Whenever the City Business Church has blogged about Jonah Judah, a few of his blind devoted followers whine about it rise up in defense of him despite his immature antics as an anointed man of God. And so, to cheeze off Judah's groupies I listened to an entire message oh the nausea of it, to experience the hot air anointedness for myself.
Reference: Judah Smith, The Way of the Water Pot, from John 4:1-29 (Woman at the Well) and John 7:37.
Message summary: God is a river, a limitless source of living water. We are wells, but thirst because we still rely on worldly water, and when we go to God, we have a water pot mentality. Once we have met the Messiah we should, like the woman at the well, leave our water pot behind, and go to the river that is God.
The message however was very difficult to listen to, for several reasons. Here's a breakdown of some of the things that troubled my spirit:
:00 Plugs church membership seminar / trumps free breakfast; but doesn't know all the details and has to call on 2 other pastors to confirm the date and time. He knows enough about the event to announce it, but not the details. (Seemed awkward. Is he unprepared, or was that just a device to recognize the other pastors, or portray himself too important to be bothered with details? Seems like self exaltation, as in "I don't know the details – let me ask my assistants.")
:50 Acknowledges someone named Luke.
1:00 Plugs the Huskies. "Hey the Huskies are 2 and 1, football. Come on; TWO and ONE! Did you notice that AFTER Sean came to GC, the Lord just anointed him; got almost 100 yards and a touchdown. I told him I said 'Sean you just keep comin' to GC the Lord's just gonna keep blessin' ya.'"
1:20 A nearly 9 minute long animated and contemporized reading of the scripture. Scolds people for talking in the 3rd person – says only the Messiah should do that – declares that to be "good preachin' already". Several personal anecdotes. Calls the woman at the well the first "Desparate Housewife" … says "you should not watch that show by the way – I've never seen an episode – shame on you."
10:00 Prayer
10:40 Supposedly beginning the message now following the prayer. Judah announces "There's a green Honda Accord and black Impala about to be towed behind the building – run screaming from the building now – sorry brother that's kinda awkward – Shalom" (audience laughter).
11:00 "I'm a … I'm a shower guy … my father in law takes a bath every morning" … On honeymoon his wife asks "what are you doing" … Judah replies: "I enjoy the feeling of cascading water on my naked body" … talking about taking baths, he says: "Forgive me, I can not pray to God naked" … "OK, that's awkward … awright … I don't know about you, but it's like, Lord, um, anyway Lord, uh …" … "But I've tried the bath thing … Baths freak me out because there's no like suction – there's no removal of the dirty water – it's clean until you get into it and then you're sitting in the cesspool of yourself … think about it folks … what is up with this bath thing …"
14:00 Talks about his house and shower, and showering … talks about washing his armpits – does animation of arm-pit washing.
16:00 Talks about his wife flushing toilet on him while showering.
18:00 Talks about his house's water pressure and his wife saving money for fixing it.
19:50 Finally starts talking about "living below our means" in terms of God's available resources.
21:30 Tells the story of a guy who he met in High School and led to the Lord, who's dad owns a state-wide chain of businesses, they're millionaires, but the young man has chosen to work elsewhere saying "I want to make my own way." Three times Judah says he told his friend "You're an idiot", then tells him "that is ridiculous … that is your inheritance … go to work for your dad, he'll make you a manager …"
23:00 – 35:00 Comments on the scripture passage. Some points repeated from the original 1:20 – 10:00 scripture reading, but re-told in more detail with stage antics (showing off / entertainment), vocal impressions, with many pop culture expressions, from whispering to yelling for effect. In his retelling of the account, he resorts to some conjecture, and imputes motive to Jesus and the woman at the well for why the conversation unfolded the way that it did. One funny comment about 'noon' being the typical lunch time for the Israelites, as if that was a revelation or the result of scholarly study.
36:00 "Pastor Judah can you fill up my water pot – oh man that was a good word – fill it up … feels so good" – bangs on a pot … (this seems to be a mocking of people who come to GC and rely on Judah to fill them up – a strange comment – for without those people, Judah has no audience). Having seen some videos of Judah, I also imagine he's strutting the stage during the several long pauses. He's part evangelist, part stand-up comic, part child who needs to be the center of attention.
37:00 "You just come back next week, I'll share part II …and you, you might even go to hell unless you come and hear part II …"
39:20 Sings version of "I'm a little Teapot"
41:40 "I am not here to fit in … We are here to take over"
47:10 Closing prayer. Queue background music.
47:50 Closing exhortations.
50:10 End.
Margin note: Message peppered with belittling epithets such as "watch this" (must think the audience blind), "think about it" (must believe the audience doesn't think) and "come on now" (must think the audience is mule-like).
CONCLUSION: After listening to the message, I don't doubt Judah's love for God, his passion for people, or that the Holy Spirit resides within him. The essential meat of the message was thoughtful, but could have been delivered in 5 minutes and the scripture read in 2. The rest of the message (about 40 minutes) was largely repetition, self-exaltation, entertainment, crude references, and mocking of others through ignorant-sounding vocal impressions which at times, sounded to this author like a sometimes stereo-typical inner-city black person. For me, the message was very nearly lost amid Judah's worldly performance. Based on the audiences obvious amusement, this author is convinced that Judah's groupies do NOT know the difference between "anoint-ment" and "entertain-ment".
I have mixed feelings after listening to Judah's message. Judah is a good kid, and I think if I knew him personally, I'd like him. His youth, zeal, humor, and caricatures remind me of someone I once knew well, but who needed his butt kicked routinely by someone older, wiser and more mature. Judah's zeal is consuming him, and ultimately, the message. He is relying entirely too much on theatrics to promote himself and sell his message. True anointment doesn't need theatrics. If Judah's friends or 'inner circle' of supporters had room for a mature and seasoned elder in the body of Christ, someone who has endured the cross unto the crucifixion of the flesh, who through the years had learned humility, I have no doubt that elder's advice to Judah would be to rely on the Holy Spirit to convey the message while making a humble and mature presentation of the gospel, and to quit relying on his water pot filled with feel-good quick-fix worldly water (antics and theatrics).
That leaves me with just one recommendation. Judah, you need to lift up Christ Jesus more, and Judah Smith less. Sorry brother that's kinda awkward. 1 Corinthians 2:2. Shalom.
Sam
Wow. How immature he is. He is, what, 27 years old? What a potty mouth he has and a mind in the gutter….. all the time exaulting his mouth and mind in the name of Jesus.
I’d be curious to recall if the “esteemed” father of his was so crude at that age. I sure dont recall his messages being so trashy/self-exaulting/bedroom talk/bathroom talk…
Someone needs to take this GROWN MAN/KID out to the woodshed.
Seems to me that preachers often deliver a message that is more relevant to themselves than their audience. As if trying to pin their own short-comings on the people they are preaching to – kind of ‘projecting’ their crap-bag on others.
For example, there’s something very “prophetic” about Judah’s admission that he can’t pray naked. Consider it in context of the prophet Isaiah, who went naked for 3-1/2 years. Metaphorically, Isaiah did not need any covering (clothes/costume) to prophesy (to touch and speak the heart of God) because he had the covering of the Holy Spirit. Judah on the other hand, in saying he can’t pray naked, admits albeit unintentionally I’m sure, that he can’t approach God without his covering/comfort/costume.
The advice of Samaritan to Judah seems to be “get naked before God” – i.e., lose the costume.
A question also occurs to me:
Isn’t an offering plate a form of water pot? Seems so weird to preach “leave the water pot behind because God is a river of limitless power and inheritance”, and then turn around and pass their ‘waterpot’ offering plates to collect money. Why not do what he preaches, and rely on the power / river of God to provide, without passing the ‘water pots’?
It’s all so ironic to me.
‘Scrupe
Yikes! being new to your blog, I haven’t read much on Jonah-Judah yet, so it’s great to get a summary.
Can’t help commenting on his telling philosophy when he implores the kid to work for his dad, he’ll make him a manager. (By the way, what a pastoral thing to say to a new Christian: “You’re an idiot!”)
I read a great article in Consumer Magazine a few years back on whether various successful CEO’s employ their kids in their own companies. What stood out to me is they seemed to favor sending their kids off to work for another company to become a good employee there. Later, if they want to apply for work at the family company, after they’ve learned a valuable work ethic, then they have a job interview with references. Seems best for the kid and best for the company. The word idiot does not come to mind at all when I think of this criteria for hiring your kid.
Idiot does come to mind, however, when I think of the opposite.
If you hire your kid and exalt him too quickly, the other valuable employees who have been working their butts off for you for years have to move over for some inexperienced and immature brat who knows less and performs less, yet, of course, makes more money. It’s a scenario you hear of often. Books, screen plays, movies, songs are written about the injustice of employing spoiled children who lord their last name and position over their dad’s or mom’s underlings (i.e.loyal employees). Eventually, if there is not an intervention by the other employees, the kid runs the company into the ground and it goes belly-up.
Now, tell me, who is the idiot here?
Judah cannot pray unless he is wearing the latest designer clothing from the Rail at Nordstrom.
I actually work at the DT Nordstrom in PDX, and see Judah ALL THE TIME. Of course, I also see Doug Lassit, and all the other CBC/GC leadership as well. And — guess what? They do not buy out of need, they buy out of greed.
When you buy jeans that are $200+, shirts that are $100+, and shoes that are $100+, and you are continually buying NEW clothes (in order to remain “fashionable”)– well, it seems quite obvious, to me, that they are more concerned with their status before Man than with their status before God.
It would certainly be nice if more church leaders lived according to Matt 6:24-34
Yet another common thread between the 3 churches in Portland Kirkland and Boise.
Ha!
Back here all ya need is a John Deere hat. If you ain’t wearin’ one, ya must be a foreigner. Head to the cafe for breakfast – it’s a sea of John Deere green. Then the one guy walks in with his red Case/IH hat – oh the glares!
If Judah wore them designer clothes to lead a worship service here, people would think he was “gay”. That spikey hair he has in the YouTube video – would only confirm ‘gay’ here. Where someone like Judah preaches a hip / relevant message, it would be real funny to hear him try to work in stories about feed corn, soy, hogs and tractors.
“Yup – you betcha – Jesus is just like a John Deere – always plowin’, plantin’ and harvestin’”
Oh the stories we could tell on this metro sexual look thing here -once the youth pastor does it all the other kids start to copy it–if only they knew what people around town were saying and how we had to ‘try’ and defend them constantly–
no he’s not gay. someday we’ll explain how we started to notice how the men were become emasculated and we started to wonder why…….was it submission taken to an extreme –more fruit.
Don’t get me started on the Prada Purses by the Youth Staff–that is some of the youth staff –while the rest of congregation buy theirs at Walmart. Did you
see the movie ‘The Devil Wears Prada’ —our life!
What’s Judah doing shopping at Nordies in PDX? Used to be several in the Seattle area … Southcenter mall was closest to where I grew up – they had one.
One of the better places to get clothes back here is Blaine’s Farm ‘n Fleet, Tractor Supply Company, R’s – they all got a great selection of affordable jeans and western shirts, and outer garments for people who work for a living – my fave manufacturer is Carhartt … the ‘camo’ look is real in back here.
This all sounds a little petty to me. If the guy likes nice clothes than so be it. I don’t care if he spends his money on fashion or retirement or Camel Lights or anything esle for that matter. It’s his money, his problem.
I did however appreciate hearing about Blaine’s Farm ‘n Fleet. Sounds like a nice place.
RP:
I agree, what Judah does with his money is his problem or perogative. Perhaps you aren’t getting the connection here between the over-the-top lifestyle of the megachurch star wannabees and the fact they are living off the tithes and donations of the church members/goers. I have no problem with church leadership being taken care of, to a point. but I do have a problem with blatent excessiveness enabled by the salaries that these kids are paid by their parents when the money could/should be allotted to beef up the ministry of the church especially in regards to the poor amongst them.
The reason I have a problem with it is because 1. wouldn’t that tip off the IRS that these churches are dangerously close to losing 501-C status? and why should they remain a 501-C if they are getting rich off the people? and 2. While the lovely clothes may keep them in good standing with other upper class peers, what is it doing to further the chasm between them and those who can barely pay the rent or feel less than because God hasn’t chosen to bless them as much?
Yeah, I see where you are going with all that, but still…
Are all pastors/preachers supposed to be poor? Should they always appear poor? We may think it’s shallow, but who are we to decide? Everyone has to make a living for themselves. If he’s found a way to make a fair amount of money then good for him. What he spends it on is his business.
If you were going to his church and giving money to that church you may have some room to complaign, but really…
it just sounds petty.
Send me your tithe.
Beats Wally World.
They got stuff in there JP, that if you grew up in the city, you just stare at it and wonder “what on earth is that?” … and ya don’t dare ask any of these guys or they’ll tell ya a long story with no point and then try to get you to go snipe huntin’ or cow tippin’ with them. 
Hey – I threw in the ‘camo’ thing as a joke – but it’s not I guess. They are promoting a line of clothing called WorkCamoâ„¢ back here … now I’ve learned a lot about the midwest since moving here from Seattle in ’99, but I’ll be darned if I can figure out what the heck a farmer needs with a ‘camoflage work’ outfit, to harvest corn. I know what woodlands camo looks like, but I have never seen ‘corn camo’ or soybean camo. And for the dairy farmers, do they have ‘cow camo’ where guys look like a advertisement for Gateway computers?
I’m gonna stick with my blue jeans and worn out Dawg hat. They’re nuts back here!
You are right again. I don’t go to his church. But I did go to the church here in Boise that reeks of the same stuff and that’s why still I’m touchy about it I guess.
Absolutely not. The other extreme is what Judah’s dad and cousin came out of– the old Nazarene way (don’t think the Naz’s still do this) of moving the pastor around and barely surviving. What’s wrong with finding a balance between the two?
This issue is one I’ll be laying down eventually, am in process of letting it go. But to say it’s petty minimizes the reasons I’ve beforesaid. It’s not just about the stupid clothes it’s about the prevailing attitude that goes with it. In fact, if the attitude weren’t present, the clothes wouldn’t even bother me.
BTW, Unscrupulous, if I send my tithe to you, will you share it with John 444 ? He may need something at the Tractor Supply Co. :O
Corn444 lives in PodunkvILLe. I spend most of my time at Kel’s Pub in Portland. Besides He’d just waste it on implements or somepin’.
The tithe is meant to be ate, and drank. 
I agree with that.
You have no idea the excesses going on down here. Someday we’re going to spill all we know but till then we blog away inch by inch.
Maybe you should create SIF: or Sheep International Fellowship
I doubt if he has ever have to go FIND a way to make a fair amount of money…
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Yeah: “I work for MY dad; he made me a MANAGER. My only other employment option was: ‘do you want fries with that’ … it was a no brainer.”
ya, guess i’m being too hard on the boy. who’s to say i wouldn’t do the same given the options…
Just don’t lord it over your church members than–that is the thing that people hate the most –the ones who have to work very hard for a living. It’s like having to live next door to the Royal Family and the young royals–they have inherited everything and live a life people dream about. Why have the church’s adopted this attitude –do they forget the money-salaries- that provide for this lavish spending is what people are giving to God –it is not their personal cash account.
Maybe when you grow up in it you don’t have any idea of where it actually comes from…..maybe its time they got a clue…..Jim and Tammy Bakkers daughter ended up living in a trailor park within a few miles of Heritage USA trying to make ends meet like the rest of America when it all came crashing down. Hhmm….something to think about………
Reminds me of the old testament examples of the priests living in extravagence off the people. God wasn’t thrilled.
It is wrong to lay heavy guilt trips on people to give a false meaning of tithes. Right is right and wrong is wrong! Yes, a false meaning of tithes, that is what a lot of preachers are teaching, getting rich and keeping the poor, poor. Ask them for help and watch some of them come up with a lame excuse not to help, “like you didn’t ask in the proper time frame.” Or they’ll preach in away that will make you afraid/ashamed to ask for help.
In the Bible tithes were giving ONCE a year, sometimes every THREE years. Tithes were only for the Levite priest, no other priest. Tithes were sin offerings; not from your weekly pay. Tithes were specific things, that procreated. Fruit is fruit. Money is money. Often I hear the word “fruit” misquoted from greedy false teachers of the law. There are so many scriptures misquoted from false teachers of the law. I know all the tricks they use to sweet talk (soothsay) you out of your money.
The reason tithes were given once a year and sometimes every three years is because crops needed time to grow and animals needed time to procreated. God commanded that specific instructions be carried out for the tithe. The animal had to cut a certain way, and certain portions had to prepared in certain ways, and it couldn’t be just any animal. The grain offering had to be prepared using certain methods. In the Bible you’ll never read how God accepted your salary as tithes. To preach tithing is to preach a different Jesus! Jesus paid the price in full for us! He is our redeemer, not our money and our righteous acts. Sins are forgiven ONLY if blood is pour out for us. This is why Jesus poured out His blood for us. Jesus gave us a new promise…we are no longer under the Old testament promise. The church doesn’t need tithes to sustain itself, that’s ridiculous!
Think about this, you have 150 people faithfully giving tithes each week, lets say the average person brings home 2,500. most people bring home way more; each person gives $250 a month. Take 250 X 150=37,500 a month! Wow! That’s a lot of money! 37,500 a month! It is shameful how they lay heavy guilt trips on you to give a false meaning of tithes every Sunday. They tell you you’re selfish and greedy if you don’t tithe and slap you in the face with Old Testament Malachi as if that scripture really applies to their false meaning of tithes. Really who is the greedy one? I haven’t even mentioned the other three baskets: building fund, benevolent fund, offerings. If people would just read their Bibles and search things out to see if what they’re telling you is true they wouldn’t get conned by these false teachers of the law. They’re cunning just like the Bible indicates…scripture twisters…
There are 613 laws in the Bible and the Bible indicates that if you do one you must do all. That means you cannot eat pork, wear clothes mixed with linen and wool. So if your preacher is asking for tithes, does he know that he must keep all the other laws? Do you see him eating pork chops, bacon, ribs?
Hebrews 10, indicates that blood sacrifices (tithes for sin) was offered year and year, not week after week. Again the sacrifices wasn’t money. Also, Hebrew 10 indicates that there is no longer a need for these sacrifices (tithes for sin)…I hope the truth has set someone free from the bondage of a false meaning of tithes.
That is an excellent point. I use the same arguement when I run into a person who is homophobic. I usually ask them if they put their wives into a hut during their time of uncleanliness (Menstrual period).
Tey are usually dumbfounded when I point out that if they are going to follow LEVITICUS to the letter, they have to do that, too.
Picking and choosing which part of the Bible to follow seems to be a common thing among Christians.
I bet it would be refreshing to the people if the people could find meaningful hobbies. This website isn’t one. It obviously feels good to vent and repay people for the hurts they have caused us but is it the right choice? We all do it and justify it sometimes….. kind of like we all sin. Sin isn’t cool it just feels that way.
I am mildly sad to see yet another instance of bored, confused “Christian rogues” fighting each other over something that they themselves don’t agree with. You can receive the high from the enemy by “getting yourself off” all day long. I don’t believe it is right. Feel free to nuke my opinions im just passing by and won’t fight back.
Maybe some of us should have listened to our mothers a little better (I know I should have) — If you don’t like something ignore it.
I don’t believe this sort of thing is gaining any type of approval from God (maybe thats not what you are going for). You may believe you are exploiting a unjust cause…….and maybe….you are. Who really knows (maybe many of you are convinced that you do….sadly). However, even if you are, there are about a bajillion other things you could be doing to advance the kingdom that are worlds more beneficial and productive than this….the writing is on the wall.
This just is a stumbling block for many good people out there in the church. Ignorance is such a blindfold sometimes, I know….but there is hope.
Just some food for thought that will very likely be ignored or bashed. Good luck either way. Please pray sincerely to God so he may open your eyes.
Beef Brisket is my favorite bbq meal at the bbq joint.
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Does anyone know of a church that doesn’t blik you, that doesn’t play mind games to control you, that doesn’t pressure you to volunteer for all their fund raising events, so you can make them rich?
I’ve visited so many churches and this is all they seem to do. I’m getting tired of everybody acting so spiritual, like God is speaking to them to tell me what to do. I believe that the Old Testament prophecy has been completed with the New Testment that Jesus gave us and I don’t think there are real prophets out there, because the Bible indicates that we’re not to add to the Bible or take away, meaning that we’re not to say God said something that He didn’t…Can I get someone elses take on this?
That always begs the question:
“Then why are you here?”
Hi Karen,
To the extent that we manifest the Lord, who abides within us, we will also manifext the various spiritual gifts He has given us through the Holy Spirit, among them prophecy.
However I do not think the Father intends any of us to take titles and labels, like prophet, evangelist, apostle or the like, as much as He simply wants us to be His sons, manifesting THE Son by our surrendered lives.
I’m not sure I’ve ever met a prophet, though have heard a number of brothers and sister speak prophetically (where prophecy is truth and the testimony of Christ (Revelation 19:10)).
Where the ‘spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Christ’, we are all prophets/esses in as much as we testify of Christ’s work in our life.
I’m not sure I believe in ‘predictive’ prophecy Karen, of the sort we just heard from Pat Robertson who says there will be a devastating terrorist attack in the US this year. The Lord has however spoken words to me for me and my family, which have come to pass, though I didn’t understand the words when He spoke them to me.
Sam
I’m not a member of this church but I have a few things to say. Rather than focusing on the money the church seems to be “robbing” from the people, or the “brainwashing” schemes, or even how the youth pastor spends his money (or where) I feel like maybe we’re forgetting to look at the fruit of the ministry. For one, I think having young people spend their time in church is probably much better than about 20 other places I can think of where kids like to hang out now-a-days. Two, I believe this church is teaching essential principles to atleast find God by reading your Bible and praying daily (both good things). Third, I understand that it may displease some people to see leadership displaying such extravagance, but lets not forget that it’s the kids who are giving their money, which in my opionion is amazing and gives me hope for the upcoming generation to atleast know what it feels like to give money for a cause. Now the most important thing is that kids are being saved and coming to know Jesus, can we atleast give them the benefit of the doubt and believe in their intelligence enough to let them figure out for themselves who God is? Or better yet, can we please take God out of the box that says he can’t reach people through an imperfect church? May I share with you that I have yet to find the perfect church who will not offend anybody in anyway. This is why I stick to the Church God has planted me in and I serve in the way I think God would want me to serve and I know my church has its problems too, but thank God for Jesus….and maybe we could let Him be the judge of all this…
…in the meantime, I feel sorry for any member of this youth church who accidentally stumbles upon this blog and then suddenly feels insecure about their Christianity…my prayer is that you won’t go from Church to Church looking for perfection like I did, and ask God to show you what’s right, He will because even when we are faithless (and insecure) He’s faithful.
This is a very interesting blog. How many of you know judah, doug and krist? How many of you been to their homes? How many of you have ever sat down and talked with them? Probably none of you. Its easy to get on this thing hide behind a fake name and spot off at someone. Buch of cowards.
I love it when someone drops in to correct us … never seems to occur to them that they can’t challenge/question the leadership where they attend church, but they can here …
Thanks for the post, Anon …
Sam
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What’s your full name Karen?
Oops. My bad. Wow–what’s your name?
Wow said:
March 28th, 2007 at 3:49 pm
So, uh, like “Wow” would be your real name, then?
‘Scrupe
[Comment ID #24647 Will Be Quoted Here]
I’ve known Doug long before he ever became a pastor. I knew Judah and his family when he was just a wee lad. I’ve watched them both over the years and even served with Doug in many different ways. I can say without a doubt that nothing on this blog about either of them is slanderous or untrue in any way.
Anon & Wow, you would do well in life to examine the real fruit and character of the leaders you idolize rather than assume that they are “awesome” or “anointed” simply because they put on a good show.
I went to school with Donna, (as in: rode in her car several days a week).
My wife lived with Doug and Donna after they were married. We were good friends.
In Redmond, (when he lived at home) I slept on Judah’s floor, drove his GMC SUV, picked up his friends from the airport, got him coffee, blah blah blah.
What does this prove? Is the fact that what they’ve become breaks my heart now more valid “wow”? Are you satisfied?
More like: It’s easy to do a drive-by trolling without really understanding what’s going on here. Nice knee-jerk reaction, you are the epitome of the Church.
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I’m sure only a few privileged inner circlers get to go to their houses and they seem to be very selective on who they let in and when.
I agree Sam, and I see not much changes over time does it? If these people only knew how redundant and predictable they sound. It really is interesting how folks periodically do a drive-by corrective thing and then don’t come back to spar. It’s kinda nervy to call out ‘coward’ when, as the old saying goes ‘the pot is calling the kettle black’ or something like that.
I am a Christian, I love the Lord with all my heart, soul and mind…I am so glad that I am no longer in bondage to a false aposle/prophet who knows how to put on a good show. Someone who uses scriptures to soothsay or should I say gainsay…they’re cunning, but thank goodness for Jesus! I love him, because if it weren’t for his word, which is the final authority on scriptures, I would be like all those poor Christians believing in toxic faith, falling for prosperity preaching, idolizing their preacher honoring him more than their own parents…(like a groupy) giving them their last dime, before they’d feed their own children…thinking that this is what God wants them to do, because they’re brainwashed or should I say brain dirty. They put all their hopes and dream in a mere mortal soul, believing in man’s twisted preception of God. Like God really wants you to give your last ten percent of your pay check to a man. How is giving to a man giving to God? The Bible says that God owns everything! What does God like best about the tithe? The pleasing aroma…the burnt sacrifice…now that Jesus is that perfect lamb of God and paid the price in full…there is no need for giving tithes… I thank God I don’t think like that foolish pharisee anymore, people who give tithes, do it out of guilt and compulsion…and believe me they’re watching to see who else is giving….and they judge others who don’t, thinking they’re more holy, but really they’re being spiritually pimped. I feel sorry for them because they could be saving for retirement or they could just have more money to spend on their family, but they’re so wrapped up in false teaching, and they actually think they’re better than those who don’t tithe; sad how superficial church has become…It was the sinner who was more justified than the faithful tither….
I love it when someone drops in to correct us … never seems to occur to them that they can’t challenge/question the leadership where they attend church, but they can here …
Thanks for the post, Anon …
Sam
No, thank you, Sam..I should have said *I am no longer a member of this Church* meaning, yes they were once my leadership, and no, I have no harsh feelings towards any of them. God called me to “visit the widows and orphans in their distress”…and to “sell all I have and give to the poor, and follow him”. Which means I don’t have time to check this blog (and I only hope that Jesus doesn’t return while I am because I would be embarrassed) which may be the reason I haven’t “come back to spar”, but I would be happy to acquiesce to any meaningless debates you would like to unfold…that is when I’m not busy here with the kids.
so in my response to this :
“Anon & Wow, you would do well in life to examine the real fruit and character of the leaders you idolize rather than assume that they are “awesome†or “anointed†simply because they put on a good show.”
I would have to “spar” back with : 1.) I don’t remember saying they were “awesome” or “annointed” so I think those might be your words. and 2.)I guess I am the “real” fruit of these “characters I idolize,” but I have to correct you and say that the ONLY character I idolize would be Jesus Christ. Maybe I was one of the lucky ones smart enough to figure out how to read the Bible for myself. How did I ever survive the city church?
*I apologize for being so predictable. I look forward to hearing you point out the predictability in this comment, and I’m truly sorry for the pain any of you have ever had to suffer on account of this Church or any other Church…I hope that someday we can all just be the brothers and sisters I think God would want us to be and to love one another with that mysterious love the Bible talks about but none of us seem to quite comprehend.
Another quote of the year nominee. Good work Anon.
thanks
I’d rather the kids find out the truth now at 13, 14, and 15 and not 18, 19, and 22 or worse. 42. Some people would honestly prefer for these people to go on brainwashed with their heads in the sand. Not cool.
Well said Jennifer—I don’t care how rockin it seems to appear
a worship fest is a worship fest. The question is who are you worshipping?
No thank you!
Yes, who are you worshipping? Read your Bible and search things out to see if what they are telling you is actually the truth. Take heed to this, there is a difference between giving and tithing, and false apostles are cunning, the Bible indicates that they are greedy! WATCH OUT FOR FALSE APOSTLES! Where there’s a false apostle there are FALSE PROPHETS! They have received a DIFFERENT spirit…
2 Corinthians 11:3But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough…. 9And when I was with you and needed something, I was not a burden to anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied what I needed. I have kept myself from being a burden to you in any way, and will continue to do so. ..12And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
Paul Boasts About His Sufferings
…18Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast. 19You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise! 20In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or pushes himself forward or slaps you in the face. …
I used to attend a church where the preacher claimed to be an apostle. Yes, he was very cunning…very greedy…just like the Bible indicates. He was so greedy (still is) he has his congregation convinced that if he asks for it they are to give him whatever he ask for.
He puts on a good show. The music is awesome! This is what does, he preaches in a way that scares the hell out of everybody…He preaches a mean scary God who doesn’t really love everybody..He preaches that God loved Jacob, but hated Esau…God hates the workers of eniquity…He’d twist scriptures out of context to scare you and bilk you. He masquerades as servent of righteousness, he always insinuates that he is telling the truth. He uses mystic manipulation (cunning) he gets people caught up in emotion, by putting on a good show, and scaring them so that they faint. No miracles happen, people just faint.
True apostles in the Bible were able to perform miracles. False apostles just talk about them, even if they were to perform a miracle doesn’t mean they are real. If what they teach doesn’t line up with scripture, they’re false. If what they prophesied doesn’t come to pass, they are not true prophets. If you were to attend this church, you would find, people exalting him, honoring him more than their own parents and family, he has them thinking they must pay him first. You’ll see all kind of baskets and yes men holding them…ready to receive your money for him, because they’re bewitched to believe everything the false apostle says…He turns people against their family and and teaches them to look down their noses at them. And he turns them against their home church. He causes division…he makes slaves out of them. He draws people to himself. They adore him. They shower him with all their love…why because they are bewitched by him…just like the Bible indicates, and like the Bible indicates he is greedy.
He bilks people out of all their money and he actually charges them to ride in the church van, but wait isn’t tithes suppose to go towards God’s purpose? Nope, not with him he teaches that tithes goes into his pocket… and he convinces people not to even question what he does with his tithes. Also, he won’t give you a receipt for your charitable gifts either, why, because he is cunning, he’ll skate around the issues and convince them that he is so anointed and nobody understands the Bible like him…Ponder this, what about being honest and reporting your earning to the IRS? How about helping your congregation get a blessing by being honest and claiming their charible contributions, so they can money back at the end of the year!
Not this false apostle and when the Bible talks about how they like to have the finest table at the banquet, so true. Every year this false apostle bilks his congregation out of thousands of dollars, by convincing them he is worthy of so much honor, they have their yes men, ask for a gift of $500 to $1,000 dollars each, plus they sell them a ticket to go to their anniversary…yep, just like the Bibles indicates they are greedy and the congregation puts up with it – you can’t have a difference of opinion in that church or they’ll kick you out!
Don’t be impressed with people fainting…and false prophets…test the spirits like the Bible tells you to do.
Ponder this, when the Holy Spirit decended upon Jesus did he fall backwards? Nope, matter of fact the Bible indicates: Luke 18:1
And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;…
2 Corinthians 4:1
Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2 Corinthians 4:16
For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
Galatians 6:9
And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
Ephesians 3:13
Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory. Revelation 2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name’s sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
I know very few mature men who are 27. Judah is not one of the exceptions.
“I’d rather the kids find out the truth now at 13, 14, and 15 and not 18, 19, and 22 or worse. 42. Some people would honestly prefer for these people to go on brainwashed with their heads in the sand. Not cool.”
I completely agree with Jennifer. However, I wonder sometimes if this blog is helping these 13, 14, and 15 year olds find truth. No doubt that there is Truth but part of that Truth is obedience to the word of God, which includes the concept of humility and compassion. I just feel this blog flirts dangerously with slander rather than righteous anger or even a humble concern for these kids.
In my opinion (if I may throw it out there) is that everyone is ‘brainwashed’ by something. Look around in our culture, the media is probably the most evident brainwashing tool, but there’s our education system, or even our governmental system, your friends, family, etc…I just feel that the whole brainwashing excuse isn’t even a valid one anymore because its safe to say taht some people could even be brainwashed by this blog. (that is to say that if we all agree on the definition of brainwashing to be forcible indoctrination, usually political or religious, aimed at destroying a person’s basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with an alternative set of beliefs.)
I just really wish that the body of Christ could come together and help each other through it’s problems rather than pointing fingers and speaking maliciously against one another. It’s true that we need to eliminate hypocrisy in the church, but I think (if I’m reading the Bible correctly) that it needs to be done through honest, pure love (refer to Matthew, I think chapter 6? I don’t have a Bible near me right now) Can we, maybe for a second, try not to pretend that we are perfect enough to point fingers at the imperfect?
Am I the only one whose heart is broken by this??
“Am I the only one whose heart is broken by this??”
My heart is broken by Pastors who engage in petty politics and involve themselves into the business of other churches, then, when they don’t have their way, those pastors retaliate by denying food to the poor and starving.
And Wendell Smith did just that.
My heart is broken for all the widows and orphans, or anybody who gets bliked out of their money for a false Jesus, especially those who can barely make ends meet. Blood had to be shed to redeem us from our sins and Jesus was the perfect blood sacrifice. Jesus paid the price in full for us. In my opinion to teach tithing is to teach a different Jesus. We can give freely…thanks to sweet wonderful Jesus! Hebrews in the New Testament talks about how the old law is no more…there is no need for blood sacrifices… (no where in the Bible will you read that tithes were from a weekly pay check) They had money back then. I read it in Genesis. Jesus gave us a new testament (promise). My heart goes out to the families who know the truth about tithing who try and help their families understand they don’t have to and the false preachers of the law has them convinced that their family memebers are devils! The false apostle I encountered taught that if you don’t tithe you’re practicing witchcraft! Your loved ones look at you like you’re evil, not understand that they’ve accepted false doctrine and are in bondage to a man who preahes a false Jesus.
You can love without agreeing with false doctrine. We can state our own opinions. We are suppose to search things out in the Bible to see if what those preachers are telling us is true. If they’re wrong, we’re suppose to warn others, not stick our head in the stand. And because we disagree doesn’t mean we’re arguing and fighting. We must warn the others:
1 Timothy 1
1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,
2To Timothy my true son in the faith:
Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
Warning Against False Teachers of the Law
3As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer 4nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God’s work—which is by faith. 5The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk. 7They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.
karen I couldn’t agree with you more. But I still feel like saying things like this:
“Whenever the City Business Church has blogged about Jonah Judah, a few of his blind devoted followers whine about it rise up in defense of him despite his immature antics as an anointed man of God. And so, to cheeze off Judah’s groupies I listened to an entire message oh the nausea of it, to experience the hot air anointedness for myself.”
:is unneccessary…not only is it insulting judah, but it insults anyone who would be considered, according to this blog, a “blind devoted” follower. I happen to know more than a few people who have come from the city church seattle who are annointed, who do help the poor, who live for anyone but themselves and who have been a huge blessing in my walk with Christ. Without these people, I’m not sure I would even still be a believer and while I understand your point of view, I still can’t bring myself to agree to making fun of a Church (no matter how much I disagree with their doctrine of tithing) in an effort to
“3… command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer 4nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God’s work—which is by faith. 5The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.”
I just don’t see the connection…perhaps you could all help me.
Anon, dear … it’s a parody blog – read the masthead (at the very very top) …
Also note that the paragraph you quoted – all the offensive words were lined out. Uh, that’s parody – giving the reader a glimpse into what I wanted to say, but resisted and typed something more charitable instead.
The truth is, several of the people writing on this blog, are elders in Christ – several of us are 50+ years old, myself included, each old enough to be Judah’s father. Many of us have been in the Lord since before Judah was even born. We’ve come through the allure of conforming to the world, the notions of having a ‘ministry’ and the power trip that brings, to brokenness and wanting nothing more, or less, than Jesus. It is because we have been there and done that and come through it, that it is so painful to watch Judah struggle with the same things now and watch as his zeal consumes him and his followers and thrusts many MANY into error.
To be honest, there’s a bit of self-reflection in what I write about Judah – roll back the clock 30 years, and I’m looking in the mirror – well – except for the Nordy clothes and goofy hair and fake accent and … but I was chomping at the bit to ‘go pro’ with my music ministry – doing concerts, dressing up, strutting a stage and quoting from the bible in my raised hand … but there are also things I never did, that Judah does routinely, that I knew in my Spirit then, and know now that are flat out wrong and NOT of God – the guilt/shame/ridicule, sexual innuendo, money grubbing stuff …
The few serious pieces I’ve written on Judah do go easy on him – as one who has been there and done that – and if it were ever given to me to be his friend or mentor, I would not hesitate to tell him to his face what I think of what he’s doing – what I discern in the Spirit – and frankly, spank him – he needs it. With love of course.
Anon – every one of us here have come out of that stuff, or are waking up to it and coming out of it – the religious circus – the silly crap we do in corporate assemblies – follow the leader – pretending to be all religious – so we recognize it – and when we tease about it, parody it, mock it, I hope you understand that the old saying is true – where there is one finger pointed at Judah, there are 3 pointing back at me. It’s only because we’ve been there and have woke up to it that we see it now …
There will come a day I assure you, when Judah will grow up, mature, put off the old man, and laugh about himself and what he did – and though he may never admit it to his proselytes, he will grieve for those he brought to Christ by falsehood and manipulation, antics and theatrics – he will weep that he didn’t simply show them a more humble and loving Judah, and that he didn’t keep the focus Christ and Him crucified …
Sam
“Anon – every one of us here have come out of that stuff, or are waking up to it and coming out of it – the religious circus – the silly crap we do in corporate assemblies…”
Thank you Anon. I think the new people here need to read the other posts on this blog. I read for MONTHS before I said a word and I am sure others have as well. It would be one thing if it was just CBC, Frank, Doug, Judah and that group but if you look on other posts just on this site and then search on the internet it’s not just stories with this group of people. There are stories of many people from different churches/the last revival that have horror stories to tell.
And yes these types of things have been going on in the church for decades but it seems that in the past 10 to 15 years the devil has been working overtime. The prosperity, WOF, signs and wonders movements/doctrines made things 10 times worse.
Well, I don’t like to speak on things I don’t know and I don’t know anything about Jonah Judah. I’m not a groupy of his. I just feel this is a safe place to state my opinions.
Here’s something that annoys me…someone calling theirself annointed or worse yet, referring to someone else as annointed. Why does it annoy me? If you look in the dictionary annointed isn’t even there. “Annoint” is and it means to rub oil or ointment on 2. to put oil on in a ceremony of consecration. Annointing of the sick is a sacrament in which a priest anoints with oil and prayers for a person dying, in danger of death, or otherwise critically ill, infirm, or distrubed. I did a Bible search and found that Jesus is the annoited one. Singular not plural. In my opinion, people use this word out of context it to exalt themselves or someone else. Making up a new word with a new meaning…as if it really means something spectacular or should I say spiritual..making them sound more spiritual than what they really are a new term to exalt oneself… I remember reading in the Bible that Jesus is the annointed one. This is singular not plural. If my memory serves me correctly there was someone else in the Old Testament who was considered annointed I think he was the person who didn’t die. He went straight to Heaven and escaped death. I used to wonder about people calling themselves annointed. I hear it the most among properity preachers-false teachers of the law. Try actually finding the word in the Bible – go online and do a Bible search…Let me know if you find it. Let me know how it is used.
Hi Karen,
Anoint/ed/ing is several places in the NT … typically means to apply some substance to a person – oil, spices, ointment, clay and spittle, spikenard:?, the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:38), etc.
Scripture also says that we ALL are anointed, by God, through the Holy Spirit – whether we are anointed with the ‘oil of gladness’ (Hebrews 1:9), or God who has anointed us with Christ (1 John 2:27).
Anointing also seems to be used in the context of commissioning , as in the following:
Luke 4:18-19 KJV The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, (19) To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
So when someone borrows that O/T verse: ‘touch not mine anointed’ (1 Chronicles 16:22 and Psalms 105:15), is that scripture used in context of anointing with the Holy Spirit with which every believer is anointed, or in the context of commission, which would seem to limit the instruction to just those who are appointed by God to a specific mission?
Is there a difference between the Greek “anointed” meaning to pour oil upon or pour the Holy Spirit upon, and the Hebrew “mine anointed” which seems to imply God’s designee for service?
The Hebrew in 1 Ch. 16:22 and Ps. 105:15 is:
H4899
מש××™×—
mâshîyach
maw-shee’-akh
From H4886; anointed; usually a consecrated person (as a king, priest, or saint); specifically the Messiah: – anointed, Messiah.
(Notice the catholic flavor of the definition above, tying “anointed” to “priests and saints”)
I’m more interested however in the word “anointed” being used specifically for the Messiah, IN whom all believers have life, and who resides IN us. IF we are IN the anointed one and the anointed one is IN us, are we not also anointed? If we have the Holy Spirit, which God has poured out upon ALL FLESH (Acts 2:17), aren’t we all anointed by God?
There’s 6 Greek words in the N/T translated anoint/ed/ing – 4 of them mean the application of oil, etc., and 2 of them mean commissioning for a service.
The word ‘anointing’ in Luke 4:18, Acts 4:27, Ats 10:38, 1 Corinthians 1:21, Hebrews 1:9, is:
G5548
χÏιÌω
chriō
khree’-o
Probably akin to G5530 through the idea of contact; to smear or rub with oil, that is, (by implication) to consecrate to an office or religious service: – anoint.
The ‘anointing’ spoken of in 1 John 2:27 is:
G5545
χÏιÌσμα
chrisma
khris’-mah
From G5548; an unguent or smearing, that is, (figuratively) the special endowment (“chrismâ€) of the Holy Spirit: – anointing, unction.
The former ‘anointing’ for consecration to office or religious service, is used 3 times to describe the anointing of Jesus (Luke 4:18, Acts 4:27, Acts 10:38), 1 time to describe the anointing of the apostles (2 Corinthians 2:1), and once to describe the anointing of the Hebrews with the ‘oil of gladness’ (Hebrews 1:9).
Where ‘anointing’ meaning commission is used ONLY for Jesus and the apostles, is it right for modern day ministers/pastors, etc., to take the term ‘anointing’ for themselves, as if to set them apart from other believers who are also in Christ, and therefore anointed? Where we are gathered and joined together IN Christ, do we not also share the same commissioning anointing as Christ? Are we not all vessels of Christ as witnesses in the world?
The definition of the one word ‘anointing’ specified ‘kings and priests’ – according to scripture, we are ALL kings (Revelation 1:6) and priests (1 Peter 2:5, Revelation 5:10).
So the leaders appointed by men who cry “touch not mine anointed” – are they really any different than anyone else who is in Christ Jesus?
Judah is self-annointed and self-appointed…
wait…
Father-annointed and Father appointed….
Wow. They really ARE copying!
Sam,
Wow, thanks “Jesus” for that illumination on judgment to come.
May I ask a deep, theological question…..perhaps, are you just a little jealous you never amounted to Judah’s level?!?!
Obviously, your answer will be no, but the epilogue you wrote speaks volumes of the truth. just saying old man, just saying.
be careful….you have a judgment coming too…maybe you should just focus on prophesying that one.
yes, because people getting healed is an atrocity!!!!!!!!!!!!
Seriously, once again my winner for DRAMA QUEEN.
“May I ask a deep, theological question…..perhaps, are you just a little jealous you never amounted to Judah’s level?!?!”
LOL! Considering the fact that Judah had everything handed to him no. And what are you talking about exactly? That comment screams ego and vanity. Rae you’re just begging to get ragged on but it won’t be by me I’m staying out of this one lol. No wonder you love Judah so much.
[Comment ID #25564 Will Be Quoted Here]
Yo, RAE!
KMA, OK?
I told you you dont know what happened and you never responded to that and I am not the only one speaking out, there are thousands of people speaking out. I willleave you to the other posters claws. Show me how those signs/wonders are scriptual? Scripture is found in the bible, go read it.
She hasn’t backed up anything she said with scripture Heathen. DOn’t waste your time.
Sam is as jealous of Judah Smith as he is of Paris Hilton………..herpes and all LOL!
Drama Queen,
Ohhhhhhh……….so Wendell forced Judah to get up one time and preach and he forced him to be good. So what if his dad’s the pastor??? in order to sound as silly and cheesy as you…..aren’t we suppose to go about our father’s business????? sounds like the way you like to quote scripture so i’m trying to make it easy for you.
“like the way you like to quote scripture so i’m trying to make it easy for you.”
That’s what we are suppose to do to prove a point as Christians, use the scripture RayRay, but hey that’s just me lol. You havne’t posted ONE scripture yet. The only cheesehead here is you. You know what this blog is about and you’re still here posting.
DQ,
You’re right….you should just let the others respond…..its a little over your head.
[Comment ID #25573 Will Be Quoted Here]
Attention RAE:
Ted Haggard called, he wants you back, or was that, your backside?
Over my head, like the bible is over your head but it doesn’t seem like you’re too bright as it is. You do realized you posted all this stuff and your IP address has been logged right!!!?!! You really are a genius. Thank God the owners of this site are alot nicer than I am……………..most of the time LOL! This should be fun.
Wow, RH. I must’ve of really ruffled your feathers cuz that’s all ya got?!?!
You guys make Judah, Frank, Wendell, and the rest look pretty good….
keep on keeping on…..cuz i think you’re only making people like you less and them more……
“Attention RAE:
Ted Haggard called, he wants you back, or was that, your backside?”
Wow that’s a bit much even for me LOL!
Wow that was weird. All these CBC lovers are so scary and dumb. The only one I like so far is David Mackin at least he uses scripture and tries to make sense. I
[Comment ID #25577 Will Be Quoted Here]
Yeah, well… I am not in the mood for lemmings who follow FALSE PROPHETS like Wendell Smith, Judah Smith or any of the other charletans who preach salvation of soul in return for money in their bank account.
A lemming is bad. A lemming with no scripture to back him/herself up is beyond hope lol.
[Comment ID #25580 Will Be Quoted Here]
I just wonder if all those lemmings who follow Judah, Wendell, Frank and the rest of those 21st century “Elmer Gantry” types realize that they are empowering SATAN by blindly following the FALSE PROPHETS that they so slavishly ADORE and IDOLIZE?
Worship GOD and NOT MAN and everything works out… but these people are worshipping MEN.
Rae’s question doesn’t trouble me at all. Yes, I have a judgment coming.
What I said about rolling the clock back 30 years? I was a performing songwriter in the western Washington area, from about ’71 to ’84. My so-called ‘music ministry’ started with God’s Creation Company, a ministry of Calvary Lutheran Church of Federal way, later singing solo and with my brother, under several names, including The Singers David, Helser Bros., and my own name. We opened for some professional CCM acts, but preferred the outlaying areas of W. WA – in fact felt called to it in that Seattle/Tacoma had CCM artists coming through often doing concerts – while the smaller, more rural communities were often over looked because of population / draw / ability to pay.
We never charged, the free will offerings we took were given to the area food bank, often we held food drive concerts where the ‘price of admission’ was a food donation, which we left with the host church for taking to their local food bank or to administer themselves.
We sang for audiences as small as 8-12 in Ashford, to several thousand opening for pro groups and in the church at McCord AFB/Ft. Lewis. we made many 5AM trips by boat to McNeil Island Federal Penitentiary and sang for the prisoners who more often than not rocked our socks off with their men’s choir.
So I’m saying we enjoyed about 15+ years of local/regional ministry, with radio play, summer tours of the 5 NW states, being flown into Barrow, AK for the ‘North Slope Youth Rally’, etc. Those were good and wonderful times.
We shared our testimony, original songs, gave youth talks about music, peer pressure, always preaching “take up your cross and follow”. No phony accents, no gimmicks, wearing JCPenney slacks and sport shirts, worked a day job to pay for our equipment (about $10,000 in guitars, amps, mics and PA systems, not to mention the truck I bought to haul the gear). Paid for our own gas, bought our own meals, paid for the hotels when away from home. We broke bread with members of the congregation and pastor(s) often.
In the end, I told a dear friend that for the last 6 months of our ‘music ministry’, I didn’t feel specifically called to it anymore – and I knew that IF I was to continue, it would be on my own and of my flesh. So I laid it down, and dedicated myself to my career and fatherhood as my children reached grade school.
Concerning judgment, I have no regrets, though realize some of my doctrine was typically IC back then – but I wasn’t in it for me – didn’t do it to be famous or to make money. We just loved the Lord and loved travel / singing. There was a time I wanted to go pro and be famous, but after a time and discovering our niche singing in the outlaying areas, we were quite content to sing in smaller communities / venues. Now that I’m 51, remarried and my kids grown and gone, I do an occasional concert – and it’s the same as it was before – no charge – original music – real testimony – no theatrics … and no regrets.
Judah would be truly blessed to have known the kind of ministry the Father gave me for all those years. And really Rae, concerning how a situation like Judah has found himself in can entangle a man and make him something that he is not by simple peer pressure and the expectation of his following. By being something he is not, he has made himself a slave to falsehood – and that can be hell on earth. If anything, I’d suspect Judah would be jealous of me – because I am free and he isn’t.
Peace.
Sam
Sam,
I appreciate your heartfelt and sincere comments. I don’t doubt that you had/have a great talent that was used by God to reach young people. I applaud you for doing what God told you to do. I also do not question Judah’s ability to do the same in a complex society. If i’m doing the math correctly….the beginning of your travel ministry would have been in the late 70′s. Culture was different, feelings of a church institution were very different, and young people were profoundly different then the young people of today.
Maybe, just maybe Judah has an ability to reach a core of young people you never would’ve/could’ve reached….and very possibly, vice versa. I’m not so much worried about a package someone comes in…i’m in it to see people “free.” just as you say you are. and though you may want to disagree….Judah has had great fruit in seeing many young people, free.
I’ve read these posts off and on and see a lot of frustrated people hawkishly attacking Judah’s colloquialisms, alleged income/housing costs, his hair, and style of dress. I must miss this biblical doctrine….Is poverty spiritual??? Is that what i’m missing? or is it merely the love of money which causes us to sin? there’s a difference…a definitive line.
Sam, I thank you for responding. I look forward to continued dialogue.
Rae
“I’ve read these posts off and on and see a lot of frustrated people hawkishly attacking Judah’s colloquialisms, alleged income/housing costs, his hair, and style of dress.”
You forgot the part about Nepotism in his Father’s church, and how that same church is allowing people to go hungry in Grays Harbor because Pastor Wendell decided to not allow access to his gargantuan food bank, because he was upset about what happened to Doug Cotton.
Don’t forget that part.
Judah Smith allows children to GO HUNGRY while he accepts huge amounts of money for preaching what should be FREE.
Hi Rae,
If Judah were preaching for an audience of one: Jesus, do you think he would change anything? I can’t imagine that he wouldn’t want to hide beneath the lecturn and rework his entire message – his countenance change from one of brashness and self-exaltation to one of humility …
Would I have changed anything in my ‘platform’ ministry if performing for an audience of one? Yes. I remember saying some stupid things about the rapture – you know – Hal Lindsey was all the rage back then and we were due to be raptured any moment (leaving our cars un-manned (or un-womaned as the case may be))
Do we need the gimmicks, or is the Holy Spirit able to reveal Jesus without the charades?
Note that as a solo guitarist, I’ve seen audiences effectively spell-bound by a song – no jumping around, strutting or anything – just standing/sitting in one place finger-picking a guitar and singing … I’ve been in audiences and have experienced it myself …
What purpose do the theatrics serve? Is there any indication Paul (the babbler) did that with the crowds he won to Christ? Or Peter on pentecost? Was it the performance of the apostles that won the crowds, or the Holy Spirit moving in the hearts of men as the apostles simply testified of Jesus?
Hey Rae – did you ever see the 1972 documentary on Marjoe? I posted info / links in another thread – but it’s amazing what he reveals about the evangelism / preaching business … really sobering if you’ve never watched the videos or read Marjoe’s interviews …
Sam
Sammariatian,
I really enjoyed what you wrote about annointed, well said. Now that you brought it up I do remember reading how all believers are anointed…but what I hear a lot from people who idolize their pastors is, “He is sooo anointed.” As if they feel he is more annointed than the average Christian and it seems like they idolize them…Also, I often hear people quick to defend their pastors, like say you don’t agree with them; they actually think your talking about them if you merely state your opinion, they’ll say something like, “Don’t touch God’s annointed!” As if you’re not. It is nice to know I am annointed too…but I don’t go around acting like I’m really special because I am…I like the fact that just believing in Christ and being obediant to his word that makes me annointed. I know that my sanctification is fleeing fornication…running from it…I don’t have to prostitute myself to anybody…especially to a pimp daddy preacher…who wants to circumcise my wallet! hahahaha
A circumcision only takes the foreskin, not the entire penis.
“and how that same church is allowing people to go hungry in Grays Harbor because Pastor Wendell decided to not allow access to his gargantuan food bank, because he was upset about what happened to Doug Cotton.”
“Judah Smith allows children to GO HUNGRY while he accepts huge amounts of money for preaching what should be FREE.”
As much as I don’t like the Smith’s this is a HUGE accusation and Heathen I would like to see some proof or at least hear the full story.
Yes, circumcism was only a part of the foreskin, do you think 10%? It was part of the 613 laws that Jesus freed us from along with tithing…
This is how I see it. I believe that God is spirit and he desired to shake things up here on earth…because he got tired of people’s negative, selfish, stiffnecks attitudes…and people thinking they were so much better because they practiced the 613 laws. Perhaps he got tired of their sin offerings too…although he did like the pleasing aroma…I think he just wanted us to learn how to worship him in spirit and in truth. To offer our bodies as a living sacrifice…to free us from the law and to teach us how to love. To free us from the bondage of sin.
Because under the law:
Roman 2:25 Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised.
Romans 2:29 No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise is not from men, but from God.
We don’t have a written code to laboriously observe anymore, like tithing (animal sacrifices 10%), yearly, sometimes every three years; tithing wasn’t a weekly thing. He knew this wasn’t getting our hearts. He wants our hearts, not a percentage of our pay checks. He owns everything anyway. Giving a preacher 10% of your paycheck isn’t giving to God. He wants our body, our hearts…He blesses us with our paychecks to freely give; this is how he wants us to give to the church, freely.
Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
Philippians 3:3 For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh—
Those who force tithing on us are putting confidence in the flesh, and so are the faithful tithers.
Colossians 2:11 In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ,
Titus 1:10 For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group.
Who is the circumcison group? I believe it is the group that practices the laws. Scary thing is, they have FALLEN from GRACE.
What exactly is love? To me, what makes me love Christ so much is that he made me FREE… and not BONDAGE to sin or the law. This is what the Bible indicates about love…
Galatians 5
1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
7Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
8This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
9A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
10I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.
11And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
12I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
13For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
Heathen, was this not feeding of the poor intentional? I’m sure you will get to me when you can lovely.
Today, preachers don’t run the government, and back in the Leviticus priest hood they did. Once a year or every three year which every God commanded to them to tithe …the priest were to give a portion of the tithes to the poor and needy. Today, tithes go directly to a bank account, not to God, nor the people, but to the bank to buy real estate or fancy cars, etc. for the preachers.
Supermarkets donate outdated food to food banks, and to the church, they just need a dumping ground for it. I like churches who help people and don’t force a false meaning of tithes down your throat. Do you know of any?
I know of a Catholic church who helps people with shelter and food. They don’t ask for a false meaning of tithes, but I hear not all Catholic churches are ran like this. I know the Salvation Army is always helping the poor pay for their electric bills. I wonder if they force a false meaning of tithes down peoples throat. I would like to find a good church, because I don’t want to fall out of God grace by supporting a church who forces the law down people’s throat…and teach a different Jesus…
[Comment ID #25598 Will Be Quoted Here]
Please copy and paste this link into your browser window.
http://www.citybusinesschurch.org/blogblog/2006/11/26/the-lords-pantry/#comments
Jennifer
Yes read through that entire thing –it had us hopping mad -coming here daily to see the next saga and then after it was all done you have to read the
thread about the building or rather townhouse they turned around and purchased on Capital Hill in Washington, D.C. There is more to all of this than meets the eye and if the press can’t or won’t cover it we can.
As has been stated time and time again here –if you have nothing to hide than why isn’t your church accountable to the Financial Accountability organizations out there? If there is nothing to hide than you won’t mind it being broadcast here or is that a quote ‘Covering’ Doctrine?
The alternative to being a tax exempt organization is paying taxes like all other corporations.
Reforming Heathen do you have the link to city church buying the townhouse-
it will prove interesting.
http://www.citybusinesschurch.org/blogblog/2006/11/08/city-church-spends-14-million-on-row-house-in-dc/#comments
Hi Sammaritian,
I really enjoyed what you wrote and I went back and read Luke 4:18-19 and the scripture before and after. I decided not to take that title of being annointed. I take the holy spirit, that Jesus baptizes me with, but I don’t think I want to put myself on his majestic level. To me, saying I am annointed by God is to deny Jesus of who is really is and to put myself on His awesome throne…He deserves all the glory and honor… I still believe that Jesus is the annointed ONE. Luke 4:14 is talking about the spirit of the Lord is upon Jesus who is the annointed one and at that time it was He who fulfilled scripture on that day.
Luke 4:14And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.
15And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
I looked up Acts 2, this is specically talking about Jesus and the Holy spirit.
16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
This is where most preacher like to make you think it is talking about them…
I went back and read 1 Chronicles 16:22 , wow! That was beautiful! This was a song that David wrote. It was referring to Jesus and the true prophets! I don’t believe it applies to men who claim to be sooo anointed by God. The way it is written there is too much awe and reverence to the Lord, not to modern man.
I read this one too Act4: 34Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right. 36You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37You know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.
Again, this is talking about Jesus who is the annointed one. I looked up Hebrews 1 another scripture you quoted, and this isn’t talking about us being annointed. It is talking about Jesus superiority over the angels.
Hebrews 1:6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”[d] 7In speaking of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels winds,
his servants flames of fire.”[e] 8But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[f] 10He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
I read the other one you quoted, which is 1 John a Warning Against Antichrists
18Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.[d] 21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
24See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.
26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.
It appears that this scripture is talking about the real apostles, whom Jesus had taught. Them that walked with Jesus, who received his annointing of the truth…Eye witnesses of Christ…this annointing wasn’t counterfeit. Ah, so there is a real annointing and a counterfeit, very, very interesting. This seems to be talking about the last days that Jesus was here on earth when he dwelt among us. It doesn’t appear to be talking about this day…
I looked up Hebrews 1, wow! It talks about “in the PAST God spoke” to our forefathers through prophets…this leads me to believe there is no need for modern day prophets…also in Revelations it talks about how we are not to add to or take away from the Bible. This leads me to believe there is no need for prophets today…we are warned to watch out for them…
Hebrews 1
The Son Superior to Angels
1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
I read Revelations (Revelation of Jesus while he was here on earth) the chapter you quoted. It doesn’t mention anything about us being annointed.
4John,
To the seven churches in the province of Asia:
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits[a] before his throne, 5and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
7Look, he is coming with the clouds,
and every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him;
and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.
I enjoy doing Bible study with you thanks for the scriptures and the thought provoking questions! I’ve learned more today than years at church!
Hi Karen – I think it’s OK for believers who have the Holy Spirit to say they are anointed.
In simplest terms, to annoint simply means to pour or rub a substance upon someone. There’s the one who does the anointing (God), the one who receives the anointing (you), and the agent God anoints you with (Holy Spirit).
What has really been catching my eye lately in scripture, is as you have done, to take note of who is being addressed in the scripture. For example, 1 Corinthians 14, which is oft quoted for giving in support of ministers and churches, is really written by the apostle Paul about apostles – both himself and other apostles. So when in 1 Cor. 9:14 Paul talks about the right to pay, in context of the chapter, He’s talking about apostles. How is it that today we have extended the rights of the apostles who traveled, stayed with locals, had nothing but the clothes on their backs, always visiting places that have NEVER heard the gospel before, endured great persecution, hardship, etc., HOW and WHY do we apply the rights of the apostles to mere local preachers? And when Paul wrote that passage, did he envision every local church having to support a full-time paid professional religious person AND building AND staff for every conregation, no matter how small? In pure business terms, that is a HUGE increase in overhead, to go from supporting just the Apostles who “go out”, to supporting local preachers.
In keeping with the apostles-only thought, in the so-called Great Commission in Matthew 28 – Jesus is speaking to the 11 apostles. Are us mere believers under the great commission also, or was that just for the apostles?
We Christians are like little Lemmings seeking the truth. Trying to get to the other side. We have free will. We’re working out our own salvation with fear and trembling, carefully trying to understand the gospel.
I believe that Jesus is the only one who can baptize us with the Holy Spirit, because He is the annointed one. He is the one who pours out the Holy Spirit upon all believers. Depending on our perceived reality of the truth, some believe the Holy Spirit is another word for being annointed. Why, because God the Father is Spirit (He dwells in unapproachable light-no man can come to Him, but by Jesus). How did Jesus get here? From God’s Spirit (a tangible substance). He is the Word of God made flesh by the pouring out of God’s Holy Spirit. God poured out his spirit into the virgin Mary, so that He could dwell among us and teach us through His son… the true gospel that amazed the very scholarly priest in the temple…the gospel that will save us from our sin-a gospel that cleanses us from our sin-for it is He (Father, Son, Holy) who keeps us from falling, from wallowing in our sin. He reveals the the truth about sin to us in order to help us, to free us from the evil one, the negative one who makes sin to appear so appealing…His Holy Spirit pricks our hearts into doing good…He speaks to us in dreams and visions…today-people are still speaking in tongues…these are gifts from the Holy Spirit…
We must receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit to receive His annointing. The amazing Holy Spirit who speaks to us in a still small voice leading and guiding us. Who gives us the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Galatians 5:13You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature[a]; rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[b] 15If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
Life by the Spirit
16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
I need more help on understanding prophecy, because I understand it is a spiritual gift, but I also understand that scripture has been fullfilled and we’re not to add to it. Why is it that people are saying that God is saying things? Perhaps to fullfill scriptures with that fact that there will be many false prophets. I need more help in this area. Please give me some thought provoking questions…
I am just a little Lemming seeking the truth; wanting to get to the other side.
Karen, if you read in Ephesians about the spiritual gifts in chapter 4 it says:
“11 and He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists and some pastors and teachers”
so we see that prophecy is indeed a spiritual gift, but then Paul writes on to explain why we have these spiritual gifts, and he writes:
“12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ”
My experience with prophets is that they don’t necessarily speak prophetically about end times, or what’s going to happen if people do not heed the voice of God, as they often did in the old testament. My experience has been that they listen to the Holy Spirit and speak words mostly about specifec people, or sometimes Churches, that God wants to speak truth into. So for instance, I once heard a story about a prophet who, during prayer, was prompted by the Holy Spirit to approach this couple who had attended her service and tell them that they were going to have zebras. She obviously had no idea what that meant and was probably a little afraid to say anything to this couple, for fear that they might laugh at her or be offended, but putting all her faith in the Holy Spirit she went ahead and told them her prophetic word. When she said that to them they broke down crying saying that they had been trying to have children and couldn’t and that they prayed to God that they would have little “zebras” (because the woman was lighter skinned and the husband darker), but they had not been able to concieve. So this prophet used her gift of prophecy to edify two members of the body of Christ in love.
This is obviously one of many testimonies I have seen or heard, but hopefully you see the point in my telling this story is that prophecy doesn’t necessarily have to predict the end times or what the wrath of God will bring if we don’t change, or add to the Bible in any way. I think the scripture could mean many things by “false prophets” and I’m still trying to figure that out for myself as well, but I certainly do believe in modern day prophets who hear from God specifec words that can edify the Church.
I hope this helps, and anyone feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. I like learning too.
For me, one of the key scriptures concerning prophecy is Revelation 19:10, which says:
Revelation 19:10 KJV And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Elsewhere scripture says:
John 14:6 KJV Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
And:
John 18:37 KJV Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
So:
The essence of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus, who IS the truth and came into the world to bear witness to the truth … so, I think it’s OK to say that prophecy is quite simply Jesus truth.
It has been made out to be a LOT of different things in the modern / charismatic church – just read some of the conflicting (so-called) prophecies issued by ‘prophetic e-lists’ such as the Elijah list, et al, and the conflict between so-called “words” goes to show that God could not possibly be the author/source of all that confusion and double-talk.
When the church ‘house prophet’ starts talking about having the mantle of prophet, wears a 3 piece suit and everything is a ‘thus saith the Lord’ as if He is the one who hears God for everyone else, it’s time to run. For scripture plainly says all those who are of the truth and in Christ hear His voice.
I used to belong to several of the prophetic e-lists, and many years ago released a few words of edification through them, but I began to be sickened by them, in that back to back words predicted revival and destruction – times of testing/hardship and unprecedented blessing poured out … for example, Pat Robertson annually announces some crazy stuff that God has planned for coming year (God’s always looking for a way to pimp-slap America, you know), and then when the calamity doesn’t come to pass, He claims it was God’s mercy or believer’s prayers that averted it all … like turning that hurricane a decade ago away from Myrtle Beach (?) only to slam into the coast north of them … what kaka that is … He’s simply someone who is trying to be more important in the family of God than other spirit-filled believers are …
Frankly, and this’ll get me in trouble I’m sure, I think a lot of the prophetic manipulation out there is the result of control-hungry people, who are weak in and of themselves, and lay hold of the name of God to scare people into compliance with their own visions by an emphatic “thus saith the Lord” …
Best advice seems to be simply listen for His voice and follow Him where He leads. If you’re not hearing, they don’t presume a direction, but wait for His reply – fast once in awhile – pray often. He’ll answer and lead. Develop that spiritual ear and get the word He has for you directly from Him …
What few real prophetic people I have encountered, never tell me anything new or that I’m not already hearing in the Spirit – what they give me is confirmation of what I’m hearing … if someone tells you something for you that’s from out of left field, file that under “needs confirmation” or “fertilizer for the garden” … you know?
Sam
This is how I see it, 1 Cor. 14:3, 4, “But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort.
I know the sting of being called a halfbreed for the very first time as a child. I feel that referring to people as zebras, because they’re a mixed race is very demeaning, and that a zebra is derogatory hurtful term used by prejudice people-who have a problem accepting mixed people, implying that their children are less than human.
Perhaps the couple could have used that term as a private joke to themselves, but to have someone actually say something like that infront of a lot of people; to me that would be hurtful. I don’t see how it lines up with scripture, nor do I see it really strengthening, and encouraging and comforting. I can see how it would make them cry, but not for joy.
I could be wrong, but I feel like there are too many false prophets out there speaking from their hearts. She probably saw that couple come in, saw they were in love and the first thing that came across her mind was “zebra,” because it is a common term used today to demean people and she couldn’t shake that thought. Coincidently the couple had a private joke between themselves and they wanted to have a baby. Does this prove that this prophet was a true prophet? Could it had been a mere coincident? I don’t see how this prophesy could actually be Jesus truth… I don’t think Jesus would refer to their children as zebra, nor would he want them to view their babies as zebras. God is no respecter of person, he doesn’t care about race.
This reminds me of story I read in about Moses. Moses fell in love with a Ethiopian women. His siblings Miriam and Aaron didn’t like it one bit. Read the story and see how God feels about people who don’t like mixed couples.
Numbers 12
1And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.
2And they said, Hath the LORD indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us? And the LORD heard it.
3(Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.)
4And the LORD spake suddenly unto Moses, and unto Aaron, and unto Miriam, Come out ye three unto the tabernacle of the congregation. And they three came out.
5And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.
6And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
7My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
8With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
9And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them; and he departed.
10And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous.
11And Aaron said unto Moses, Alas, my lord, I beseech thee, lay not the sin upon us, wherein we have done foolishly, and wherein we have sinned.
12Let her not be as one dead, of whom the flesh is half consumed when he cometh out of his mother’s womb.
13And Moses cried unto the LORD, saying, Heal her now, O God, I beseech thee.
14And the LORD said unto Moses, If her father had but spit in her face, should she not be ashamed seven days? let her be shut out from the camp seven days, and after that let her be received in again.
15And Miriam was shut out from the camp seven days: and the people journeyed not till Miriam was brought in again.
16And afterward the people removed from Hazeroth, and pitched in the wilderness of Paran.
I guess that’s why, as Anon wrote that the person who received the word “was prompted by the Holy Spirit to approach this couple” privately. There would have been no public embarrassment …
Note that I’ve had to deliver a few crazy sounding words to people … one husband and wife pastor team I had just met was praying for money to put their kids in braces … the word God had for me was “concerning the children’s braces, tell them “it’s in the cookie jar” … well that sounded real crazy and I resisted telling them, but the Lord has a way of cranking up the volume of a word until you deliver it, so finally I told the woman – albeit reluctantly.
She thought on it for a moment, then started laughing joyfully – for just a few weeks before, before I met them, she had given a sermon where she referred to our prayer requests as “cookies in God’s cookie jar” … so she received the word as confirmation that God had heard and would act on their prayer.
I’ve been called on a few times to tell a woman (privately) that God was going to heal a diseased uterus, bladder control problems, etc. Each time, it was a concern they’d been praying about and the words was a confirmation to them, not an embarrassment.
Another woman who was afraid to step up to the microphone with a word she was given for the congregation, came to me after the funeral of a dear mutual friend, and said God had told her I had a word for her and I was to pray for her … he had been my first and only friend and brother after moving to Illinois – who died of the sudden onset of leukemia. I had fasted and prayed for his healing from the moment I learned he was sick – he recovered with chemo and then when his blood count was normal and gave every sign that the leukemia was eradicated, he died of a sudden and massive stroke … it shook my faith to the core – and the last thing I wanted to do was pray or give someone a word – still – the Lord urged me … I remember saying to the woman “are you sure you want me to pray for you – I prayed for Roger and he died” … she insisted I pray for her … so we joined hands together with my wife who was with me, and at once I saw the branch of a cherry tree blossom and produce clusters of cherries – as I spoke what I saw, she said that she had just moved into a new home in the Cherry Hills development and I was describing the sign at the entrance of the development. The Spirit then instructed me to speak to her about His purpose for her and how that home would be a place of rest, teaching and revelation for her … nothing earth shaking in that … but turns out her real concern as a person with prophetic giftings was the release to use the gift in the assembly (in worship service) … after waiting a moment, the Lord showed me an old fashioned saw mill powered by a water wheel – the brief vision zoomed in on the water wheel which I described in detail – while she wept – for she had once read the description of the prophet as a water wheel – receiving water (the word) from on high, and delivering it with power to the stream below where people could come and drink … so with that she received the Holy Spirit’s release to use the gift of prophecy in the assembly …
As for receiving words, the only time I was ever slain in the spirit, was during prayer from an intercessor who used a phrase from my private journal following my divorce 13 years ago … it shattered me – and I remember writing about the ‘broken pieces of me all over the floor – who would put them back together’ – and the word she spoke to me was as if she was reading my journal – I went down in a heap sobbing … the Father has since been faithful to put the pieces back together …
It almost seems like the best most edifying words will hit a person where they’re hurting – wounds are rarely ever pleasant to look at …
Sam
I’m sorry for any hurt or confusion: the term “zebras” was a private term used between the couple and this prophet whom I refer to did infact approach them privately after the service….
and I also want to add, that according to her story, she was extremely hesitant to tell them what she heard by the Holy Spirit, and therefore she waited until long after the service to tell them because she at first wasn’t going to say anything, and then felt very compelled by the Holy Spirit to say it. The couple was not offended, but rather overjoyed and according to the story, ended up concieving soon after that “prophecy”. They wrote to her nine months later to tell her that they were overjoyed to have new “Zebras” in their family; meaning they had they had twins, one lighter and one darker. This story in no way reflects my, or the prophet’s opinion, rather just merely facts that took place.
The point of my story wasn’t to stir up any problems, just to help answer a person’s question.
My deep philosophical, theological question concerns the question Rae presents Sam.
Rae,
Could it be that your camp has a grandious perception of itself and that is why you seem to continually miss the entire point of the blog? You have shown all along in your posts that you are unwilling to even consider that pastors’ families using tithe money to live in excess of the norm is wrong. Instead you suggestively hint that Sam (and the rest of us) may be jealous of Judah rising to a higher ‘level’? Just because we are passionate about how wrong it is to use tithe money for personal extravagence doesn’t mean we are jealous, it means we have a sense of injustice.
If the palatial lifestyle were obtained through honest means rather than abusing the church’s tax exempt status, perhaps jealousy wouldn’t be so far reaching. But why would we ever be jealous of a religious system that Jesus Himself denounces? It really ticked him off when the Pharisees made a show of being ultra spiritual in public yet kept obsorbing the peoples’ money into their posh existence. He regards them as the ones who “clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.”
Most of us agree that it’s not wrong for pastors and their families to live in nice homes and drive nice cars and even send their children to a good school. Pastors are worthy of their hire just as much as anyone. But pastors who live high above in excess seem to be missing the whole point of why they are pastors in the first place and it’s obvious to everyone but themselves. For those of us who are yearning for some truth and sincerity in Christianity today, this issue has become an extreme embarrassment and a real eye roller.
I am intersted to know the specifics on how TCC leaders/pastors have abused the peoples money…i.e. substantial evidence. I was having a conversation about it with someone, but found my description of this behavior to be extremely shallow in the sense that I had nothing to back it with…
could someone please share with me what they know about how CBC and TCC have used peoples money in contrast to the scriptures, and how they know it?
Anon,
First, we must decide what misusing money is. I would argue that telling people to give an unbiblical tithe to the Church is an unbiblical use of money. Then another example is not disclosing the salaries you are drawing from those tithes is another example of unbiblical use of those funds.
I attended the City Church and tithed for a few years, and when I had someone challenge me to ask the pastors what they make, so I asked. My friend bet they would never tell, and he was right. They refused to tell me (a tithe paying member of the church). That was my first red flag that there was something wrong. What did they have to hide?
You know they are drawing double salaries, since both husband and wife are on staff…not to mention children.
Then there are the cars they drive, the suits they wear, the homes they live in, the condos they own in Hawaii, the list goes on. They live the high-life that most lowly tithe-payers can only dream of. Best of all, they teach that questioning them is questioning God’s authority.
Is there blatant fraud? No, but I think they are living like kings off the backs of the poor. They tell you to give out of your need…promising God’s blessing if you give them money. Then they also preach a curse if you don’t tithe. They don’t know the real needs of the church because they don’t know the people. They isolate themselves with the rich members of the church.
It is also interesting how the most talked about topic by these preachers is money…coincidence? I don’t think so, these institutions are cash-cows and anti-biblical in their teaching.
I believe these two scriptures discuss these institutions:
On the latter scripture, think of how the prosperity preachers whip up enthusiasm for the gaining of wealth (covetousness), and then use it as a ploy to receive offerings. They tie giving to the church and material gain together and profit handsomely from it in their tithes and offerings. They sell their messages to other congregations (I don’t know of any instance where they preach for free), and they sell their books/tapes/cd’s. If anyone else has a better definition of making merchandise of the flock, please let me know.
Oh yeah….
I know you meant well by telling me the prophesy story about the “zebra children,” but that isn’t enough to convince me that prophesy is for today, not that I am totally against prophesy, but I do know that the Bible warns us against false prophets. I can’t ignore that fact. In the Bible false prophets were put to death. It was a very serious crime. Today, people seek after them like they do Sylvia Brown.
How do we know if the person giving the prophesy is seeing the lies of the devil? A different spirit. A lie like, mixed kids should be viewed as little jack ass zebras. Where is the the distinction between fortune telling, divination, witchcraft… To me, its like listening Sylvia Brown.
One time I brought some people to church with me. This so-called prophet announced in front of everybody that the lady who came with me was molested as a child and God was going to heal her blah, blah, blah…I never seen a person so mortified. She cried…I felt so badly for her. Actually, she wailed. To me this wasn’t edification. I feel that prophet saw a different spirit…lies of the devil, which were carried out by man. I don’t see how telling someone something like that would actually edify them.
Most prophesies I hear today are too general…they can mean anything… In times past, the Bible prophesies were specific and to the point. They came to past. I read you can tell a true prophet if what they say comes to past. I read that there will be many false prophets. I read that people will prophesy in his name and God will say, “I don’t know you.” This is why I take it seriosly.
When I read Ephesian 4:11 the Bible distinctly indicates that he gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists and some pastors and teachers.†The word GAVE is past tense. The foundation is already built, why do we need to keep building on a foundation that is already built?
Don’t you think that we can live by the Holy Spirit without adding to the Bible with prophesies-we’re not to add to what God says. If we live by the spirit we live like this
Galatians 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
Perhaps prophesy is misconstrued nowdays and to prohesy really means to know the scriptures and be able to quote scriptures at the right times when people are going through afflications, because the scriptures have been fullfilled. Isn’t scripture enough? I know God gives us the Holy Spirit to lead us and guide us and we can listen to that voice deep down inside; how do we draw the line between prophesy and divination and fortune telling?
Karen,
It sounds to me like you’re projecting a personal offense on a matter that seems offensive to you, rather than considering the example from an objective perspective. I can appreciate your sensitivity to personal issues, especially ones that could seem to imply racism and such, but the example made it clear that there was no harm, no foul. But on the other hand I will agree with you that something like this should always be done discretely and with sensitivity, for the obvious reasons that a) you could be wrong and b) you could be exposing a very personal place in that person’s life. Learning to respond to the Holy Spirit in these matters is more than just learning to yell at people “Thus saith the Lord-ah” – it’s about really connecting people to the power of God’s love towards them. Perhaps your example of the woman who may have been molested – yeah, that probably should have been done in private and not in a public meeting to spare her any additional embarrassment. The people involved showed a lack of tact there, but it didn’t necessarily invalidate the prophecy or the work that God may have been trying to do in her life. Done correctly in a spirit of love, prophecy can work wonders.
But you also raise a good question! How do we test the spirit of prophecy? I think everyone should raise an eyebrow any time someone attempts to bring a word of prophecy because it should be judged by the Holy Spirit in everyone. There’s the obvious: if it doesn’t line up with the Bible, if it denies Christ, then it’s flat out wrong. The next step is to judge whether it makes sense to you in what the Holy Spirit is telling you and working in your life. If it sounds completely off the wall, then it probably is. I don’t think we have to work too hard to critique prophesy. People with a skeptical mind (like yourself) and an open heart to the Holy Spirit aren’t likely to be duped by false prophecy. And I completely agree with you in that the fruit of prophecy should be things like the list of Galatians 5.
But I would encourage you to open your heart to the possibility that prophecy is still for today, it just needs to be handled in a manner that edifies the Body of Christ and glorifies God. There are many NT Scriptures that encourage prophecy!
Yeah man, it ain’t a word of the Lord with out a “Lord-AH” thrown in there …
I only ever heard a person do that once – the pastor of a huge AOG church in Rockford, IL who gave a mini-message during a Joyce Meyer seminar (double-yuck BTW) … I about ruptured myself trying to keep from laughing – I mean that guy’s AH’s were like a machine gun – peppering everything he said, like punctuation …
The Lord-AH at Sunday-AH morning Worship-AH service said-AH … :LOL:
I wholeheartedly agree with the first point here. The second one would also show some real transparency, but it is not unethical or even illegal to refrain from doing so. I’ve been looking at the 503c stuff for awhile now, but there is really nothing requiring churches to expose the incomes of individuals to its members. You can request a copy of the church’s tax return, but that’s as far as your legal rights go.
However, I was recently in a situation where the pastor’s income was a disproportionately large chunk of the church’s budget. When push came to shove, he “robbed Peter to pay Paul” and made sure he got his paycheck and other church programs, including a building fund, got short-changed. I left shortly after that, and was glad I had never “tithed” to contribute to his thievery. The fact that the board of deacons looked the other way made me more angry than I care to describe. If his own people wouldn’t hold him accountable, then I wasn’t going to stay, and they deserved whatever they got from him.
Karen,
I’m skeptical of modern prophecy as well, but that doesn’t mean that God isn’t still giving prophetic messages. While I was living in Jersey, my wife and I owned a two family house which we rented out to a young couple who had a youth ministry. It was a small apartment that was big enough for 1, so it was tight for a couple. After a few years a lady in the church where they served came up to them and said, “Are you pregnant? The Lord pressed it on my heart to offer you a two room apartment that we own will be open.” They in fact had just found out she was pregnant, but had not told anyone. Perhaps isn’t sending prophets the way he did throughout the OT, but he still reserves the right to send messages through his vessels.
[Comment ID #23111 Will Be Quoted Here]
how much of that 37k actually goes to the pastor? after the sallaries of everyone else have been paid, and all of the bills, etc…..?
I asked them and they wouldn’t tell…not a good sign. We are supposed to just shut up and give them money, don’t ask any questions…
Who started this website? I’m just curious. Has City Bible Church become “all about the money”? Does pastor Frank really talk about tithing all the time? How do you know? How many times did you (the creator/creators) attend CBC?
Thanks in advance for answering my questions.
The fact that he has coined the phrase ” I’m not here to fit in….. says it all.
Scott:
The creators of the website is no secret. It is said on many posts.
CBC has an unhealthy emphasis on money, image and other things besides the Lord Himself.
Pastor Frank does not talk about tithing “all the time.” However, he has written a whole year’s worth of blurbs that combine the giving of tithing as conditional to God’s blessings. These are read aloud by the whole congregation in unison before every offering. He has published these blurbs in a book for sale to other pastors with the promise that it will boost their $$ intake.
In addition, he devotes a month or more per year to preach on finances — tithing and “faith harvest.” And also, he continues the policy that no one may volunteer for the church in any capacity unless they are documented tithers.
I am not one of the website creators, but I know these things because I was a member for 25+ years. I now visit occasionally to see my friends, and sadly, things have not changed. I do know that the creators of this site were there with their family for several years as well.
Does this answer some of your questions?
Correction: The declarations that Frank wrote for the pre-offering pledge may not make God’s blessings conditional on tithing. However, they DO link Scripture and giving in such a way that it seems conditional. Each blurb begins with the words: “As I give in today’s offering…” So you can see how someone may infer that.
You would not believe the extent some church leaders go to in order to maintain the members’ 10% giving standard. In the church I went to today, the pastor wrote up a series of overhead statements to be read in unison by the entire congregation. They started out with the words, “As I give in today’s offering….” and then went on to say some benefit of our relationship with the Lord. It included expecting rebates and refunds and checks in the mail. He literally tied the blessings of a generous Father to whether one tithed or not.
If that were not enough, I know of a pastor who published them in a book and sells them at conferences around the world, promising other pastors that it will increase members’ giving. Now that’s pathetic!
Yes, you’re right it is very pathetic. I know the extent some pastors, false apostles, false teachers of the law will go to get ten percent of your income. Some people simply cannot afford to give 10% of their gross income. They’ll turn your family members against you too. This is what happen to me. My daughter and I had a great relationship before she started attending a false apostle’s church in Tacoma. When she was a young girl I would give her a couple hundred a month to baby sit her 2 younger brothers after school. My dad used to praise me for being such a good parent. One time she came home from school crying because kids teased her because of her crowded teeth. I bought her braces. Later, I co-signed for big loans for her. She used to tell me I was a pretty cool mom. I love my daughter so much! She was my heart! My joy, my beautiful precious little girl! She started going to a different church when she was about 19, she had a drastic change in personality. She’d come home from church real late, her eyes would be puffy from crying. I got concerned about her. I wanted to know what was going on. I started attending the church. Her pastor claimed to be an apostle. I always felt something was wrong with that. He had people literally convinced to work for him for free in his side business and his church, my daughter included. He would put pressure on my daughter to put pressure on me to tithe. She was convinced that she had to pay her false apostle first, it was so hard to get her to pay me for the money she borrowed. All she would talk about was the false apostle and first lady (his wife). She would get mad at me for not wanting to tithe and treat me like I was a dirty sinner…being a single mom with three kids tithing was a serious matter. But the church would lay such heavy guilt trips on you if you didn’t. I gave in and started tithing, thinking it was the right thing to do.
Later, I found out that the apostle gave my daughter a prophecy before I started attending…It was, “You had a lot of responsibility as a child!” Yes, she did. She was the oldest, duh, to me this statement behind my back was very general statement, but had a negative connotation towards me. I let it slide. While I was tithing to them, my daughter received another prophecy while I wasn’t there, again behind my back, during evening service from the false apostle’s wife, “You and your mother will be closer than ever.” When I found out about this prophesy I got very suspicious. I started researching cults and false apostles, and whether or not a person has to tithe to be saved, and how to test prophecies. I discover this church was a horrible abusive cult. I left the church. She would seldom call me, when she did it was typically because she was having financial problems. Once she wanted me to pay her rent. I told her, “Go ask your false apostle for the rent money. Isn’t tithes for God’s purpose? He can help you.†One day I finally got tired of her only calling me when she needed something, or spending time with me once or twice a year, because her church deliberately keeps her soooo busy. I got so upset and frustrated with her because I want the best for her, and that is to get on with her life and buy a house and start saving for retirement (she’s married with 4 children now). I told her to stop being so stupid letting that false apostle bilk her out of all her money. This was the last time I spoke to my daughter; she told me I met my mark (false apostle cult lingo). Now she won’t return my phone calls. It is heart wrenching hearing my daughter threaten to write me off every so often and to tell me she honors this false apostle and his wife more than her own mother. It is as if they have a spell on her. Another thing I didn’t agree with was he would have them write down their dreams and give them to him to judge. To me this is witchcraft. My heart aches for my daughter…I feel so betrayed…When I discovered my daughter was in a cult I cried like I had never cried in my life.
Yes, I can believe the extent these false teachers of the law will go. They have destroyed my relationship with my daughter-for what, for money. I feel like leaving her nothing in my will, because I don’t want her false apostle to have one dime of it. I’m sorry that churches can cause so much division and dissention between Christians. I write this to warn people about False apostles, this can easily happen to you… You could lose your loved one over an opinion about tithes and doctrine. This false apostle has my daughter and his planted members convinced that whatever he asks from them they’re suppose to give it to him. He’s cunning just like the Bible indicates. We warn our children about perverts and drugs, but who would of thought to warn them about false apostles!
Yikes, Karen. That’s awful! So sorry.
There’s no confronting the likes of that head-on, Karen.
Years ago, someone I love dearly got tangled up in a church in Kent with a sister-church in Lynnwood, where the pastor(s) of those 2 churches were preaching sinless perfectionism. The pastor of the Kent church claimed not to have sinned for several years. The person who got caught up in that argued vehemently on behalf of the belief, among others, and was impressed that words of prophecy came forth after the sermon, effectively parroting everything the pastor had just preached.
The pastor was also called to conduct Bible studies for an old gospel music group I belonged to (mid 70′s) in Federal Way, out of Calvary Lutheran Church, called “God’s Creation Company”, for whom I played guitar in the band. The pastor managed to get the kids so stirred up against Calvary Lutheran Church and the leadership there, that some would go to the Sunday morning service and interrupt the liturgies with yelling out what they held to be truth or the errors of the teachings / leaders there.
It’s been a long time, but if memory serves, it was discovered the pastor was caught in sexual sin and the church folded.
What delivered the person I loved, was not direct confrontation, but time and the Holy Spirit. Eventually there came a time that person had need, and the church to which he had given SO much was not there for him in kind. At that time of need, his family was there for him, when the church wasn’t, so that was all the wake up call he needed.
And now, a quote from Malachi (no, not that one, guys …)
Sam, I am.
Please, if you will, pray for me and my daughter. Pray that I won’t turn bitter, pray that if my daughter returns my calls that the Holy Spirit will guide me and help me to speak to her with more tactfully. Please pray that she will call me soon and that nothing will happen to either of us before we get a chance to talk. Please, it has been eight long years, I seldom get to see my grandchildren…I want to love them…I want them to love me… I want peace, I want to feel the goodness of God, this pain in my heart is hurts…Pray for a miracle, pray that she’ll be set free from doctrine of demons! This false apostle has her convinced that she is suppose to give him whatever she asks for…He is so manipulative she really thinks its ok to write down her dreams for him to interrupt them. Please FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, PRAY FOR A MIRACLE. That she’ll be set free!
[Comment ID #29007 Will Be Quoted Here]
We’re from Idaho where Frank comes to visit to raise $1,000,000 at other MFI churches when he should be coming to help the Idaho churches out. Frank seems to be all about money no matter where he goes!
de-tox church group said: We’re from Idaho where Frank comes to visit to raise $1,000,000 at other MFI churches when he should be coming to help the Idaho churches out. Frank seems to be all about money no matter where he goes!
de-tox church group…what did frank teach/preach/promote? was he asked to raise money or preach on the tithe or faith harvest offering to raise money for another pastor’s church? Or, did he take his own offering and sell his books and CDs at the door? I’d like some more details if you could share them…thanks.
We really don’t know too many details as it was all the scared and confused
sheep could elaborate on. They were confused which is nothing new in
this circle as to why he was coming. They thought they were going to a meeting to ‘bring them all together and bring healing from the ‘mother church’ that is still very un-happy they left there. Sound familiar.
We couldn’t believe he was here in a disciplinarian role –much needed we
thought– well finally! Turns out it was all for his aims –at least that is what
we can gather!
As far as selling books ect. we didn’t hear about that yet –will keep you posted. Once again very disappointing but after what we’ve heard on here
its par for the course.
[Comment ID #9512 Will Be Quoted Here]
seriously, we hae no right to criticize a servant of God. and don’t expect him to be the best preacher in the world. because of him, all of my youth was saved. so, think twice before criticizing anyone period. Only God has that right.
[Comment ID #29207 Will Be Quoted Here]
God will bless you deeply, just don’t give up on hope. he has you in his plan.
“come to me all who are weary and heavy laden-and i will give you rest.”
-Jesus
Moose, you have a serious man crush on Mr. Smith dog? This is the second place you have posted about what a great man he is…..
Anyway, I’m not sure which Bible you’ve been reading but the one I read says JESUS SAVES…but maybe these past 2000 years we’ve all been following the wrong Savior and now you’ve opened our eyes to the truth…is Judah is the Messiah?
I have spent the last couple hours on this site reading articles and comments, and have found it really interesting.
I became a christian at a Gen church meeting and, truthfully, always found Pastor Judah really friendly, funny and helpful. I loved his messages and really got into it. I now feel I understand how much Jesus loves me and how much He wants to be a part of my life.
However, I agree with a bunch of the opinions on this blog and now am not sure what I think. I mean if what you are saying is right, what can I take from what I learned from Judah? Should I leave the church? Where should I go? Do I even know anything about Jesus?
[Comment ID #37117 Will Be Quoted Here]
Wow Jennifer,
Looks like you posted your comment in November – so, I hope the Holy Spirit has let you know the answers to your questions by now. If not, and you came back here to read, I hope this can help a little. Really good questions, by the way, and I hope you never lose the ability to ask a straight-forward question because that is how we all learn, by asking freely.
My thought is you can take with you all you learned from Judah that is compatible with the scriptures. The other things that don’t echo the truth in the scriptures are just fluff and you can let those go. It may take you awhile to sort that out but if you ask of the Lord, and search the scriptures, he will answer you.
Becoming a Christian is the first step in your walk of faith and it’s great that Judah encouraged you in discovering the love Jesus has for you. That love will never change no matter what. As you are growing in your spiritual walk, no doubt you are learning that the best way to keep your faith alive is to read the scriptures yourself and check in with Jesus on a daily basis – not as a ritual to placate your conscience, but as you would a good friend or family member.
No matter what Judah says or doesn’t say, or what any of us on this blog say, isn’t as important as what the Bible says. It’s good to listen to other peoples’ opinion on what the Bible says and weigh it in your mind, but the bottom line is, be a student of the scripture yourself, and think and decide for yourself. What is the Lord saying to you through the scriptures?
Part of the growing up process is understanding that no person can do for us what Jesus alone can do. The opportunity to listen to flashy preachers like Judah will be with us for a very long time. Unfortunately people get addicted to the hype the Judahs bring, relying on the excitement and letting that measure their spirituality.
Without the hype, church can feel a bit mundane at times but it’s important to be a seeker of truth more than hype if you know what I mean. Doesn’t mean you have to attend a boring church but just find one that is an honest representation of Jesus and his way.
As for what type of church to find, I can’t pretend to know all to look for, but here are a few things that come to mind (maybe others will add to the list as they read this):
1. Is Jesus lifted up most of all or do you get a sense it’s more about the pastor?
2. Does the pastor have an entourage?
3. Is the pastors family on staff too?
4. Is money discussed alot with lots of offerings?
5. Does the church reach out to the poor and take care of their widows and orphans
6. When you are there, do you get a sense that the Lord loves the pastor and his family more, like they are highly favored of God or do you feel you are just as highly favored and special to God too?
7. When you ask questions, do you get the feeling you are not supposed to be asking them?
That’s all for now – i may come back and add something. . .
I actually left City Church in December. I tried going to some other ones, but honestly the preachers were boring and the worship sucked. I know Judah used to tell us that those things didn’t matter and that God mattered; but honestly they do matter. Another thing Judah was wrong about.
Funny thing is, now that I am out I totally see how crazy it is there. My old friends are so brainwashed. They still tell me all the time I should come back, that I NEED to get going to the church again. I pointed them to this website and they told me to ignore it.
I asked about Judah’s paycheck, and they all seem to think he deserves to be paid so much. Most of them have barely met the guy, and they think is so great. I actually expected most of them to come with me when Judah left youth; but they didn’t. I haven’t seen many of them lately, but I am pretty sure they still go…
You suggested taking the ‘good’ things from Judah away with me; but honestly I am not 100% sure what the good things were.
Anyway, it is funny. This article says “Based on the audiences obvious amusement, this author is convinced that Judah’s groupies do NOT know the difference between “anoint-ment” and “entertain-ment”.”
Truth is, I went there because he was entertaining, and I learned a lot. I haven’t thought about it lately, but if he preached like those guys at some of the other churches I went to I never would have went back; just like I haven’t been back to any other church since Christmas.
My 2¢ worth; a couple months of reflection later!
[Comment ID #37204 Will Be Quoted Here]
Jennifer,
Take some time and read the gospels. Make a list of what Jesus tells us to do and what He did. Start doing the same. You will then be able to see when people are doing what He said to do, and then you’ll know where to go to church and who to hang out with. The church isn’t a building. Church can happen where ever 2 or 3 are gathered….it doesn’t have to be 2 or 3 thousand. It could be at a soup kitchen, or volunteering at a hospital.
[Comment ID #37204 Will Be Quoted Here]
Hey Jennifer!
Glad you came back and really great to hear your 2 cents – would love to hear more anytime!
Guess I was being generous in saying to take the good things with you in case there were any good things. I had my doubts much could be salvaged, but I do hope you got out of there with your faith in Jesus himself intact. I know that in these types of churches, even the simple love of Jesus gets convaluted. It’s more about church and what you do there – how many prayer hours you log – than about your personal relationship with him (which is supposed to be PERSONAL not communal or corporate).
We feel the same way about the people at our ex-church – that they are brain washed and see everything through their grandiose perception of who their pastor is. It’s sad cuz the only ones who believe in the worshipfest are those who go there; but try to tell them anything and they just think you are bitter.
I don’t know how long you were at CityChurch, but if you feel like reading an article on leaving an unhealthy church and dealing with the loss, click here. Lots of good food for thought.
Bye for now!
Detox
WhatHeSaid Said:
So true.
DeTox said:
Boy, ain’t that the truth! I still run into my CBC friends occasionally. When I ask how things are going, it usually hear how they or their family members are connected to the grand pooh-bahs of the church. You know, their son is fetching coffee for Pastor Frank, or they are leading some such or other for this or that elder. It’s just weird.
Yep, false churches like that like to harp on the Bible verse “submitting to authority.” Hitler loved that Bible verse! I read where FEMA is actually paying preachers to teach it. Why do you suppose FEMA would pay preachers to teach that?
Maybe you all read a different post from Jennifer than I did; but are you seriously excited about this development in her life?!?
From what I read, she was invited to church by her friends; saved; went there for a while and was growing; then she found this group and, among other influences I am sure, decided to leave the church; now she is churchless and no longer hanging out with her friends.
And you attack her friends for caring about her and trying to invite her back?!? Even if you disagree with Judah as a person, how can you celebrate this young, impressionable girl leaving the church and attending nowhere. She doesn’t seem to be pressing into God, and is to young of a Christian to sustain herself. She is a baby who was still on milk and has been ripped from the church.
Shame on you all. I know this isn’t popular opinion here, and most of you won’t agree with me, but I hope that this makes you think.
Disagreements about church policy have been happening since the beginning of the church (Acts 6:1), and can be correct or incorrect.
Do you believe that Judah:
Believe Jesus is God?
Teaches Jesus is God?
Teaches Jesus is the only way to Heaven?
Cares if people go to heaven or to hell?
Genuinely has passion to see Seattle saved?
Do you believe City Church as a whole:
Believes Jesus is God?
Teaches Jesus is God?
Teaches Jesus is the only way to Heaven?
Cares if people go to heaven or to hell?
Genuinely has passion to see Seattle saved?
I pastor at a charismatic church, and I desired our city to be saved. I would consider my beliefs and values very close to what I know of Pastor Judah’s. (So you know where I am coming from)
The salvation of people is my biggest passion! I screw up, I make mistakes, but people coming to Christ is first and foremost. I celebrate when the Alliance church in our city grows, or the pentecostal church sees new kids coming.
This group celebrates when the church shrinks…
@Jennifer As a Pastor of another Bible believing, Jesus loving church to go back to GC. If that is where you have friends and are learning about God then go back. Don’t worship the Pastor, but go and feed on the word of God and worship God to the fullest. And let your friends, that care about you, back close to you.
This was not meant as an attack, but rather to exhort you to a higher place. Hopefully it will be well receieved…
Stephen, I appreciate your shepherd’s heart in seeing a lamb who is “foldless” so to speak. Every caring Christian wants to see the “babes in Christ” in a place where they are fed and cared for. We can join in prayer that Jennifer finds such a place, with confidence that the Lord who is her Shepherd will lead her as she listens to Him.
But that is somewhat beside the point of this whole discussion: questioning whether what is delivered from the pulpit is fit food for young Christians, and whether the leader-idolizing, ladder climbing nature of GC is a fit environment for them.
It is commendable that CC’s statement of faith is biblical. That is not in question. What is not commendable is that (in general) the teaching has a narrow focus and the children are not given a broad base of biblical knowledge, but are given instead a broad base of entertainment and feelings-based spiritual experience.
I also hope that Jennifer finds fellowship in a healthy church. But I also rejoice that she was open to feeling uncomfortable about what she was seeing and hearing, and that she was able to step out of the environment so that her listening to the Holy Spirit might not be distracted. May she continue to listen to Him and read, read, read His Word.
Jennifer may be led back into GC, or she may not. Either way, her spiritual growth can be enhanced by the experience as long as she sets her heart to follow Jesus and verifies what she hears with His Word.
Jennifer, if you are reading this: Sorry to talk about you so impersonally. but it’s a public forum and there is no other way. Grace to you.
Dear Stephen
We believe that you believe it!
signed
wanting the truth
Anna said:
One of the key factors here is healthy church. And in answer to your questions Stephen, no I don’t think MFI churches, and thus Judah’s church, healthy. They operate in partial truth by elevating the leadership way too highly which messes people up completely, placing the emphasis on people instead of on the Lord. It gets in the way of lifting Jesus up above all men. They may talk the talk about Jesus being first, and they do lift him up, but they also elevate the pastor, giving him far too much authority to the point he may even feel entitled to pronounce shame on people who don’t speak the party line.
We all agree that the Lord knows which environment is best for each person. Each Christian begins by the help of the Holy spirit and continues by his help. Could it be that it was indeed his loving assistance that guided Jennifer out the door by whatever means? He will lead her in the way. . .he is faithful. . .he is the One who began a good work and will complete it. Don’t we have confident trust in his ability to lead those he loves?
Stephen said:
Stephen, none of us see the whole picture. If you read between the lines you can see more than just reading a blog – why else do you think she said she agrees with some of what she read. Obviously she was already seeing something on her own before she even came here. I have to agree with Anna that Jennifer, no matter what her age in Christ may be, is discerning enough to ask questions and make decisions on her own. She’s not a little kid, she’s a thinking young adult. It’s important to learn to engage in critical thinking early on, rather than let your pastor do your thinking for you, follow him/her blindly for years, and then find out later that it wasn’t what God intended.
[Comment ID #37212 Will Be Quoted Here]
Thanks for posting that article. I needed that.
Uhh… interesting how much is being said here. Anyway, reading these comments and talking to my friend Suzi the other day has really made me start to think about this all again.
Background: I started to go to GC because of friends I met at university inviting me. I really liked it, made new friends and really felt I met with God.
I found this website when I was searching for more information on Pastor Judah and read a lot of the articles. A lot of them started to make me angry at city church as a whole. I enjoyed it still, but didn’t like the politics and lack of care for the poor that I read about. I didn’t see much happening in teh church either.
After coming here I started to keep my eyes open and watch those at the church. I didn’t see many people there at soup kitchens or serving the poor. They all seemed to be absorbed in increasing numbers; never really saw the money grabbing that is portrayed here though.
Suzi and I a lot and she had anwsers for many of my questions. And some stuff she didn’t have answers for she wrote down and said she will get back to me. (still waiting)
I AM thinking of going back to GC; I mean I really miss it all. I hated avoiding my friends just to cut the church off. I am not sure what I miss, but I miss it. My anger seems to be less now than it was last December.
That recap is just so you know where I am right now…
Here are a couple of questions though that I have for you all, since my talk with Suzi.
1) What is wrong with following a leader? Paul said to follow him as he follows Christ. Paul wasn’t perfect, yet it is in the bible. (There were other examples but I forget them) Isn’t a Pastor like a Paul?
2) If you found a person dying of starvation and you could only either (a) teach them the gospel; or (b) meet their physical needs; which would you do and why?
(And it is only 1 or the other; not meet their needs then teach them the gospel…)
3) I got sent this link today, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNmssltcSYc Dissect it and show me what is wrong with it.
4) Explain a little who you are and why your opinion on Judah or Jesus should matter (this one is from Suzi. She doesn’t think very much of this website).
5) Suggest a lively church in the University area of Seattle that is a good alternative to the GC if I don’t go back there.
Thanks guys, I really appreciate this all. Sorry I dragged you all into it, but I really appreciate that you care about some random person on their internet.
There is nothing wrong (in my opinion) about following a leader. But you would really need to define what the word “follow†means. My experience at City Bible Church was that “to follow†meant to allow them to tell you exactly what you could and could not do. They lived your life for you. This is dangerous. If “follow†means to listen to, take advice from, respect, imitate…well then you’re probably fine. The real key to me is this: Do you have a “healthy relationship†with the person you are following? Or is it all a one sided, cult like relationship.
Be very careful comparing a Pastor to Paul. Just because you have the TITLE does NOT mean that you are like Paul.
PASTOR does NOT equal APOSTLE.
Have Suzi answer this question: Are Judah’s teachings consistent with Paul’s? (Consider Paul teaching “contentment when he had nothing†and Judah teaching that God wants us to have More than Enough).
This is a poor question….but I’ll try to answer it anyway. If it’s me, I take option B. Here is why. I have spent a lot of time working with the hungry and one thing I’ve found is that they ALL have heard the gospel. They all know that Jesus died for their sins…but they also have rarely SEEN the gospel. By meeting their physical needs I’ll be SHOWING them Christ in action. Then, once they are nursed back to health, they will be much more responsive to HEARING the gospel.
Also, consider the story of the Good Samaritan. Jesus could have used this story as a time to push CHURCH GROWTH but he didn’t. It’s simply a story about loving those that no one else would.
I will have to watch this and get back to you later.
Sure. Who’s Suzi and why should her opinion matter? I’m really nobody. I’ve spent my life in church. I spent 10 years at City Bible Church (very similar to TCC), believing every word they taught. When I left to go to another church it hurt. But once there ( I attend The Well Community Church in Portland now) I started hearing the real Gospel. It changed my life. I realized that the majority of the information I had received while at CBC was simply wrong and missed the point (although it all sounded great). Judah Smith is hands down the most entertaining Christian speaker I have ever heard…but his content is mostly FLUFF. There is no real substance to it.
But don’t take my word for it. Read the Bible for yourself (especially the new testament with what Paul is teaching). Compare it to Judah and judge for yourself.
Also, If you want a GREAT book to read that really will help you sort this issue out try Tim Keller’s A Prodigal God. It’s short and fantastic and really will change your walk with God regardless of whether you go back to GC or not.
Mars Hill. I know Mark Driscoll has his issues and isn’t always the most popular guy but everything I have heard from him (regardless of whether I agree with it or not) is GOSPLE based. He teaches the true gospel of grace and that is the most important factor, in my opinion, when it comes to picking a church.
Good luck with your journey. Hopefully you can find a way to grow through all this and come out better in the end.
Jennifer said:
No worries – you didn’t drag us in – we were already here
Thanks for coming back and letting us know how you are doing cuz I’m sure we all (those who read your posts) were wondering.
Bottom line is that we all do care about people or we wouldn’t be blogging, even though some think it devisive and uncaring. We care about the perception of Jesus and how it relates to a person’s walk with him. The aim of alot of ppl here and on other blogs has been to expose the truth and speak up about how we’ve seen the truth distorted in the various churches we’ve attended. I guess our convaluted experiences drew us here bcz they were similar. Not saying that we have a complete handle on truth but we are in pursuit of it.
One of the main questions remains is how do we encourage people to come to the Lord and into his lifestyle without subjecting them to some of the weirdness the Christian subculture has morphed into? How to navigate in one’s faith yet stay free of group-think / group-speak? Maybe it will always be a dilemma.
People tend to naturally organize in groups and leaders tend to rise to the top so to speak- some are really good at it. So following a leader in a normal balanced way is ok. The best leaders have the best interest of those who follow their lead at heart and it shows. There are others that may have a certain charisma and even a gift of leading (that’s why ppl are drawn to them) but they are more interested in themselves maintaining leadership – I suppose they are more self-centered for whatever reason- and that becomes obvious over time. Those types tend to consider themselves lords over peoples’ souls rather than humble servants just trying to give any help they can.
No matter what, though, the temptation will always exist to allow a leader to have too much authority in your life and let that person have too much say in your responsibilites. We all need to remember to keep that in check, go to the Lord ourselves, ask him for guidance and follow his lead. It takes more work that way cuz it requires more from us than to just to be told what to do and do it.
I think it all boils down to how much time to give the church you attend. Although I see the benefits of good leaders, I don’t have to give my energy to their particular projects unless it part of what God asks me to do. We each have projects of our own with only a certain amount of time to get them done in. No matter where you go you’ll need to decide how much time to give which is fine, just keep it in balance with the rest of your life and continue to go for your own goals as well. Church is meant to encourage us in our faith, not take our entire lives over.
I totally agree with JohnPaul – Jesus said to do the work of the gospel.
Just to let you (and Suzi) know: I was in an MFI church (one of the sister churches of City Chuch) for more than 15 years and on staff part of that time. I had a lot of red flags surface and I was constantly struggling there. But there were reasons I stayed. It dawned on me over time that if I really believe I am a free American and a child of a God, then I can be just that no matter where I go (or don’t go) to church. I became reaquainted with the Jesus I had first met (when I was a little younger than you are). He got covered up and lost in all the stuff we had to do at and for church. Because of that, I’m determined not to idolize or worship any leader again by giving him/her too much of a place in my heart – I know he may need help with his vast work for God but is it my work too? Yet trying to keep that in balance – it’s not that I hate pastors. Just not going there again.
Hi Jennifer,
Are these really your questions? Or Suzi’s questions? You know, Suzi is welcome to talk to us herself! But whatever…
Well, that depends on the leader. If the leader is following Christ, then great: follow the leader! But how are you going to know if the leader is following Christ?
That depends, too. If the person is going to meet his Maker in the next 10 minutes, then teach him the gospel. If there is a chance that you can have a part in restoring him physically, then do that first. He may have a chance to hear the gospel at a later time.
Speaking of Paul, he said, “I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.” So if all of Judah’s preaching were mostly like this, then this blog page would not exist.
My opinion matters to absolutely nobody except to someone who might be interested in hearing the perspective of a person who has a quarter of a century’s experience in the “City” church mindset. Wisdom can be gained by hearing all sides of a matter.
I don’t live in Seattle, so I’m no help there. JohnPaul mentioned a church that is quite famous, and maybe it’s a great place. But there may be a small church just right for you that God will lead you to if you ask Him — or He may lead you back to GC.
If I can give you any advice it is this: Pray and ask for discernment. It’s something God wants His people to have. Then read your Bible, especially Matthew and the epistles. Then listen to various sermons with the “ears” of Peter, John and Paul. Compare not only the content, but the tone, the “spirit” of the words.
God wants you to be in a family, so no wonder you missed your friends when you left. I missed my friends terribly when I left “the mother ship.” And I continued to be their friends when I left — our relationship just changed. God eventually led us to the right church for us at this time. So just make sure you listen to Him and become part of the right family!
Judah is the product of nepotism, a practice from the Middle Ages used by the Catholic church as a means to continue a papal “dynasty”…in other words if it wasn’t for daddy it is unlikely he’d be in the same position. Little of this stuff is a personal attack on Judah, but more of a question of discernment and decision making by The City Church. I would be highly skeptical of ANY pastor who has no college education, no biblical training or at the bare minimum no life experience beyond his own little bubble. Why? Because this is how abuse is fostered. People in Judah’s position have very few “real” friends who will challenge them on their behavior, question their thoughts, and stand up to them when making bad decisions. Over time the continued adoration by yes men leads to massive corruption. When a kid is spoon fed his whole life, then handed the keys of the kingdom without question as to his ability, maturity, or knowledge a church is taking some big risks. I hope Judah proves us all wrong and becomes a great leader for the next generation, however based on history, it doesn’t seem like he or anyone else up there really cares about extending God’s kingdom any farther then their bank account and public image. And that is the truly tragic! So much lost potential to see real work done.
Jennifer did say:
So how was church last week? Did Suzi ever followup and answer the questions you were waiting for?
Again, thanks for the recap of a window into your world Jennifer. We appreciated you taking the time to do that.
Some of us took the time, too, to thoughtfully answer the specific questions in your post above, but so far no comment from you, which is fine. Free country and all that. I just hope the reason you haven’t returned is for any other reason than City Church (Suzi or anyone else there bending your ear) has discouraged you from visiting. If you decide not to return by means of your own decision, that’s better than giving into their peer pressure or group-think, so that’s another story.
You see, it has been the pattern of City Church people to drop by with shotgun comments mainly to defend Judah, and tell us how horrible and bitter we are, without following up. We take the time to offer explanation and our side of the debate but they are no where to be seen. I think that is so uncaring of them and, not to mention, a bit shallow. It reinforces our opinions of course, although we understand, too, that people get busy. Any mature thinking person would consider that.
Anyway, free country and all that but I do hope all is well.
That youtube link (only answered to by ONE poster) in Jennifer’s questions is quite telling…for all the hoopala on this blog in 07 and 08 about Judah Smith…he is now preaching Christ and Him crucified, GRACE and not works (pray the most, read the most, etcc) and not even preachin old dogmas like people are sick because of a lack of faith.
He’s taken the MFI/Bible Temple/TCC doctrines and made some major changes, as far as this observer can tell.
And time and again, JESUS is at the center.
So looks like many of your concerns, (as far as Judah Smith is concerned, anyway) worked themselves out over time…in fact, just 3 short years.
Jen: go back to GC. You felt the life, the Spirit of God there, and you have good friends there. Forget the haters who just want to nit-pick.
Well it’s been awhile but we finally have another fly by poster protecting the sacred Judah Smith. I love when these people pop in (always anonymous of course).
If Judah is a changed man it will happen in his actions, not in his words. The fact that Judah has begun preaching a different message then the dogma of CBC or TCC should be no surprise to anyone, and doesn’t all of the sudden make him an amazing pastor. If he wants to stay a hot relevant, young pastor he better change that old and tired song. Droves of young people are fleeing from that kind of oppressive, hurtful environment, and he sees it as much as anyone else. In fact this blog wouldn’t have lasted as long as it has if it wasn’t for this type of message still being preached from pulpits all over America. I listened to his series on grace and was nauseated by his poor understanding of scripture and grasp on the Gospel. Grace is a hot topic these days and JS was smart to address it. However, the way in which he addressed it was no different then a message by Franky D. As the famous quote goes, “you can put lipstick on a pig, and it’s still a pig.”
I will believe in true change from Judah when I see him acting humble, not caring about how great his clothes are, how big his house is, how nice his car is, or how hot his wife is. These are superficial things that a real pastor has no business or concern of promoting from the pulpit.
The Reformer said:
Yep, except for the fact that while he has no business promoting it, the “business” side of it probably means that he should promote it (if we are talking bringing in more money/people). Seeing the people, especially the younger ones that eat it up, who go to this place– it certainly is the type that want to obtain these things that Judah doesn’t do a good job of hiding.
After all, why work hard in school and bust your rear at your job when you can just follow these teachings and be blessed no matter what? It worked for him, right? He can say whatever he wants, but the fact is that his image is always talking, even when he isn’t.
NOT Mars Hill!!!!!!!!
Ok, so he has a “great church”, and has “broken the missionary code” in Seattle much like TCC. Mars hill reaches out to young unmarried or new married or married with out kids people. TCC reaches families, both these churches have figured out how to “Break the missionary code” in Seattle.
That being said: If your a women do not go to Mars Hill! No women are allowed in leadership. No women are allowed to teach. It really is not biblical at all and has a bad breath smell of legalism. I would rather go to TCC and get weak good doctrines then Mars hill and get a bigoted un-christian view of women.
Not fun, don’t go!.
How to find a church? Hmm that is difficult question. I think church should be about relationships, so if your friends are at TCC go there just read the bible on your own and learn for your self. Get a “Cell group” together and give to the poor if that is your thing.
I agree about Mars Hill.
While I believe that Judah is a silver-spoon poser, I am positive that Mark Driscoll is an idiot. I would certainly take Judah Smith over Mark Driscoll, if I was forced to choose. At least Judah’s insecurities are manifested in shopping sprees, as opposed to Mark’s “I’m such a manly-man” tirades.
Sure you are, Mark… sure you are.
A lot of my friends love Mark Driscoll. Friends whose spiritual lives and theology I trust. I even have a few friends who are members of his church. That said, given his long-well-known and adamant views on women’s “roles,” as described by Former NBCC Member, I don’t ever listen to or read his stuff. Never have. Yes, I’m a woman. No, I don’t have any “aspiration” to have a “pastor” title. So, that’s not it. I just don’t believe his views on women are scriptural, and I think they actually are destructive, to women, to marriage, to the body of Christ.
I have no interest in Judah, either. Why settle for either weak theology OR bigotry (well, bigotry is an example of bad doctrine, isn’t it)? No reason to. There are too many other churches and other ways to fellowship with people who have sound doctrine and regard all people groups as equally valuable and valid! It’s like, why drink bad wine? Life’s too short for that, there’s an abundance of delicious wine to be enjoyed. Same with church/fellowship.
I wonder if anyone here has specifically written Judah Smith to address your complaints with his preaching. If not, then shame on you for “dissecting” his ministry and motives (buying expensive jeans = greedy… as if you have the right to decide that) behind his back. Either keep your negative degrading unproductive comments to yourself, or do something about it. Share a message you believe is the truth (without bringing Judah into the mix).
The only reason I’m adding my 2 cents instead of keeping my opinion to myself is because tearing down people God’s appointed goes against the Bible, and I will stand up against that injustice.
I would dare to say Jesus is ashamed of this blog. But hey, that’s just my opinion.
I appreciate your concern JD. However I prayed about this, and God told me Judah isn’t Gods annointed. So the blog is okay. But thanks for your concern, there is a lot of evil out there, and we as Christians need to stay vigilant.
Hey JD, I didn’t receive the memo updating God’s “anointed list”– could you forward it to me?
Thanks.
But Judah talks about Jesus in his sermons and he reads from the Bible…that must mean he’s one of God’s annointed?
[Comment ID #38171 Will Be Quoted Here]
hahahahahahahahahahahahah. rotfl, lol. (every other silly laughing abbr)!!!!!
That was hilarious. It is so funny. I see people always snapping at each other on here all the time, but that was just down-to-earth funny.
Glad some people on here have a sense of humor and don’t take everything so seriously…
JD: On this thread: http://www.citybusinesschurch.org/blogblog/2010/07/08/city-boobie-church-loses-another-one/#comments
Somebody was making the same case. If you have some time you can read my response there, I am not re-posting it here. The moderators wanted to mute me for writing such a long study on the blog
It starts out as “MrHopper has an interesting perspective about “God’s Annotated†”
Enjoy!
LOL. I appreciate the response, NBCC.
You can actually link directly to your comment, which I have done here.