issues.
Jesus is My Hero and dont care if you call me a troll all i know is Judah Smiths the way he preached to me over a CD revaled truths 2 me and saved my life i prayed 2 God 2 save me from my herion addiction and he did Judah smith is a Gr8 man of God and if you want to Bag the crap out of supporting Him Do So email me with all your complaints about because i simply dont care because all the things you say to me will simply just be given to God my Savior so yeah??
“Jesus is My Hero and dont care if you call me a troll all i know is Judah Smiths the way he preached to me over a CD revaled truths 2 me and saved my life i prayed 2 God 2 save me from my herion addiction and he did Judah smith is a Gr8 man of God and if you want to Bag the crap out of supporting Him Do So email me with all your complaints about because i simply dont care because all the things you say to me will simply just be given to God my Savior so yeah??”
You sure your’e not doing heroin anymore right? LOL! No I’m kidding. Jesus saves you always remember that hun. Judah might have directed you in the right direction but God helped you get clean and saved.
[Comment ID #25203 Will Be Quoted Here]
LOL!!
Ummm…. why are you here?
Judah is a serveant of God now if anyone has any problems debate
but what he says is true we need 2 cut the crap and give the devil the middle finger but this fourm is giveing the devil room 2 move please if you love jesus support all his serveants
[Comment ID #25242 Will Be Quoted Here]
LOL!!
Ummm… WHY are you HERE?
haha
Now… WHY are you here?!?!?!
anom i am here because i am sick of beeing quite and having 2 bite my tounge about this issue so if you have a problem with me supporting some one who modernising christianty making easy to understand for our generation well good luck to you but my main reason for beeing here is 2 defend Judah because if you actualy new him you would no he is a gr8 person
[Comment ID #25245 Will Be Quoted Here]
Hey, I have a question for you. What does Judah think about the illiteracy problem in america today?
HAHAHAHAH very funny i am aware i cant spell and the funny thing is i am not from the United States of Amirica
With an ethnic name like “Joe” it’s hard to imagine anyone mistaking you for an Amerian.
[Comment ID #25247 Will Be Quoted Here]
Oh, I see. Then are you a resident alien here? Or just illegal? Or are you even in the USA at all?
And if not, why do you care what happens here?
i really dont care what u call me man but just leave Judah alone he has had enough abuse God bless man
[Comment ID #25252 Will Be Quoted Here]
Oh, I see. Then are you a resident alien here? Or just illegal? Or are you even in the USA at all?
And if not, why do you care what happens here?
i am not equating that poor black people are poor i am just saying that he has done alot of good things on Gods behalf
and no i am not in the united states i am counsler from Australia and i am sick of seeing the hurt around the world have seen shocking things and if every one was just brought to christ and stoped arguing on stupid fourms like these well then it would make the world such a better place
[Comment ID #25254 Will Be Quoted Here]
I see.
So, from 8,000 miles away, you feel more qualified to comment on this situation than the people here who have been, or had been, members of that church for decades?
Is that correct?
all i am saying is you have 2 stop singleing people out that are trying 2 make a diffrence in the world i dont see you going all around the world preaching the word of God do i Now preaching the truth
[Comment ID #25256 Will Be Quoted Here]
Didn’t you say you were from Australia?
I thought they spoke English there, was I incorrect in that assumption?
Oh yes, one more thing.
I AM trying to make a difference in the world by posting the truth on this blog.
Why are you attempting to silence me, since I am speaking the truth?
What are you afraid of?
“HAHAHAHAH very funny i am aware i cant spell and the funny thing is i am not from the United States of Amirica”
I felt a little bad until you said Australia. Don’t Australians speak English? Yes, sometimes better than Americans!
“i am not equating that poor black people are poor ”
Nobody said anything about being black in the past 30 comments?!? Oh, and read that sentence again……no seriously Joe read it lol.
Yes you were incorect to say we speak english here because people here speak what ever langue there ethnic group speak and if they want to learn english they can i am not silenceing the truth you just have a warped peception of the truth
“Didn’t you say you were from Australia?
I thought they spoke English there, was I incorrect in that assumption?”
Maybe he was part of an Aboriginal tribe and somehow came here?? No, no no I reaching lol, too much tv. I’m sorry.
Joe!!, you need to improve your comments, that way, other’s will take you seriously. As far as JS having taken enough so called abuse, I wouldn’t call what is on this blog “abuse”. However, I would call exploiting the name of Jesus for monetary gain (yes, he is not the only one guilty of this) abuse. Abuse of Jesus and ALOT of people. Also, I highly doubt that the world be a better place if people stopped arguing in forums. lol Why won’t he be real?
JS loves the stage.
Jennifer its fine i am Part Aborignal and dont belive in wealth is for christianty but i do belive that JS is Genuine he dosent Just love the stage and no he is not exploting the name Jesus Christ for montary gain he gets nothing out of that he gets a wage like every one else that works in a church
Had to make a few changes to that… lol
Anyway, this blog speaks the truth. You should be thanking God for your rescue. What are you doing spending so much time on something that doesn’t serve your interests??
i do thank God all the time i know that he saved me. But unlike alot of youth pastors that have said to have been there for me i only found one that would send me emails and ring me 2 check up on me if i was still keeping my track straight and yes you guessed it was JS so of course i hate when i see people saying that he is fake because he is not he really cares about people and has the decentsy to follow up and see if there walk with jesus is still on the correct path and help if we have fallen of the rails
ok this will be my last blog comment thingy Judah smith is a Gr8 man of God he gets a salary like all church staff and yes that comes out of the tithe but thats not evil because the tithe also goes to wards other things like sending your youth off to confrences better facilltys and stuff for the chucrch
“you just have a warped peception of the truth”
LOL wow wow wow. Joe, do me a favor? Go read the entire bible from beginning to end praying the whole time and then get back to me in 3 years. How do we have a warped perception of the truth??
The people posting here have actually had contact with this guy ranging from meeting him a few times to some of us knowing him for years. I got sucked into the bullcrap machine because I was young and naive and didn’t know certain things. Now I know more biblically and am more mature in general.
We are here because we don’t want people to live in a lie especially when it comes to spiritually matters. I would rather have the people stay home, pray and read the word with one person (Where two or more are gathered) and not go to church than to sit under a false prophet and his minions!!
Do you know how many people have been damaged by the nonsense coming out of CBC, Penscola, and Toronto churches/revivals? THOUSANDS. I’m seriously surprised that Toronto doesn’t have a blog omg that church is 10 times worse than CBC. I say that mostly because of the false revival that went on in these churches and more because of ALL THE CHURCHES THAT TRIED TO COPY IT. Toronto even went as far as saying, “Bring the Toronto blessing back with you.” This is what my church tried to do and you know what happened? The youth group got 10 times worse! People started to leave! Hypocrites became even bigg hypocrites!! Children were pulled out of the main school because they saw this nonsense right away for what it was, nonsense. I’m 23 now and alot of young people that I went through this stuff with at me at 15, 16, 17, and 18 years with won’t even step back into a church because they are so hurt, confused, and angry and these were kids that really were trusting in God but we had terrible leadership pretending to be Godly leadership, alot of unscriptual nonsense, and the worst thing people not living in reality. Toronto is not reality. Once the high wears off you have to go back into the real world. I thought it was just me and my church but I met a girl at a Toronto conference who is now one of my closest friends. Two years after we met I spoke to her brother who I met at the conference too. He told me his youth group didn’t go up there anymore BECAUSE OF THE SAME PROBLEM!! Reality vs. church conference high. I’m not against conferences but you have to keep it real, unhyped, practical, oh and BIBLICALLY BASED AND SPIRITUALLY SOUND!!!
I blame the leadership COMPLETELY because they took us up there and they knew what we were walking into (some had been up there before that’s how they knew to copy the revival and bring it home) and they just assumed it was of God they didn’t PRAY first and they knew they had very young, influential, naive (in things of Christ), and open kids ranging from 12 to 21 going up there into this craziness and when I say craziness I mean craziness!
Joe my point is: You can only trust fully 100 percent in Jesus!NOBODY ELSE!! Everyone else MUST be questioned and held up to the light ESPECIALLY church leadership because the devil tends to attack them more. Why? Because everyone else in human and imperfect! Only Jesus was perfect.
P.S Urmm that was a really good post I just made, canI be poster of the week? LOL! No no, :goes into Russian accent: I kid, I kid.
[Comment ID #25266 Will Be Quoted Here]
Right, well, all you have to do is look at what they have and that is your tithe money right there. Or, the cd that you bought recently. It’s not there are homeless in the area or anything.
Jennifer should definitely be “poster of the week”.
Jennifer, I was ready to give you poster of the week at this point:
but when you finish with:
You bump yourself up to being poster of the month. Congratulations.
[Comment ID #25260 Will Be Quoted Here]
Well, let me know when you can speak English, and, more importantly, when you can understand it.
And the truth.
[Comment ID #25263 Will Be Quoted Here]
I totally and completely disagree.
Judah Smith is selling Heaven for cash, and the more cash you give to Judah, the more he says God loves you.
He is a charletan of the worst kind, an Elmer Gantry for the 21st Century.
[Comment ID #25265 Will Be Quoted Here]
Just curious. Did he call collect, or did you have to dial a 1-900 number?
[Comment ID #25266 Will Be Quoted Here]
So, that is going to be your last blog comment?
THANK GOD!
I don’t have a problem with his English. I have friends with worse English. I do have a problem with him being a sheep. He is totally trusting in Judah and he is in for a huge let down. I am even more scared for him because he is a recovering addict and a new Christian. He needs to put down the cd’s, the books, and the phone and go read his bible and pray because the letdown with his history before becoming a Christian might affect him even more when Judah Smith and Company let you down and they will because they are humans.
“You bump yourself up to being poster of the month. Congratulations.”
YES! Do I get a gift? Maybe a free gift card?! lol
Jennifter and to the powers that be on this blog –the Toronto Blessing thing
needs a thread all of its own! I still don’t understand what all happened here at our church when that hit. We were told the church’s that didn’t participate would have some kind of a judgement on them or like thing.
I’m now attending one of those so called wise churchs and from what I can see
their fruit there is dripping off of the trees –unbelieveable heart for the poor
single moms ect. this week they are working w/ the city to start a meth house
and after school programs for parents who have no money for care.
And to think I listened to that form of a curse on them! ha!
Please give more info and for the record what went on at CBC during that time from those who were there?
Whoa –a house for people who need to get “off of meth” –a huge problem
they are willing to confront and do something about. You would have to
be outside the bubble to get that there is a pandemic going on there.
This message is directed to the founder and creator of this website. All this website is doing is causing more harm than good. You are spending all of your time and energy BLASTING AND CRITIZING a Christian Leader who is trying to do some good in the world. Perhaps you may do ministry differently or have opposing views on certain doctrinal issues. Jesus said it best, “If they are not against me, then they are for me.” In other words, Pastor Judah and The City Church are doing more good than harm for the Kingdom of God, GIVE THEM A BREAK BUDDY! Furthermore, don’t forget that one day you will have to give an account before God for every hurtful and false accusation you have made against The City Church Pastors-BE CAREFUL! Also, My question to you is: How many people have you led to Christ and discipled?
[Comment ID #25480 Will Be Quoted Here]
LOL!!!
Another lemming goes for the kill.
Tell me my friend, have you ever studied the Bible at the collegiate level, and if so, Where? Because I don’t think your style and mission is very Biblical or effective.
[Comment ID #25483 Will Be Quoted Here]
“Dear Lemming,
The cliff is over there, run along now.
Sincerely,
A smarter person than you are”
Working backward, lets start with:
Led to Christ…zero…remember that it is God who does all the leading. Discipled…I guess that depends on what you mean by discipled. I think I’ll go with 14.
I cannot wait for the day I get to hear God say “Johnpaul, my good and faithful servant”.
No they are not.
I’ve never heard that before and couldn’t find it by doing a quick Bible search. Would you mind giving me Chapter and Verse?
Yes, it is a shame that I have to waste my time doing that when I could be out helping others. But, until they change their misguided ways…
That would actuallly be Catalyst. The Founder & Creator.
Answer my questions, don’t resort to namecalling, only ignorant people do that. Let’s have an intelligent convo…
i bet you have a picture of yourself blownup and framed over ur fireplace. oh wait. u probably live in a cardboard box, cuz real Christians arent allowed to have descent houses.
Who are you talking to?
Bloggers,
You can write the Crusader directly at jfsparkle13@hotmail.com
I think the 13 is J. F. Sparkles age. Or IQ. Not sure yet. Time will tell.
Sam
I know I’m not intelligent enough to “convo” with Crusader, so I’ll just say these points and be gone. Isn’t there a verse in the NT where Jesus warns the apostles of people who were doing works in His name but were not “with Him?” I surely don’t recall a “if they’re not against me, they’re for me” verse though.
Crusader, I understand your position and the thoughts you noted above. I once felt the same way you do, and I’ll grant you that the tone, humor, etc. on this site make the root discussions even harder to digest to those that bristle at its topics overall.
But I will honor you with accepting your stance and view on us, if you will honor me with accepting that many of the thousands (yes, check the stats above) of people here have come from where you are to a place of theological disharmony with the things “leaders” like Judah, Frank, etc. promote.
You and I can agree on one thing though for sure, my friend. That a day will come when we will look upon the glory of God, and then…finally…we’ll know how close or far away from the mark we ALL really were.
God bless.
[Comment ID #25489 Will Be Quoted Here]
Yeah, I would, but trying to have a conversation with a zealot is ultimately frustrating, because they always engage in “Truth Owning” as a perfect defense against logic.
So I decided immediately to chuck this lemming into the trashcan for intellectually bankrupt lemmings.
I hope Cowboy keeps him company in there.
[Comment ID #25483 Will Be Quoted Here]
Have you asked Jonah this question?
[Comment ID #25493 Will Be Quoted Here]
Points.
“He who is not with me is against me and he who does not gather with me scatters.” Matthew 12:30
are those Bibles that your getting your ideas from? c’mon now… it’s not hard too find.
It’s another “Schneidt-Headâ€.
“[Comment ID #25499 Will Be Quoted Here]
oh aren’t you clever. the more you write, the more i am persuaded of your superior knowledge. i hope to be just like you someday. oh wait- i don’t wanna sit around on my butt all day making fun of other people because they have success and influence and no one even knows my name. now that is a life to strive for! how sad. later, craig!!!:)
So then, shall we now discuss how JUDAH SMITH collaborated with his father WENDELL SMITH to deny food to starving children in the Grays Harbor area because WENDELL was upset with CLF FIRING Doug Cotton?
Or should we speculate on which toasty part of HELL is reserved for so-called PASTORS who deny food to children because those pastor’s FEELINGS were hurt?
I blame the leadership COMPLETELY because they took us up there and they knew what we were walking into (some had been up there before that’s how they knew to copy the revival and bring it home) and they just assumed it was of God they didn’t PRAY first and they knew they had very young, influential, naive (in things of Christ), and open kids ranging from 12 to 21 going up there into this craziness and when I say craziness I mean craziness!
wow, your website has felt so threatened that it has hacked into my loggin name to post under my name. real mature. and since when are we to judge who goes to heaven or hell? ur on thin ice, sir and i suggest u get your heart right before you may find urself in that toasty place yourself. say hi to hitler for me.
[Comment ID #25507 Will Be Quoted Here]
Rae it’s dramatic but true. And now they didn’t kidnap us but we were THOUSANDS of miles away from home, in another country, with NO contact home except through the leaders, and under false pretenses. Don’t demean and belittle my experience because you didn’t go through it. There’s no drama to be cut, I have actually holding back with everything that happened! I forgive them but just because I forgive it doesn’t mean I can’t warn other Christians and lead them to the word and God. That’s the least I can do.
Hey— how’s about not block quoting entire posts.. perhaps just make reference to them and let the reader go back and read it … or just quote a small portion..
It is EXTREMELY redundant and BORING and waste of space to scroll down through all the REPEAT postings!!
[Comment ID #25508 Will Be Quoted Here]
“say hi to hitler for me.”
I sort of figured you were his friend.
“It is EXTREMELY redundant and BORING and waste of space to scroll down through all the REPEAT postings!!”
Sorry.
[Comment ID #25528 Will Be Quoted Here]
But I like redundant and boring….. it’s what I live for.
“then we pay this kid’s salary as a Youth Pastor so he can spend money while away in Australia or his wife can spend it at Nordstrom?”
Aww man I wanna go to Australia! Did really get to go? I never seem to be able to find the time to go. Have enough money now but no time Plus, I love to fly but I can’t be on a plane that long even with the connections long plane rides make me nutty. I mean I already am nutty lol but you get my drift.
[Comment ID #25480 Will Be Quoted Here]
[Comment ID #25497 Will Be Quoted Here]
Okay, maybe I don’t get it, but how is “If they are not against me, then they are for me†the same as “He who is not with me is against me and he who does not gather with me scattersâ€?
The first says that as long as I don’t overtly disavow Jesus, then I will be with him and by extension gain salvation. So, belief in Jesus being the Son of God is not important, as long as I am not against the idea of that perhaps being true? The quote from Matthew, however, states that we either accept that he is the Son of God or else we are against him.
Perhaps this is just nitpicking, but the logical inferences in those two statements are not mutually inclusive of one another. As such, Judah’s persona and materialism could very well be an indication that he is not fully with God in his ministry. I am sure that Judah has done much good in his ministry, but the I-man has done a lot of good with his Cattle Ranch for Kids with Cancer and that didn’t save his job from his irresponsible, racial slur. How much more should the leader of CBC be worried about leading God’s children astray?
I believe every person has both good and evil in them.
I would be willing to venture that even Mother Teresa and Billy Graham upset someone at some time in their lives, with the possibility of that offended person turning from God as a result.
A key for me is to remember that no person is as God, none are perfect, and none deserve the worship and adulation that God deserves.
Despite what their “Apostles” think…
Pete…thank you…I almost followed up on this point a while back. The illogical take on the “if they are not against me, yada yada” thought never sat well with me. I just didn’t have the energy or time to follow up on it last week.
Crusader makes a false interpretation of Matthew 12:30 by saying if we are not against God than we are with Him. If JS is “for God” he will preach truth in humility and grace. He will be a vessel for the Holy Spirit to draw people to the Father, not to an enslavement of institutionalized theological fallacy, judgementalism, self-promotion, Biblically incorrect living, etc.
And how.
[Comment ID #25740 Will Be Quoted Here]
Some things are self evident.
And that particular phrase is revealing.
I believe that we now have irrefutable proof of the type of person this is.
It’s always so entertaining when they self-destruct.
LOL!
And continues………
Please ignore the troll.
I’m from the east coast, but over the summer of ’06 I spent some time visiting GC and hanging out with pastor Judah a little bit and let me tell you…
Judah is one of the most giving, genuine people I know. And I can honestly say that he doesn’t put on a show or pretend to be a someone he’s not. He is so sincere and his passion is for God, and to see the youth of America come to know Jesus Christ for themselves. And honestly, I hate that article, and he probably does too, because it spends so much time focusing on what Judah is doing instead of what God is doing. Judah, and the staff of GC seek God and are constantly praying for young people, and God has really done amazing things in that ministry. And so what if the man lives in a nice house? God has really blessed him and he gives most of what he makes to people who need it anyways. Look, we can sit here all day and you can talk about how awful Judah is or whatever, but at the end of the day… what are you doing to try to stop a generation from going down the tube? Pregnancy rate, suicide rate, homosexuality, crime rates, depression, a feeling of worthlessness–that’s all increasing, and while people like Judah and the staff of GC are trying to save a generation from self-destruction and let them know that there is a God who loves them…you are just sitting there…
Well, what do you say about Judah accepting his father’s decision to deny access to his warehouse of food to the hungry people of Grays Harbor?
In case you didn’t hear about that, Wendell Smith decided that City Church would no longer allow Christian Life Fellowship access to the food ministry that City Church runs, because Wendell Smith was upset with Christian Life Fellowship for removing Doug Cotton from the Senior Pastor position.
Wendell Smith retaliated against the poor and hungry people of Grays Harbor because Wendell Smith was angry with the Elders of Christian Life Fellowship.
What does Judah say about his father denying food to the hungry?
And what does the Bible say about people not giving food to the hungry?
” the staff of GC are trying to save a generation from self-destruction and let them know that there is a God who loves them…you are just sitting there… ”
Wow Kyle. I didn’t know you followed all of us around 24/7 watching our every moves. You’re the man lol.
In what way?
[Comment ID #25875 Will Be Quoted Here]
If he did that, he couldn’t afford the mortgage on that $400k house! He also talks in his sermons about his expensive watch collection. Sorry, but your argument about how he is so “giving” doesn’t hold water.
“If he did that, he couldn’t afford the mortgage on that $400k house! He
also talks in his sermons about his expensive watch collection. Sorry,
but your argument about how he is so “giving” doesn’t hold water.”
Oh come on you know better then that. They don’t any taxs they can do both lol. They are pulling in enough cheese to anyways lol. Also, I know I am going to get slapped by some here for this but…………..400K is not THAT much for a house? :runs for cover:
Chicken feed … mere chicken feed, Jennifer.
Still plenty of comfortable houses available for under $100K in the midwest – that is IF you don’t mind stifling heat, 3-4 months of snow and cold, humidity, bugs, unemployment, elmer fudd’s disease, etc.
[Comment ID #25876 Will Be Quoted Here]
Actually, most of the watches he has were given to him as gifts, and the house he is living in was totally a God thing… you might want to get the whole story before you bash someone…that would be the Godly thing to do…
[Comment ID #25874 Will Be Quoted Here]
Oh yeah, Jennifer! I was at the Thursday staff meeting at Judah’s house, and I went to the staff prayer meeting at the church on Wednesday! You guys rock!
[Comment ID #25885 Will Be Quoted Here]
I was being sarcastic……………….Kyle please leave lol. No I’m kidding.
“Actually, most of the watches he has were given to him as gifts, and the house he is living in was totally a God thing…”
How so? Kyle we have to rely on scripture. Please learn this NOW and not , 4, 5, 20 years from now. You will save yourself alot of human heartbreak! LOOK UP SCRIPTURE ON DISCERNMENT!! Matter of fact I will be back with some. It’s very important Kyle. The Lord is soon to come and he doesn’t want you to be fooled and there are strong diversions out there. Not saying Judah is one of the diversions but we must test what he preaches against the scriptures.
Kyle how old are you? Just asking because I’m young myself I just want to get a feel. You remind me of myself and my youth group 7 years ago. I just want you to be strong in the Lord…….not in a man or a church. You will get hurt. Judah is only human and evidentually slip up. I speak this way out of love.
Finally that comment is made. But, just wait. He will move up. And it’s true, this whole thing about him giving away most of what he makes is a joke. Any of these people giving anything at all is a joke. And anyway, his sermons are ridiculous. As are PF’s.
“Finally that comment is made. But, just wait. He will move up. And it’s true, this whole thing about him giving away most of what he makes is a joke. Any of these people giving anything at all is a joke. And anyway, his sermons are ridiculous. As are PF’s.”
Oh you mean like Pastor Creflo Another Dollar? (His middle initial is A o my friend renamed him this lol.) Apperantly the 1.5 million dollar house wasnt good enough.
I see the bigger picture as one of humility or lack thereof….
Gratefulness or lack thereof…..
Why is it necessary to boast about (reveal) the value of your home….
Why is it necessary to boast about (reveal) your extensive expensive watch collection……
Maybe not near NYC, or a few other urban areas. For the Pacific NW, that is certainly not on the low end, even if not extravagant. My point was, that for someone with a high school education, and whose income is derived entirely from the generosity of others, he seems to do extremely well. I have a college education and a very good paying job, but I can’t afford a $400k house. I would have to double my income to make that happen.
If you’re going to defend him, why do it half-assed? Please tell us how God gave him this wonderful house. Or who gave him the watches. If you’re going to make us looks like chumps, don’t wimp out on us.
Excellent point, LL. They boast about their $ucce$$ to validate their message, which is not the Gospel.
Kyle, let’s have a Bible Study! I’m just going to point out a few verses about boasting and you tell me whether or not Judah is out of line for the making the comments that he did.
Kyle, you did not address this:
Well, what do you say about Judah accepting his father’s decision to deny access to his warehouse of food to the hungry people of Grays Harbor?
In case you didn’t hear about that, Wendell Smith decided that City Church would no longer allow Christian Life Fellowship access to the food ministry that City Church runs, because Wendell Smith was upset with Christian Life Fellowship for removing Doug Cotton from the Senior Pastor position.
Wendell Smith retaliated against the poor and hungry people of Grays Harbor because Wendell Smith was angry with the Elders of Christian Life Fellowship.
What does Judah say about his father denying food to the hungry?
And what does the Bible say about people not giving food to the hungry?
“For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in”
That is hilarious! Yeah, I heard that “Creflo Another Dollar” is constantly praying for God’s blessing, financially of course!!, and waiting for God to answer. So, your right, nothing he has is good enough and never will be. That’s why it’s called greed. What if God decides to test them and take away everything? Then what?
It is funny that most of the people that visit the site and comment in defense of JS, never address any of the issues.
“Oh you mean like Pastor Creflo Another Dollar?”
And the friend that said this isn’t saved or close to it but he can see through the nonsense. How come it is at many times the unsaved are more clear minded and able of discernment then those who are saved?? Its sad. We Christians are soo ready to defend anyone who comes in the name of Christ out o fear of the Lord striking us down but not all of these people are even true Christians.
Oh, if only you guys know how famous you were up in Seattle too.
One Sunday when I went there a couple months ago he said that he didn’t care what some stupid blog said about him, he already read his Bible too many times to be convinced otherwise than what he knows about God. It took all the self-control I had to not laugh out loud then and there.
It been a few years since I heard it, but I understand the locals call him “Cashflow Creflo” …
Sam said:
Still plenty of comfortable houses available for under $100K in the midwest – that is IF you don’t mind stifling heat, 3-4 months of snow and cold, humidity, bugs, unemployment, elmer fudd’s disease, etc.
It is AMAZING — you can buy a nice house for less than 100k in the midwest that would cost at least 200k or probably more in the NW. I recently went to Ohio and went to the homes of several people who explained that they had bought their house for about 70k…these were 3 story homes with great features (wood floors, period/old entryways & moldings, large porches, attractive appearance overall). 70k in Portland would get you a one room shack with an outhouse connected if you are lucky. And probably not in a very good neighborhood.
Anyway, 400k is not a lot compared to 1 million…but you can get a very comfortable and very nice home for 400k in the NW.
So shall we all post the values of our homes? Then we could rate our importance in the caste system. But then there are factors of equity in the home as if you have it mortgaged to the chimney… are you really worth that much?
We could list the watches we own, # of pairs of shoes and handbags, vehicles…
OHHHHHHHH and how many car-garages our home has … :-}
I have 12 guitars. I need more.
I would like to state, for the record, that I don’t care how expensive Judah’s home is. Judah is entitled to make a living just as much as the rest of us, and in my opinion, $400k for a house isn’t that excessive.
He travels around and speaks at a lot of conferences which make lots of money and I’m sure they compensate him rather well for his time. As long as they can keep finding people to support them, than they can spend their money on whatever they want.
I don’t see the problem as being the house or the watches or any of that stuff. After all, even if Judah suddenly moved his family into a 1 bedroom apartment it wouldn’t change the fact that his sermons focus more on himself (and his sex life) than on the Word of God.
The problem is his lack of true Gospel teaching, which ends up making his sermons more harmfull than good. It is painful to watch America’s Youth believe they are being fed truth, when in fact all they are getting is worthless hype.
I do see it as being a problem when that is all he talks about including on his myspace page. Checked that out a while back and he says nothing of his love/passion for the Lord. Just his time piece affinity and that he has disciples. That’s nice that he doesn’t care about what a blog says about him, but does he care about what kind of example he is setting? It’s obvious what takes first place in his life. It is sad.
For what it’s worth that $400k home was purchased five years ago. Down here in California a lot of homes have doubled in price since 2002, so what’s it worth now? Second, how does a youth pastor with two small kids make enough money to have a watch collection. Since when do youth pastors get that type of money, must be quite the steward with his money.
“…he gives most of what he makes to people who need it anyways.”
THAT IS TOTAL BULLSHIT
“…he gives most of what he makes to people who need it anyways.â€
Well, he sure as heck isn’t giving it to the hungry people in Grays Harbor.
And neither is WENDELL SMITH.
To be fair, he has little/nothing to do with that MySpace page – it’s a tribute page put up by a Judah groupie … even so, that’s a gay picture of him …
[Comment ID #25949 Will Be Quoted Here]
Umm a Judah “Apostle” according to the page.
So, you agree that’s a gay picture?
LOL!
Maybe JS wrote that, maybe he didn’t. Either way, we know what is important to him.
Both of those pics are gay pics. The weird facial expressions make it worse.
He use to be cuter than that lol.
There’s more Judah fun at his Virb site (I have no idea what that is, by the way).
I wish this thread had been titled:
Judah Smith and His MOJO Miracle
It kinda sounds like the Christian version of Austin Powers – the Spy who Shagged me
I think it’s interesting that the threads which have the longest life are all the ones that are about Judah. I wonder what we are to infer from that. I bet he just has the highest percentage of cyber-savvy individuals under his “spiritual cover” than any of the other pastors who get singled out.
I suspect you’re right. That and his supporters are passionate and young. They will comment believing that it will actually change our minds.
[Comment ID #25956 Will Be Quoted Here]
You cannot argue against FACT.
[Comment ID #25973 Will Be Quoted Here]
Or children who haven’t learned not to walk into the lions den … when I was a kid, I couldn’t be told nothin’ – my kids when they were teenagers couldn’t be told nothin’ – and like Solomon said ‘there ain’t nothin’ new under the sun’ …
[Comment ID #25980 Will Be Quoted Here]
Young people are the easiest to control and manipulate.
They have not yet learned to be skeptical of extragavent claims from people who speak in grandiose terms, but who never have a concrete plan to attain that which they speak of.
Sam,
My boyfriend owns about 16+ guitars and he has to practice some serious self control not to buy more.
[Comment ID #25985 Will Be Quoted Here]
You just HAD to tell me that, didn’t you?!?
You know, I think you’re boyfriend and me should make a MySpace page together and we’ll talk about all our guitars – you know – like Judah talks about his watch collection.
I have quite a collection of picks, too. 
Sam,
Here is my boyfriends music page:
http://www.myspace.com/benjamindewey
He also has a picture of himself with his favorite guitar of all time on his normal page:
http://www.myspace.com/spiderbridge
If you send him an email he will be more than happy to talk about them! His favorite subjects are guitars, playing guitar, comics, Kelly Joe Phelps and me. He does get a lot of messages but just mention that you know me (sort of
) and then you will have brought up two of his favorite topics!
The boy’s on a whole ‘nother level, JT. Really enjoyed his tunes.
I imagine there’s a stack of Stefan Grossman mags laying around his apartment, eh?
Sam
“Young people are the easiest to control and manipulate.”
Ad thats why JS gets the most scrutinity/attention. His whole personality/speech/mannerisms are geared towards manipulating these kids for his zombie crew. Eventhe way he dresses is soo mapped out. I saw a pic of him the other day with some white pants on and I busted out laughing wow………..a little too tight. Other things too.
Judah Smith has carefully crafted a public persona geared towards impressing young people.
He is portrayed as being very “Cool” and very successful, and he promises his followers that they too can be “Cool” and successful.
What Judah Smith never mentions is that if his daddy didn’t run the company Judah works for, Judah would be asking:
”You want fries with that?”
Sam,
I asked my boyfriend about Stefan Grossman and while he knows who he is (told me about him in extensive detail actually), he hasn’t studied his music.
Seriously, send him a message — you guys will have no end of sharing your favorite guitarists and songwriters.
True, true!!!! Family business, that’s it.
And, you have to feel sorry for his wife. In amost every picture that I have seen of him, the arrogance is overwhelming.
It’s nepotism in it’s purest form.
Hire everyone in your family and pay them enormous salaries.
“And, you have to feel sorry for his wife. ”
I feel bad for her and then I don’t I feel bad for her because no matter what she will always have to play the happy satisfied wife. I however don’t feel bad for her because she knew what she was gettig into…….I don’t think she knew it would be this bad. How would you feel if your husband was a complete character?!
If he wants to talk about sex to the younger crowd use some sense about it and do it in a controlled setting in some sort of class not in the pulpit.
Plus, anyone that talks about it THAT much isn’t really doing it that much.
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She knew he was a snake when she picked him up and held her to her bosum.
In my opinion, any spouse who talks about their sex life is violating the privacy of the other spouse, which is a very dishonorable thing to do.
His wife should start talking about her non existent sex life and how there is never any hot water.
[Comment ID #26051 Will Be Quoted Here]
Guys like Judah who talk about how much they are getting are usually not getting anywhere near that much.
And even if he is, his wife should be horrified that he is violating her privacy in this way.
Definitely, he is showing her no respect. I think it’s great for him to speak about purity, but you don’t have to get THAT personal. It’s one thing to mention that you waited, but it’s a different story when you start talking about the details of your so called animalistic sex life. I don’t think that JS will ever take to heart what is written on this blog or anything that is said to him. I KNOW that I am having more fun.
Also, I wasn’t aware of this. That is a bold lie to tell.
[Comment ID #25943 Will Be Quoted Here]
Do you listen to his sermons weekly?
No. I’ve only listened to 3 or 4 but so far they are all the same. If you know of any good solid Biblical sermons by Judah that I should listened to let me know. I’ll check them out.
This is seriously the best thing that can be done with your time. Sure, i don’t know you, but stop whining about other people and actually DO something, this place is pathetic, and you’re wasteing your lives bitching like 14yo. Wake up to yourselves and wake up to God. This is a fantastic man of God who is preaching the gospel of Christ in a way that is new and thousands of kids are coming to know Christ through this. GET USED TO CHANGE. Stop acting like the Pharisees and judging blindly. I’m glad you’re all such wonderful examples of Christ.
No he’s not. He’s the son of a man who allows people to go hungry because of a personal grudge, and Judah, if he WERE a man of God, would confront his father for starving the hungry people in Grays Harbor in order for Wendell Smith to fulfill a petty, personal vendetta.
That is not the actions of a man of God, it is the actions of a COWARD.
Reformed Pope, go on to Generationchurch.org and click on “audio archive” at the top. Then under Special Events, click on Generation Conference March 2007. “View Archive” Then Download the sermon by Judah entitled “Mistaken Love”. Listen to it and tell me what you think
Ok, but I am much more interested in Chelsea’s sermon “How is your love life.”
I just read through this who topic and a couple of others. I am not a blogger. To be honest its new to me. I guess I would be called a “troll”???
I found it interesting that a blog site that was started against cbc-(well I dont know if against is the right word?) anyways, I noticed the top three most commented subjects are all on the city church or judah smith. I can tell some of the bloggers are just having fun with it but there are a few of you that are obviously upset, hurt, devestated etc. My only comment is do not let a root of bitterness take hold of you. Bitterness will just ruin your life.
Love God and Love people. Thats what we are called to do. If we can do that…I think we can get more done in our world. Peace.
totally agree w/ “wow”.
U guys gotta be careful. Im a fan of Judah, but i see that you guys do have some merit….i would just be careful not become pharisees. just cause u dont have a 400k house doesnt mean thats Judahs fault. Its just sad to see all you guys that have never met the guy once. judge his entire life on 2 or 3 messages you heard him preach….idk…thats almost funny 2 me.
What’s funny to me is the inability of anyone from GC to spell or use punctuation.
PS. JB: If you had actually read anything around here you would have seen that many people here do/did know Judah/Doug personally, and “own” houses worth more 400k. Thanks for keeping the topic alive though!
JB,
WTFWJD is quite correct in his assertion about the commentators here at City Business. I knew Judah personally. Oh, and his house was worth $800,000 when he purchased it (although it is not under his name for some reason).
I think the reason why people from GC cannot spell anything correctly is because GC does not really attract the educated types. Judah is far from being an educated man, and I don’t think I know one person in leadership in GC who could accurately and consistently exegete Scripture. Just say “historical critical method” to a GCer and they will give you a blank stare – say “Christological hermeneutics” or “demythologization” and they might even turn white.
So JB – my advice to you is to buy yourself a book on Biblical exegesis (not from the City Church bookstore please, but a real book) and memorize all of the exegetical fallacies. Next time you hear Judah speak you will be surprised at how many fallacies he incorporates in just a 40 minute period – it will be worth your money. Bonus! Check Church history to see if his message is even close to anything held or taught by a major Church father, leader, or theologian. Read Augustine, Irenaeus, Aquinas, Calvin, Luther, Owen, Barth, Brunner, Hauerwas… anyone!
Good luck, and may the Rhema Word of Faith force be with you
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Actually, most of us have met Judah or know Judah, and some of us have known him since he was young. And it isn’t about the house. If that’s what you think then you have no idea why we blog. I know Christians who live in million dollar homes that I have no problem with. It’s the fact that he’s up on the pulpit preaching to young people and exalting Judah Smith, not Jesus Christ. I don’t care how much your house is worth, what kind of car you drive, really non of it means anything – but bragging about it to a bunch of high school age kids under the pretense of Christianity is disgusting.
Thanks for your post though. I mean, if you had read through all of these responses you’d see all of the Judah-lovers harking on the same two points that you’ve brought up, and us pointing out that we don’t really give a **** if he has a $2 million dollar mansion or he lives in a shack, and we all know Judah.
Actually, I do take exception (besides the unbiblical teachings) with a pastor (or YOUTH pastor) living in a lavish home. I believe there is a certain accountability when it comes to a non-profit organization such as a church. The bible specifically warns that those who teach will face double scrutiny, and therefore in my opinion should seek to live their lives circumspectly rather than flaunting their wealth (and expensive taste in clothes).
Not that I’m saying pastors should live in poverty, but I would say take the approximate median income of the congregation (not that there’s any way to accurately track this unless you ASK for their income level) and live within those parameters.
Living in opulence is a slap in the face to the people who give 10% (and more) sacrificially to the church week after week. The pastorate is supposed to be a CALLING to be obeyed, not a “get rich” business opportunity to go after (or in the case of all these pastors who “pass on” the pastorate to their kids….a “family business”).
[Comment ID #27151 Will Be Quoted Here]
Very well stated. I agree 110%.
joebib
FormerACCmember said:
“Not that I’m saying pastors should live in poverty, but I would say take the approximate median income of the congregation (not that there’s any way to accurately track this unless you ASK for their income level) and live within those parameters.”
That is a good idea, but I’m pretty sure that there are some people who attend The City Church who have a lot of money–enough people with enough money to throw the median off balance. So the pastors there might end up back in the same bracket they are in now.
Is this why Paul said if what you are eating or drinking may offend someone
than don’t do -causing them to stubble and ‘messing up their walk.’
Aside from all the obvious integrity issues of not being accountable to those
you are supposedly serving –how exactly is this situation any different?
The mere fact that this blog has to go over and over this topic with people who are obviously offended and made to stumble around in the dark asking why is a sign right there.
So Dear Judah lovers and those from this group–take it to your leader. Your
lifestyle and skimpy accountability to the people is making some stumble. Look right here for the proof.
Which brings us to another topic from their church if they think we’re off base:
what exactly is that townhouse in Washingtion DC for again –we only got the
sketchiest of information. Please give us your brochure or papers concerning this —you are claiming to be a 503C after all –isn’t that correct? Or do you pay taxes on all you take in? Come on and answer–
before you make me stumble again!
[Comment ID #8376 Will Be Quoted Here]
$410,000 thousand on the Eastside will not get you much at all..
Thats the going price for an average house, back in ’02 $410k might have been a little more than average, nothing too out of the ordinary or extremely super fancy, just a regular house in a regular neighborhood, probably close to his church, to make it convenient. $410k for the Eastside is NOT AT ALL anything special. Bill Gates lives on the Eastside, not the same side of the east side that Smith does, because Gates’s house is surrounded by Multi-million dollar houses. But that should still give you an idea that $410 isnt really much to get all excited about. The broke reporter just got jelous. If youre from seattle im sure you know that a house for $410 is pretty standard.
I’m a real estate appraiser, I know this for a fact.
I love facts… my favorite myth
Actually I think we have already established the fact that Judah’s house is closer to one million dollars, which makes it probably the nicest house that any youth pastor in Seattle lives in. Since material wealth is the chief point of their ministry then I guess Judah’s house is simply a continuity.
Shalom
I respect the FACT that it must take a lot of WORK for these CCers to continually MISS the point.
his house is nowhere near a million……..
It must take a lot of WORK for these CCers to continually MISS the point.
Maybe the point is ….. PRIDE GOETH BEFORE A FALL.
I have always been taught, way back from childhood from my parents even, that people brag about their possessions and abilities (or hoped for abilities or made up abilities) because they are tremendously insecure.
Am I saying/insinuating that Judah and many in his circle of “prestige” are insecure……
The new lurkers/posters who are defending his insecurity and immaturity and indiscretion…. he is an upstart (trying to use a nicer word) trying to be in the big leagues, and succeeding in some areas it appears. Are us old timers jealous?? Hardly… Disgusted?? Probably. Disgusted that the cycle of exploiting young believers, new believers, any believers, unsaved, you name it… has not stopped and that Judah is perpetuating the cycle. And has no humility to keep his private life and his sexual life and his finances private and anything else he flaunts from the platform.
He is a symbol, a face-to-face symbol, of what is out there all over the Kingdom – world – whatever, who is exploiting the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Yes, many others are wearing the same shoes he is and doing the same sort of thing, but we do not have first hand knowledge of them as we do with people we have known over the years and such.
Um…. serj….
Yes his house is near one million. I believe it somewhere around $800,000. I looked it up myself with my real estate agent friend. Oh, and it is not under his name. You might be thinking of his OTHER house that he rents out.
Sorry, wrong again
I wasn’t aware of the one that isn’t in his name………how do you know about it? And what name IS it in?
(living life said: “I have always been taught, way back from childhood from my parents even, that people brag about their possessions and abilities [or hoped for abilities or made up abilities] because they are tremendously insecure.â€)
I agree with you wholeheartedly, LL.
This can be evidenced by simply turning on the TV to any of the religious channels; what passes for “preaching†today by most senior pastors/conference speakers, etc., is nothing more than polished “talking points,†marketing-wise tactics taken from secular public-speaking seminars/manuals, which are then slickly re-packaged for Christian audiences.
Oh yes, with a couple of Scriptural verses thrown in here and there just to give it the semblance of being biblical, and to remind the listeners that they are indeed in church.
Speakers today seem to prefer telling jokes rather than expositing the Word of God.
They re-label sinners as “seekers,” and sin as “goofs†or “shortcomings†or “needs.â€
People aren’t commanded to repent, it is instead suggested they “take a look inward.â€
They say God may not be too “happy†with “seekers†(that is, sinners), rather than use the word the Bible does: “wrath†(see Psalm 7:11, 21:8-9, Rom. 1:18, 2:5; Rev. 6:16-17, etc.).
And good luck trying to find a reference to “sin,†“iniquity,†“hell†or “eternal punishment†in their speeches, but rather an abundance of positive words like “love†“forgiveness,†and “acceptance,†all of which are excellent words in themselves, but which are defined beyond/apart from the biblical context.
They enjoy the telling of countless personal stories, all the while bringing more and more attention to themselves, their wives, kids, and families, rather than focusing attention on God, and relating stories from the Bible.
We find out unnecessary information about their private lives, among other things, their eating, sleeping, bathing and sexual habits. Just what I came to church to hear about.
They try their best not to offend any potential seekers/tithers, instead presenting a sanitized, watered down “gospel.â€
Which is the opposite of what Jesus and the Apostles did (Mark 10:17-25; Acts 8:20, 13:1-11, etc.).
Their bestselling books have very little discussion of the Scriptures or theology, but are rather feeling-oriented manuals on finding one’s best life/purpose, and achieving the American Dream.
They seek to have super-sized, mega-churches which are filled with people living lives so similar to the world, that it is difficult to tell the difference between the two.
Worship/song leaders also seem to thrive on the power and attention directed at them. Also, observe the similarity in music, beat, etc., which sounds no different than a secular concert.
In checking out their respective doctrinal statements, these churches apparently believe everything in general, but nothing in particular.
A far cry, in my view, from the example of biblical preaching/teaching described in the New Testament, especially as seen in the Gospels (Matthew 5-7, Matthew 13, etc.) and Acts (Acts 2:14-30, 7:1-56, 13:16-41, etc.).
OK, rant over.
joebib
I couldn’t say it better.
Oh, Serj. The name that the house is under is still a mystery to me. It could possibly be owned by the church or Judah’s father in law, because it is not under his name, Chelsea’s name, or one of his parent’s names. I know about all this because I spent 6 years of my life in Judah’s ministry and I was on staff at the City Church – I know all the dirt – which isn’t always a good thing.
His rental house in Redmond is under his name – it’s a nice little place and probably close to 400k due to location. His house that he has been in for almost 2 years now is in Bellevue on 140th.
Hope that helps
CTP
must be a nice house if its on 140th, good for him.
I guess we’ll see if it is ultimately is good for him.