Here is an email I received from Honestly, a current member of CLF, sharing her thoughts on our thoughts:
Honestly it was really hard to come upon this site and read the harshness of what people were saying about someone who has made such a difference in so many lives. I don't wish to continue to make comments on the blog, as it will do no good for anyone. People who have no idea of incidents that led to the situation at hand are forming the most negative opinions about Pastor Doug, and that was very bothersome to me. To entertain comments any further would only discourage me more.
You've got to understand that this is my home, my church, my family and to see comment after comment which drag people through the mud and back again is very heartbreaking. I agree that the way it has been handled from the very beginning is out of line. From the way the elders approached the situation down to how the congregation found out (the newspaper) was all inappropriate.
And truthfully, I don't believe people would like to hear the other side. People feed on garbage and gossip, not on truth. From the comments that have been made after mine, it is apparent that people only want to see the negative. What people do not realize is that the people involved are having huge tolls taken on their lives. Not just Pastor Doug, but the elders, their wives, and the people who have been allegedly abused and their families. The kind of trash talking that is going on all over the place is only adding to the situation, really. My heart truly goes out to everyone who is involved.
I understand that I do not have to read your blogs or respond to them, but I thought maybe if I could just say one little thing that could trigger others to stop ripping apart Doug Cotton even for a moment, it would be worth writing a comment. I have since realized it will not help, but on the contrary make it worse. People have put words in my mouth "Then you enhance your credibility by saying the only reason we smell a rat here is because we're blinded by bitterness" which is FAR from what I said. Someone even compared Doug to Saddam Hussein. WOW! That's a little over the line, wouldn't you say? People don't stop to think about what they are saying and what affects it will have on others that "stop" by your site. I understand and agree with "free speech" but WOW…come on, don't you think sometimes the free speech goes a little too far with some of the blogs?
I am not offended, but merely saddened by what others believe to be true about my Pastor. I have watched him with people for a long time and know first hand the love that he demonstrates over and over again, unselfishly serving anyone he comes in contact with. Doug will be the first to admit he has issues to work on. We all do. He openly asks for forgiveness when he has offended or hurt others. I am not taking sides but I pray that the truth will be revealed before it is too late. People's lives are at stake, it's not just the latest gossip around town.
Thank you for your time as I know you probably get tons of responses a day to go through….
And this was my response:
Honestly,
I understand that this is a very emotional and difficult time for everyone involved. It is very unfortunate. I hope that you can see that the majority of the bloggers are not trying to pass judgment on CLF or Pastor Cotton. We really don't have any clue what has happened there.
Our issues are with MFI, and yes, they stem from past experiences. The fact that this story got published in a paper is what, along with the letters sent out, in my opinion, make it a public story. This is why we write about it. We really feel that many of today's Christian churches have become corrupted by a desire for power and fame. Our goal is to bring these issues out to the public for debate, in hopes to raise awareness of the situation. Sometimes our readers are stupid and say things that I don't agree with, but we are not interested in censoring everyone. While many people disagree with our methods we feel they have been somewhat effective.
I really hope your church can resolve whatever issues they have on all sides. Again, I'm sorry if what we have done offends you, it was not you or your pastor that we have issues with. I really appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts with me. Church is such a personal place for all of us and things like this are never easy.
-JP
Hey! Thanks for the shout out, JP!
Thought I would answer Samaritan’s question on elders – there are nine total. Moyer is an elder and also associate pastor (can’t remember which came first). However, these are not “yes men†to Pastor Doug. These men are men of integrity, men of honor, men who listen to God for guidance and direction. I know this blog is more about MFI. However, this is a sobering situation to what happens when we as humans put our faith/trust in humans or organizations (MFI) and follow them instead of following God. MFI and it’s “fraternity of pastors†has only caused more problems in this situation including but not limited to lawyers getting involved and threatening lawsuits. They are standing up for a man who needed to be removed and are trying to put him back behind the pulpit. HUH? I have found this blog intersting, amusing, and actually helpful. I would not have been aware of MFI’s website and their supposed “philosophy†in not getting involved at the local level. That’s a joke! Wendell Smith is involved beyond just sending a letter. I am angered and outraged at this “frat of pastors†that have basically told our board of elders who are very closely involved in the situation (obviously) AND have been placed by God as a spiritual covering over this church that they were wrong for displacing their frat brother. Excuse me! They need to take a pie and shove it in both holes and get the he@! out of my church and allow the church to continue to work through this without lawyers and the courts (if it gets to that point). Yes, I’m MAD! I apologize for venting but this is probably the only place I can do this and not be “known†and ridiculed at this time for my opinion because as you can see from honestly’s point of view, I am in the minority. Too many people have been “touched, moved, healed” by Pastor Doug. They are in denial. No one wants to think such terrible things about a man that has helped them. Everyone is again forgetting that it is not the man we follow but God. When the right time comes to step out and make it known here, I will.
God has worked in my life through Pastor Doug but it is God that did the work, not the man. I know he is mere human like me and I make mistakes on a daily basis, as he has so quickly pointed out sitting back in the chair in his office with a smurk. I am greatly reminded now of what Jesus said in Matthew 7:3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?†I am righteously angered that he has hurt so many people over the years. Pastor Doug is a bully, plain and simple. When things weren’t going his way, he would go into blind rages of anger and then not seem to remember that he did. That being said, I do hope that he gets help and can be healed from all of this as well. It is no way to live, especially for his family.
I too agree this is a shame it has been publicized as it has. Actually, the truth is The Daily World somehow got wind of what was occurring and started literally harrassing the elders and their wives for information, calling them at home and work. The church had to call them and say “knock it off.†Our family has the right to know first.†So what does the Daily World do – they send THREE, that’s right, THREE reporters to the church on Sunday morning. Talk about a gossip. I guess people could say I’m doing that now but I’ve just gotta vent.
Okay I’m getting way off track now. People’s eyes and hearts need to be opened to this situation. Because all of you are not emotionally attached to this situation, you can draw conclusions that many people cannot see who are emotionally attached. I guess many of you may think that about me too. Anyway, Samaritan was talking about how many witnesses there were to his rages of anger. Nine elders, their wives and I can think of a few staffers. That is not to mention the congregents who have seen it as well. That’s at least 21 witnesses and counting. My point – I don’t know where Mr. Iverson with MFI gets off saying there are not two or three witnesses. There is so much I could argue with in both Iverson’s and Wendell’s letters. I’m glad my eyes have been opened to the truth. While I don’t take everything I read on this site as factual, I appreciate those of you willing to “talk” about the frat brothers at MFI.
Thank you for listening. Again I apologize for using your blog to vent about our situation. [index finger wagging] SHAME ON MFI!
Thanks for sharing, IT. (And I apologize for wanting to call you ‘Cousin IT’)
Thanks for clarifying how many people have been involved in the situation. Hard to imagine where the MaFIa came up with the 2 or 3 witnesses statement. Unless they were looking for no more/less than 2 or 3, and were simply overwhelmed by 21+. 
It’s all just posturing on MFI’s part, I guess.
I have no trouble believing what you have seen, brother, nor understanding the denial of the majority of the congregation. A few days ago, I posted about my experience with pastoral anger. The people who knew about it and saw it routinely, were those close to the pastor, or who were involved with him on staff, and in the various committee meetings during weeknights. Many of us called him a chameleon for his ability to conceal it. The people who did NOT see it, were typically those who just showed up for the Sunday service, where the pastor was at his best / on-stage persona, in full habit. They also saw him occasionally at a potluck. Hardly enough exposure to him in real-life situations to make any kind of informed observation.
The people who see/saw the anger were those who were in relationship with him where there was potential for conflict / stress – as in staff and committee meetings. And that’s where he bullied with his anger.
He also gave me an education in “working people” to get his way. I mentioned being nominated to chair the worship committee. And the meeting where I saw him nearly have an infarction/stroke trying to swallow his anger, I was just checking it out for myself first. The day after that meeting, he called me to his office and told me that my election “would NOT be unanimous, because you are contemporary and this is a traditional church” … he went on to pressure me to decline the nomination. Well, on the Lord’s leading I just waited, but the nomination never came – I can only guess about what happened after the meeting. It was the church president that nominated me – but the ‘nomination guy’ was the pastors good friend – and the nomination never materialized.
So, I just kind of took what I knew, and melted into the back pew. And started the process of unplugging from the praise and worship team. I couldn’t stomach being involved in something built on manipulation, anger, control, bullying. I had this kind of vision of the path to the sanctuary being littered with the maimed and wounded bodies of those who didn’t knuckle under to the pastor’s will, nor could I escape the feeling that we were somehow worshipping on the graves of those who had been snuffed out to maintain the ‘status quo’. The situation utterly zapped me of joy for worship.
Considering where I am now with worship, music, and the Lord, I’m glad it happened though.
All this to say, I really empathize with you and others who have been hurt by the pastor there. And I admire your sharing here, and pray for your healing and for the churches healing. Remember – ‘there is a rock that is higher than I’. Psalm 61:2.
Jack
Thank you for your reply, Indendent Thinking.
Have Mr. Iverson and Smith been advised of how man people really are involved? If yes, then the 2-3 witnesses statement would seem to be a deliberate attempt to manipulate and divide the congregation, and possibly isolate those who confronted Cottonto make them fold, or leave.
Very reprehensible of MFI, if you ask me.
Sam
Dear HONESTLY,
Many people including myself have been very negatively impacted and outrighted abused by Pastors anger or control or other issues in the past. I too have been bullied in the past, I even had a pastor pound his fists repeatedly on the table while yelling at me to intimidate me. I think things like these are why everyone reacts so strongly on this blog. Obviously we are not there and don’t know Doug personally but when we hear about anger abuse to the point that the eldership is stepping in to resolve the situation we it get us riled up.
I don’t doubt that through his tenure Doug has helped many people. It’s tough because many of these man have done “great things” and accomplished much “for the kingdom” but they have also hurt many people behind the scenes and outright destoryed some peoples lives. Does the end justify the means? I don’t know….but it “seems” MFI believes it does.
When you have experienced this pain and hear stories of the MFI brotherhood helping to cover up or keeping these men in power it is tough to take.
I have personally known a handful of pastors that were abusive in some form, enough to know that it definately happens. These type of pastors and some in MFI need be reminded that church people are NOT theirs to control.
Hopefully that helps with some perspective.
These types of pastors also need to be reminded that the people in their care are not blind and mute, that God indeed gave them each a brain to think with, a heart and spirit to discern with, a mouth and voice to speak with. Even though they vary in intelligence and maturity spiritually, their grievances should be considered and deemed appropriate for living in America where free speech is supposed to be allowed and encouraged.
Honesty, (To be completely honest, wouldn’t you have to admit that imperfect people feed on truth and garbage on a daily basis?) The thought I have is we’d like you to give us a chance to consider we aren’t motivated by evil forces or just by our basest instincts, but in fact what we speak of is from experiences that caused great pain and eventual disillusionment. We can, in fact, relate to what you are going through.
Actually, it seems most of us felt Doug Cotton initially responded with humility and contriteness and he was applauded for that. We do understand where you are coming from, and hopefully you and your church will get to the other side of the trauma in a healthy way. I wish you the best and hope it resolves soon.
Why is there an “other side” in the matter?
People have come forward to testify of abuse by the pastor’s anger. By “other side”, do you mean there are people who actually dispute the testimonies of people who have been abused? By “other side”, do you mean you object to something being done about it?
One common element of ritual institutional spiritual abuse, are the people who deny / invalidate the experiences of the abused; who write off the tales of abuse and hurt as sour-grapes or disgruntled, etc. In so doing, they take an active part in the abuse by discrediting the abused and covering it up.
Guess I don’t see how there could be an “other side”.
John444-
To clarify my own use of ‘other side’, I merely mean ‘getting thru’ the situation which this church obviously has to do; but I know what you are saying about there shouldnt be ‘the other side’ to abuse.
[Comment ID #9454 Will Be Quoted Here]
Understand; guess I should have attributed the quote above to ‘Honestly Speaking’, who’s message I copied it from. In context of HS’s message, where HS seems to be defending the pastor who is the ‘abuser’ of several people, I don’t understand how there can be an “other side” … seems like there is the side of the abused, and the abuser; and I’m having a real hard time understanding how anyone could take the side of an abuser. But I guess the bystanders will always speculate among themselves, many demonstrating their lack of compassion for the victims in their defense of the abuser, where they contribute to the wounds of the abused, rather than help heal them.
That’s one of the things that bugs me about the church today – how the notion of ‘democracy’ has crept into the church. What happened to unity – in the sense of taking action with someone who has sinned? Paul’s instructions in 1 Corinthians 5 about the man in sin with his step-mom was to an entire congregation – where he told them to put him out. No doubt there were feelings all around in the congregation, but once Paul admonished them to disciplinary action, and presumably the church elders acted on it, it was a done deal, because the church members understood that they were under authority of the Holy Spirit, who was operating through Paul and the church elders. In my way of thinking, when the church members begin questioning, even resisting the actions of the pastors and elders (where what they have done is genuinely the leading of the Holy Spirit), as many members as resist are being disobedient to the Holy Spirit’s leading. That is a true example of ‘rebellion’ I think.
Note, I know what I just said is treading on sensitive turf here (on the CBC blog), but this is a time when I believe the leaders of FLC (?) did the right thing, in defense of the congregation, to bring their pastor to acocuntability and heal a situation. The person who says “there is an other side” – i.e., one that is in opposition to the church leadership, and in defense of keeping the abusive pastor, is in rebellion.
Back here, we have seen church abuse in the news a lot. Our local TV comes out of Davenport, Iowa, where the catholic church has some pedophile priests. Parishes still support the priest (“he’s done so much good”, barf), the church cloaks the wrong-doing in institutional secrecy, the parent church organization drags it’s feet on disclosure and settlement, and enters even into the worldly arena of “money in exchange for no admission of wrong doing or apology”. It always astonishes me – the camera interviews of parishoners still going to the church, defending the pastor and mother church. Makes me nauseous really.
Admittedly, the abuse issue hits close to home here, because I have witnessed it and seen how denial enables the abuse to continue. And I know the “chameleon” personality type, that is a holy terror in secret, while being sweet and kind in public.
About Cotton, guess I’m saying that the real issue is between him, and his victims. The rest ought to shut the hell up and support the decision of the pastors and elders, and pray that God works it all out, with truth, repentence, and healing. Breaking rank with the pastors and elders on this one is rebellion, and frankly, a perpetuation of the abuse.
So what happened there this Sunday==its like a drama we want to see unfold
as in what is the end of the story? Did MFI take legal action against the elders-
did Doug show up and preach —Honestly Speaking where are you? We’d like to
see how it all turned out –Here’s to healing for all of you. If you know the truth the truth shall set you free–but no one said it may not hurt in the process.
However, what is the alternative?
I honestly don’t know the answer to your question Samaritan. See, I don’t know if our elders called those pastors with MFI or if Pastor Doug, once realizing the situation he was in, called in his “friends.” I believe the latter but that is ONLY my OPINION. I do know our elders wanted and still want to deal with this problem within the church without negative outside influences and lawyers. I inferred my point from Mr. Iverson’s letter that he supposedly wrote to the CLF congregation (we didn’t receive his letter until we got Pastor Doug’s letter – hmmm) that he spent an hour on the phone with the elders and not one had two or three witnesses as it so states in the Bible. I don’t even know if I believe he spoke with the elders. Regardless, I know this statement to be false. Yet, some at the church cannot think objectively and may conclude this to be true. I do agree with you that it was written to manipulate minds and further hurt the church. I found it reprehensible Pastor Doug attached these letters to his and sent it to as many members and congregants as possible. Of course I also felt this way about his letter and telling us that until God told him otherwise, he was still the Pastor of CLF. Not to mention this was all of course AFTER he agreed to resign.
The elders are humble men. They stood up to the bully for the sake of God’s church. They have been repremanded by those who think there is “another side,” yelled at, and had nasty letters written to them. Yet I hope and pray they remain strong and I believe they will. They are standing up to the bully and not cowarding.
I was sickened when Honestly wrote:
He/she writes from the perspective of Pastor Doug – “Not just Pastor Doug . . .” Pastor Doug’s actions are the cause of the tolls being taken on people’s lives. Pastor Doug’s actions are causing his toll. Pastor Doug’s actions caused the elder’s to take the course of action they did. Pastor Doug’s actions caused the hurt and pain that the victims now deal with. Who knows if some, being fragile at the time they experienced the abuse, will ever set foot in a church again to truly know God’s love for them, his grace and mercy, and His plan for their life. All because of Pastor Doug and his actions.
Then honestly goes on the say the “allegedly abused.” According to my Oxfod Concise English dictionary, the word allege means: 1) declare to be the case, especially without proof; 2) advance as an argument or excuse. So what we can infer is that honestly is saying this abuse is without proof and is being used as an excuse. Am I twisting his words? I simply looked up the word allege. This is what he/she has to say about the victims of Pastor Doug’s “alleged anger problem.” Oh wait, there are many witnesses so we have proof. Therefore, I guess it isn’t alleged but an “anger problem.” Does honestly need to see this outburst of rage from Pastor Doug to call a spade a spade? I’m deeply saddened and troubled. Is it not enough to know that NINE elders all saw this and felt the only thing left to do was ask for Pastor Doug’s resignation, which he gave. Nine elders and their wives, staff members and congregants who have all seen his anger. But honestly doesn’t believe them. He believes ONE man. He believes there is the “other side.” The abuser’s side. I agree with John 444:
I am thankful honestly isn’t an elder or the abuse may have continued. Anyway, thank you for listening to me vent again. : ) I like the objective comments.
And we like good dirt, Cousin IT.
Seriously, hang in there, bro. We’re pullin’ for ya.
‘Scrupe
Hey, I got a word for the turkeys in Aberdeen.
If one part of the body suffers, all the other parts share its suffering. If one part is praised, all the others share in its happiness. (1 Corinthians 12:26 GW)
Them of you what claim there’s another side, do you have any f’ing idea what you are doing in disputing and silencing the ‘allegedly abused’? You’re attempting to deal with pain in one part of the body by CUTTING IT OFF.
Dumbasses!
How will you hear with one ear? Walk with one foot? See with one eye?
Why not do the word, and treat that sensitive part with extra special care, love, compassion?
Thus sayeth ‘Scrupe!
As someone who has been “brainwashed” by blind loyalty and devotion to pastors, I understand how people could be on the pastor’s side and believe him to be the victim.
When you are in the “inner circle” or believe yourself to be, and when you are emotionally attached to your pastors and the church and the other “the emperor has lovely clothes on” people, you look the other way so that your perfect world doesn’t go away.
You know there are wrongs and some of them are quite troublesome, but ultimately you believe loyalty is key and you love them so much you want to “cover” their sins. In many cases, they have covered yours. How could you do less?
One of the things which rescued me from this kind of thinking was talking with (sorry, but it’s true) a different MFI pastor that I knew from Bible Temple days. He helped me realize that it was easier for me to BLAME MYSELF than to admit that my pastors could be wrong.
When I finally let my “perfect” world go, I was as free as a bird. I couldn’t believe how NOT sad I was.
If Pastor Cotton stays, his people should vote with their feet.
Fly away like a bird–the view is amazing.
KM
Just to make it clear to all of you. At this time, Pastor Doug is not employed at CLF. He resigned three weeks ago and the elders aren’t going back on that. But I agree with you KM, if Pastor Doug somehow, some way came back without first seeking treatment and then being released of his anger issues, I would vote with my feet. But I just don’t see that happening. Our elders won’t be bullied into doing something less than right.
Sorry Scrupe, I don’t have good dirt – just the facts! In Pastor Doug’s letter to congregation, he stated:
He also removed his request to meet with the elders as told to us on Sunday. Who know’s what the next move is by him. I really wish he would take the offer set forth by the elders and supported by the congregants (in money out of their own pocket) to go to the Meier Clinic for help. Denial is so blinding.
Besides enabling this dyfunction of behavior at the church –it would do Doug a diservice to stop the process of getting to the Clinic at this juncture. Once they get off this track they may never get the train on it again.
If he knows he has his spiritual covering/apostolic whatever on his side than he will never have to seek treatment unless his family has to step in and do an intervention sometime in the future. What board of elders would brave this again? This in essence was an intervention of love of the highest kind. Man I wish I could find something fun in this situation!
Start a betting pool.
This thread is a very interesting, dramatic contrast in viewpoints. I can’t help but to pay attention. It seems our church is laid out here on the cutting block…if you MUST cut, please do so with a little compassion.
It’s been said over and over that Grays Harbor is a “pastor’s graveyard”. I don’t know how many other areas of the country claim such a thing, but over the last 50-odd years here there have been dozens of churches rise and then fall primarily because of a scandal. Primarily around their pastor. Some of the stories are out-right bizarre, and many of them generally include obituaries.
Perhaps this is commonplace. Or, maybe because it’s that we’re on the fringes of civilization out here. Populated by an equal mix of rugged individualists and industrialized workaholics with everything in between. Were I a pastor founding a new church, this place would and should scare me silly.
Yes, to some extent I realize ANYone founding a church weighs up this risk. But here, the odds are very poor that a pastor and his family will survive the trial. I personally believe we have an Enemy strong in this area, the tell-tale signs of destruction are clear to anyone who pays much attention.
That’s my condensed history lesson, as I perceive things. If it’s boring or irrelevant to you; I do apologize. But this is the medium we operate in out here…not really what most of us would like.
I wouldn’t think of taking anything away from Pastor Doug. He has truly been an amazing instrument of God. I know, first-hand, some of the battles (spiritual and otherwise) that he’s fought. His is a story of courage, perserverance, and faith like you only read about…tempered with compassion and transparency which he presented in sermons eloquently. I don’t remember many of his sermons where he didn’t point out one or more of his own faults; learning from them, asking forgiveness, searching out God’s will in his mistakes and shortfalls. Truly an example of a “good pastor”.
However, we are NOT the Church of Pastor Doug.
He would be the first to tell you that. We honor God and Jesus, first and foremost. As much as I can love and honor Doug for his guidance and encouragement, it’s a given that everything good comes from God. Period.
And I know the other leaders; the pastors, elders, laymen and women who do so many things. Many of them know me, to my delight. Gifted, faithful, and truly wonderful people. Just about every one of them have worked closely with Pastor Doug for some time. Most were encouraged and guided by him to where they are now.
Yet, there’s been a problem. Of all these men and women who love Doug as our senior pastor, they voted unanimously to remove him. Does anyone think this was done lightly? When announced to the leadership, there wasn’t a dry eye in the house.
As much as I love and respect Pastor Doug, I know for a fact that our elders are as competant and pragmatic as anyone can ask for. Dedicated, and this includes the other pastors within our church.
Some other facts you may want to consider:
-Pastor Doug’s options were to resign as presented by the eldership, or to have the issue presented to our congregation. I believe this is a church by-law.
-All the other pastors must have their written resignations “on the table”, to be accepted or rejected by the senior pastor…whether Pastor Doug returns or another senior pastor is incorporated. None of our current pastors may assume the role of senior pastor for this contingency.
-I don’t believe an action of this nature has ever resulted in anything less than a church split, in this area. Pastor Doug is well-liked, influential within the community, and if so inclined could easily start another church with many attending. Those elders who aren’t required to have a resignation on the table all realize this possibility.
No, this wasn’t done lightly. Everyone involved has to put their very livlihood “on the line”. Not only that, Jesus himself will certainly judge what’s going on…it’s HIS church, after all.
In closing, I don’t envy the decision our elders felt compelled to make. I don’t know the details, nor do I want to. I do know that getting involved with discerning what’s right or wrong won’t help matters. Only love and compassion…God’s hallmark…will lead to any chance at all for reconcilliation. Being the largest church in the area, I can only hope and pray for the future it has.
My deepest apologies for the length of my post. Guess I needed to share this.
KM said:
KM ~
First let me say, it’s great to hear your voice and another freed soul from the maze!
The scripture “Whom the Son sets free, is free indeed” comes to mind here! Even though before you leave you are led to believe you are not hearing God if you leave. If that were true, then why do those of us who leave experience such FREEDOM!? It’s so interesting to me that those who leave an MFI church all have the same verbage, just as those in remaining in the MFI churches speak the same blah blah blah.
Even though I’ve experienced angst because I’ve left the former church (there are always repercussions to ones’ actions), I still always fall back on the fact that I am so much happier now and feel healthier AND have become more relatable to the people in my city. I’d rather have today’s angst to deal with than all the troublesome drama I had experienced in the old world that kept me confused more often than not.
MY GOAL is that the former life will be only a distant memory and that I will have compassion on those I’ve left behind. But to get from where I was to where I want to be, there’s a process inbetween that is valid. I’ve been asked by someone who cares for me deeply in the former church, why I care what happens in former world if I am no longer there. Good question. I do still care too much (partly because he is still there). Their repetitive rhetoric says I’m offended and haven’t forgiven. But that seems to sum up anything one disagrees with there. Yet, Jesus said offenses will come and yes, the way the former church deals with people IS offensive to me. I know I need to forgive that (yet not condone it), yet isn’t forgiveness a process too and something to work through? It certainly doesn’t help when I hear it’s still happening to others still there. I’m finding the same voice of intimidation that wanted to shut me up when I was there is still trying to shut me up now. I can’t decide if my voice needs to be heard for others who may feel trapped in what I also had experienced to be a cage, or if it’s just so I can process it all and get it all out. This isn’t a question I’m asking anyone but myself and God.
This post may not seem relative to this original blog, but in a way it is because it’s becoming clear that churches who adhere to the uncover doctrine (that john b. seems to be spreading like a cancer thru the body of Christ or at least thru the charismatic circles according to the add-infested publication ‘charisma’), all deal with the people in less than honorable ways and then try to call it the ‘dealings of God’ so that you can die to yourself and become more like Jesus himself etc. But didn’t Jesus question earthly authority all the time. Wasn’t that his purpose, to get people to look at the true “Father” and quit looking at the leadership of men for something only HE can give?
To sum up, the common thread in these churches is the leadership takes on too much of the ‘Father’ role, some people there want it, some people question it, an authoritarian atmosphere exists, control is present, shunning is practiced (not by all but by many), and most people who leave are considered mavericks yet when they leave they are relieved and free.
Hi Luke 44 ~
My post was as long as yours (we must have been writing at the same time!) and Jack’s can be very long, yet full of all sorts of discerning stuff and blog-worthy at that!
I’m glad you are posting as your voice is needed for all of us and your fellow churchmates.
Boise has been known as the same, a graveyard for pastors. It’s either adultery or money problems or infighting. Perhaps this is a Christian culture thinking or just the facts of life that every church is a potential graveyard since we live in a fallen world and there’s a battle going on–forces we don’t see but wrestle just the same; just as there’s a battle for each individual’s mind.
Just wanted to eek that out before our next bloggers descend
Where was MFI… When I needed them???? I had just a few complainers …and outsiders (state representative) tried to remove me. My congregation stood behind me. Anyone for grape koolaid
Sincerely,
Jim Jones
It would probably taste better in what my friends and I called “the Bible Temple Punch”…That red stuff that tasted like mouthwash and pineapple. Anybody remember drinking that nasty stuff in Ivy Hall?
[Comment ID #9452 Will Be Quoted Here]
I just came across this blog while doing some research and instantly my heart fell aprt. Some time ago I was part of this church and actually considered many of the people involved to be family. I sang inthe chior, served in children’s ministry and had fairly deep knowledge of the people within the church. Not that any of that matters because what upsets me is the lack of godliness in most of you who are blogging and those who were involved in the mutiny against Pastor Cotton. I do not believe that we should blame the victim or deny them the right to voice their story but I do believe that there is a point when things step into being wrong. The people who are claiming to have been hurt went about making their claims in the completely wrong way and they have allowed the spirit of the victim’s mantality to root deep in their souls. They have allowed Satan to convince them that they are the victim and that the only way to fix it is through vengence. WRONG!!! The Lord is your keeper and to come back at someone when they truly believe they have been forgiven because they have neem humble enough to admit their shortfallings and such is wrong. There was no forgiveness amongst anyone and those who hold the bitterness will be held responsible. For those who did the enabling…such as Rick Moyer…who will never be a true pastor…they too will have to live with the effects of this down the road. There will be people who are negatively effected by all of this and I think those of you who place blame all the time rather than looking inward are really the ones to blame.
Saddened,
I appreciate your comments and thoughts and we really could have used your viewpoint here a few weeks ago when this was a heavily debated topic.
I would like to point out one…well…let’s just call it a plank in your eye…
Now, I’m no expert on bitterness or anger but it sounds like you might have a few issues of your own to work through.
Just a thought…
Why?
[Comment ID #12104 Will Be Quoted Here]
a couple things. appearantly this is still a hot topic since yoou are still checking the site to look for new comments. also, you may call it a plank in my eye if you wish. however my opinion about rick being a pastor does not come from bitterness or anger…but rather from the several serious incidents in which i do not believe he behaved as a pastor would. i do not dislike him or have ill feeling toward him. i just simply see him as a showman rather than a pastor. a pastor cares for people and follows up. he reaches out to those who dont have others reaching out to them and he preaches the gosple to all not just those who he deems worthy. also a pastor steers clear from being in a spiritual rut…he tries to reach many through his sermons and not just those who connect to his style. Rick reaches for the rock kids, those who like big shows, loud music and the like. there is no room for the quite in his services.
[Comment ID #12107 Will Be Quoted Here]
i think i gave a few reasons as to why i do not feel rick will ever be a true pastor buti i will give a few more if you would like
he is about how things look rather than about the person or people he is in contact with. to me a pastor is someone who genuinely cares for all people…not just those who make one look good and i do not believe that God desires smoke and lights to bring people to him. i am not saying i think there is anything wrong with amping things up when it is appropriate but a weekly basis is a bit much to me. finally it is all personal opinion. others may see him as a pastor and may even call him their own. i however dont and wont. i dont trust him and that is something i think is important. of i cant trust a person then i wont call him or her pastor. i can think of several instances of personal interaction with him when he broke any string of trust that may have existed and that to me is not a pastor.
WOW. Did Saddened just describe Pope Wendell and Pope Frank and many others???
So.. Saddened…. are you saying that Doug Cotton does NOT have anger problems? That he is the perfect pastor?
Saddened said:
“…most of you who are blogging and those who were involved in the mutiny against Pastor Cotton. … The people who are claiming to have been hurt went about making their claims in the completely wrong way and they have allowed the spirit of the victim’s mantality to root deep in their souls. They have allowed Satan to convince them that they are the victim and that the only way to fix it is through vengence.”
OK, I have read this discussion for some time, and I have to comment now.
I have knows Pastor Doug as a friend, co-worker in ministry, and my pastor for 20 years.
He is a good man. God has used him to bless many people and lead many to the Lord.
Recently, he has had some difficult issues (anger amongst them) with which he has wrestled. He shared these struggles with us as a congregation.
Because the situation grew, the elders removed him from the position as senior pastor. It was a most gut-wrenching decision for them, his friends and co-laborers in ministry.
This was not a situation they tool lightly.
I know all of the people involved: Pastor Doug, all of the elders, all of the people who were harmed from Pastor Doug’s struggle with anger.
I pray for Pastor Doug’s recovery and eventual return to ministry.
The Bible is filled with stories of unworthy and sinful people whom God has set free and called to ministry.
I expect that Doug will have this pattern as his testimony after he is healed and is victorious in his current struggle.
Let’s not condemn him because he is down.
Let’s also not condemn the elders who had to make this gut-wrenching decision.
It was not a mutiny, by any stretch of the imagination.
There, I have said it.
With my own name.
And I have said it with more personal knowledge and personal history with all of the people involved, than perhaps anyone else that is posting on this blog.
Let the angry barbs fly. Let the psychanalysys begin.
But first, will you, begin with prayer and ask the Lord how he feels about ALL of his people involved in this current unfortunate situation that will, hopefully, turn into an dynamic story of God’s love and grace.
Thanks, I feel better for saying something!
Saddened,
Don’t look now, but you are blogging about a leader in just the way you “accused” us all of. Most of us here are NOT bitter either, AND really love or at least loved the people we are talking about. BUT, we are no longer “under their influence” and now recognize how wrong they were and how much they led us astray and often for the sake of mammon.
Welcome to the blog.
[Comment ID #12109 Will Be Quoted Here]
Interesting…I could be completely wrong but I am assuming that you don’t know Wendell or Frank, so to speak of them in such a sarcastic and accusitory way is strange to me. You may not agree with their involvement in the situation but they are not the ones who should be attacked in this. They were…just as everyone says about the elders…doing what they believed God would have them do. They were not acting controlling as I believe you are implying the Pope does and all interactions they had during this whole situtation were simply advisory. Anyway, that is beside the point.
I have other comments to get to.
[Comment ID #12110 Will Be Quoted Here]
No, I am not saying that Pastor Doug does not have anger problems or that he is perfect. No one is perfect. We all have flaws and things to work on. I am however saying that he did not deserve to be removed from the pulpit for his anger and that even if he did, which a few believe is the case, it was gone about in all the wrong ways. The elders, no matter how much they say they did, did not follow the by-laws and they did it sneakily. Not to mention the fact that they bypassed the whole go to your brother if he is sinning thing. They should have offered him the help before asking for his resignation. If he refused to get help or try to change then it would have been time to remove him. Pastor Doug has never denied his “anger issue” which is not the raging explosive kind of anger the elders described. He has always been very transparent about it and he has worked on it over the past few years and has never said he had completed that walk and was unwilling to go any farther. Then there is also the fact that every time he realized he may have offended someone he has asked for forgiveness and in every circumstance that was brought against him he truly thought he had been forgiven because he had asked for it and the “victims” had said he was forgiven.
[Comment ID #12115 Will Be Quoted Here]
Not that any of this blogging really matters…everyone has taken their side and this banter back and forth will change nothing. I suppose that I probably should have kept my thoughts to myself because I have now engaged in useless argument. I guess I just feel sad that people could be so hurtful. I may have voiced opinions about Rick that others dont agree with or that he may not like but I didnt do it while he was down. I didnt throw the fact that so many are against him in his face. I was merely sharing opinion about someone who has his church and group of supporters.
Finally, I have to say…I am impressed Dan. You had good insight. I dont agree, but all you said was food for thought and I am even more impressed that you put your name on it. I also have to say that I miss you. I am not going to reveal who I am at this point but I do think you are a great man. Perhaps sometime we can talk about life.
To all have a great day and I am sure I will read more as time goes on.[Comment ID #12112 Will Be Quoted Here]
Saddened… Yup. You are completely wrong. I have known them both for more than 25 years.
no more to say…i have my thoughts and i no longer wish to engage in useless arguments or banter. i am going to choose to love, especially he who has been ripped apart by those he thought truly loved him
Saddened said:
“Finally, I have to say…I am impressed Dan. You had good insight. I dont agree, but all you said was food for thought and I am even more impressed that you put your name on it. I also have to say that I miss you.”
If you are impressed with my comments, recognize my insight, and miss me, then you surely have some wisdom about you.
And, if you know me, you’ll appreciate that my previous conceited sentence was my off-the-wall sense of humor.
Seriously, I think I might miss you, too, except I have merely a theory as to your true identity.
(Are we talking blogs or superheros, here? No matter, I digress).
If you would like to email me at my super-secret email address, we might be able to get together.
Don’t tell anyone else, but my email is woodfam2@comcast.net.
I hope to learn who you are, so I can miss you with certainty, and then get together for lunch (my treat) so we don’t miss each other anymore!
Dan
Dan..
thank you for your insight and your comments. you are right on.
saddened…
i am…saddened that is…by the whole situation, by your obvious hurt about all this, and by the fact that you apparently have some blinders on about what has happened.
i know most everyone involved in this. I have respected doug cotton in times past. i have been a target of his anger years ago..forgave him and stayed. i have seen it happen to many other wonderful people. this was all about a long standing pattern of abusive anger…that by the way they did talk to him about and had him go thru 10 months of anger management classes..that has affected EVERYONE in the church and most especially his staff…even those closest to him. all of us are praying that he will be healed and restored and brought into ministry again. the man that i used to just love to hear preach has not been the same one for five years. in the beginning…his style and his manner was much like rick’s. over the years he has become much more “polished” and “showy”.
the anger outbursts were always followed by i’m sorry’s and dinners and all. that was supposed to make it all ok….until the next time it happened and there was always a next time. after a bit…it really has to stop.
i have been the victim of uncontrolled anger. your first instinct is to say…they really didn’t mean it. the next…oh they are sorry. the next… they’re working on it. fear becomes part of how you live and how you react to them. being very careful not to say or do or even look in a way that sets them off. but the change you pray for never sticks… and there is always another time. and they NEVER think it is so bad. and after a while… you cannot live that way any more.
lots of people have left the church rather than confront this anger and put a stop sign up. the elders put one up several years ago..they did not inform the church. the first step is ALWAYS PRIVATE. the second step less so… the last ones…which we were privvy to…are not. i applaud the elders for caring for the people enough to do what is best for them. it became obvious that doug did not think he had a SERIOUS problem and therefore did not see that there was a SERIOUS RESPONSE needed.
i hope that he finds healing and wholeness. I could never sit under him as pastor ever again. I know that the church has found a move of God in these past weeks that i have not seen in ten year. I pray it continues.
i pray for you…that you will find peace about this as all of us at CLF have.
Of course it was gone about in the wrong way, Saddened. For pete’s sake – the church has incorporated (in the ways of the world) such that they need non-biblical “by-laws”, make decisions by “popular vote”, they “install” and “remove” (fancy religious words for “hire” and “fire”) their elected leaders to authoritarian positions in a quasi-corporate top-down organization structure. So, having made their bed with the ways of the world, asking for the resignation of a pastor who has wigged out is really no surprise, and resorting to some behind the scenes politicking – well – that’s just another of the ways of the world, isn’t it?
CLF, and virtually every other institutional church is a mixture of things Biblical and the ways of the world. Any thought that perhaps the actions of the elders as led by the Spirit may have been hampered by the incorprated structure of the business side of the church? Did you see a collision between the way of the Father/Spirit and the ways of the world in this matter?
If CLF was wholly Biblical, and had made no compromises with worldly business ways, how might the handling of the Pastor Doug situation be handled?
Without the interferance of all that worldly red-tape, might the elders have simply been able to sit Doug down? Sorry, but I don’t see any hiring and firing of Church leadership in the NT. No buyouts. No elections. No 501(c)3 or whatever it is.
You guys have made a mess of things because CLF has compromised with the ways of the world.
You guys should listen to Judah and go “organic” at the systemic level.
[Comment ID #12122 Will Be Quoted Here] YUP,YUP,YUP- I bet you know them better than anyone. Wow! Your like so cool ……. You must be an expert! YUP,YUP,YUP
[Comment ID #12160 Will Be Quoted Here]
Cowboy, please stop commenting on this blog.
[Comment ID #12160 Will Be Quoted Here]
I kind of had to laugh at this a little
[Comment ID #12160 Will Be Quoted Here]
Yep, yep, yep.
Reminds me of Ducky, then little dinosaur on Land Before Time.
I have young children, yep, yep, yep, so I know these movie lines, yes I do.
Yep, yep, yep.
(roaring with laughter and my, how it feels so good to laugh!)
Yep, yep, yep……………….
You’re right. It is kind of funny. It’s just that cowboy has been trolling for comments the past couple of weeks and I’ve received a few complaints. So, I thought I would just try to slow it down for a second.
[Comment ID #12203 Will Be Quoted Here]
Is that what you call it??? Wow! I thought this “conversation” advocated dissent; however, it seems that only a disproportionate bias exists!!! In fact, a bevy of theological speak continues outside this blog; enhancing the texture and richness of “our” christian perspective!! Or correct me if Im wrong- Does this site “actually” have a corner on truth?!? Are all other conversations irrelevent?
I assumed sarcasm was relevent to the ongoing conversation but it seems a lurking bias balks at “sarcastic orthodoxy”,no matter how mild it might be.
Have you become your own best enemy??? It seems that dissent is not welcomed in all of its complexities; thus, you practice a kind of hyprocrisy……..Many on this site, including yourself, have been marginalized,silenced, and suppressed for an alternative perspective. Yet, you try to silence my unorthodox blogging because…..???
You have a passion for dialogue, dont you? Yes, then welcome “all” sorts of dialogue to the table. Lest you become like the “bad” folk that you scathe against!!!
Charitably, I admit sometimes, Cowboy…….
Cowboy… i got a couple of complaints that’s all. But yeah, it is kind of hypocritical for me to silence someone. Whatever… just try to be cool.
its funny to me that you aks that cowboy try to be cool when other people have been anything but cool in their postings on here…even me at times. this is really blog for people to talk meanly about others from what i have read and cowboy was just trying to add some humor.
But cowboy is like :
Off base
Clapping in the wrong key, wrong beat
Obnoxious
I know humor. Humor is a friend of mine. And Cowboy does not add humor.
Perhaps all of the discussons will be more beneficial, enlightening, to the point, and interesting if we all stayed focued on our experiences, viewpoints, and perceptions.
My suggestion is to leave the judgements about motivation out of the discussions.
Discussion without personal attacks can allow all participants to be heard and contribute.
Perhaps all of us have just a little bit of wisdom and insight to offer all of the others.
By all means, judge and comment on actions (such as cutting off a food bank), but let’s not make personal attacks on each other.
I don’t think anyone in all of these church leadership situations is evil.
People just struggle with things, and perceive things in certain ways, and each of those have impacts on other people.
It’s OK to judge the actions, but the person who makes wrong decisions is not necessarily evil, nor is the person who expresses support of the person who makes wrong decisions.
Those are my thoughts, in general.
Like Rodney King said: “Can’t we all just get along?”
Happy Thanksgiving +2!
Dan Wood
[Personal note to Saddened: Email me at my supersecret email address of woodfam2@comcast.net, so we can get together for lunch, etc.]
[Personal note to Saddened: Email me at my supersecret email address of woodfam2@comcast.net, so we can get together for lunch, etc.]
sometime soon perhaps.
also just so you know…the food bank was not “cut off” in the way or for the reasons that some may think. You are by all means free to judge that action according to your perception but the food is being given to another bank for various reasons.
Hmmm….I ‘percieve’ a pretty plain, well-stated reason for ‘cutting off’ the food bank. Just can’t read any hidden or pure motives between the lines here….silly me…I just take things at face value.
If there’s another side to this to story, I’d love to know it.
But your comment smacks of convenient pastoral speak. …errr, they’re manipulating you.
Saddened,
Are they providing food to another food bank on Grays Harbor?
If so, what food bank is it?
I hadn’t heard this part of the story, so I am interested in getting updated with objective information.
Justin: Can we just ask for the information and not suspect Saddened’s motives? He might have more to the story that would be helpful to know.
Thanks, everyone.
Dan Wood
I say go to the source.. Phone Wendell and ask why they are no longer supporting the food bank in grays harbor. Ask him if the statement you heard is correct, and if not, what is the statement
Dan: i cannot remember which bank they are providing food for but they are providing for one in the area. bank had asked them for help and since they do not want to be associated with CLF they thought that giving to someone else who asked for it was a good thing to do. in know that i can find out which one it is if you would like but i’ll have to do that at the start of the week since it is a weekend right now.
Hungry on the Harbor: in taking things at face value you have made a judgement about pure motives and i challenge you to think about the situation. there are many who do not beleive that the elders had pure or just motives and that on top of unjust and impure motives they did the thing all wrong, yet we are expected to honor what they did. you may not think that it was right for city church to remove their aid…but they believe that they church was acting in an ungodly way and unwilling to change and therefore did not want to beconnected anymore. whether or not i think city church was right or not…they were doing what they believed was right.
Justin: as far as manipulation goes…I am not sure who you think is manipulating me but i can assure you i think for myself. i have looked at both sides. i have asked questions of both sides and unlike some people i know i have come to my own conclusion about all things. i have never been one to follow the crowd and let others tell me how to think…so yes i am a bit offended that you would claim i am being manipulated. just because one does not agree does not mean that someone must be manipulating that person.
Thanks, Saddened.
If you could find out tomorrow and let me know, it would make it a little easier to accept.
I appreciate your effort to bring more insight to the situation.
And, for the record, I don’t think you are being maniupated or are part of some conspiracy.
I think it is good that you are participating in dialogue with people and I think you should ignore the personal barbs that are thrown around on this blog.
Meaningful conversation is good.
Thanks,
Dan Wood
I’ve been away for awhile and am catching up on this ‘reading’. But really, I thought ‘Saddened’ was a girl.
(Please don’t kick me off the blog for saying that.)
Absolutely. My bad.
And I am horrible at determining the gender of commenters on this blog. But I thought saddended was female as well.
[Comment ID #12107 Will Be Quoted Here]
Wow this is harsh….. He’s a great pastor……What’s with the mud slinging???
This mess is like a ping pong ball….
For me… Pastor Doug sent out an email telling people how much he loved them as their pastor…. Love covers…. If only Pastor Doug had covered the church he loves so much…Took the hard knocks he thinks he is getting and watched God move ….. Instead of trying to do this himself with the help of MFI, and his many followers..If you read MFI’S web site they have no business in the middle of this ….NONE…It’s against what they say they are ….The bible says do not take a brother to court, but MFI gives Doug a lawyer to sue the church… If only Doug had loved us enough to die for us… A man from MFI recently said he has never seen Doug angry in all the years he has known Doug….So in his eyes he doesn’t have the problems that have hurt so many people.. Let me ask you this…. If a man has molested one child and nobody has seen it does it go unnoticed???? Would this man then say I never saw it, never felt the pain of it, never hurt with the one it was done too ,etc….Didn’t happen.. I would die for the people I love….Nothing in this life is perfect … Done perfect… CLF did their best to help Doug, and try to protect the church …. By the way I am not taking up anybody’s offense…I just wish Doug would have loves us more then his words and covered this body and watched God move… Stoped on his knees and stayed their until God told him to get up…!!!! Stopped defending himself and let God raise him up… What glory that would have been…..
As I mentioned earlier, I attend CLF and know many of the individuals who are involved in the allegations against Doug Cotton.
Doug Cotton is alleged to have verbally abused, and, in at least one instance, physically assaulted a member of the church. If I were to look at this from a civilian standpoint, as if the church were a business, (And it is), and a supervisor were reported to have verbally abused their subordinates, the matter would certainly be addressed by the company, as they would potentially be liable in a civil action. (I.E. creation of a “Hostile Workplace” through sexual comments allegedly made by Doug Cotton to a female staff member)
In the instance where Doug Cotton is alleged to have physically assaulted a member of the church staff, there is no doubt what would have happened in the private sector. Assaulting a co-worker is a terminable offense in every corporation that I have ever been employed in.
Instead of calling the police, the staff member who was allegedly assaulted chose to report this incident to the board of elders, many, if not all of whom had previously witnessed first-hand Doug Cotton losing his temper and lashing out at those around him.
Much to their credit, the elders made a decision to ask Doug Cotton for his resignation.
Doug Cotton chose to deny the seriousness of this matter, and the aftermath of his choice is well-known.
After the “Reconciliation service” during which Doug Cotton initially accepted the need for him to step aside and seek treatment (Which CLF generously offered to pay for) Doug Cotton apparently changed his mind.
In my opinion, this matter was entirely up to CLF to resolve, as their rules dictated. A church is to discipline a pastor or elder who has strayed, and a christian is not supposed to sue another in court, which, unfortunately, is precisely what Doug Cotton allegedly threatened to do.
Doug Cotton’s attorney is alleged to have contacted every person who was in the position of elder of CLF, and is alleged to have informed them that if they said anything about this situation, that the attorney would file a “Defamation of charecter” lawsuit against each elder of CLF.
The threat of a lawsuit may have lead to the elders to being exceptionally cautious in discussing the events that lead to Doug Cotton’s resignation.
So, in the end, the question comes up as to what Doug Cotton whas thinking, and nobody would know that except Doug Cotton.
From my own, personal viewpoint, it appears to me that Doug Cotton thought that he, rather than the church and God, should be the final authority in this. Doug Cotton’s actions have lead to this situation, and in my opinion, the saddest thing of all is that Doug Cotton had a glorious opportunity to accept the situation, regardless of whether or not every single detail of the allegations were true.
Doug Cotton could have humbled himself, accepted that he must need some help, accepted that help, repented his actions and come back into the church as a true leader.
Doug Cotton chose his path, and his path nows leads to somewhere other than CLF. That is unfortunate, both for CLF and for Doug Cotton, but most of all for the truly helpless, hungry and the poor of Grays Harbor, who are directly impacted by the physical hunger that is now being imposed on them by the decision of Pastor Wendell Smith (Possibly with the consent or knowledge of Doug Cotton) to deny CLF’s food bank, “The Lord’s Pantry” access to the tons of food that The City Church collects to feed the hungry.
James 1:27
Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
Pastor Wendell Smith is alleged to have written a letter to CLF stating that what happened to Doug Cotton is “An abomination”.
I believe that starving innocent children and the hungry is an abomination, as opposed to holding a Senior Pastor accountable for his own actions.