I listened to PDazzles first Faith Harvest sermon that was appropriately titled Miracle Seed for a Miracle Harvest. It is probably the longest post I have written, but come on…have you ever sat through an entire CBC sermon? Let's begin:
12:14 - Pastor Frank starts out by announcing this will be a 4 part series. Quite honestly if he keeps this topic to only one month I'll be very impressed.
12:15 - Clarifies that Faith Harvest is giving ABOVE and BEYOND the tithe and mentions that Faith Harvest is the only way to accomplish many things that we can't get done with the Tithe. I could stop right there.
12:17 - Talks briefly about Forward Together, proudly mentions that they were able to accomplish 3 of the 4 things they set out to do. They didn't retire the debt completely but they were able to apply 1 million dollars towards it.
Attention CBC members and all who gave to "Forward Together": ITS TIME TO HOLD YOUR PASTOR ACCOUNTABLE FOR HIS WORDS. Don't you all remember how important Step 1 was? I do. Retire the debt. Once that happened there would be so much money freed up to do all sorts of things for the kingdom of God. Also, remember how Forward Together came about? Frank felt GOD telling him what he needs to get the church to do and the elders all agreed on these four steps. Don't you think if God tells you to do something maybe you should listen? Maybe instead of spending your money on a cute little ICE RINK in Vancouver you might just want to FOLLOW THROUGH WITH YOUR PROMISES. Enough of that though, back to the sermon.
12:22 – Quotes his first scripture Gen 8:22 "As long as the earth endures, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night will never cease." Follows this scripture with theses statements "The law of the harvest is built into the scriptures", "You can not have a harvest time without a seed time, not in the spiritual and not in the natural", and finally "Seedtime is important because without there can not be a harvest." Excellent work Pastor, take a scripture that is literally talking about planting literal seeds and reaping a literal harvest and make it sound spiritual. Question? What does the "cold and heat" stand for in your spiritual interpretation?
12:24 – Quotes second scripture Eph 3:20 "Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us…" and before anyone has a chance to say "What????" he jumps right into scripture 3: Luke 7:9 "When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, "I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel."
12:24 – He then moves into talking about the 3 levels of faith. Lets see, there's "Faith, Great Faith, and Miracle Faith"… wait a second, what just happened? I'm pretty sure PF just stole my wallet; I couldn't even see it coming. Wow, he should take this show to Vegas. What a magician. Lets watch again, but this time in slow motion:
Random Scripture 1 mentions Seedtime & Harvest, jump to random scripture 2 mentioning how God is ABLE to do all (according to his power), finish with Random Scripture 3, which speaks on faith, and BAM. Homerun (It should have been a walk off home run I tell ya, he could have marched right off the pulpit, rounded third and headed home, but he decided to head back out for an encore.) For those of you who still don't get it let me ‘splain. No there is too much, let me sum up… Frank randomly took 3 scriptures that referenced his sermon topic, quoted them all together and created Faith Harvest (unfortunately proper Biblical interpretation doesn't work quite like that). Moving on.
12:26 – 3 levels of faith. Faith, Great Faith, Miracle Faith. Makes the following statements: 1. Great Faith believes our God to be a good God and all things are possible. - TRUE 2. Great Faith believes God desires to bless his people with great provision financially and spiritually. – Uh, Frank…? He does go on to mention that he has "proven it by scripture, by my life…" and many other ways, but fails to actually tell us HOW he has proven it.
12:29 – "You are not going to have the kind of "more than enough" resource if you don't learn kingdom principles and kingdom thinking." Says something about sowing and reaping. Sow in famine sow against your mountain. Whatever that means.
12:32 -"Either this law of the harvest is right or it's wrong there is no in between. It's either a doctrine of scripture or it isn't a doctrine of scripture." Which I translate to say "Either you are going to give us money and continue to attend CBC or your not, there is no in between".
12:34 – Quotes someone unnamed saying "Great Faith is the empty hand of the soul that reaches out to God and returns full'.
12:39 – Tells everyone to "Open your hands a little bit". They have Prayer asking God to fill their hands with provision. Tells them to "bring it in, right now, bring it into your life. Place your hands on your heart". I think they are supposed to have just received provision, but I'm not sure how… they haven't had a chance to give yet.
12:42 - "Your tithe… is always the tithe… is always the tithe. It's 10%. It never changes even though the cost of living goes up and percentages go up and everything goes up, God still only asks for 10%. God doesn't increase that with the economy. Kinda makes tithing sound like a good deal…except that "Your 10% is always 10% is always 10%." The percentage doesn't go up, but the dollar amount does.
12:45 – Mentions Malachi 3. Naturally
12:46 – Offering is free will out of your heart. You should be a joyful giver and every person should be a receiver. When you sow you should expect to reap. When you sow your tithe you expect protection, you expect the covenant to work, windows to open. You should always pray that over tithe / offering. Again I'll translate "Give to get, give to receive, give to collect"
12:48 – If you have no expectation it dampens the "rhythm of giving" (I would love to hear a sermon on that alone). Many people do not get this; they give and give but never expect to receive. (Damn fools) So their giving is not with much expectation from the king.
12:50 – Tells story about a King and Giving/Receiving.
12:54 – God wants you to prosper. Prosperity is a gospel of scripture. God wants us to prosper with purpose so we can have more than enough. If we don't have any money above the tithe we can't: help the community, open other campuses, give out food boxes. If we're poor how do we feed the poor? How can we do that if we don't have anything to give? God wants us to have more than enough. This makes me sick. He asks the congregation to "give until it hurts", but CBC can only give out of the excess offerings. What the eff are they tithing for? TRY CUTTING DOWN ON SOME OF YOUR EXPENSES AND YOU MIGHT JUST HAVE ENOUGH MONEY TO HELP THE POOR.
12:56 – He gets a little weird at this point: It's a faith offering. A specific offering with sacrifice. You dictate where the Lord will bring the harvest back. Target your giving: i.e. Give your house money, get a blessing in your house. It could be your business, your family, anything. Whenever you sow your mind needs to be directed somewhere.
12:57 – Quote of the night: It's a spiritual principal "You can't buy the blessings of God but this gives him something to work with". Right, and when I go to SUBWAY for lunch I'm not buying a sandwich, I just am giving Subman something to work with….
12:59 -Faith Harvest is:Given out of a willing heart, Given out of the stirring of the Holy Spirit, Given out of your own special treasure. It Starts with what you have and is a Sacrificial offering. "All good giving hurts." (I knew that was coming).
1:02 – Faith Harvest is motivated by grace not guilt. Not Competition orpressure. (Get ready for a runner up quote of the night…) "I [Frank] am always on the edge when it comes to preaching on money because I want you and need you to be stirred up. The church has opportunity and needs money but doesn't want you to feel pressure from what I am saying but wants you to have grace."No…… No pressure felt here. It's not like you would spend an inordinate amount of time speaking on giving or anything.
1:04 – "The best definition of grace is divine enablement. God gives you the generosity into your spirit that you need. God implants in your heart the spirit of giving" Yes, a truer picture of Grace could not be painted. Forget Jesus hanging on the cross and bearing our sins, Grace is all about Giving.
At this point I think he's gone on a little too long because he starts to reveal the REAL reason he is a pastor. Keep in mind these are his words and not mine… I couldn't make this stuff up really. The whole time he was preaching I kept thinking "Stop writing my blogs for me". Here we go:
1:07 – Remember, his words: "Most everything I do in the ministry right now I will never enjoy it fully. Whoever comes after me will have great inheritance in the Property, in the building, the size of church and staff in the college, everything that I'm doing is really setting up for the next generation."
There you have it folks. It's all about the size of his church. Well… as the apostle Peter once said… "It's NOT the size of the ship, but the motion of the ocean" (well maybe not the apostle Peter, but a peter said that).
The quickest way I can find to dismiss this principle is to simply ask: WHERE IS JESUS IN FAITH HARVEST?
Yeah, the old covenant.
Not long after publishing my 1st article about the tithe, a woman who had moved to the US from one of the Russian republics sent me an email about how the minister of her local church had presented the tithe in the same way as Frank did above, as your buy-in for divine protection - as if God the Father were like the MaFIa God Father. Thanks to the teachings of her pastor, she came to view our Heavenly Father as an extortionist and mob-boss.
Thank you Frank, for painting such a warped picture of our loving Heavenly Father – who protects and covers us when we’re paid up and allows the enemy to bust our knee-caps when we’re not.
Why is it that according to folks who preach like this that God will ALWAYS get us if we don’t tithe, but that we have to EXPECT and DIRECT and PRAY to make sure God blesses us if we do?
Excellent recap.
I just don’t have the stomache for Frank’s sermons anymore. I try to listen to them, but they always take me back to Sunday’s at CBC and I start falling asleep. (He’s good at that.)
In the end though, the congregation needs to understand that Pastor Frank is doing them a favor. He’s letting them give to his church so they can get great blessings from God. Such a wonderful chap, that Frank.
Great analysis, Pope. There is so much material here that is so wrong, that I want to scream. But since you can’t hear me, I’ll make a few more observations…
12:26 It always distresses me that Christians think that they can measure faith. As if they can go to their local Christian book store and buy a “faithometer” that will tell them exactly how much faith they have.
“Excuse me, do you have the Faithometer 9000?” “Why, yes, we do. It’s in the charismatic section right next to the Gaydar Mark IV. While you’re there you should pick up a jar of our new product, Faith Booster Plus!”
And that if they have a deficiency of faith, they are somehow less “anointed”. In the context of giving, this makes people feel terribly guilty if they can’t give more than 10%, and conversely feel guilty about jeopardizing their mortgage payment if they do.
And PF never does really explain what constitutes Miracle Faith, does he?
12:32 He seems to ignore the fact the hundreds of people in his very own church have given sacrificially and never reaped anything but more stress on how they were going to meet their own needs. I can say that I was one of them and I know I’m not alone. How much proof does he need that it doesn’t work? There is no “Law of Harvest”. You made it up. Stop lying and deceiving people.
12:54 I hear a lot about the doctrine of prospering, but I have yet to see any where in the Bible that God demands we be a financial success. For every Scripture they mention, I can mention three more that deal with giving to the poor, the widows, and the orphans, and meeting the needs of others, thinking about others before yourself, etc. And I’m with you, Pope, I find it horribly hypocritical that the church is too “poor” to give to the poor based on the tithe of its members.
12:56 “Give your house money, get a blessing in your house.” This was one of the most dangerous comments of all. I can’t say for sure what he meant by this, but some people would think this means to give money intended for rent or a mortgage. Is the church going to bail them out when they get evicted or have their home taken away? He equates sacrificial giving with God’s blessing, when the Bible clearly teaches that God is NOT interested in our attempts to get his attention that way.
“Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the LORD?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.”
“You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it”
“My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart you, God, will not despise.”
“To do what is right and just is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.
“For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.”
“Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is true worship.”
12:57 God made the Universe without my faith offering. I don’t think he needs my extra cash to bless me.
“And God is able to bless you abundantly, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work.”
12:59 Good giving hurts? Whatever happened to
“Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. ”
1:07 Yes, because church is about property, a well-staffed college, a large (tithing) congregation, and financial blessing for everyone. Am I right?
Here are the 3 “Faith Harvest†scriptures Frank mentioned in more detail. You can see that the first is talking about God’s promise to never flood the earth (a great blessing which has nothing to do with planting seeds), the second is a great scripture on the POWER of Jesus, but seems to be asking that we are “rooted…in love†(not giving) and again has nothing to do with planting any seeds, and the last scripture is about Jesus healing the Centurion’s servant; a great story about faith, but Jesus doesn’t mention any seed planting or harvesting.
I’m really curious if PF even bothered to open his Bible for this one. I’ve got to think that you can make a fair case for “sowing and reaping†and probably tie it into blessings from God somehow, but Frank just doesn’t seem to care to do the work.
Well, I may be only one man, with one thorn to shove in his side, but I’m going to do my part. If anyone else cares to join, please do. I think I’ll be drafting a letter to him later asking for clarification.
Sorry, here are the scriptures:
Gen 8:20-22
20 Then Noah built an altar to the LORD and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it. 21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though [a] every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.
22 “As long as the earth endures,
seedtime and harvest,
cold and heat,
summer and winter,
day and night
will never cease.”
Eph 3:14-21
14For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15from whom his whole family[a] in heaven and on earth derives its name. 16I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
20Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.
Luke 7:2,7,9
2There a centurion’s servant, whom his master valued highly, was sick and about to die
7That is why I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and my servant will be healed.
9When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, “I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel.”
Hm, like you, I don’t see any connection at all to giving in any of these Scriptures, let alone the “Law of Harvest”.
OMG…just got off the floor after falling off my chair with hysterical laughter. RP, did you say “ask Frank to clarify?” That’s classic! Humor at it’s finest.
You think a guy who builds a church on the foundation of “do as I say and don’t ask questions” is going to clarify or explain anything for us! Sorry…I gotta run to the john before I pee my pants with laughter!
IT AIN’T GONNA HAPPEN, don’t waste your paper.
Mindless CBC’ers don’t care. And the leadership won’t hear the voices of anyone that isn’t saying “yes, amen.” And that’s EXACTLY why I’m thrilled I got out of that church!
Reading your summary on this sermon made me sick. I feel sorry for the people I know that still attend this church or churches like it.
I’m torn between laughing out loud and breaking out in hives. I’m just thankful that I can now see the BS manipulation for what it is. It is very conveniently packaged so no matter what happens in your life, it is your fault. And, of course, God loves CBC more than the poor so he gives CBC’ers more so they can “help the poor out”. Because, of course, the maker of the universe is totally dependent on City Business to take care of all these “financial matters” for Him. Obviously He doesn’t like Africa or Bangladesh very much. Or is it they don’t “give until it hurts”?
Why doesn’t the church demand that CBC follow the same rules that they teach?
Imagine the difference if Frank started out his sermon by saying “We just gave 2 million dollars away to churches/missionaries/the poor. We did this because we believe in the Faith Harvest principle. We would like you to understand and participate in this principle” Then he could go into his whole sermon.
If he took that route it would at least be respectable.
[Comment ID #11192 Will Be Quoted Here]
The law of the harvest might be more believable if presented spiritually. That to reap spiritual growth and the fruit of the Spirit, a person must sew into the Spirit through prayer, fasting, praise and worship, study and so forth.
Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh. When messages are wholly focused on material wealth, what does that say of the spiritual condition of the heart?
Sam
I’m using that in my letter.
RP, great analysis.
What continues to freak me out is CBC’s insane belief that they can “buy” protection and favor from God with money and “buy” a pain-free existence with behavior. Let’s talk about Job, baby. Did Job not give to God? Did he not live righteously? God still destroyed everything valuable to him.
Sorry, people, no matter what we do, no matter what we don’t do, we live in a fallen world, and we cannot buy insurance from pain, suffering or anything else. We cannot buy favor or blessing. Christ bought our salvation from eternal damnation. That, we have assurance of. A pain-free life here on earth? Not only did Jesus NOT promise that, he promised the opposite. In this world, you will face trials of many kinds. Sounds familiar? The Bible is full of such truths.
[Comment ID #11207 Will Be Quoted Here]
I agree with most of what you said, but God didn’t destroy Job, satan did.
Job 2:7, “Then satan went out from the presence of the Lord and smote Job”.
Another one of the strongholds in megachurch thinking is that “God is in complete control.” I don’t think He is at this time. LK. 4:6 and 1 John 5:19
indicate a war going on. I have often wondered what they must think of the Father in heaven if they believe He is responsible for all the evil in the world. Is He in cahoots with the devil? I think not!
OK, “whatHesaid,” God ALLOWED Satan to smite Job. The whole sovereignty thing is a mystery to me, but God IS in control, ultimately, in the “big scheme of things,” even with evil and free will. My point is that Job was righteous, and/but really terrible things still happened to him. That reality is inconsistent with what CBC and other legalistic churches teach.
I finally figured out that there is a mindset that controls CBC. I don’t know what else it can be. They have this paradigm of reality that is unique to themselves. It is not based on Scripture. It is not based on biblical principles. It is not rooted and grounded in love. Jesus Christ, crucified and glorified is not central to its theme.
When I finally left CBC after 20+ years, the “mindset” through others was fierce. I am considered deceived, in error, bitter, etc. You know the routine. There is no possibility in their mindset that they could be wrong, and therefore, there is no room for repentance.
So you can write a letter if you want to. But you will encounter the “mindset,” and it is unyielding and vicious to all opposition. You can point out verse by verse that this sermon is twaddle — a twisted self-centered gospel preached at the expense of the Cross. It will fall on deaf ears.
The only hope for those living in the CBC paradigm is the Holy Spirit. He is very good at asking questions in the heart. As the old saying goes, “He comforts the afflicted and afflicts the comfortable.”
And if the words in this blog are used to “afflict” a few people, then so be it!
Eh, I thought Miracle Seed was the product of Judah Smith and His Miracle Mojo?
Dear Free_From_The_Matrix,
I wrote what I did yesterday in a bit of hurry…today it sounds rather smug/harsh. I’m sorry.
I guess I have a few wounds that induce knee-jerk reactions.
Anna, that mindset is not unique to CBC. It’s everywhere. Whether your personal spiritual growth / revelation or discerning issues that you can’t abide by, sharing your pearls or concerns with fellow church members always seems to beget hostility, chastisement, disfellowship, persecution. I think it has to do with people just wanting to feel/believe that they are right, that they are OK with God, and the suggestion that you believe differently or take issue with the churches doctrine is a threat / challenge to them.
What is sad to me, is what you find when you peel back the layers of what is really going on. What is the root of people’s adverse reaction to being challenged? Near as I can tell, it’s fear. Fear of change, fear of being wrong, fear of not doing enough, fear of greater committment, etc. I don’t think it’s so obvious in yer typical extroverted charismatic type worship – but go to a non/anti-charismatic main-line church, where there is no apparent difference between worship and funeral services, eventually it becomes apparent that the complete lack of expressive worship is rooted in fear of embarrassment and need for conformity and approval of man.
Having led worship in such a place for years, I could see the people from the front, expressions on faces – casting a frightened / peeved look at someone who raised their hands as high as their waist. A cleared throat at someone shifting in their seat, raising hands, etc. There are countless non-verbal signals sent and received in such a gathering all of which serve to control people through intimidation, etc.
…
Before I left my former church, I tried several times to talk with my pastor, because I was in turmoil over the revelation I was receiving, the spiritual growth I was experiencing, and the discernment I had about things going on in the church. I wanted to stay – felt I needed to stay – after all it was THE CHURCH. But the pastor was really closed off, not trusting and would not open up at all. Some of the elderly members had him by the short hairs through their tithes and offerings did threaten to cut him off if ever he changed the traditional worship service, and so he was absolutely committed to the status quo.
I know he wanted me to stay – oddly I think our conversations stimulated him, even though they were [retty one-sided. Not that he didn’t want to talk I’m sure, but we didn’t have a long-term relationship that we could have established trust – I was the new guy and so he couldn’t risk opening up – especially with an older congregation prepared to lynch him if he changed things. It’s sad, because I heard him preach a time or two when the spirit really got ahold of him and he let ‘er rip. But 98% of the time, it was your basic McMessage.
…
I really don’t hold pastors responsible for what goes on in churches any more Anna, as much as I hold responsible the congregation. Congregations can be nasty mobs, who like the mob did to Aaron, demand of their pastor “UP! Make us gods to worship”, and so the priest/pastor does as the people demand to save his skin. After awhile, I think the pastor’s attitude becomes calloused – sayiing “you wanted this and by gawd your gonna like it”. We even saw that kind of response from God when the children of Israel demanded meat after eating manna a long time – God told them “you want meat? I’ll give you meat – quail – until it comes out of your noses”.
All churches seem to take on the mob mentality to some degree. I’ve attended dozens of them, and can’t say I haven’t seen one where there wasn’t a mysterious “we” who exercised control over goings on and passed judgment on dissenters.
If I ever attended an institutional church again, it would always be as a visitor, never a member, and I would never get involved. Only because I don’t want to run into that mob mentality.
Well, apparently the statement above needs a few more negatives to turn it into a positive – that one’s a triple negative … a new record!
It should have read:
Promoters of the Prosperity Gospel simply use the Bible as a fund-raising tool. They blatantly ignore context and covenant in the process of making money for themselves and their ministries. To twist the Scriptures in such a way as to raise more and more money is a heinous sin, which does and will incur divine judgment. I recommend that we follow Paul’s example when he says, “We do not use deception, nor do we distort the Word of God” (2 Corinthians 4:2). As we see in many churches and on TBN’s annual Praise-a-Thon: distortions of Scripture, along with hype, spin emotional manipulation and double talk are normal faire. As blatant fund-raising techniques, we can feel sad that so many pastors have become more concerned about money, power, growth and image than the simple truth of the Gospel. They have backslidden into the sins of greed and materialism in the name of overcoming “the spirit of poverty.” We should pray for these ministers who are deceiving God’s people and ask God to bring them to repentance publicly, if they will not repent privately. Part of the problem, however, lies in the ignorance of the people who believe most of what they hear because most pastors can say it with such a ring of authority and certainty. Such misuse of the gift of preaching is a further transgression. Furthermore, because most church members have been so intimidated into a codependency upon their pastor, they do not have the courage to confront him/her or ask the hard questions about context and covenant. Probably the worst consequence of the Prosperity Gospel is its distortion of the image of God. Jesus did not reveal the Father as a one who requires His children to pay tithes and faith harvest offerings to receive His blessings and protection! This teaching is obvious heresy. Instead, Jesus reveals a loving, generous heavenly Father who sends his daily blessings of “rain upon the just as well as the unjust” (Matthew 5:45b), and who every day “makes the sun rise on the evil and the good” (v. 45a). When Jesus told His followers not to worry because their heavenly Father was eager to take care of their material needs, He did not state that such divine care was dependent upon tithes or offerings (Matthew 6:25-34). He simply asks them to seek first the kingdom of heaven (v. 33) which Jesus was introducing in His own person and ministry. When Prosperity preachers present God as a financial investor, businessman, tax (tithe) collector, etc., they grossly distort the revelation of the Father that Jesus gives when He introduced the New Covenant of unconditional love and forgiveness simply through the greatest act of grace (a free gift) that the world has ever seen through His own voluntary death and subsequent resurrection.
David Mackin? Is this the same David Mackin who formerly taught at PBC? (I’m bad with names, but I think I’m right about this one.) My, how far the acorn has fallen from the tree…
A quick google search also helped me stumble across someone else who no longer shares the Prosperity “doctrine”: Tom Sparks! He also taught for years at PBC and has a much different view on money and the church.
Taken from http://www.fpmin.com/about.html:
(my emphasis added)
You can find his his essay denouncing the idea of salaried clergy, tithing, and his take on how to give here:
http://www.fpmin.com/teachings/provision_for_the_minister_of_god.pdf
I can’t say I agree with everything Tom says here, in particular he implies that the Apostles taught the Gentiles OT teachings from the Law, including tithing, so even thought it’s not specifically mentioned in the NT, it is understood. Seems like a tenuous leap of logic to me, and only hurts his case in denouncing the tithe as a financial control over churches.
I can’t help but wonder if the many former elders and teachers who left the BT/CBC fold weren’t just “called” to start their own church as they claim (although this could be entirely true), but perhaps they saw that the teachings of CBC were wrong (especially concerning money) and the only way to satisfy their consciences was to get out.
I have been watching this blog site for a number of months, and have been reticent to make any direct comments into it, due to some of the harsh and course language used to express their disapprovals with City Bible Church, but with the comments of David Mackin, and the one who referenced my own website: http://www.fpmin.com . I decided to go ahead and speak up a bit.
It is true that I have made some very serious departures from the doctrines of the Church, that were taught at CBC, and that I supported when there. I have dedicated my life to the restoration of the principles by which the early Church walked, and even more specifically to the headship and focus upon Jesus.
I see no validity to a man centered approach to Church, and even in the most benign of institutional Church settings, the focus is still too man centered. This has only hurt the Church, and I no longer support this.
It is true, as the brother commented about my article from my web site, where I discuss “Provisioning the Minister,” that I still see a remnant of the Old Testament concept of tithing and first fruits, in the teachings of Paul, but the departure I have made from Church history’s development of this theme is a radical one.
I reread my article, and spent a little time editing it, for purposes of clarification, so feel free to reference that document again. It has changed.
However, I do still see a timeless principle in the concept of tithing, but I think if you will take the time to carefully read what I have written, though it is certainly an imperfect rendering of the subject, you will appreciate the disconnect I have made from the way historical Christianity has dealt with this subject. In the end you may still disagree with me, and as such I am happy to acknowledge that my personal journey of understanding is far from over. This article simply reflects my current understanding.
As for this web blog…I agree with Dave Mackin, there is a great need for the current forms of Church to be held accountable to the broader body of Christ, including the House Church Movement. While I see myself far more connected to the House Church approach, I have personally distanced myself from anything that attempts to systematize it, control it, or be involved with it in a developmental way as to its “movement” nature. All movements of man have ultimately displaced Jesus, and I have no desire to be a part of that.
In general I am attempting to live out a simple walk with the Lord and His body, valuing all believers, of all persuasions of the Church, yet calling the Church worldwide to come out of an institutional approach to Church, and allow Jesus to be the sole focus again.
I encourage each of you to speak graciously, though I recognize this is not easy, given the excesses and abuses of the institutional Church. If I can be of any assistance I am clearly available, as expressed through my web site.
Blessings!
Tom Sparks
Dave and Tom, from one of your former students, thanks for writing here, and I hope you continue. Some of us are really searching, and you are familiar voices and it’s encouraging to know that your journey has been similar.
If you’re comfortable, could you tell part of your stories here? That’s prob. the most powerful thing you could do. Tom, I read your blog, which answered questions and went a long way. I was so sorry to hear about Tyler.
For all my concerns re: MFI, I heard Pastor Iverson speak a few weeks ago for the first time in many years. Whatever else is wrong at CBC and churches like it, I can’t fault him for any of it. He’s a man of God. I miss the safety and security that youth and naivete afforded me in Bible Temple.
Tom,
I appreciate your commenting here. First, let me apologize if I “outed” you before you were ready! (I still have yet to reveal my superhero identity.) I think it is noteworthy that many former members, including leadership and teachers, have reached similar conclusions as to the teachings of BT/CBC/PBC, and they have done so seemingly independently of one another. I’m sure you keep in touch with some of your likeminded colleagues, but it seems to validate my own experience and conclusions when I see that a man of Biblical scholarship shares similar criticisms of what I used to take for granted. As one of your former students, I appreciate your candor in this, and it gives me hope that the Church of Christ is not completely lost to institutionalized church and misguided teachings.
As far as critiquing your essay, to be fair, I only skimmed that article as I wanted to see your basic position on the matter of tithing (since that is a hot topic around here), and I would want to read it more thoroughly before I give you a grade on it. (How often do you get to grade your teacher’s papers? haha) But my knee-jerk reaction is that you seem to want to separate yourself from the abuses of IC, but still want to rationalize some of its teachings. If the idea of tithing is intended to support those things which you no longer value, then why try to make it fit? Yes, we want to honor God with our money and give as Christ would have us do, but I can’t rationalize tithing on a “principle”. I remember being taught that tithing was a NT principle brought over from the OT, and if pressed, CBC leadership would give the same speech, but ultimately it becomes a mandate to the people, and I’m the kind of guy who can’t have it both ways. Either we’re free from the law or we’re not. If not giving 10% is no longer “sin”, then I’m free to give as the Holy Spirit directs me and no one can make me feel guilty about it. And more importantly it would be wrong for me to even suggest that anyone else should be mandated to give any amount – that is between them and God. I would only hope that they could give cheerfully as they were able.
I could say a lot more, but I’ll be good and go read the article again. I’m also curious to see where else you differ from past doctrinal positions!
KM, I can’t help but mention that I don’t share your affections for Pastor Iverson. He sure seems like a kindly old man of the Faith, and I’m sure he still does a lot of good as pastor to other pastors. But this was the same man who drove at the helm of MFI when he and others condemned a local church for disciplining their pastor and threatened legal action against them. Did he ever actually meet with the members of the church in Gray’s Harbor during this crisis? And let’s not forget, it was Iverson who started PBC and spawned progeny like Frank and Wendell and gave them the doctrines that we so like to criticize and even ridicule (tithing is just one of many in my book). If his own beliefs deviate from theirs he has failed to step forward and say so. He can say they are responsible for their own churches, but as the head of MFI and their mentor he has the lion’s share of responsibility for shaping what their churches are today.
As they say, ignorance is bliss. The problems of today originated yesterday when Dick was helping to form the ideas that would shape the opinions of many church leaders world-wide. Unlike you, I can’t let him off the hook for that.
KariMichelle, in response to your request to share some of my story, I would like to make a few comments to all of my former PBC students, and fellow members of BT/CBC.
First, let me begin by expressing my apology to all of you. I so desperately wanted to be valued and feel significant, that without realizing it I sold my soul to CBC and PBC, so as to have the ministry I so much wanted. There is no question I also wanted it because I truly believed the Lord wanted me in the role of both elder and teacher and I wanted to please Him in all I did. In the end…mixture.
As time went by, and especially after becoming an elder, I began to realize how seriously wrong many elements of the theology and practice CBC was committed to. For a long while I did all I could to navigate around Dick Iverson’s requirements for all of the elders to publicly support his beliefs and still be true to the things God was showing me. It ultimately turned out to be a dance of death for my son Tyler. Religious hypocrsy and addictions don’t just affect the minister. They pollute his family as well, and of course the congregation too.
I owe my son Tyler, and all my students, and fellow congregants a deep apology for needing to be needed, and not dropping out of the leadership and off the staff of PBC long before I did.
When Tyler decided he could no longer stand the hypocrisy of it all, and felt the only way he could express his disapproval was through experimenting with drugs, and other dangerous behaviors, all I could do was negatively react to him and increase the pressure. The more pressure the greater the distance, and soon his life was spinning completely out of control.
For so many years previous, I had put pressure on my family to “look the part,” of a godly elders family, so that the ministry of God in my life would have the opportunity to bless the congregation. Pardon me while I pause to hold back throwing up at this point in my narrative. In other words, my attitudes had nothing to do with protecting godliness, and had everything to do with religious addictions and the need to be needed.
Unfortunately for Tyler, and to some degree my daughters as well, this phoniness pushed them away from God and towards unhealthy things. In time, and continued waywardness, Tyler made choices that hurt him more deeply. I deeply regret his choices, especially as they were reactions to my religious addictions, even though I know he was ultimately responsible for his own choices. I can’t help but feel I share in part of those choices.
Listen folks, since 150 AD, or said in another way, just after the death of the apostles, the Church detoured from the simplicity of loving Jesus and each other, and turned it into power struggles, religious politics, pursuits of money, and developed one doctrine of man after another. The very thing Jesus warned of. Religiosity, religious addictions, and the evil pursuits of man’s agenda stamped with Jesus’ name, became normative for the Church.
Fallen man has a huge difficulty recognizing his inherent tendency towards the very insecurities Adam and Eve felt, the day Jesus asked them why they were hiding among the bushes. When we fail to own these insecurities, then we pursue sinful methods of resolving those insecurities, and when we do so in the context of the Church, then we develop religious practices and doctrines that marginalize Jesus and make room for the traditions of the elders.
I was a part of this, and I’m sure, to one degree or another still am. Religious hypocrisy is far easier to spot in someone else’s life than in our own. I’m suspicious I still embrace more than I’m aware of. To the degree any of us are we hurt the body of Christ, and we develop concepts of Church that end up abusing the Lord’s flock. What a tragedy!
So, when Tyler’s past caught up to him, even though he had been living with us again, and had cleaned up his life and ways, he had thought an issue he faced with the authorities was history, but when it turned out not to be so, and the fear of the potentials of repercussions from the law overwhelmed him, coupled with years of Meth abuse, and he over reacted and took his life before anyone could help him process his fears and walk it through to completion. In all likelihood it would not have gone as badly as he suspected, but Meth had burned out his capacity to reason solidly and he took his life.
He had been such a blessing in our home, for the last two years he spent with us. His childlike nature had returned. We had great times around the property, and he appeared poised for life success. Obviously the enemy of his soul had other plans, and Tyler wasn’t quite ready to fend him off, and we didn’t even get 24 hours to help him make better decisions.
So, why do I tell all of you this? Because to one degree or another Tyler’s death is a microcosmic evidence of the serious dangers of religious hypocrisy, as manifested in my life, and the life of historical Christianity.
Before you rush to console and balance me out, I want you all to know I have received the grace of God, for my errors, but receiving His grace and forgiveness don’t instantly remove all the pain, and to be honest with you I’m glad they don’t. It is just too important that I never forget the seriousness of the errors that my brethren at CBC still embrace, promote, and believe in.
When you challenge them regarding their hypocrisy, while right now they know only to reject your challenges, one day these challenges will be an abiding testimony of God’s love to reach out to them, warn them, and warn all others connected with their errors.
George Barna sees it. Some 50 million American believers have seen it, and have left the institutional Church. Our European brethren are emerging from it all, and around the world small simple Church is happening again. We have a long ways to go, but the journey is essential if Jesus is to be honored as the rightful Head of His Church, in replacement of the false “One man shows,” known as Pope’s and Senior Pastors.
We dont need specialized buildings, professional clergy, control oriented hierarchical leadership, pulpits, pews, and stained glass. We need one thing, and that thing is a Person. When believers come out of these false systems and return to simple worship of Jesus, simple love for the brethren, care for the lost, poor, and disenfranchised of this world, then the world will see the true Church again.
The brother who identifies himself as the “Former inner circle member,” is wise to challenge me about my current beliefs as regards the principle of tithing. My beliefs may still be errant. I continue to pray deeply about this matter. I think if he reads my article carefully he will be a bit less concerned, but perhaps not. In the final summation of that subject all I really believe is that everything we have we have received from Jesus, and Jesus loves folks, and He will guide us to share the things He gives us with those He loves, whether they are fellow believers, our ministering teachers, the poor, the widows, and the orphans. It’s no more complicated than that. This is what my article is all about, and this is where I’m living.
We currently receive no monthly ministry income from anyone, and I discourage those I gather with from doing such for me. I’m no longer Bro Tom, or Pastor Tom, or Elder Tom. I’m just Tom. I don’t want anything else.
As God leads me to travel to different nations then I let those trips, and the needs connected with those trips, be known among those who are close to me, and if they sense a leading to assist with expenses then that is received.
We’re all on a journey folks, and truth is gained slowly, and error goes painfully. I want to embrace the cross and and let it have its full work in my life, and I still have a long journey ahead in that area.
I hope this blogging has not been too wordy, and I hope it helps some.
I pray God delivers all the saints who have been polluted by the garbage I have now recognized and turned from. As for my brethren who are still in leadership at CBC…God bless them! They are good men and women. I truly believe this. Including Dick Iverson and Frank Damazio. I think they adhere to many things I now believe are error, and I pray they awaken to this one day, but I refuse to castigate them as evil men. If there are evil things at work within them I don’t know of it. I experienced some wounding from them, but I hold no malice against them for it.
Listen folks, error gets woven into the fabric of our beings in such a way that we can end up doing heiness things and believe we are doing God a favor. Look at what Paul did to the Church before he met Jesus on the road to Damascus. The same is true of these men. It has been true of me. It is the story of religious history. To whatever degree I have been delivered, praise His name. I want the same thing for them. They are deceived and are deceiving others, but I would be very hesitant to believe that it is intentional. It is ugly, it is hypocritical in many manifestations, but religious bigotry is not an easy matter to deal with in our own lives.
As for Ted Haggard…he is now on a journey of self awareness that will blow his mind. I pray he lets Jesus do an inside job that blows his mind. He needs our prayer support if he is going to get disentangled from the garbage that has polluted his belief system.
Enough for now. God bless you as you struggle with getting free from the errors of man. I’m still in my journey as well.
Tom
FICM,
Thanks for your apology, but no harm done. David Mackin and I both decided it was time we addressed the issues of this blog, and so we both decided to use our real names.
I think if you read over my article again it will clear up some things, but in answer as to why I would even use the terminology “the principle of the tithe,” I think my answer would be that I see Paul maintaining a form of continuity with the OT that recognizes the law of Moses being fulfilled in Christ yet still speaking important truths to the New Covenant ministers.
Somehow, though we completely reject an OT and Mosaic legalism, I believe we must recognize that the God of the OT is none other than Jesus of the New Covenant, and since He is the same yesterday, today, and forever, I would look for timeless principles in the OT that have application under the New Covenant, albeit in very different ways and manifestations than under the Mosaic covenant.
I think it is a very thorny issue, and one we all need a great deal of insight on, but as Paul references the various categories of recipients for the tithe it seems evident he intended for the NC believers to understand that those categories still existed, but now required Holy Spirit guidance in application.
As for a percentage…Paul makes no reference to such a thing, and thus I would conclude only the Spirit could guide in this issue. He may choose to call one believer to give a percentage of his increase to a given need, or He may simly put a dollar amount in his heart. And, of course, it may not be money at all. Under the Mosaic system tithing had little to nothing to do with money. The IC has soooo failed to admit this. There are many forms of giving, beyond just money, so why limit the Spirit to money, unless you are determined to build an IC complete with mortgages, salaries, staff, etc., and buy into a completely bogus concept of the Church as a building and a business corporation, which I don’t any longer.
So “yes,” I still see some continuity in this area, but it looks very different under the NC. I may wrong in my perspective, and as such I remain open to additional insights, and commit to keep studying the theme.
As for other doctrines I have adjusted, from those taught at BT/CBC/PBC…just about everything to do with Ecclesiology, a much smaller and more guarded emphasis on prophecy, a vastly diminished emphasis on the corporate Church having anything to say in the political arena. It is one thing for believers to feel called to address that arena, but I have no interest in encouraging the body of Christ to form some consensus and use that consensus in a manner that is designed to make the politicians sit up and notice our consensus and do what we want. I do not think the GOP is “God’s own party,” and the Church is best, as a corporate expression, to refuse labeling itself as either Republican or Democratic, and using it to gain clout in the political arena. The whole thing makes me sick, and I believe represents foolish error promoted by IC leaders and thinkers. When one finally dumps an IC mentality, many other attending beliefs drop away as well. I’m deeply embarrassed about the years of political activism I was involved in at BT.
I see no place for bible colleges or seminaries. They end up simple being slaves of the IC concept of Church, and as such are little more than prostitutes of the system. This isn’t to say I would oppose all forms of biblical training, but I would not favor it being done in an institutional format. Discipleship looks far more relational than just stuffing biblical truths down the throats of students, in a short period of time, and being paid to do it. It is slower, more difficult, and bonding in nature than an institution has the time for.
Beyond these areas I’m pondering other doctrines, as to modifications on the traditional themes, but have not settled or attempted an articulation of these themes. I’ll leave unsaid as to what some of these doctrines are that I’m pondering, just because I wouldn’t want brief comments to be unsettling in this forum.
Hang in there. It’s a journey, and we all still see dimly in that cloudy mirror.
I’ll be quiet now, unless someone asks me a specific question. I have no desire to dominate this blog, and I don’t any longer “need” to be heard. I’m just here to serve if its requested.
Tom
Former Inner Circle Member said:
November 10th, 2006 at 1:48 pm
David Mackin? Is this the same David Mackin who formerly taught at PBC? (I’m bad with names, but I think I’m right about this one.)
Yes, this is the David Mackin that taught at PBC (1980-1989) and was a BT member from 1972-1989. I enjoyed your comment, “My, how far the acorn has fallen from the tree…” That is true, but I would like to say that it is also true to be worded this way, “How far the tree has thrown the acorn off of its branches and how glad it is to keep it away!” I recently spoke with Joanne Scheidler, before the Scheidlers left for overseas, about using the PBC library for some research. She didn’t seem to have any problems with it and told me that she would talk with Ken Malmin, the PBC dean. When I didn’t hear anything in response, I called Ken’s office directly and left a message. I asked Ken if I could come and use the PBC library to do some research because I needed to use some of the CBC publications. Ken never returned my call.
Thanks Tom and Dave.
KariMichelle writes, “Dave and Tom, from one of your former students, thanks for writing here, and I hope you continue. Some of us are really searching, and you are familiar voices and it’s encouraging to know that your journey has been similar. If you’re comfortable, could you tell part of your stories here? That’s prob. the most powerful thing you could do.”
KariMichelle:
Thank you very much for asking this and encouraging us to continue to share in this blogging experience. It means a lot to me that you would put it the way you did. Ever since I was asked by Dick Iverson to leave BT/PBC, I have missed the PBC students. I have not missed the dress codes, the attendance roles, the public confessions of students’ sins in chapel, the “six inch rule,” the active discouragement of questioning the pastors and teachers, the one-sided educational experience that, at times, in my view, tended to be more indoctrination than education, etc., but I have deeply missed being in the presence of a classroom of young and open men and women who sincerely desire God and His Word.
I enjoyed the priviledge (and I do consider it a privilege) of sharing my thoughts with others at PBC, but I also enjoyed the questions and the discussions in class. The phrase that thrilled my heart as much as anything was when a student in class would say, “Wow! That’s cool. I never thought of that before!” So, for you to say what you said in your blog had an intense emotional impact upon me because of how much I miss being a participant in a genuine learning environment where everyone can learn together (and not just having the teacher be viewed as the one with all of the answers).
I want to share my story with the blog as time goes on. Comparatively, I found it very healing for myself, after I was asked to leave BT/PBC, to have taken nearly one entire year to journal my thoughts and feelings into a manuscript. The manuscript I wrote was not ready for publication, but it really helped me to begin to process my issues, the full healing of which, I believe, will take a lifetime.
Thanks again for asking! Before I share more fully, I would like to ask you, if you don’t mind, what you meant and felt when you said, “Some of us are really searching…”
I feel something strange stirring inside … the likes of which I haven’t felt in years … feels good, warm … but what is it? Hope?
Dave and Tom, thank you for the love and caring that is so clearly evident in your posts. It warms my heart.
Jack
First:
Hey, Catalyst and JP–isn’t it time to make this thread it’s own entry?
Dave,
By searching, I guess I mean I’m always trying to get back to beginning place of knowing God and love being in his presence and hearing from him (without the noise.)
Tom put a link to Tim Smith’s music on his site–I went there last night and listened to Tim’s music and the presence of God was there and it just made me weep b/c 1–When God shows up, I always cry and 2–Because every time I REALLY experience God I realize how seldom I do.
It seems to me that in ALL churches these days the music is atonal, and NO ONE knows how to wait on God anymore. Even in places with “good” worship, God doesn’t come like he used to.
And, since moving back to the PDX area, it’s hard to find one church that really “has it all.” I attend 2 really good churches, BUT I find that I’m still looking for a place where God shows up regularly for 1, and that ministers to the widows and orphans for 2.
You wouldn’t think it would be so hard to find 1 church that does both, but I haven’t found it yet.
The most powerful God experiences I’ve ever had were when after being saved at age 16, a bunch of kids from churches all over our city began meeting. We were just a bunch of kids who knew nothing, but we were hungry and we knew how to chase God. We had sister groups in Vancouver and Seattle and the relationships made there are still my closest friends.
We knew God, we knew the Word, we knew community.
That’s what Im searching for again. (Note to Tom: That does sound a lot like house churches, and away from IC. BUT, I dunno every life group, house church, cell meeting, I’ve ever been to has been boring.)
BTW, (back to Dave) I never knew that you were asked to leave. I know as students we were surprised you left, but I think we thought you were going to pursue your doctorate. How are your kids? I remember your daughter best, very adorable.
FICM,
I’m sure you’re probably right. If I had sat where you sat, my view might be very different. Maybe for old times’ sake and that feeling of security, I wanted to see what I saw. Who knows.
I do think though that w/o hearing MFI’s side on the Doug Cotton thing, I can’t truly judge. I would like to hear from them. Wendell? Care to join the party?
One last thing: I don’t identify myself here, not b/c I don’t want people to know who I am but because I talk about my former church and I don’t want those there to be hurt.
But to Tom: I once visited Orifino with Cheryl Bolton and to Dave: I took speech with the Freshman when I was a junior and during my speech handed YOU a 3 x 5 card.
Wow, it absolutely thrills me to hear these things and talk about them. Like Jack, I feel the stirrings of genuine hope for the Church when the Holy Spirit confirms truth in such a remarkable way.
Tom, again thank you for sharing in such a vulnerable way. I couldn’t imagine the pain you have suffered nor could I think of a better example of “what not to do” and everything that is wrong with IC. I think that God wants to restore His Church, but the word has to get out. How wonderfully ironic that He might use something like this blog to do it. Yes, we might not be as forgiving or kind as you are (which I admire greatly), but we are here and we are all taking this healing journey together. I probably will have more questions (and criticism!) for you but I won’t bore everyone here – I’ll email you soon!
Dave, thank you also for sharing. It really does mean a lot to me and some of the other lurkers here.
KM mentioned Tim Smith, and as he was a former mentor of mine as well, I should mention that he’s also got a great new ministry that I will plug for him, called “Worship Without Borders”.
http://www.worshipwithoutborders.org/index.php
KariMichelle,
Thanks for responding to my question as well as asking about my kids. Both my son and daughter are in good health and doing okay, but, if they ever come to mind, I would appreciate you praying for them that their lives would be surrended totally to Jesus Christ. Thanks!
Before responding to your remarks, I surveyed many of your previous posts, and I want to say that, from my perspective, you have a lot of wisdom, maturity and insight in the whys and hows of the dysfunctional church. I like your openness, honesty, and bluntness, too. You have the makings of a healing book or booklet on the subject, in my opinion.
3x5s,
Strange…I do vaguely remember a young lady giving me a 3×5 card at PBC for just such a class as you mentioned. Imagine that! However, I cannot see the face…….BTW, I still love and use 3×5 cards. I have tens of thousands of them and will be using them, God willing, as I begin to write some books. A long time ago, Frank looked at my habit of carrying 3x5s everywhere I go and regularly writing notes on them, and he commented with disgust, “I sure couldn’t live like that!”
KM said,
“By By searching, I guess I mean I’m always trying to get back to beginning place of knowing God and love being in his presence and hearing from him (without the noise.)…That does sound like house churches…but [they've] been boring…”
Dear KM,
The beauty and simplicity of the presence of the Spirit, I believe, is what we’re all seeking on a continual basis. I agree with you that house church is not the automatic answer to all of our problems with organized religion. E.g., we had a prayer meeting in our apartment for awhile and an old friend from BT began to attend. He was no longer at BT, but was attending a house church. He came for a couple of times and then we no longer saw him. I called him and asked him how he was doing, and he finally admitted to me that the reason that he no longer was coming to our weekly prayer meeting was because the leader of his house church told him that he didn’t need both meetings! So, he dropped ours, upon the recommendation of his house church leader. What that showed me was that abusive, over-controlling leadership exists in the human heart and is not exclusive to the size or structure of a church. The heart is the key to everything. It is too bad that not one place has it all. And, yet, is that not God’s will so that we will continue fellowshipping with Christians all across the board and all around the world?
Human nature, I think I have noticed, always wants to capitalize on moves of the Spirit – to commercialize and to control them for personal gain. To me, this is the essence of denominationalism and organized religion. We fellowship with lots of different Christians from different church groups, house churches and no churches. I find it very enriching. God is in His universal Body and I am coming to the conclusion that when we need to learn more about healing, we visit a group that has been graced in healing; when we need deliverance, we go to a different group or leader; when we need intelligent, scholarly interpretation of the Bible, generally speaking, I do not pull books written by charismatics off of my library shelves, I read those written by true scholars. I have come to see that everyone has something different to offer to the Body, and if we stay enclosed in our local church or house church cocoons for 30 years, as you said, “in the name of loyalty,” then we will probably miss out on a lot of the kingdom of God! I love John Wesley’s words, “The world is my parish!”
I am not pushing not having a “home” or transparent relationships, but I am saying that we must, in order to grow in the freedom and simplicity that is our Savior’s, leave behind the guilt, introversion, sense of self-containment and sectarianism that is so characteristic of human systems of control and domination, in whatever structure they choose to manifest.
KM: I really appreciate your heart.
Former Inner Circle Member, et al
I appreciate your words of encouragement, and acknowledging the gentle approach I am taking towards the CBC leadership, but I want to be honest about my own emotions, in front of all of you, as relates to my past wounds.
I still experience anger over the things I walked through at CBC, even recently, but because I have traveled in a number of nations, and ministered in many different Churches, I’ve come to understand that what I experienced in BT/CBC is only a personalized experience of what millions of believers have experienced in millions of Churches worldwide.
I assure you, the problem is far wider and deeper than CBC. Any form of Church that employs the “Rule of One” principle, that Dave Mackin has mentioned here, otherwise known as the “Senior Pastor Cult,” will ultimately abuse the flock of Christ, if in no other way by usurping His first place in their lives. The very moment men developed titles, positions, a concept of professional clergy, and hierarchical leadership, even if they initially did so by telling themselves they were protecting the Church from heretics, the fact is you cannot steal even a small portion of Jesus’ glory or rightful headship of “His” Church and not have it set in motion future abuses.
I assure you, well beyond Ted Haggard and Frank Damazio, this false system of Church has been abusing the flock of Christ for centuries, and until the entire system is called the “usurper” that it is, it will continue, whether we’re looking at a small Church gathering in someone’s living room, or a 50,000 member Church that meets in a football stadium. They all partake of the same polluted root system, and it is this root system that must be cleansed and replanted in the fertile ground of Jesus’ love and headship.
Nothing about the true functioning of the Church and its believers requires anyone be in charge, manage, administrate, or control it. The very moment any gathering of believers moves towards creating some aspect of gathering that seems to necessitate this, in that moment they are heading right back down the destructive pathway of the Crusades, the Inquisition, Papal authority, and all the rest.
So, am I angry? Am I down right !!ox@#… angry? You bet I am, and so should you be, and while the initial phases of that anger inevitably get focalized on a few specific offending Church leaders, such as Frank or Dick, in time I believe you will find, that the problem is way beyond specific abusing individuals, to an entire false system.
My encouragement is for us to work through our wounds from those who wounded us, and then lift up our vision, our intercession, and our determination, to see just how big this issue really is, and become a part of the worldwide decision to come out of it all, and get all of it out of us, so we can become workers with Christ to work at His side in restoring His Church to His leadership, His love, His grace, and His way.
Dave,
Thanks for the encouragement. I do feel that I am eventually supposed to write for the body, just not sure what subject or how to begin. There seem to be more “voices” attesting to that though, so perhaps it will be soon.
I’m also appreciative that you shared more of your journey. I do remember hearing that you were in Eugene for awhile. I also really loved you as a teacher–your style was a lot different than everyone elses in that you were REALLY fun to listen to and talked about different things than everyone else. I suppose on some level we recognized that you were a “renegade” of sorts and didn’t share all of the status quo belief systems, but that also made you more relatable. One of my best PBC memories is the night you hosted my class our Junior year at your house. We played To Tell the Truth and watched you and your son wrestle, while Bobbi and your daughter sat pristinely to the side and laughed at the silly boys in their family. It was a very warm time and much more “human” than most of PBC life.
My senior year was your last year there. I graduated with Jeff, Ed, Brett, Denise, Michelle, etc. I was prob. the quietest girl in the class, and from AK. Maybe that will help. If you still can’t place me, don’t feel bad. Being a teacher myself now, I realize how classes and faces all tend to blend together after awhile.
Peace, looking forward to hearing more.
KM
KariMichelle,
Being a detective at heart, with all of the clues you have shared, I took a PBC yearbook off of my bookshelf and I think I have figured out your identity. I will veil my guess that in the appropriate yearbook, that is indeed very festive, one senior shared how her insecurities were exposed at PBC…
KM,
I would like to encourage you in your writing ministry:
(1) What to write: Write what you are passionate about. If you’re not excited about what you’re writing about, then you won’t be able to communicate that same excitement to your readers. To, me, it seems like you are passionate about healing people from spiritual abuse; maybe many more topics, too.
Or, write about what you know a lot about. People want to learn about interesting things from people that know more than they do.
(2) How to write it: If you want to write on the subject of healing from spiritual abuse in the churches, one place to start is to copy/paste all of your posts in this blog from the Blog Stats page into a Word document. Survey your thoughts and see if you can see any patterns or categories. If you do, these may be the initial chapter divisions of your rough manuscript. If you want other category ideas that will help you organize your thoughts better, then one place to start is by obtaining some of the books on spiritual abuse that I posted on this blog in another location.
(3) When to write: I am just beginning my formal, personal writing journey, so I am not an expert. Most of my writing up to this point has been collecting notes and ghost-writing for various authors. But, just generally, you write when you HAVE TO write – when the burden is so heavy that it must be shared; when the word of the Lord is so needed that, like Jeremiah, it can no longer be shut up within your bones; when the inspiration is as clear as a summer day; when the book comes to you at night and says, “You must! Who else will?”
E.g., I was asked to write a book confronting the mandatory tithe. At first, I wasn’t sure. But after I read a lot of pro-tithers’ materials and began to see how obviously they pervert the Bible, in both context and covenant, to try to prove the tithe, I was filled wth indignation and disgust and decided that I would write a book exposing it. The fire got into my heart! What is burning in your spirit?
(4) Why to write: People write for various reasons. Some write to try to make money. To do so, they go to the Publisher’s Weekly, seeing what is hot, and try to write a manuscript ASAP before the heat dies down. Others write for personal reasons (to share their insights, to instruct their children with a children’s book, to correct a wrong, to heal a hurt, etc.). There can be valid combinations of all of the above, of course. You need to find your own.
Oh my.. Did you too ghost for Dick Iverson?
I hope you release it as an eBook in PDF format, or just HTML, for free.
You’ll never get it published nor into a Christian book store. You may also run into the ethical paradox of “how do I expose the lie of the tithe, that sacred-cow of man’s religious system where the anointing is bought and sold, and tell people they do not have to tithe, yet charge them for my book?”
To be credible, it must be free, elsewise you’re just another system-guy espousing an alternative theology for sale.
A number of people have suggested I package my tithe writings in a book and sell it to make money, since I have no job or personal income. But I can not do that. The Father has held me to the scripture “freely you have received (from me), freely give (to others).” It’s been tough to take, David, but consider it like the fish and loaves principle … Jesus received the fishes and loves – if ever anyone deserved the wage (meat) for their work, it was Jesus, our high priest. He could have said to the disciples “thanks, I’ve got my lunch … now rustle up some grub for yourselves and these people” … but instead, He took what was given, blessed and broke it, and gave it back to the people instead of taking any for Himself. It was through that selfless sacrifice that the meager provision was multiplied. I am convinced that the wide-spread distribution and translation of my tithe articles into other languages has to do with giving them away freely. Had I charged for them, or remained possessive of them in some other way, I don’t think they’d have had nearly the impact as giving them away has.
It is certainly a tough subject to take on, David. It’ll get you stoned. But after awhile, a person gets pretty good at dodging rocks.
Jack
living life,
No, I never ghost-wrote for Dick, but I wrote out the very first edition of Frank’s book, The Making of a Leader, from some of Frank’s notes as well as included some of my own original material. This is an entire story in itself, which I will not go into here, but, suffice it to say, that Frank paid me about $1,200.00 to write the book for him; it was around 1977 or so.
Ray Grant, with whom Frank D., Jack L., and myself lived for awhile, wrote Dick’s Team Ministry book for him. Dick having Ray write this book, apparently from some of his tapes and notes, got him into trouble. The book espouses a rather democratic form of local church government much different than how BT was really run. So, as pastors in the field read it, they contacted Frank, and expressed their concern about how could Dick Iverson’s book be presented in the marketplace as if it was a true representation of BT church government structure, when, in fact, it was not! (I don’t know why they are still selling it in their bookstore, unless it has been re-written.)
My take is that these questions and complaints began to bother Frank so much that he did two things: (1) He told Dick that he needed to keep closer tabs on what his ghost-writers produced for him. (2) He wrote his own book actively promoting the role of the senior pastor in church leadership. I have the title of that book somewhere in my notes. I don’t know whether he pulled the book from the shelves or re-named it, but I can’t recognize any of the present title in the CBC online bookstore to be the one.
Nevertheless, the book, honestly in my opinion, is one of the worst I have ever read. The book, for the most part and from what I can remember, is laid out around the key phrase “one sheperd.” Frank applies most, if not all of the biblical occurrences of the phrase “one shepherd” to support the senior pastor, as the “one shepherd” over the local church. As I read the book, I noted that Frank took every single one of the Bible references “one shepherd” completely out of context to try to prove his beliefs about the Rule of One (the senior pastor) over the local church. The book, to me, was an emotional over-reaction to the criticism coming in from pastors in the field against Dick’s Team Ministry book – a very impetuous, unbiblical and non-professional substitute.
Wow this explains a lot. We all wondered where this idea and doctrine came from and now we know finally from someone who was there.
Thanks for explaining it here.
There is no ‘team’ where we were.
I knew Ray was one of his ghost writers and know of other books/articles/things Ray has done.
Ghost writing is all to common I guess. I knew of a lady last year writing a cardiac surgery book for a surgeon in California. And no, she is not a physician herself. He would give her the title and very basics of what he wanted and then she had to research it all and write it.. Interesting concept.
Dave-
I’m not one of the twins if that was what you were thinking?, I do remember using the phrase “eclipse of the soul” in the little blurbs we wrote in the yearbook.
Thanks for the encouragement–I do know what you mean by “having to write.” I did quite a bit of writing for my former church and sometimes I just felt “the annointing” fall from the sky and whole poems or songs would just drop into my spirit.
Soon.
KM
In listening to many of Frank’s sermons I have found that he does that frequently. What I don’t understand is why? Frank is a very smart man, who has spent years studying, why would he do that?
Does he believe himself to be above the scripture? Does he just think no one will ever question his use? Is he just too lazy to properly prepare? I really am stumped.
[Comment ID #11611 Will Be Quoted Here]
I think Tom hit the nail on the head when he said that this type of hypocrisy is hardest to identify in yourself when it rewards you with the power/status/affirmation that you crave. You keep believing it because the alternative is that you must reject everything that got you there in the first place. Unless someone like Frank is willing to lose everything, he will continue to perpetuate the cycle.
I think it is yet another manifestation of the “LimLa phenomenon.”
People (i.e. dr. laura and rush) start out on the more humble side of reality when they start their talk shows, authority positions, etc. Then after daily and multiple affirmations, adulations, hooo-rahs, etc…. they become obnoxious and pompous.
Blogging: The Power of Description!
Anna said, “And if the words in this blog are used to “afflict†a few people, then so be it!” Seeminly on the other hand, Cowboy has expressed some real concerns about the ethics involved in sharing stories about spiritual abuse. Sometimes, believers can feel totally powerless before such a deeply entrenched religious spirit.
We must remember, as others have said on the blog, that any repressive, dictatorial regime thrives on secrecy. (Note the recent molestation scandal in the Catholic Church with secrets all the way up to the pope.) This is why I have come to view a senior pastor’s office/study as a potential chamber of horrors. Oh! that we could bug every abusive senior pastor’s office to hear all of the garbage that is said to further his agenda of using the people as means to his own ends! (Admittedly, not every pastor fits this description!) But, there is hope through the very blogging that we are doing!
My wife and I were recently attending a church in Vancouver. WA. The leader of the Men’s Meeting showed several R-rated movies to the men for their meetings. Only one was The Passion of the Christ by Mel Gibson. Also, in my opinion, some of the decor in the meeting room was sexually suggestive. Anyway, I wrote a letter to the leader and the Associate Pastor called me and wanted to meet with me. I said that I would meet but only under one condition, i.e., that I could bring a friend with me as a witness. Ouch! He did not like that idea at all! He tried to convince me otherwise, but I stood my ground: no witness, no meeting. I had the upper hand because he really wanted to meet with me so that he could hose me down over the concerns in my letters. So, I had a witness there through our whole conversation. And, not a total surprise, he pushed my letters aside and refused to even talk to me about my concerns! Instead, he just spent his time preaching at me (and hinting that my type wasn’t really what their church was all about).
I am new to blogging, but this CBC blog has inspired me that when I publish my book on toxic pastors that I will recommend that every church have a blog like this. Sure, I think the blog is more effective when it does not contain profanity, sarcasm, etc., but these things can reveal deeper needs of why the blog exists in the first place: to give a forum for open and honest voices who were never given a fair hearing in a repressive church environment.
When I first was pouring out my pain, disillusionment and disappointment at being asked to leave BT/PBC in such an unmanly (indirect) way, I began to pour into various books. I came acroos a book on the dictatorship in Iraq before the recent Iraqi war. In my view, this adapted quote tells us why we must continue to blog, and why every local church, especially those under the Rule of One, must have a blog to protect the people:
“The people of a church can exercise some power against spiritual abuse through the power of description. Description is the first and foremost fundamental act of resolution and intervention: ruthless, relentless, unforgiving desription…Telling true stories of spiritual abuse is the first step towards dealing with the rule of dysfuntional pastors. Spiritual abuse has a shape and form. Spiritual abuse repeats itself; it follows patterns and beats to a certain rhythm…Abusive events need to be seen not as islated incidents but as the bizarre way in which this particular system of church government sustains and reproduces itself…Through description…such church organizations can be stripped naked and understood. Moreover, the act of scrutiny, endlessly repeated, paralyzes them.”
(source: adapted from: Samir al-Khalil, Republic of Fear: the Politics of Modern Iraq, University of California Press, 1989, xi-xii)
When we get tired of blogging, let’s remember this man’s words about living under a religiously repression regime:
“…the act of scrutiny, endlessly repeated, paralyzes them.”
KM,
No, not one of the twins…
How exciting for you. I am happy for you!!
I wouldn’t want my office to be bugged, so I think I’ll give my pastors a pass on that one.
Uh David… this blog was built on sarcasm and etc. (maybe a touch of profanity as well), you wouldn’t have anything to read or write if we didn’t use our “giftings†of sarcasm to get things going.
It easy to sit back and say this should have been done this way or that, but in the end nobody was doing anything until Justin and I put our ETERNAL SOULS on the line.
And really, we don’t even care.
[Comment ID #11611 Will Be Quoted Here]
Hi Reformed Pope:
You ask an excellent question. I would like to make a few suggestions that may or may not fit Frank’s preaching and studying style.
A long time ago, the daughter of one of Frank’s mentors told me, “My father has lots of books, but he never reads them.” This can be a problem with all of us. We have books but we don’t read them. Instead, because we have to come up with material to teach/preach, and because we’re pressed for time, and because we don’t know the original languages or use solid scholoarly reference works, we settle for the quickest and easier methods.
I came to PBC, the Spring of 1972. One of the reasons I came was because I had heard of a phenomenal teacher, Kevin Conner, was going to be teaching. As I sat under Kevin’s ministry for the next couple of years, he showed me what his main Bible study method was. It was the use of the English concordance.
E.g., The reason why Kevin would interpret “leaven” as negative in the Gospel parable of Mt. 13:33, referring to the leaven “which a woman took and mixed in…” is because he is looking for self-interpretative patterns and “keys.” So, since Paul the apostle refers to “the leaven of malice and wickedness” in I Cor and since Jesus, in another place, refers to the “leaven of Herod,” and “the leaven of the Pharisees,” Kevin concludes that the word “leaven” means the same negative thing in Matthew 13:33. To save time, I will just say that if you check the context of the Parable of Leaven, you will notice that Matthew made it follow immediately after another parable of kingdom growth, the Mustard Seed Parable (vv 31-35). So, in the context the Parable of Leaven is not about mixture or sin in the church, it is about kingdom growth – beginning from just Jesus, then to the Twelve, then to the 120 then to “the uttermost parts of the earth.”
The last that I knew, Frank basically does the same thing. This is my guess at how he came up with the “one sheperd” concordance fiasco. Pastors were complaining about how Dick Iverson’s book, Team Ministry, did not reflect the true autocratic nature of BT leadership, so he wanted to use the Bible to prove the senior pastor position. He went to the Bible to prove a very important point – essential to his ministry and livelihood. He was very familiar with “sheep/shepherd” terminology, so he flipped open the concordance to “shepherd” and then started skimming down the list…….til….Aha! when he came across the phrase “one shepherd,” he probably thought that it was just what he was looking for – the one shepherd refers to the senior pastor! (This is purely a guess, on my part.) Frank told me once how Sharon would try to encourage him to read books other than Strong’s concordance.
Taking the Scripture out of context as a prooftext for preconceived values and beliefs is what every cult does. This is a concern of some Bible scholars over the biblical theology movement itself. The historical, grammatical and cultural context is left far too behind. Then you have others who say, If the apostles can take the OT out of context, so can we! This is where I beg to differ.
The best thing that a CBC member or PBC student can do in cases like this is to (1) first look up in Kevin Conner’s book, Interpreting the Scriptures, what he says about the utmost importance of context. (2) get Frank to agree with this importance – from his own father-in-law’s book, (3) ask Frank, Well, if you agree with Kevin there about the essential importance of context, Why did you completly ignore context this morning in your message?
…Say, “I feel confused, Frank…”
I can’t tell you what exactly goes on inside of Frank’s brain, but I can say that no amount of education can usually overcome one’s dominant gifting. Frank has lots of gifts, and I had hoped a long time ago that Frank and I could be lifetime buddies…………but one day he told me, “David, deep down inside of my heart, I am really a frustrated businessman!”
Well done, my good and faithful minions. I’ll make sure you don’t miss our appointment, JP.
whatHEsaid said, no worries. I know I’m a little late in responding & this thread has taken a better turn, but I wanted to acknowledge your comment (I’ve been off the blog for awhile). Peace.
David:
I have had a lot of requests from people to start a PBC blog. But I didn’t attend PBC and have zero interest in it. That said, I think there’s a need there, and if you started up a PBC blog, I would be happy to link to it, and direct the ex-pbc grads there.
As always, thanks for your thoughtful comments.
-Justin
David:
Also, just so you know, JP and I prayed about it, and we think that it’s time to start a “blog” plant. And we feel you’re just the guy to do it.
(I always get my best lines, after I click submit)
-Justin
More than once, I’ve heard others describe PF using almost these exact same words. But I never thought he would admit it to someone. I wouldn’t be surprised if he someday changed his title from “pastor” to “CEO”.
I don’t know why he is frustrated; his business is rather successful.
[Comment ID #11669 Will Be Quoted Here]
Reformed Pope,
Frank made the comment to me about being a frustrated businessman in the early 90′s. My personal opinion is that when Frank made this comment to me he was experiencing, as far as I could tell, quite a bit of frustration in his church, Eugene Christian Fellowship (ECF). Frank’s gifting, and most of his writing i think shows this, is that of a visionary. We could interpret that word differently, perhaps, but, in my view, a visionary of the business type is a leader who enjoys using money, property, talent, etc. to enlarge ministries and build churches. To me, Frank is not an introverted, mystical, other-worldly visionary. He is an extroverted, this-worldly, empire-building type of visionary. He attempts to motivate others to accomplish the many visions he has for building and expanding the kingdom of God in a very material way.
Having said that, when we were attending Frank’s church in Eugene, I got the sense that he wanted to make ECF more of an international conference center, in the same way as he has developed CBC. He seemed to want to use it as well as a base to promote his own “Maximizing Leadership, etc…” seminar ministry without the need to pay ECF rent for the facilities, and possibly some labor that would be “on-the-house.” But, in order to do these things, he needed the full cooperation of his staff and congregation.
From what I can remember, he did not get the cooperation he deeply wanted. My take was that most of the members of ECF were quite laid back people. They just wanted to have a good church in which they could raise their kids to know Jesus and enjoy one another’s fellowship. In my opinion, this laid-backness, as it were, was clearly shown by the fact that when Frank hired a professional fund-raiser (at about $30,000-$50,000) to come to ECF and raise the funds for a new education wing as well as a new sanctuary, he only got enough money to build the educational wing – but not the brand new sanctuary! I surmise that this caused Frank some inner frustration because he did not reach all of his desired goals.
More specifically, from my best recollection, Frank used one of the rooms at ECF for a book and layout designer to work in (part-time, I think) in order to lay out his seminar publications and promotions for this side ministry. If I’m correct on this, this meant that the room was not used all of the time. He had another room in the church, of which he gave me a tour one day, in which he stored his impressive book inventories.
Both of these rooms were in the church. As far as I can remember, the artist was not using his talents or equipment to do anything directly for ECF, and the ECF congregation was paying for the mortgage and utilities. (I cannot say for sure whether Frank, at some time, paid rent on either of those rooms; but I don’t think so.) To the best of my knowlege, this was all for Frank’s seminar ministry. This caused some conflict at ECF because some church members thought that since the rooms were in the church, they should be used for ECF ministries only and not for the senior pastor’s side ministry or business.
In the early 90′s, Frank’s supplementary seminar business alone brought in quite a bit of money. Frank began to talk to me about helping him with his seminars (to set up his book/tape table, etc.), and I made one trip with him to the East coast where I began to do so. I remember feeling a bit uncomfortable when Frank autographed his own books for the people who bought them in the foyer of the church in which we met. (But, maybe this should not have bothered me since I’ve asked authors to autograph their books for me, too.)
Frank told me that even Sharon, his wife, did not even know how much money he made every year through his seminars. (When he told me this, I felt quite surprised, but tried not to show it. Why would a husband keep such information from his own wife? I don’t know.) Anyway, Frank shared with me, in a secretive sort of way, that his seminars alone, at that time, were grossing him $100,000.00 per year. He made a point of telling me that this amount of money was the “gross” and not the “net” of what he was brining in through them.
Relating to money, Frank also commented to me one day that since the ministry “made him a bigger target” for the devil to attack, that he was always going to do everything within his power to make sure that he and his family would never lack financially.
Based upon my preceding comments, I never quite believed Frank when he said that, at least at first, he never really wanted to leave Eugene and move back to Portland to take over BT/PBC. It just didn’t make sense to me how a materially-oriented visionary, whose goal in life was never to lack financially, and who was having conflicts with his more rurally-minded church who did not share his vision of making ECF into an international conference center, would ever hesitate to jump at the opportunity to take over the central headquarters. His supposed hesitancy did not make sense to me either because Frank told me that he was the one who actually started MFI from behind the scenes and had allowed Dick to take the lead in it. Why wouldn’t the true catalyst of the MFI want to take over at the Mother Church?
These are some of my opinions as to why I would guess that Frank’s level of frustration is probably much lower now at CBC than it was before when he was at ECF – with one possible exception. If Frank is not receiving the full cooperation of his staff and congregation to help him accomplish his next vision – of establishing many simulcast churches throughout the area – then he could again feel the same inner frustation rise up within him. If I understand business people correctly, such personalities get frustrated when their employees do not do their jobs in the ways that they have asked them to do them – all in order to reach their ultimate goal of increasing productivity and the bottom-line.
Ira Washburn, a long-standing elder and trustee of BT, told me before he passed away recently, that Dick Iverson got extremely angry with him one day in the dome foyer for questioning his choice to go into debt for the domes. According to Ira, the message that he had been trying to share with Dick and the BT elders had been simply this: We are continually receiving from the people only about half of the money we ask for each time we ask for it. Threrefore, let us slow down the building of the domes and not go deep into debt to finish them.
Nevertheless, Dick would not listen to Ira. Ira became a thorn in his side and, apparently, a cause of deep frustation and anger. Today, partially as a result of Dick’s unilateral decision to build the domes with debt bonds, CBC has a pastor/businessman who preaches an unbiblical doctrine of the mandatory tithe, an annual fund-raising heresy called the Faith Harvest Offering, etc. putting more and more financial burdens onto God’s people.
I know that the times that spouses get the most frustrated or angry at their life-partners is when they feel that they need their cooperation to accomplish a certain goal, and they, for some reason, are not giving it to them. Unfortunatelty, goal-centered and business-oriented ministry works the same way. Under the reign of the Rule of One, the pastor-king needs the total cooperation of all of his subjects in order to expand his kingdom. But, when he does not get it, then look out. The heart of the king might manifest itself.
I recall a service down on 76th and Glisan when Dick Iverson relayed that they had gone to the bank and asked for a multi-million dollar loan to finance “the property” as he felt God had told him to move there that year… this being about February of 1991. He then proceeded to tell the church body and then lead them in a prayer for God to come against satan for interfering with the loan. Never mind that BT had ALWAYS had the premise of pay as you go, God will provide the necessary funds.
At the time my thought was that it was GOD closing the doors on MAN’S efforts to make something God may have wanted to happen. It had NOTHING to do with satan… well, perhaps satan messing with leadership of BT and making them think they needed to go hugely in debt.
I recall a story from someone at ECF back in those days… Monday mornings when the offering was being counted for deposit, etc., and Frank was on his way out of town for seminars, what have you, he would take loose change, bills to have money for whatever on his trip. And something to the effect that it was not trackable money anyway. Also that he would have elders/staff of the church go to work on remodeling his personal home while being paid salary by the church to do church work….
I have no reason whatsoever to doubt the validity of these statements, and they have stuck with me all these years …
One of the biggest regrets I have is when Joey and I were first married we gave 100% of his paychecks to the building of the domes. We did not put any in savings and we did not set aside any for a down payment on a home (it would’ve been a huge down payment if we had). After all, we were “investing into eternity” and were going to receive “a hundred fold blessing” and besides “you can’t outgive God”. I wish somebody had told us to invest into Microsoft instead!
If only we’d had the wisdom to see we were buying into somebody’s vision at the risk of our own financial security (us little folks like to have financial security too). But we were good little worker bees (commonly referred to as drones) and wanted to be well thought of (I’m sure we must’ve let people know what we were doing so they could see how holy we were). Ick.
It’s like a form of communism, these bigwig pastors growing rich on the backs of the regular folks in their church. But it’s done in the name of Jesus so who’s going to argue?
[Comment ID #11609 Will Be Quoted Here]
Took us about 10 minutes to identify you by personality (and smile), but Dave and I had a good guess and confirmed with the “eclipse of the soul”.
Small world,
Cheers
Lance,
I don’t recognize your last name? Are you the Lance who took the “bride” to the last banquet?
KM
Yep, that’s me.
Dave you indeed have a knack for gossip. You little devil you……..
Haaaaaa! Im cracking up!!!
[Comment ID #11938 Will Be Quoted Here]
HI Cowboy,
Thanks…I don’t post these things for the sake of gossip, however; as a matter of fact, I don’t consider them to be gossip. If we define that word as “sharing private information with those who are not a part of the problem or the solution,” (per Bill Gothard’s IBYC seminar), then I share them because I feel that every serious reader is a part of the solution! I agree with others on this blog, who have identified that one of the hallmarks of abusive leadership and unhealthy churches is the back room silencing of dissenters and a deep culture of secrecy. I want to bring out into the light, the things that, unfortunately, are still continuing in darkness. May His light shine! As another blogger said: if we are walking in love and truth, what do we have to fear?
This also goes for judging. Have you every been told that you are judging when sharing your concernes, insights or facts about some church organization or its leadership?
I found in my studies that Jesus’ command not judge is specifically not have an opinion about the personal lifes of others (Zodiates). This does not apply to the sharing of facts and feelings you have about your experience with Ministers of God who tell you to think, believe and act in unhealthy ways.
A leadership book once said if you don’t allow for the people to communicate sideways about the faults of yourself or the company, you are headed for unhealthy disaster.
Yes. The word judge warrants closer examination however. Judgment includes both a finding of guilt or innocence AND the assignment of punishment or reward. In biblical terms, judgment belongs to the Father, and is carried out when a person dies. Discernment on the other hand, applies to spirits, teachings, prophetic words, etc., and we are specifically instructed to exercise discernment by the Spirit.
The person who accuses you of judging when you are simply expressing your discernment about a situation, needs to enroll in Church 101.
Sam
[Comment ID #11940 Will Be Quoted Here]
So you have exhausted all means to “redress a wrong”, privately?…
Cowboy,
Above you said,
Unfortunately, I do not have the time to discuss the nuanced response of your posts
Why should David respond to your sarcastic question? What is your motive for blogging here?
Dave, You have brought to light a lot of what was suspected as I began to “use the brain God gave me”. I recall a meeting in the 76th & Glisan building when we realized that we could no longer “give sacrificially” when leadership began to throw aside the “pay as you go” mentality that had always been the halmark of our building program. It was a beginning, of sorts, to the awakening/realization that things were rather “cult-like”. The other big time of realization was the entire “Constitution” fiasco. It was gut wrenching to me and a number of my close friends at BT. We could see the dangers and didn’t understand why others couldn’t. I could not believe we were required to sign our ballots and afterward those who dared to vote “no” were talked to by an elder. Of course I never was because I was “only” a woman so who cares. It was apparent to me at the time that giving the senior pastor the kind of power the constitution was giving him was setting BT up in the case of a “megalomaniac” type of guy becoming senior pastor. It would be virtually impossible to get him out. And how ironic things have happened the way they have.
The sad thing in all this is that I bought the whole “we are your family” thing and was waaayyyyyy over-invested in the place. When the time came to make the break it was so incredibly painful. My entire life was so wrapped up in the place. Add to it the fact that I had homeschooled my children there and it made for a very difficult time. My family invested so much, sacrificed so much.
I’m glad Frank is making sure HIS family is provided for. On the backs of others. Pretty sick shit. But, Karma comes back. (I can say that now). Otherwise known as sowing and reaping. I’m just so glad I am out from under the dysfunction. God has truly provided for me in spite of my ignorance and choices. I would definitely do the BT part differently if I got a “do over”.
sparrow355,
I wanted to respond due to the irony of today when I had a flash back to the timing of your post.
As an 18 year old I prophesied one night at the 72nd building under the Spirit that we were all too focus on the ‘Future’ and not enough on the ‘Now’. That the emphasis on building and getting it ‘done’ was distracting from the work of the saints ‘now’. I felt in my spirit that if we would just keep working with what we have, God would bring whatever he wanted for us later.
Well, the next day (Monday) Bob Wager pulls me out of PBC class into his office sits me down and wants to know what I thought of ‘my word’ on Sunday. I was lost, what did he want to hear? I said, “Fine I guess, what do you think of my word?†(keep in mind I’m an 18 year old freshman and he is the dean of students)
Then he proceeded to tell word came down from Dick that it was not ‘in the flow’. I didn’t know what to say. Internally I though that was ridiculous because another very anointed lady sang a song that night which was right in the flow (confirmation of mine). Of course I didn’t stand up to Bob, he was the drone (messenger) at that point.
Shortly afterwords I picked up a book from the shelf at Christian Supply titles “When NOT to buildâ€. It had a small test which questions whether you’re are doing what is in the wisdom of God when building. The dome project failed on almost every question. I felt like photocopying the whole test with prelude and placing one in every elders office mail box ( very Jerry McGwire like).
Hi Sparrow,
What you wrote brought this scripture to mind:
For there is no permanent city for us here on earth; we are looking for the city which is to come. (Hebrews 13:14 GNB)
Perhaps the disappointment you feel (me too), has more to do with us, having taken our eyes off the “city which is to come”, and focusing instead on a city made by men.
Some of us, myself included, have looked so hard, worked so diligently, to make such a city here on earth … but what do we know? We can’t even get the foundation right (Jesus!) … we build upon programs, traditions, buildings, etc. No wonder the cities of our building take on the appearance of a garbage dump when God throws some light on them.
And I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared and ready, like a bride dressed to meet her husband. (Revelation 21:2 GNB)
It sounds to me like you are in the place of transition, between realizing (and grieving) that there is no city for us here on earth, and focusing on the city that the Lord has made. Perhaps that is what is meant by Revelation 21:1, which says:
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth. The first heaven and the first earth disappeared, and the sea vanished. (Revelation 21:1 GNB)
The old world – our attempt at a holy city on earth – has disappeared for us – and the seas of people who tried to build it? Have vansihed for we now understand that to attempt such a building program, was madness. Now, we are beginning to see and focus on that new heaven and earth that the Lord has made – where we already experience some of the beauty of that new heaven and earth:
I heard a loud voice speaking from the throne: “Now God’s home is with people! He will live with them, and they shall be his people. God himself will be with them, and he will be their God. He will wipe away all tears from their eyes. There will be no more death, no more grief or crying or pain. The old things have disappeared.“ (Revelation 21:3-4 GNB)
He is indeed with us and living in us NOW, by the Holy Spirit. And in the transition between the ways of men who chafe against the flesh to build kingdoms / cities on earth, all that is indeed disappearing for us, as we focus on the Lord’s way and look for His city.
It’s funny Sparrow – I live 1 block from a church – and occasionally I hear their hammers and saws – their silly church bells trumpeting their religious services … but as imposing as that building is in this small farming community, I don’t really notice it because the reality of God IN me is so much greater, and that fellowship with Him via the Spirit so much sweeter than anything they can offer in a choreographed hour long religious presentation. Sometimes they’re loud enough to disturb my peace here, but they can never sustain their fervor. It’s kinda sad and funny at the saem time. It would be much quieter around here if they could see what the Father let me see.
Jack
[Comment ID #11949 Will Be Quoted Here]
Many……..However, i will be more charitable with my words; if this site can be more charitable!!! Yay, lets give a “shout out” to christian charity.jk
Oh, and jack You sound like Joseph Smith. He unabashedly expressed how the church was a modern “heresy.”
Our zeitgeist should be to reform the church not flatten it!!!
[Comment ID #12006 Will Be Quoted Here]
You have many, but you do not mention one. Why are you hiding?
Lance, Let me just say that at the time I felt the very same way. We were focused too much on the future and became impatient and violated our own principles. From the description you give it sounds like you heard right. And you were not alone. I’m sorry you were “reprimanded” for what you said. How courageous for an 18 year old to speak up the way you did!
John444, I think you are right, it is a transition time. We each have to discover that it isn’t about a physical building. It makes me uneasy, that church has existed as congregations and buildings for quite some time and now there is a new definition, a new appearance. I guess I’m not big on risk taking and to allow “church” or the “Body of Christ” or the “fellowship of believers” to take on a new look is risky. And yet, not to is worse. But how do we avoid the same mistakes that we have already experienced? Lots to think about.
Lance,
Cowboy is a T.R.O.L.L.
I’ve thought for some time that Cowboy is a girl. There’s some feminine tendencies in Cowgirl‘s posts. First of all, no straight guy would talk like that. Then there’s the chick-fight tendency of Cowboy to hit and run. Even the stuff she throws out there is kinda slap-like where at most there’s just a little sting to it or it’s annoying like a fly buzzing around your head. There is definitely NO strength / substance behind what she’s got to say.
If I had to guess, Cowgirl has man issues of some sort. The only ones she’s hissed at here are the outspoken men, whom I suspect she sees as father-figure types or authoritarian. Maybe Cowgirl is a wannabe minister, oppressed by a male-dominated (damn that Paul!) institution.
Don’t let her bug you, Lance. Toss her some chocolate and some Midol and maybe she’ll calm down.
‘Scrupe
Scurpe,
Yes, TROLL was comming to my mind and I appreciate your support.
I also suspect Cowboy to be a bitter female; the intellectual facade she wears in personnal life and in this forum is probably a work that has been under fabrication for quite some time. A form of protection against being hurt again.
Her new protection is most likely the 501(c)3 church; a system we are exposing. That is probably the reason for her aggresive defense mechanism and why she attacks the form members.
However, I truly wanted to give her a chance to respond with transparency, in hopes of planting a seed of love and truth. Who knows?
Cheers,
I like it.
Agreed, Lance. Still, chocolate and Midol couldn’t hurt.
‘Scrupe
[Comment ID #12010 Will Be Quoted Here]
sparrow355,
Thank you for the understanding and affirmation. Who would’ve known the incident would been discussed in a forum 20 years later?
Blessings,
[Comment ID #12012 Will Be Quoted Here]
Are we insecure boys?………
Your hapless dialogue really cracked me up-thanks for the laugh!!!
I know its unfair to keep my posts so pithy, but I just dont have the time you boys have. Or shud I say girls, I mean aliens, na how about purple, flying elephants. Thats it!!!
I have been very suspicious, lately. You almost got me for a second; however, your penchant for elephant talk gave it away-
Whew-say hello to your friend dumbo!!!
I really don’t believe in the tithe, but i think he does a good job talking about offerings. thanks for the information. it was great read. there were a ton of feedbacks, so i didn’t read much of that, but the main blog was very informative. thanks.