The leadership of MFI is challenging the legal rights of the elders at Christian Life Fellowship to remove their senior pastor from his position of leadership.
A couple of weeks ago, the elders at Christian Life Fellowship in Aberdeen, Washington asked their senior pastor, Doug Cotton, to resign due to his anger problems. Mr. Cotton signed the resignation form and quietly left the church.
However, the leadership of MFI felt that this removal was unbiblical and not in compliance with MFI. And as such, Wendell Smith and Dick Iverson sent letters to the elders reprimanding them for their actions.
In addition, the former pastor of the church, Mr. Cotton, sent a letter to his congregation declaring that he is no longer leaving the church and is still their pastor.
This story is still developing. But a reader tipped me off to MFI's actions and also sent me a copy of the letters prepared by Mr. Smith, Mr. Iverson and Mr. Cotton. I will copy the letters in full in the comment section of this blog. But I want to share a few excerpts, so you can get a feel for how MFI controls churches within its affiliaition.
Mr. Smith writes to the elders:
I am writing to appeal to you as Elders of Christian Life Fellowship to reconsider the action you have taken against Pastor Doug. I am confident you could not find even three Pastors who would agree with what you have done in aligning yourself to remove your Pastor from his position based on your perspective. Not only is your decision weak legally and constitutionally but you have uncovered your congregation spiritually and this presumptuous step will certainly split the church.
Mr. Iverson sends a letter to the entire Congregation: (notice the veiled threat of legal action)
The Bible does say in 1 Timothy 3:19-20 not to receive an accusation against an elder except there be two or three witnesses and then if he has sinned he is to be rebuked openly that others may fear. Listening intesnely to the elders I found there is not anyone who has two or three witnesses that charges him with a sinful disqualification of his senior pastor position. No pastor is perfect but we must abide by the Scripture and the legal constitution which has also been violated.
Lastly, here is Mr. Cotton's letter:
Until I am directed otherwise, I am the pastor of CLF and will continue to lead this church with integrity and accountability.
Letter from Doug Cotton to his Congregation.
Dear CLF Congregation,
I was hoping that, by this week, I would be able to address you from
the pulpit. However, this mode of communication will have to suffice for
now. There are many things that have transpired over the last three weeks and I fear that many of you are confused and that is understandable.
The truth is, it will be difficult to totally clear up all that has happened, if we want to cover each other’s transgressions. This message is to primarily let you know where things stand with me as your pastor. So here it goes.
God set me in this church over 30 years ago. Over the years I have
served the vision of this church and its people in many different capacities.
I have been blessed to serve you through CLF as your Senior Pastor for
the past fifteen years and I look forward to many years to come. I
believe God called me to this place, at this time, to serve you, to pastor you, and to love you. The last three weeks have been the most challenging of my life.
As I have walked through them, I have become more aware than ever of
the call of God on my life to Grays Harbor and beyond. I have also been
reminded of my great love for you – which has been the reason for
leading, pastoring and serving you to the best of my ability over the years.
I love you. I love you with all my heart – and I will always love you. I
love this church. I love this city and I openly declare my affection for you.
It was never my intention to resign as Senior Pastor of CLF. I didn’t
want to on Labor Day evening nor do I wish to now. I believe I have been
called and ordained by Jesus Christ to lead CLF. I am completely devoted to God’s standard of righteousness and integrity for His leaders, and I am
accountable and submitted to the apostolic (spiritual oversight) authority in my life and over this church.
I know it was communicated from the pulpit last Sunday that I would be
starting the Meier Clinic this week. I want you to know that it has been postponed as we work through some of the issues with our leadership.
I also wanted to address you before I move forward with the plans to
address the needs in my personal life and leadership. I believe it’s also
important for you to know that I do not agree with all the accusations
that have been levied against me and have been advised by apostolic
oversight to postpone this process until these internal issues are worked out.
Let me be clear, I am completely committed to the process of growth, change, and the working of godly character in my life. I am very aware of
personal needs and weakness. The apostle Paul spoke of his own weaknesses when he said, “I don’t mean to say that I have already achieved these things or that I have already reached perfection! But I keep working toward that day when I will finally be all that Christ Jesus saved me for and wants me to be.
No, dear brothers and sisters, I am still not all I should be,
but I am focusing all my energies on this one thing: Forgetting the past
and looking forward to what lies ahead, I strain to reach the end of the
race and receive the prize for which God, through Christ Jesus, is calling
us up to heaven.” (Philippians 3:12-14 NLT) While I may go forward with
plans to attend the Meier Clinic in the future, my highest priority is to
provide this church with strong, healthy leadership during this difficult
time.
Some may doubt my accountability in light of this action, however
there is no cause for doubt. I have been and will continue to be accountable to my wife, other pastors and apostolic leaders. The line of accountability has been strong throughout my ministry. There are many great friends and co-laborers in the ministry who have provided friendship, strength and personal accountability and I want to personally thank them for their kindness to Lois and I as they have loved, supported, and corrected us over the years.
I especially honor Pastors Wendell and Gini Smith of The City Church in Seattle, and Apostle Dick Iverson of Ministers Fellowship International (MFI). There are others, Pastor Dave Bryan, Pastor Marc Cargill, Pastor Rick Green and many others, are to many to list. I have opened my life to them as a book. They have helped me and walked with me through many decisions and challenges, including the challenges of these past few weeks. I have been accountable and open to them for many years and will continue to do so for years to come. They have confirmed God’s calling on my life to the ministry and to pastor this church.
Until I am directed otherwise, I am the pastor of CLF and will continue to lead this church with integrity and accountability. Let me also take this
opportunity to thank those who have sent us countless cards, letters, and emails of encouragement; this has impacted our hearts tremendously. Over these past weeks we have had the opportunity to experience firsthand what it is like to be loved by Jesus through your kind correspondences and the warm conversations of encouragement and support.
This next week, we are hoping the elders will agree to meet with us,
and with our spiritual/apostolic covering (Pastor Frank Damazio – the
co/vice chairman of MFI) to bring us back to the Bible and our by-laws as we all work through the process of restoration that was presented to you from the pulpit September 10th. We covet your prayers during this week.
As your pastor, I am asking you to hang in there with us. Continue to
support with your presence, your giving and your serving. The future
for CLF is bright! God has given us future and destiny. The prophet
Jeremiah prophesied about us when he said, “For I know the plans I have for you,” says the Lord. “They are plans for good and not for disaster, to give you a future and a hope.” We have a hope! We have a vision! We will step out of this difficult season and into the glorious presence of God. God is gong to heal us, restore us and we will go forward into our future
with faith and hope. God is good and He does all things well. Jesus
Christ will build His Church and nothing will be able to stop it. We believe
that what is impossible with men is possible with God and that the end of
our story will be better than the beginning.
In closing, please remember that our battle is not in the natural, but
is best fought on a spiritual plain. “10 Finally, my brethren, be strong
in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of
God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For
we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities,
against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against
spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.” (Ephesians 6:10-13) Please utilize the
spiritual gifts in prayer and intercession that God has showed to you during this important time of CLF’s history.
Thank you for listening to my heart. I love you and am praying for you, as I trust you are for us.
Gratefully,
Pastor Doug Cotton
P.S. We unfortunately do not have e-mail addresses for everyone in
the church. Please foreword this to as many people you know who consider CLF their home. I am also attaching e-mails from our pastoral oversight as confirmation of their support of the direction we have chosen.
Letter from Wendell Smith to the Edlers at CLF:
Dear Rick, Dan, Stan and Dan,
I am writing to appeal to you as Elders of Christian Life Fellowship to
reconsider the action you have taken against Pastor Doug. I am
confident you could not find even three Pastors who would agree with what you have done in aligning yourself to remove your Pastor from his position based on your perspective. Not only is your decision weak legally and constitutionally but you have uncovered your congregation spiritually
and this presumptuous step will certainly split the church. I fear the
very thing you wanted to avoid, you are going to produce.
Even if all the accusations you have raised are accurate, you have
foolishly exalted resolvable offenses to the level of pastoral
disqualifications. This violates both Matthew 18 and 1 Timothy 5:19.
If you proceed with this direction you will destroy both your church and
reputation in the community and damage the cause of the Gospel.
There are certainly alternatives- including greater accountability for
Pastor Doug, but I am confident this choice of yours is going to
backfire if you continue down this road.
As leaders in a church, you must act in faith and not in fear. Only
faith pleases God. I cannot envision this decision pleasing God or
bearing good fruit. There are other choices if you will humble
yourselves and admit it.
I know Pastor Iverson and myself (and I’m sure others) would love to
help you and Pastor Doug and we were deeply disappointed that you did
not consult us before making something like this public. We pray you
will humbly reconsider your actions, take biblical and Christlike
leadership and work toward reconciliation for the sake of your church
and the Gospel.
Sincerely,
Pastor Wendell Smith
Letter from Dick Iverson to the Congregation at CLF:
To the congregation of Christian Life Fellowship:
I greet you all in the name of Jesus who is Head of the Church who He loves and for whom he died.
My heart was deeply grieved when I spoke with all of the elders a few days ago. I spent over an hour on a conference call because I had heard they had confronted Pastor Dough with a dismissal charge removing him from the pulpit.
The Bible does say in I Timothy 3:19-20 not to receive an accusation against an elder except there be two or three witnesses and then if he has sinned he is to be rebuked openly that others may fear.
L
istening intensely to the elders I found there is not anyone who has two or three witnesses that charges him with a sinful disqualification of his senior pastor position.
As a spiritual father to your church for over 30 years I must ask you not to remove your pastor. No pastor is perfect but we must abide by the Scripture and the legal constitution which also has been violated.
I, with other spiritual men and women of God, will stand by you as a spiritual covering until this issue is totally resolved.
We love you all and you will be in our prayers.
In His name,
Pastor Dick Iverson
Chairman
Ministers Fellowship International
Has MFI (Iverson and Smith) even read their own Philosophy?
Important to note that the statement in the Philosophy uses the word “Accountability” just once, in the title. There is nothing in the body of the statement to suggest that MFI’s authority trumps the local churches authority. In fact, it says that the local churches authority should not be violated.
So it seems, based on their own statement of Philosophy where governance is concerned, that Smith and Iverson are just blowing smoke. They are the ones without authority it would seem.
…
The question I’d like to see asked is:
Who in the congregation has been hurt by the pastors anger? Why is the pastors use of anger in / over the congregation NOT seen by MFI as “spiritual abuse”?
Sam
Taken from the MFI Philosophy page (my emphasis added):
Samaritan beat me to it…sorry if I repeated stuff.
From their Affirmations page:
That last one MFI members would argue that that means everyone needs to be subject to the pastor. But I would argue it also means the pastor is accountable and subject to the elders and the church.
Pastor Cotton wrote:
The whole anger subject brings up a lot for me. In my experience / observation, where there’s anger in a ‘leader’, there’s the use of it as a weapon to control people. I’ve seen it in myself, my family, my former pastor, etc. I’ve spent a couple weeks in a Minirth-Meier Clinic myself to deal with anger, and depression, following the unexpected breakup of my 1st marriage.
Honestly, it is not easily dealt with – as anger so often goes to the core of a person – where it is deeply rooted in life-long hurts, issues, disappointments.
I’d find it very hard to believe that this is the first anyone has ever confronted him about it, and it probably isn’t the first time he’s backed away from seeking treatment for it. But that’s just a guess.
…
In my former church, people tiptoed around the pastor who had one of the worst anger problems I’ve ever seen. I witnessed him blow up in several committee meetings, and in fact it was his blow up in a meeting of the Worship committee that I refused the nomination to chair it. I was sitting with the pastor and 2 other men at one end of the table, where we were talking about the youth, and how they struggled to find relevancy in the die-hard traditional worship service. As we talked, the pastor became red, gnashed his teeth, and he panted a dog to control himself. I was fearful that the dude would have a stroke! Between his appearance and couple seething statements, it shut down all discussion and once again the committee rubber stamped the pastors agenda.
I’ve been on the receiving end of several sharp barbs from him, as have every other church member who has dealt with him on committee. The anger colored his messages, and oppressed the church through fear.
Pastor Cotton, it seems to me, has it backwards. Whatever issues he has to work out with the church, should come only after he works out whatever anger issues there are within himself.
That kind of anger is a sickness, that can only be dealt with by professional help of the sort that the Meier clinic can offer.
The Elders should be applauded for standing up to the guy, who I can only imagine, has used his anger to bully the congregation.
Jack
It’s great to see that MFI Pastors follow a strict code of accountability…
They will be accountable to whomever they please.
Also, I love this:
They wouldn’t be a part of MFI without all the giving.
[Comment ID #9251 Will Be Quoted Here]
Samaritan is still learning the ropes, FICM.
Just because Justin approved me to post new blogs, doesn’t mean I’m approved to post comments.
You just posted while my comment was in queue, waiting for approval.
Despite a few start-up glitches, I like this blogging stuff. Why, I would even go so far as to say that “I’m having more fun than Jonah!”
Sam
These posts raised alot of emotion for us in Boise as our ears perk up whenever anyone talks about ‘covering each other’ straight from John Bevere’s Undercover book. This was the #1 weapon of choice used to beat down any who would dare to question their leaders decisions or actions. I believe this hazy cloud will be analyzed as the ‘shepherding’ movement in new clothing.
When we needed help down here with accountability it was told to us that MFI was well aware of the spending problems – little to no accountability –but there was nothing they could or would do. Their congregation should be thrilled that their elders were in a position to voice a concern and try to see it through to their protection. So is this just a one way street? When does MFI get involved –only on the side of the Pastor? There was always an undercurrent of fear that prevailed here that an uprising might happen by one of their leaders –it happened anyways. So glad to be out of the parent-child type of relationship and where we are treated as adults.
Can someone explain “Spiritual Covering†to me? Because, from the research I’ve done it sounds like complete manipulation, but it appears to be one of MFI’s cornerstone beliefs.
Both Wendell Smith
and Dick Iverson
talk about this covering, but I want to know why?
What happens when your congregation is uncovered spiritually?
Why do I need a spiritual covering and what does it cover?
Isn’t Jesus our spiritual covering?
Weren’t his actions on the cross good enough?
Someone please, help me understand. If there is anyone out there who really believes in this, please, I’d like to get some genuine insight on the subject.
JP – there’s a book by Frank Viola called Who Is Your Covering that will explain it – the link is to Frank’s web site, and has a nice summary of the FALSE doctrine of covering.
Essentially, the covering doctrine maintains that every man needs to have a person who stands between them and the Lord, having some form of spiritual authority over you, holding you accountable, etc.
Yet, the wise man knows that he is in direct relationship with Jesus, led and taught by Jesus, and accountable to Jesus alone.
Jesus IS our true covering, and the only covering we need.
dorks
About time you came home. Where you been Magledon?
[Comment ID #9260 Will Be Quoted Here]
Free At Last wants to frame this comment. Amazing how one lone word can sum it up so well!
In all seriousness, though, when Wendell says to the elders “Even if all the accusations you have raised are accurate, you have foolishly exalted RESOLVABLE OFFENSES… “, wouldn’t you think that if these offenses had been RESOLVABLE, these discerning men wouldn’t have taken it to the level of ‘pastoral disqualification’? If there was a way to work with the guy, they would have done that by now and there’s a reason they felt they had no other choice but to do it this way.
Wow. There are certainly many issues embedded in this situation. Since I don’t know the pastor or elders of this church, I can only speculate as to the actual circumstances in the church, the behavior of the pastor, and the dynamics amongst the leaders.
What concerns me is the role that MFI is taking in this. As many of you mentioned, their own official documents preclude them from interfering in local church governance. However, it appears that MFI can insert itself wherever it wishes. How is this different than a denomination that has the power to instate and terminate pastors in certain churches? Perhaps MFI churches (the leaders) experience some of the same things that members of CBC and other MFI churches experience: peer pressure to “conform,” the sense that they must do whatever pleases those “above” them out of fear of rejection, snubbing, or being deemed those who have squandered God’s call on their lives. Just look at the language in the letter from Smith, who called the elders foolish, arrogant, stupid (because their decision will lead to a disastrous church split), rebellious/insolent (because they didn’t confer with MFI leaders before making a decision), and inordinately powerful (that this action will somehow “damage the cause of the Gospel). No wonder people in that culture do what they are told and what those in power wish; if they don’t, they will be dessimated.
One more thought: Much like battered women stay with their abusers, people stay in MFI churches and MFI churches stay in MFI. CRAZY! My hearts go out to them.
I didn’t choose my “name” because I love the Matrix movies or am some sci-fi nut. I chose it because I am SO GLAD that the Lord has freed me from the matrix of legalism. God, free us all, every one.
Matrix, I was thinking that very thought of battered women who are forced to stay with their abusers. Could it be that these elders were taking a stand as a protectional boundary of saying “no more”? Samaritan inferred that too when he asked why the pastors’ anger isn’t considered ‘spiritual abuse’ by MFI? Sounds like the pastor was willing and ready to cooperate with the elders according to the Daily World story and he wanted help and the elders were ready to HELP him. Seems as though they had reached a mutual understanding that was received by the people. The authoritarian stand he was railroaded into taking instead by the MFI leadership certainly isn’t going to help the anger problem. Isn’t anger usually an attempt of regaining control? If he’s forced into controlling this situation it will lead to more frustration and more of the same behavior.
Good Insights–I thought we had it bad here till I went to a ‘Set Free’ group at our new church and heard a story of church abuse that made mine look pale in comparison from someone who worked directly with their church leadership. They tried to divide her marriage and attempted to lure her daughter into a ‘youth compound’ – of apartments next door to the church when she decided to go off staff. Of course it was a MFI church with even more control issues than we experienced –and we thought that would be impossible! I suspected then this went deeper than our own congregation. Too bad we had to burden our new church with all our issues but at least they were kind. I found out later that one of the churches in town referred to us as ‘The Amway Church’ because of our
hard sell techniques. And this was from the Sr. Pastor!
Anger that leads to chronic outbursts is not a sickness. It is SIN. And sin has a cure. It is pride that causes us to want our own way so badly we will push it on others even if we have to hurt them. That congregation does not need to be “covered” by a man who is unwilling to confront his own sin. What the heck kind of covering is that?!
This situation is so familiar and I often thank God that He allowed our church (yes, an MFI church) to not just split but to completely fall apart. What a relief it was to lose that “covering” and truly find the Gospel! We need to pray for those people in that church. I hope their eyes are opening.
Anger is a sin?
Anger is an emotion / feeling, being inherently neither good nor bad. Men may act sinfully in response to the feeling of anger, or it can be used as an emotional barometer to warn a person and prompt a healthy response, such as self defense and preservation in a dangerous situation.
What can happen (according to Minirth-Meier, and other counseling resourses I’ve read), particularly in older men who learned from our culture that showing emotion is unmanly, is when confronted with any situation that causes emotion, a person can skim over the initial more subtle feelings of sadness, regret, disappointment, frustration, and go straight to the power-emotion: anger – in part because it’s a familiar feeling – and the response to anger in men is often “take action” – be the ‘hunter gatherer’ – conquer the problem. Anger invokes the “Rambo” response in a lot of men.
As the ladies above have observed about battered wives, I can only agree, as a former battered husband. Today, and for the life of me, I couldn’t tell you why I stayed in my 1st marriage, except for my ‘christian’ views on divorce which required me to stick it out – and of course, the love for my children and deep committment to keep their family intact. Even after 16 years of abuse, I didn’t end the marriage, but rather labored to keep it intact.
Over the years, a person on the receiving end of abuse, keeps re-setting the counter … every time emotional or physical abuse was heaped on me, it was the ‘first time’ in my mind – because I was always looking for the things she did, that fulfilled my expectation of a normal, loving and healthy marriage relationship. And so her periodic ‘acting out’ was something I viewed as an abberation from normal, and I quickly forgave it. But! At a price. Seeds were sewn every time – bitter seeds – and anger grew from them. Deep seeded anger.
You are right, it can be cured. But it is not an instant cure. Private counseling, a men’s group for battered husbands (try to find 5-6 men who will admit that!), prayer, fasting, and of course, God’s divine intervention and the fullness of the Holy Spirit to displace the anger. In my case Jonah, the Father had to break me completely. Christian’s are often taught to expect the quick fix for personal problems – everything can be resolved (healed) in the time it takes to utter the “Sinner’s Prayer”
Yet the reality is for most personal issues, like problem anger, it takes years to deal with it. Even so, you don’t get rid of it, it remains – it’s just toned down, and you learn to respond healthily to it.
Now the only anger I ever experience, is when I smack my finger with a hammer, hit my head on the trunk lid, receive spam ($%#@!), read ignorant blog posts, etc.
I’m much better now! 
Seriously – there’s still occasional anger, but it’s appropriate, and through counselling I learned to act on it in a more healthy way.
There’s nothing to be ashamed of in seeking help / counseling. In fact, Pastor Cotton may find his ‘spiritual’ position of ‘authority’ (yech!) and ‘covering’ an obstacle to getting help. How can God’s “set man” over that congregation have such a problem as to need in-patient / psych-ward type help? It’s stigmatic in this society – more so in a church environment with the added component of spiritual maturation / authority.
Being broken (humbled) through a situation like that is a GOOD thing. It’s not just once that a person is broken like that, it is renewed every time they talk/think about it. He’d be a better man for facing that anger and dealing with it.
Jack
What I take from this is that when a minister joins MFI, the elders/church relinquish control and give control to MFI. This is something they might want to include in the brochure.
Someone also pointed out that in Dick Iverson’s letter he mentions the need for “two or three witnesses”. Yet even though several elders confronted Doug Cotton; this doesn’t count as “two or three witnesses” to Iverson. It’s another convenient interpretation of the Bible.
Lastly, this isn’t about love or about “spiritual covering.” This is about power. If Doug Cotton leaves the church. MFI loses its influence over CLF. So MFI is trying to keep Doug in power.
Whatever. We’ll see whether it works. In the meantime, MFI is looking pretty creepy.
I don’t even know where to start…
The arrogance and audacity of these men is astounding to the say the least. The attempt to control and manipluate the People of God makes me sick to my stomach. Maybe we should return to the days where us lowly laypeople aren’t allow to try to read and interpret the Bible for ourselves!
I also have to laugh about this self-imposed wrong theology repeated by both men (and widely propagated around MFI circles) that they are now “without covering.” Although, that concept alone leads to so much control that it’s really not funny. Good thing they warned them that they are “Out of covering” so people can be scared back into accepting this man as their Pastor again!
Kudos to you Elders for stopping the abuse. Stay strong elders and don’t bow to the pressure of MFI. This isn’t the first time (or the last time) that MFI has tried to exert their infulence and control a situation in favor of a failing or sinful pastor. Cover up stories abound if you look for them. In fact you should probably take the next step and remove your church from MFI, there are plenty of other Normal, theologically grounded, non-Mafia like Church organizations to be a part of out there. My eyes were opened to that went I left the MFI circle.
More fear (Out of covering), more intimidation (“You are outside of your legal rights”)…….when will it stop!
MFI and Pastors, Stop Intimidating and Attempting to Control the People of God. They are NOT yours to control!!!!!!!
You know, that one web site is “MINISTERS Fellowship International” – looks like it’s the MINISTERS who join it, not their churches.
Most towns, where there are more than a couple churches, have a town-wide ministerial association. What do they usually say the assoc. is for? Ecumenism or fellowship, never for governing / ruling. Regardless – that’s the ministers thing – they don’t have power over the church – though I ‘spose they can have some measure of influence on the community as a whole.
So, if a church gives an MFI affiliated pastor the boot, is the church still an MFI church? What I read on the MFI site suggests that churches were originally INDEPENDENT charismatic churches, and the only reason for MFI was some kind of networking for pastors.
I hope CLF sticks to their guns – Pastors can be real douchebags.
I’m so amazed at Jack who tells us these things he went through and then explains what he learned from it. Most guys are so afraid to admit these types of things that our society has set up as weakness. Jack’s probably the strongest amongst us and his voice is palatable. So thanks Jack.
Next subject: In this undercover doctrine, is it ‘under cover’ or ‘cover up’? (if someone already asked this question, forgive me if I’m repeating it.) What I’m wondering is if this under cover thing is all a ploy to get the people to cover up what leadership does wrong as to continue to enable the behaviour. What’s so confusing is, in our christian culture we are taught that love covers a multitude of sins, rightly so; but when it’s twisted to mean cover up just so know one will know, then it gets into this serious dysfunction and cult-like mind control thing. My hat goes off to those who go undercover (as in undercover agent) to uncover all the cover-up!
Good point, Unscrupulous! MFI is intended to be a “fellowship” of ministers and not a denomination. By their own definition, there is no such thing as an MFI church, just pastors who are members of MFI. That being said, they require membership dues based on church size! (I guess some pastors are better than others? Or maybe it’s just plain greed on the part of MFI.)
I wonder how many church members would be happy (upset) to hear that a portion of their giving has gone to an organization that doesn’t support the needs and desires of the church? How many pastors draw their MFI dues from the church’s general fund instead of their own pockets? I’m willing to bet it’s a high percentage.
FICM said:
September 27th, 2006 at 12:48 pm
I thought so.
TCRefuge said:
Oh, stop it.
There’s only one reason for sharing like that, for whomever it may help.
So, how’s things in the ‘spud state’ ?
Wow, it is amazing that so many people can take what they read as truth and form an opinion about things that do not concern them. I am involved in this situation and know the details from both sides of the story. What you have been given here is one side with a twisted view of what is really going on. Lines from letters written have been taken out of context. As I am reading each post, it seems that there is a common thread between all of you; past unresolved hurts. Dragging someone’s name through the mud over and over is not beneficial to anyone involved in this situation. I will not go in to details, as that would be inappropriate for me to do so. But I can assure you, if you in fact had ALL the correct details from ALL parties involved, you may see this situation in a different light…..
And you are…?
A member of the church as well as a friend to many of the individuals involved, on both “sides”
So let me see if I understand you, Honesty. We have incomplete/incorrect information, but you won’t point out what parts are wrong. We’re just supposed to take your word for it. Then you enhance your credibility by saying the only reason we smell a rat here is because we’re blinded by bitterness. Thanks for that anonymous and totally unsubstantiated assessment.
Has it occurred to you that the prevailing opinion for this little episode might have something to do with reading the ENTIRE letters from MFI higher ups and seeing their contents run completely contrary to established MFI standards? For me, it doesn’t matter whether Doug Cotton was removed for legitimate reasons or not. This is all about MFI honchos using moral and legal strong arming tactics to get their way, and I find that deplorable. If you would like to debate that point, I would be very interested to see you defend their letters given MFI’s established rules regarding member churches affairs.
Honesty….
I think that by your church allowing their dirty laundry to be aired publically in The Daily World, or whatever your local newspaper is, that they set themselves up for all kinds of conjecture.
Personally, I think church business like this needs to be kept in the church, not printed in a public forum such as the NEWSPAPER.
It is indeed unfortunate how this all has progressed since the initial “incident.” However, there is a bit of honest/true speculation into the motives and actions of MFI “leadership” and the way they are structurally set up and function.
I have known the “leadership” people of MFI for nearly 30 years and have followed the genesis of how their modus operandi how it has evolved over time.
It appears to be that the “senior pastor” (or ex?) does indeed have anger problems and has allowed them to inappropriately interfere with pastoring his church. That is very unfortunate indeed and I hope and pray all parties involved seek out the help they need to overcome the problems it has all created.
This is a “private” blog of sorts. Yes it is in a public forum. But you are not forced to read it or to believe anything that is printed here. Much of what is said is said tongue-in-cheek. Much of what is said appears to be coming from playing “devil’s advocate,” trying to get people to think outside the box…think for themselves instead of what SO MANY churches have pounded into them to believe carte blanc without reason or questioning or searching on their own.
So….if you don’t agree what is printed in this blog, DON’T read it and DON’T get your hackles up.
So, clear it up for us then. So far, all we have are the words of the MFI pastors saying that Cotton has done nothing wrong and the elders are out of line. What would make 8 church elders want to give the pastor the heave-ho? This is no trivial matter, and it seems unlikely that 8 leaders of the church would collude to displace a pastor they merely didn’t like. Let alone explain it to the entire congregation, and have Cotton himself confirm it in front of them.
Was he lying when he wrote his apology? Does he now deny that this happened? Or does he recant his statements? Did the reporter get this wrong? Nope, in his letter he confirms the issues at hand and denies that it’s something serious enough to remove him from his place of “spiritual authority”. Never mind the people he hurt, never mind that people question his ability to lead, never mind that he neglects getting help until this is “resolved”, just make sure y’all keep coming and giving. To him this is just a power play. His entire letter is geared towards reaffirming his place of leadership and not about resolving offenses.
To say there is more than meets the eye here is probably true, but even with more details I don’t see how you can justify Cotton’s actions in the light of what’s happened. To stubbornly refuse to step down in spite of the demands of your own leadership team seems rather arrogant and controlling. You know, he sounds alot like some other recently deposed leader in a state of denial: “I am still the leader of Iraq!”
Honesty, you’re missing our point. We (at least most of us) aren’t taking issue with or even forming opinions about the “situation” at hand. What we ARE taking issue with and forming opinions about is MFI’s role in it. Get it?
Can you imagine the roller coaster ride this congregation will be on now when a reversal of actions takes place. Even the article said that it was the first step of restoration and now it has been halted. This is the true course of a dysfuctional organization like a dysfunctional family – you come ‘home’ on Sunday and you never know what to expect –what mood will things be in today? i suspect the restoration was beginning because the people had faced the ‘elephant’ in the room, addressed it and took steps to deal with it. What I like most about the church I’m in now is they like to hit things straight on –it gives security to know that God can help you handle it when you face it. Could it be this is a spiritual example of how to deal with behavior problems for the congregation or family –but then MFI — the inlaws, come in and ‘try to fix it’ causing a much bigger mess? Just a thought –to be continued …
So, is there any consensus on an appropriate course of action? From what I read, it is acceptable for Pastor Cotton to follow through with counselling and pursue reconcilliation. Just as well, I read approval for the elders to have made their decision. Seems straightforward.
Just where does the path get crooked? Is it appropriate for MFI to sway events, and if so to what extent?
I’m a member of CLF and involved in leadership. Of course I have my own views on the matter, but I’ve never been exposed to such a level of strife within a church. Many of you have. Faithful people around me have also suffered terrible abuses from other churches to the extent that “shepherding” might double as a curse in their eyes. Any insight you might be willing to share?
Hi Luke 44,
Concering “shepherding” and leadership, I personally thing the modern church model, wherby the church leadership/organization is depicted in ‘top-down-organization-chart’ style is wrong. Last church I belonged to, the church prez drew an inverse org chart, with the congregation at the top and the elders below that and the pastor at the bottom, in some vain attempt to show a servant-based (whoever is the greatest must be the least) type organization … the prez was quite proud of it. But, that was on paper only, as the pastor ruled through anger, intimidation and manipulation.
In reality, Jesus church is flat. No one man is above another – we are all in direct, 1:1 relationship with the savior. Hopefully, we can walk side by side, and therein encourage one another on the way up to the real Lord’s house – the New Jerusalem.
It is said that “the ground is level at the foot of the cross” – there, if we have assumed a right position, we are humbled, and prostrate before the Lord. No one above the other, no one between anyone else and Jesus … just equality in humility and broken-ness.
One of the things I’ve pondered over the years, is a statement Jesus made near the end of Matthew 23. Vs. 38 I think? He said to the jews “behold, your house is left to you desolate” – in other words “God has left the building”. Continuing on that theme, is Acts 7:48 and Acts 17:24 which says “God does not live in houses/temples made by men/hands” … Elsewhere, 1 Cor. 3:16 and 6:19, it is written that we are now the new House of God. We are “living stones” (1 Peter 2:4-9), which if we will just submit to Christ Jesus, He will assemble us into a living temple.
But what does that temple look like? You know, I’ve read Revelation, and what sticks out to me is the emphasis on the FOUNDATION. A foundation of various stones, laid side by side. I may be wrong or have forgotten, but I don’t really remember a description of the walls of this temple. Just the foundation.
Well, turning from Matthew 23 where “Jesus has left the building”, to Matthew 24:2, Jesus says about the temple:
It’s going to be thrown/torn down “not one stone shall be left atop the other”.
That’s always puzzled me – because today, about 1930 years later, there are still walls of that temple intact in Jerusalem – the so-called ‘western wailing wall’, etc. And so if what Jesus said was literal/physical, obviously the temple has not yet been fully thrown down – complete destruction is yet to come, or, Jesus was wrong.
But what if the temple stones Jesus was referring to was SPIRITUAL stones – the “living stones” of 1 Peter 2:4-9? What if the meaning of Jesus words in Matthew 24:2 was spiritual (see John 6:63 – “my words are spirit” statement by Jesus). If His words were spirit in reference to the temple, could Jesus have been saying:
My church is flat! Not one man shall be above the other – everyone shall be joined one to another arm in arm – shoulder to shoulder – and ultimately to Me as the chief cornerstone?
If that’s the case, then the leadership / eldership model we see in churches today, which resemble commercial / corporate structure, is wrong. And suggests that the ‘apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher’, and all the other labels we apply to the people in leadership capacity, need to be re-thunk in terms of function, and not position, of service, and not rulership.
Often I’ve heard it said that a true leader, doesn’t need to take the label, does not need to be addressed as such, and in fact leads transparently. I’ve been in some church situations where it was not immediately obvious who the leader was, because everyone was participating equally.
I don’t know what to tell you in terms of CLF. Organizations don’t change in my expience. But the hearts of people in them can change. Somehow, I think if we really had a good understanding of every one in the Body being equal, where we are all kings, priests, Sons, etc., and if leadership was approached with humility and a servants heart, there could be complete healing, reconciliation, and growth. But as long as leadership maintains the ‘clergy / laity’ divide and a top-down authoritarian type management style, there will always be people abused, and people who would not go anywhere near such an institution.
Jack
PS – Luke 44 – is that your name and age, or, are there 44 chapters in your version of Luke, or is that Luke 4:4?
Somehow, I suspect it’s the latter. 
Luke 44,
I copied the following from FICM comment above who copied it out of the MFI Philosophy page:
It seems the key would be if MFI was asked by the elder board to help the situation. Passive-agressive bullying tactics wouldn’t fall into the category of appropriate behavior.
Boy isn’t that true TCR –maybe someone should mail them a set of their
bylaws again –either change them or change something else there because its confusing the sheep.
Jack I love the picture of the stones layed side by side-creating a colorful road of gems. As I read on the internet it is very clear this revolution is occuring everywhere within the Body of Christ but especially in charismatic churches. The interesting bit of history in all cases is that they were usually started by men who saw the flaws in their denomination and were looking for something different –hence like Martin Luther–but unfortunately they recreate the same thing as the numbers and leadership challenges grow, and many times much worse or controlling than what they left. The thing I read everywhere is people are questioning the’ Moses Model’ of one person at the top who is solely accountable to God, with little to no accountability to a board or elders. The one blog topic that consistently comes up is little to no financial accountability because that seems to be the one tangible piece that people can’t explain away. Since we live with corporate accountability -or non –the American
church resents being taken advantage of financially more than anything. The two pathways I see forming out there as models is the House Church –stone next to stone method and the Mega Church -building satelites around the country model. Wonder which one the Lord would desire or if the model is even apparant yet –I have a feeling its all in Revelations………
Thanks for taking the time and skullwork to reply to me. I sense alot of experience and insight about these matters; in light of the fact that you can’t possibly know the full situation, history, and pulse of our church.
Which is based on love, obedience to God, and transparency as demonstrated by the leadership and shown throughout the congregation. Nothing wrong with those things imho. As people in different seasons of life, lots of things can and do go wrong. Pastors are no exception, and knowing these things beforehand doesn’t lesson the impact of change or tragedy. (Insert bible verses here).
I also sense alot of hostility toward MFI and their involvement; with CLF or any number of other churches. Perhaps that’s founded, I have no way of knowing. MFI was just a random, miscellaneous term I’d heard from time to time before, didn’t impact my work or occupy my thoughts much more than that.
After re-reading the letters from Dick Iverson and Wendell Smith, I remain unconvinced that this has much to do with MFI’s involvement. It seems more like letters from friends and associates of Doug Cotton going to bat for him. Perhaps the theology is sound, perhaps not. I would rather be careful and NOT mis-interpret events.
As advocates of MFI, I can understand that those pastors really can’t do anything without bringing a part of who they are into play. Same’s true with all of us, pastor or not. Aside from encouragement, counsel, or anything that one friend and associate would do for another…the question remains: is MFI doing anything diabolical to influence the situation?
Mr. Jack, your interest is flattering. My favorite verse.
Hi Luke,
Iverson’s comments are most troublesome to me – after listening to the elders, he says not one has 2-3 witnesses. That seems like a deceptively worded statement to me – the elders are a body, why refer to them individually like that? Do the 16 elders together have 2-3 witnesses? Are the elders themselves witnesses? Iverson’s wording just smells fishy / deceptive / manipulative.
I also have to wonder why Iverson would write to the congregation? It’s the minister who belongs to MFI, not the congregation. So what is Iverson’s authority to write the congregation?
Also, sounds like he’s pulling a ‘rank’ card on the congregation what with the “[I'm your] spiritual father of 30 years”. Does Iverson have long term personal involvement with the congregation? Does the congregation know him from before? Or are there members who like yourself know little about MFI, who say “Who’s this Iverson-cat who’s claiming to be our spiritual father?” Then there’s that whole business about Jesus words: “call no man father, for you have but one Father who is in Heaven” … or something like that. Seems like Iverson wants to usurp God’s role?
Lastly, the false covering doctrine – tossed out to instill fear, manipulate. The congregation is covered, by / in Christ Jesus.
Interesting too Smith’s comment about ‘not being consulted’ … not sure whether Smith is talking about “before sacking Cotton” or “before going public”? Or are those one in the same? If “not being consulted” means ‘before sacking Cotton’, then perhaps the relationship between the congregation/leadership (other than Cotton) with MFI isn’t quite the “spiritual father” relationship that Iverson makes himself out to be.
Does Cotton’s membership in MFI make Iverson the proud papa of CLF?
Jack you hit the nail on the head. I don’t know why but this passage jumped out at me today about the ‘spiritual father component. I could go on with story after story but suffice to say it is a big ‘MFI thing’ dating back somewhere. Our pastor referred to it often and it gave everyone a hunger to have him be our spiritual father as well -then when that couldn’t or didn’t happen people left decimated from unmet expectations, trying to capture something they were missing from their own fathers. I don’t know exactly what that term means or where it comes from but I know the fruit of it–once again getting our eyes off of the Lord.
His ‘comment’ about providing others to be their ‘covering’ during this transition smacks of the same. I am seeing it all with new eyes—easy to miss!
Just what are the root of PBT and MFI –I mean which’ covering ‘did they come out from under exactly? I’ve wondered for years –was it a denomination and how did it go exactly? What are their roots?
Out of curiosity who was Martin Luther’s ‘covering when he nailed that
proclamation on the door of the cathedral?
I know of a case where an MFI pastor got demon-possessed.
I dunno about you but I’m thinking maybe that should disqualify someone from the ministry. Perhaps Paul forgot that one: “the husband of one wife, . . .and not demon-possessed.”
But the big guns were called in, the fellow was delivered, and life went on.
There were elders in our church who committed adultery and were restored as elders. In fact my roommate was one of them. Took a few years, but hey. Never mind the sleeping around, the smoking and drinking, the teaching her son to sneak into movie theaters. Once a leader, always a leader.
I see that Richard Roberts is coming to the next big CBC conference. When my brother was at ORU, Richard Roberts was committing adultery.
I just don’t get it. Doesn’t anyone besides Judah stay pure anymore?
KariMichelle
Do you know what conference that is and where did you find the info?
I appreciate your stories and have been wondering from the letters what
exactly is just cause to remove someone –does it state it biblically or is
it for each group of believers to discern…..theologians anyone!
http://www.citybiblechurch.org/p/8927/Default.aspx
RR ex-wife wrote a tell-all book back when they divorced. Also my brother worked for him.
Free AT Last wrote:
If you cite 1 Timothy 3 stuff, there’s PLENTY reason to disqualify the guy from his pastor role: (NOTE: I don’t know why Iverson/Smith say there’s no basis under scripture – again, seems like bluffing / intimidation / manipulation)
1 Timothy 3:1-7 GNB This is a true saying: If a man is eager to be a church leader, he desires an excellent work. (2) A church leader must be without fault; he must have only one wife, be sober, self-controlled, and orderly; he must welcome strangers in his home; he must be able to teach; (3) he must not be a drunkard or a violent man, but gentle and peaceful; he must not love money; (4) he must be able to manage his own family well and make his children obey him with all respect. (5) For if a man does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of the church of God? (6) He must be mature in the faith, so that he will not swell up with pride and be condemned, as the Devil was. (7) He should be a man who is respected by the people outside the church, so that he will not be disgraced and fall into the Devil’s trap.
Pretty clear to me, that this scripture ties into Paul’s passage on the fruit of the Spirit, in that this passage mentions self-control, gentleness, peacefullness, and NO violence (of which abuse through anger / spiritual abuse IS).
Vs. 7 is interesting – he must be respected by people OUTSIDE the church. What about the people INSIDE the church? Or does that go without saying?
…
There’s another thought that enters in about this. And that is the ‘blurring of the lines’ concerning ‘Biblical employ’, where the pastor is hired under fed. and state labor laws. The pastor has to apply for a job like every other candidate, goes through an interview process, and is hired, presumably with filing tax forms, paying health care benefits, retirement, etc. And so the employment of a pastor is in part patterened after scripture (the decision to hire is reached through prayer), and in part in compliance with employment law, tax law, etc.
With the offer of employment, there is certainly the implication of contract between employer (the church) and employee (the pastor), and performance expectations. With the annual budget, where the pastor and staff are considered for pay increase, there is the implication of performance reviews. Among the ‘performance expectations’ of any employer I’ve ever worked for, is the expectatation to work well with others, compliance with EO and harrassment laws (is non-harrassment limited to sexual issues, or, all forms of harrassment, inwhich case angry outbursts would qualify as harrassment), etc.
I can’t see where Cotton and MFI have a leg to stand on, biblically or civilly.
……
In another thread on this subject, I mentioned spending time in Minirth-Meier myself for depression after my 1st marriage broke up. The Spirit brought to my remembrance the man I shared a room with – a pastor from California who was dealing with a severe anger problems. He could be the most gentle and emotional man – caring – moved to tears – but that anger would well up in him and he was like a red-eyed raging bull. I’m not sure he ever made progress / healed from it. Anyway, I’ve read there is basis for anger in older men from hardening of the arteries (arteriosclerosis). According to several medical web sites, anger in fact is an indicator of arteriosclerosis. I’m certain that pastor suffered from it, as did my father-in-law.
Don’t know if there is a cure for it, or way to manage it.
Wish pdxrn would chime in!
I seem to recall Dick wrote a book about his life, perhaps the mfi beginnings are in there. Since he’s ‘the father’ I would guess mfi originates with him.
I don’t know why but your question makes me think of Joseph Smith and how he came west to start a whole new religion based on the uncover doctrine.
Um… he writes nothing. He has a ghost writer who does it all.
Oh so telling.
Wow the correlations here are endless. To those who don’t get it we’re ‘uncovering’ alot of things here we’ve wondered about, weren’t allowed to question or ask. I don’t see how people miss the fact that whenever they set out to start something new they are the marvericks themselves, but then step on those under them so that they won’t do the same thing. As I look at some of the MFI leaders I know– they came from the Nazarene church –where I also was a part of for a long time. Believe me this caused turmoil and lots of problems for them because they were considered wrong, rebellious, blasphemous and worse. Yet they felt they were hearing God and went on. Does it take 40 years to forget what they went through-what your roots truly are? This is coming from an ex-Catholic who knows that Church thinks the whole lot of you Protestants are total rebels for ever leaving the ‘real church.’–at least they used to and we were taught that’s was why there were so many denominations out there.
What about that ‘covering doctrine’ –was it right to set out and say the things the Catholics were doing weren’t right —weren’t they God’s authority on earth at that time? Actually it was a Nazarene Pastor I had who taught us all in Church History classes –we all came from the Catholic Church.
Isn’t it good to be thinking people -able to ask questions like this –looking back at history because it constantly repeats itself.
Man – it is so funny to watch disgruntled bloggers pound scripture down the troats of cemetary-trained ministers. I love it!
MFI loves the “support the pastor” mantra. They do nothing for the congregation. When the church in Phoenix was dying a slow death all they did was shore up Wil Lake. They got egg on their face when just about everyone left because they couldn’t stand the autocratic rule of the pastor and all his machinations to stay in power. Where was the care for the people then? We were all cut loose. They say they want to serve the pastors but, what happens in the end is that the people are the ones that suffer. Is MFI about spreading the gospel or just presevering the public image of the pastor?
It seems to me that MFi’s intrusion into the Doug Cotton matter has caused more harm than good. Today he is stepping down and then a few days later he’s still the pastor? Makes him look like a double minded AND angry man. Dick Iverson is acting more like the Pope and Wendell, his chief inquisistor. Acting like the Catholics we were taught were soo wrong. Hmmm…… Kind of makes you wonder. ( But mostly, it makes me sick to my stomach that the men I used to respect would twist scripture in order to further propagate their agenda and act in such an insidious way.)
Hats off to the people in Phoenix for knowing their own minds enough to know a sinking ship when they see it. For some reason, people here stand in line waiting to take the place of those who leave so it’s enabled to continue– the revolving door is often referred to.
I have a question. Where is Frank in all of this(CLF episode). His name is oddly not coming up. This being a Dick and Wendell crusade, could it be he’s smart enough to give W enough rope to hang himself with?
People have been wondering through sheer observation of things
is Wendell going to take over when Iverson steps down as head of MFI
it feels like there is a shift going on and not just from this situation.
Did he have to go out and prove his leadership capabilities away from
Portland?
Bishop Wendell had always said Bible Temple was his calling and that he would NEVER leave. Interesting that when Bishop Yankee Frankie was chosen by Apostle Dick to take over the reigns of Bible Temple that Bishop Wendell suddenly felt “called” to start his own church.
Do you think perhaps his ego was miffed? Hopes dashed? Jealousy??????
Actually Wendell announced he was leaving first. I remember when he announced he was going to Seattle because we all assumed he was first in line for Bro. Dick’s role and it caused quite a stir because there were no other obvious choices beside Wendell. Frank was chosen some time after Wendell’s announcement.
Yes but why did he announce it?
Could it be he heard he wasn’t in line to get the position –I believe we heard something to that effect.
This kind of thing went on all the time at our MFI affiliate –it must be part of a paradigm to constantly keep people off balance.
I was wondering the same thing since this particular blog is all about MFI and I thought FRANK was its commander in chief and the CBC Parady originated with his name and church throughout. Now he’s mysteriously not mentioned here. Maybe he’s off writing another manual (I heard he is a prolific writer and marketeer).
JJJ,
Classic. I can’t help but notice that you manage to fit some CBC bashing into your cleverly disguised reprimand post.
Well done.
Hi Jeremiah,
Tearing down is in a sense one of the basics of the faith. Crucifixion is a ‘tearing down’ of sorts, in as much as it puts to death the ways of the flesh, it puts the carnal nature back in right relationship as in submission to the Spirit. Jesus was certainly torn down, unto death. The temple in Jerusalem was torn down. The apostles and disciples were hunted down and crucified, wherefrom the faith spread during a time of severe persecution. The tearing down of the flesh paves the way for spiritual life.
There are numerous passages of which I’m certain you are aware, about confronting someone who has wronged you, of speaking the truth in love, of marking the brother that causes division and offense, of holding one another accountable, etc. Even the Bible is a permanent record of the sins of several people, and so documenting the greed, false teachings, abuse of our former taskmasters serves a purpose – if only to get us talking about it to facilitate our healing. I’m hopeful it serves as a warning to those taskmasters, and, a warning to those who might otherwise follow them.
Where this blog is active in the building up – it is a place to vent, identify with others who have gone through the same abuse, etc. For a lot of people, healing begins when they find out they are not alone, and through talking with other victims of church abuse, learn that it is wrong.
I don’t really trust God that is why I employ marketing and business practices to move our church forward?
Jeremiah,
Sheesh, i was just asking about where Frank’s voice is on the CLF situation and said he may be busy writing a book because I heard he did that. Where did you get the not trusting God part?
Very elegant. Sums up what I had been thinking.
By this, do you mean that any post that is critical / rebuking of CBC, et al, should contain a scripture reference, e.g., Proverbs 26:11 ?
JJ, one of the things I’ve learned since exiting institutionalized religion, is that we are The Word – we are Scripture. I can feel hackles going up all over the ‘net with that declaration – but it’s true. Whether you look at it from the standpoint of Christ IN us, where Christ is the living word of God according to John 1, OR, you refer to that wonderful passage in 2 Cor. 3:2 (?) where Paul writes that we are “epistles of Christ”, written not in stone, but on the tablets of our hearts. Where Paul’s epistles were included in the ‘Bible’, why not Christ’s epistles (us)?
One of the spiritual abuses most people are struggling to come out from under, is the most insidious abuse of people who elevate the LOGOS word (Bible) above the living word (people who are incarnate with Jesus). Where we are taught to live by and follow the Spirit, where we are taught that it is the blood of the lamb AND our testimony (living word in us) that overcomes the enemy and not the blood and scripture, even the Bible would seem to emphasize the importance of the living word / people over the Bible.
A few days ago, I was listening to Frank’s latest sermon, which is something about loving the house of God passionately. In it, Frank said that there were 2 versions of the word – the Logos which is the written word, and the Rhema, which is the written word that is quickened to the spirit of a person. Bluntly, Frank is in error, or, there’s a serious / manipulative ommission in his preaching / teaching, because there is a 3rd Word. It’s the LIVING WORD – Christ (see John 1). And Christ is incarnate in us. By preaching the ‘written word’ only, ministers exalt it above Christ, and the people in whom Christ dwells.
John’s utterance at the end of John, that the “whole world couldn’t contain all the books that would be written about Him”, is a prophecy. Of course the world could contain physical books written on paper – but where we are the living books of the ongoing testimony of Christ, yes, one day we may fill / subdue the world and more.
I would agree that as the living word incarnate, we could all express ourselves better, be more concise, holy, et al, but where it is woundedness we are expressing, and with the taskmasters and persecutors we are confronting, eloquence isn’t always easy. Frankly, people are hard to look at when they cry. I believe there is value in raw expression – to let those taskmasters and persecutors know just how badly they have hurt people – and it has value to the one expressing it if only to get it all out.
In as much as we ARE the living word of God – Christ incarnate – the ‘epistles of Christ’ – when we speak about the abuses of our taskmasters / persecutors, it IS the word of God / the Holy Spirit that is testifying.
In terms of how it looks, the form that would take, whether or not it is eloquent, have a look at Matthew 23 and what Jesus said to the pharisees. It wasn’t pretty. Nor was everything Jesus said written / contained elsewhere in scripture. He simply confronted them with their wrongdoing – using metaphor that was very insulting to the Pharisees and teachers of the law – “white washed tombs full of dead mens bones”, “unmarked graves”, “full of maggots” – all very offensive metaphors to Jews who practiced the law of Moses and observed ritual cleanliness.
Consistent with Jesus example in Matt. 23 and elsewhere, I do not feel the need to make sure that what I express – my observations and feelings – can be cross-referenced with some Bible passage. Sometimes, a person just knows (word of knowledge, word/spirit of wisdom, discernment) that something is wrong. It is NOT our knowledge of scripture that works discernment, it is the Holy Spirit. Discernment is a gift of the spirit, and operates by the Spirit. And so when someone is vocalizing their observations / feelings about abusive and errant religious leaders, as is often done here, they are often simply expressing the discernment of the Holy Spirit within them.
I wouldn’t get in the way of that for anything. That borders on oppressing / grieving the the work of the Holy Spirit in my book.
Amen to that brother! oh sorry–there’s my old life talking but I do get excited when you find a way to express our thoughts and feelings. Some of us have only recently come out from under this oppressive reign and into a new light of The Holy Splirit. TCR and I have been at last able to express our feelings to a community of like minded soldiers who understand the battle experience we have been through and endured. We have tried to talk to many others, even those of various kinds of abuse -but nothing has lifted our hearts as much as the humor and understanding of this blog. The more we ‘write it out’ the more free we become in our heart and mind -because finally we can say what we’ve thought or felt for years.
Yes I actually attend a Bible believing church that teaches more of the Bible in one Sunday than I often heard in a year –and they were completely honest in the healing class I took. I almost couldn’t take it–wanting to run out of the room. I told them I wasn’t used to this much honesty -but they knew from years of helping people that they have to have a place where they can be totally free to tell of their experience–the good, the bad the ugly. That is the only way through and it takes others who can listen and handle it when it gets rough or ugly knowing God can take it –He admires those who are honest I believe.
I saw amazing transformations from so much anger and hurt the first week that all anyone did was cry when telling their story– to a group who could laugh and kid each other at the end of 12 weeks -but it took time. Some hurts aren’t healed for quite a while.
So applause to Jack who understands that the exact thing that can stop healing –like putting acid in a wound–is to say ‘stop being so negative’–
shut up–keep it all in -undercover!
I assure you JJ –much to my surprise this blog has helped us immensely and hopefully will shorten the time it takes to get set free 100%- but I hope we learn the lesson of letting those talk who’ve gotten hurt and help them over to the side of freedom. That is a ministry indeed.
As far as accomplishing something I can only say that so much that we did was wood hay and stubble as one ex-pastor has said who left the same time we did. The positive words and responses will come but till then don’t shut us up–its the only safe valve we’ve found.
As far as fighting for our own agenda most people who stop by here seem to just be fighting to hold onto their faith or to get back to the real thing –let alone having an agenda. Try looking past the style they are speaking and see what is behind their words or funny remarks.
My children took Rhetoric classes and learned to debate topics –sometimes arguing a side they didn’t really believe -it is a process used for centuries
as in Jewish schools in order to teach you how to think and understand why you believe what you believe. A debate can form or change opinions but at least I’m thinking for myself instead of letting everyone else do it for me. This has given me a desire to study the word more for myself now -not just look up the ‘one verse’ someone’s sermon is based on.
We understand and perceive the religious nature of those who are still inside a world that seems to be built around the do’s and don’ts of Christianity. We spoke the same jive to those who left before us. So when you give that huge dialog on picking battles, all that says to us is that you are trying to shut us up–that our offense colors our opinions therefore we are too ‘offended’ to voice an opinion; and that since your voice has a right to be heard.
What about ‘offenses will come’ don’t you understand? Jesus said we’d have offenses. Why do you think there isn’t a process in getting over or through an offense? Are we superhuman so everything is automatically dispelled with a scripture quotation or chant and that we don’t process things? Who are you to say WHEN a person should be finished with that process and is free to move on? Why don’t you think that control, manipulupation and oppression isn’t offenseive to Jesus’ doctrine? Jesus himself hated it when the Pharissees tried to turn worshipping God into their relgious exercise when all he truly wanted was true worship from the heart? His methods of healing were spontaneous and what was needed for that moment for that person, what some would call random. He wasn’t limited to the sunday morning experience and the healing lines. Therefore, his people who are currently plagued with offenses that have been afflcted upon them by others who claim him, should be given time to heal as well as a voice to air grievances. Religiousness is always trying to shut up the voice of those who question. Questioning is just another way of trying to understand the truth. Truth uncovers injustice.
I tying to get what yer sayin’, man. Are you sayin’ it’s wrong for peeps to let their feelings show? Is it wrong to express the anger and hurt people have for toxic churches? Is it wrong to be angry with the leaders who are riding a toxic system over peeps on the way to being rich?
You seem to be sayin’ that we’re doing something wrong. Why not just come out and say what’s on your mind, Jerry.
Jeremiah,
Thanks for making that clear and I appreciate your thoughts on tempering responses, etc. Sometimes certain attitudes that come across in using scripture to say what needs to be said, instead of just saying it, hits my button and I get a little fiesty. I truly didn’t hear it was construction criticism underneathe all the quotations.
There is a part of me that wants to be done with the process to where attitudes and my perceptions of my former church world don’t bother me any more. But there’s another part of me that feels if I don’t speak up, people will continue to enable the vortex that is created by the glossing over of what is really happening by the artful and sometimes manipulative use of scripture and ‘religious’ rhetoric, which happens there a lot. Since I’m NOT there anymore, I shouldn’t care–that is where I’m heading–but another part of me feels I should care because i AM a part of the body of Christ and would like to bring change to our overall Christian culture. How do you bring change if you just move on and say “I don’t care what they do since I’m not there anymore?”
Maybe there is a better place to be free to vent and express your feelings unabashadely but it is hard to find. At my new church most have not experienced this degree of dysfunction or control -thankfully-so it is hard for them to relate to.
If people could be more real esp. in the Christian world than many of us wouldn’t resort to blogs. This place was not found by word of mouth but by divine inspiration –The idea to google frank’s name one night came to me and I couldn’t believe what I found. I had been asking for a place of healing –information any on this subject just to make me feel that others understood it. Only this group could get it –and even then we feel we still have things that would blow you all away that we have yet to unleash. It will make your plasma screens look like mere trifles.
Our group realizes we will have closure on this some day–but right now we’re still waiting to see the end of the story–how will things play out here. In the meantime we work on our healing and perhaps read ‘The Power of Positive Thinking.’
Just wondering how do all revolutions get their start –talking bad about King George, throwing tea in the Boston harbor?
What about kidnapping the Czar when they had enough.
Wouldn’t it be great to recreate what their blogs would have said in those days–maybe they wouldn’t have had to resort to physical violence and revolution if they could feel like they were heard. This is a sort of revolution of sorts -feeling free to say what we think and feel from our own experiences.
Maybe its the word of our testimony that will bring change….just a thought.
Man, you been smokin’ communion wafers or somepin’, Jerry.
Most peeps have worn out their welcome with them what offended ‘em, trying to make right, per scripture and the Spirit, long before they gave up and left the dungeons. Don’tcha get that peeps are lamenting that the goons demonstrated repeatedly that they don’t care about love, peace, unity, but only about getting their own way, of action with impunity?
Peeps can’t reconcile the goons claims of Christianity with their devil-inspired action.
The complaints peeps have, go far beyond charging an extra $40 for some class. Peeps are talkin’ about spiritual and emotional abuse, of being ridden like mules to some leaders success, of being discarded like a used tampon when leadership is done wif’ ‘em. Tho’ $40 bucks would piss me off – that’s enough for a bottle of Jagermeister and some hot wings.
‘Scrupe
Jeremiah ~ wow, I can hear your voice better now. Anyway, thank you for the advice and if it could be resolved I think I’d still be there. Anything I could say now has been said to them repeatedly through a steady stream of concerned individuals over the years, most of whom have left saddened and devestated.
Believe it or not they haven’t screwed me over so much personally other than the fact they never really GOT me and saw me as a function rather than a person. I feel I allowed them to screw me up spiritually because of their authoritarian leadership style which I enabled without realizing it till I finally came to terms with what I consider the error of their ways and how it wasn’t healthy for me. Once that was abundantly clear, I had to choose between my spiritual health to preserve my personal faith and their ambitious vision to build the ministry of their church, so I could begin to return to a place of health and simplicity with Jesus. That process hasn’t been an overnight, walk-through-the-prayer-line thing.
Also the way I had to watch them treat people because of a prevailing mentality of leadership superiority, even though they speak of being the servants of all, kept stirring up my sense of justice. I guess if you care to know more details you can read former posts from me and Free At Last.
But I have and still do meet with friends from there periodically and they have been very sweet and tolerant of what they probably consider the error of MY ways. But we mostly talk about subjects other than their church, since we have more in common than the church. The reason we are still friends is that our relationship is a two-way street.
Just sit down and talk with Saddam Hussein and see if you can’t get him to be reasonable. That worked well didn’t it?
The trouble with abusive or dysfunctional organizations is that it makes us crazy.
Wow – what a concept -lets sit down and reason together. TCR expresses it well – it can’t be done –if it could we would have stayed there and at least it would have justified the years and years we spent, and invested there hoping it would change and turn out well for ourselves and our families.
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Just like every other company, I think the stockholders(members) of this company should be able to boot the CEO, of course with a nice pension package.
[Comment ID #27064 Will Be Quoted Here]
By all means send him away with all he’s socked away while being there. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever.
Of course you realize that the only members who would even HAVE a pension package would be the CEO and his family–i.e. Senior Pastor, Spouse, Senior Pastor’s Adult Children and Spouses.
God forbid that provisions would EVER be made for any of the Vice Presidents and Treasurers i.e. Associate Pastors and Administrators, who give THEIR entire lives to the company (i.e. die to their personal goals and dreams to build the ‘kingdom’), i.e. Church. Of course, with the current prevalent perception that THEY aren’t as valuable as the Senior Pastor Family, why would the Church ever do THAT?? They are only the Number Twos and Threes (the ones working so fricking hard they don’t have TIME to get a grip and realize that they are wasting away with nothing to show for it till it’s too late. When they do decide to pull out where are the funds for them?)
What’s so disgusting about this is that the Senior Pastor and Family may have started the company but would they be anywhere near as successful without those who devote their lives to their world? At least in the business world provisions are expected to be in place for those who advance in the company. Not saying that those provisions don’t fall through in some cases (Enron).
SOAP BOX: If a church wants to be a business in its finances for the Senior Pastor and Family, why can’t it be a business across the board? Except for areas of the church that need to remain spiritual, it should run like a business and teach its congregation that it IS a business. With teaching of biblical truths and inspiring spirit-led conduct there can be an atmosphere of love, realistic expectations, and good stewardship. Tithing and giving won’t be an issue because people WANT to give to a healthy organization that runs properly. (RED FLAG: TOO much preaching of tithe and giving may be a sign the money isn’t being handled well.)
1. Pay your staff as much as you pay your Family Staff.
2. Provide a pension plan for your workers. They are giving up their personal dreams for your idea of what God wants to do in the earth.
3. Respect your workers’ time.
4. Respect your congregation’s time.
5. Quit using scripture to guilt people into giving money and time to the church.
6. Be nice to your staff in the hall ways.
7. Be nice to your staff when you see them off your church campus.
8. Try to remember that position is only given so you can serve not so that your staff is there to serve you. They know their jobs are in service to you and they will serve you. The least you can do is be greatest of all by being the least of all–just you were expected to be when you took on the task of starting your church.
9. Don’t get mad at your staff or your congregation when they ask why or beg to differ with your opinion and insinuate that those who ask questions have a problem with authority.
10. Throw all books by John Bevere away. His ideas on authority have created a whole new level of the senior pastor thinking too highly of himself. The pastor is only one of five in the 5-fold ministry.
It’s possible to run a church in a way that is respectful to both leadership and congregation. Bottom line isn’t going to be the dollar, it’s going to be respect and fruitfulness in all it puts its hand to do. People will be in awe of how well taken care of the staff is. Yeah, maybe the Senior and Family Staff won’t all be driving Lexus’s and living in guilded cages, but they will be well enough taken care of, equal in status to their non-family staff. Someone mentioned that pastors should be as well off financially as the average family in the congregation — so that’d be a good balance. Not too poor, yet not so rich that they become a HUGE stumbling block to everyone but those as well off as they are.
Amen. Amen.
Shouldn’t every pastor from MFI or at least the big three have a copy of this?
What a concept to treat your people right –and trips to Washington, DC
don’t count as retirement –sorry!
Soapbox: excellent! And so true.
Another thing to add is that no church should offer to fund a “Plant church” for a disgraced former senior pastor who does not acknowledge their wrongdoings.
Doing so simply enables that dysfunctional senior pastor to perpetuate the cycle of abuse with new victims.
So true. Amazing how these abusive leaders choose to remain out of touch with reality in these key areas. But we shouldn’t be surprised–it benefits them. At best they just believe their own press; at worst, they KNOW what they are doing. Either way it keeps the money and power flowing. As long as they can seduce their support base into believing that the senior pastor position is the ‘covering authority’, they’ve got it made.
But there’s really no excuse for congregations to be exploited any longer thanks to the rapidly growing knowledge base on abuse. Books and articles exposing the inner workings of dysfunctional and abusive organizations in both the corporate and church worlds are at our fingertips and of course on Dateline etc. There’s alot out there on how to stay clear of these abuser types. All an inquiring Christian needs is to learn to google online and the willingness to take time to read and investigate along with a healthy ability to give power to whom it’s due and that’s to the Lord only.
But maybe it’s just easier to STAY lazy. It takes energy and common sense to get out of abuse and to stay clear of it again. Guess the only thing that can blast a person out is enough anger so that self preservation and motivation can finally kick in.
[Comment ID #27914 Will Be Quoted Here]
hehehe
“… Scripture and the legal constitution has been violated” in no stretch of anybody’s imagination threatens legal suit or even remotely implies legal action. He simply is telling him the man’s rights have been overstepped. For goodness’ sake, if it had been YOUR rights, or if the offending preacher had been defending free sex (I see you’re for handing out condoms in Bible college) and homosexuality. you’d be heralding the man all over the Internet instead of claiming that he’d come to your house and served you with a subpoena. You know this. The real question, then: What has so hardened your heart that you are willing to lie this egregiously, and against men of G-d?
I’m wondering if you have yourself followed scriptural procedure for dealing with offense against a brother. Have you gone to him personally, tried to appeal to him—with respect and the love of G-d, taken two elders with you? Are his offenses correctible, ‘sins unto death,’ or sins that disqualified him from ever having served PRIOR to being instated? How does bad-mouthing and backbiting (in such an extensive and deliberate manner) all over the Web figure into Scriptural protocol?
On other pages, I see that you have used personal names in many instances for reckless sport and slander. Did the Loumans, Lasits, or others all sue you too, or even threaten you?
I do not know of the specifics here, barely know even a few of these people, am not on their side, or have any particular warmth toward them. I just wonder why you yourself seem so intently bent on systematically spending so much of your time ranting against ministers and churches on the internet. If you wish others to share your anger, you are in the very dangerous position (to you AND to the church) of knowingly ‘spreading discord among the brethren.’ If you’re looking for sympathy, you’ll get much farther with forgiveness, reconciliation, and deliverance, steeping yourself in the Word of G-d, fellowship– maybe even fasting and prayer.
I sincerely hope that there is yet some remnant of respect at least for G-d, His authority and that which He has put over you (it’s all from Him, you know, for one purpose or another—see Rom. 3) despite your perverse language and poisoned tongue. It is so unwise, so unworthy and so unattractive (not to mention so severely warned against in so many books of the Bible) for Christians to become mockers.
I will dare to say that my horror stories with abuse, racism, and even sabotage– yes, of church leadership!– probably minimize yours. I have learned from experience and some very good examples of true Christians that the L-rd Himself is a far better defender of us than we can ever be.
Be rebuked and repent, I beg of you (no need to tell ME anything though, of course). Proving you can be stiffnecked will get you nothing but more mental anguish—besides that which may last an eternity… definitely not worth it. Humility: it’s the hard choice, maybe not the choice you’ve ever even challenged yourself to make before—but you can do it.
Remi, You need to try some reading comprehension before badmouthing people for gossiping. If you had paid attention you would know that DC was dealt with in the very manner you recommended. The fact that we discuss it here is no more gossip than anything else in the public eye. You’re blinded by your adherence to the cult of the Institutional Church which keeps you from dealing with people with real problems and instead point the finger at those who dare to defy the church kings of today. Wake up and smell the sulfur, man. Jesus had warnings against pastors like DC and the MaFIa, and I’d rather answer to God for pointing out their behavior than be judged for being complicit in their mistreatment of God’s people.
Maybe you should practice what you preach then and stop gossiping and “backbiting” against those who DO know these people.
FICM —
Just curious…are you the same person as Former Inner Circle Member?
joe
Remi –no one want to hear your voice –so go away -now would be nice!
Why is it your remind me of our senior pastors daughter’s voice from
MFI land.
she sounds like someone realeased from a mental institution that has been wandering the streets for years to me. ramble on remi!