As you may recall, Christian Life Fellowship is in the process of removing their Senior Pastor, Doug Cotton, from church leadership. The elders of the church allege Mr. Cotton has anger issues, and they convinced him to resign. However, the eldership and congregation ran into resistance from MFI, an Association of Ministers to which Doug is a member. MFI is fighting to reinstate Mr. Cotton as Senior Pastor. You can read about it here.
On Saturday, I received an email update from a reader close to the situation.
Thanks for having a discussion about what happened at Christian Life Fellowship and Doug Cotton. It really served a purpose. I wanted to let you know some developments. The elders of CLF have decided to have a congregational vote to officially fire Doug. It will be on November 29th. They have over 80 pages from 18 or so people to present.
Then on Sunday the same reader sent me this:
Just got word today that Doug Cotton changed his mind and is not going to ask for a vote. He has resigned.
I can only imagine the Congregation stood by the elders decision. And Doug Cotton knew he was going to lose a vote. While this is likely best for the church, it is a bit of a blow to MFI. As evidently, Wendell Smith had his church counsel represent Doug during this proceeding.
The other weird thing I found out recently is that Doug has an attorney. This attorney was provided by Wendell Smith. This lawyer is on Wendell's church staff. From what I understand he is not a pastor who just happened to be a lawyer. He is on staff as a lawyer. I have never heard a church that had a lawyer on staff. Is it cheaper to have an elder on staff then to pay as you go? Anyway, kind of strange.
It is kind of strange. But ultimately, a good experience. Christians seem to have this mentality that nothing can go wrong with their church. The church is perfect. When in reality, churches are run by humans, and humans make mistakes.
And in the end, this was probably a good learning experience for everyone. Hopefully, CLF will find a pastor who embodies Christ and serves the congregation's needs. Hopefully, Mr. Cotton is able to learn to control his anger. And hopefully, MFI and Wendell Smith learn to submit to the wishes of churches to which they are not members.
Having a lawyer on staff at a church would lead me to believe they are engaged in practices that might step on peoples’ toes… So running the toe stomping by the lawyer first …they can make sure they are PC about the process??
Let’s hope Pastor Cotton did some knee time and he and God decided the correct thing to do was to finally honor his word and actually resign. NOT that the MaFIa wielded any clout here and tucked tails and ran.
Can’t imagine that the lawyer is truly “on staff”, but rather a church member who lends his services freely to the church. The “on staff” remark is just boastful, I imagine.
In a situation like CLF/Cotton, the lawyer is there only for sabre-rattling – to instill fear and intimidation – Cotton/MFI’s best hope was that CLF would back down.
Bravo CLF!
MaFIa…love it.
Don’t all business’s have a lawyer on staff? Oh sorry I forgot we’re
talking about a church not a business.
as a member of CLF…i am just soooo glad that this mess is over and we can get on with serving the Lord and doing His Work. But i am saddened by what i have seen in Doug Cotton. …truly saddened.
I think it is important for people (especially those caught in the turmoil down at CLF) to TRY to be objective, and know that humans tend to view things through their hurts.
Having a lawyer does not mean there will be a lawsuit. Lawyers advise, negotiate, interpret, and mediate. They do not always sue, and some never step foot into a courtroom.
I don’t know if City Bible Church has a paid lawyer on staff, a volunteer lawyer on staff, or a staff member who is also a lawyer.
It is good practice for any organization to have available legal counsel to make sure that the organization complies with myriad state and federal laws (employment, tax, records/reporting, etc.).
Having said that, it does seem intrusive, meddlesome, and counter-productive that a mega-church outside of Seattle would dispatch an attorney to participate in the internal proceedings of a small church out in the boondocks.
How does this foster a continued relationship between the churches and the local bodies of Christ?
Does Wendell Smith and his attorney smell a conpiracy against Doug Cotton?
Have they discerned that all of the elders of CLF, its staff, reportedly 18 members/families (those who issued statements) have all jointly conspired to remove a pastor?
I have seen know reports of any fact-finding efforts by Wendell Smith or his lawyer.
Is it because they are the Big Church that they can do this?
Have they also inserted themselved into the affairs of churches in Lynden, Battleground, Colville, Clarkston and other smaller communties across the state?
It must be nice to be a Superpower.
So is he running for office?
bring on the krypton
[Comment ID #10498 Will Be Quoted Here]
Wendell Smith? What office would he run for?
Seems he might carry a little baggage, wouldn’t you think?
This is sadly the case. He was provided services free of charge to Doug as did two other attorneys. CLF was forced into hiring their own. The elders wanted to work things out without them but Doug insisted. It was rather interesting. The elders exhausted every avenue for reconciliation but Doug would not move ahead with anything until he was assured by the elders that he would be Senior Pastor once again. When they offered the counseling again, he wanted to know if he went to counseling if he would be senior pastor again. Obviously he still doesn’t think he has a problem. When the elders sat down with the 80 plus pages of “charges,” his attitude was it was no big deal. Hurting God’s flock is no big deal? Since when?
Please remember our church in your prayers. Please pray for healing of those who have been hurt by his anger and those who were hurt from this situation. Please pray for reconciliation for all involved. Pray that the blinders be removed from Doug’s eyes and the Spirit can minister to his heart. God truly gave this man a gift for ministery and it is sad to see it stiffled in this way. In advance, thank you for your prayers.
So sorry for CLF – our hearts go out to you -especially since it had to
‘get legal’ isn’t this wrong on so many levels? Aren’t we admonished
not to bring a ‘judge’ into a situation if at all possible because than we have to
abide his decision.
Casual Observer do tell -what baggage? Is there something you know that
can help us all understand what is going on behind the scenes?
As you can tell we’re struggling to make sense of this power play.
I was responding to the comment about someone running for office.
I assumed that the comment was about Wendell Smith possibly running.
Perhaps North by Northwest could clarify what was meant by the comment about someone running for office.
If Wendell Smith runs, I assume his meddling in the affairs of other churches would be baggage.
That’s all.
So, NxNW, to whom were your referring?
Thanks,
C.O.
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Casual observer -the comment about running for office was just a remark
made when you asked if they were involved in other small church’s business
and when you commented you have seen the ‘findings’ they have gathered.
This reminds me of someone preparing to run for an office of some type but I was kidding –however I have wondered if he is preparing to take Dick Iverson’s position some day as some have hinted at in the blog.
Its obvious if that happens than new tactics will be in place–
intimidation was enough before but now its turning into Boston Legal or rather
Seattle Legal.
[Comment ID #10552 Will Be Quoted Here]
Someone else on this discussion had reported seeing the “findings” of the church leadership in this matter.
Regardless of the “findings” of what actually happened, and the necessity to end what Cotton was doing, people who truly place their hope in Jesus Christ will need to move to the point of forgiveness.
It is appropriate to act to end harmful behavior. It is also appropriate — and expected by God — to forgive.
I saw a program last night with Charles Stanley, who was talking about forgiving those “who commit evil.”
He said that sometimes the evil is committed by those who profess to knowing and following Jesus Christ, and that makes it more challenging to forgive them. I assume this is so because we do not expect brothers and sisters in Christ to commit evil against us.
Stanley pointed out that we suffer double when we do not forgive. First, we suffer from the offense, then we suffer from holding the pain and unforgiveness.
I certainly would expect that the people of CLF (or other churches in similar straits) would have some healing to find, even after forgiving their pastor for what he has done to them.
But that journey starts with forgiveness.
I am praying for the people of CLF that God will strengthen them, give them peace and wisdom, and give them deep understanding in this matter.
Despite his actions, we should all also pray for their pastor, that he will find forgiveness, peace, and renewal. His journey must start with taking responsibility for his actions.
C.O.
Absolutely do we believe and know and have had to forgive ourselves and those that hurt us.
If you’ve been on this blog very long you’ll catch the fact its here to help mop up
the faithful that were left — like those who had been on staff with these
powerhouse types–like elders, group leaders, evangelists –all types.
But there does have to be hospital time with those who understand to truly
get your feelings out.
It seems like we have to say this over and over –depending on how deep the involvment or deep the hurt you will have to find a place of like minded
experienced believers to who get it and who can help you work your forgiveness through.
Does total healing and forgiveness happen with one pass through –not usually. If only that was true how easy it would be. Most true healing from
spiritual wounds starts with forgiveness and then processing comes one layer at a time.
Its like telling a burn victim just apply a bandaid and go on about your business. All injuries are not the same in their time of healing.
According to the Spiritual Abuse book –wounds of the spirit can take the longest to heal because they go to your very core of your being — the place most precious and sensitive is our spirit. When that is wounded it may just take some time to heal and process. Sorry but this is true.
CLF is the tiniest part of this whole picture –its just the flavor of the month.
Thank goodness this blog is trying to address the big picture!
It has been five years now and I have finally stopped calling down “fire” on the wretched SOBs every time I drive past their evil empire … is that a sign of healing?
Warm and Fuzzy –you made me day! I needed the laugh your comment provides-see laughter is the best medicine by the way you’re not the only one who has used that technique!
[Comment ID #10651 Will Be Quoted Here]
Perhaps a sign of forgetfulness, distraction, or frustration that the fire has not actually descended.
On its face, it does not appear to be neither forgiveness nor healing.
C.O.
Casual Obscurer:
Watch out! Them triple negatives threaten the blog-space continuum!
I guess I said that wrong.
It appears to be neither forgiveness nor healing.
Sometimes, it does not appear to be property English, at least on my part.
My HS English teacher would chastise me for that last post.
It proves that all of us, including those in ministry, can use correction now and then!
Nice play on the name, too!
C.O.
Quoting Dick Iverson in his apparently dimished classic, “Maintaining balance when winds of doctrine blow”. Chapter four ” Discerning imbalance”
pg 100, #12. Watch out for doctrines that diminish the power of the cross and the work of REPENTANCE in the believer (read: Pastor) I Cor 2:2.
#13 Watch out for doctrines that are not willing to be questioned or tested I Thess 5:21, I John 4:1.
Pg.101 # 14 Watch out for doctrines that lead to spiritual pride of exclusivism, Matt 24:26-27.
#15 Watch out for doctrines that elevate or promote the individual above Christ, John 3:30. Pg. 102 What out when the vessel does not confirm the message, Matt 7:15-20.
According to Brother Dick’s own writing there seems to be some doctrinal problems with MFI and their mishandling/meddling in the CLF matter. It goes to show what happens when small deviations in the course of a church or organization are allowed to continue over time. Just like in navigation, the smallest deviations, given enough time end up in large deviations. And then you are just plain lost.
JayGee,
I’m sure that book had a ghost writer. Your post is probably the first time Dick got to read it.
Good work.
I talked to someone today that is very close to the Doug Cotton situation. They said that several people on the eldership also had anger and control problems. One had even been in counseling for years about it. Sounds kinda like the pot calling the kettle black. Maybe they all need to resign and let some healthier people come in and lead.
Actually, Rhema, the CLF elders are searching for more people to join the board of elders. The current elders know their strengths and weaknesses, especially after the ousting of Doug Cotton.
Based on what I have seen, any personality problems exhibited by the CLF elders are minuscule compared to Doug’s. Doug Cotton thought that he, as pastor, could do anything he wanted to. He thought the board of elders worked for him. In actuality and according to the church bylaws, the pastor works for the board.
Doug, at least as of a year ago, was a charismatic speaker but not a servant leader. He kept people in line by using anger, lying, and manipulation. He wanted to shrink the size of the elder board so there would be less accountability. Whether Doug has changed in the past year, I don’t know.
In contrast, the current CLF elders understand that they are not perfect. No elder, or Christian for that matter, is. They are open to new people joining leadership in official and unofficial capacities. They are open to talking to people and hearing new ideas. They know that they won’t have the answers to every question, but do their best anyway. They seem real in their faith and genuine in their lives. It’s a refreshing change.
Rhema, I’d be very suspect talking to anyone close to Doug Cotton…they lie…or, if they don’t lie, they’ve been lied to, and are believing it and telling it–thus lying….:o)
The person I talked to wasn’t close to Doug Cotton. They said they knew certain elders and from their perspective they had the same problems.
I drove by the old Alexander Young school a few days ago.(The future home of Harbor City Church.) There was a few cars parked in front and one of the license plates read- RMA-002. Was this a sign? lol! It is refreshing to hear that the current leaders are honest about where they are at and not coming across as being perfect. Had Gail and Eunice Bryan and Rod and Luanne Hill been at least honest about where they were there wouldn’t be so much confusion and dissolusionment.These power types seem to always like to come across as a cut above all the rest when all along they struggle just like everyone else. I remember a teaching from mfi that told pastors and their wives not to make friends or reveal any weakness to their congregations so they wouldn’t be hurt by people. The rest of us were taught to be completely transparent while the leadership always had that protective wall around them. Very condecending if you ask me. And no one can figure out why these relationships don’t work. lol! Speaking of Rod Hill I heard he’s been living in Mexico selling condos and is in leadership in a church down there. I wonder if that church is aware of the things he’s been doing in several other churches prior to coming there. Where is all of the accountability for pastors like him? No one seems to care once they leave their church and go to another one. Will Doug Cotton be open and honest about his anger and control issuses with people coming to his new church? Will anyone be able to ask questions and have them answered so they can know what kind of a group they are joining? I’ve had it said to me if you find a perfect church don’t join it then it wouldn’t be perfect anymore! That’s right but I would sure like to find one with some openness and honesty. If what tiresias is saying is true maybe clf is on its way to becoming a safe place for people. Wow! What a concept! Church a safe place. hmmmm…….
To Tiresias, Hungry on the Harbor, and Rhema Survivor:
Have any of you remained behind at your churches (CLF or Rhema) to change your situation for the better?
If so, what are you doing in that regard?
In terms of the leadership at each church being better than the previous, how can you know? Is it because the new leaderhip tells you that things are different?
Did not Doug Cotton tell you things were OK when they were not? Wasn’t he believed before he was removed from CLF?
Wasn’t Rod Hill believed before he was removed from Rhema?
How can a person be sure that the same issues and patterns are not resident in the individual or group that follows the one that was removed?
Could it be that the congregants at CLF and Rhema so desperately want to believe things are better that they eagerly accept it as so without anything to support that acceptance?
Word in Time….
As one who HAS stayed at CLF I can tell you that most, if not all, that are here are LESS likely to just believe something because leadership tells you. And they are more careful about what they believe and what they see than before. And that is one of the many good things that have come from the change. That and the fact that the Holy Spirit is allowed to move when and how He wants . The move ends when God Says rather than a leader. which is something we are STILL trying to get used to. It has not been that way for nearly 15 years. Very refreshing. We are cautious…but open to the MOVE and INSTRUCTION of God whatever that is.
so i can tell you from those I know and for what I know of CLF at least…that NO we are not so anxious for change that we will believe whatever leadership tells us. It is quite the opposite. And just as Jesus wants.
So how will you assure that this new crop of leaders (with some of the same ol’ same ol’) does not manipulate and damage the Lord’s people like the leaders who have been replaced?
WORD IN TIME.. why are you trying to shift the blame of the mess with DC and CLF away from him and to the church? That is a nasty thing to do.
People underneath leadership can only do so much.. called trickle down effect. If the leader wears shorts, you cannot demand that the followers were tuxedos and prom dresses….
I’m not at all trying to shift blame from the leaders who have been removed. They are responsible for their actions.
Please forgive me if my previous post suggested that those who abused parishoners should not be held accountable.
It seems like abuse occurs, they are removed, and then we tend to pretend everything is now better (so let’s just move on…). But the underlying issues don’t seem to get resolved, do they?
But all of us in these situations of leadership abuse were of the impression, at some point, that the leaders were godly people who were doing things right. We could never have imagined things turning out the way they did.
Perhaps now jaded from my own experience with church leadership abuse, I now find myself wondering how we can discern whether the “replacements” will turn out the same as the “replaced.”
I am not looking to point fingers, here; I am looking for a sincere discussion that will lead us to being better protected from those in leadership who supress input, manipulate from the pulpit, discourage discussion, and leave us shell-shocked with things fall apart.
I don’t have the answers; I am hoping that discussion here will allow those of us participating (from all across this nation) to better protect ourselves from these situations happening again?
Does anyone have any ideas of how we can do this?
Thanks,
WiT
Its admirable that a church finally booted a pastor who was out of hand. I have to give credit to clf for for standing upto a problem. more than most churhes are doing.
[Comment ID #27583 Will Be Quoted Here]I would start by carefully reading through the gospels, paying close attention to what Jesus said and did. Make a list of things He said to do, and start walking it out. Spend time in prayer, and listen. If you are not used to hearing His voice, start by asking simple questions, like “Does Jesus love me?”
Let Jesus lead you instead of some other ‘leader’. (See Matthew 23:10 in NASB)
Make Luke 17:21/Col 1:27 real to yourself, and then find others who are doing the same.
I have not reached the place I want to be yet, but I am far, far from where I started. He walks with me and talks with me.
[Comment ID #27584 Will Be Quoted Here]
Admirable, yes, that a church would remove someone abusive.
If I understand correctly here, from this and other strings of posts, Rhema Church went through this twice, first with their pastor Bryan and then with their pastor Hill.
Why were they vulnerable for the second go-round?
How many times did CLF go through this?
How is it that multiple congregations go through this abuse from the same pastor? How is it that a single congregation goes through this with multiple pastors/elders?
Is the problem, in part that our churches are out there by themselves? It seems that these are mostly independent, non-denomicational congregations that are discussed on this board.
I’ve not, in the past, been a fan of denominationalism, as it seemed to be a divider in the body of Christ that He did not direct. It seemed to me that denominations (and so many of them) were just an indication of the lack of unity in the body of Christ.
Yet, here we are, even in the independent churches that detest denomicational labels. We preferred to call ourselves “Christian” churches and avoid Presbyterian, Lutheran, Baptist, Catholic, AG, Foursquare, Episcopalian, Church of God, etc. etc.
Same problem, though: Abuse and splits.
We have swept things under the rug, much like the Catholic church did with abuse by priests, until things got so bad they were paying out millions of dollars in settlements. Such settlements would destroy these local churches, except perhaps the megas who have millions and millions in property holdings.
I agree with the post about seeking Jesus, reading the Word, etc. Good advice from all of us.
In addition, we are called to fellowship together, to not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing.
How can we make it safe to meet together?
What is the value of a body of believers fellowshipping together if we cannot let down our gaurd and trust?
I want to feel safe with my local church, yet I don’t know how to make sure that the abuse we have escaped is not still resident in the new pastors and the carry-forward elders.
Has anyone on here found answers to these questions?
Seems you all up there have had lots of these situatons, almost like a recycling program gone terribly bad.
Someone must have come through the battles with some better insight as to how to avoid a repeat.
Anyone got some help?
Thanks,
WiT
I guess I’d better clarify. Gail Bryan was pastoring Rehma Fellowship about thirty years ago when he had to step down when it was discovered that he was sleeping with women in the congregation. They brought in a new pastor and Devin Bacholm and Doug Cotton split off from that church and started a new one in Montesano.Some years later the two congregations got back together and started CLF.
Rod Hill was the associate Pastor at Cornerstone Community Church in Aberdeen about ten years ago when he split off from that and started one called River of Life in South Aberdeen. He pastored that church just a few years before leaving town and going to Port Angeles becoming involved right away in a church up there. After leaving River of Life several women have come forward saying they had a sexual relationship with him. That church hasn’t split but some of the people still side with Rod maintaining a long distance relationship with him and his wife. They think that he was seduced. Others think he’s a predator since others have come forward with information that he had done this before coming to Grays Harbor.
Even denominations are not exempt from abuse. No matter how many heads are on the way up, eventually there is a pinnacle, and that human is capable of corruption. Anyone who thinks a denomination is exempt from that possibility has little understanding of the flesh.
How can you be sure that the newspaper carrier isn’t just casing your house to rob it? that the teacher of your children is not a pedophile? that the mechanic who worked on your car really told you the truth about the cost? that the cook in your local restaurant hasn’t poisoned your food? My word, man, this is an evil world, but generally we are able to get through most human interactions without being totally schizophrenic.
Bullies and abusers only abuse the weak to hide their own weaknesses. As long as we are still cowering around waiting for someone to ‘get us’, they will eventually. If we get strong, and place clear boundries around us of acceptable behavior and communication, the abusers will either look elsewhere for a more cooperative victim, or their view of us will change from contempt and/or jealousy to respect, and they will grow up.
Hey, stranger things have happened…:o)
How does that old hymn go…. “My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus’ blood and righteousness. I dare not trust the sweetest frame but wholly lean on Jesus name.”
We can only trust other people as we see them following Christ.
Seriously, I find myself questioning the whole clergy/laity mentality that has permeated the church in many places…denominational and non-denominational alike. This structure (the pastor & his core group versus the congregational paeons) is unhealthy and unbiblical when we look at the structure of the new-testament church (more intimate “home” settings, elder led rather than just pastor-led, whole body functioning in their various giftings rather than a select few). A church can be a healthy, vibrant place so long as the pastor and eldership realize that:
1. They too are sinners in need of Christ to save them, and that they only in the position they are in BY HIS GRACE. They are there to serve the body, not themselves.
2. They don’t walk in “special anointing” that gives them the right to build kingdoms where their own children automatically “inherit the throne”.
3. They aren’t a “one man show” (or one family show, for that matter). They need to encourage the rest of the body to walk in their giftings…even if it gets “messy” sometimes and falls short of the goal of a “perfect” Sunday morning show.
4. They need to realize that “absolute power corrupts absolutely” and walk humbly before the Lord. The “power trip” leads to abuse of power, sexual sin, manipulation, etc.
Those are a few thoughts to start with.
The same thing can happen in the “intimate home settings.” There are always people who want to be in control. You need to find a good counselor that understands spiritual abuse and get educated about this stuff. Then you’ll be able to recognize healthy people when you see them. Years ago when I left Rehma I went to Doug Cotton to talk to him and try and make some sense out of what had happened. (I tried on several occasions to go back to church there.) It was now CLF. He told me that although Gail Bryan had fallen into sexual sin all of the teaching was good. My family and a lot of others left way before that was discovered. We left (yes, after going to Pastor Bryan and Eunice themselves) because of all of the control, manipulation, elitism, spiritual abuse) Others told us that they were warned from the pulpit to stay away from us that we were in rebellion. Imo because Doug Cotton and his eldership at the time never looked beyond the obvious and didn’t have a problem with the core issues, thirty years later it bit him in the ass. I hope the eldership he leaves behind truly seeks to build on a whole new foundation.
So sorry about your bad experiences R.S. –you’ve come to a good place where
we all so get it. When you talk about Eunice do you mean Eunice Bryant–
or is this name just similar. Her son is married to Iverson’s daughter and
they were well emeshed in PBible Temple. Both of her sons now are MFI
pastors—is this one and the same?
Signed Having to know
having to know… Yup
I saw on another blog that Ed Mason is the principal of CBC’s christian school. He’s married to their daughter Dorcas if that helps. If it’s the same Ed Mason that is! Ed is from Grays Harbor originally. He was on staff down here when Gail Bryan was pastoring as was everyone else in his family that was old enough to hold a position. I think the two boys might have still been in bible school when he was here but his two daughters were married and living here at that time.
I can’t believe what I’m reading now but I’m more convinced than ever that
everything that is covered up will be exposed eventually. When I read this I am
amazed that I sat under Eunice’s teaching later on as a widow and nothing
ever came out except how perfect many family members seemed to be.
I remember it being built up when one of them got married that they had never kissed or held hands ect. and that seemed odd to me then. So now I read that
it was being built up of righteousness when all this was ancient history??
What else went on up there and when did Gail pass away. The people who
are now being hammered at his Church of the Harvest –his son’s church
another abusive situation. When will the madness end. I just talked to one
of their refugees on Sunday about how we’re so glad we don’t have
pastors who have about 15 people acting as an Entourage any longer.
Unbelieveable –yet expose away Rhema because you are helping more than
you know. Lets hope others will get the message from the ‘roots’ here.
Bless em with truth I pray.
eunice knew of her husband being caught in two other churches before coming to grays harbor, where he again slept with women of the church, women alone who he had counceled to leave their husbands. he then began coming to there home to chop firewood,paint,mow the grass etc. He then proceeded to seduce them.some of you like joebib will point out their percent of blame but he was good at what he did,destroying people. I thought it was odd when he told my mom that my eight year old sister and other young girls needed to wear padding during swimming because people could see her nipples. lot of the teaching was on sexual sin . His weak spot. I left shortly after.told elders who did not listen.
this reaks of Jimmy Swaggart –teaching on the very sin he was struggling with.
You’ve given illumination like I cannot say –once again I wonder how it was
truly dealt with if ever esp. in light of the fact that both sons are now Pastors
and the one church is as controlling as ever -sending people over the edge.
Do we like to have to write on these things –no! Do I even like to read about
it–no! But years later it explains alot and I am amazed how much was covered up–by the time she got to us he sounded like he was an angel –all those
stories on and on……thank you for telling us why people couldn’t be real and what walls were being built up to cover up this sin.
Imagine if truth really came out and leaders could help others with the same problems they face in their families instead of trying to come off
as ‘Super Sized Saints’ living so way above all of us.
Now more than ever I realize it was a philosophy that was and still is being taught –at least as Capital Christian Center. And on and on it goes………….
Any other information would be helpful -just to understand. Do you know
where he was when he passed away–was it up there at the time–and
who out there knows why they came down to Boise to start this church–
that plant alone has reams of problems as it caused a split in this church
here that has never healed. thank you for being open –your words of truth
bring healing.
Lurkers: What was worse -Watergate or the Coverup
Clinton’s sin or his total denial of all wrong doing
Which caused the most damage to the people around them?
WE did not know it at the time, but before Gail came to grays harbor in the late70s, he had devastated a church in Idaho. Maybe it was their home turf. The real question is how many of these mfi pastors are hurting rather than helping the local churches. Look carefully at their attitude towards women ,the secrecy and their disdain for church members. How do they get their elders to cover for them? Are they really our servants or mini rock stars? Why do members of the congregation side with them and become their apologetics? why when we go to church to meet new friends and worship god,does our speech change ( hello brother etc.),and we are anything but our real selves?
Finaly getting answers: I don’t know where Gail Bryan was when he died. After he left Rehma some time later I heard he was pastoring a church in Port Angeles. I think he did the same thing in that church too. But really I really don’t know much about what happened with him after he left I was too busy seeing doctors and counselors to find out why I began having panic attacks while attending there! I’m sorry to hear that you and others have been affected by this. Tell me more about the church in Idaho. What do you know about the churches his sons are pastoring? Why has the split in your church never been healed?
(Rhema Survivor said: “What do you know about the churches his sons are pastoring?”)
Mark’s church is just outside of Boise, ID: http://www.coharvest.org/
Dave’s church is 45 minutes north of Sacramento, in Live Oak, CA: http://www.churchofgladtidings.com/
Their mom Eunice, still widowed I believe, also attends GT, working with the Seniors.
-joebib
FSO —
I recognize you and your family have suffered hurts from the past, as well as have taken offence at injustices/abuses done to others. You’ve made that abundantly clear.
But, I’m wondering…
When is enough, enough?
How many more times must/will the same sins perpetrated by the same people be repeated here on this blog, before the hunger to do so will be satiated? 10 times? 20 times?
I can’t imagine how the continual re-hashing, by the same several posters, of the same sordid stuff — stuff that took place, what, a couple of decades ago? — which these people did, can possibly be viewed as somehow serving/helping/edifying the Body of Christ? If it does, could someone please explain that to me, within a biblical context?
Especially since surely, by now, everyone on this board has already heard/read/know more about the situation than we need to, inasmuch as their name, their wife’s name, their daughter’s names, their son-in-law’s name, their sons’ names, and so forth, are repeatedly mentioned.
About the only thing we haven’t yet heard is how many positions described in the Kama Sutra those engaged in said behavior were successful in achieving, but I’m sure someone out there knows and can’t wait to tell us. For the record, I’m going with 7.
Based on the nature of what is posted, it seems some of us are choosing to stay in a state of bitterness/non-forgiveness.
How many more years will we allow past offences to burden us down? Instead, why don’t we pray for those who sinned — earnestly pray for their souls, pray for those people affected by their sins, and let God begin to heal all of our spirits, and let the truth of this verse change us?…
“32 And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.†(Ephesians 4:32, NASB)
If we, as Christians, can’t forgive, how are we any different from the world?
————————————————————————
FSO said: “…some of you like joebib will point out their percent of blame….”
These cheap-shots really do smack of pettiness.
If you must quote my remarks piecemeal, then kindly do so in their original context, or have the courtesy to explain why I said what I said, and I will try to do the same for you. Fair enough?
-joebib
My blog was in response to having to know.
It sounds like the Bryan clan is at it again. If they are out there destroying churches Joe I will talk about it for the next 50 years until I stop them and others who abuse the church.
I dealt with people like you Jobib 25years ago when Gail Bryan was devastating a church and the Joebibs were saying “don’t talk about it we will hurt the church.” “shh be loving and forgiving.” “god will expose the leadership.” The people are the church Joe. If church parishioners are hurting then we must speak out. Our silence is what hurts the church. Our silence had been deafening over the years.
The reason MFI pastors who have elitist teachings are still devastating churches with impunity is because of apologetics who use the bible to cover up for them.
Pharisees used scripture against Jesus to shut him up. It is no surprise they are still at it. I will speak out loud and clear for as long as it takes Joe. My loyalty is to God not to Bible Temple.
joebib: this has nothing to do with forgiveness as I’ve already stated. I am responding to finally getting answers who seems to have suffered similar abuses or knows others who have. It sounds these abuses might be happening right now or at least more recently than thirty years ago which has been one of my concerns. How far reaching is the mfi, bible temple teachings? How many people are still being affected? Right now! Today! I’m not bitter or unforgiving about the past I’m concerned about others that might be suffering the same kind of spiritual abuse right now! Why would the other poster be calling themselves FINALLY GETTING ANSWERS if this is such public knowledge? Had bible temple and the Bryans been honest about who they were and been a little more real we wouldn’t be here today. What Gail Bryan did was an abuse of power. Using his position and authority to prey on his own flock. People that trusted him. His wife and family knew about all of this. For them to come across as Super Sized Saints” was wrong. I believe they bought into the MFI “image at all cost” to like so many other pastors and their familys are doing in the MFI churches. That’s where the damage is coming from. That’s the point I’m trying to make here. You guys are upset about the prosperity teaching. Others are upset about some other aspect of MFI and bible temples abuse of power. It’s all wrong. It’s all just as damaging. When you and others talk about and “rehash” the prosperity teaching and everything else people are experiencing in MFI churches that seems to be ok. I’m sorry that you guys just got your pocketbooks robbed not your wives ,sisters, or daughters!
It sounds to me like people were silenced for 25 years. Joe your statement is pretty sick:
I’ve noticed from your past blogs that you add things about sex, positions etc. I’m starting to see why you apologize for sexual sin. Enough said on that just an observation
Here’s to FSO and RS –I address you only because the other voice of
‘silence silence-cover the sin’ has to be silenced! It is not helping anyone to
keep quiet any long–if we were rehashing things over and over that would be one thing –this is not a rehash but very much a surprise to me and to those
here who also read this blog. You have just filled in answers to our questions
–thank you for untwisting what was twisted in our minds by being continually decieved. It is at the very root of this movement because the fruit here iconstantly shows.
I wonder if anyone ever thought about applying I Corinthians 6:1-8 (NIV) to this situation:
“If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church! I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? But instead, one brother goes to law against another—and this in front of unbelievers! The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers.”
[Comment ID #27769 Will Be Quoted Here]
Do your observational skills include the ability to recognize s-a-r-c-a-s-m? Ever heard of the term “tongue-in-cheek?â€
I made those comments to jolt others into seeing the level to which they are taken up with these things.
You make blanket statements based on (knowingly?) incorrect conclusions. If you will take the time to carefully read my previous posts on this matter, you will find I described him and/or what took place, as follows:
“sinâ€
“sinfulâ€
“terribleâ€
“despicableâ€
“abominableâ€
“guiltyâ€
“terribleâ€
etc.
FSO……Kindly show me — in context please — where I “apologized†for what he did. What I DID do, and continue to do at the repeated repostings, is to ask pertinent, relevant questions on:
- the nature of adultery between consenting adults;
- the taking up of offences;
- looking at one’s own sins before (and after) casting stones at others;
- self-righteousness;
- bitterness;
- slander, gossip, and reviling;
- refusal to forgive others;
- healing;
- and most importantly…obeying/applying the Word of God.
The biblical injunction to expose those leaders who have sinned has definitely been fulfilled.
Many, many, times over. No doubt about that.
However, it was only a partial fulfillment, since I see no love (Eph. 4:15), or meekness and personal introspection (Gal. 6:1) taking place. If they are, please let me know.
Jesus encouraged whoever was “without sin†to begin casting stones. Apparently, those who continually re-hash, re-hearse, and re-tell the sins of others meet this standard. I would love to know how you pulled “sinlessness” off…it’s been pretty tough for me, and everyone else I know
Apparently, these saints also have risen above the Word of God, since they have the right to disobey Ephesians 4:32: “And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.â€
That is, unless there’s a new definition of “tender-heartedness†and “forgiveness†making the rounds that I’m not aware of.
I’ll say it again…the whole situation needs to be dealt with biblically.
The process of healing and forgiveness needs to be allowed to begin.
-joe
P.S. Hey, I know…why not continue to avoid forgiving others, and letting healing come, and instead, make more accusations about me?
There was never any lawsuit filed. This situation was handled within the church. That’s the problem. MfI and Bible Temple did handle this situation within the church they just never “appointed as judges even men of little account in the church.” The leaders judged it and decided how it was to be handled. The “men of little account ” were never even allowed to ask questions! Our eldership should have at least had that information so they could have made an informed decision as to whetherthey wanted to have him as a pastor or not. Just a few years ago another pastor (Rod Hill) split a church and took half of the people with him. A couple of years later he was exposed for having sex with one of his elders wives. He left town and moved to Port Angeles. His faithful wife stayed with him. They immediately got involved in leadership there. They’ve since moved to Mexico and are involved in leadership down there. More women coming forward saying he stalked them and pressured them also. Some saying he’s done the same thing in other churches too. Again this is being handled within the church. Where is the accountability? Who is watching these men and looking out for the next unsuspecting congregation that they go to? When CLF tried to confront Doug Cotton about his abuse and keep it within the church it did no good. (MFI, Wendell Smith and Dick Iverson are the ones that brought in the attorneys!) It was only when he was threatend with public exposure that Doug Cotton decided to step down. He gets to take many from that congregation and start another church with MFIs blessing. Where is the justice? Where is the restoration for the abused? Where is the protection for the next congregation? The church handles all these matters from a leadership perspective not from the “men of little account” perspective.
joebib said:” the nature of adultry between concenting adults” You just don’t get it do you joe? That’s ok. Neither did MFI or Dick Iverson.
[Comment ID #27782 Will Be Quoted Here]
Joe (and yeah, I’m sort of butting in to this discussion here), I can sort of see what you’re saying. We ARE told to forgive. We are told not to let a root of bitterness grow in our hearts.
The problem is, however, that these leaders are teachers and are thus held more liable for their actions. According to James 3 verse 1 their lives ARE more subject to scrutiny and judgment than the lives of the “average Joe Christian”:
For this reason, people entering ministry should do so soberly realizing this fact.
In the case of many of these leaders, appropriate avenues for biblical discipline were followed by the congregation. Those in upper leadership, in many cases, either swept these cases under the rug or gave a “hand slap” rather than serious church discipline. Abuse was allowed to either continue or to “shift” the abuser to a different ministry.
This remains an “open” wound and an offense to some people because the sin is STILL occurring.
Yes, we need to forgive, but for many folks this is still raw and a very current situation since they have family and loved ones still sitting under these leaders. Plus, many people have years vested in these churches and are grieved at the lack of accountability.
‘He that hath ears, let him hear what the spirit saith: Openess brings healing.’ (Revelations) Many members under the pastor Gail were wounded. What you call “rehashing” is a wound that was not cleansed properly, it became infected and festered, and it now needs to be reopened and cleansed properly, we must get it all out.
‘If we confess our sins (hurts), he is faithful to forgive us of our sins and CLEANSE us from all unrighteousness.’
As Christians we need to lift all these families up in prayer and eachother because God is the ‘Great Physician,’ only the Lord God can heal all these wounds.
He that hath ears, let him hear what the spirit saith.
Love keeps no record of wrongs, therefore pursue love.
God is Love.
-An Ambassador for Christ
[Comment ID #27793 Will Be Quoted Here]
Thank You!!!! As I read your comment I wept.. For the first time on this blog you have given me hope, maybe validation, mercy, & Love. We don’t want vengeance. We do for give. We want to offer hope for all that have been abused and are being abused today. Can’t you see? Bible Temple was corrupt at its core. Everyone taught from there has the same problem. Its the same for every cult. you do need to be cleansed and renewed. They have brainwashed their followers. Jesus said; I am the vine. not bt or any other church name. Away from him we can do nothing! WE are the anointed. we are the temple of the living God. We are the Church. Jesus came to set the captives free, to heal the broken hearted etc. Its the truth that sets us free. so keep opening the prison doors by speaking the truth.
[Comment ID #27583 Will Be Quoted Here]
This thought came to my mind. When slavery was abolished the slaves had to learn to be free. In Iraq things are a mess right now because people don’t know how to be free.
I think it’s going to take time and healing. People need to learn to have self government under Christ. I believe the current leadership will have to repent in many areas where there has been abuses and where they have tried to control people, situations and circumstances.
Everyone will have to apply forebarence with one another. Some may have to leave the church for awhile just to get a proper perspective from the Lord.
Unfortnantely I have seen this many times on the Harbor and know many believers who have been hurt by these splits. I think what I have learned is that the form we have operated under as a church has not worked; specifially those that come from the MFI or FCL churches (KMI churches). They are extreamly top down in their administration of governement.
Here are some things I have learned after being in at least three of the Harbor splits.
To let go of people, God is God and believers are His.
Speak the truth, in love, DO NOT just sit back and say nothing!!
Stay true to Him, in your conscience, if something doesn’t feel right but you can’t put your finger on it there is most likely a reason. Pray and ask God to show you.
Know those who labor amoung you. That is a principle that so lacks in the body of Christ.
Encourage one another to return to their first love, Jesus. He should be the center of our lives.
Dig into the word, Spiros Zodhiates – The Complete Word Study New Testament With Greek Parallel is a great resource. Don’t just take what you hear from the pulpit as Gods last say on a subject. It is our responsiblity as Christians to dig in. We leave it up the pulpit to dictate our doctrine and theology far too much.
Study with other believers, learn to debate and disagree but love one another. It’s ok to have differing opinions, its not ok to be contentious and if you are repent. How hard is that for us.
Be real with those you can be real with and stick with one another. I think alot of times what ends up happening is we leave a fellowship but don’t stay connected with other believers, that is very important. Continue in fellowship.
Work hard at not becoming cynical, thats a tough one, but in time it runs its course and you can learn to trust again.
Don’t pretend you are a “good Christian”, in other words, if your upset be upset, talk to others you can trust and turn your upsetness to prayer and supplication.
Don’t defend your leaders we are to be true to Him and Him alone. Allow God to correct the wrongs.
OK, so this makes me the most ridiculous person here and I seem to not be able to help myself from saying this:
“fluzzy” is not one of the possible correct spellings for the word floozy.
Here are three:
floosie, floosy, floozie
They all make sense linguistically but fluzzy does not.
Aaaaaaah–I hate myself for that too!
Rhema survivor or any other clf current or former member, would you please contact me at:
mindgames510@gmail.com
THANK YOU
Woops–ignore my comment above. Sorry.
I know some people who attend Dave Bryan’s church and I know some who have left and the word cult always seems to come out of the mouth of those who leave. Typical control issues of the independent churches.
this is an interesting link to their demonic beliefs–I’ve heard they’re totally out in left field in regards to this.
http://www.churchofgladtidings.com/schoolofdeliverance/
[Comment ID #27781 Will Be Quoted Here]
I don’t understand what you mean here by applying 1 Cor. 6:1-8. What would that look like would you give an example.
Thanks
I do not think Dave Bryan is demonic. that might be going a little far
[Comment ID #27802 Will Be Quoted Here]
Just one of those things, it’s ok, we need to learn how to spell.
joebib said
I am reminded of the “old” hate crimes from the South — and believe me, racism still lives in the South — that were prosecuted years later.
Why?
Because it was justice served.
Because it served to prevent future harm to others in the same manner.
Was it just because people talked about the crimes and harm from the past?
No, it served a purpose of protecting people.
My thoughts………………
Former ACC Member:
I’m beginning to wonder if I know you, are we have at least met?
Small world, isn’t it?
Word in Time
As long as Dave Bryan and his whole eldership are the first ones to go through their own deliverance school and then go through deliverance themselves, I think it’s a great idea! They could even offer a personal invite to all MFI pastors and their elders. There are enough strongholds there to keep them busy for the next ten years.
FSO, I think you misunderstood. Mindgames wasn’t saying that Dave was demonic, but that their beliefs about the demonic were “out in left field.” I’ve heard Dave and his wife (her name and heritage escape me at the moment) speak about their experiences with deliverance. I have to agree — it’s pretty far out there.
(anna said: “I’ve heard Dave and his wife (her name and heritage escape me at the moment)….”)
Cheryl née Allen, sister of Steve and granddaughter of A.A.
joebib
[Comment ID #27768 Will Be Quoted Here]
Rhema, I wish to say a few things to you which I hope you receive in love.
I admit, I’m not privy to all the facts in this whole sordid affair, and, thank God, I didn’t have to sit under this junk like you and your family did — I can only imagine what it must have been like to go through all that stuff. And, I recognize that going through these painful situations can make a person somewhat jaded or sensitive. And I’m cool with that, as long as it doesn’t go too far. But, I’m just trying to be honest here, and I’m sorry, but frankly, I still hear unforgiveness and bitterness in the tenor of your comments, and that is what concerns me.
You may remember a saying I posted a while back when we were discussing all this GB stuff, hot and heavy… I said, “When young men cry for judgment, old men plead for mercy.” You may find this hard to believe, and I don’t relish saying it, but, when I was younger, I was one of those young guys screaming for judgment…I was a veritable Christian Nazi…all for judgment, accountability, and stringing up the bad guys. “Those lousy bums, they’ve sinned, now where’s the rocks?!â€
Let me also tell you something I’m not really proud of, but I do so you can see my heart. I also knew GB back in the day, and when I used to talk to him one-on-one, or whenever I heard him speak, I couldn’t help not being able to stand the guy. I thought he was very proud and full of himself and I frankly used to talk bad about him to other of us students, what a blowhard he was, how could EB stand being married to him, and so forth. I mean, I eventually grew to practically despise the guy. Later, when KRI exposed him over the pulpit that Sunday, I couldn’t help but weep for the whole situation, but candidly, in my heart, I thought, “Well, I’m not surprised this guy did that stuff, after all, he’s a bum.â€
Well, some 25 or 30 years have passed, and now that I have, thankfully, mellowed a bit with age — perhaps due to the Lord’s wise plan of having a man’s testosterone start to simmer down a bit in one’s 40s and 50s
— I more and more find myself on the old men’s side, pleading for mercy.
I just can’t get away from thinking more and more about being in the other person’s shoes, you know, the “do unto others” thing? That I ALSO have sinned and done stuff I wouldn’t want repeatedly discussed by a bunch of people that I don’t even know are doing it.
All I’m saying is that I think there is a balance to be had here in regard to the way we deal with the sins of others — certain biblical attitudes that we are to maintain while we are bringing to light what these people did, like humility, compassion, the recognition that we have done scummy (is this even a word?) stuff, too.
I believe we should feel hesitancy in even wanting to bring this stuff up, and it should be done with the utmost discreetness — you know, like this verse says:
“12 For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret.” (Ephesians 5;12, NIV).
I know we need to bring to light what they did, and expose them, but I just don’t think we should relish doing it, nor that we should do it over and over, and that’s the attitude I’m seeing.
-joe
Joebib that was like someone telling rape victims” move on its over I know a lot of you have never talked about it and you needed to get it out, but I don”t want to hear it. I know some scriptures for you that will show how wrong YOU are to dwell on it. Before my teststoserone ebbed i mighthave joined you in exposing rapists, but now because of Gods wisdom i am pleading for mercy.” If it happened to you joe you might not be so generous.
Truth-time and personal experience with being hurt in this ‘spirtual situation’
has shown me when people are deeply wounded shouting at them to
just get over it or saying you are bitter or offended never does any good –nor does it aid in healing.
With mellowing and age shouldn’t there also come wisdom? I agree 100 percent that when you experience some of these things for yourself than you truly have compassion thats necessary.
WE can isolate this one hurt from Gail or look at the whole picture. I started by just asking some more questions here and its amazing the rock it turned over and what slithered underneath.
The whole point is that this did happen years ago yes–but it went on and on and on and on and IT IS STILL GOING ON in one form or another. That is what this blog is about Joe. Their system of putting people down is still happening and we have people DAILY calling us for help or mercy and thats here in
southern IDAHO–not even up there at the epicenter.
Its a perverted philosophy –or doctrine that says the leaders are truly
better than the people and can somehow get away with treating them badly
and if you think it stopped ‘way back in the day’ than you apparantly have no
friends still attending there.
We do and we are serious about getting them out and stopping the madness.
Hope it helps paint the picture for those who haven’t gotten the reason
for all of this yet. As they said on Flight 93—’LET’S ROLL’
finally getting answers: I couldn’t agree more. What is going on in Idaho? I believe Idaho is where this whole Bryan thing started so you might be closer to the epicenter than you think! I’m so sorry to hear this is happening to you and others down there.
I am interpreting a few of you insinuating the Mark and Dave Bryan are involved in sexual sins as their father was. That is DISGUSTING of you to do so.
Put up proof or shut up.
Joe BS
Who are YOU really?
I couldn’t help but weep for the whole situation, (but candidly),( in my heart), I thought, “Well, I’m not surprised this guy did that stuff, after all, he’s a bum.â€
Sounds to me like your out of your freaking mind.
Who are you trying to fool besides YOURSELF? LOL
Well, some 25 or 30 years have passed, and now that I have, thankfully, mellowed a bit with age — perhaps due to the Lord’s wise plan of having a man’s testosterone start to simmer down a bit in one’s 40s and 50s — I more and more find myself on the old men’s side, pleading for mercy.
SOUNDS LIKE YOUR RUNNING SCARED…. WHAT’S THE MATTER JOE YOUR SKELITONS MAKING TO MUCH NOISE IN YOUR CLOSET….LOL
WHAT CHA GONNA DO WHEN THEY COME FOR YOU JOE BIB JOE BIB
LOL
living life–i can’t speak for others–but you are interpreting the info here wrong
I believe-I don’t read it that way at all that the sons are doing the same thing.
Man….take a breath and re-read the messages on here.
However maybe what is being said is there is a root here not dealt with and whether the abuse comes out in a sexual form or in extremely controlling churchs –the point is there is something wrong here-
Houston we have a problem.
The people we are helping here in Idaho come out of Dave’s church in
Boise–lets just say churches have had to devote classes to heal them.
No not fringe players–we’re talking people in leadership positions–of course
they all have to be there working -working- working- many nights a week–joining a small group is not optional and this is just the beginning.
Did I talk about the “Youth Compound” yet –maybe later.
I have to be careful who I expose with their stories now–but suffice to say –strangeness–wierdness- Global Domination–sorry maybe that was a bit extreme–but for Joe–why are these people so completely messed up to the core when they leave or rather escape? Just asking.
FINALLY GETTING ANSWERS IS THIS THE DAVID BRYAN YOUR SPEAKING OF?
http://www.churchofgladtidings.com/community/staff.cfm
FINALLY GETTING ANSWERS, IS THIS THE MARK BRYAN YOU ARE SPEAKING OF?
http://www.coharvest.org/info/leadership/
Alll of us who sat under the teaching of Gail Bryan have been damaged in one way or another including his wife and kids.His view of women, church coverups ,the fear God is going to get us with a club etc.It is just a reief to be able to talk about it after all these years of wondering if it was our fault.Is god going to get us if we talk about it. If the abuse is being carried on, we have an obligation to tell others so hopefully it will not happen to them. If we forget the past we are doomed to repeat it.
Dear joebib: After reading your last comment I’d like to say that we really are alot alike and are quite opposite at the same time. You say that many years ago you couldn’t stand Gail Bryan and thought he was very proud and full of himself. You said that when you were younger you were one of those guys screaming for judgement, accountability and stringing up the bad guys.
Many years ago I belived Pastor Bryan and his family were wonderful! I wanted to follow christ just like they did so I could have the wonderful christian marriage, home and children like they did. When I was younger I was very quiet, shy and submissive. It was very easy for me to just absorb this new christian life like a sponge. I was so happy to be saved and going to church. I loved reading my bible, listening to bible temple tapes all the time and trying to learn everything I could so I could be a better wife, and mother. After awhile though I started to suffer from a lot of anxiety after I’d gone to church everytime the doors were open, taken every class, gotten rid of Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Christmas Tree, the television, white flour, sugar, quit wearing jeans, stayed away from all my unsaved friends, kept my kids away from unsaved kids etc. etc. etc.! I attended housekeeping classes, learned how to make bread, stored wheat, water, honey, salt, powdered milk for the rapture and learned how to beat the hell out of my kids using a bamboo rod, a wooden spoon, a paint stick or anything else the other mothers were coming up with to “disipline”(abuse) their children. Meanwhile I had an unsaved husband that was usually gone evey weekend partying and sleeping with multiple women. I counseled with the Bryans about my marriage on several occasions. Mr. Bryan said he couldn’t speak to my husband because he wasn’t a member of his church and left me to council with Eunice. One weekend after he’d slept with three different women Eunice told me I did have grounds for a divorce but I would just end up on welfare trying to raise my kids by myself since it would not be permitted for me to remarry. So her advice was since my husband wasn’t bringing the booze, drugs, or women into the home I should just stay and create a christian atmosphere as best as I could. Shortly after that I began having full blown panic attacks and various other physical problems always diagnosed as stress related. I found that I just could not keep it all together like the Bryans and the some of the elders that were held up for us to follow. I tried. I really did. And I did it all with a meek and quiet spirit too! I finally got to the point I just couldn’t do it anymore. I didn’t even want to get out of bed because I knew I was going to screw up and sin again. All those rules! All those standards! After ending up in counseling with someone outside the church (God forbid) I began to see what a bunch of bullshit I had bought into. So you see joe when you were younger you screamed for judgement, accountability and stringing up the bad guys. I was submissive, quiet, and full of mercy. We’ve just traded places that’s all!
I don’t understand why you guys keep trying to reason with Joe BS. He is a product of Bible Temple- city Church or what ever they might change their name to. They can keep changing their name but until they change their core teaching they will keep pumping out preachers teacher and believer’s with STINKIN THINKIN.
I too had an unfaithful husband only he pretended to be a christian. And after I poured my heart out to Eunice, she told me that I needed to be willing to let my husband fail, and just stay home and rock the babies. I was to be like Sarah, Abraham’s wife and let God deal with my husband. What happened is that when cornered –I knew that I either went down or came out fighting. Well, I came out fighting and went to jail for Simple Assault against my husband. Two different pastors visited with me in jail and it meant so very much to me. When I got out of jail, I counceled with someone from outside the church also. I learned that Eunice meant well and that she was living out her own advise to me. But it was not Godly advise. I eventually divorced my husband and faced my greatest fear (a single mother with children). The year was 1990. Today, God has restored what the worm hath eaten and the years that the Locust destroyed. However, I do pray that God has Mercy on Gail Bryan’s soul. And I pray for salvation, and the gift of repentance for my ex-husband. Time is running out. I believe the Lord is about to return. And I am watching for His return.
Rhema;
Thank you for opening up about your past. It’s good to hear a side of you I wasn’t familiar with.
It’s so easy on a site like this to keep it shallow and cynical, just throwing out the smart-aleck retorts, the witty one-liners, a occasional dis here, and a jab there, and keep one’s self safe within the virtual anonymity of the blogosphere.
I know how painful it can be, and how vulnerable it can make one feel to lay their heart bare — which if you’ve followed any of my previous posts, you will see that I also have opened up about some of the stuff I have gone through back during my associations with BT, as well. It’s always a dicey thing to bare one’s soul, and sometimes even downright dangerous, too…you may have noticed the mockery when I did the same
Yes, I suppose we are somewhat alike, and you do remind me of myself, in that I also was so anxious to please my “superiors.†I had also tossed out the Christmas tree, quit hanging out with my unsaved friends, and adjusted the way I dressed. Apparently, a lot of us did! I suppose we were all somehow trying to please God, or placate His implied disapproval, through attempting to please “them.”
After many years, I was finally able to, thank God, free myself from the subtle condemnation I was allowing myself to come under, and begin to live a true Christianity.
I don’t know where you are now in the process of where God is trying to take you, but I do know he WILL ultimately see you through. You might already be aware of this verse, but if I may, I would like to quote a Scripture which has helped me immensely:
“For I know the plans that I have for you,’ declares the LORD, ‘plans for welfare and not for calamity, to give you a future and a hope.” (Jeremiah 29:11, NASB)
joe
anna litical said: i don’t understand what you mean here by applying 1 Cor. 6:1-8. What would that look like would you give an example.
anna: (great aka, by the way!) All I meant was that Paul the apostle exhorted the Corinthians to handle their community disputes amongst themselves rather than going to lawyers and courtrooms outside of the churches. I was just saying that instead of “whoever” from the MFI getting a lawyer involved in trying to defend and re-instate Doug Cotton, it would have been more biblical to have the church solve their own problems internally. Does that help?
BTW, if Doug Cotton, or any other MFI member is removed from their pastorate, it means that the MFI budget does not receive the payment of their monthly dues. Could money have something to do with the MFI rep’s hiring a lawyer in this case?
It’s so hypocritical to me to hear local church pastor/leaders scream: “The local church is to be self-supporting, self-governing, and self-propogating!” when it suits their fancy, but as soon as it does not, then they violate their own long-held principles by fund-raising outside of their local church, interfering with other congregation’s input on their own pastor, etc.
I think it’s interesting that the spokesperson for The City Church is an attorney.
Why does a church require an attorney on staff?
reforming heathen wrote: why does a church require an attorney on staff?
reforming heathen: i think that you asked a superb question here! the question, however, to me, should not be just why on staff but also why public spokesman? i don’t know how often the attorney “speaks” for the city church, but it might be regularly – as part of his job description, of course! in my view, it’s obvious that the reason is because the city church does not want to say or do anything in the public view that could ever be used against the city church. it’s to protect its public image at all costs, and, of course, to protect its millions of dollars in assets from ever being successfully sued by anyone. staff people are probably told not to say anything “publicly” unless they run it by their chuch attorney first; if true, this will make the atmosphere very stale, formal and guarded. not my idea of true community! also, wendell and his staff can always say, “Just talk to our attorney…” whenever they want to stay out of the hot seat!
in one sense, if one is going to grow a large denominational empire, having an attorney/public spokesman on staff is very smart; on the other hand, it could signal that there’s a lot going on behind scenes that the city church just doesn’t want to take any chances for others to discover. can you imagine Jesus hiring an attorney, making him a part of the Twelve and telling him that it would be his job to “answer” all questions addressed to the group? that would be laughable.
So what do the attorneys do for the non-family staff?
soapbox for cutiepie said: so what do the attorneys do for the non-family staff?
soapbox…if i understand you correctly, and if your question is a serious one, the attorney protects the entire church corporation, which, in all likelihood is a 501c3, and is liable to being sued from the misconduct of any of its staff members, whether they are of the Smith bloodline or not…
[Comment ID #27939 Will Be Quoted Here]
David,
Thanks for answering and yes my question is serious, yet not without a hint of sarcasm. How does the attorney remain impartial unless he doesn’t attend the church? If he does, given the church’s rather controlling environment I’ve been reading about, how would he be able to act in the interest of a non-family staff member if that person had grievances?
Soapbox for Cutiepie: Great point. I’m sorry I didn’t catch that at first.
[Comment ID #27940 Will Be Quoted Here]
If a staff member has grievances against the church the church’s attorney can’t represent the staff member because it creates a conflict of interest. The attorney would be representing the church. The staff member has to go get their own attorney.
And on we go…….its cheaper to just slink away and lick your wounds
of course once you’re on the outside of the compound looking in you
realize ‘HEY I’M THE FREE ONE’
There is a big aritcle in the Aberdeen daily world about a new church being “planted” in Aberdeen by City Business Church.
http://www.thedailyworld.com/articles/2007/08/17/local_news/03news.txt
Actually, that’s pretty funny.
Didn’t know JP and Cat were branching out. Gives new meaning to MFI ~ “Morton Fellowship International” … heh …
hahahaha… awesome!
[Comment ID #27950 Will Be Quoted Here]
The only thing that I can see that is False is the word business. And I’m sure how false that statement is. So how to you figure it was 99% false?
The article says:
Doug Cotton to help ‘plant’ new church on the Harbor.
The article also says that city church is funding it.
That is 99% false? lol you must have meant 99% true.
When I was a kid, I almost poked Doug Cotton’s eye out with a dart. I was being stupid and careless, but he didn’t kick my butt. So his “anger problem” can’t be all that bad, especially with Lois to ground him. His daughters love him dearly as well, so he can’t be all bad. Now, Mark Driscoll, THERE is a pastor with a passionate temper!
Rhema survivor, I can attest to the truth of your words (as insane as they seem) as a matter of historical FACT, and I’m glad you are speaking about this way to common situation. There are many who use the church as instruments of personal power. But if Doug is guilty of this it should not be that much more than your average nondenominational pastor.
As a “survivor” of Rhema, CLF, Cornerstone, and Christianity in general, I resent how Doug is being tied together with Gail Bryan and Rod Hill. Cotton kept his pecker in his pants, and did not use his position and authority to get laid. That should count for something.
Sure, there are problems and control issues with all of them, and with their basic doctrine. A “Biblical” system of governance does not provide for checks and balances, error correction, or sexual and social equality. Those who read the Bible as final, inerrant and infallible tend to attribute to God that which is most definitely MAN (patriarchal and hierarchal) or simply natural chaos.
Although “non-denominational” churches try to avoid these pitfalls, they rarely seem to succeed. I wish them luck, but think the problem is with their fundamentalist beliefs and not with the implementation details or the personality defects of those in leadership.
I could be wrong, though.
For extreme examples (and with DEFINITE correlations to Bible Temple, Rhema, and other hyper controlling churches), see what the “Children of God” survivors have to say:
http://www.movingon.org/default.asp
[Comment ID #27946 Will Be Quoted Here]
So true–much cheaper. and simpler.
once you leave you have to ask yourself ‘why the heck did i stay there so long??’
As for freedom, I still get euphoric when i realize how free i really am of that whole cloistered control freak world. sigh. life is good. finally.
Samaritan said:
hehe! good one!
Locutus said:
So wouldn’t it be a conflict of interest if the attorney and his/her family attends the church if hired by the church? It’d be interesting to know if City Church employs an attorney that is a member there.
Just for the record (since there are a lot of mars hillers on this blog), Mark is quite repentant about his past harshness, and though we could poke holes into his ministry too – at least he has some humility and interprets Scripture fairly.
Out of curiosity, have you ever attended a service or heard a sermon? I’m not a member, but have been several times and I have never heard anything abusive or untempered.
“So wouldn’t it be a conflict of interest if the attorney and his/her family attends the church if hired by the church?”
No.
[Comment ID #27899 Will Be Quoted Here]
Thanks for claification, I understand and agree.
[Comment ID #27984 Will Be Quoted Here]
Calvin, I believe you are wrong. You seem to believe that there is a sliding scale here — that is, Doug Cotton really isn’t as bad as other pastors.
DC was not asked to resign simply over one outburst of anger. Instead, according to more than a dozen eyewitnesses, he demonstrated a consistent pattern of controlling behavior, anger, lying, manipulation, inappropriate sexual comments, financial mismanagement, and verbal and physical abuse.
This is not about how DC did not measure up to a fundamentalist’s interpretation of the Bible. It is about a simple employment situation. If anyone, including DC, exhibited this type of behavior anywhere, including but not limited to a church, he or she would be asked to leave.
DC may have changed in the past year. If this is true, though, any new-found humility did not show in his recent City Church sermon on “The God of the Breakthrough.”
My impression is that DC’s return to Grays Harbor is a blatant attempt to reclaim a part of what used to be his. If DC really cared about Grays Harbor, the best thing he could do is stay away. Local churches have been fine without him around for the past year.
His decision to come back has opened old wounds that he inflicted on others through the years. Perhaps his return is a reminder to Christians in Grays Harbor (and everywhere else) that we should always defend ourselves against all kinds of abuse done in the name of God.
It looks like the elders at clf were able to defend themselves ( not without quite a battle though!) They had position and authority. In most of the churches I’ve gone to where this type of abuse goes on the pastor is smart enough not to pull stuff on his own eldership ( they’re usually yes men anyway.) It’s kind of like domestic violence; it usually goes on behind closed doors. Abusers know what they are doing. Tiresias you say that Christians should always defend themselves against all kinds of abuse done in the name of God. I believe that many of us here on this blog have been doing exactly that. But it is usually done one at a time without the support of an eldership or any of your fellow christians for that matter. What power do we have? The only thing we can do is quietly leave, ( so we don’t cause discord) and no one really gives a damn enough to ask why. These leaders leave one body and go to another and no one seems to give a damn about that either. United we stand, Divided we fall.
[Comment ID #28007 Will Be Quoted Here]
Oh trust me; I’m an insider!
I went to Mars Hill for a few years, back when it was a couple of hundred people, tops. I was heavily involved in the community, right there from the start. They were a very special group of people, and I hold them no will, Mark included. But I definitely know what I’m talking about. Mark is a passionate person, and he can be very intense. But I’m not badmouthing him or his community.
I was there for the first CLF Sunday ever, after the “re-union”. I was quite young, but I still remember the cheesy freakin’ BANNERS everyone was all hot over. Sigh…the CLF folk might not have been very hip, but they were very loving, and people did care for each other. Doug Cotton (and Backholm, for that matter) was a good pastor and father, I can directly attest to this.
FUTHERMORE, Rick Moyer, the new CLF interim pastor, was friends with my Dad. Rick is one of the most gentle, unassuming and genuine people you will ever meet. CLF is getting a good deal there, and I hope they make him permanent!
And now Doug is forming a new church, since his old one booted him out. As Elmer said, we should wish him well. I understand that CLF might split, but that should have been apparent the moment they got rid of Doug.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m privy to the amazing amounts of bullshit here. Pastors and elders manipulate their congregations. I saw this happen at CLF, Mars Hill, and every single other church I’ve ever been to. ( I’ve also seen the CLF congregation really do a number on it’s leaders! )
I’ve also been taught the earth is 6,000 years old, and that the white american has a “manifest destiny”. I’ve been taught that the Bible is the ultimate authority in all ways, and have directly seen the harm that comes from this.
I’ve been exposed to Word of Faith doctrine, I find it repulsive. In fact, when my mother was dying of cancer my family refused to believe it was happening. This made things all that much worse when it finally got her.
Fight the ignorance, not the ignorant. Seriously; life is to short to demonize Doug, Mark, or whoever. The primary problem is simply bad memes.
[Comment ID #28015 Will Be Quoted Here]
I certainly can’t directly argue with you here. Like I said, I left organized religion ages ago, so I haven’t been to CLF in years (my brother’s wedding was the last time, I think). What you say about Doug may or may not be true, but I have had no experience with that.
Indeed, if Doug is as bad as you say, then you should not be worried about loosing to many people. Who would follow a leader like that for long?
But I have a feeling the truth is much more complicated, and the actions of both Doug AND the elders will lead to another split.
High ho, here we go again!
calvin: it sounds like you are another one that unless Doug did something directly to you you have a hard time believing what others have experienced. You sound a little double minded to me. But of course that is what always happens in these situattions. That is why there is such division between members. People are either not given enough information to rightly judge or they don’t want to know what really happened. They run everything through the grid of their own experiences with these power types. Abusers always behave one way in private and another way in public. It just depends on what side of them you end up on. Until we as the people of God get real and demand to know the truth so we can rightly judge this is just going to continue. It’s like being in a family where one of the members is being molested in secret. When they finally get the courage to tell and no one believes them you’ve got another problem. The ones that were molested were “groomed” and the other members of the family were “groomed” also. I don’t think people get that. That’s why members begin to turn on each other and we end up in splits. How many splits are we surrounded by in this community? There will never be unity in the body of Christ until these things are righty judged and the truth is made known to everyone.
[Comment ID #28009 Will Be Quoted Here]
why not?
We can leave quietly speaking out
[Comment ID #28032 Will Be Quoted Here]
I suppose someone could quietly inform the members od Harbor City Church of the past allegations and let them decide whether they want to attend a church run by a person who has those allegations against them.
[Comment ID #28031 Will Be Quoted Here]
A conflict of interest occurs when (1) the representation of one client will be at odds with the representation of another or (2) there is a significant risk that the representation of the client will be materially limited by the lawyer’s responsibilities to someone else. His being on the payroll and/or attending the church does not give him any responsibilities that are at odds with that of his client (The City Church).
It appears that you are concerned that the attorney is too close to the situation to be objective. To me, thats a legitimate concern. From the church’s perspective, they probably appreciate his representation even more so if he never questions anything his client tells him. An attorney must advocate for their client’s interests, but should maintain objectivity so he/she can avoid allowing the client’s passions get in the way of their best interest. At the point the client’s passions become the attorney’s passions, there could be a real problem. If he has lost his objectivity, I think that will make him a much worse attorney. But I’m sure the church loves it–for now.
Most, if not all of them already know the ‘allegations’, and really don’t give a rip. It makes them feel more comfortable in their own sins if they have an unrepentant sinner for a pastor–one who can charismatically give an entertaining and ear tickling topical sermon that is utterly useless for walking a walk worthy of the Calling.
He can go easy on them because he has his own issues…so he can overlook biblical preaching based on teaching, correction, training in favor of trying to motivate his followers by badgering and guilt inducing to give time, talents and treasures to further his (actually, now Wendell’s) kingdom…
I absolutely agree with you on this!
It’s a co-dependancy where both parties will never point out the sins of the other party, in exchange for that person never pointing out THEIR sins!
It’s just a big pleasure cruise down the river of DENIAL!
DOC said:
Thanks DOC, this is what I was wondering about. So the attorney wouldn’t have a legal conflict of interest but could have a moral one depending on the circumstances, which should be a consideration, even if the church needs to run itself like a business.
Reforming Heathen said:
It’s just a big pleasure cruise down the river of DENIAL!
LOL… Lets not forget who is rowing the boat, while the captain and his marry men are in the cabin counting the coins…
I once heard it called a codependent free fall. lol Seriously we should still let the truth be known. and call things as they are.
I can see why the ( heathens) aren’t ripping the roofs off churches to get in…lol
At least when I was sitting on a bar stool I knew what I was dealing with. I was sure shocked to find out church was full of dry drunks, and a bunch of phonies afraid of getting found out.
and be forewarned… if you get to close to their secret they really freak out…lol
Why is it so hard for church to get real? After all the Good News is- We all stink! But we are forgiven! I want to celebrate,
not play games.
How can the Lord heal anyone if they wont admit they are sick. or screwed up? We’ve been set free!!! Quit trying to shut us up again. God doesnt have any favorites, so get off your high horse.
Rhema survivor said:
(Until we as the people of God get real and demand to know the truth so we can rightly judge this is just going to continue.)
I totally agree! Your right on the money. Most people in churches think they have arrived at a place of safety and they can’t bare to look at the truth.
We are in a battle guys lets not for get that. but lets not take out our own with friendly fire either.
I suppose if the Daily World printed all the allegations against DC, matters would be quite different.
Behind the very real surface of anger issues lies money squandering on a scandalous scale and enough sexual harrassment and inappropriate comments to choke a horse. He would defend his frequent sexual comments as “transparency”–”I’m just saying what you’re all thinking.”
Jesus said that if you think these sins in your heart you are as guilty as if you actually committed them. We have to repent of the sins in our hearts. Hungry on the Harbor hit the nail on the head by saying people feel more comfortable around an unrepentant pastor because they themselves have not repented of their own sins.
I myself have benefited from this whole DC mess, because I have been forced to examine my own heart and see how depraved my own condition was and is. This has made me more humble and grateful that I get to be included in the Lamb’s Book of Life. I am chosen by God’s grace to live a holy life, and I live this by His gracious enabling power, not my own power. We are all in need of God’s grace to daily repent of the sins of our hearts and to trust Christ to be our righteousness and transform us into His image.
My prayer is that DC with “fall on the rock” and be broken instead of the rock falling on and crushing him (Matthew 21:44).
P.S. Reformed Pope has mentioned John Piper. Boy, has his teachings helped me. Go the DesiringGod.org and browse.
Getting Reformed said: Behind the very real surface of anger issues lies money squandering on a scandalous scale and enough sexual harrassment and inappropriate comments to choke a horse.
GP: Can you produce evidence of these serious allegations? What is “money squandering?” (wasting the church’s monies?) If “sexual harrassment,” did any of the women of the congregation speak up? If true, it sounds like the law could have become involved. Was the law ever contacted?
Was the law ever contacted when Gail Bryan and Rod Hill were having their way with the women in their congregations? You’ve got to be kidding right?
What criminal law was broken… it sounds as if all were consenting adults
You are right on living life. When Gail Bryan had sex with 20 to 30 women in 5 different churches it was between consenting adults and the church had no business removing him from office. Bible Temple saw through this abuse of an MFI pastor and sent him back out to do God’s work. Same with Doug Cotton. So he came on to a few women, verbally assaulted others and attacked another. A hoquiam teacher had sex with a consenting adult and–wait I can’t use that , he was sentenced to 5 months for abuse of power.
Do you really think God can stand up against MFI or Bible Temple? These organizations have lawyers, money and power. Thirty years ago none of us spoke out and look how strong the church has become. I must now put my prayer blanket down and pray to the South and Bible Temple.
David Mackin,
These allegations were documented in the eighty-some pages of written testimonies available to CLF members to read last year. “Money squandering” refers to consistently spending much more than budgeted. “Sexual harrassment” is my term to describe what some women wrote about in those documents; perhaps the term “sexual harrassment” implies some legal definition, don’t know. The “speaking up” happened in those documents and during the time DC was gone on sabbatical. Please understand there was an atmosphere of intimidation and control in which anyone who might speak up could be verbally blasted and distanced from others through suspicion or defamation. I am not aware of anyone contacting the law. From my viewpoint I could understand those individuals not wanting to have to publically defend themselves and risk being totally destroyed.
Sounds like the old Rhema fellowship. If you asked questions you were shunned by the (saints). I’ve been distanced from others for the last 25 years. It’s great. Thank God Gail,doug and the others didn’t make me go to hell for questioning the wierd sex sermons like they hinted at.
Getting Reformed: Thank you for the update and information.
Getting Reformed said: These allegations were documented in the eighty-some pages of written testimonies available to CLF members to read last year.
GR: Do you know if anyone made a photocopy of this document before it became unavailable? If so, I’m sure that a lot of us would like to get a copy of it.
Finally Speaking Out said:
Reminds me of the Titanic when they said ‘Even God himself can’t sink this ship’. God’s sense of timing IS a bit frustrating and I can relate to your feelings, FSO. For some reason today I can see the whole thing caving in eventually. This break in the clouds only happens every so often though.
Thing is MFI leadership thinks God is in their particular corner. But God, who is in all his children’s corners is up to something that I’m sure none of the MFI-ers would even be interested in. He is rewriting the hearts of those who got off their ship in time. I can hardly read the Bible anymore because of their spin on things echoing in my mind. It’s like my whole Christian walk has had to be disassembled to be reassembled… I have a feeling that eventually I will read the Bible with no echoes at all. But like I said, today is a day I can believe for impossibilities. No matter what though, the best thing I could have ever done is to leave an MFI church. If I’ve had to start over so be it. No more meetings, no more praying to the N, S, E and W, no more singing about the N, S, E, and W. No more mind control. Yeah!
Gads, even the thought of still being there makes my skin crawl.
Soapbox i was kidding. It takes a while to get over it. What helped me was knowing that god had not done it to me and still loved me. I finally gave all my trust to him and not the church. finances everthing.From then on it has been great.I read mathew 6:30 and Matthew 6:25 everynight before bed if it helps. We went to church thinking other people had it together and we would learn from them. we put our trust in man and not god. He never stops being loyal.
When i say ” not the curch” i mean not the buildings. The real church are the believers. I dare to say some of the pastors have stopped being part of the church BECAUSE of the building that justifies their paycheck. Face it, where are they going to find another job that pays so well.
David Mackin,
Haven’t heard but I bet someone made copies. But if those 19(?) witnesses’ names are out in public with their allegations, I fear for retribution.
David Mackin said:
August 22nd, 2007 at 11:52 am
I wanted to repeat this post in this section, too:
RE-WRITE YOUR CHURCH CONSTITUION AND BY-LAWS!
David Mackin
What Crap!
If they don’t get a pay check maybe they will cut the crap! Laws, by laws, church constitution. Give me a brake! Kick the bastards to the curb that don’t cut the mustard…. I’m sick of reading this shit… When are you chickens going to stand up for yourselves and stop being victims?
living life: What criminal law was broken at clf? Weren’t they all consenting adults too? Like I said until the church has a basic understanding of spiritual abuse, sexual predators, domestic violence, etc, etc these men in positions of power will continue. living lifes attitude is classic in these situations. We risk the chance of being killed by friendly fire everytime we speak out against it!
[Comment ID #28098 Will Be Quoted Here]
Did you have an audit done?
If so, did it confirm the mishandling of the money?
If not, shouldn’t you have an audit done?
Word
Constitution, bylaws.walking laws,smoking laws , predator laws. people are going to jaywalk,smoke too close to a building,rape kids etc. enough laws .If a pastor is bad kick him out.(Oh that’s right they did but mfi put him in another church) we have enough laws when a local church disciplines their pastor seattle needs to honor them and what they know of the situation. get real bs like that is why people can not stand to be around religious people.( didn’t say around christians in general just the pharisees
living life: I know of a woman (well above the age of consent) who had sex with her counselor. She retained an attorney. The counselor settled out of court so he wouldn’t lose his license. She now gets quite a bit of money every month to pay for any damages he caused! Come on church get out of the dark ages!
The confusion here is that eveything concerning the clf scandal was made public except the “eighty some pages of written testimonies.” Regardless of who contacted who, Rick Moyer, Dan Gebhart and whoever else was interviewed chose to give information to the public. Why? What was the purpose.? I believe the public was involved when it was to their advantage to do so and now that it is not, no one is talking. Makes me wonder……. Even if the testimonies aren’t made public I believe people have a right to know what the general charges are so they can make an informed decision as to whether they would be in support of CLFs actions against Doug Cotton or whether the charges did indeed warrent the dismissal of Doug Cotton. As far as the legalities go I’m not a lawyer but I didn’t see anyone caring if Doug Cottons name was exposed to the public.
I was wondering if the eldership had sought the daily world out for some kind of bibilical solution to their problem ie. Matthew 18 and if they won’t hear the church take it to the “world”. Apparently the chruch exposed it through this blog.
It IS a small town but we still don’t know exactly what Doug Cotton has been accused of. I don’t know why an interview was given that’s why I asked the question. By unintentionally do you mean something like “Wow! Was that a reporter from the Daily World I was just talking to?” I’m not wanting to make assumptions, I would like to know if Rick Moyer and Dan Gebhart or others that were quoted in the paper talked directly to reporters or reporters used their names without talking to them directly.
[Comment ID #28128 Will Be Quoted Here]
Is this the part of Matthew 18 you were referring to?
Oh, sorry. I wasn’t going to post here anymore.
[Comment ID #28110 Will Be Quoted Here]
Allegations of criminal abuse included:
1. Sexual harassment in the workplace.
2. Criminal assault on a staff member.
Why the police were not contacted I do not know.
Now you have to come back and read what was said to your post, shame on you for violating your own conscience.
No the part I was thinking of was where you go to the other one on one, if that doesn’t solve take unbiased witnesses, and if that doesn’t work take it to the church and if that didn’t work treating them as a tax collector or unbeliever. And I think applying Galatians 6:1 to our hearts is a must in the process.
I’m hoping the purpose of all of this is to see some restoration on the Harbor, not just with CLF and their congregation but with others who have been ill treated by “apostalic ministries.”
One of the things I noted in the letter that DC wrote to his congregation was that he was accountable to the “apostolic oversight”. Sometimes that means they are accountable to them and them alone. The pastors feel they have little accountability to the body of Christ or to the other leadership in the body and that is wrong. This is a fact, there is a good old boys system out there that needs to be addressed.
MFI is not helping Doug nor his family, nor CLF. Besides that MFI was out of their jurisdiction when they stepped in the correction process. So now we have yet another church starting up in the Harbor with little being resolved with this issue. How has Doug been restored, where is the love in that. Don’t you think it would have been best to see Doug restored as a person, not just a pastor!! Oh the position was taken away, what, who cares! Isn’t there other competent leadership in that body that can take care of things for a season. I believe there is, Christ being one.
It seems to me with MFI stepping in they have now thwarted the process that needed to take place in Dougs life to see healing brought into his life, to see him restored to his brothers and sisters at CLF! That is the love of God!
Dan Wood: Doug Cottons actions are forgiveable. They should be forgiven, we all know that. People are getting tired of MFI repeatedly putting abusive Pastors back in these same positions likely to reoffend again. History has shown that they do. Especially when there is a cover-up and no one in the new church knows what they’ve done or that they have a history of these types of behaviors. When I went to work for the Aberdeen School District I had to go down to the police station and have a background check done. If I was a pervert do you think it would be unforgiving of the school district not to hire me? If they did and kids parents got wind of it would you say they were unforgiving and bitter and all the other religious terms you guys use to keep people afraid of asking questions? Get Real! Christians are getting tired of Pastors abusing them and the person sitting next to them in the pew supporting it! It’s not just the pastor that is the problem here. It is the whole sick, religious system that supports him and I believe people like you are part of it. That’s why most people in churches just quietly leave when these things happen to them. If anyone ever does stand up against it and then look around they are usually standing alone. There are too many people wanting to rub shoulders with the pastor and his wife and climbing their own little ladder of sucess to care about what is happening to the person sitting next to them. The little people are getting fed up Dan Wood. Gods kingdom is a backwords kingdom.
I read Dan Woods article on forgiveness and it was right on. I had a neighbor years ago that molested his daughter. She told only me and went to him in love and forgave him. He did it again to the youngest and she confronted him with a witness (me) When he molested his son a few years later we went to him again(not broadcasting it all over the airwaves like a lot of you nor did we go the the police so as not ty bring shame on their house) Wll to make a long story short,IT WORKED. they have been together 30 years now. Of course they don,t see much of the kids. Keep it up Dan we think the same. God bless
[Comment ID #28145 Will Be Quoted Here]
Are you KIDDING me?? That’s the dumbest thing i’ve ever heard! If proper boundaries and speaking out had have taken place when the first daughter came to you, then the second daughter and the son wouldn’t have been molested too. Forgiveness doesn’t mean letting the boundar-less predators go free to continue a lifestyle of abuse. You should have contacted the police the first time so he could have been locked up the first time. The daughter could then forgive him while he did time for assault against her. !!!!!
soapbox for cutiepie: I believe Mark 9:42 WAS kidding. That’s why it should make Dan Woods comment the dumbest thing you’ve ever heard .
[Comment ID #28149 Will Be Quoted Here]
oh. that’s a relief. guess i don’t know who mark 9:42 is or haven’t read up enough to know he’d be kidding. thanks RS.
Dan simply quoted a section of Matthew 18 in a way he believed to be relevant. If you think it does not apply to this situation, let us know. If you think there is a section of scripture that more appropriately applies to these facts, please enlighten us. But someone’s obvious desire to rely on scripture for guidance should never be referred to as “dumb”. This appears to me be the point at which truth and love have parted ways.
The wise in heart will be called understanding, and sweetness of speech increases persuasiveness. (Prov 16:21)
God i miss going to church to listen to people like Doc talk. It”s like being back with old king james. For gods sake don”t ever carry on a comman sense conversation, it would take a lot of comedy out of the world.prov 26:12
[Comment ID #28157 Will Be Quoted Here]
Easy, Mark. No problem with common sense conversations. I just think that its a good idea to respond to the argument, not the person, when someone suggests that our behavior is contrary to scripture. In fact, the instinct to attack the person and not address the issue is precisely what many on this blog are fed up with. Lets be consistent.
If you didn’t like my sentence structure, I apologize.
I apologize too Doc but most people don,t want to address the issues. They are afraid they are talking about a man of God or the church. These horrible preachers count on that. No one has spoken out in years, just kept quiet and matters have become worse. If a lot of the things going on by pastors was outside the church we would be outraged, but we seem to give pastors a pass.These people are supposed to be our servants , the most humble and godly of us all. We need to stop being afraid and act like true warriors of god instead of the gutless wonders WE have been the last 30 yrs.
[Comment ID #28157 Will Be Quoted Here]
hehe.
ok getting to know the voice of mark9:32 now (i thought you were for real in your forgive the child molesting father a few posts back)
but guess i’m gonna have to look up a few scriptures on biblegateway though
I can remember a sermon DC gave at clf “You people need to have fun,losen up. How many of you went gocating wednesday? You were there Jerry and you frank, there were twelve of us. Last week we went to waterwaves. come on god wants us to have fun.) At the time i was logging on matheney ridge. Up at 5 am home at 7 pm bed at ten. Idiots like that wouldn’t get it if you went before them with twenty brothers. Case in point clf elders. Results: Dc starts new church with 100 families that don,t care. You think DC is afraid of God? I don,t
What has happened to US men? When we were kids we wanted to be a sheriff to stop the bad men or aknight to save fair damsel later when first saved it was to serve god, do right root out sin. Now all that is politically incorrect we are to be sensitive and feminized(which is fine for a woman but not men)We need to become men again and hold pastors who have forgotten their calling accountable. We pay their salarys if they are poor employees, fire them.Mighty men of God are a thing of the past, but they don.t have to be. Dare to be outraged atpastor abuse, dare to speak out. Otherwise the church will stay the same., our own little club where the unsaved ant nothing to do with us. safe yes, but boring. To clarify above dc wanted us to join him the following wednesday
Why does this seem to get back to non forgiveness. This has nothing to do with not forgiving. This is a forum for addressing real problems that haven’t gone away, and keep repeating themselves. I think people are fed up with a religous system that has caused damage to the body of Christ and needs to be aired.
These are all MFI churches. One person commented that this blog caused discord. The discord already exsists. You are never going to see anything delt with or set straight until the problems are brought out in the open.
I have to admit I was one who left quietly. We didn’t talk, we worked very hard not to “defile” anyone with our view of what took place in the chruch we attended, for many years. We quietly slipped out and went to another church (we did not want to hurt anyone in that congregation). Within two months of attending this new church we thought was going to be so different and wonderful from the one we attended it split!
That was the Rod Hill thing. We liked Rod and his wife, they were one of the draws that took us to that church because him and his wife seemed like such great people, and they were in many ways, we just didn’t know them very well. However others did and allowed them into the pulpit knowing his past from what I recall. Again it was all about looks and chrisma. They brought people in, they were gifted.
That was just the beginning of six years of religous hell. I must admit I learned alot. See I am being reformed too. Just too bad the religous hell had to reform me. Now that I’m out of the system I have learned that much of what I was taught was wrong. Problem was I was only taught one thing for six years, spiritual authority every Sunday. I still have my notes and it was almost the same sermon for six years! How brain washed can you get.
So here we are again. Now its Doug Cotton. That’s why the Gail B. thing and been brought back up, it’s the same thing. Pastors are out there abusing their authority and it needs to stop! These people and instances are examples that many people endured for years. MFI and other “apostalic ministries”, affliate chruches are being taught wrongly and practicing wrongly and its hurting people.
I see an “apostalic ministry” taking a gifted person from the body of Christ, placing them and their family on a pedestal and then seperating them from their brothers and sisters in Christ. Treating them as something “special” from the rest of the flock. They can’t be accountable to others in the body (read Dougs letter to his congregation), if they do fail. They have to be accountable to the uppers only. They have to keep things secret about their lives becasue God forbid if they are real in anyway. That is really, really sad to me. They have to be perfect.
I have seen it personally, I’ve been to their meetings you see the social climbing going on. Of course the bigger and more money your chruch brings in the higher your status becomes.
wow i had to shred all mine. just couldn’t bear to be reminded i took notes there for so long.
and i left quietly too only because you were expected to have an exit interview (if they could ever find time to work you into their calendar) and felt that my silence in this case would speak louder then saying the same thing that had been said for years. Furthermore, i felt like i owed it to myself not to be subjected to their further scrutiny — especially since they are the ones who needed and still need scrutiny.
[Comment ID #28167 Will Be Quoted Here]
Mark !
You have got to stop talking like this, If you keep it up there are a lot of us who, will have to get out of our comfort zones, stand up and be counted.
Gees wouldn’t that be some thing to see? A mighty army of God rising up against indignation, false profits and that which offends the children of God and his purpose.
Fox Hole Christian wrote: …mighty army of God rising up against indignation, false profits…
FHC: “false profits!” – fabulous! I love double meanings; did you try this one on purpose?
[Comment ID #28145 Will Be Quoted Here]
I’m sure you’re joking, Mark, at least I hope so. Nevertheless, this sort of thing DOES HAPPEN and is justified for exactly the reasons Dan stated, or the famous 7×70 story, or many of the other stories emphasizing forgiveness.
Regardless of what the Bible or our secular law says, We will all feel the consequences of immoral actions because of the very fact that those actions are immoral and lead to bad consequences. Any other definition of Morality makes no sense.
There is a difference between forgiveness and consequences. Say someone is raped, and they forgive the perpetrator and move on with their lives. That they forgave is a GOOD THING. Say the rapist is then not punished because of forgiveness, and can rape again. This is a BAD THING! Forgiveness is in the heart, but you have a responsibility to society to uphold basic justice.
You’d have to be a very amoral person to disagree with the above statement. Although I was taught differently, being “born again” and following the Bible DOES NOT MAKE YOU A MORAL PERSON. Many of these people become confused about the difference between right and wrong. Indeed, they accept what their pastor and their Bible tell them, regardless of whether it contradicts their inner moral sense or even secular law.
I understand it is popular to believe that the Bible is the highest law for Christians, but it simply is not true. Popes and pastors have used scripture to support torture, murder, sexism, racism, child abuse, genocide, etc. etc. There are accounts of all these things being done in God’s name and having his approval. Now lets add injustice and “covering up sin” to the list, eh?
If you go to Iran, you’ll see many people still believe this way. Of course, to any modern westerner raised under humanist law, wiping whole nations out in God’s name is obviously wrong. So is sexism, racism, and a bunch of other things that people use the Bible for.
PS: And please don’t say the Bible does not openly support sexism, racism, and genocide; that will just prove to me that you haven’t actually read it for yourself.
[Comment ID #28152 Will Be Quoted Here]
Doc, I appreciate your request to keep it civil, I heartily agree.
What Mark was saying was clearly either farcical or aberrant. To call it “dumb” is a perfectly valid statement and is really not that inflammatory. For you not to see this seems very odd; would you consider Mark’s scenario to be a good result of applying Biblical forgiveness? Maybe it’s just not your type of humor? Blogs and comments are full of provocative, even trollish, statements.
For me the point here is, if you follow the Bible literally and without understanding then you are likely to make weird moral mistakes like this. It can also lead you to believe things that are provably false or that always lead to bad results. This is why biblical interpretations need to be weighed against extra-biblical concepts and authorities, including secular and common law:
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, “You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord.” When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Calvin,
I understood his point, and I thought it was cleverly made. Despite the impression that I apparently make on this blog, I enjoy satire as much as the next guy. However, I guess I do prefer it when people engage in argument rather than name calling. In my experience thats what people do when they don’t like something but can’t express why. I guess I’m of the opinion that if you can’t respond to the argument rather than the person, keep thinking…it’ll come to you. If you think my attempts to change that response are an exercise in futility, your point is well taken
As far as the example is concerned, I think both Dan and Mark are correct. I agree with you that forgiveness does not eliminate the need for punishment/correction. If Dan has the impression that there is lurking unforgiveness, I can’t disagree with that. At the same time, I do think there are ongoing issues that must be addressed, and these types of problems will never be addressed without talking about them. I don’t equate forgiveness with silence. Still, I’m not sure where the line is between righteous indignation and unforgiveness. Because of that, I’ll leave it to each person’s conscience.
I can’t quite go there with you, although I understand the sentiment. I don’t believe the fact that a particular part of scripture does not sit well with us should be a reason to dismiss its authority. But I think is a great idea to wrestle with it.
Either scripture is inspired or it isn’t. The idea that the Bible is has some kind of quasi-authority, where we get to decide when its authoritative and when it is oxymoronic.
I’m not trying to dodge the specific issues you raised, I just don’t have the energy to address them all tonight. We would need a separate thread anyway.
I agree with Doc we should wrestle with these problems for a while longer. There is no use rushing into action. We should get a think group together in the next couple years and see if they can come to a logical solution.Doc maybe you could lead the group . You could be our quasi-authority. God loves people that are puffed up in their own knowledge .Here is to thirty years down the road. Whew thought we might have to take responsibility for a minute.
You’ve got that right! One little post of scripture (referencing foregiveness, of all things!) and my Inbox went crazy.
Double Amen to that!
You’ll not find me defending MFI actions in this or other cases at all.
Dan Wood
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
No.
No.
Now, this one has me almost R O T F L !!!!!!!!! Look through this blog and see who is using his real name. One hint for your one guess: It rhymes with Dan Wood.
Yes.
And you were doing so well until this part. You’ll need to talk to some of the people on here hiding behind screen names; I’ll accept your apology after you get more informed as to my role and viewpoint on this whole unfortunate affair.
Now, you’re back on track. Nice comeback from the edge!
Dan Wood
Not an article; just the pasting of scripture.
DW
[Comment ID #28152 Will Be Quoted Here]
Thanks. I tried saying that, but not as well.
I kinda got drummed off this board some time ago for daring to mention forgiveness. I see that sentiment remains.
I think a person can forgive and still deal with injustice and abuse. In fact, I think that is the combination that many scriptures together would suggest.
Dan Wood
Dan Wood and DOC—
I commend your efforts to try to bring some biblical perspective to this blog, especially in regard to the concept of forgiveness, however futile it will prove to be
Reading your attempts to do so, and the sometimes cruel responses, reminds me of when I tried to do the same thing, and got blasted good for it, from several quarters.
I, like you, have never condoned the crap that has gone on — and apparently continues to go on — in many of the local churches to good people. But I can’t agree with the hateful attitudes — if you don’t think so, go back and read what some folks have said — that also seem to have resulted.
But, one gets accused of condoning the crap anyway. If one goes back and provides quotes to prove otherwise, the point will be danced around, purposely misconstrued, jeered at, or ignored altogether.
Then come the accusations. Of not getting the point, of being a co-perpetrator, or a cancer, and of having an antichristal attitude.
Then come the names, like “Pharisee,” “toilet-scrubber,” “oaf,” or “a**-hole,” and one’s comments will be referred to as “bulls**t.” Reeks with love, don’t it?
Surprised? Don’t be. You see, one of the inherent rights of being fed up with the IC, or of having been in a local church where this junk has gone on is being allowed to curse/use profanity whenever one wants
Doubt they’d say it in front of Christ. But here, it’s a-OK.
Look DOC and Dan, you’ve gotta realize one thing…some folks are so enraged at what they’ve, or others, have experienced, that nothing, no amount the Scripture, no amount of gentile persuasion can convince them to check their own attitudes. They’re too good at dodging that one.
“Why should we have to? The stuff these guys did was rotten!”
(Yes it was.)
“We’ve got to tell others, warn them!”
(Yes, absolutely. People need to be warned. But…)
“But what?”
(What about forgiveness?)
“Forgiveness schmorgiveness. By god, where’s the rope?!”
(Hold on now. Are you saying you don’t believe in forgiveness?)
“Well, no…I believe in forgiving.”
(You do?)
“Uh…yeah.”
(Well, maybe you should look it up, because forgiveness means lovingly letting go of an offence, of not wanting to see them get punished, even though they deserve it. Of when you must speak about it, you do so with kindness and compassion.)
“Well, I know…”
(Just like God does when He forgives YOU of your sins.)
“Hey now! Wait a sec! Are you defending what they did?”
(No, not at all. What they did was despicable.)
“Don’t you think they deserve to be punished for what they have done?”
(Yes, they do, as do we all. I just don’t relish the thought.)
“So, are you saying we’re to forget about all this?”
(No. Not at all. I’m just saying…what about your attitude?)
“My attitude?…Well…I suppose I forgive them, but…I just can’t help it…I want them to suffer…to pay for what they’ve done!”
(Then friend, you haven’t really forgiven them.)
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
-joebib
[Comment ID #28201 Will Be Quoted Here]
joebib, you are certainly representing a popular Christian attitude. I understand your calling for forgiveness, but I do not accept that this means that justice should not occur.
Some would argue differently, saying that, because God is never going to judge you for your sins, then you should never ask for judgment against another for theirs. The plank in your own eye versus the speck in another, to paraphrase scripture.
I really think this is a minority opinion, or at least should be! People feel a natural desire for justice; to claim that this is evil is to subvert the very basis of law, order, and society. Christians have never struck me as being particularly lawless, or advocating it!
For evil to occur without due retribution is not something moral people want; it’s what amoral people want.
I understand the concept of forgiveness, and value of it in my own life and in others. To have law without forgiveness would not be a good thing, but neither would forgiveness without law. Those who speak against Doug should be forgiving, but they still have the right to speak for justice.
PS: And I still am not saying anything against Doug; I am speaking against some rather hateful theology that allows abusive power structures to occur.
joebib: no one wants anyone to pay for what they’ve done, we just want them to stop doing it and we will continue to warn others until they do. Stop confusing the issue with forgiveness ,it doesn’t apply here.
Sounds like everyone has forgiven they just do not want to forget. The question is should they have accountability and removed for abuse and should mfi reinstate them. Go back and read joes remarks about women, their percentage of guilt, how the came on to a preacher friend of his. He makes them out to be unable to control their sexual desires urges desires . Back to subject Accountability.
I recently read where the Jews Who went through the holocost and their familys still have outrage against hitler. Any chance joe and doc that you can send them some forgiveness scriptures, nothing else though as you can’t relate to others. On second thought don’t write the Jews. It didn’t happen to you so you do not get it. If you do write them i advise you to use as much scripture as possible and use forgiveness a lot, it should confuse the issue.
[Comment ID #28208 Will Be Quoted Here]
To restate what I said previously…
At the same time, I do think there are ongoing issues that must be addressed, and these types of problems will never be addressed without talking about them. I don’t equate forgiveness with silence. Still, I’m not sure where the line is between righteous indignation and unforgiveness. Because of that, I’ll leave it to each person’s conscience.
Does this position bother you?
After church one Sunday joebib, dan and doc decide to go out to coffee together. As they are on their way across town they came upon an accident scene. They were the first ones there. There was a car turned over in the ditch with a man laying along side. His wife and children were still trapped inside the car. They immediately jumped out to help. The man bleeding badly was calling for help.
joebib: Are you alright? What happened?
man: Do I look alright? Some bastard ran us off the road that’s what happened! Please help my wife and kids I think they might be hurt!
joebib: just a minute I think you need to think about your attitude right now and using profanity certainly isn’t going to help.
man: My God man! Please just help my family! I can’t move my legs or I’d do it myself.
doc: look sir we can’t help you unless you calm down. Are you sure you can’t move your legs? And are you sure someone ran you off the road? I don’t see anyone else here.
man: Calm Down? I’m hurt! My wife and kids are too! Like I told you some crazy bastard ran us off the road!
dan: So now he’s a crazy bastard! Until you forgive nothing in your life is going to change. Can’t you see? Love is what’s important here. He probably doesn’t even know he ran you off the road. He probably didn’t do it on purpose
man: Are you guys crazy? Please help us! Can’t you see we’re hurt?
joebib: Now he’s calling us crazy! Come on guys ,we’re just wasting our time here. Wow I can’t believe that guys attitude! Can you dan? He’s going to have a lot of forgiving to do! doc did you hear the sarcasm? Wow I’m amazed! Let’s go get that cup of coffee I have some scriptures I’d like to discuss with you two.
doc: Gods word, my favorite subject!
Dan: Speaking of God that guy must have taken his name in vain three or four times.
Some people just don’t get it do they guys?
My conscience says hilarious but true. Does this position bother you Doc?
[Comment ID #28212 Will Be Quoted Here]
Not at all
You won’t be surprised to hear that I think it misrepresents our actual positions. So long as we’re more interested in talking about people than actual ideas, its perfect. Very clever.
Would you be surprised that i think you have no empathy for others and are a sociopath. I say this with love and great respect for your beliefs.
[Comment ID #28215 Will Be Quoted Here]
I guess not, but it did make me laugh.
If the man had tithed regularly, he’d have had a hedge of protection, and would not have gotten in the accident in the first place.
He did tithe but but the pastor of his church thought it was not enough and ran him off the road.
Dan Wood…….why did you use your own name? Oh, of course you would use your own name. You’re a polititian! It is a form of boasting. and of intimidation. My opinion is more important than yours because I am DW.
As for the rest of us, the names have been changed to protect the innocent!
It looks like the people on this blog have found a place where they can have their say, get it out of their systems, and have a little fun while they are at it.
We all love Jesus and know the Scriptures, same as you, but are tired of being beaten to death with the Word. Remember….without LOVE you become as sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal.
Like the CLF elder, I wish Doug Cotton the best also, but do you think the best for him or the community is two MFI churches in the same town who are at odds with each other.
I was visiting with some Christian friends a couple of weeks ago and said “hey, did you see where the ex pastor of CLF is starting another church in Aberdeen?” One of them said “Pastor said we are not supposed to talk about it.” Shhhhhhhhh!
My problem isent with Doug Cotton or his wife and family. I love them and want the best for them. They have never offended me and I could turn a blind eye to all of this….But Doug openly admitted he has a problem and was going for help. That was a major step in the right direction for the church. It showed that he does have the capacity to be a great leader. If he really does go get help and openly expose his weaknesses to his new church family so they can all work together and hold each other accountable….
Hence…
The M F I lords threw a wet blanket on what the Lord was doing. They seem to close the doors on any openness. we can’t keep letting them cover the sins of the leader’s they place out there.
I see that just talking about these issue’s on here may not solve the problem. But it can bring healing to the saints that have been messed up in these Churches….Just to find out they aren’t the problem, they aren’t to blame. They can talk about they real issues. There are others that know there pain…
Anyone up for picketing on Sunday mornings. lol Two or Three at each mfi church might be fun!
So, class, we now understand that anyone who has ever held a local public office should stop using the name their parents gave them because to do so would be boasting and intimidating.
The humble and loving thing to do is create an alias. For you, Dan, I suggest a Big D, D-dub, or perhaps Woody. Maybe “The Politician Formerly Known as Dan Wood.” Although, now that I think about it, these may not work. Any aliases that have an association to your given name might lead someone to figure out what your name really is, which would, of course, be boasting.
Maybe you should go with something nondescript like Tiny, or Herb.
Just Curious,
If he tells people he changed his name, so we know that he is actually Dan Wood calling himself something different, is that still arrogant and intimidating?
(I’m afraid I may have been drug into the gutter with this one, but I couldn’t resist.)
oh gag.
I wonder where this elevation of 1/5 of the 5-fold ministry began and why the perpetuation of the worshipfest of this position has gone on for so long. I came across people like this all the time when still at the MFI church who would ask us things like “Where does Pastor like to eat” and I would just say “Which one?” (which usually made their faces turn red!) For crying out loud there were 10 pastors on staff. Why didn’t they care about the other hard working people? And why can’t they use the guys name? If you are so enthralled with him, the least you could do is use his name. Truth to tell, I think if he weren’t the senior pastor, they wouldn’t be so interested in where Pastor likes to eat.
I know this sounds trite in comparison to the indepth discussion of forgiveness. But actually it’s at the heart of why forgiveness is a process and not just a decision. Certain triggers still set us off. It lets us know that we still have an issue and so we deal with it and go on till the next time a trigger sets us off. Preachiness on forgiveness is certainly a trigger. Not saying you guys can’t remind us we have attitues and need to forgive but those of us still processing stuff beg to differ with a sense of being silenced or corrected and of course written off as offended and bitter.
You have to remember that we have all dealt with this kind of overcorrective Christianity for far too long which is one of the reasons we left the authoritarian style church in the first place. If we sound bitter and offended, so be it. We have a lot of grievances plus it’s maddening to see bad behavior in these churches still affecting people. Like Rhema Survivor said “no one wants anyone to pay for what they’ve done, we just want them to stop doing it and we will continue to warn others until they do.”
LOL no one had to drag you down to the gutter Doc. You have been swimming in it, cleverly hidden in the guise of religion. I prayed and asked Dod to give me the words to say. He told me and i said ” no God i can’t”. He said i must so take it as prophecy if you want. “DOC YOU ARE A POMPOUS ASS”. Sorry Doc, not my idea.
Fantastically written sfc–The word pastor said in ‘that certain way’ also
makes my skin crawl because it has within it a disregard for all the other people who are serving in positions of leadership but never get those -free vacations
Starbucks cards-any recognition-praise from the platform-an IRS waiver for their
taxes–pick any of the above.
So glad there is a promise in the Word -
‘but the last shall be first and the first shall be last’
who do you think that means in this scenario?
Hey, you just stepped in UPDOC !
Bugs Bunny: What’s up DOC ?
I don’t know but you’ve got it all over your foot!
DOC I couldn’t resist either!
[Comment ID #28234 Will Be Quoted Here]
DARN IT!!!!!
I WANTED TO SAY THIS….
LOL
LOL… WHATS UP DOC….I THOUGHT I GOT A WHIFF OF SOME THING TOO…LOL
Ok….i have to just interject a couple of things here…
Number One…CLF IS NOT A MFI CHURCH. they removed ALL ties quite a while ago. so NO there are NOT two MFI churches. Only DC’s.
Number two. …many have asked why they do not publish or make available to the public etc the statements and names of those who made them so that “others” could understand. well…their initial plans were for a membership meeting including DC where those that made the statement could get up and read into the meeting minutes the statements and facts they made. thereafter DC could respond to the allegations and a resolution could be come to. When DC saw that no-o0ne was going to back down and give him back his church….and read the statements(which were made available to him). He decided he would NOT attend and would step down. But NOT before informing the elders each in e-mail etc and the church as a organization that ANY public reading or informing of the statements and the names of the persons making them would be met with a lawsuit of defamation of character against them. and he would “take everything they had”. So they were basically told that no-one could make these public without a lawsuit by HIS(MFI’s) lawyer. so only members read it….in private..with a member of the eldership present one at a time AFTER the meeting and only by request and that is the way it has stayed. they want no part of a lawsuit.
Most all of us here at CLF want to and have forgiven DC and are moving on. we want to see the move of God and that is our concentration. As far as the leadership and the people here are concerned…it is over and done with. we wish DC well and hope that he gets the help and healing he needs to be effective and has not gotten yet. No-one in leadership here has told anyone that i know of that they cannot talk about this. We just feel…why talk about the past.
as for the 100 people…at the time this all started to come down…ALL of the members that DC had e-mail addy’s for were shared with his “friends” and he and they sent SEVERAL e-mails about him wanting his church back and supporting DC and such. many of us had to send e-mails to these people telling them PLEASE desist with the e-mails. that is where the 100 came from. a concerted effort to prosletyze the members of the church. it is and has been their intention to get as many members from CLF as they can.
we just figure…God will have those here He wants and the others will go elsewhere. I pray for DC and pray a blessing on him every day. I would love to see him healed and moving in the calling God has given him.
He has wounded many here and many are still in counselling over it. But the healing is coming one inch at a time and God will and is moving and we are moving on to the work God has for each of us.
We are moving on to the work before us and praying for and helping anyone who needs help dealing with this. You will find no-one here sweeping it under the rug. we have just done all that we can and are focusing now on the Lord and on becoming the people of God that He can use for the coming move. Bless you all .
[Comment ID #28220 Will Be Quoted Here]
STANDING BEHIND YOU ON THIS ONE…LOL WTG
THERE ARE A FEW POSTER ON HERE THAT DROP HINTS TO LET US KNOW THE ARE IN THE HIGHER RANKS. I THINK THEY WOUND BE SHOCKED AS TO WHO THEY ARE TALKING TO.
MY LORD HAS NO FAVORITES.
LITTLE BOY BLUE COME BLOW YOUR HORN…LOL
Clf should be applauded for having the nerve to oust an abusive pastor. They did it the right way and now must withstand the wrath of mfi. We should all be praying for them
[Comment ID #28241 Will Be Quoted Here]
Well stated.
What you have posted is exactly my understanding of what has happened.
Good job CLF for taking a stand and having courage. The one concern I have in reading your post is that you are all done with it and have forgiven him -but what about those people who go to the new church and have no idea about the history of the situation. This same thing happens all the time -unsuspecting Christians or seekers wander in there and have no idea the lions den they may have just entered.
It keeps happening all the time because as we move on we’re reluctant to
‘stir up strife’ and don’t want to make a fuss or appear negative or unforgiving so than the new bait walk into the trap.
How do I know –I found out the same type of things I discovered in our church here had gone on way way back –those people moved on away from the controlling leaders and than left us wide open thinking we had found a good church.
How can we help we protect our brothers and sisters in Christ –What
does CLF plan to do to help prevent future victims from being attacked?
Is it our responsibility or not?
“If not you than who –if not not than when?”
Just asking.
Clarification:
“If not you than who? If not now than when?’
[Comment ID #28220 Will Be Quoted Here]
I use my own name because I do not feel it necessary to hide from my own opinion or shadow.
To clarify, I am no longer an elected official and I seek no office.
While you know who I am, I do not know who you are. So be it. If you know me at all, you know that I have not been one to hide from my opinion or my shadow.
And to also clarify — CLF is NOT an MFI church. If it was, I would no longer attend, given what I have seen here and read of MFI’s dealings across the nation.
[Comment ID #28242 Will Be Quoted Here]
One advantage of people using their own names, is it brings more incentive to use correct facts.
And to avoid slaps in the face for the sake of slapping in the face.
I am just really surprised that using my own name is somehow argued to be a form of arrogance.
Be forewarned, JoAnna Reibel and David Mackin, the supersleuths have figured our our identifies and know we are full of ourselves by the evidence of using our given names.
Sheesh!
And, while I’m at it, let me take us back to what triggered the personal attacks against me. Someone referenced Matthew 18, so I pasted part of Matthew 18 into a response, asking if that what was referenced.
I did so to illustrate that turning away someone who is unrepentent is directed in the same chapter as forgiving the person.
We CAN hold someone accountable and forgive them at the same time.
And now, hopefully, we all return to a discussion of how to prevent these situations from occurring o’er and o’er in our churches.
Dan WoodBilly (yeah, that’s the ticket)
thinking right . I completely agree with you. Excellent
Dan Wood and DOC —
See what I mean?
joe
Calvin –
I appreciate your attempt at a measured response.
However, you’re setting up a straw man, as have so many. If you’ll carefully read what I have said, you will find the following:
I’m not against justice. In fact, it must (and will) come.
I do not think the desire for justice is evil.
I recognize the natural desire for it among moral people.
Hear me…what I AM against is the self-righteous, hate-filled attitudes that accompany it.
Just go back and read some of the posts by people claiming to be forgiven sinners and believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. These posts contain the idea that because someone has sinned in doing stuff to others, that this somehow gives these people the inherent right to allow themselves to become filled with bitterness, harshness, an unforgiving and mean spirit, to use profanity, and engage in name-calling. Is that your idea of forgiveness?
You’ll find no biblical support for that stuff in the life of a true Christian.
All of which — according to Jesus, not me — puts them in the same position of the person(s) they’re talking about.
Did you look up the verse I posted? Matthew 18:35? Did you happen to read its setting? It’s at the end of the Parable Jesus told — in response to Peter’s question about how many times should we forgive, where Jesus said 70 times 7 — about someone who was forgiven of their OWN sins, but then they didn’t want to forgive someone else of THEIR’S.
I challenge you to go and read it, and open your heart to what it is saying. Do you see where Jesus called the person who wouldn’t forgive others, after he himself had been forgiven, “wicked?” Where the unforgiver was turned over to the “tormentors?” Lord help us, for that has surely happened in this situation.
And please don’t tell me they have forgiven. That is, unless there’s a new definition of “forgiveness” out there that I’m not aware of.
If you’re not sure of the nature of true forgiveness, just ask yourself how you want God to forgive you of your past sins. It’ll quickly become clear to you.
Its obvious they haven’t, because if they had, their posts would read differently.
—————————————————————————
Rhema –
Your story made me chuckle. You definitely have the gift of wit
However, the supposed comparison you attempt to draw is apples and oranges. You made that hypothetical incident to have just occurred moments before the “three amigos†got there, which, I agree, would have shown our heartlessness.
But, consider this…what if that guy was STILL having that same attitude, and was STILL talking that same way 20 years later? STILL filled with all that hate and anger, STILL spewing profanity and STILL allowing bitterness to eat away at not only his frame of mind, but also allowing it, yes, I said allowing it, to “torment” his soul? Hmmm?
Well then, THAT would be accurately reflecting the situation that I’m trying to address.
And would show me that the original perpetrator, the one guilty of the crime, had won, BTW.
joebib
[Comment ID #28253 Will Be Quoted Here]
Thinking Right;
You win the prize… This is what most or us are trying to get at.
So simple even a cave man can get it
This is why we are here, to have a voice, to warn others.
As you can see the religious spirited christians can’t handle it.
All I can say is keep telling what you know. At least the new comers will be able to exercise their free will.
Well said foxhole. Thinking Right asked the same question I’ve been asking over and over from the beginning. I guess if I wasn’t so bitter and unforgiving people would have gotten the message sooner. I hope Thinking Right gets a better response than I did. We’ve wasted enough time on this.
[Comment ID #28253 Will Be Quoted Here]
The majority of the people at Harbor City Church will be disgruntled former members of CLF.
If they chose not to believe the accusations against Doug Cotten when they were brought up, and decided to follow Doug Cotton, how exactly do you propose to warn them about Doug Cotton now?
I agree completely.
this blog reminds me of the mid east . Two sides united with god as their common ground who hate each other. One side will hold out for accountability the other for forgivenss and forget it. Best the two sides continue to dislike each other and not talk to the other.
[Comment ID #28260 Will Be Quoted Here]
Yeah, you’re probably right about the straw man comment. I was trying to pull some sort of coherency from the conversations, an idealism that probably does not exist except for in specific parts of the Bible, like Matthew but not Leviticus.
Just because someone uses profanity does not mean they are angry. Just because someone is angry does not mean they are unforgiving. For example, I am very angry about The Military Commission Act of 2006, but I am quick to forgive my fellow citizens who made it possible. But the criminals this act pardoned should be prosecuted; and I’m not being “unforgiving” to think that. Torturing people is wrong, holding US citizens without trial is wrong, and people who do this should be punished.
I did and have read Matthew 18, and I appreciate the value of what it is saying. My point was, the parable of the Unmerciful Servant can lead to some very bad ideas! If this story were taken to apply to all situations where a crime had been committed against a Christian, then there would be no justice at all!
Matthew 5:38-42 emphases this concepts even more explicitly If someone kidnaps you, go with them freely. If someone takes something from you, give them even more. If anybody wants to borrow or steal money from you, give it to them.
Like I said, I respect this idea, and value it and puzzle over it. But if someone was robbed and went to the cops to demand justice, would you consider them unforgiving? Or what if someone kidnapped you? Would you go with them willingly, and not report them to the authorities? Would you really loan or give money to anybody who asks?
There are obviously problems with living this way, and a society (churches included) could not function under these rules only. In fact, I don’t know a single Christian who would actually behave this way, or even advocate it as explicitly as Matthew does.
For one thing, as has already been pointed out in the comments, Matthew 18:15-17 is more appropriate to the situation, and how it was handled. Judging by those verses, the elders did exactly the right thing! Although I have to laugh at the statement, “treat him like you would a pagan or a tax collector”. (knowing Matthew’s previous employment).
Honestly, I find justifying everything through Bible verses to be a very odd experience.; I’d forgotten what it was like! I am so happy I don’t live under that dogma any more. After I learned about textual criticism, the document theory, and old Jewish and Christian culture, the Bible makes a lot more sense!
DAN WOOD
I apologize for accusing you of boasting and intimidation. Please forgive me.
What triggered my remarks was your response to someone. You said “Look thru this blog and see who is using his real name. One hint for your one guess. It rhymes with Dan Wood. You’ll need to talk to some of the people on here ‘hiding behind screen names.’ ”
No one is hiding! this is what a blog is for, so people can honestly air their concerns and not worry about repercussions. I don’t want to know who they are.
If we were required to use our ‘real names’ there would be no discussion.
And no one would be interested in reading what the ‘real names’ had to say.
As I said before, the names have been changed to protect the innocent!
Now Dan, time for truth or consequences. Did you screw up and use your real name by accident?
Dan, was talking about certain people not being afraid to use their real name. I talked to one of them and the admitted that is what happened to them ,they filled in out the form wrong. Dan if you screwed up don’t admit it lol. When they run you out of town, wave like you are leading a parade.
[Comment ID #28282 Will Be Quoted Here]
Mark, you’re pretty damn witty, but don’t be a troll.
Anybody who knows Dan Wood sees that he is a decent man and a law abiding citizen. I might disagree with him on some things, but he is speaking because he cares, not for evil. For Christ’s sake please be civil.
What’s your real name, anyway?
Just kidding.
Thanks. Done.
Here is the challenge with “anonymously” discussing these things out in the open: It lacks credibility among the target audience.
That is, the target audience is the people who should be warned and protected.
As you well know, the response of many people to the sitaution at CLF was disbelief. How could he have done the things he allegedly had done?
There is, quite naturally, a perception that the issues and accusations must not be credible if people are not willing to attach their names to the reports.
In response, the statements from 18 households were assembled and people making the statements agreed to have their names attached to those statements. No statements were included unless the people were willing to have their names attached to them. This was a necessary element to establish the credibility of the statements.
Now, then, there is this ongoing discussion on this blog. And I believe it is the sincere desire of people involved to protect believers and seekers from harm by abusive leadership.
Here’s what is offered to them: “Six to eight active members and leaders of CLF claim that a former pastor did things that were bad, and you should be careful. We can’t get into details, for fear of being sued.”
I fully understand the desire to protect one’s self from lawsuit.
Based on ~7 years as an elected official and more than 20 in non-profit board positions, I have seen my share of letters from attorneys and threats of lawsuits.
Such threats are unavoidable in today’s society.
Some attorneys would advise a total risk-management approach by taking no risk at all.
Others would advise simply making sure you are speaking truth and using terms like “allegedly” and “claims” as you discuss situations.
It is also advisable for boards to carry “errors and ommissions” insurance to protect the board members from personal costs in lawsuits.
I actually used my real name on purpose.Billy says that Dan used his real name on purpose.Dan Woodbilly
Calvin don,t be a doc , sorry i mean dic. I wasn’t kidding someone did tell me they put their name up by mistake. law abiding citizen? I have no doubts. Speaking because he cares? Yeah from what he says about himself he sounds wonderful.
Calvin—
Thanks for the response, and I appreciate the backbone it took to make the admission about the straw man.
I do hear what you are trying to say, the conciliatory attitude of trying to give certain ones the benefit of the doubt, which is very commendable.
Nevertheless, there is no doubt, and it is apparent from what has been said that some of these saints are showing that they ARE STILL very angry/offended about the situation. Again, go back and read some of the posts.
Look, I have the same feelings of right and wrong, of moral indignation for what was done, and I understand how these things can provoke us in this way. I, too, think that stuff was reprehensible, and for it to be allowed to continue to go on, is…well, just unbelievable and so, so wrong.
But too many have seemed to let it infect their spirit with a bitterness — and there’s the rub, you see — and I’m trying to reason with them about that. Believe me, I have been there, too, even in regard to stuff that happened to me personally, and I can tell you that unless one lets it go and allows healing to come, life becomes very jaded, unpleasant and at times filled with torment (cf. Matthew 18:34).
As far as profanity goes, if someone uses it — but not in anger — it still doesn’t justify doing it. Paul warns us about dirty talking and the like, in Ephesians 5:1, NASB:
Hey, I’m guilty of it…a while back I, too, gave in to frustration and made some sarcastic remarks about the Kama Sutra, which I regret doing, as it was really uncalled for, as well as raised the hackles of some, and rightfully so.
But I still believe we are still called to live lives above this kind of stuff. This principle is seen in Romans 14:14-16, where believers in Jesus are encouraged to not do something they themselves feel at liberty to do, if it will offend or hurt others:
Not to mention the harmful witness it provides to the world — they know in their hearts that “Christians” shouldn’t speak this way, regardless of any personal anecdotes to the contrary.
————————————————————————–
I’m sorry to hear you’ve bought into the conjectures of the Graf-Wellhausen Documentary Hypothesis — which effectively takes the guts out of the OT — as well as the opinions of Messrs. Westcott and Hort — which does the same to the NT — and the resultant doubt about the Word of God that must eventually result from following their teachings. Heaven knows you’ve got plenty of scholarly company in the modern world of academia.
Some of us had a rather lively discussion around here about that very issue a while back — under the Inerrancy thread — and I see that the notion of reading a Bible replete with errors, inaccuracies and misstatements is still a popular concept around here, and is still very well entrenched at C-Biz-C.
Your statement…
…proves the very point I was trying to make in that thread.
Hear me, Calvin…when we begin to doubt the AUTHENTICITY of the biblical record — due to the so-called “findings” of these scientific/archaeological/historical “experts” — when we begin to pooh-pooh the Bible’s AUTHORITY over our lives, it is a small step indeed, and becomes no big deal, for us to pick and choose which few verses we want to obey today
-joebib
Joebib,
I’m glad that you are trying to apply biblical principles such as forgiveness and the avoidance of bitterness to this situation. All Christians should be mindful of these principles and act accordingly.
What you fail to realize, however, is that there is a difference between forgiving and warning. The only reason I still want more details of the Doug Cotton affair released to the public is so that the people at his new church understand what really happened at CLF. Those people have a right to know.
Without historical knowledge of what happened, they will not know how to properly tailor an accountability structure at the new church. How will they know if any of DC’s future actions are better or worse than his previous ones? How will they be prepared to answer questions about DC’s past? How will they work together with DC to help eliminate these bad character traits from society?
It is our job as Christians to forgive DC or anyone else who has fallen short. It is also our job as Christians to speak up, warn people, and fight for accountability — in essence, to be watchmen.
Allowing anyone to continue to abuse people is unthinkable.
People with a pattern of abuse never (In my personal experience) stop that pattern of abuse and it always (Again, in my own experience) escalates.
The only time an abuser changes is when an intervention occurs and they are forced to confront their issues in counseling.
Sometimes that intervention occurs in their workplace or home, but it often happens as a result of criminal prosecution.
If any member of the new Harbor City Church wants to find out information on Doug Cotton, it would not be difficult to do so. After all, CLF is still there, and there are a lot of people who attend who read the nearly 100 pages of signed declarations by the witnesses to Doug Cotton’s actions.
OK, I’ll admit it. I’m not so clever at making a point as I thought I was.
I dropped a hint last night, and I’m not sure it was obvious enough.
So, here is the obvious:
I previously posted as Word in Time (the name selected because I believe the Word, in time, will always ring true and provide solid guidance).
After the challenge from “Just Curious” I decided I should let you all know that I previously used that “handle” and decided to drop it.
Thank you, Just Curious, for making me think and change my “wicked” ways.
And I’ll be clear that the points made by “Word” are my thoughts, indeed. Specifically, that the Word tells us that these things should be dealt with in public, so that others would see and fear.
I DO understand why some people have posted anonymously on here, because I have felt the same hesitation in the past.
Last December, I stopped posting because of the harsh reaction I received from church leadership.
It was not because of a fear of lawsuit. Speaking the truth and sticking with the facts are adequate protection from lawsuits.
So now, I want to admit that I was wrong to fear the response, and ask anyone on here to forgive me if I offended anyone by giving into the fear of that response.
As I have sought peace from the Lord in this entire matter, I have come to this realization:
It matters very little how we feel about these things, and matters entirely how we act in accordance with how God says in His Word when dealing with these matters.
So, I have decided to share my thoughts and own them at the same time.
My sincere desire is to 1) find a way to protect people from repeated harm from abusive church leadership and 2) make sure we don’t forget that God restores people and can use all of us despite our mistakes, failings and stupid actions.
I have some thoughts on this to share in a future post.
Dan Woodbilly[Comment ID #28283 Will Be Quoted Here]
Thanks for the nice words, Calvin. But I am as fallible as the next person. When I held public office, I always told people that they should monitor me and any other elected official to make sure we did not misuse and abuse the precious power and authority that was temporarily placed in our hands.
As for Mark 9:42′s comments, I thoughts it was good humor, not an insult. I especially enjoyed the part about waving like I was leading the parade! Good one!
Dan WoodbillyWell said.
reforming heathen said: The majority of the people at Harbor City Church will be disgruntled former members of clf.
If that is the case than I guess the majority of the people at CLF were former disgruntled members of Rehma? I know years ago of someone who felt like the Lord told them to go talk to Doug Cotton and Devin Backholm about taking care of the legacy that Gail Bryan had left behind. Finding all of the people that were wounded or destroyed by what he had done and restoring them if they could. It never happened. Does anyone see a pattern here? Until people stop building their churches on the destroyed lives of the past, history is just going to repeat itself.
Rhema survivor, that was before my time, but I do wonder, what did you do about it?
Dan, you said
My question is people like Gail Bryan, who was sent out at least three times by Bible Temple. Should they be restored to pastor again? If they are sent out without telling the next congregation their besetting sin, do we have a responsibility to warn them? Please don’t start in on forgiveness because i have done that ,and some have done that to muddy the waters. If a local congregation has found a pastor wanting and have replaced him, is it biblical if not right for a church to set him up as pastor in another church, especially a church that is not local? Does their judgement trump the local churches knowledge of the situation?When is it OK to forgive but limit the responsibilities of pastors who abuse their position?
Reforming heathen I don’t know if Rhema survivor id part of the group but suspect they are. They called a meeting with Gail and Eunice.At the meeting they asked Gail about some of his statements he had made to the congregation about them . Gail denied making such statements and Eunice said “Yes you did say that”. The ensuing glare he gave her was deadly. Shortly after the congregation was told not to talk with them.Which the congregation did. If these people had come forward with what they knew it would not have made a difference because it would have been said that “they were in sin for questioning a man of god, and should pray and keep silent
[Comment ID #28295 Will Be Quoted Here]
I see. Well, sinner that I am, I would NOT keep quiet.
Then again, if any pastor had abused me, they would be answering in criminal and civil court.
[Comment ID #28294 Will Be Quoted Here]
Those are good points and good questions.
I will address those in a future post after I am done cogitating on an approach that I think can help address some of these questions and issues.
I certainly don’t mean for mention of forgiveness to be a distraction, but it is clearly part of the full Biblical formula for dealing with this situation. So is protecting people, as you suggest.
More thoughts later when I am done cogitating. I’m just in on a break from mowing way too much grass!
Thanks,
Dan WoodbillyYou have to remember, the church was our life, we were gung ho for god. We did not want to attack the church we were devastated. For many it has taken years to heal and many worship god at home and are afraid church will hurt their walk with god. What i miss most is the singing. You can make fun or judge us all you want but thats the mindset. Now after twenty years we would like to warn others but are told we need to forgive, when we have forgiven. We are attacked again by our brothers and sisters in the church. It hurts.
joebib says “Hear me, Calvin…when we begin to doubt the AUTHENTICITY of the biblical record — due to the so-called “findings†of these scientific/archaeological/historical “experts†— when we begin to pooh-pooh the Bible’s AUTHORITY over our lives, it is a small step indeed, and becomes no big deal, for us to pick and choose which few verses we want to obey today”
mod me down off-topic, but I can’t help responding.
A Muslim would tell you that you don’t believe in the AUTHENTICITY of the Koran because you don’t want to accept it’s AUTHORITY. They would say the Koran still has authority over you even though you don’t believe in it. Is that starting to sound familiar? There is no basic difference between your position and theirs.
Instead of just accepting either of you on faith or “fruit” (a mixed bag for both groups), I’ve studied this pretty intensely, using secular/scholarly, mainstream Christian, and even fundamentalist sources. I won’t go into detail about “Q”, “J”, “E”, “P”, and “D”, but there is plenty of information out there for those who wish to see and hear. I highly recommend this book.
Regarding picking and choosing scripture, if you look at my previous posts, you’ll find many scriptures that even the most hardcore fundamentalist would not follow, because it would be madness. It’s very clear to me that virtually every Christian cherry-picks scripture, using hermeneutics of various types.
I swear that’s the last time I go off-topic. Oh shoot, I just violated Matthew 5:37!
[Comment ID #28298 Will Be Quoted Here]
Mark, I hope you never felt I was attacking you. I wanted things to stay civil, I certainly wasn’t trying to shut you up.
My heart goes out to you in all this. I was just a kid back then (Ken and Laurie’s oldest), so what Gail did didn’t have a whole lot of affect on me directly. But I’ve certainly lived with the wreckage he left behind in other people’s lives!
Calvin you’re mom was a sweetheart and a wonderful christian
Like I said on another post, this is not the first split Doug Cotton has been involved in. When Rhema split, Doug Cotton and Devin Backholm took part of the church and went to Montesano, ten miles away and met in churches, schools, and other places for several years. With Backholm as pastor.
When the pastor who took Bryans place retired, the two factions got back together AND STARTED CLF! With Backholm as pastor.
So you have had two halves of the Rhema split forming ClF .
Now we have another split and we are just supposed to wish everyone ‘the best’ and go about our business. And put it all behind us and not discuss it.
People have had their hearts ripped out by this stuff! Does’nt anybody care?
Oh God
Give me eyes to see as you see
Lest I, as others will
Should pass by someone’s Calvary
And think it just a hill.
This whole thing makes me sick–of course we know that so called pastors
like Gail shouldn’ t have been sent out again-
how many times have we actually seen ‘restoration’ in action-I mean
true Restoration.
I didn’t know that situation personally,
but it doesn’t take alot of common sense to see
that he was not just messed up and had ‘issues’ probably dating back to
childhood but because of his position it did untold damage.
If we don’t learn from the past we are set to repeat it and thats what we see going on still today. i.e. a ton of relatives running churches today !
This has nothing really to do with forgiveness but creating new ways to handle this sin-or maybe Even Handling it at all!
*Insanity definition: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting
new results.
I was told of more bad fruit from this just today –i don’t want to name family
names but it has to do with pornography–so you tell us that it somehow
got handled way back there? Right?!
Maybe the problem goes deeper –we don’t understand what Biblical
forgiveness means–I refer all of you writers to the Boundary Book
found in your local book store–read the difference between forgiveness
and allowing others to cross your personal boundaries again -
i.e. Restoration. That person has to admit their sin honestly and WANT to
be restored to relationship and take the right steps to make it happen.
That is completely separate from forgiving the act and the person. Read the
book before write something on forgiveness I ask and pray
so you will be educated in the difference. My prayer for the entire Body of
Christ these days.
—this is a Christian book just in case you were wondering.
Rhema survivor wrote:
Sounds like you’re saying the crusades never ended.
unscrupulous man The unchecked abuse has never ended. It never will as long as people in power can say” You can’t touch me or i will scream you have unforgiveness”. And the sheep will hang their heads in fear and go on grazing the poisoned grass. To the next generation of sheep the abuse will seem normal. The cusade against abusive pastors was never started. The exception being the Catholic church. As soon as publicity dies down it will be back to normal with them.The symptom was looked at but not the disease. We aren’t even that far yet.
Another question i wrestle with. If a man is called by God to be a pastor , does that mean his family is to be put on the payroll too, like Levi and his sons? It seems that happens in a lot of churches.
What if “pastor” is not an office, not a position intended to rule over a body of people, but rather a gift, given by the Father for the encouragement of believers to live in community and brotherhood; not the ring master of a 90 minute religious presentation, but something intended by God to be organic, natural, carried out transparently among all people; not people who are pledged to submit to the ‘pastor’, but everyone who comes in contact with the person who has the pastoral gift as they go about living and making a living in the world. Imagine “pastor” as an unpaid position, in the same way as those with other ‘spiritual gifts’ are unpaid (those with prophetic gifts, tongues and interpretations, discernment, etc.).
Samaritan:
There is no ‘what if’ about it………..take me to your leader!
reforming heathen: You asked me what I did about it. I WAS at the meeting that mark 9:42 mentioned. As we confronted the Bryans on various issues Gail Bryan repeatedly acted shocked that people would dare to even be asking such questions and speaking against the church in such a way. He used the scripture “touch not God’s annointed many times, never answering the questions asked of him. This meeting took place way before it was discovered that he was having sex with various women in the church. We were getting tired of all of the manipulation, control, legalism (now called spiritual abuse) shepherding, discipling etc. etc. The meeting ended just as it had begun. Gail and Eunice “shocked” that people would even dare to speak out against the church or one of God’s annointed. After that I heard that from the pulpit the congregation was warned to stay away from us and told that we were in rebellion. We were shunned. Our reputation destroyed and our spirits broken.
Rhema – my heart now goes out to you some more but I am so glad you’ve told your story here as are all our friends who stay silent but read. There is a whole book out on how that ‘touch not the annointed’ doctrine is so far outwhack its not even funny. What a convenient cloak to hide behind.
We so relate to your stories you have no idea and it continues….
Recommended reading for everyone on this blog –The Toxic Church–you’ll
feel like you were home and to heal your faith –Toxic Faith.
Alot of toxicity going on but clean up has begun!
The word is out on the street boys & coming to a theatre near you.
I left months before when Eunice told my mom that my ten year old sister and other pre-teens needed to wear padding so their nipples didn,t show. She said it was distracting to some of the men. I figured out who that probably was. This was when the girls were swimming. Our church leaders could not seem to figure it out or didn’t think we should talk about it shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Some are still leading
Unbelieveable! Just when you think you’ve heard it all–have we?
That did happen with the little girls in swimming. What made me leave was all of the sermons on lust of the flesh, the evils of the wordly woman etc. you had to be blind not to see something was wrong or maybe didn’t want to believe it. Your spirit may have been broken rhema survivor but it was the churches reputation that was destroyed.
tiresias —
Well said, and I agree with you 100%, with this exception…that I fail to realize the difference between forgiving and warning.
I DO recognize the difference between the two, and just because some are not doing the former doesn’t mean I don’t endorse doing the latter, as long as it’s done properly/biblically.
By what you say I think you have reached a balance. But that doesn’t mean everyone else here has. Would you defend comments like: “this kind of crap is sure ticking me off!, blood-sucking weasels, we’re waiting for justice,” etc., as exemplifying forgiveness?
———————————————————————
Calvin–
If Muslims say the same thing about their book, it doesn’t change the validity of what I said. If one refuses to recognize the authenticity of ANY book which claims to have a divine origin, one will not accept it as authoritative, either.
But, since we’re believers in Jesus, the Book about whose authenticity we’re concerned is the Bible, without which we’d all be saying “jesus who?”
I’m very familiar with the ideas you mention, put forth by those espousing the existence of the magical, so-called “Quelle” document, the notion of the “Jahwist-Elohist-Priestly-Deuteronomist” hypothesis by Herr Wellhausen, the (so-called) conclusions of “higher” criticism, the claims of the Neo-Orthodoxy crowd in regard to the Scriptures and Heilsgeschichte, etc.
All of which inferences/conjectures/opinions/theories can be satisfactorily addressed and answered from those holding the opposing view.
So, here’s the $64,000 question…
How should we then live??
To give a partial answer, allow me to quote something I previously said in regard to this, under another thread:
Seems like we are in a quandary here. Too bad we don’t have a trustworthy, authoritative standard to refer to which can help us figure all this stuff out.
-joebib
tiresias: I agree with you about wanting more details of the doug cotton situation being released to the public. Some have said to just ask the members that have read the statements and they will be glad to tell you what they say. I have asked three people now and not one of them can really remember what they said . Their answers are so sketchy that it makes me wonder if he really did anything at all. One person did say that they thought the accusations didn’t amount to much of anything. Its thirty years later and I can still remember a lot of the details concerning the Gail Bryan situation and I’ve talked to one of Rod Hills victims and they are very specific about what happened to them. I don’t want to read the statements or know who said what I’d just like to know what the abuses are that they are accusing him of. There are two opposing opinions out on the street depending on who you are talking to. One is that Doug Cotton got ousted for having an anger problem. The other is that his eldership did and inside takeover .
Some will not listen until they are the victim!
My guess is we have been chosen to be the clean up crew. One of the problems I see is even tho its 25 years later and a few of us are talking about how we have made it threw this horrible wreckage. There are hundreds of saints out there that fell threw the cracks how do we reach out to them.
What is the Lord asking us to do about it? If anything in all these years has not one of those leaders ever contacted me or my family, or any one else that I know of that were spiritually devastated. I have never heard from them again..
Things just went on, business as usual.
Was it my place to reconcile myself to the place church?
After we went threw the proper biblical procedure. Taking our concerns to the man in charge, then taking a room full of witnesses. we were accused of being rebellion, they questioned weather we were even born again. we were called us heretics. same as what survivor said. Quoted scriptures on Gods anointed. This all took place before Rhema went under.
It took years of searching for answers, doubting my own salvation, my own ability to hear from the Lord. To reach a place of forgiveness, To restore my relationship with the Lord. Even tho I know in my heart I had done nothing wrong. I was a brand new Christian at the time and wanted to serve the Lord and had the utmost respect for the authority I was under.
I have since been seeking and I did find him. They told me that my heart was wicked and I could not trust it. The lord has now taught me…. He lives in my heart, it is his holy of hollies the place where he abides. The very center of my being from which he lives. I have been made clean, white as snow, when he looks at me he sees me as perfect through the blood of Jesus,
I am justified by my faith in who he is and what he has done through the cross.
My justification has nothing to do with my worthiness, my ability to keep church laws or standards, the opinions of any other human being. When I stand before the Lord I stand alone as Jesus as my redeemer the lover of my sole he is my defence I need no other. Because of who Jesus is I am worthy to be called his chosen one. He is my beloved and I am his.
There will always be those that don’t understand and cannot feel your pain.
I believe the Lord allowed us to suffer this to bring hope to others that they will know his word is true. We can trust his promises. And He will never leave you or forsake you.
joebib says, “Seems like we are in a quandary here. Too bad we don’t have a trustworthy, authoritative standard to refer to which can help us figure all this stuff out.”
Might be nice, but just because someone claims this magic book does not make it true. If we were talking about the Koran or the Book of Mormon you would agree with me, I’m sure.
If we use empiricism and reason, these claims about the Bible fail as well. This is very clear, and the reason fundamentalist Christians have had to reject empiricism and scholarship as valid ways to find the truth. This is very bad for all involved!
It’s not just evolution that contradicts a fundamentalist interpretation of the two creation stories in Genesis. George Hutton, Father of Geology and a Christian, discovered deep geological time. Mendel, a Augustinian priest, discovered genetics, which led to evolutionary development and the best support for evolution yet. The list goes on and on, and there are a lot of Christians on it! Times are changing.
But again mod me down off topic. joebib, this is probably a useless conversation, but if you wish to email me I am grokcalvin at the domain gmail.com.
[Comment ID #28320 Will Be Quoted Here]
The allegations that I read specifically stated anger issues involving yelling at staff and Elders and members, making totally inappropriate sexual comments regarding female staff members and one instance of physical assault consisting of putting his hands around the neck of a staff member while screaming at them.
Is that plain enough for you?
And here is a suggestion for the people who insist that the members of the new Harbor City Church be warned of the allegations against Doug Cotton.
Print up the allegations. Make 100 copies. Put them on cars in the parking lot of the new church.
That should relieve the obligation to warn.
Shoot, make it EASIER… just print out the URL of this thread and leave THAT on the cars in the parking lot!
reforming heathen: I think printing up copies of the allegations is a great idea. At least we would be armed with some information. I’m not really worried about the 100 people that followed him to his new church. I think they are making an informed decision since they were there when this all happened. The people I’m worried about are all of the innocent ones coming in looking for a church home and have no idea what they’ve just walked into. Of course the best case scenerio would be for Doug to tell them himself as he gets honest with himself and embraces the truth of what he has done. Changed people usually talk about what the Lord has done in their lives and the journey they took to get there. Hint: If it looks to good to be true it usually is.
Mark or mark:
As evidenced by your above remarks — and others I could quote — I notice that when you have nothing constructive or useful to say, you resort to name-calling and cruelty. Is this your concept of how a believer in Jesus should act towards someone who disagrees with you??
Someone says something in their post which you disagree with, and you respond by mocking them.
Or, misrepresenting what they say.
Or, calling them names.
This is a common tactic around here, as you’re by no means the only person on this blog, or even this thread, who does this.
Which is really sad, as good people with something useful to say, like Tom Sparks for instance, just got fed up with it and left.
Too bad the mods continue to allow it to go on, but oh well, it’s their blog.
And, it’s not just them…I notice the majority of readers and posters on these threads read all of this name-calling, attacks, etc., and say nothing or little to those who do it, regardless of what side of the question they are on. I wonder if they therefore endorse this behavior.
Well, I’m saying something to you about it, as I’ve said many times before.
Mark 9:42, you once asked me if God expects more of me. Point taken.
I now ask you — all of you who do this — the same question.
-joebib
Joe bub
You’re a JACK-ASS! Go back and read your own long winded, whimpering, whinny, sarcastic comments….grow up! Lighten up! your to stiff necked…
Your a black and white thinker and will never get what is really being said here.
P. S. Your posts are boring, way to long to waste time reading.
Alright. I’ve gotten complaints, so I’m shutting this thread down.