CLF Update
Posted on October 23rd, 2006 by catalyst into the Uncategorized categoryAs you may recall, Christian Life Fellowship is in the process of removing their Senior Pastor, Doug Cotton, from church leadership. The elders of the church allege Mr. Cotton has anger issues, and they convinced him to resign. However, the eldership and congregation ran into resistance from MFI, an Association of Ministers to which Doug is a member. MFI is fighting to reinstate Mr. Cotton as Senior Pastor. You can read about it here.
On Saturday, I received an email update from a reader close to the situation.
Thanks for having a discussion about what happened at Christian Life Fellowship and Doug Cotton. It really served a purpose. I wanted to let you know some developments. The elders of CLF have decided to have a congregational vote to officially fire Doug. It will be on November 29th. They have over 80 pages from 18 or so people to present.
Then on Sunday the same reader sent me this:
Just got word today that Doug Cotton changed his mind and is not going to ask for a vote. He has resigned.
I can only imagine the Congregation stood by the elders decision. And Doug Cotton knew he was going to lose a vote. While this is likely best for the church, it is a bit of a blow to MFI. As evidently, Wendell Smith had his church counsel represent Doug during this proceeding.
The other weird thing I found out recently is that Doug has an attorney. This attorney was provided by Wendell Smith. This lawyer is on Wendell's church staff. From what I understand he is not a pastor who just happened to be a lawyer. He is on staff as a lawyer. I have never heard a church that had a lawyer on staff. Is it cheaper to have an elder on staff then to pay as you go? Anyway, kind of strange.
It is kind of strange. But ultimately, a good experience. Christians seem to have this mentality that nothing can go wrong with their church. The church is perfect. When in reality, churches are run by humans, and humans make mistakes.
And in the end, this was probably a good learning experience for everyone. Hopefully, CLF will find a pastor who embodies Christ and serves the congregation's needs. Hopefully, Mr. Cotton is able to learn to control his anger. And hopefully, MFI and Wendell Smith learn to submit to the wishes of churches to which they are not members.
October 23rd, 2006 at 6:26 am
Having a lawyer on staff at a church would lead me to believe they are engaged in practices that might step on peoples’ toes… So running the toe stomping by the lawyer first …they can make sure they are PC about the process??
Let’s hope Pastor Cotton did some knee time and he and God decided the correct thing to do was to finally honor his word and actually resign. NOT that the MaFIa wielded any clout here and tucked tails and ran.
October 23rd, 2006 at 6:43 am
Can’t imagine that the lawyer is truly “on staff”, but rather a church member who lends his services freely to the church. The “on staff” remark is just boastful, I imagine.
In a situation like CLF/Cotton, the lawyer is there only for sabre-rattling - to instill fear and intimidation - Cotton/MFI’s best hope was that CLF would back down.
Bravo CLF!
October 23rd, 2006 at 10:09 am
MaFIa…love it.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:39 pm
Don’t all business’s have a lawyer on staff? Oh sorry I forgot we’re
talking about a church not a business.
October 23rd, 2006 at 9:59 pm
as a member of CLF…i am just soooo glad that this mess is over and we can get on with serving the Lord and doing His Work. But i am saddened by what i have seen in Doug Cotton. …truly saddened.
October 25th, 2006 at 6:44 am
I think it is important for people (especially those caught in the turmoil down at CLF) to TRY to be objective, and know that humans tend to view things through their hurts.
Having a lawyer does not mean there will be a lawsuit. Lawyers advise, negotiate, interpret, and mediate. They do not always sue, and some never step foot into a courtroom.
I don’t know if City Bible Church has a paid lawyer on staff, a volunteer lawyer on staff, or a staff member who is also a lawyer.
It is good practice for any organization to have available legal counsel to make sure that the organization complies with myriad state and federal laws (employment, tax, records/reporting, etc.).
Having said that, it does seem intrusive, meddlesome, and counter-productive that a mega-church outside of Seattle would dispatch an attorney to participate in the internal proceedings of a small church out in the boondocks.
How does this foster a continued relationship between the churches and the local bodies of Christ?
Does Wendell Smith and his attorney smell a conpiracy against Doug Cotton?
Have they discerned that all of the elders of CLF, its staff, reportedly 18 members/families (those who issued statements) have all jointly conspired to remove a pastor?
I have seen know reports of any fact-finding efforts by Wendell Smith or his lawyer.
Is it because they are the Big Church that they can do this?
Have they also inserted themselved into the affairs of churches in Lynden, Battleground, Colville, Clarkston and other smaller communties across the state?
It must be nice to be a Superpower.
October 27th, 2006 at 8:04 pm
So is he running for office?
October 27th, 2006 at 9:07 pm
bring on the krypton
October 27th, 2006 at 9:15 pm
Wendell Smith? What office would he run for?
Seems he might carry a little baggage, wouldn’t you think?
October 27th, 2006 at 10:24 pm
This is sadly the case. He was provided services free of charge to Doug as did two other attorneys. CLF was forced into hiring their own. The elders wanted to work things out without them but Doug insisted. It was rather interesting. The elders exhausted every avenue for reconciliation but Doug would not move ahead with anything until he was assured by the elders that he would be Senior Pastor once again. When they offered the counseling again, he wanted to know if he went to counseling if he would be senior pastor again. Obviously he still doesn’t think he has a problem. When the elders sat down with the 80 plus pages of “charges,” his attitude was it was no big deal. Hurting God’s flock is no big deal? Since when?
Please remember our church in your prayers. Please pray for healing of those who have been hurt by his anger and those who were hurt from this situation. Please pray for reconciliation for all involved. Pray that the blinders be removed from Doug’s eyes and the Spirit can minister to his heart. God truly gave this man a gift for ministery and it is sad to see it stiffled in this way. In advance, thank you for your prayers.
October 27th, 2006 at 10:59 pm
So sorry for CLF - our hearts go out to you -especially since it had to
‘get legal’ isn’t this wrong on so many levels? Aren’t we admonished
not to bring a ‘judge’ into a situation if at all possible because than we have to
abide his decision.
Casual Observer do tell -what baggage? Is there something you know that
can help us all understand what is going on behind the scenes?
As you can tell we’re struggling to make sense of this power play.
October 28th, 2006 at 10:13 am
I was responding to the comment about someone running for office.
I assumed that the comment was about Wendell Smith possibly running.
Perhaps North by Northwest could clarify what was meant by the comment about someone running for office.
If Wendell Smith runs, I assume his meddling in the affairs of other churches would be baggage.
That’s all.
So, NxNW, to whom were your referring?
Thanks,
C.O.
October 28th, 2006 at 10:48 am
[…] In CLF Update , Casual Observer asked about Wendell Smith running for office: I was responding to the comment about someone running for office … I assumed that the comment was about Wendell Smith possibly running … If Wendell Smith runs, I assume his meddling in the affairs of other churches would be baggage. […]
October 28th, 2006 at 10:53 pm
Casual observer -the comment about running for office was just a remark
made when you asked if they were involved in other small church’s business
and when you commented you have seen the ‘findings’ they have gathered.
This reminds me of someone preparing to run for an office of some type but I was kidding –however I have wondered if he is preparing to take Dick Iverson’s position some day as some have hinted at in the blog.
October 28th, 2006 at 10:58 pm
Its obvious if that happens than new tactics will be in place–
intimidation was enough before but now its turning into Boston Legal or rather
Seattle Legal.
October 29th, 2006 at 7:42 am
Someone else on this discussion had reported seeing the “findings” of the church leadership in this matter.
Regardless of the “findings” of what actually happened, and the necessity to end what Cotton was doing, people who truly place their hope in Jesus Christ will need to move to the point of forgiveness.
It is appropriate to act to end harmful behavior. It is also appropriate — and expected by God — to forgive.
I saw a program last night with Charles Stanley, who was talking about forgiving those “who commit evil.”
He said that sometimes the evil is committed by those who profess to knowing and following Jesus Christ, and that makes it more challenging to forgive them. I assume this is so because we do not expect brothers and sisters in Christ to commit evil against us.
Stanley pointed out that we suffer double when we do not forgive. First, we suffer from the offense, then we suffer from holding the pain and unforgiveness.
I certainly would expect that the people of CLF (or other churches in similar straits) would have some healing to find, even after forgiving their pastor for what he has done to them.
But that journey starts with forgiveness.
I am praying for the people of CLF that God will strengthen them, give them peace and wisdom, and give them deep understanding in this matter.
Despite his actions, we should all also pray for their pastor, that he will find forgiveness, peace, and renewal. His journey must start with taking responsibility for his actions.
C.O.
October 30th, 2006 at 11:12 am
Absolutely do we believe and know and have had to forgive ourselves and those that hurt us.
If you’ve been on this blog very long you’ll catch the fact its here to help mop up
the faithful that were left — like those who had been on staff with these
powerhouse types–like elders, group leaders, evangelists –all types.
But there does have to be hospital time with those who understand to truly
get your feelings out.
It seems like we have to say this over and over –depending on how deep the involvment or deep the hurt you will have to find a place of like minded
experienced believers to who get it and who can help you work your forgiveness through.
Does total healing and forgiveness happen with one pass through –not usually. If only that was true how easy it would be. Most true healing from
spiritual wounds starts with forgiveness and then processing comes one layer at a time.
Its like telling a burn victim just apply a bandaid and go on about your business. All injuries are not the same in their time of healing.
According to the Spiritual Abuse book –wounds of the spirit can take the longest to heal because they go to your very core of your being — the place most precious and sensitive is our spirit. When that is wounded it may just take some time to heal and process. Sorry but this is true.
CLF is the tiniest part of this whole picture –its just the flavor of the month.
Thank goodness this blog is trying to address the big picture!
October 30th, 2006 at 1:03 pm
It has been five years now and I have finally stopped calling down “fire” on the wretched SOBs every time I drive past their evil empire … is that a sign of healing?
October 30th, 2006 at 4:17 pm
Warm and Fuzzy –you made me day! I needed the laugh your comment provides-see laughter is the best medicine by the way you’re not the only one who has used that technique!
October 31st, 2006 at 7:03 am
Perhaps a sign of forgetfulness, distraction, or frustration that the fire has not actually descended.
On its face, it does not appear to be neither forgiveness nor healing.
C.O.
October 31st, 2006 at 8:12 am
Casual Obscurer:
Watch out! Them triple negatives threaten the blog-space continuum!
October 31st, 2006 at 11:48 am
I guess I said that wrong.
It appears to be neither forgiveness nor healing.
Sometimes, it does not appear to be property English, at least on my part.
My HS English teacher would chastise me for that last post.
It proves that all of us, including those in ministry, can use correction now and then!
Nice play on the name, too!
C.O.
November 2nd, 2006 at 5:54 pm
Quoting Dick Iverson in his apparently dimished classic, “Maintaining balance when winds of doctrine blow”. Chapter four ” Discerning imbalance”
pg 100, #12. Watch out for doctrines that diminish the power of the cross and the work of REPENTANCE in the believer (read: Pastor) I Cor 2:2.
#13 Watch out for doctrines that are not willing to be questioned or tested I Thess 5:21, I John 4:1.
Pg.101 # 14 Watch out for doctrines that lead to spiritual pride of exclusivism, Matt 24:26-27.
#15 Watch out for doctrines that elevate or promote the individual above Christ, John 3:30. Pg. 102 What out when the vessel does not confirm the message, Matt 7:15-20.
According to Brother Dick’s own writing there seems to be some doctrinal problems with MFI and their mishandling/meddling in the CLF matter. It goes to show what happens when small deviations in the course of a church or organization are allowed to continue over time. Just like in navigation, the smallest deviations, given enough time end up in large deviations. And then you are just plain lost.
November 3rd, 2006 at 9:18 am
JayGee,
I’m sure that book had a ghost writer. Your post is probably the first time Dick got to read it.
Good work.
August 5th, 2007 at 5:45 am
I talked to someone today that is very close to the Doug Cotton situation. They said that several people on the eldership also had anger and control problems. One had even been in counseling for years about it. Sounds kinda like the pot calling the kettle black. Maybe they all need to resign and let some healthier people come in and lead.
August 5th, 2007 at 6:36 am
Actually, Rhema, the CLF elders are searching for more people to join the board of elders. The current elders know their strengths and weaknesses, especially after the ousting of Doug Cotton.
Based on what I have seen, any personality problems exhibited by the CLF elders are minuscule compared to Doug’s. Doug Cotton thought that he, as pastor, could do anything he wanted to. He thought the board of elders worked for him. In actuality and according to the church bylaws, the pastor works for the board.
Doug, at least as of a year ago, was a charismatic speaker but not a servant leader. He kept people in line by using anger, lying, and manipulation. He wanted to shrink the size of the elder board so there would be less accountability. Whether Doug has changed in the past year, I don’t know.
In contrast, the current CLF elders understand that they are not perfect. No elder, or Christian for that matter, is. They are open to new people joining leadership in official and unofficial capacities. They are open to talking to people and hearing new ideas. They know that they won’t have the answers to every question, but do their best anyway. They seem real in their faith and genuine in their lives. It’s a refreshing change.
August 5th, 2007 at 6:39 am
Rhema, I’d be very suspect talking to anyone close to Doug Cotton…they lie…or, if they don’t lie, they’ve been lied to, and are believing it and telling it–thus lying….:o)
August 5th, 2007 at 6:59 am
The person I talked to wasn’t close to Doug Cotton. They said they knew certain elders and from their perspective they had the same problems.
August 5th, 2007 at 7:52 am
I drove by the old Alexander Young school a few days ago.(The future home of Harbor City Church.) There was a few cars parked in front and one of the license plates read- RMA-002. Was this a sign? lol! It is refreshing to hear that the current leaders are honest about where they are at and not coming across as being perfect. Had Gail and Eunice Bryan and Rod and Luanne Hill been at least honest about where they were there wouldn’t be so much confusion and dissolusionment.These power types seem to always like to come across as a cut above all the rest when all along they struggle just like everyone else. I remember a teaching from mfi that told pastors and their wives not to make friends or reveal any weakness to their congregations so they wouldn’t be hurt by people. The rest of us were taught to be completely transparent while the leadership always had that protective wall around them. Very condecending if you ask me. And no one can figure out why these relationships don’t work. lol! Speaking of Rod Hill I heard he’s been living in Mexico selling condos and is in leadership in a church down there. I wonder if that church is aware of the things he’s been doing in several other churches prior to coming there. Where is all of the accountability for pastors like him? No one seems to care once they leave their church and go to another one. Will Doug Cotton be open and honest about his anger and control issuses with people coming to his new church? Will anyone be able to ask questions and have them answered so they can know what kind of a group they are joining? I’ve had it said to me if you find a perfect church don’t join it then it wouldn’t be perfect anymore! That’s right but I would sure like to find one with some openness and honesty. If what tiresias is saying is true maybe clf is on its way to becoming a safe place for people. Wow! What a concept! Church a safe place. hmmmm…….
August 5th, 2007 at 10:17 am
To Tiresias, Hungry on the Harbor, and Rhema Survivor:
Have any of you remained behind at your churches (CLF or Rhema) to change your situation for the better?
If so, what are you doing in that regard?
In terms of the leadership at each church being better than the previous, how can you know? Is it because the new leaderhip tells you that things are different?
Did not Doug Cotton tell you things were OK when they were not? Wasn’t he believed before he was removed from CLF?
Wasn’t Rod Hill believed before he was removed from Rhema?
How can a person be sure that the same issues and patterns are not resident in the individual or group that follows the one that was removed?
Could it be that the congregants at CLF and Rhema so desperately want to believe things are better that they eagerly accept it as so without anything to support that acceptance?
August 5th, 2007 at 10:54 am
Word in Time….
As one who HAS stayed at CLF I can tell you that most, if not all, that are here are LESS likely to just believe something because leadership tells you. And they are more careful about what they believe and what they see than before. And that is one of the many good things that have come from the change. That and the fact that the Holy Spirit is allowed to move when and how He wants . The move ends when God Says rather than a leader. which is something we are STILL trying to get used to. It has not been that way for nearly 15 years. Very refreshing. We are cautious…but open to the MOVE and INSTRUCTION of God whatever that is.
so i can tell you from those I know and for what I know of CLF at least…that NO we are not so anxious for change that we will believe whatever leadership tells us. It is quite the opposite. And just as Jesus wants.
August 5th, 2007 at 11:05 am
So how will you assure that this new crop of leaders (with some of the same ol’ same ol’) does not manipulate and damage the Lord’s people like the leaders who have been replaced?
August 5th, 2007 at 12:35 pm
WORD IN TIME.. why are you trying to shift the blame of the mess with DC and CLF away from him and to the church? That is a nasty thing to do.
People underneath leadership can only do so much.. called trickle down effect. If the leader wears shorts, you cannot demand that the followers were tuxedos and prom dresses….
August 5th, 2007 at 12:48 pm
I’m not at all trying to shift blame from the leaders who have been removed. They are responsible for their actions.
Please forgive me if my previous post suggested that those who abused parishoners should not be held accountable.
It seems like abuse occurs, they are removed, and then we tend to pretend everything is now better (so let’s just move on…). But the underlying issues don’t seem to get resolved, do they?
But all of us in these situations of leadership abuse were of the impression, at some point, that the leaders were godly people who were doing things right. We could never have imagined things turning out the way they did.
Perhaps now jaded from my own experience with church leadership abuse, I now find myself wondering how we can discern whether the “replacements” will turn out the same as the “replaced.”
I am not looking to point fingers, here; I am looking for a sincere discussion that will lead us to being better protected from those in leadership who supress input, manipulate from the pulpit, discourage discussion, and leave us shell-shocked with things fall apart.
I don’t have the answers; I am hoping that discussion here will allow those of us participating (from all across this nation) to better protect ourselves from these situations happening again?
Does anyone have any ideas of how we can do this?
Thanks,
WiT
August 5th, 2007 at 1:01 pm
Its admirable that a church finally booted a pastor who was out of hand. I have to give credit to clf for for standing upto a problem. more than most churhes are doing.
August 5th, 2007 at 1:36 pm
I would start by carefully reading through the gospels, paying close attention to what Jesus said and did. Make a list of things He said to do, and start walking it out. Spend time in prayer, and listen. If you are not used to hearing His voice, start by asking simple questions, like “Does Jesus love me?”
Let Jesus lead you instead of some other ‘leader’. (See Matthew 23:10 in NASB)
Make Luke 17:21/Col 1:27 real to yourself, and then find others who are doing the same.
I have not reached the place I want to be yet, but I am far, far from where I started. He walks with me and talks with me.
August 5th, 2007 at 2:50 pm
Admirable, yes, that a church would remove someone abusive.
If I understand correctly here, from this and other strings of posts, Rhema Church went through this twice, first with their pastor Bryan and then with their pastor Hill.
Why were they vulnerable for the second go-round?
How many times did CLF go through this?
How is it that multiple congregations go through this abuse from the same pastor? How is it that a single congregation goes through this with multiple pastors/elders?
Is the problem, in part that our churches are out there by themselves? It seems that these are mostly independent, non-denomicational congregations that are discussed on this board.
I’ve not, in the past, been a fan of denominationalism, as it seemed to be a divider in the body of Christ that He did not direct. It seemed to me that denominations (and so many of them) were just an indication of the lack of unity in the body of Christ.
Yet, here we are, even in the independent churches that detest denomicational labels. We preferred to call ourselves “Christian” churches and avoid Presbyterian, Lutheran, Baptist, Catholic, AG, Foursquare, Episcopalian, Church of God, etc. etc.
Same problem, though: Abuse and splits.
We have swept things under the rug, much like the Catholic church did with abuse by priests, until things got so bad they were paying out millions of dollars in settlements. Such settlements would destroy these local churches, except perhaps the megas who have millions and millions in property holdings.
I agree with the post about seeking Jesus, reading the Word, etc. Good advice from all of us.
In addition, we are called to fellowship together, to not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing.
How can we make it safe to meet together?
What is the value of a body of believers fellowshipping together if we cannot let down our gaurd and trust?
I want to feel safe with my local church, yet I don’t know how to make sure that the abuse we have escaped is not still resident in the new pastors and the carry-forward elders.
Has anyone on here found answers to these questions?
Seems you all up there have had lots of these situatons, almost like a recycling program gone terribly bad.
Someone must have come through the battles with some better insight as to how to avoid a repeat.
Anyone got some help?
Thanks,
WiT
August 5th, 2007 at 4:03 pm
I guess I’d better clarify. Gail Bryan was pastoring Rehma Fellowship about thirty years ago when he had to step down when it was discovered that he was sleeping with women in the congregation. They brought in a new pastor and Devin Bacholm and Doug Cotton split off from that church and started a new one in Montesano.Some years later the two congregations got back together and started CLF.
Rod Hill was the associate Pastor at Cornerstone Community Church in Aberdeen about ten years ago when he split off from that and started one called River of Life in South Aberdeen. He pastored that church just a few years before leaving town and going to Port Angeles becoming involved right away in a church up there. After leaving River of Life several women have come forward saying they had a sexual relationship with him. That church hasn’t split but some of the people still side with Rod maintaining a long distance relationship with him and his wife. They think that he was seduced. Others think he’s a predator since others have come forward with information that he had done this before coming to Grays Harbor.
August 5th, 2007 at 4:08 pm
Even denominations are not exempt from abuse. No matter how many heads are on the way up, eventually there is a pinnacle, and that human is capable of corruption. Anyone who thinks a denomination is exempt from that possibility has little understanding of the flesh.
How can you be sure that the newspaper carrier isn’t just casing your house to rob it? that the teacher of your children is not a pedophile? that the mechanic who worked on your car really told you the truth about the cost? that the cook in your local restaurant hasn’t poisoned your food? My word, man, this is an evil world, but generally we are able to get through most human interactions without being totally schizophrenic.
Bullies and abusers only abuse the weak to hide their own weaknesses. As long as we are still cowering around waiting for someone to ‘get us’, they will eventually. If we get strong, and place clear boundries around us of acceptable behavior and communication, the abusers will either look elsewhere for a more cooperative victim, or their view of us will change from contempt and/or jealousy to respect, and they will grow up.
Hey, stranger things have happened…:o)
August 6th, 2007 at 1:32 am
How does that old hymn go…. “My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus’ blood and righteousness. I dare not trust the sweetest frame but wholly lean on Jesus name.”
We can only trust other people as we see them following Christ.
Seriously, I find myself questioning the whole clergy/laity mentality that has permeated the church in many places…denominational and non-denominational alike. This structure (the pastor & his core group versus the congregational paeons) is unhealthy and unbiblical when we look at the structure of the new-testament church (more intimate “home” settings, elder led rather than just pastor-led, whole body functioning in their various giftings rather than a select few). A church can be a healthy, vibrant place so long as the pastor and eldership realize that:
1. They too are sinners in need of Christ to save them, and that they only in the position they are in BY HIS GRACE. They are there to serve the body, not themselves.
2. They don’t walk in “special anointing” that gives them the right to build kingdoms where their own children automatically “inherit the throne”.
3. They aren’t a “one man show” (or one family show, for that matter). They need to encourage the rest of the body to walk in their giftings…even if it gets “messy” sometimes and falls short of the goal of a “perfect” Sunday morning show.
4. They need to realize that “absolute power corrupts absolutely” and walk humbly before the Lord. The “power trip” leads to abuse of power, sexual sin, manipulation, etc.
Those are a few thoughts to start with.
August 6th, 2007 at 6:20 am
August 8th, 2007 at 9:19 am
The same thing can happen in the “intimate home settings.” There are always people who want to be in control. You need to find a good counselor that understands spiritual abuse and get educated about this stuff. Then you’ll be able to recognize healthy people when you see them. Years ago when I left Rehma I went to Doug Cotton to talk to him and try and make some sense out of what had happened. (I tried on several occasions to go back to church there.) It was now CLF. He told me that although Gail Bryan had fallen into sexual sin all of the teaching was good. My family and a lot of others left way before that was discovered. We left (yes, after going to Pastor Bryan and Eunice themselves) because of all of the control, manipulation, elitism, spiritual abuse) Others told us that they were warned from the pulpit to stay away from us that we were in rebellion. Imo because Doug Cotton and his eldership at the time never looked beyond the obvious and didn’t have a problem with the core issues, thirty years later it bit him in the ass. I hope the eldership he leaves behind truly seeks to build on a whole new foundation.
August 8th, 2007 at 1:50 pm
So sorry about your bad experiences R.S. –you’ve come to a good place where
we all so get it. When you talk about Eunice do you mean Eunice Bryant–
or is this name just similar. Her son is married to Iverson’s daughter and
they were well emeshed in PBible Temple. Both of her sons now are MFI
pastors—is this one and the same?
Signed Having to know
August 8th, 2007 at 2:34 pm
having to know… Yup
August 9th, 2007 at 7:48 am
I saw on another blog that Ed Mason is the principal of CBC’s christian school. He’s married to their daughter Dorcas if that helps. If it’s the same Ed Mason that is! Ed is from Grays Harbor originally. He was on staff down here when Gail Bryan was pastoring as was everyone else in his family that was old enough to hold a position. I think the two boys might have still been in bible school when he was here but his two daughters were married and living here at that time.
August 9th, 2007 at 3:41 pm
I can’t believe what I’m reading now but I’m more convinced than ever that
everything that is covered up will be exposed eventually. When I read this I am
amazed that I sat under Eunice’s teaching later on as a widow and nothing
ever came out except how perfect many family members seemed to be.
I remember it being built up when one of them got married that they had never kissed or held hands ect. and that seemed odd to me then. So now I read that
it was being built up of righteousness when all this was ancient history??
What else went on up there and when did Gail pass away. The people who
are now being hammered at his Church of the Harvest –his son’s church
another abusive situation. When will the madness end. I just talked to one
of their refugees on Sunday about how we’re so glad we don’t have
pastors who have about 15 people acting as an Entourage any longer.
Unbelieveable –yet expose away Rhema because you are helping more than
you know. Lets hope others will get the message from the ‘roots’ here.
Bless em with truth I pray.
August 9th, 2007 at 10:33 pm
eunice knew of her husband being caught in two other churches before coming to grays harbor, where he again slept with women of the church, women alone who he had counceled to leave their husbands. he then began coming to there home to chop firewood,paint,mow the grass etc. He then proceeded to seduce them.some of you like joebib will point out their percent of blame but he was good at what he did,destroying people. I thought it was odd when he told my mom that my eight year old sister and other young girls needed to wear padding during swimming because people could see her nipples. lot of the teaching was on sexual sin . His weak spot. I left shortly after.told elders who did not listen.
August 10th, 2007 at 7:54 am
this reaks of Jimmy Swaggart –teaching on the very sin he was struggling with.
You’ve given illumination like I cannot say –once again I wonder how it was
truly dealt with if ever esp. in light of the fact that both sons are now Pastors
and the one church is as controlling as ever -sending people over the edge.
Do we like to have to write on these things –no! Do I even like to read about
it–no! But years later it explains alot and I am amazed how much was covered up–by the time she got to us he sounded like he was an angel –all those
stories on and on……thank you for telling us why people couldn’t be real and what walls were being built up to cover up this sin.
Imagine if truth really came out and leaders could help others with the same problems they face in their families instead of trying to come off
as ‘Super Sized Saints’ living so way above all of us.
Now more than ever I realize it was a philosophy that was and still is being taught –at least as Capital Christian Center. And on and on it goes………….
Any other information would be helpful -just to understand. Do you know
where he was when he passed away–was it up there at the time–and
who out there knows why they came down to Boise to start this church–
that plant alone has reams of problems as it caused a split in this church
here that has never healed. thank you for being open –your words of truth
bring healing.
Lurkers: What was worse -Watergate or the Coverup
Clinton’s sin or his total denial of all wrong doing
Which caused the most damage to the people around them?
August 10th, 2007 at 10:08 am
WE did not know it at the time, but before Gail came to grays harbor in the late70s, he had devastated a church in Idaho. Maybe it was their home turf. The real question is how many of these mfi pastors are hurting rather than helping the local churches. Look carefully at their attitude towards women ,the secrecy and their disdain for church members. How do they get their elders to cover for them? Are they really our servants or mini rock stars? Why do members of the congregation side with them and become their apologetics? why when we go to church to meet new friends and worship god,does our speech change ( hello brother etc.),and we are anything but our real selves?
August 11th, 2007 at 10:50 pm
Finaly getting answers: I don’t know where Gail Bryan was when he died. After he left Rehma some time later I heard he was pastoring a church in Port Angeles. I think he did the same thing in that church too. But really I really don’t know much about what happened with him after he left I was too busy seeing doctors and counselors to find out why I began having panic attacks while attending there! I’m sorry to hear that you and others have been affected by this. Tell me more about the church in Idaho. What do you know about the churches his sons are pastoring? Why has the split in your church never been healed?
August 12th, 2007 at 12:58 am
(Rhema Survivor said: “What do you know about the churches his sons are pastoring?”)
Mark’s church is just outside of Boise, ID: http://www.coharvest.org/
Dave’s church is 45 minutes north of Sacramento, in Live Oak, CA: http://www.churchofgladtidings.com/
Their mom Eunice, still widowed I believe, also attends GT, working with the Seniors.
-joebib
August 12th, 2007 at 4:37 am
FSO —
I recognize you and your family have suffered hurts from the past, as well as have taken offence at injustices/abuses done to others. You’ve made that abundantly clear.
But, I’m wondering…
When is enough, enough?
How many more times must/will the same sins perpetrated by the same people be repeated here on this blog, before the hunger to do so will be satiated? 10 times? 20 times?
I can’t imagine how the continual re-hashing, by the same several posters, of the same sordid stuff — stuff that took place, what, a couple of decades ago? — which these people did, can possibly be viewed as somehow serving/helping/edifying the Body of Christ? If it does, could someone please explain that to me, within a biblical context?
Especially since surely, by now, everyone on this board has already heard/read/know more about the situation than we need to, inasmuch as their name, their wife’s name, their daughter’s names, their son-in-law’s name, their sons’ names, and so forth, are repeatedly mentioned.
About the only thing we haven’t yet heard is how many positions described in the Kama Sutra those engaged in said behavior were successful in achieving, but I’m sure someone out there knows and can’t wait to tell us. For the record, I’m going with 7.
Based on the nature of what is posted, it seems some of us are choosing to stay in a state of bitterness/non-forgiveness.
How many more years will we allow past offences to burden us down? Instead, why don’t we pray for those who sinned — earnestly pray for their souls, pray for those people affected by their sins, and let God begin to heal all of our spirits, and let the truth of this verse change us?…
“32 And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.” (Ephesians 4:32, NASB)
If we, as Christians, can’t forgive, how are we any different from the world?
————————————————————————
FSO said: “…some of you like joebib will point out their percent of blame….”
These cheap-shots really do smack of pettiness.
If you must quote my remarks piecemeal, then kindly do so in their original context, or have the courtesy to explain why I said what I said, and I will try to do the same for you. Fair enough?
-joebib
August 12th, 2007 at 9:50 am
My blog was in response to having to know.
It sounds like the Bryan clan is at it again. If they are out there destroying churches Joe I will talk about it for the next 50 years until I stop them and others who abuse the church.
I dealt with people like you Jobib 25years ago when Gail Bryan was devastating a church and the Joebibs were saying “don’t talk about it we will hurt the church.” “shh be loving and forgiving.” “god will expose the leadership.” The people are the church Joe. If church parishioners are hurting then we must speak out. Our silence is what hurts the church. Our silence had been deafening over the years.
The reason MFI pastors who have elitist teachings are still devastating churches with impunity is because of apologetics who use the bible to cover up for them.
Pharisees used scripture against Jesus to shut him up. It is no surprise they are still at it. I will speak out loud and clear for as long as it takes Joe. My loyalty is to God not to Bible Temple.
August 12th, 2007 at 9:55 am
joebib: this has nothing to do with forgiveness as I’ve already stated. I am responding to finally getting answers who seems to have suffered similar abuses or knows others who have. It sounds these abuses might be happening right now or at least more recently than thirty years ago which has been one of my concerns. How far reaching is the mfi, bible temple teachings? How many people are still being affected? Right now! Today! I’m not bitter or unforgiving about the past I’m concerned about others that might be suffering the same kind of spiritual abuse right now! Why would the other poster be calling themselves FINALLY GETTING ANSWERS if this is such public knowledge? Had bible temple and the Bryans been honest about who they were and been a little more real we wouldn’t be here today. What Gail Bryan did was an abuse of power. Using his position and authority to prey on his own flock. People that trusted him. His wife and family knew about all of this. For them to come across as Super Sized Saints” was wrong. I believe they bought into the MFI “image at all cost” to like so many other pastors and their familys are doing in the MFI churches. That’s where the damage is coming from. That’s the point I’m trying to make here. You guys are upset about the prosperity teaching. Others are upset about some other aspect of MFI and bible temples abuse of power. It’s all wrong. It’s all just as damaging. When you and others talk about and “rehash” the prosperity teaching and everything else people are experiencing in MFI churches that seems to be ok. I’m sorry that you guys just got your pocketbooks robbed not your wives ,sisters, or daughters!
August 12th, 2007 at 10:47 am
It sounds to me like people were silenced for 25 years. Joe your statement is pretty sick:
I’ve noticed from your past blogs that you add things about sex, positions etc. I’m starting to see why you apologize for sexual sin. Enough said on that just an observation
August 12th, 2007 at 11:58 am
Here’s to FSO and RS –I address you only because the other voice of
’silence silence-cover the sin’ has to be silenced! It is not helping anyone to
keep quiet any long–if we were rehashing things over and over that would be one thing –this is not a rehash but very much a surprise to me and to those
here who also read this blog. You have just filled in answers to our questions
–thank you for untwisting what was twisted in our minds by being continually decieved. It is at the very root of this movement because the fruit here iconstantly shows.
August 12th, 2007 at 10:52 pm
I wonder if anyone ever thought about applying I Corinthians 6:1-8 (NIV) to this situation:
“If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church! I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? But instead, one brother goes to law against another—and this in front of unbelievers! The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers.”
August 13th, 2007 at 3:48 am
Do your observational skills include the ability to recognize s-a-r-c-a-s-m? Ever heard of the term “tongue-in-cheek?”
I made those comments to jolt others into seeing the level to which they are taken up with these things.
You make blanket statements based on (knowingly?) incorrect conclusions. If you will take the time to carefully read my previous posts on this matter, you will find I described him and/or what took place, as follows:
“sin”
“sinful”
“terrible”
“despicable”
“abominable”
“guilty”
“terrible”
etc.
FSO……Kindly show me — in context please — where I “apologized” for what he did. What I DID do, and continue to do at the repeated repostings, is to ask pertinent, relevant questions on:
- the nature of adultery between consenting adults;
- the taking up of offences;
- looking at one’s own sins before (and after) casting stones at others;
- self-righteousness;
- bitterness;
- slander, gossip, and reviling;
- refusal to forgive others;
- healing;
- and most importantly…obeying/applying the Word of God.
The biblical injunction to expose those leaders who have sinned has definitely been fulfilled.
Many, many, times over. No doubt about that.
However, it was only a partial fulfillment, since I see no love (Eph. 4:15), or meekness and personal introspection (Gal. 6:1) taking place. If they are, please let me know.
Jesus encouraged whoever was “without sin” to begin casting stones. Apparently, those who continually re-hash, re-hearse, and re-tell the sins of others meet this standard. I would love to know how you pulled “sinlessness” off…it’s been pretty tough for me, and everyone else I know
Apparently, these saints also have risen above the Word of God, since they have the right to disobey Ephesians 4:32: “And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.”
That is, unless there’s a new definition of “tender-heartedness” and “forgiveness” making the rounds that I’m not aware of.
I’ll say it again…the whole situation needs to be dealt with biblically.
The process of healing and forgiveness needs to be allowed to begin.
-joe
P.S. Hey, I know…why not continue to avoid forgiving others, and letting healing come, and instead, make more accusations about me?
August 13th, 2007 at 4:55 am
There was never any lawsuit filed. This situation was handled within the church. That’s the problem. MfI and Bible Temple did handle this situation within the church they just never “appointed as judges even men of little account in the church.” The leaders judged it and decided how it was to be handled. The “men of little account ” were never even allowed to ask questions! Our eldership should have at least had that information so they could have made an informed decision as to whetherthey wanted to have him as a pastor or not. Just a few years ago another pastor (Rod Hill) split a church and took half of the people with him. A couple of years later he was exposed for having sex with one of his elders wives. He left town and moved to Port Angeles. His faithful wife stayed with him. They immediately got involved in leadership there. They’ve since moved to Mexico and are involved in leadership down there. More women coming forward saying he stalked them and pressured them also. Some saying he’s done the same thing in other churches too. Again this is being handled within the church. Where is the accountability? Who is watching these men and looking out for the next unsuspecting congregation that they go to? When CLF tried to confront Doug Cotton about his abuse and keep it within the church it did no good. (MFI, Wendell Smith and Dick Iverson are the ones that brought in the attorneys!) It was only when he was threatend with public exposure that Doug Cotton decided to step down. He gets to take many from that congregation and start another church with MFIs blessing. Where is the justice? Where is the restoration for the abused? Where is the protection for the next congregation? The church handles all these matters from a leadership perspective not from the “men of little account” perspective.
August 13th, 2007 at 5:24 am
joebib said:” the nature of adultry between concenting adults” You just don’t get it do you joe? That’s ok. Neither did MFI or Dick Iverson.
August 13th, 2007 at 8:29 am
Joe (and yeah, I’m sort of butting in to this discussion here), I can sort of see what you’re saying. We ARE told to forgive. We are told not to let a root of bitterness grow in our hearts.
The problem is, however, that these leaders are teachers and are thus held more liable for their actions. According to James 3 verse 1 their lives ARE more subject to scrutiny and judgment than the lives of the “average Joe Christian”:
For this reason, people entering ministry should do so soberly realizing this fact.
In the case of many of these leaders, appropriate avenues for biblical discipline were followed by the congregation. Those in upper leadership, in many cases, either swept these cases under the rug or gave a “hand slap” rather than serious church discipline. Abuse was allowed to either continue or to “shift” the abuser to a different ministry.
This remains an “open” wound and an offense to some people because the sin is STILL occurring.
Yes, we need to forgive, but for many folks this is still raw and a very current situation since they have family and loved ones still sitting under these leaders. Plus, many people have years vested in these churches and are grieved at the lack of accountability.
August 13th, 2007 at 9:04 am
‘He that hath ears, let him hear what the spirit saith: Openess brings healing.’ (Revelations) Many members under the pastor Gail were wounded. What you call “rehashing” is a wound that was not cleansed properly, it became infected and festered, and it now needs to be reopened and cleansed properly, we must get it all out.
‘If we confess our sins (hurts), he is faithful to forgive us of our sins and CLEANSE us from all unrighteousness.’
As Christians we need to lift all these families up in prayer and eachother because God is the ‘Great Physician,’ only the Lord God can heal all these wounds.
He that hath ears, let him hear what the spirit saith.
Love keeps no record of wrongs, therefore pursue love.
God is Love.
-An Ambassador for Christ
August 13th, 2007 at 10:12 am
Thank You!!!! As I read your comment I wept.. For the first time on this blog you have given me hope, maybe validation, mercy, & Love. We don’t want vengeance. We do for give. We want to offer hope for all that have been abused and are being abused today. Can’t you see? Bible Temple was corrupt at its core. Everyone taught from there has the same problem. Its the same for every cult. you do need to be cleansed and renewed. They have brainwashed their followers. Jesus said; I am the vine. not bt or any other church name. Away from him we can do nothing! WE are the anointed. we are the temple of the living God. We are the Church. Jesus came to set the captives free, to heal the broken hearted etc. Its the truth that sets us free. so keep opening the prison doors by speaking the truth.
August 13th, 2007 at 10:46 am
This thought came to my mind. When slavery was abolished the slaves had to learn to be free. In Iraq things are a mess right now because people don’t know how to be free.
I think it’s going to take time and healing. People need to learn to have self government under Christ. I believe the current leadership will have to repent in many areas where there has been abuses and where they have tried to control people, situations and circumstances.
Everyone will have to apply forebarence with one another. Some may have to leave the church for awhile just to get a proper perspective from the Lord.
Unfortnantely I have seen this many times on the Harbor and know many believers who have been hurt by these splits. I think what I have learned is that the form we have operated under as a church has not worked; specifially those that come from the MFI or FCL churches (KMI churches). They are extreamly top down in their administration of governement.
Here are some things I have learned after being in at least three of the Harbor splits.
To let go of people, God is God and believers are His.
Speak the truth, in love, DO NOT just sit back and say nothing!!
Stay true to Him, in your conscience, if something doesn’t feel right but you can’t put your finger on it there is most likely a reason. Pray and ask God to show you.
Know those who labor amoung you. That is a principle that so lacks in the body of Christ.
Encourage one another to return to their first love, Jesus. He should be the center of our lives.
Dig into the word, Spiros Zodhiates - The Complete Word Study New Testament With Greek Parallel is a great resource. Don’t just take what you hear from the pulpit as Gods last say on a subject. It is our responsiblity as Christians to dig in. We leave it up the pulpit to dictate our doctrine and theology far too much.
Study with other believers, learn to debate and disagree but love one another. It’s ok to have differing opinions, its not ok to be contentious and if you are repent. How hard is that for us.
Be real with those you can be real with and stick with one another. I think alot of times what ends up happening is we leave a fellowship but don’t stay connected with other believers, that is very important. Continue in fellowship.
Work hard at not becoming cynical, thats a tough one, but in time it runs its course and you can learn to trust again.
Don’t pretend you are a “good Christian”, in other words, if your upset be upset, talk to others you can trust and turn your upsetness to prayer and supplication.
Don’t defend your leaders we are to be true to Him and Him alone. Allow God to correct the wrongs.
August 13th, 2007 at 11:52 am
OK, so this makes me the most ridiculous person here and I seem to not be able to help myself from saying this:
“fluzzy” is not one of the possible correct spellings for the word floozy.
Here are three:
floosie, floosy, floozie
They all make sense linguistically but fluzzy does not.
Aaaaaaah–I hate myself for that too!
August 13th, 2007 at 3:27 pm
Rhema survivor or any other clf current or former member, would you please contact me at:
mindgames510@gmail.com
THANK YOU
August 13th, 2007 at 3:38 pm
Woops–ignore my comment above. Sorry.
August 13th, 2007 at 6:42 pm
I know some people who attend Dave Bryan’s church and I know some who have left and the word cult always seems to come out of the mouth of those who leave. Typical control issues of the independent churches.
this is an interesting link to their demonic beliefs–I’ve heard they’re totally out in left field in regards to this.
http://www.churchofgladtidings.com/schoolofdeliverance/
August 13th, 2007 at 7:05 pm
I don’t understand what you mean here by applying 1 Cor. 6:1-8. What would that look like would you give an example.
Thanks
August 13th, 2007 at 8:13 pm
I do not think Dave Bryan is demonic. that might be going a little far
August 13th, 2007 at 8:43 pm
Just one of those things, it’s ok, we need to learn how to spell.
August 13th, 2007 at 9:27 pm
joebib said
I am reminded of the “old” hate crimes from the South — and believe me, racism still lives in the South — that were prosecuted years later.
Why?
Because it was justice served.
Because it served to prevent future harm to others in the same manner.
Was it just because people talked about the crimes and harm from the past?
No, it served a purpose of protecting people.
My thoughts………………
August 13th, 2007 at 9:41 pm
Former ACC Member:
I’m beginning to wonder if I know you, are we have at least met?
Small world, isn’t it?
Word in Time
August 13th, 2007 at 10:45 pm
As long as Dave Bryan and his whole eldership are the first ones to go through their own deliverance school and then go through deliverance themselves, I think it’s a great idea! They could even offer a personal invite to all MFI pastors and their elders. There are enough strongholds there to keep them busy for the next ten years.
August 13th, 2007 at 10:51 pm
FSO, I think you misunderstood. Mindgames wasn’t saying that Dave was demonic, but that their beliefs about the demonic were “out in left field.” I’ve heard Dave and his wife (her name and heritage escape me at the moment) speak about their experiences with deliverance. I have to agree — it’s pretty far out there.
August 14th, 2007 at 1:37 am
(anna said: “I’ve heard Dave and his wife (her name and heritage escape me at the moment)….”)
Cheryl née Allen, sister of Steve and granddaughter of A.A.
joebib
August 14th, 2007 at 4:20 am
Rhema, I wish to say a few things to you which I hope you receive in love.
I admit, I’m not privy to all the facts in this whole sordid affair, and, thank God, I didn’t have to sit under this junk like you and your family did — I can only imagine what it must have been like to go through all that stuff. And, I recognize that going through these painful situations can make a person somewhat jaded or sensitive. And I’m cool with that, as long as it doesn’t go too far. But, I’m just trying to be honest here, and I’m sorry, but frankly, I still hear unforgiveness and bitterness in the tenor of your comments, and that is what concerns me.
You may remember a saying I posted a while back when we were discussing all this GB stuff, hot and heavy… I said, “When young men cry for judgment, old men plead for mercy.” You may find this hard to believe, and I don’t relish saying it, but, when I was younger, I was one of those young guys screaming for judgment…I was a veritable Christian Nazi…all for judgment, accountability, and stringing up the bad guys. “Those lousy bums, they’ve sinned, now where’s the rocks?!”
Let me also tell you something I’m not really proud of, but I do so you can see my heart. I also knew GB back in the day, and when I used to talk to him one-on-one, or whenever I heard him speak, I couldn’t help not being able to stand the guy. I thought he was very proud and full of himself and I frankly used to talk bad about him to other of us students, what a blowhard he was, how could EB stand being married to him, and so forth. I mean, I eventually grew to practically despise the guy. Later, when KRI exposed him over the pulpit that Sunday, I couldn’t help but weep for the whole situation, but candidly, in my heart, I thought, “Well, I’m not surprised this guy did that stuff, after all, he’s a bum.”
Well, some 25 or 30 years have passed, and now that I have, thankfully, mellowed a bit with age — perhaps due to the Lord’s wise plan of having a man’s testosterone start to simmer down a bit in one’s 40s and 50s
— I more and more find myself on the old men’s side, pleading for mercy.
I just can’t get away from thinking more and more about being in the other person’s shoes, you know, the “do unto others” thing? That I ALSO have sinned and done stuff I wouldn’t want repeatedly discussed by a bunch of people that I don’t even know are doing it.
All I’m saying is that I think there is a balance to be had here in regard to the way we deal with the sins of others — certain biblical attitudes that we are to maintain while we are bringing to light what these people did, like humility, compassion, the recognition that we have done scummy (is this even a word?) stuff, too.
I believe we should feel hesitancy in even wanting to bring this stuff up, and it should be done with the utmost discreetness — you know, like this verse says:
“12 For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret.” (Ephesians 5;12, NIV).
I know we need to bring to light what they did, and expose them, but I just don’t think we should relish doing it, nor that we should do it over and over, and that’s the attitude I’m seeing.
-joe
August 14th, 2007 at 7:07 am
Joebib that was like someone telling rape victims” move on its over I know a lot of you have never talked about it and you needed to get it out, but I don”t want to hear it. I know some scriptures for you that will show how wrong YOU are to dwell on it. Before my teststoserone ebbed i mighthave joined you in exposing rapists, but now because of Gods wisdom i am pleading for mercy.” If it happened to you joe you might not be so generous.
August 14th, 2007 at 7:29 am
Truth-time and personal experience with being hurt in this ’spirtual situation’
has shown me when people are deeply wounded shouting at them to
just get over it or saying you are bitter or offended never does any good –nor does it aid in healing.
With mellowing and age shouldn’t there also come wisdom? I agree 100 percent that when you experience some of these things for yourself than you truly have compassion thats necessary.
WE can isolate this one hurt from Gail or look at the whole picture. I started by just asking some more questions here and its amazing the rock it turned over and what slithered underneath.
The whole point is that this did happen years ago yes–but it went on and on and on and on and IT IS STILL GOING ON in one form or another. That is what this blog is about Joe. Their system of putting people down is still happening and we have people DAILY calling us for help or mercy and thats here in
southern IDAHO–not even up there at the epicenter.
Its a perverted philosophy –or doctrine that says the leaders are truly
better than the people and can somehow get away with treating them badly
and if you think it stopped ‘way back in the day’ than you apparantly have no
friends still attending there.
We do and we are serious about getting them out and stopping the madness.
Hope it helps paint the picture for those who haven’t gotten the reason
for all of this yet. As they said on Flight 93—’LET’S ROLL’
August 14th, 2007 at 9:13 am
finally getting answers: I couldn’t agree more. What is going on in Idaho? I believe Idaho is where this whole Bryan thing started so you might be closer to the epicenter than you think! I’m so sorry to hear this is happening to you and others down there.
August 14th, 2007 at 9:20 am
I am interpreting a few of you insinuating the Mark and Dave Bryan are involved in sexual sins as their father was. That is DISGUSTING of you to do so.
Put up proof or shut up.
August 14th, 2007 at 10:23 am
Joe BS
Who are YOU really?
I couldn’t help but weep for the whole situation, (but candidly),( in my heart), I thought, “Well, I’m not surprised this guy did that stuff, after all, he’s a bum.”
Sounds to me like your out of your freaking mind.
Who are you trying to fool besides YOURSELF? LOL
Well, some 25 or 30 years have passed, and now that I have, thankfully, mellowed a bit with age — perhaps due to the Lord’s wise plan of having a man’s testosterone start to simmer down a bit in one’s 40s and 50s — I more and more find myself on the old men’s side, pleading for mercy.
SOUNDS LIKE YOUR RUNNING SCARED…. WHAT’S THE MATTER JOE YOUR SKELITONS MAKING TO MUCH NOISE IN YOUR CLOSET….LOL
WHAT CHA GONNA DO WHEN THEY COME FOR YOU JOE BIB JOE BIB
LOL
August 14th, 2007 at 11:32 am
living life–i can’t speak for others–but you are interpreting the info here wrong
I believe-I don’t read it that way at all that the sons are doing the same thing.
Man….take a breath and re-read the messages on here.
However maybe what is being said is there is a root here not dealt with and whether the abuse comes out in a sexual form or in extremely controlling churchs –the point is there is something wrong here-
Houston we have a problem.
The people we are helping here in Idaho come out of Dave’s church in
Boise–lets just say churches have had to devote classes to heal them.
No not fringe players–we’re talking people in leadership positions–of course
they all have to be there working -working- working- many nights a week–joining a small group is not optional and this is just the beginning.
Did I talk about the “Youth Compound” yet –maybe later.
I have to be careful who I expose with their stories now–but suffice to say –strangeness–wierdness- Global Domination–sorry maybe that was a bit extreme–but for Joe–why are these people so completely messed up to the core when they leave or rather escape? Just asking.
August 14th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
FINALLY GETTING ANSWERS IS THIS THE DAVID BRYAN YOUR SPEAKING OF?
http://www.churchofgladtidings.com/community/staff.cfm
August 14th, 2007 at 12:46 pm
FINALLY GETTING ANSWERS, IS THIS THE MARK BRYAN YOU ARE SPEAKING OF?
http://www.coharvest.org/info/leadership/
August 14th, 2007 at 2:51 pm
Alll of us who sat under the teaching of Gail Bryan have been damaged in one way or another including his wife and kids.His view of women, church coverups ,the fear God is going to get us with a club etc.It is just a reief to be able to talk about it after all these years of wondering if it was our fault.Is god going to get us if we talk about it. If