According to the Capitol Hill Property Sales Database, on September 18, 2006 the City Church purchased this Capitol Hill row house on the left for 1.4 million dollars. (I apologize for the grainy picture, my cellphone isn't that great).
One and a half million dollars seems like a lot of money for a church in Seattle, Washington to spend on a church/home in DC. Especially, when there are literally hundreds of churches already on Capitol Hill. (I know because I live on Capitol Hill, and I pass several of them every weekend on my way to the bar.)
You'll also be interested to know that Frank "Give til it Hurts" Damazio is on the leadership team of this church, along with Wendell Smith. So next time you CBC'ers and City Churchers write that tithe/Faith Harvest check, remember you're not feeding the hungry, you're not clothing the poor, you're buying a House in DC.
But then, helping people isn't Wendell's vision.
The Vision of the new church is to influence the nations of the earth from our nation's Capitol.
That makes sense. I mean who has time to help the poor and the lost, when you're trying to influence nations.
Isn’t that where the Cosby’s used to live?
Hey Justin,
Do churches typically meet in row houses in DC? In terms of getting people together for ‘services’, it would seem to have made more sense to lease a office/retail space in a business area, like where there’s parking available, not in a neighborhood of row houses where on Suday mornings when people are home, there’s no parking available for church goers.
Note, I was in my mid 30′s the first time I visited the east coast, having lived all my life in the Seattle area. The lifestyle, history, architecture there was an eye opener – houses without yards, parking on the street 2 vehicles deep, congestion. What I’m asking is, for us life-long PNWers, accustomed to steepled church buildings on large lots and ample parking, what’s the church scene like there building/lot wise? Is a row-house church typical?
Thanks bro!
Jack
Why don’t you guys add “influence the nations” to your list of one-liners. What the hell does that even mean? Why don’t they narrow the scope just a wee bit–hey, maybe they could start by reaching out to the poor…in SEATTLE.
Also, don’t forget “take this city” when you compile your list.
I’m sorry, but spending that money on new digs at Capitol Hill strikes me as lame. That money could have done a lot of good elsewhere. I wonder how much The Global Fund could have accomplished with that money in Africa. But, then, I guess it is more important to fly MFI pastors to Africa for conferences at existing church plants than it is to supply meals to orphans and purchase anti-viral vaccines for HIV-positive pregnant African women.
Go Democrats!
Karli
With the fall of Rev. Haggard, someone needs to slide in and fill the void. Why not City Church?
One does wonder, tho, how much influence the religious right will have in a post-2006 political landscape.
$1.4 million could have done a lot of good at home.
Funny you should mention Reverend Haggard, since he also seems to be on the leadership committee.
I guess Wendell didn’t think his cousin’s D.C. rowhouse prayer center was influential enough.
You’ll also be interested to know that Frank “Give til it Hurts” Damazio is on the leadership team of this church, along with Wendell Smith
oops.. that came out backwards on the quote
And anyway, the poor and the “lost” don’t always smell nice, look nice, or generally have anything nice to offer you in return. I love that the church people I grew up with were quick to use that verse about the poor always being with you to justify (constantly) spending their money on material things. You know, cause the poor…. they are always there. So why get too worried about them? Never mind the actual words and work of Jesus, who certainly never taught that status and material things would be the hallmark of his followers. Damn that Jesus and the way he always messes with our tidy little lives….
Yes, absolutely. But I don’t think this is really about setting up a church. This looks more like a lobbying office. To me, this seems to be about getting Wendell more power and influence. aka something similar to The National Prayer Center, which is right around the corner from Wedell’s church.
The crazy thing is that Wendel’s late to the party. Yesterday’s election was pretty much a repudiation of most of the hardcore evanglical right. Santorum lost. (big) Katherine Harris lost. (big) and Conrad Burns lost.
Not that Evangelicals can’t have a say in politics, but the Evangelical message better be tied into raising the minimum wage, providing better health care and getting us safely out of Iraq.
Not that Evangelicals can’t have a say in politics, but the Evangelical message better be tied into raising the minimum wage, providing better health care and getting us safely out of Iraq.
Exactly. It’s no that they’re late to the party, it’s that the party’s over. O-V-E-R. A year ago a million-and-a-half would have been a good down payment on a place near the federal teat. But that baby is drying up! There will be no more conference calls. No more power breakfasts. It’s over.
I did get a chuckle out of the Thursday night services. Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t Thursday the last day of the week in Congress? So that leaves just enough time to get together, sing the new Bebo Norman tune, pass the collection plate, and get down to Reagan National on Friday morning. Because as we both know, only losers and poor people fly out of BWI.
You’re absolutely right. That is their plan. I spoke to a girl who attended the Thursday Night Service and she said they were meeting on Thursdays, because they wanted to attract Senators and members of Congress, who were probably flying home on Friday.
Of course, when you only have a 3 day workweek, you end up working pretty hard those three days. And most votes go until late Thursday night, so the Church probably isn’t going to attract that many high profile politicians.
Also, I fly out of BWI. And yes, I’m a loser and I’m poor.
Catalyst, I think it’s worth pointing out that the location couldn’t be any closer to the Offices of the House members. They didn’t just buy a row house in D.C., they bought themselves a location right across the street from where the legislators do their business.
So this “church office” – it makes me wonder if they will try to walk the fine line of having it function as part of the church, or as a means to lobb- er, have vision for the nations. Couldn’t call it a lobby now, could we? That would cause them to lose their non-taxable status. I’d hate to see the church have to pay taxes on a home worth $900k.
I just got some fascinating news last night…thought you might get a kick out of it in light of City Church’s new digs in Washington DC….perhaps they are needing to cut costs to pay for their ‘house’…
City Church called CLF last night and told them that they would no longer be allowed to pick up food from their distribution center for their “Lord’s Pantry” ministry where they provide food for the poor in Grays Harbor…They told the fella who runs the ministry that what CLF did to poor “Dougy’ was an abomination, and so they didn’t want to have anything to do with CLF. They also told the fella, who attends CLF, that if he wanted to move to another building that City Church would provide in Aberdeen, that they could still pick up food. He confirmed, “You mean I have to leave my church for you to allow me to get food to feed the poor?”
“Yep”….:o)
A D.C. house and cutting off food banks?
Tell me where to send my thanks.
Seems to be a little blithe
And not good stewarship of tithes.
I’d rather send my money to The Gospel Mission.
They’ve got more of a Christ-like vision.
Food is not purposed for power might
In the midst of two churches’ leadership fight.
No, food is not meant as a weapon in war,
It should be used as a blessing to feed the poor!
I have so much to say about this I am speechless! Ask some of us who actually stayed at the Prayer Center –many indeed –we felt like we were at someone’s
‘east coast condo.’
It’s finally time to tell you —research Tom Delay and Ed Buckham –and their indictments –Christian brothers there on the hill–helping set us up in the house money connections. When will this all come out? We’re waiting to see.
If you want to see how this could end just read the blogasphere on these fine fellows—–’our good friends’
Would love to hear how you ran across this sale info.
Did city church make the info public yet or is this happening behind closed
doors.
Ask yourselves what is the real reason behind the DC ministry.
The City Church has been meeting in DC for the past six months and I knew they were looking to buy a place. I live on the Hill and I think DC is experiencing a Housing Bubble, so I’m constantly checking the sales price of homes to see if they’re coming down. (They are.) Anyway, I accidentally stumbled across the City Church sale, and yadda yadda yadda… I had to check it out.
“You just yadda yaddad the best part”
There’s more to the story on the house in D.C.
The Church is not happy with “as is”, you see.
The City shows action, remodeling, and such.
There’s laying on of hands with a gentle touch.
The City gave permits 3 times in October
For the Church to give the place a once over.
New doors, new windows, new fence.
Will this up the price for their rents?
Why a “church” there? I simply don’t know?
Perhaps next they’ll buy into Embassy Row!
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I hate it when you guys keep the good stuff to yourselves!
http://dcra.dc.gov/dcra/lib/dcra/services/permits/permit.pdf
131 C Street is the location, to wit.
Follow this link to see each permit.
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Actually the building they were going to provide was in Hoquiam.
It’s almost sick to think about… who would really do this kinda stuff to people when they are “Perfect”? I think these City Church people really need to find out what this “Pastor” Doug did! I have seen this guy in action. If I didn’t know what was going on I would totally be drawn in by his lies. I think that if Wendell really knew what was going on none of this would be happening! Do they think that senior pastors are “gods”? They are just people like everyone else. What makes them any different? All this stuff that is going on just makes me sick! What the heck! it isn’t right to take from the poor (that by the way have done nothing wrong) just because you are angry at people (who did the right thing) who are trying to protect the sheep in the flock. The people who were supposed to be respectable have just lost my respect completely.
The City church purchased the house in D.C. so visiting pastors, politicians, ambasadors from other countries would have a nice place to stay, FREE. I guess that could be a sin. I have’nt found it in my bible yet.
Is it really just to have a nice place to stay?
The math doesn’t seem to pencil out that way.
Invest the $1.4 million at 6 percent
And you get $84,000 per year to pay rent.
At $500 per night, which is high in D.C.
That’s 168 hotel rooms per year, you see.
A higher percentage or lower room cost
Gets you more hotel nights, if my point is not lost.
And let’s not forget, when at hotels you stay
There’s no staff wages for the Church to pay
Who makes the bed, cleans the room, serves the meal?
Factor that in, and its not such a good deal.
Better to preach the Gospel of Christ
Than to offer hotel rooms like those others high priced.
You favor the favored, and offer them ease
But what do you do unto the “least of these?”
While letting the mighty and high through the door
You are turning your back on the hungry and poor.
Isn’t it a shame that ‘poor’ Ambassadors can’t afford a hotel room?
Right! ‘like lambs to a slaughter’
If the City Church wants to spend millions of dollars to help out the rich and powerful, then fine. But I don’t think that glorifies Christ. I think that glorifies Wendell Smith.
and certainly makes them look good and charitable to all their rich pastor friends.
there’s a scene in Forest Gump where his girlfriend Jenny throws rocks at the windows of the house she grew up in –a place that obviously caused her great pain. Forest later says: sometimes there just aren’t enough rocks.
Where’s my rock?
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You are of course entitled to your opinion, but don’t you think that providing a place for politicians to stay provides a useful tool to lead unsaved politicians to Christ? Especially those from unsaved nations? I suppose you could just put them up in a nice hotel, but then you wouldn’t be able to influence them as well. It’s not about the money or the reputation. It’s about the great commission. I suppose you could also give the 1.4 mil. to the poor, but Jesus himself said the poor will always be among you. Are we to cease all other missions to focus on just feeding the poor? That wasn’t the only thing Christ told us to do. That was just one thing.
make disciples of all nations
That’s not even the real issue. I don’t know if anyone here claims to be a christian, but if you do I would warn you with this scripture.
Matthew 7:1 “Judge not , that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.”
Only God knows the heart of a man. Unless you know Pastor Wendell Smith personally I would challenge that you would have no clue as to what his true desires are, and therefore all of the conjectures that have been made at Pastors expense are hallow and do nothing, but perpetuate your own hatred and disgust.
Let’s see here……… Many of us posting here have known him and his MO for over 30 years. How long have you known him and his MO? (It sounds like you are very young Matt… MO means modus operandi… aka how he operates).
And Matt… if you don’t like what is said here on this blog… DON’T read the blog. Obviously you are just a newbie or you would have read previous postings that explain the MO of this blog.
Please enlighten me. What is the “MO” of this blog?
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Providing a venue for blind fools to post. So how’s that braille keyboard working out for you, Matt?
‘Scrupe
I apolagize for my previous comments. I was just a bit hurt when I stumbled upon a blog that was bashing my pastor and church and its vision. I am a changed man, because of the city church and its pastors. If you can ever recall a time when your parents were bad mouthed by some one you’ll understand how I feel. I won’t comment any more, because it is obvious to me that the only responses I will recieve are sarcastic and insulting. I really do wish everyone the best and do not mean to offend.
Matt— Many of us had positive impact in our lives when Wendell was over the youth and young adults, teaching in PBC and an elder at Bible Temple. God does use Wendell as a vessel. God uses lots of people as vessels.
Wendell is a very charismatic, generally likeable guy. He has vision and enthusiasm and people are drawn in by that. Many of us were. This does not mean that he is perfect. This does not mean that he does not abuse his authority. This does not mean that people are not mislead. Look what Jim Jones was able to accomplish with his charisma and position.
Wendell has always been a “bigger is better” person when it comes to promoting what he believes he has heard from God to be the agenda. Is he wrong in his beliefs? Perhaps. Perhaps not. Is his method of achieving the vision/agenda/plan on the straight and narrow and pure? That is questionable.
Why a ministry to the flashy, financially solvent people in D.C? Why not put all that money and effort into reaching the community where you all live? In tight econonic times and many people struggling to feed and clothe and house their families, pouring $1,400,000 plus remodeling expenses, plus insurance, plus taxes, plus utilities, plus upkeep, plus staff salaries…….. is this a wise use of God’s money?
There was an elderly charismatic woman who lives nearby, who has a heart to see revival come to the small die-hard traditional midwest town in which she lives. She often received words and talked to me about them – and many of them sounded flakey to me – but I was respectful of her as an elderly woman.
It’s a poor community – farmers were hard hit that year due to drought – there were other members in her main church that didn’t have enough and were forced to choose between food, heat, medicine …
She was also a TBN addict, and routinely sent “seed money” off to Virginia Beach to ministers who promised to pray for you for a donation – and particularly ministers who promised to pray for revival in your town for a minimum donation of ___ (fill in the blank). One minister used to preach from the Psalms and often would ask for a monetary amount equal to the chapter and verse from the Psalms he preached from. For example, preaching from Psalm 81:11 he’d ask for a faith pledge for $81.11 – so she would write and mail a check, because it “sounded right” to her.
Finally came the last time I ever talked to her. She asked me what I thought of sending $81.11 to a man in Virginia for revival in Princeton, Illinois.
I replied “It’s foolishness. Why would you send money to someone 1000 miles away for revival here? If I asked you for $81.11, you would think me a heretic.”
…
If it’s foreign nations Wendell wants to influence, why not take that same $1.5M, and send out 30 missionaries at $50K apiece to 30 different countries? That would sponsor many missionaries for 2 years or more in some of the poorer 3rd world countries … that kind of money would buy you about 60 man-years of seed-sewing / reaping labor. How does that compare to a few hours a week of Thursday night meetings, or the occasional foreign dignitary who flops in that row-house?
Which is the better stewardship? I think the answer is clear, but since they did something contrary to practical common sense, I’m left wondering what is the ulterior motive / hidden agenda?
Jack
I can’t answer those questions. All I know is if God told me to start a church in DC and to buy a house there I would do it even if it doesn’t make common sense. The bible in several stories and instances, I believe, challenges us to not be held back by common sense, to step out in faith, so God can show himself all powerful. Do I know if this was a wise use of God’s money? No. But I can say with cofidence wherever there are unsaved people there is a need for more churches.
When I was trying to decide which college to go to there was one that made the least amount of sense, but the doors were wide open. The other colleges reallisticly had the same basic program. I could have saved 15,000 dollars by going to a local college. Common sense told me go to a local college, God told me to go to the expesive one 2000 miles away from home. Since then I’ve had several people tell me I was stupid for going there and that I could’ve recieved the same training for a lot less money. I might have saved money, but in my heart I know God told me to go and looking back I can see why. Being that far from home caused me to grow in ways I wouldn’t have locally.
That is my issue in all of this. The only thing we have as far as visible means for judging whether or not it was the right use for the money, is the fruit. In my opinion only time will tell. I don’t believe the answer is so clear and I don’t believe anyone on this planet can know the true answer to any of those questions.
I appreciate you guys responding in a way that assumes I’m a semi-intelligent human being. If you don’t want my presence on this forum I will leave, but personally I appreciate a challenge to what I believe every once in a while.
I know I made a sarcastic response in this comment and I apologize, but I was trying to get intelligent responses not a bunch of comments that were insulting to me and my intelligence or lack there of. I believe that if your going to debate the validity of a pastors decision you need some one on the pro side. Which presently there doesn’t appaer to be any.
So, Matt. What do you think about your pastor stopping food from coming to our church food bank? 200 families used the food bank.
What did Wendell say about CLF and Doug Cotton at your church?
Do you think it was right for Wendell to provide your staff lawyer for a senior pastor that was verbally and emotionally abusing church members?
Stick around. You seem thoughtful and intelligent. And you use proper grammar when writing. This is a plus.
Matt, if I’m reading this correctly, it sounds like you bankrolled the project? And on the premise that you wanted to start a church there? In a row house? I can see why you take it so personally then. You are personally vested both in finances and vision. You are the best person to speak on the “pro side”, yet you have yet to truly defend your position. I can’t speak for everyone here, but I’m not adverse to you posting here to tell your side of the story. I couldn’t think of a better opportunity than to hear it straight from the man who is driving this thing.
Can I ask some questions? Whose idea was this? What I mean to ask is, did you feel the leading of the Holy Spirit to start a church there and buy that house completely independent of the influence of Wendell Smith and the City Church vision for D.C.? Or were there a lot of messages, talk, and prophecy from Wendell about his dream for a place there, and you said to yourself, well, gee, I’ve got enough money to buy something there, so maybe I can be the one to make it happen? I’m not being accusatory here, I’m just asking. Are you a pastor yourself? Do you plan on moving there? What’s your role in this now that the deal is done?
Really? Why? Because you didn’t ask them yourself? Seems to me like if it was me that was going to spend $1.4 million on a “ministry” that had no seemingly concrete goals, I’d be asking a lot of questions first. Maybe the money doesn’t mean that much to you, but the knee-jerk reaction of the folks around here (as you’ve seen for yourself) was that it might have been spent better elsewhere.
My premise may be wrong here, and maybe it wasn’t you that financed the purchase and the money came from other sources. But every contributing (tithing) member of Wendell’s church should be asking these same questions! If you don’t believe in the “vision” and that this was the best decision, then speak up!
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Matt,
I’m sorry. Sometimes I’m an ass. Hang around, K?
‘Scrupe
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OK. Most of the time.
‘Scrupe
[Comment ID #11518 Will Be Quoted Here]
All right all ready, Lord! I’M ALWAYS AN ASS! There, are you happy now?!?
‘Scrupe
I don’t think a national prayer center is warranted when you consider how God used twelve uneducated and unconnected fisherman so long ago.
Somehow I can’t see one of the disciples or Paul lobbying their congregations for more giving so that they could buy property in Rome for the “empires prayer center”.
You have to admitt that the comparison makes you think.
Hmmm………………..
Joey,
The Roman National Prayer Center got to me. The comparisons are endless.
And you use paragraphs. I’m a big fan of paragraphs.
Matt, I used to help with the National Prayer Center, give money to it, pray for it. I so know the excitement you are coming from that this will make a difference and do the things you hope it will do. It all sounds great –a whole new vision and ministry within a ministry.
There is so much recent history with Tom Delay and Ed Buckham who worked closely with the NPC. As a good steward and supportere you need to look up what their recent history is. How do you think we got involved with them and why did they get involved with us more importantly.
Even with the best of intentions unwillingly Christians can get involved in the shadiest of dealings when it comes to politics and money.
Ask yourself how the house was purchased –what people are they accountable to when spending 1.4 mil on such a residence. As a non profit
who are they accountable to as far as financials –can you ask to see them?
How about are there any financial records even public?
Are things just ‘done’ and then announced later in church- then you are asked to give to the ‘nation’ and ‘get excited about it.’
As you see other benefactors come into the process keep asking questions.
Having your ‘good friends or relatives’ on your board doesn’t cut it any more for financial accountability. The history is right around the corner from you –look at their financial records –or rather ‘good luck’ if you are able to.
Remember Influence Peddling works both ways.
A Concerned Citizen
This is one of the ways we go astray as Christians, looking to our pastors or leaders as parents when 2 adults shouldn’t engage in a parent/child relationship. We set ourselves up for great disappointment, which most of us on this blog have learned the hard way. It’s really pretty embarrasing to learn that you’ve been looking to your pastor as a dad, at least it was for me.
I don’t think Jesus ever intended this type of relationship with our leadership. It reduced grown adults into children and undermines our own effectiveness for God. We should be busy about our true Father’s business rather than emotionally binding ourselves to a fellow servant who thinks he or she is a father.
So true TCR. We felt like it was something we had discovered and ‘figured out’ that they truly felt we were children and they were the parents till we stumbled onto the MFI web page and this is spelled out as one of their tenets.
The leaders feel and are instructed they are the Parents and we are the children.
That explains alot doesn’t it? You wouldn’t ask your children for input or advice if you were thinking of buying a new house in Washington D.C. would you?
Matt -It has occured to me you don’t know why we’re giving you this information. We are trying to protect you from walking down a road
of pain we all experienced. Believe me nothing will rock your faith world more
than trusting in all of this -esp. the D.C. stuff and then to find out its
not what thought.
Remember you have every right to ask questions and ask them now.
Out of curiosity are you a 20 something intern?
Don’t forget to research Jack Abramoff who is now in prison as of Wednesday
morning. Oh yea he was also good friends with Buckham and Delay -
and look up the NPR interview with a pastor who felt ‘used’ by the whole bunch
when he was asked to be on their board. Its very interesting reading.
Would you like to know who went to his club in Washington D.C.?
Sorry you’ll have to do your own research.
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If your point is that Tom Delay is corrupt, then yes I agree with you. If your point is that Tom Delay used an Evangelical leader in MD to make himself more powerful, I also agree with you. Delay used the Christian Community to further himself.
For more fun on the corruption within the Christian Coalition read about Ralph Reed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_E._Reed%2C_Jr.
If you have information that ties any of these people to churches in the NW, that would be great.
Of course there is more information but we’d have to meet in a garage
aka: All the Presidents Men to tell you. Actually I’m not the Deep Throat
needed in this scenario. We’re waiting to see how it will all turns out too. We scan the blogs and wait.
The point being if you set up shop thinking you’re going to influence those who are firmly entrenched there -be wise who you get involved with or who you take money from. I
Our big question is why do Pastors from the Northwest even have to set up shop back there. Or if they feel they are called to it Catalyst than why not delegate others locally to take care of their sheep. No one person can do it all as Haggard would probably now have to agree.
If the Northwest Pastors are called to do it then when will they learn from Buckham’s lessons that you are considered a non profit agency. When you
don’t use money or designated funds for what you said you were raising the money for it is a crime.
Question: if a church doesn’t make any of its financial records open even to its elders why is there reason to believe a ministry set up on the other side of the country will be open with their dealings too?
It’s kind of ironic that the guy that they’re getting to pastor this new church
has a degree in Law and has been doing law stuff “on the side” while pastoring in the past. What better place than DC?
I’ll give you $5 to TP the place Justin, and post a picture here. $10 if you put a neon BUD sign in the window.
Sam
The Kirkland City Church is my neighbor. I feel as though I live next to a compound. In my experiences with them I find them to be oppressive and devisive. They do not seem to me to be concerned with my family’s well being at all. They play loud “rock music” and strike me as generally inconsiderate towards us.
In the lobby during “business hours” you can often find some young man in security mode complete with earpiece on a cord. I can’t tell you what kind of hell it is living beside them. It’s bad and we are trying to leave.
They seem to have a great deal of money.
City Church Neighbor, I am so sorry to hear about how miserable it is for you to live next to that church. Just more evidence that their view of themselves differs drastically from the view of “outsiders.” I hope you can move elsewhere soon…although the housing market up there is pretty insane, isn’t it?
Good luck!!!
Matrix
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Sorry pal. i don’t know what you’re smoking but tom delay has never even been to the national prayer center. sure, he’s had people pray for him in the national prayer center….two different things. “east coast condo”, i’m sorry you must be poor because you’ve obviously never seen a real east coast condo. and ed buckham has nothing to do with the national prayer center either…neither does this new dc church.
people…if you’re going to blog then at least do some proper research. my gosh.
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and you’re a so-called young republican you lives and works on the hill as a pseudo-intellectual. you may think that’s successful…i call it a dime a dozen pal.
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what is this “we” crap about? who are you? stop trying to speak as one with authority in this sweet heart.
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just because you gave some money and prayed for the national prayer center, ONE DAY, doesn’t mean you “worked” for the national prayer center. give me a break. stop creating your own credibility on something you have no credence in.
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out of curiosity, are you a freak? stop talking to him like he’s 4. sweet heart, do you hear a helicopter? because i hear something hovering. STOP TALKING TO HIM LIKE YOUR HIS MOM….its insanely annoying.
Well, this freaking war turned me into a Democrat. So while I’m still registered Republican, I identify with the D’s.
And yes, young intelligent people are a dime a dozen in DC. But there’s a sersious lack of young funny people, and I’m trying to fill that void.
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I always thought that people who post in all caps were talking like a mother.
Rae sounds like Jr High and I find that insanely annoying. (Way to totally miss the point Rae. So mature of you.)
Rae I wondered when someone would finally respond to this bit of truth – So do you work for them now as an intern? And for how long?
Ed Buckham has never been there? I think you are smoking weed. Who do you think got them the property or ‘helped behind the scenes.’ –do you think these prime locations just come up out of nowhere? Have you even looked into the other investigations associated with Buckham and his ‘Hill real estate dealings’ for a purpose–do some digging first–on the internet.
Exactly how many non profits do you think he was behind and why? What do you think is being investigated at this moment?
It is a tangled web but the noose is getting tighter. What is it you think you know exactly and how would you know it–they allow no one to see who they are working with-but many figured it out –many.
It will all come out in the wash–so we wait. And by the way do you know Lou Sheldon –do some checking first before you go on a rant. Do you know Light On the Hill and understand all the relationships there.
Your emotion is great now back it up with one shred of intelligence and investigation or how about even a fact or two. You have no idea what you are even into and believe me this is no mother talking.
Another one bites the dust of deception.
You forgot the “Im”.
Dear Rae,
It sounds like you may have a personal stake in the NPC. Perhaps ownership is what makes your voice so defenseness. I have to agree with NPC Girl’s information which has been gathered from a collective group, all of which experienced what she mentioned, not the lone voice of ignorance you have illuded to. So, why do YOU care so much?
Hi Rae –so do you have a list of all those who gave – worked – and stayed at the NPC over the years. We easily can come up with a list of 100.
Re-read the condo comment –that was the common term referred to by those
who witnessed what it was like to be a personal guest there. It ‘felt’ like you were staying at someone’s personal residence –not the headquarters of a quote
non-profit organization that we all helped to buy and pay for weekly -monthly.
Of course the record shows that when anyone got too much information they were quickly booted out of D.C. We know.
I don’t remember anyone saying Tom Delay was actually at the NPC. The NPC had no relationship with Tom Delay? Ya, right.
We remember weekly trips to meet with the man.
You can’t pull the wool over our eyes —its all on record out there –
Hate to disappoint you but you thought everyone had a 2nd grade education
and couldn’t put two and two together.
Meant to say defensive. So why ARE you so defensive? Do you OWN the NPC?
As Abraham Lincoln said:
You can fool some of the people some of the time and some of the people
all of the time,
but you cannot fool all the people all of the time.’
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Thus, the indictments!
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I believe the quote is actually:
“You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.”
NBN is correct, but we didn’t personally meet with TD. However, our pastor did fly back to DC frequently to meet with the esteemed leader. We had to pray for him while they met, I guess to assure he would say and pray the right thing. I suppose that infers if we didn’t pray right, he wouldn’t pray right.
RH
I knew I’d be slammed if the quote wasn’t right
looked it up on brainy quotes just to make sure –
its not an easy one to get right.
Either way –no one wants to be made a fool of and thats what we were
for supporting something that wasn’t out in the open in all their dealings-
not that DC is known for that esp. within these confines.
Have you heard they put people in the slammer for not using designated
offerings for what they said they were used for –no matter what your
accountant may have told you –he’s not an attorney;
especially when the amounts get up in the tens of thousands girl. Ck it out.
Hey Rae –if the facts aren’t right here than please set the record straight.
It might be safer here than in the Washington Post.
If there’s nothing to hide than blog away –tell us all –after all you have
unsuspecting church members from all over the country giving money to what they think is the same as giving a tithe –at least it was said that way.
Shouldn’t someone be held accountable. Please enlighten us –where can we see their financial records since its inception. Shouldn’t non profit organizations be open with all the monies given to them especially when it is a national prayer organization
associated with Christians? It’s not too much to ask is it?
Rae Rae? are you there?
Nah, she said her bit and doesn’t want to hear what y’all have to say. long gone.
Prada purses anyone?
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No slam intended. I happen to be a history buff.
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Give her 2-4 hours until she gets home from school. Longer if she has to take the bus.
Sam
If NPC Girl is poor, then she is in good company since the Lord seems to enjoy the company of the poor and resists the proud.
Isaiah 61:1
“The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor.”
Matthew 5:3
“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”
1 Samuel 2:8
“He raises the poor from the dust and lifts the needy from the ash heap; he seats them with princes and has them inherit a throne of honor.”
Thank you RH –knew if I used an historical quote it might speak their
language!
And to Advocate –love those quotes and if you see ‘The Nativity’ movie
you will see visually from alot of research –what humble conditions
Our Lord came from and it totally lines up with these verses.
Isn’t there something also about taking advantage of the poor or widows?
Which is why people get upset when leaders like Buckham who say they are
Christians and working on family values behalf put over $300,000 in an account for his former boss Tom Delay’s wife. We were meeting with these people and had relationship with them. That is why we go off when
bloggers say ‘we don’t know what we were talking about’ –when i sat right
across the table at lunch with the man on our trip there -listening to ‘his plans’
for us.
Its all right — I was just one of many who saw him there and right now
everyone is saying they didn’t know him –There was a great article to that
very effect in the L.A. Times just yesterday –’I never knew the man’–says a former lobbyist with The Dept. of the Interior about Jack Abramoff who outed
this whole web of deceit and money laundering. Again read the papers.
Does that sound biblically familiar? It should –it goes all the way back to Peter when he was being pressured about knowing Jesus. Nothing new
under the sun. At least his story had a great ending!
Somewhere, there is a cock crowing…
“And the walls came a-tumbling down”
Maybe one of the reasons all this whirlwind surrounding Abramhoff and Christians he’s had dealings with is happening is that the Lord may be saying ‘Enough.’ Could it be that the old and corrupt rules will now no longer apply? Is this a judgment happening with people who use His name yet cut deals under the table and so now they are being called on the carpet? I was reading on this blog somewhere earlier where someone said ‘Follow the money trail’ so how far will it trickle down? If it’s a judgment thing, will he leave no stone unturned?
It’s time for Christians to return to Christ’s original intent. I do know that much. As a whole, we waste far too much time posturing and vying for position, establishing ministries and such, when we should be advocating for the poor and sick of the world. It’s far less glamorous for sure. But I get the feeling God won’t be happy till we are doing it and doing it out of love and humility. The sooner we set out do that, the sooner we will feel his power and enablement and blessing to get it done. Then I think his church will feel his full-on smile again and maybe, just maybe the world won’t disrepect us as a group so much.
My soapbox.
Personally, I feel that it is abominable for pastor wendell smith to be spending that much money in D.C. when there are literally people starving in his own State.
For starters, Wendell should send Jonah to charm school. Or at the very least, foot the bill for Miss Manners to tutor the boy.
BTW, why didn’t Wendell send Dougie back to pilot the DC church?
Sam
pastor wendell smith should send Jonah to charm school AFTER he sends him to a good hair stylist and a good tailor.
Good question about why wendell didn’t send doug to D.C.
Prob’ly thought he’d choke a senator or somepin’.
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Only if the Senator was a female.
Don’t you guys get why Washington D.C. is so important to “The City Movement”? Think “President Judah Smith”. Think tithes instead of taxes. Think world domination by a one City government. Duh!
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All that’s needed is a “666″ to complete that vision.
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Thanks for the comment back Catalyst!
I agree that Washington needs more guys like you. And I don’t doubt your passion or reason for believing what you do. What I do question is your approach…see I think you really could be a catalyst but it isn’t going to happen by spending 18 hours a day (so it appears, though i know this is an exaggeration people so no comments, thanks) on this cbc blog. I want you do be a catalyst…just please let it be about something more than a blog.
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NPC Girl (cute name by the way),
Did i hit a nerve?!?
Reading Comprehension is clearly not a strength for you so…..why don’t you re-read your original comment and then mine.
You’re right, you clearly know more about this then I do. All I knew was that “Tom Delay” has never been to the prayer center. you seem to know an awful lot about this situation…worried?
“You have no idea what you are even into and believe me this is no mother talking.
Another one bites the dust of deception.” Sounds a little like a threat mama!
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ha. you’re hilarious. love ya dollface
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oh sammy…you crack me up every time.
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no
Rae sounds a LOT like Cowboy.
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NBN, NPC Girl, and apparently the rest of the blogging world….
“we know” NBN. you crack me up. you guys are way too entertaining.
sorry to disapoint you that i don’t have an inside scoop into all this. my original comments were to simply state that the dc church, the national prayer center, and TD/EB have no connection…where are your facts on this NPC Girl? see, credence requires some validity….validity requires some facts. was that too fast. need me to slow down?
many of you stated….we know, we have the facts. you cbc bloggers should know better then anyone to let the facts speak for themselves. give me a link then. where’s this “information gathered by a collective group?” i’m not defending tb or eb, i just find it amusing that you would like to connect them to anything MFI. which is the commonality in this group…isn’t it? how you all abhor MFI or those associated?
and if i don’t respond quick enough for you sweet hearts…don’t fret, i just have a life and it doens’t involve a blog for most of the day.
and to the rest of you i won’t have time to respond to…thanks for the comments kiddos. i was happy to hit a nerve. anytime.
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that’s the nicest thing i’ve ever heard. i started actually reading this blog after i read something by cowboy. thanks man! you totally made my night.
It is always amusing when one identity stops posting at the same time another similar personality starts posting. The record was held by Holli I think – who created maybe a dozen different personalities in 1 weekend, all agreeing with herself … she vehemently denied she was any of the other personalities, but as quickly as they all came, they all departed … you’d think if they were all legit accounts, a few of them would have stuck around …
Anyhow – how goes it, Cowboy?
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i can’t even be annoyed with you for not believing me. because its seriously the best compliment. my friend read me something by cowboy on a road trip a few weeks ago and since then i’ve been hooked to his comments. thanks bud.
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What are you talking about????
How do I defend myself little guy? You have lost your mind………..I dont need to disguise myself- I enjoy robust discussion!!!!
Tell me how I can prove it!!!!! Good Lord your crazy………..Smoking to much pot there??????? Wow!!!!!!!!!!!
Fair enough. Any suggestions on how I can reach thousands of people every week outside of this blog?
Kido, think before you speak………………………
Uh huh … I guess cowboy had to impress someone
… several of us had HER made for a troll – name calling, condescending, a veritable human lexicon, always promising answers to questions in the next post, and never delivering. I liked her if only for the condescension and lexical prowess.
‘Scrupe
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Haaaaaaaa!!! You need some work on your satire, but your getting there!! I think one day ull make it……….poor little guy!!!!
Oh, and yur “characterization” sounds a lot like you, kido. Oopps!!! With the exception of the “lexical prowess”. You never been a man of the lexicon, have you????? But that’s okay…………..
Again…………think before you speak!!!!! I dont want you to put your foot in yur mouth again. Your “accusation” is unwarranted………………..
However, I would like more “charitable” dialogue; at the same time, I will try to do the same………..But please do not exercise haste in “judgement” and i will do the same…………..
I think it is possible to have unity in diversity in this ongoing conversation…………………….
Is that cool unprincipled, I mean unscrupulous????
Hey cowboy!!!!!!!!! You know what’s better than one exclamation point??????????? THIRTY!!!!!!!!!!
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Haaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!! Do you also like my extension of “haaaaaaaaaaaa”??? It takes talent………!!!!!
OK.
Not off to a good start there, Cowboy.
Do you really want to engage in meaningful dialogue with people you seem to hold in contempt and regularly insult?
Linguists and theologians we’re not, but you’ll look far and wide before you find another group of believers with the courage this group has – to leave an abusive situation, turn their backs on conformity and ‘institution think’, and follow the Lord alone.
Sam
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Well catalyst first lets be honest with ourselves here….thousands…really? I think perhaps a lot of the people who occasionally read this blog are just that/those…occasional readers. The so-called ones that faithfully read or post are likely to be of the same thought process. The more negative the blogs are towards leaders and ministries are merely just feeding like-minded people. You’re not necessarily causing others to follow; you’re just mobilizing the few that already believe what you believe. A true catalyst has a voice to convert. You’re gonna have to figure out what that is. But I can assure you, this isn’t it.
I do enjoy reading your perspective. I’m a firm believer that my argument can only be strengthened by hearing the other side….so for that I thank you.
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Sorry to burst your bubble Scrupe. You’re not the only voice of reason. And in the spirit of good blogging, you should applaud others with differing opinions to join in the action.
What I find truly fascinating about this particular blog spot; is that any pastor, politician, and the starbucks barista who screwed up your drink this morning are all fair game for defamation of character. Yet, when someone gets on this blog who tends to disagree and uses colorful analogies and descriptions….they’re immature, hold contempt for this blog and its bloggers, and regularly insult them (if you don’t mind me partially quoting you Sam). It’s a mystery to me.
You see, I don’t have a problem with people having differing opinions then mine….in fact, I thrive in it. I do, however; struggle to understand why there can be only one authentic voice and it seemingly always points the finger at someone else. My question is to anyone who reads this and/or cares. Is there anyone or anything you do like? I just want to know what sort of things you people do believe in, not just everything you don’t. I’m starting to think you guys all hate Christmas and puppies too. C’mon folks
Thanks for reading.
I agree!!! You have courage and that I do respect!! I also have courage; in fact, I relish in the colloquial “gang beat” that this blog engages in…….
However, is courage the highest virtue??? Is courage an “idea” that we hold at the expense of other virtues??? Is love the highest possible virtue or what about truth???
I like to think that God suffers insufferably from a kind of “holy amnesia”….. What if God had an imperfection? I would like to assume that it would be forgetfulness. Yet, it seems that the Bible weaves this “imperfection” into the very tapestry of His character. The imagery evoked by love challenges “our” assumptions and instincts of self-preservation. Its concept is grounded profoundly by its action: it records no wrong, covers a multitude of sins, and glibly amends faults…….
What then is our hermeneutic??? How do we practice the radical standards govern by such an inconvenient virtue??? Do we really love our neighbor as ourself? Such a propostion does not sit well with me; for it vexes the insatiable instinct for a vengeful act……….Jewish literature, breathes exegetical life to this concept of love, by expounding on the “shema”…..”What is hateful to you, do not to your neighbor”.
Consequently, is our courage nothing more then pride or impalpable hate…….. Love is a dangerous wonder that empowers a simplistic notion; love is implacable, patient, and enduring……..
I agree that many have been profoundly wounded and hurt and marginalized………But love defys that innate desire to “get back”…….Is it possible that the greatest test of the “spiritual life” is loving ones enemy??? If loving ones enemy is rooted inexorably in Gods being; in other words, love is the basis of the christian life, I have yet to see many who practice this kind of life…….You may be right, you may be wrong, you may be bold, you may be ……….. But love is a radically alternative lifestyle
I think courage is to love in this way……………..It takes courage to be silent, to be forgetful, to be humble, and to serve an enemy……………
Rae its obvious you and cowboy are the same person –who do you think your fooling. Your comments are truly odd and any other blog/discussion would run you out on a rail for your wierd rants and off color comments that apparantly make no sense.
So is this why you come up on this one–its the only one with enough mercy not to run you off. You come off unintelligent and odd –usually making no sense.
But you have served your purpose here today –you got us all going and putting out some fantastic information in answer to your ascerbic comments. Thanks for
being our ‘catalyst to add truth’ and incentive to keep on going. We’ll be praying for you to come to your senses and soon.
Even though this discussion of the NPC got way off today –the information on this topic still stands and it is out there to be told.
It confirms just what a dynamite topic this is. More to come.
Hey City Church bloggers –so when did they announce that they had purchased this building for you all –just wondering. And how was it funded? Did anyone ask –from your general fund or was it funded by a person or group?
Also will this be used as a church or as a residence or what?
Do you know where your money is going –just wondering!
Main Entry: cat·a·lyst
Pronunciation: ‘ka-t&-l&st
Function: noun
1 : a substance that enables a chemical reaction to proceed at a usually faster rate or under different conditions (as at a lower temperature) than otherwise possible
2 : an agent that provokes or speeds significant change or action
I think this blog has been a great catalyst for open and meaningful discussion on those things we disagree with in CBC and the IC in general. Many of us here have found others who are “one of us” and for that reason at least I am grateful for this blog. It’s true, we never all agree about everything, but who does? If you don’t think it has any value, then why post here? Personally, I couldn’t think of a better way for people to provoke change in the IC than through a grass-roots method such as this one. You’re certainly not going to see any of this in Charisma magazine.
I feel like you’re baiting us to mock you for you long post, but I won’t. Oh damn, I just did. Sorry.
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Haaaa!!!! Are you trying to be condescending? Hmmmmmm…..Thats so cute!!! Unfortunately, you wouldnt make it in the world of satire!!!JK
Again, what are you talking about? I have no idea who rae is??? I begin to read this thread after I was being accused of blogging under another “identity”……
How can I exonerate myself?
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That was a record, wasnt it………..:) Oh no im becoming longwinded, like…… I better stop!!!
You might be right!!! But is it possible that yur wrong?
Rae/Cowboy says:
Your analysis is seriously flawed. With 400 unique visitors per day and 12 posts per day on average over 2 years, it’s ridiculous to assume that the lurkers ( 97% of our readership ), are “like minded”.
What is the demographic for the lurkers? Some read for amusement. Some, recently joined from CLF in Gray’s Harbor, came to vent, and were assisted by bloggers here concerning MFI policies which were violated habitually in the handling of Pastor Cotton’s disciplinary action.
Some still attend City Bible Church, City Church, Capital Christian, etc. Here they have the opportunity to hear the voice of people who have been abused and wounded by their churches, who through seeking truth have come to see that doctrines preached in those churches are false. Perhaps the testimonies shared here motivate current members to investigate for themsleves and carry the message to their home church, or motivate them to compassion, or give them the courage to leave and hope of finding real relational fellowship outside the 4 walls of in$titutional churchianity.
Your assertion that the pastor(s) of CBC, City, Capital, et al, are mightier men because they reach “thousands” with their weekly “get rich quick” prosperity doctrine, “bring in the tithe”, and other moral message of the week sermons, is short sighted. Do you really think the likes of Frank, Wendell, Judah, et al, are “reaching people” for Christ and seeing souls won by those kinds of numbers, or, are you seeing the very thing that you have accused this blog of: they’re attracting like-minded people – making religious groupies of people who are ALREADY Christians?
If Jesus had been into the “of differing opinions” game and the numbers game, He would NOT have gathered to Himself and taught 12 disciples, He would have set up a booth in the temple and taken on the scribes and pharisees directly. Such would defy a basic truth: no pupil is greater than his teacher. Such would be the case IF the Master were required to debate those of “differing opinion”, for they are without respect (John 4:44) for the voice of prophecy (Spirit of Truth), witihout respect for true elders in the Lord. People do NOT gather in disagreement, they gather in unity. What you suggest by numbers and differing opinions is not the way of the Lord.
From that 1:12 relationship between the Lord and His disciples, as each in turn went about the slow work of plowing, planting, nurturing the mission fields to which they were sent, a world was changed over time.
Would you answer a question honestly for us? Assuming you are a church goer, sitting among thousands every Sunday morning, are you really “reached for Jesus” after hearing your pastor preach yet another message on the tithe, or on how God answers prayer? Or are you honest about it all, or do you leave thinking “where’s the beef”?
Hebrews 5:12-14 GW By now you should be teachers. Instead, you still need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word. You need milk, not solid food. (13) All those who live on milk lack the experience to talk about what is right. They are still babies. (14) However, solid food is for mature people, whose minds are trained by practice to know the difference between good and evil.
The ONLY thing Frank, Wendell, Judah, et al, reach consistently on Sunday mornings, is people’s wallets.
Sam
You can say that again.
By the way, the way I handle people who are obviously baiting me by their incindiary posts is to simply ignore them. It’s the only way to make people who enjoy strife go away.
Sam,
First of all….if you did a little critical reading you would see that Cowboy and i are not the same person. i wish i had his ability to articulate but sadly i don’t. however, i understand your paranoia….there is a little gal who likes to write from her 4 or more aliases and consistently responds to herself. the problem is she doesn’t do a very good job of masking her lingo or style of writing….its always the same. espionage isn’t her forte. your accusation thus may have been admissible but is sadly not warranted. i once again assure you….i have only one identity and its Rae. so can we drop it already?!
Secondly, i appreciate the stats and believe you gave a fairly good argument. on the other hand…I found a few holes. I hope you don’t mind if I flesh it out a bit?
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so apparently you believe in an absolute truth….and it appears to be yours. c’mon Sam, don’t use sweeping generalizations about TRUTH. i do not doubt that there are people you have been profoundly hurt in one or all of these churches you mention. find me a church/pastor/human-being who hasn’t hurt someone or rocked their faith somehow…and i’ll glady call you a liar. i’ve been “hurt”….”offended”….numerous times within the confounds of the church. in fact, i doubt anyone of you blogges can hold a candle to the insufferable words i have endured. yet it hasn’t rocked my faith so that i use my words (aka MY BLOG) to destroy THE CHURCH. so stop whining. we’ve all experienced degrees of pain. give me break….want to quote scripture friend….let’s quote scripture.
I Cor. 2:14-16 “But people who aren’t spiritual can’t receive these truths from God’s Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can’t understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means. Those who are spiritual can evaluate all things, but they themselves cannot be evaluated by others. For who can know the Lord’s thoughts? who knows enough to teach him?”
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so the fundamental issues for you are tithing and unanswered prayers? yes, honestly i leave my church of “thousands” each week feeling not only have I reached Christ but so have so many others who unlike you Sammy…never had a hope….have lived a life of torment and loneliness….and are desperate. if you’re issue is tithing, then let it be YOUR issue. if you seriously try to debate its unbiblical, i’m sorry my boy you’ll be sadly mistaken. if God hasn’t answered some prayers of yours Sam….its not Frank, Judah, Wendell…or anyone else’s….fault.
so now you answer me this. you’re trying to tell me that what you lacked while attending one of these churches (i assume you attended one of these churches for a duration…otherwise this discussion is over) you now, in totality, experience on a daily basis on this blog (your church, i assume) or perhaps a new church you attend? You never ask your question…”where’s the beef?” you feel “reached for Jesus” everyday you post a comment for your little grass roots campaign?
My apologies if this is too long…..
I thought rae was leaving us… what’s with the windy posting AGAIN???? Maybe if we ignore her and cowboy they will go away?
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oh LL….if the things i write are too challenging just say that. no need to wish me away….that only makes me want to stick around more.
i do however need some help in figuring out how to post just a portion of a quote. haven’t perfected that yet. can you help?
Doesn’t Rae also have another identity… remember “Tiffani” or “Tiffany” (wasn’t worth going back to check spelling) a few posts back?
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Sounds like a plan…
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or maybe i’ll single-handedly shut the blog down. ooooohhhhhhhaaaaaa!!!!!!
can we play copycat and broken record too?!?!
Thanks Rae. Use your mouse to copy the text you want, click the b-quote, paste your copied text in, push the b-quote again. done. You’re my hero.
So, how does pastor wendell smith justify spending over a million dollars of his congregations funds on a church that is 3,000 miles away?
Did pastor wendell smith think there were no more problems in Washington State? No hunger? No poverty? No need?
many thanks WTFWJD! not another blogging faux pas for me…thanks to you.
Just imagine what a $1,300,000 contribution to “The Lord’s Pantry” would have meant to the starving people in the Grays Harbor area.
Rae,
In my opinion you sound much more articulate than Cowboy.
So, when you say thousands, is it 1700 including the children, or is it 3000, 5000, 10,000? Just curious. And is the fact that ‘thousands’ go to your church helping you feel more validated as a Christian? By your statement, it almost seems like you would think small churches are just about as bad as the ‘poor’ people you mentioned in your former post to NPC Girl when you said she must be poor because she’s never seen a real East Coast Condo.
Seems to me that the blog administrators would have an accurate assessment of their blog stats.
I go to Seattle once in a while. There are homeless people living on the streets there, they are visible to anyone who looks for them. I wonder how much housing for the homeless could have been built on the “Campus” of city bible church if pastor wendell smith had decided to build in his own community, instead of 3,000 miles away?
Sam,
What did you think about courage? Am I wrong? ……………And for the record I have no idea who rae is???
And for the other bloggers who suggest to “censure” me for my sarcasm, let me remind you that sarcasm is the “fuel” of this blog. For your sake, do not succomb to this mild form of hyprocrisy, it will be the undoing of the”spirit” of its conversation………..You do not want to be like the people that you scathe against that prohibit ‘”free” conversation and expression……
What I enjoy profoundly about this site is that anyone is “free” to say and to speak and to express……….And that I believe is a fundamental characteristic of love……..I might be wrong, you might be wrong, we all might be wrong, but “our” being human requires that we value its highest virtue which is freedom……
Would you agree, reformed pope?
As far as that goes, I wonder how many nice haircuts and proper clothes $1,300,000 would buy for Jonah?
Rae –no one is ever cut off for their sarcasm–its your style of attacking people
hence almost all your blogs. You don’t explain ideas well and it is a constant
bore to try to read through your diatribe. Just being honest–because you’ve repeatedly said you like that. — but I won’t respond to your comments any more because they scream –”I just want attention” and that takes away from the real purpose of this blog when you aren’t taking up space we actually get some things accomplished here–like healing for those who have been hurt. NO ONE on this blog with a true heart needs your abuse anymore.
Hope you find somewhere else to play.
I wonder how they managed to spend $1,300,000 with the bills from Judah having his hair bleached?
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Who are you talking to???? That was confusing!!!
Oops, “Jonah” = “Judah”.
My bad.
Cowboy,
Maybe you and Rae ARE one and the same after all? She specified ‘Rae’ at the beginning of her post.
Uhhhhhhhh! What is yur point there inspector gadget. I specified “Rae” because that is the monicker that this “person” blogs under………..
Are you ok?
I have to wonder if the “accusations” really are a red herring……..why are you people so obsessed with “double” identies? Could it be that you all are crooked bloggers using a different alias!? And so…… is it impossible to believe that a “honest guy” doesnt need 2 or 5 identies to reinforce a point…………?
Advocate, is your name a play of words, that reflects a need that you feel to “assist” another identity… such as yourself!!!! After thinking about it I think you are someone else…….You probably got frustrated with my comments because they violated your ego and so you are blogging under a different identity…….I understand!!! That is so cute……
I got a revelation, I bet that Im one of the few on this blog that has one identity………
The bible says it’s Gods money. In my opinion you are not responsible for it once it is given. God will bless you for giving. If the pastor miss uses it, God will deal with him.
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Well, if you are not responsible for it AFTER it’s given, doesn’t that make you responsible for it BEFORE it’s given?
In other words, are we to cast our pearls before swine?
PTL!!!!
well thanks for taking all that time to explain to me that you don’t want to comment to me anymore. i don’t make sense? i have no idea what you said but thankfully i’ll never have to read your comments again now.
i’ll miss ya.
I wonder how many of those snazzy shirts Judah is wearing in the video could have been bought with that $1,400,000?
Or how many blankets to keep the poor warm could that money have bought?
To Matt – -your comment was dejavu for almost everyone here. We’ve heard it so many times before –wonder where we all learned that line of reasoning?
I used to think that way too till I got out of the cult-like thinking into a caring church. When I woke up I was grieved to realize I am a steward of money
here on earth –I am totally responsible for where it goes–who I give it to –especially in the church. Do you remember the money changers outside of the temple. Why didn’t Jesus just say ‘come and give your money to them –no matter what they’re doing with it –you have no responsibiltiy once it leaves your hands.
It’s that line of reasoning that has led to this problem of church’s having absolutely no accountability to the congregations. Isn’t that also good stewardship? Remember the parable where 3 people were given money to use–some invested it and some buried it in the ground out of fear. Was the Lord happy with that line of reasoning then? Why would He be now.
Sometimes I think we check our brains in at the door thinking we will have no accountability –that blind trust will be rewarded.
All giving involves some form of trust but it is your responsibility to ask questions as to where and how the money is being spent. People are watching you –so if you blindly trust believe me they will too if you are any type of leader in the church. Watch out for blind Pharisees. Anyone leading an organization should be very open and above board in dealing with financial matters. Maybe its time the church led the way in showing groups how it can be done with integrity.
Man I’m so glad I got this out there -believe me Matt is was all learned the hard way after I got of a church we refer to very often here. Remember the accountability factor and the Lord is your Father who will ask you what you did with it –even if you were trusting someone else.
Actually, I chose the word Advocate because I would like to become more involved in assisting the ‘poor’ or those not currently in a place to help themselves, which is one of the reasons I started reading this blog yesterday…because the people here seem to understand that the money thing in these churches is way out of line. With that said, I guess I do take up the causes of those around me, including NPC Girl whom I happen to know personally, who told me about this blog in the first place. I didn’t even know what the ruckus about Cowboy was all about, but now I am beginning to see. I suppose it makes for a lively blog to get everyone’s hackles up, but it seems to derail the purpose a bit. At least Reforming Heathen keeps bringing it back to the original subject which is City Church bought a Row house in DC for for 1.4 million dollars.
I still can’t believe your friend Rae accused NPC Girl of being ‘poor’ like it’s a real disgusting thing or something. I’m not a rich person nor a person without my needs met, so it’s not that I’m defensive. It’s just that whole superior attitude about less fortunate people shouldn’t even exist in the ‘Church’.
Moving on, good idea about multiple identities though. I’ll have to come up with another and see if you can guess who it is.
Reforming Heathen keeps the main thing the main thing.
1.4 million –we will keep asking about it till someone gets it together
and answers the questions
Prosperity with Integrity–so where are you now? If not here than
there’s always the Seattle P.I.
My church experience is with smallish congregations by CBC/City/Capital standards. The purchase of ANY property, or go ahead with any building plans ALWAYS required a 2/3rds majority of the congregation by vote. Every vote was held in an official membership meeting, where minutes were taken.
DID the City Church congregation VOTE to spend $1.4M on a building/lot in DC?
What was the BUSINESS case that was presented to the Kirkland, WA congregation for buying a church building in DC?
Are City Churches’ membership meeting minutes available for public (member) inspection?
Ha! knowing how things operated in our church here –that would be
a beautiful dream–actually sharing any information with the crowd–what a thought! We were lucky to hear about it after the fact and then most of the people on staff only heard about it when it was announced and were in a snit for two weeks after the fact.
Hmmmmmmmm…..Interesting point!!! If Jesus was so “subversive”, which I believe He was, why is it that He paid the “temple tax”??? If your point of logic rests in “casting pearls before swine”, it implodes under the weight of the action of Jesus!!!!(matt 17) I think we all would agree that the swine metaphor fits the religious description of the pharisees……..so if that is true, is Jesus guilty of “irresponsible” stewardship???
Or what about the widow in Luke 21??? What vexes me is that Jesus says nothing about the “corruption” of the religious system……no metaphor,allusion, or parable!!! He is silent…………….He even goes to the extent of condoning the offering of the widow…..Has Jesus become terribly inconsiderate of the proverb!?! NO!!
But if we were to take the aphorism,casting pearl before swine, to its logical end: Jesus would be the greatest offender!!!
So please stop generalizing the words of G-d; Jesus is much more complex; morever, any commentary must be fused with a Biblical “tension” ……..
still can’t believe your friend Rae accused NPC Girl of being ‘poor’ like it’s a real disgusting thing or something. I’m not a rich person nor a person without my needs met, so it’s not that I’m defensive. It’s just that whole superior attitude about less fortunate people shouldn’t even exist in the ‘Church’.
To Rae and Cowboy-
Here is my opinion on this:
A man thinks that by mouthing hard words he understands hard things. However, he only comes out looking like an idiot, so…
It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
FYI: I won’t take my religion from anyone who never proves anything except they have a big mouth. I think that feeling like you have to prove your point is the one thing that makes your mouth work faster than your mind.
To the rest of you, there will always be a time when loud-mouthed, incompetent people seem to be getting the best of you. When that happens, you only have to be patient and wait for them to self destruct. It never fails.
Rae, you and Cowboy are giving the rest of us a headache.
Prove your point or bug off.
You are giving me a headache…
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Sure thing pal. I thought that’s what this blog is all about. Oh yeah, that’s right…its about lifting up our shirts and showing our battle wounds. Bait.bait.bait…yummy! Hooked! Sorry, I just had a distracting fish moment.
Anyway, back to the more important stuff:
That caring church FTC is speaking of seems to discuss money only when it comes to missions. The point to this blog topic is city church spends more money on themselves than the suffering among them or at least in their vicinity.
Here’s an example of the exact opposite, if anyone’s interested. Click on to this link of an interview about how this particular pastor and church got started in reaching out to India, specifically to the slums in India where there is no other church presence, (the first one obviously tells the beginnings etc). (It’s not as boring as the stereotypical missions stuff–Bob’s actually pretty cool to listen to–he’s just a reformed drug-dealer, ex-hippy guy who’s never let the christian culture depersonalize him).
For a large church (the largest one in Boise for those who think that size matters so much) , it really has a nonassuming and getting-it-done step-by-step outlook toward Christian living and what money is meant to generate in the Kingdom of God. If it weren’t for this church, I’d share the view of some on this blog that the IC is totally obsolete now, but I currently have hope that the Church CAN function properly if its primary focus is beyond itself and in accordance to the laws of the land when it comes to the money thing.
Here goes on the link thing which I’m not very good at (would love a how to bcz when I click link above and paste it in, it doesn’t show up in comment preview)
Interview with Bob: http://www.ccboise.org/live/boise/pages/page.asp?SID=4&PageID=45
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Wow!
$1.3 million could have purchased 20-30 units of transitional housing for families going from homelessness to self-sufficiency, and could have been used over and over and over.
These families would go from needing food banks to supporting food banks.
I’m involved in an organization that is currently pursuiing funding for such a project in Grays Harbor.
Anyone got an extra $million$ available?
Dan Wood
See what I mean, the link thing is the archaic way and I’d like to do it the spiffy Cbc Blog way! oh well. next time i guess.
Because of the comments on financial responsibility mentioned earlier, I’m also including the link to the easy-to-read page provided on the same church’s website called Missions and Money, and the page to Guidelines for Tax-Deductible Giving to Missions if anyone is really interested.
Say what you will about the IC being completely screwed up in general, this church has figured out how to do it practically and honestly. If you are lucky enough to live near a church that’s got it together, fine, and if none exists near you, fine. I’m just saying it CAN be done and wouldn’t it be great if the Church at large could have all their ducks in a row financially and actually get the work of the true Gospel done according to scripture?
Our Financial Responsibility
http://www.ccboise.org/live/boise/pages/page.asp?SID=4&PageID=894
Guidelines for Tax-Deductible Giving
http://www.ccboise.org/live/boise/pages/page.asp?SID=4&PageID=423
Cowboy, I disagree that Jesus condoned the behavior of rich people when pointing out the widow’s gift. Christians often spin this story to make the idea of personal sacrifice sound very noble, so that when they give to the IC they can feel good about themselves. I think that Jesus was condemning them for their behavior. The fact that the only thing the widow had to give was two small coins was a bad mark on their record for taking care of the widows and the poor. If the community had been taking care of the poor, there would have been no need for her small gift to be everything that she had. He was scolding them for this. Jesus reinforced this idea with the parable of the sheep and the goats. Those who were let into His kingdom were not the ones who tithed well, they were the ones who took care of the poor.
The City Church’s efforts in spending all this money reminded me of this passage:
[Comment ID #16809 Will Be Quoted Here]
I’ve never read that verse that says it’s God’s money once you give it. Can you show me where that is?
What verse in the Bible says that the pastor is the unquestioned king of the church and God’s anointed and they deserve your unswerving loyalty and financial support? If said pastor is misusing the money you give him and you continue to support him, will not God judge you for being complicit in his sin?
Absolutely! So I will continue to give to whatever my church is doing until God tells me otherwise, rather than speculations from humans who have a tendency to make mistakes.
This scripture is not refering to money. If it did, wouldn’t that mean not helping certain poor people?
No, You shouldn’t waste Gods money. Pray before you give it. I believe the reason people give to the wrong ministries, those that turn out to be corrupt, is because they themselves are not in the word daily and praying daily. If I had a peace about giving to a ministry that later turned out to be corrupt I wouldn’t sweat it, because I know MY God is gracious and rewards those who diligently seek him.
CBC Blog,
Would you consider adding a little ‘how to function’ page for new bloggers? Rae keeps getting the comment quote backwards and Toxic said he/she wasn’t sure how the link tab works. And I have no idea what str, em, code, and close tags do.
I’ll look into it. But I have to be honest, the only person with less computery savvy than yourself, is me. I’m a computer moron. Nevertheless, I’ll see if I can add a short “how to” list.
Rae,
If the church is doing everything but helping the poor doesn’t that indicate a lack of true love and thus all the other stuff is a ‘sounding gong’ in the ears of God which would give us a clue that he’s not impressed with all of our spirituality and long-windedness, especially in preaching and prayer?
Sorry to go off on you about you calling NPC Girl poor. It just hit a nerve. I know people who really think that they are superior and more highly called than others, so I automatically summed you up as one of those types.
You miss understand me it’s his money all the time.
Sorry I missed the part where I said you should give to a pastor KNOWING he is miss using money. I don’t believe he is and until I do I will continue to give to the church. Of course if he was miss using it that would mean the entire board was miss using it with him. If this is the case God WILL bring it to light.
The recent pastor who had a secret life of sin is proof of that.
[Comment ID #17056 Will Be Quoted Here]
I’m sorry if I’m being combative, but your comment struck a nerve with me. Too often that kind of reasoning was used against me to convince me to tithe as if I had no say in the matter. If you want to carry that logic to its extreme, “The Earth is the Lord’s and everything in it.” That still doesn’t absolve me from being a good steward of what God has given me, and that includes who I give my money to, including churches. I understand your point about God being gracious about giving to Him. But there’s no excuse for giving money to people who show that they are either untrustworthy or have an ungodly agenda – including your own pastor.
I’m still amazed that the members (and some leaders?) of the City Church were told after the fact and were not involved with the decision making of the purchase. That kind of underhandedness deserves to be pointed out.
Matt wrote:
The following is from one of my articles on the Tithe Lie:
Why is it that the story about the servant who hid the money versus the servant who INVESTED the money comes to mind?
I dunno, it just seems VERY FUNNY TO ME that pastor wendell smith would choose to spend $1,400,000 of his congregation’s money to buy a building 3,000 miles from that congregation.
There is no benefit to his congregation by his actions, and it seems to me that in doing so, pastor wendell smith is overlooking the opportunity to make the area immediately surrounding his church a better place for the poor and hungry.
I guess the question that I would ask would be this:
“With all the problems in Washington State that are unresolved, problems that COULD HAVE BEEN be improved greatly by that $1,400,000, why did you choose to send that money 3,000 miles away?”
I would sure like to hear the response to that question.
Clean up your own back year before you try to clean up someone’s back yard that is 3,000 miles away. Remove the log that is in your eye, etc.
[Comment ID #16809 Will Be Quoted Here]
Apparently I was mass miss understood here. I’m not saying give blindly. I’m saying don’t feel guilty if you were duped into believing a farce as a ministry.
What I was thinking didn’t quite come out right. My apologies.
[Comment ID #17050 Will Be Quoted Here]
Thanks Catalyst
I just figured you all knew EVERYthing about it. Well then, I guess we can all learn together!
[Comment ID #17053 Will Be Quoted Here]
point well taken and apology accepted. i understand what you’re trying to say. but i think we need to be careful with certain stereotypes…for instance, the “church is doing EVERYTHING but helping the poorâ€. my church does have ministries specified for those in need as do almost every church i know. yet, are they the only suffering demographic? not even. church money has to be allotted to many areas and just like we wouldn’t want ALL our tax money going to one specific area (that’s senseless) we shouldn’t want our tithe to either.
not withstanding….i’m sure every church could do more to help the poor. not sure if you’ve run into this but i’ve also noticed that certain churches have a better ability to reach certain demographics. thus, there are churches which are just fit for reaching a specific type of person. makes me sense to me….that way we can actually influence more people. and isn’t that the whole point?
Thanks for the dialogue.
I have to agree with you there. Won’t it be great when we all get the infighting out of our system so to speak so we can actually let each other just be who we are to be. I’m speaking of the collective we. We’ll all be so busy we won’t have time to blog!
Hopefully we are on the way.
Thank you Rae. I do believe we have made a truce
I think your point is valid but, human nature being what it is, it also may be too easy to let the poor be taken care of by those who have strength in that specific area, when the Lord said the poor we would always have with us and the true work of the Gospel is to feed the poor and help the widow. So, like the Great Commission, the Lord seems to be speaking to all of us no matter what our demographic or level of ability is. Perhaps we can learn from those who do it well and stick with what works, yet put our own creative stamp on it too. Then, like you say, “that way we can actually influence more people. and isn’t that the whole point?”
Do you think it’s really possible, human nature being what it is?
ya, that is why i see this blog as too critical. we won’t ever agree 100%….but i’m sure we would agree that NO church is perfect, no pastor, no leader, and surely neither are you and i. we’re flawed humans and God somehow still amuses us by pouring out His love and grace upon us when we LEAST deserve it.
if people have had bad experiences from a church or leader….just learn from it. maybe God has a bigger lesson in it all for us. maybe He used it to get us to where we need to be. i highly doubt God shines down with pleasure seeing His church mocked. this is how i see many of the posts on this blog. i find no personal pleasure trying to discourage someone else from going to one of these great churches.
Good luck trying to find one church for everyone….thank GOD…because i’m pretty sure some of us would have a really hard time getting along.
plus, shouldn’t the ultimate goal be getting the universal church ready for the return of Christ. no matter your eschatology….we all know that the universal church is more then one church. subsequently….my epiphany for the day is….why don’t we find the things we do agree on and forget about the things we don’t?!?!?
sorry for the winded comment TCR…you just got me to thinking out-loud
ya, i guess this will always be a moral dilemma…but one in which i’m willing to believe in.
I do not believe that we should use this type of thinking to allow wrong teachings in a church… at the same time, we also shouldn’t use it to ignore the good things each church does.
Rae, I wish it was just one or two minor issues, or a handful of people who were offended by leadership of CBC. But if you read here regularly, you will notice that there are literally dozens of testimonies of poor leadership, spiritual abuse, and a culture of performance & elitism, some things that are just plain silly, and some things that are begging to be labeled as cultism. Many of these testimonies come from people who were on the inside including elders, teachers, staff members and lay ministers. This blog has become a haven for those to connect with those who have similar hurts and disagreements with CBC leaders, as well as a platform to protest against their abuses of God’s people. I refuse to be marginalized by accusations of bitterness or immaturity. The more that people like yourself object, the more encouraged I become to share my own experiences and opinions because it just shows that the people of CBC are hearing it.
You may not think that our moments of satire are not funny or appropriate, but even God used satire to point out of the sins of his people. In Ezekiel 4 God demanded that the prophet bake his food over human excrement for 390 days to demonstrate how He felt about their sins, and in the end He compromised and allowed Ezekiel to use cow poop instead. In Hosea God likened the people of Israel as an adulterous whore, and numerous times he depicts them as a stubborn donkey. Jesus described us as sheep – one of the stupidest animals on the planet. God is not without a sense of humor when he’s trying to make a point. We may not be prophets but we can document the absurdity and have fun doing it.
Here Here!
Rae:
When I said “Won’t it be great when we all get the infighting out of our system…” I wasn’t really thinking of this blog. I was thinking the American church as a whole. (American because I can’t really view the condition of the non American churches. )
When you say “that’s why I think this blog is too critical”. I don’t really see it that way. Because this is a blog, anything said is basically “thinking outloud”. Much of what’s said can come across as critical, but it’s actually people’s stories and observations of the ‘bad experiences’ and sharing such things can serve as extrication of any deception the enemy has sown in the heart due to the former bad treatment. Like a purging of sorts. Part of healing is processing what’s been done (that’s why it’s called a healing process), getting it out in the open in a non-threatening forum and finding out that there are others like you. In sharing the stories, a lot of emotion can be present, thus the somewhat caustic comments and over the top statements etc. But just because they are loaded with emotion doesn’t mean that what’s said isn’t true. People need an open forum, especially if they’ve been lead to believe that speaking out is rebellious and non Christian. (If that’s the case, why is our ‘religion’ different than oppressive ones and why don’t Christians have the same freedom’s as other American’s? It’s a rhetorical question, no answer needed).
It’s easy for those who aren’t currently processing anything in their past to say ‘just learn from it’ or get over it. It’s not that simple, though; even if it is what’s needed, it takes time. Personally, I feel much freer now than I did when I first started blogging here.
I do agree that we need to learn from the past and that God uses it to get you from point A to B. However, it doesn’t excuse the dysfunction of former world even if former world has been forgiven. Saying just get over it or hurry up and forgive, would be like me saying to these churches to hurry up and change the things they do that hurt the people they hurt. Even though I believe change is needed, it’s going to take time to learn from their vast mistakes and shore up the bad treatment of people. Maybe in some round about way, that is why this blog is ‘allowed’ to be here–maybe the Lord can’t get through to these churches that some of their ways are hurting too many people and if that’s the case He could be using a very imperfect voice to say something He’s been saying all along: the way we treat people really matters to Him. The blog wouldn’t even be here if people had been treated respectfully and so many boundaries hadn’t been crossed.
That was beautifully stated –way to go TCR!
TCR,
So if what you’re saying is true…after a person vents all their frustrations, and discuss the countless ways certain people have disrespected them and crossed boundaries…where does one go from there? What’s the next step in the recovery process?
Dustwarrior,
I’m not saying a person has to exhaust ALL their frustrations on the blog, I’m saying it’s great to have a place to identify with others and tell your story if you need to. Some people don’t need to. They just like to keep it light and funny, which thankfully balances out the heavy stuff. Then there are those who seem to get off on antagonizing other bloggers or generally try to disrail the blog, in my opinion. It occurs to me that those types may have a REASON for doing that. Which is worse, purging past bad experiences openly or purposely creating confusion to be annoying (i.e. if the blog can’t be shut up or shut down, then let’s make them miserable?) ?
Anyway, when I first blogged here I said alot more about my misgivings with a certain church organization, especially when I discovered that the problems we encountered here were happening in other mfi churches. It was a revelation and actually helped me understand some why my former church does what it does. Sharing the stories helped.
So, to answer your question, I guess the next step is getting back to real life, moving on a bit and coming back to comment here and there in a more positive way. And hopefully the next steps beyond that involve spending the rest of your life doing what it is God’s called you to do, underhindered by the past or present.
Dustwarrior,
Stories heal and reveal. Injustice can’t remain covered.
Another story for DW
So then, with a million people without power in the Northwest, do you think that $1,400,000 would have helped in this area for emergency relief?
Dozens of people who could have been warm tonight are freezing because that money was spent 3,000 miles away instead of being spent at home to help the poor.
I don’t think the distance from Kirkland is the thing.
After all, CLF has spent money on mission programs in India, Africa, Bulgaria, Haiti, China, Mexico, etc.
What raises my eyebrow is the seeming political implications and connections of the purchase of the row house.
After all, the City Church already is involved in a church/prayer house in D.C.
Right across from the Canon building is where you would expect to have people conducting political activities that would be illegal across the street at official government offices.
What is the church doing with an arrangement like that?
This has IRS investigation/Washington Post expose’ written all over it.
Stand clear from the falling dominos…………………..
Dan Wood
Excellent question.
Right up there with asking why CLF is going out of Grays Harbor when the local need is tremendous.
[Comment ID #17726 Will Be Quoted Here]
Let’s think this one through, for a moment.
If all local churches only focused on local needs, then what happens to the areas where the need is greater than the local resources?
In India, Africa, Bulgaria, Haiti, etc, they don’t have the financial resources to meet the needs. Simultaneously, this is also true for the Union Gospel Mission, etc.
I think it is important to meet local needs and meet distant needs.
The American church errs, in my opinion, by focusing too much on buildings and not enough on meeting the needs of the poor, hungry, and otherwise hurting.
CLF was, until recently, focused on building another building, rather than getting the greatest use out of the building that is merely 15 years old.
Instead of just 2 services on Sunday, we could add Sunday evening, Saturday evening, and Friday evening without disrupting any other schedules.
That’s a 150% increase in capacity without laying a single brick.
Instead of building a new church for ~$1.2 million, we could ask people to financially support other minitries (at our local church and elsewhere) with their giving. And we would not be saddled with a mortgage.
What a concept!
So, back to D.C. : For me, it’s not that City Church has crossed some imaginary boundary (for God so loved the world…), but that the money is being spent on an expensive building, and that there appears to be some political connection and motivation.
As someone who works in the political field and has been to D.C. for business more than a few times, I don’t see the ministry opportunity being pure in this deal.
Looks like politics to me……………………
Dan Wood
Do you mean to imply that I haven’t thought it through?
They either do without or someone has to supply the need, same as Grays Harbor.
But the need would be less locally if funding was directed to the local need, wouldn’t it?
I disagree. I believe that the local need should be met before any other. To me, it’s the story about the mite in your brother’s eye. Before CLF, or any church, goes to other parts of the world to clean it up, I believe that CLF, and any other church, should clean up their OWN world. With the degree of need in Washington state, I find it abhorrant that ANY church located there would even consider spending their “Time, talent and treasure” elsewhere.
I agree.
Have you ever heard that the reason large buildings exist is to inflate the ego of the builder? Donald Trump immediately comes to mind.
That’s true, or more services could be added for Sunday. Many large churches have 4 or more Sunday services.
Correct.
Or CLF could build those trasitional housing units you were talking about. In that way CLF could effectively transform the community, instead of sending money to a far-away place.
Yes, think it will ever happen?
Of course there is a political motivation. Power is an intoxicant, and it’s patently obvious that pastor wendell smith lusts after power, prestige and status. As far as the thought that pastor wendell smith is crossing over some imaginary boundery, a skeptic could state that all church imposed bounderies are imaginary. For me, the question goes to the intentions behind the act. I suspect that the intentions behind this act are impure, and you seem to feel the same way.
RH, I’m not suggesting that you haven’t thought through your position; that’s just the way I speak sometimes.
My point is that there are needs across the entire world, and if all U.S. churches only met needs in their “local” communities, then we (with the greatest financial resources) would not be sharing with those around the world who have less financial resources.
The result of that would be, in part, a discussion of the selfishness of the churches in the U.S. (more so than now, I mean)
Friends tell me that you (Reforming Heathen) are involved in church leadership (staff, elder, elder wife).
Is this correct?
I must say that one of my disappointments on this board is that people are unwilling to own up to their real identity.
And, in reading your posts, I don’t see anything that you have shared that you should not be willing to be identified with.
Putting a real name with comments accomplished a couple of things:
1) It says that one believes enough in what he/she says to own the comments.
2) It serves as a governor against comments that might be inappropriate.
In any case, I am glad that I am not the only one at CLF who thinks the recent drive to a new building was misdirected.
Unfortunately, the finances of our local church remain somewhat opaque, except for periodic anouncements about finances being down and staff being laid off.
I haven’t any idea how much is being spent on The Lord’s Pantry, the Union Gospel Mission, case-by-case needs, etc.
I don’t know how much re-evaluation of financial priorities is occurring in the midst of our leadership crisis.
Dan Wood
I see.
That’s true. I still believe that a person should remove the beam that is in their own eye (Local need) before removing the mite in their brother’s eye. (attempting to change the world thousands of miles away.)
How many hungry and homeless people are in Grays Harbor?
The answer: A lot.
Perhaps. If I am involved in charity towards another person though, I reserve the right to determine the beneficiary of my actions. I simply do not allow other people’s opinions to influence my course of action.
Really? You talked over who I might be with your friends? I choose to remain anonymous.
Yes, anonymity is a double-edged sword. You may get the honesty that some people feel is possible in this format, but you might also get someone who is spreading misinformation. It’s the nature of this particular beast.
I see.
Some people are ardant supporters of a position that is diametrically opposed to my own, and I prefer to have a lower level of conflict in my life. I accomplish that through anonymity.
So since most users here do not use their real names, are you saying that they do not believe in their comments?
Speaking only for me, I assure you that I mean everything I type, regardless of any identifier that I might choose to use. (NOTE: I only use this name to post under.)
In my life, IO have seen many posts made by people under their own name that were inappropriate.
Other than a fear of possible repercussion, legal or otherwise, what would cause a person to be more responsible in posting underneath their own name vs. an assumed name?
I believe that posting honestly is an intrinsic aspect of the poster, not something that will be affected in any way by them posting under their own name. Character is what a person does in the dark, when they think nobody else is watching.
Perhaps asking for a higher level of transparency would be a good thing then?
I agree.
In my personal opinion, the balance sheets for the church should always be an open book, because an honest man does not fear people looking at his books, don’t you agree?
Hi Dan,
I suspect revealing identities would be an invitation for persecution for many persons here. For some reason, I’m reminded of Jesus words that he played a jig but people wouldn’t dance, played a dirge and they wouldn’t mourn – which says to me that people are just plain contrary to spirit and truth. So, the churches and people who posters here have written about dismiss their comments because they’re made anonymously, and as soon as their ID is disclosed, then the their comments are discounted because it’s someone they know and are familiar with. The latter just opens the door for more abuse. There’s also the story about Lazarus and the rich man … let me go tell my brothers that it’s doggone hot here … Jesus said they had the prophets and didn’t listen, so why would they listen to the rich man come back from the dead? That seems to differentiate between message and messenger. Truth is truth regardless of messenger.
One of the other things has to do with the whole “casting pearls before swine” thing – not that I’m saying you or any other reader is “swine”, but rather that we are cautioned to be wise / selective in who we share with. Even that admonition in 1 Peter (?) that we are to be prepared to give an accounting for the hope that lies within us (our ‘testimony’) when we are asked. Having been brought up with the “find a way to share your testimony” (ram it down their throats) method of evangelizing, I never considered the words “when you are asked”. But it makes sense – the order of witnessing – a person sees observes you, recognizes that you have something special, and asks you about it, whereby the door is opened for you to give your testimony to someone who wants to hear it.
Sharing on a board like this, there may be a couple dozen regular posters, and several hundred lurkers … a level of trust is established among the regulars, but what about the lurkers? Wasn’t too long ago that JP and Justin (RP and Cat) were threatened with legal action over the blog logo … so clearly there were readers of the blog who had hostile motive.
What we share today also becomes a permanent record on the blog – what might be safe to share today, could be turned around by someone who reads it a year from now – this isn’t like private face to face sharing – it’s public and permanent. Every once in awhile, some religious nellie digs up an old thread, like Judah Smith and his miracle mojo, and pitches a fit over it. God forbid that one of them might be a real wack job and start harrassing someone who used their real identity on the blog. I’ve never gotten any hate mail over this blog, but have over my web site articles – especially the tithe oriented articles. Do you know that I’m “single handedly destroying the holy church of God by your tithe articles?”
I can see the reservations people have about revealing identities. That doesn’t affect how I feel about what is shared here. People are just once bitten twice shy I guess.
Jack
And I clearly remember that Doug Cotton is alleged to have threatened the elders at CLF with a lawsuit for “Defamation of character”.
RH, you make some good points on just about everything in your previous post.
The friends I spoke with brought up who they think you are and asked me if I knew.
I will assume that they are incorrect about you being an elder, since you are suggesting that I ask for a higher level of transparency on the church finances.
Were you an elder, you would be aware of the long history of discussions, of which I have been a part, regarding that topic.
I an hoping — and praying — for a cultural change in how our church finances are managed, policies on accountability, respect for budgets approved by the members, and reporting of expenditures.
With our recent leadership change, there is now an opportunity for our elders to make those changes and restore confidence in church leadership.
In any case, I appreciate your viewpoint on meeting local needs as an integral emphasis of the local church.
I do believe that we need to follow the money, even after we contribute.
If questions remain about how it is spent, or how clearly we can see how it is spent, I believe we are still responsible for those outcomes.
I don’t know how much City Church explains to its members, or how much of an authority role there is for the members to approve a budget.
If City Church members approve a budget and that budget is busted by actual expenditures, then in the words of Ricky Ricardo “Someone has some ‘splaining to do.”
And now the news…
Over 1,500,000 people were without power in the Northwest after this latest strong winter storm.
How many emergency generators could pastor wendell smith have bought with that $1,400,000?
Well, that depends on the price per unit. I know of internet outlets for generators that sell them for $299.99 each, with a 3% discount for orders over 150 units, with FREE SHIPPING included.
So, $299.99 X 97% = $290.99 each.
That would have been 4,811 generators.
The news a moment ago said that Kirkland was still without power.
[Comment ID #17935 Will Be Quoted Here]
I believe their power is back in D.C.!
Oh, those sarcastic comments, meant entirely in jest (I asure you), sometimes just slip out…………
DW
Thank you. What did I fail to make good points on?
Your friends read this also? Do they comment under their real names, or a pseudonym?
It’s possible that a person who may or may not be an elder may be frustrated by obstructionism on the board, and chooses to let another person carry the standard into battle. In any case, it appears that you have been interested in this cause for a long period of time, haven’t you?
Yes, opportunity knocks. Loudly. It’s a limited time opportunity, too.
I agree.
Not being a member of that church, I wouldn’t know.
I am still waiting for one of the flock there to ask pastor wendell smith why he chose to allow people to go hungry in apparent retaliation for Doug Cotton being asked to resign.
Just a side thought: I bet Dan Ayres would have liked one of the generators that city church could have bought with the $1,400,000 that they spent on that house in Washington, D.C.
They could have bought this instead of that house.
Inventory > Used Generator Sets > GE MS 5001 M
Manufacturer: GE
Model: MS 5001 M
Hz:
KW: 17900
Hours: 1
Phase:
Power: Dual Fuel
Serial#: 179452
Unit#: 49495
Description: General Electric 17.9 MW Frame 5M Gas Turbine Generator Set, Model #: MS5001, Turbine Serial #: 179452, Generator Serial #: 8384369, 21,176 kVa, 60 Hz, 3 Phase, 12600/13800 Volt, Built in 1971, Less Than 16,000 Total Operated Hours, Refurbished to Zero Hour Factory New Specs. Turbine Enclosure Dimensions: 38’3″L x 10’6″Wx 12.6′H, Turbine Approx. Weight: 176,000 lbs, Generator Enclosure Dimensions: 29’4″L x 10’6″W x 12.6′H, Generator Approx. Weight: 140,100 lbs. Refurbishment Summary and Borescope Pictures Available. Price in US Dollars Ex-Works USA Port.
Price: $1,399,000.00
http://www.dieselserviceandsupply.com/Used-Generators/GE-17900-179452.aspx
ROTFL!!! That’s too funny….it’s a small, small, small, small world…..unless you are out of power and out on the farm….:o)
[Comment ID #17941 Will Be Quoted Here]
Watching the Elk grazing…
:O) and getting shot!
[Comment ID #17943 Will Be Quoted Here]
With a bow and arrow.
*chuckle* this is creepin’ me out!
)
It’s probably irritating those who are subscribed to this thread though….:o)
If Dan had received one of those generators from pastor wendell smith, I bet the counters would have been clean, too.
Oh well, I guess buying a million-dollar house in the nation’s capitol was more important to pastor wendell smith than helping freezing and starving people in his own state.
*Shaking head*
You don’t have to read very far in 2 Peter, 1,2 and 3 John or Jude to see exactly what we were warned against in these last days regarding “certain men who have crept in unnoticed…who have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit…who feast with believers without fear, serving only themselves; they are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit….walking according to their own lusts; they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage….”
It’s pretty sad when the mission field extends right into the church…:o/
*sigh*
The prophets of profit.
Men who are not ashamed to distribute other people’s money for their own goals.
What a sad state of affairs.
Quite presumptious indeed, although personally, I consider it God’s money, given in good faith by His children as a collection for the faithful saints who labor in today’s ‘temple’, as well as to the poor, who are with us always….
I think this is what I meant to post:
It would be unfortunate to find that there is not a new sense of total openness on the board.
Given that the elders reported feeling intimidated and reported that their concerns were often dismissed, it seems that they would now be open to concerns and ideas from each other and the members of the church.
Yes, I have been rining the bell for many years now on the financial concerns.
Sometimes it is like pulling teeth, wouldn’t you agree?
While they pose as ‘fathers’ and ‘shepherds’ who pretend to care for the wellbeing of their ‘flock’, it’s becoming obvious their hearts are more concerned with position and power. What’s so disconcerting is those people in their flocks are gullibly believing everything coming from their pulpits. Woe.
Yes it would. I also understand that anyone who has been “burned” in the past is far less likely to volunteer to be burned again.
Possibly, unless they feel intimidated by Doug Cotton’s followers, or unless they feel “Burned”, see above.
And who do you think was setting the policy at that time? The elders? or Doug Cotton?
Without anesthesia.
This comment strikes at the heart of dysfunctional board and leadership.
I have served on many boards in the past 2 decades, and never have I (as a board member) been intimidated by the staff who report to the board.
One man, with his board of 6-9 intimidated by the one man?
Seems that the problem is not just with the one man, doesn’t it?
Dan Wood
[Comment ID #18650 Will Be Quoted Here]
Oh I don’t know, after all, Hitler ruled the Reich, and he was only one man too.
One question to all of you who oppose spending money on a house used for ministry and not distributing to the poor? Have you ever studied what God had them construct the temple out of? It wasnt hay, and straw so they could give more money to poor… My God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. 1.4 million is nothing to Him, my advice is to mind your own business… Stop criticizing, and use this time to change the world around you…. If you are trying to reach a rich man, you dont invite him to a shanty… You reach him at the level in which he lives… This is what Christ really did.
You may wish to heed your own advice.
Pastor Wendell Smith cut off the hungry in Grays Harbor.
How is that Biblical?
So when Christ visited Zacchaeus and brought salvation to his house, he had to buy a mansion and drive a beamer – and he certainly didn’t move into the temple. I heard this excuse many times at the city church, but it is an excuse to live lavishly. I got tired of false doctrine disguised to reach the lost, and that is why I no longer attend the city church. I was brainwashed for far too long.
Next time you pull the “we need to be rich to reach the rich” card, consider the words of Paul the Apostle:
I would like to see some preachers in the USA who could be such an example to the church. Remember, Paul was witnessing in some of the wealthiest cities in his time. He didn’t build an empire, he preached the gospel. He didn’t twist peoples arms for money, he labored to see Christ formed in them.
If you want to make lots of money, then make lots of money…just don’t kid yourself and say you are doing it for the lost.
A little food for thought from someone who only a year ago, would have submitted the same post you just did.
Could you show us a verse that describes Jesus showing off material wealth to impress a rich person? He came to people where they lived on a heart level, not a material wealth level. Suggesting that Christians need to flash around money to reach the wealthy says to me that you’re placing worldly values before your Spiritual message.
The sad thing about this, people, is that their are a lot of people who actually believe it. The Bible has been so twisted around in so many sermons that there are many people out there that believe “Christ died so that I might be rich.”
Pray for them. Blog for them.
Once again a point proven of judgement… If any one of you who made the comments above lived anywhere outside of a critical worldview… You would realize the principles of the word of God never change, but the methods do… If I am trying to reach an African, I do not minister to him or her the way I do to a 17 year old teenage american… Hence I am stating God can use whatever tools He wants to reach people effectively and if it cost $5 or $500,000 money is not an object for Him, and that is my point… Find in scripture where it says God is poor and then write back… And also find where Jesus used the same exact way to reach people… It isnt always going to be standing on a street corner giving food to poor people…
And by all means dont judge, I was a missionary in Zimbabwe, and Mozambique for 5 years with my wife… And now have come back here in America to build a discipleship school for young people at our local church… And guess what it cost money… $285,000 to be exact. Now am I a robber because I decided not to have my students sleep in the woods, and give all of that extra money to the poor? So please dont mistake me, people do preach a prosperity gospel and I am NOT one of them… However I have forsaken house, brethren, land, etc, for the sake of Christ to go to Zimbabwe… And now come back to America and have a nice home, and drive a nice car (Mark 10:29-30)… We have been blessed a hundred fold in this life, and will be in the next. And we are here only today because God has spoken that rather than criticize the American church we should build it up, and once again send people out…. AND MY ENTIRE POINT is that it takes money to do certain things God has called you to do… And money is not an object for God… So if you can personaly speak for Wendell Smith as a mediator in between he and God, that they were not supposed to buy that building to reach those people… You HAVE NO ARGUMENT.
As I said before the methods are always different, and if we focus all our time on poor and needy… We neglect the other people who need the gospel as well… Which are rich politicians, and business men. So if you are called to the poor, go to the poor… If you are called to the rich go to the rich… And leave other people’s calling alone.
Here’s a new song I heard on one of those mega-church websites, some pastor was singing it:
Give God all you’ve got to give
And he will set you free
Jesus said since he’s not here
You should give it all to me
Heaven’s doors will open wide
To those who tithe a lot
Please ignore my mansion, my beemer and my yacht
Be a good and faithful servant
So God remembers you
We now accept your credit cards
So cough up, pay your due
You reward is sure to come
But not until you’ve died
I’d take the gold from your fillings too
And heaven knows, I’ve tried
And don’t forget us in your will
When we hear your funeral bell
If we don’t get your whole estate
You know you’ll burn in Hell!!!
So against mega churches eh? Why dont you look up historicaly how many James the lesser Pastored in Jerusalem before it was burned down in 66 A.D.?
And how many Timothy was said to have Pastored after Paul left him in charge of the church?
Just look at the numbers for yourself and do the math… You will find, MEGA churches…
And nice over-exaggeration there.
Uh, maybe I’m just simple-minded, but whatever happened to reaching the lost by preaching the gospel?
Jesus sat on a hill or in a boat and preached and people either followed him or not. If it takes 24 monitors (the number CBC had a few years ago when I visited their media room) to get someone saved what’s it going to take to keep them saved?
The rich don’t need rich people hobnobbing them to get saved. They need the gospel. Same as the poor.
No, I am against pastors who preach that titheing is how you get into Heaven, and that salvation can be bought by donating to their churches.
I also have a low tolerance for people who believe that works is how you get into Heaven.
Try preaching on a hill in Washington DC and see how many get saved… He backed up His word with the major aspect of the gospel… Which was discipleship.
My point being I can go to Africa preach on a hill and many people will listen, and many may come to Christ because of how the world system is set up there…
If I do the same in NYC, or DC… People walk by without even gazing!
What am I going to do to reach them then? Minister to them in a way that they will recieve from me… Maybe preaching on a hill if it works, maybe inviting rich senators to stay at my building and sharing the gospel one on one just as Jesus did to the woman at the well…
LEt us be open minded…. We wonder why most of america is falling into the world? Maybe because we are trying the ol’ preach on the street method, and America is not hearing it anymore… And it is time to show the power of the Gosepl in a more relational way…
I think you miss my point. I don’t think Wendell Smith is spending millions of dollars to reach the rich and powerful. I think Wendell Smith is spending millions of dollars to further inflate his already rather large ego.
But rather than go out and get a job in a corporation. He uses the Church and his status as a pastor to manipulate people into giving him money. It’s pretty despicable, actually.
When I see a mega-church pastor going into a ghetto I might believe you.
Tim Haggard had a mega church. It’s really reaching the world right now. Maybe he was trying to reach his friend relationally.
Back to the subject at hand, I bet the condo is for personal use only. It’s certainly not zoned for a church. Why does City Church need the condo for ministry if the NPC already exists? Why do they need 2 condos unless they both plan to live there permentantly but for now part of the year? hmmmm, i wonder when they plan to turn their churches over to their sons? good plan. what better way to get 2 houses in another expensive city?
Joe,
No one is saying don’t reach the rich senator types or the poor. Many ministries start out helping the poor than work their way up the ladder of economic
levels. However once up there -how many times do you really see them go on back to those areas. Believe me its nicer to minister on C Street or in the Canon building –become a member of the Club on Capital Hill.
We have seen some culturally relevant pastors that reach both the wealthy and the impoverished here and abroad, but they keep their eye on the ball-meaning they are not building up their personal wealth.
As I remember Paul did preach to Kings within their courts –but he himself
wasn’t building a condo for himself on Malta.
Just in case you couldn’t hear the sarcasm in my voice, let me state that I was being sarcastic. His church is the most spotlighted mega church in America right now because of his double life was exposed. Here’s a case where Christians knew of this situation but didn’t speak up so the deception continued on. Anyhoos, the impact is sweepingly more negative than it ever could be positive. Maybe the grass roots street level sharing of the gospel has more effect after all?
Also, Ted’s a perfect example of what Fortunes said about starting out with noble intentions i.e. his church is the small groups capital of the church world today, building relationships and taunting accountability when in fact there is none as far as Ted goes. Maybe his underlings have it but he didn’t. The power goes to his head and, goshdarnit, what WAS the original intent? The same could be true for the politics obsessed churches and their perceived calling to have relationship with those on the hill. I guess we will wait and see.
Jo-Jo,
Here are a couple of scriptures to ponder…Does it say God is poor? Don't be rediculous. Does it point Christians away from the rich? Perhaps, perhaps, per…haps.
Luke 14:12-14 12Then Jesus said to his host, "When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or relatives, or your rich neighbors; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid. 13But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, 14and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."
Proverbs 22:16 16 He who oppresses the poor to increase his wealth and he who gives gifts to the rich—both come to poverty
Ok, so I commented on this post wayyyy back in the beginning, and as a result, my email inbox has been flooded with over 200 “new comments” (but it’s gmail so they kind of stack themselves in the same email) ((and I’m not sure how to make them stop)), butttt I must say it’s been quite a wild ride and finally I think the real issue is being exposed and Reformed Pope just made me pump my fist 2 times in the air consecutively.
“Does it say God is poor? Don’t be rediculous. Does it point Christians away from the rich? Perhaps, perhaps, per…haps.”
Perfect.
[Comment ID #18871 Will Be Quoted Here]
EXACTLY!!!
I love this church. What a wonderful man, Pastor Wendell. if you’ve ever been a part of what happens up there you’d know that this church not only helps the poor, feeds the hungery, is actively preaching the Gospel in their city and positivley influencing people for Jesus all over the world. But what impresses me most is the church [meaning the Christians who call that place home] are passionate for God.
Be careful not to jump on the band wagon in these comments. You may find out that the people who cause the most hurt in the church are those that speak with authority on subjects they know nothing about.
Just a word of caution
Rg
Reforming Heathen
Concerning your generator comment
Did you purchase a generator for anyone in Seattle during that time..?
Ya gotta watch out for those planks when trying to get that speck!
rg why do you assume people here don’t know him personally?
Are you a family member of his? Maybe we know much more than u
think -written from personal experience.
do you think this was all written in a vacumn?
No i just think alot of what is written, is written out of hurt, offense, rejection. Which is alright, i understand we all go through stuff, i am just trying to level the playing field.
Family of his….hey ya never know!
-rg
What rejection would that be? Maybe we are rejecting those who have
little to no financial accountability to their congregations, who dont spend money given to designated offerings. Would you agree that is not
full disclosure Rg, especially on the Hill where your friend Tom Delay
had that little mishap with his finances
Since you are so in the know Rg –how exactly will this townhouse
on townhouse row be used as a church? Is it zoned for that yet?
And when was it announced at City Church that they purchased this
‘townhouse’ exactly? I’d love to hear about it. Where is it on their church website exactly–
I can’t find it? For an outreach as large as this one, wouldn’t you agree
that total disclosure is a valid point? Who’s money was used in purchasing
the building? Who’s name is on the deed and title?
Since you appear to be so close to the project please enlighten us. If we just heard some valid answers than this site and thread could close.
If you set up shop in Washington, DC so close to those in power –don’t you think you should expect the same type of questioning that every other
organization on the hill recieves?
If you want to live and play in the big boy’s club than you better come to
expect to play by their rules. Questions about your motives and
finances will become daily life if you want to build on Capital Hill.
Why is that hard for you to understand? You are not going to enjoy the anonymity you’ve had out west.
How do you think it even showed up on this blog to begin with?
Let the games begin
Is the city church perfect -nope
perfect pastor – nope
should that be an excuse for accountability- i guess thats up to you.
An honest thought…
I’m not sure if God sees His church as a democracy simply because its in america.
are there abuses absolutely.
does God know how to take care of them- you betcha!
[Refer to saul]
Its a hard thing to swallow but my God is a good God, and He really does know how to take care of His church.
Does He allow bad things to happen in his name…yup. i donno why, my job is to believe that He exists, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.
i don’t know what you’ve gone through, but sincerely apology on behalf of His church, if you’ve been hurt. I ask for your forgiveness.
The best way to get over hurt and manipulation is to go to a church
where you see things done the right way. Are they perfect no but they have
totally restored my hope in seeing that things can be done right. That
was worth more to me than any apology but thank you.
How do you think they figured out new ways to do things –by seeing it done
in a wrong way and determining to be part of the solution not part of the problem. That is what this blog is for –though it may seem critical to the
church it is the very thing that can help it survive because the world will be
much more critical of it if we don’t stop the abuse done in the name of the
church. You were drawn here for a reason. I’ve learned at my new church
in stead of running away from these things we confront them and are free to
ask questions. Now I’m still waiting for the answers to the questions concerning the townhouse. Who will answer them directly and clearly?
RG, is following Jesus (Matthew 16:24) the same as following Wendell Smith?
Sam
Why is it whenever someone asks how money is being spent they are
always hit with accusations of being bitter or angry and everytime its
quoted there are no perfect church’s.
On the spiritual abuse website under 10 questons to see if you are in a
controlling church –financial matters and openess to questions is a red herring.
If you are not able to ask questions directly and get a clear answer it is ALWAYS
a sign of problems or dysfunction.
If you want to know, why don’t you go to The City Church and ask someone who knows? Or I suppose you could just support all the accusations without any real evidence or proof. Maybe there is a good use for this town house, maybe not, but in the mean time you have no right to comment on weather or not i was the right thing to do. You’re not a part of the church and your not a part of the vision. Pastor Wendell or anyone in his church for that matter does not have to answer to you or anyone else on this blog. He has accountabillity in place, and they have to be in agreement to make a purchase like the one in D.C.
It seems to me the only thing anybody knows about the house is the amount of money spent on the house. So that, i geuss, is the basis for this blog. If you truely believe in God, then you believe that amounts of money are nothing to him. He will provide all our needs according to HIS riches in glory.
When’s the last time you bought something you didn’t need? I’m guilty, We all are. So I guess that means we all have to work on getting that plank out of our eyes. Then perhaps we can see clearly.
Just one more thing. The tiny 30,000 dollars i make every year is like millions to those in other countries. I only gave about 15% of my income away last year. Maybe I should be the subject of this blog.
‘Matt didn’t give all of his money and possesions to the poor!!’
Oh… but that’s right I’m not a pastor of a large church. If I was then I’d be the subject of this blog, because it’s obvious that a pastor giving his life to ministry is not enough he also has to give everything he owns and every little penny he makes to the poor. I thought God was a rewarder of those who diligently seek him? I could be wrong after all. I am young and therefore stupid.
So I guess I can expect someone to make a comment that has NOTHING to do with the point I’m illustrating here. Well.. maybe that’s because I’m not clear.
So if I’m not clear here is my point.
No one has any right to judge this descision. God judges the heart of a man. The only thing we can judge is the fruit. There seems to be some pretty good fruit from Pastor Wendells ministry. Unless you close your eyes, and run around in circles with your fingers in you ears screaming and yelling. It might be hard to see the fruit then.
Really? You don’t think Wendell should be accountable to his own flock for how he spends their money?
Matt, your homework assignment, should you choose to accept it, is to look up the words “judge” and “discern” and variations thereof (Miriam Webster), read the biblical definitions (Thayer or Unger), read the Greek definitions (Strongs), and use your concordance to locate and read every NT scripture where “discern” and “judge” and variations thereof are used. Then write a report, 500 words minimum, on how the words are alike and how they differ. Your report is due by Monday at noon. For extra credit, apply what you have learned to your previous post and rewrite it accordingly.
Have a nice weekend.
Sam
[Comment ID #23023 Will Be Quoted Here]
He is accountable to his flock. NOT YOU!!
I hate to break it to you Matt. But some of his flock are on this blog.
Also, I’d like to apologize for using the word “flock”.
I would just like to point out that there is only one Shepherd and only one “flock”. Paul exhorted us not to say that we are of this guy or that guy. Just my 2 cents
Josh, good point.
I wonder, IF a person claims to be of “Wendell Smith’s” flock, or Franks Flock (ahhh, alliteration), do they still belong to Jesus? Such claims seem to be rooted in the false ‘covering’ doctrine, whereby we often name some human as our spiritual covering, or our go-between …
Reminds me of when people would ask “what religion are you”, expecting me to say “Episcopalian” or the like, and were always shocked when I said “I’m a believer in Jesus” …
Always hated identifying myself with a particular set of doctrine or form of church government.
I suppose that depends on your definition of fruit, Matt.
Matt,
I used to go to the City Church. This time last year, I would have written the same response as you. I encourage you to continue to listen to the sermons at the City Church and ask the difficult questions about their theology. Ask where the prosperity gospel came from, ask where word-faith came from and the history of the speakers they bring in. The answers may shock you, as they did me. Be warned…this is a process that takes a lot of work, and it is very uncomfortable.
I chose to leave the group because I wasn’t comfortable bringing up my children in the atmosphere. I helped with the children’s program for about a year, and I saw what was ingraned about giving/getting even at a young age.
I used to judge the “fruit” of the City Church to be good…until I saw that if I judged the Mormons by the same standards…they would have good “fruit”.
Anyway..that’s my take on it.
Yes, and then if you choose to leave if the Lord gives you that grace, many people will question your motives and loyalty, label you as rebellious and in deception, so it will continue to be uncomfortable on that level. But the peace you will experience in your heart, as well as the joy of obedience will gain you a new freedom and maturity in the Lord you never knew was possible! And that isn’t worth trading for all the acceptance from men you could receive in an entire lifetime!
Neat observation there, CCexM. Thanks.
Oh Matt –I love circular reasoning. Thats right don’t answer the questions but revert to dogma. I have scanned their web site and information on Washington, DC till I’m blue in the face. If you do attend there weekly than You are that City Church member I am nicely asking an informational question –ok
I am directly asking an informational question about what was announced
there at your church. I just want to know if it was all done in private or
announced after the fact and who pays for it exactly.
Do you know that the NPC is right down the street. Maybe just maybe thats why we know the situation
as well as, or a little better than you do. We have already walked this walk.
Another informational question –who exactly is he accountable to? I mean for information sake I’d like to know is that his cousin Ken who has the house down the street or Frank who has no control over him or people on their
board who are extreme givers. I’m not being mean I want you to look at it because its exactly the same as many other boards represented here.
Since when does asking a question concerning financial accountability
mean we think they are accountable to us. Is it a non profit organization–
do they have people who contribute their hard earned dollars to their
cause?
Do you know there are many churches who choose to go under the guidelines
of a Christian Financial Organization –who knows the initials out there?
It protects the church and the congregation from being in the dark.
Its okay Matt to come into the light and answer questions of the most basic
financial nature. We really don’t care if it was purchased for 500.00 or
3 million tithing dollars. Given the neighborhood its the perception that counts –so why not be totally open.
I for one am so sick of secretiveness about where MY MONEY–
in tithes or offerings are spent.
My point is if you don’t attend The City Church it’s nunya. As in none of your buisness.
Now can someone tell me how to stop these emails from coming. I have 15,000 of them in my inbox?
Um… uncheck the “notify me of followup comments via e-mail” box…
Matt wasn’t it you who gave us a discourse on the church and the love of the
body ect. Doesn’t City Church represent the body of Christ? If they do anything unethical won’t every church in the Seattle area suffer for it —can you see it being broadcast on the nightly news> non-christians just love to get a hold of things that are done unethically by ministries. What if it breaks out in Washington, D.C. an even more public stage?
I guess PTL was also none of my business either. I wasn’t a partner and I didn’t buy a lifetime membership to their theme park. So glad the fallout from that only affected PTL members and non one else. Right Matt?
If on