My brother Jesse tips me off to an OregonLive news story regarding a Newsong Church Leader, named Jeremy Thompson who was recently indicted for molesting a couple of teenagers in the church. Crazy thing is uh… he used to work in the City Bible youth group and uh, my brothers and I kind of knew him. Jesse offers the following insight:
He used to live with a family I knew. We always called him Jeremy the pedophile because he was always having young boys spend the night. He helped out a bunch with City Bible's Junior High Youth Group. I know it is sad, but in a sick way I think that it is hilarious that as a 16 year old I knew that what this guy was doing was creepy/inappropriate. And that no one ever said to him, "Hey Jeremy why don't you just take the kids to lunch. Why do you always have to have sleep overs."
FWIW, Jeremy always seemed nice to me, and I never suspected anything. But here's an example where standing up to the church would be the right thing to do.
For those who need a picture to jog their memory click here.
Update: A reader points out that Jeremy wasn't convicted he was only indicted. I read the report too fast, and I used the wrong term. I apologize for the mis-information. At this point, Jeremy is innocent until proven guilty.
Further Update: Despite Jeremy's presumed innocence, he did work in the Junior High Youth Group, and he did have young boys spend the night. Perhaps this is all a misunderstanding; perhaps not. That said, if your child attended YO, City Bible's Junior High Youth Group anytime in the last ten or so years, you might want to ask them about their relationship with Mr. Thompson.
Long time reader, first time blogger . . . (I enjoy it by the way)
I hate stuff like this. I was friends with him for a short time at PBC. I thought he was a pretty good guy even if he was a bit odd (then again so am I).
P.S. I was also sad to hear about David Andrew. I wasn’t really that close to him but I have a great memory of him leading we, the mighty PBC basketball team, in a rousing rendition of the Star-Spangled Banner in the locker room at a school in Canada. Also I remember sitting around with “near beers” and discussing ‘Da Bulls.
You know that City Bible has to be pumped that New Songs name is attached to this article and not theirs.
I visited with Jeremy a relatively short while before his arrest. Out of curiosity, I asked him about his involvement at City Bible. Jeremy told me that he used to pick up Frank’s children for him from school. I thought that he also said that he faithfully picked up Frank’s favorite morning latte for him, too, but I’m foggy on that point. I got the impression from Jeremy that he was quite the servant to Frank and his family. I also got the impression, although I might have totally misunderstood him at this point, that his active and practical serving of Frank and his family was part of the inspiration or confirmation for Portland Bible College to move away from being an academic institution (note the firing of Larry Taylor and Ken Ross, supporters of PBC’s universtiy transfer program) and move toward being more of an “internship” program, giving the PBC students more of an opportunity to “serve” the City Bible leadership! Could it be that when someone is actively serving us that we really do not see their personal needs for help because we are too busy using them to meet our own needs?
Of course he was a nice guy, as a ten year old you wouldn’t be excited to have a sleep over with him if he was an ass.
Do you have a different news article than the one you posted here? Nothing I read said that he has been convicted yet, just indicted. Not that I’d ever let my kids hang out with him, but he is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. Plus, you guys knew him, not new him. Tsk, tsk.
Jeremy was a friend of mine for the few years before I moved away. I’m hesitant to even write that, wondering “what will people think”. I guess you can take the girl out of CBC but you can’t take the CBC out of the girl. Anyway, this really shocked and saddened me, and it makes me wonder what other people struggle with. Even more so, it makes me wonder what that hidden sin and pain will lead others to do. I would never even attempt to make excuses for someone who has abused their position of authority in order to take advantage of a child’s trust and friendship for their own personal desires. I agree with that last sentence of yours, David. I know the fear of not wanting to expose my sin for fear of losing my “position” in a pastor’s eyes or more importantly, in their lives, losing the prestige of being thisclose to an esteemed leader.
So, if Jeremy had grown up in another church, a church family that approaches confession and forgiveness of sin from a God perspective rather than one of fear and shame, would he have opened up and talked about this root, this pattern of thinking that led to such awful behaviour? Maybe, maybe not, but I do know that even if there was not a place for him to be honest and transparent that does not excuse the behavior he chose. Maybe I’m wrong, but from what the Bible says I also know that God loves Jeremy as much as he loves the children Jeremy took advantage of.
A thought came to mind while reading Hannah’s post…from this quote inparticular
Maybe we put too much stock in the pastor. Making him a celebrity (common problem these days in the mega or wanna be mega churches) instead of a normal person who has been gifted to teach us God’s Word. From what I’ve read and understand from the Word is that the pastor (or anyone within a leadership role) should be a person you can share your struggles and sins with without fear of rejection. While I know the fear of losing “position”, having been in a few not so healthy churches, I also know total acceptance. You know your church is good when you feel you can talk about anything with your pastor or leadership team and they will come beside you with a helping hand.
I’m sad to hear about this Jeremy Thompson fellow. Sad for him and the kids involved in this. May healing be brought to them all.
Jeremey is a very nice guy; this sort of thing is really too bad. He is alleged to have done something very foolish/harmful/selfish and, if it’s true, he will be held accountable for that. That’s the role of the law: to hold people accountable. The role of the church, however (IMHO), is to hold people to grace.
I wonder why it’s such popular armchair quarterbacking to point out the “fruit” of certain churches, and yet pretend the “fruit” of other favored churches (i.e. substance abuse, marital infidelity, what-have-you) doesn’t exist? I mean, let’s be fair: every church has their screw-ups and if we fail to acknowledge that, we deceive ourselves. If we’re coming from a “place of grace” perspective, don’t you think we ought to extend that grace beyond our own interests?
(Now that I’ve painted a big red target on my jersey, fire away; I’m standing still.)
I was wondering how City Bible was going to spin this. Now I know.
James 4:17–> To him therefore who knows to do good, and doesn’t do it, to him it is sin.
I have nothing to do with CBC, other than I attend. I don’t speak from any reference of authority–in fact, I differ with many leaders at CBC on a lot of things.
My point is that it seems to be a real cause celebre when anyone from the “IC” stumbles (Haggard, Thompson, etc.), while there’s grace-o-plenty for anyone else. What it sounds like is,
“We’re going to give So-and-so the freedom to fail because, hey, they’re only human and their need for grace is no different from my own, and , ‘there, but for the grace of God, go I’, right? But that Haggard guy stumbles and man are we going to burn him at the stake! I always knew that Thompson guy was creepy… he’s gonna get what he deserves.”
(Obviously, I’m elaborating here.) Where’s the front page headline celebrating So-and-so’s failure? It’s nowhere to be found… and neither should it be. The same is true of Haggard and Thompson. I’m not saying there shouldn’t be dialogue about issues of moral failure. In fact, dialogue of this nature is very helpful and healing for a lot of people.
But this kind of frothing at the mouth because “we’ve got ourselves an IC casualty” is nothing short of stone-throwin’ demagoguery.
The bottom line is we’re ALL creeps. We’re ALL damaged goods. We ALL fail God every single day. And anyone who thinks their secret sin (or So-and-so’s sin) is somehow different, is mistaken. It’s because of grace that we all won’t get what we really deserve. I supposes that may depend on whom you talk to, though, eh?
You raise a couple of good points.
As for Jeremy, I would like to wait until all the facts are in before making any more judgements. But yes, he needs grace, just as much as I need grace. However, he may still have to face the consquences of the law.
As for a certain large, lopsided breasted church in N. Portland, I’m concerned that they may have been letting a youth leader spend the night alone with young boys. I tend to think that is inappropriate. But again, I’ll wait until all the facts are in.
Lastly, yes, we do seem to hold those who attend an Institutional Church to a higher standard than those who don’t. Why do you think that is?
Bloggy,
I agree with you. One thing to try and remember is that there are different writers on this blog who live different lives in different places. I don’t think you can direct the “place of grace” jabs to anyone other than me and I didn’t write anything about Jeremy.
That being said, you are right.
I will say this though, grace is much easier to extend to someone who admits their sin and asks for forgiveness (publicly) than someone who tries to ignore it, deny it, or hide it. Should we throw stones? No. Should we hold accountable? Yes.
I think it comes down to a heart issue and, as usual, you can be the judge of that.
I went to PBC with this guy…Karli
I know much of the inside story regarding Jeremey, like how he spells his name. The most accurate article thus far is the one on Oregonlive.com. He did not drive to Bagby naked w/ them. But he was indicted Nov. 20 in Clackamas County on two counts of child sex abuse and two counts of encouraging child sex abuse. And It wasn't a sanctioned event, . It was something he did on his own, with a couple of students he knew on his own even before he was at New Song. One of the students was new to him.
J. Thompson was hired to an interim position in June and let go Sept. 7, five days before church leaders heard the full extent of Thompson actions Thompson confirmed some of those rumors, and church leaders contacted the Oregon Department of Human Services. "While in the company of the students, Jeremey admittedly made some inappropriate comments and exhibited some inappropriate behavior, both of which were sexual in nature," according to a statement that New Song Church issued to its congregation Sept. 17.
"As far as we know, however, there was no physical contact between Jeremy and any of the male students.This is what I was told from someone very close to the situation at New Song. Some of the blogs make it sound like he molested little children, 2 of the 3 students parents to this day i think believe this case is being blown out of proportion. He DID do very stupid things and will probable get some jail time or probation for it. I would like to hear from Jeremey and will try to reach out to him."
And now we have NewSong’s spin.
“Where’s the front page headline celebrating So-and-so’s failure? It’s nowhere to be found…”
I just wanted to point out that in Jeremy’s case, these were under age boys. That is why is name/face is a front page headline.
I think one of the reasons there is less grace for leaders in the IC is because there is so much more haughtiness there. For those of us who have served the “First Family” and been “priviledged” to have been so trusted as to scrub thier personal toilets, and to serve elders in their home–when there has been so much of that GARBAGE (bowing down, overattachment, awe to the point of near veneration) , when we are freed from that it’s kind of fitting for us to see them stumble.
Not that we rejoice when they fall–but when we have been judged by THEM for our foibles, and forced to confess, and not promoted, and on and on, our anger comes out when they do fall.
If there had been more grace from the IC, we would be more grace-full. We are only repeating what we have seen.
KM
Kick ‘em while they’re down Kari!
Karli:
I’m trying to understand your perspective–I think I do, but maybe not totally. I’ve seen a lot of pastors and leaders expect to be treated like movie stars, although I’ve never been one to kowtow to their demands. I recognize that they’re just people, maybe religiously proud, maybe self-indulgent, probably out of touch.
Your strong reaction to those in the IC who stumble might be understandable, although it might be good to also remember that Christ loved us and gave himself for us even when we were complete buttholes. It’s what makes grace that much more amazing, and that much more challenging when we’re put into a position to offer grace to someone who either has treated us poorly, or represents a system that has treated us poorly.
This discussion is making me want to watch Les Miserables again.
I agree with every single person here who thinks there’s room for improvement in the IC. Grace, I think, is extremely important for that to happen.
Let’s get it straight Bloggy McBlogster…it was Kari not Karli to whom you should be addressing your post.
Bloggy,
Understand too, that I am not judging or blaming this young man. I took your words and applied them to my former pastors (who haven’t fallen).
And, that even though they hurt me tremendously, I still love them enough to protect their identity on this website. I still love them period, and at one point considered them my mom and dad, perhaps even more so than my own parents.
It’s that depth of love, loyalty and committment which makes things so tough when those relationships do come apart, because eventually you grow up and realize that these kinds of relationships are not healthy and that you’re being manipulated and used.
Kari-so relate to what you are saying and if you or anyone else wants to read
a story about this very thing read Gil Moegerle’s book “Dr. Dobson’s War on America’ it is chilling but rings true. If you remember he was Dobson’s cohost –board member and even set up the entire Radio ministry. He worked in close contact for over ten years and thought they had a friendship and close relationship but was used terribly.
So yes from the small to the large -there is some sense of alarm in us when there is injustice and all the harder when it comes from a spiritual leader because within this framework we are taught and watch it modeled for us constantly to place them up on that pedestal. Boundaries are crossed and we find we have lost our identity.
Behavior that has long been covered up like this is often a pattern of abuse and it is just now coming to the surface. Its not we rejoice that it happened or that that they are ‘in trouble’ its that when the sin -wrong behavior is finally exposed the victims finally have a chance to be free from their captors.
The point of this discussion is when someone in authority abuses those under
their authority it is worse and more hurtful esp. when it is a spiritual authority –that wound goes right to the spirit and those are some of the hardest to heal. So if it seems like people rejoice –its because we all have a sense of justice and wanting these things brought to light to stop the abuse. I believe its a God-given characteristic –just as is mercy and patience and finally trust when you don’t see it happening and wonder why.
North by Northwest–That’s exactly it. Thanks. I’ll find the book.
I am Jeremey’s friend of many years. What I have to say is “Thou shall not Judge lest thee be judged.” > For the person that said that (and I paraphrase) that she didn’t want to admit she knew him becasue someone would think less of her I say; Did Jesus turn away the leper? Did Jesus embrace or shun those that fell from grace. If you, as a christian, want to follow Jesus’ teachings know that He taught to love all and not to judge one. No one has convicted Jeremey, except for the court of popular opinion. I know him as a wonderful man whom has helped me through some of the hardest times in my life. To gossip about him in this way is not only reprehensible but a injustice to the name of the lord.
I apologize for the horrid grammer and spelling mistakes.
I don’t think it’s gossip to discuss what someone has done. Also, I believe (but don’t always practice) that you shouldn’t ever do something that you would not want discussed.
Of course I would not want public scrutiny of all my failures, BUT if my sins were to somehow find their way on to this blog, the truth would be that I had committed them–the error would not be with the one discussing them, but in the one committing them.
ANYONE who preports to a leadership role places their life into a place of scrutiny. That just goes with the territory.
*If as a friend, you are not able to handle folks talking about what your friend has done, then I suggest you may be too attached.
My first boyfriend turned out to be a child molestor. (I found out this later.) That I was 13, and he 19 when we got together, perhaps should have been my first clue. It was very sad for me when I found out because I really cared about him.
BUT, I couldn’t defend him–he did what he did.
Jeremey’s friend,
I wasn’t saying that I didn’t want people to know that I knew Jeremey, my point was that the fear of ‘what will others would think of me’ is sometimes greater than our need to bring issues to the surface. I knew Jeremey, I was a good friend of Jeremey’s, and I would like to think that he would have talked about these issues had he had a safe place in which to do so. I am also the wife of a police officer who has seen many terrible things, and the mother of two small children. I have seen the damage that children suffer when the relationship they have with leaders of any kind is abused and twisted. So while I love Jeremey and wish he’d had the kind of safe place to work through these things before he came to this point in his life, there is no way that he can use that as an excuse for his actions, which, according to the OregonLive article, he has confirmed.
And sorry I misspelled his name, Johndyakima.
This First Family concept is indeed GARBAGE and makes me want to puke. This is part of the insidious deception of ELITISM that GUESS WHO is sowing in the church today. It’s embarrasing and inexcusable that some of our leaders expect to be treated like the President, or if not expecting it then receiving the behaviour without objection. What this says about that kind of leadership is they aren’t apposed to taking advantage of the vulnerability of the pure-hearted servants that want desperately to please the Lord and they don’t object to preying heavily upon their need for affirmation by an authority figure. Don’t they get that it makes them look like a bunch of schmucks to everyone but themselves and to the pure- hearted servants who try to incur their favor? How are we who stand feebly by supposed to respect THAT? How is the “world” supposed to respect that? It’s an eye-roller.
Wouldn’t a better way be something like: The pure-hearted leader says ‘No, you don’t need to clean my toilet; I should be cleaning your toilet’ and then reminds the followers of JESUS what HE was really all about and still is all about to this day: The servant-of-all concept isn’t for the personal gain of the Pharisees but for the walking-out of the first shall be last and the last shall be first. (By the way, Kari, this isn’t aimed at you. It’s obvious you are free of this now. It’s just when I see that phrase ‘First Family’ I’m reminded it should only be about the President’s family not any one elses.)
my point exactly.
It’s just a sad situation that this would happen to anyone. I don’t know what happend in his life that influenced him to make the decisions that he has made. But if we do call ourselves Christians than we should pray for healing. We should pray for healing for those kids and any other kids that might have been affected, if there were any. And we should also pray for Jeremy for deliverance from whatever drove him to do something this stupid. This is not a “fruit thing”. This is just a very sad tale.
ps. I’m back and ready for some verbal sparring.
I went to school with jeremy and one thing strikes me. He was in constant contact with “mature” “Leaders” and apparently had an established “covering”. That is more than a lot of people got while at PBC. But the only reason he got that attention and status was because he drove his honda accord arround running errands for those guys in position. Frank, Mark Estes and any other leader who would let him. It was obviouse to a lot of people by his desperate nature that something was not right. None of these men questioned his desperate nature but they were happy to cash in. He was a lost and hurting soul that was pimped out. I know that they probably have some excuse. If any of you leaders are reading this please think about the people you are ministering over and stop letting them kiss your ass because it is not good for them.
Homophobia in Bible Temple:
Around 1984 while still on staff at PBC, I met a brother named James (name changed). James was a Christian brother who had struggled with homosexuality for many years. James told me that he went to Dick Iverson, the sr. pastor of Bible Temple, and asked him if the local church would sponsor a support group for Christian men who struggled with sexual attraction to other men. James told me that Dick Iverson said that there was no way that Bible Temple would sponsor such a group. According to James, Dick said that he would not want a bunch of men who were struggling with homosexuality to be in the same room with each other lest they start lusting after each other. This decision by Dick so hurt and disappointed James that he left Bible Temple, and, as far as I know, went back to his homosexuality.
A Support Group that Heals Homosexuals:
Just the other day, a Christian psychologist (whom I will call Dr. Tom) told me that he used to lead a Christian men’s group composed of both homosexually-struggling and heterosexual men. He explained that such a mixed group was highly unusual because the male attendees would normally feel threatened, but not in this group. Dr. Tom shared how he encouraged all of the men to hug one another whether they were struggling with their heterosexual identity or not. When I asked him why, Dr. Tom said that those who were struggling so much with homosexual tendencies needed to have other men give them sincere, affectionate but non-sexual hugs since they were only used to the touches of other men being of a sexual nature. Dr. Tom shared that this group saw many, many men turn away from homosexuality, get married and lead normal family lives.
How Bible Temple’s Controlling Spirit Hurt its own Struggling Church Members:
About the same time as meeting James (above), I was visiting with Phil Hobizal, former director of the Portland Fellowship, an Exodus International, Inc. ministry which counsels struggling homosexuals and lesbians. Phil told me that Bible Temple (now City Bible Church) had some church members who were struggling with homosexual issues, but that they would not refer them to the Portland Fellowship for counseling unless Bible Temple leadership had full access to each one of their church members’ counseling files! Phil had to tell them that he could not do that because it was unethical (and probably illegal). As a result, Bible Temple leaders would not refer their own sexually struggling members to a place that specialized in the healing of homosexuals.
Jesus Rebukes the Over-controlling, Uncaring Spirit of Religion:
In my view, we have a doubly sad and abusive state of affairs here: not only would Bible Temple not host a support group for its own church members who were struggling with homosexuality, they also refused to refer their members out to the Portland Fellowship because its director would not violate the privacy of his counselees by giving Bible Temple full access to their church members’ files! Such a situation reminds me of the words that Jesus says to the pastors of His day: “”Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering” (Luke 11:52, NIV). The spirit of “control-over” is a familiar part of the demonics behind human Relgion. Such leaders, when they see that they will not be in total control, would rather allow hurting people to continue in their wounded ways than to assist them in getting the genuine help they need. I don’t think such actions reflect those of Jesus. (I would be curious as to whether the church’s policy has changed under Frank’s administration…)
Sad outcomes from Bible Temple/CBC. Offhand I know of 4 men who had come out of homosexuality only to go back into it after many years of “straight” living and serving God, marriage and families. Two of them are dead of AIDS. Tragic loss. Tragic the consequences on the families these men had made. Breaks my heart.
Here are some of my thoughts on the subject of relationship with those who lead (for what it’s worth):
1. They are just needy humans, whether they recognize it or not. They are imperfect, still maturing, liable to sin, and acts of indescretion.
2. Never say to a leader, “I want to submit my life to you and your counsel. Whatever you speak into my life I will receive.” Some of you will say, “Whew, what kind of a wacko would say such a thing?” I can tell you I have had that said to me, and I have had various modifications of it expressed towards me. When I was an IC pastor I LOVED IT! – I’m now sad to say. It made me feel important, needed, near to God, and the blessing I always wanted to be. Problem? I was just a man, and such relationships ONLY belong between a believer and God himself.
3. If you know a leader who needs that stuff, accepts that stuff, or encourages that stuff, do one or both of the following. Put on your Nike’s and run as fast away from there as you can, and/or, speak slowly and clearly, “You being a man, make yourself out to be God…not good, really not good!” Only when those words were spoken to Jesus was the speaker wrong. The rest of us…just mere men.
So how do we safely relate to the leaders God places in the body? Never hero worship. Never self deprecating servanthood. Never fawning attention. Never believe you are a “somebody” just because they say you are. There is only One Person’s affirmation at that level that matters, and it is Jesus’.
It is great to encourage other believers, I’m not suggesting otherwise, but to do things to be applauded by man is the place of enslavement to the approval of men rather than God. Leaders are nothing more than men and women whom God has placed a unique calling on to function in roles of wisdom, service, example, caring, and love to the flock. The very moment a leader forgets this, and turns their function into an office, a title, or a position, look out…you about to be used, abused, and later tossed.
It was an incredible thing to be so honored as an elder at BT. I walked in the Church, and felt like I was a royal figure in the king’s court. I longed for my day of ordination, and I thrilled to that title being set upon me. I’m sooo embarrassed by such thoughts and desires now, but I expose my emotional bondage to the applause of man because to one degree or another anyone who allows another to give him/her a title of honor in the Church is setting themself up for self worship and leading their followers down the primrose pathway to disillusionment when that leader’s humanness is exposed.
Every now and then God allows a Jeremy, or a Ted Haggard, etc., to be exposed. Why? To deliver them and their followers from man worship explains at least a measure of the reason for the exposure.
How did Paul describe himself? 1Cor 3:5 What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each.
I love that! Leaders are not bosses, they are not “in charge,” they are not allowed to use, abuse, and toss away their followers. They are not kings in the midst of peons. They are “servants.” If this is how Paul described himself, and lived out his description it ought to be good for us today.
I love to express care for those who desire counsel or encouragement, but I refuse to be treated like a “religious somebody.” It hurts me and it hurts them. Believe me, from my experience, abusive leadership does not just exist in the IC. Leadership is a biblical principle, and Jesus will always be giving leaders to the Church, IC or non IC. The dangers of self worship are part of our fallenness, and only as we own our self worshipping tendencies and encourage those we lead to hold us accountable to humble, non titled, non lordship type ministry, will the body ever come close, anywhere, to be safe in the presence of leaders.
We who have left the IC were well to do so. I believe that. But I’m not under the illusion that I am now safe from forms of self worship, both as they exist within my own nature, and as they exist in leaders outside the IC. We are wise to walk carefully wherever we fellowship. The less the structure the better, but danger still lurks in the hearts of all fallen men, and all are still “fallen men.” Redeemed though they may be…they are still “in process.”
Amen to everything Tom said, except the IC stuff. It’s new to me and I’m thinking about it, but it seems pretty radical too.
I wonder how this “worship of men” applies to marriage. My mom has always believed (overly I think) in submission in marriage.
It seems a danger to me that Godly women would put their husbands on a pedestal and “obey” them when perhaps they(the men that is) should be kicked in the pants instead on occasion.
I’m not married so I don’t know, but it seems you could lose yourself in your “oneness” to your spouse too.
KM
Kari,
Whew…now you really get me going…lol
All too often it’s a one for one deal. In other words, those who hold to strong hierarchical authority in the Church, title driven, impressed with position, intellect, and charisma, tend to carry the same thing over into their definitions of submission in marriage.
Either way, submission in marriage is not at all about hierarchical authority, expressed in tones and terms of control.
A little story to help here…
When I first got married, I brought Laura home to my parents, and made a few “control oriented” comments as regards my expectations of Laura. My dad (not a believer) said to me, “What’s the deal? You act like you own Laura. What gives you the right to tell her what she can and can’t do.” My smug, oh sooo biblical answer was (sick) “Dad, you don’t study the bible so you are not aware of the role of a woman in marriage to her husband, but God wants Laura to submit to me, and I’m supposed to tell her what she can and can’t do.” Yucky huh!?
Keep in mind, I was just 19 at the time, and ohhhh sooo green.
But truth be told…that attitude lasted for many years, until the sparkle in Laura’s eyes and personality began to go away. It set me to trying to determine what was going wrong.
Enter some serious biblical rethinks on the subject of a wife’s submission to her husband.
To make a very long story, and detailed analysis of many scriptures, short, I came to recognize that Paul’s use of the word “submit” was not just composed of one Greek word, but depending on the context he used two different words – one was hupotasso and the other was hupakouo. The first one implies a voluntary response to reasonable and gracious leadership, and the other implies absolute obedience to every command.
So which one do you think Paul uses in the marriage context? Right…hupotasso – voluntary response to reasonable and gracious leadership.
What does this look like in our home? I have no right to tell my wife she can or can’t do anything. I’m not the “boss of her…” She is my equal companion. Sometimes I submit to her wisdom and sometimes she submits to my wisdom, and when we face an impasse, where a decision has to be made but we’re not in complete agreement, I never tell her what her decision must be, but she generally seeks to flow with me unless her spirit just knows I’m wrong, and then we agree to disagree and give God more time to bring clarity. In all honesty, I would say at these points, because I no longer impose control oriented leadership she almost always defers to my sense of direction, when we she is uncertain of which way we should go.
Over the years I have counseled with many couples, and almost universally, unresolvable problems exist in marriages where men use force, intimidation, or control, to get their way, and conversely, women who refuse to honor their husbands headship role of leadership, because they just can’t stand doing anything they don’t want to do, are usually the marriages that don’t last.
It is a give and take thing, and the best leadership, especially in the home, is servant leadership. What works well in the home works well in the Church. Why? because the Church is a living organism. like an organic family. It is not a business, a military outpost, or a political party.
My two cents worth. I’m sure others have good things to say to your question as well.
I think that people too often leave out the rest of that scripture…”wives submit to your husbands, and husbands, love your wives….As Christ Loved the Church”. If you consider Christ’s love for the church, it’s pretty easy to re-evaluate the role of submission. It’s easy to “submit” if your husband tries the “Love your wife as Christ loved the church” part.
Tom,
I think that’s my favorite post thus far of all of yours. CP, I am not questioning how easy it would be to submit.
My fear is that it would be too easy to submit, and lose yourself in the process. (As one who too easily submitted to church leadership). Maybe it’s not possible to lose yourself in a marriage that lasts. I dunno.
Tom, a little aside. Does Laura still let you kill her spiders? I would not be the kind of wife who did.
KM
PS. My favorite wife submission story is that my former pastor “ordered” his wife not to yell during labor b/c it wouldn’t honor God, so she didn’t. (Even they laugh at that now.)
Along the same lines, when I was in 3rd grade I was helping my Dad and brothers with their baseball practice. My dad was hitting pop ups to my brothers and they would throw the ball back to me at the plate. I missed one and got 2 shiners for my trouble (and 2 weeks off school.) Right after I got hit I started to cry. My dad told me not to cry and so I stopped. I was so used to obeying him that I didn’t even question it. I just stopped crying.
Yep, I’m still her “Spider Man.” Ha, ha..what a hoot. I’m pretty sure she just enjoys playing weak and vulnerable, to make me feel strong and mighty. The funny things wives do for their husbands…..
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I think it’s really too bad that the only perspective we have on this situation with Jeremey is that of the media reporting his indictments. Obviously, it was something inappropriate enough to cause the law to get involved, so I’m not arguing that. On the other hand, many people have been leaving comments here that are implying that he is some kind of sicko child molestor or (gasp) homosexual. It seems like we are so used to judging people that we immediately think the worst of them. The details of what he did may never come to public knowledge, but to his credit he did readily admit his wrong but no mention was made of anything that would lead me to believe what some people are saying about him.
It’s not unheard of for a bunch of guys to get carried away with sexual jokes and humor and do something really ridiculous like going streaking in the woods. Had they all been 18 or older people would have said it was a harmless prank. Such antics in college are condoned and even expected. But because there were minors involved, and perhaps because he was in a place of “leadership” (a higher standard) he becomes liable for his inappropriate actions, and now everyone is ready to paint him an evil person. I think it would be wise to reserve judgment about his behavior and let the courts do that. I’d like to give him the benefit of the doubt – that he did something “stupid” and that it wasn’t an incident that would indicate some larger problem.
The sad thing is that Jeremey will most likely be ostracized by everyone who knows him, rather than receiving grace and help. That would be the worse tragedy.
Former,
That was my point. Thank you. I had found out about this about an hour before my original post. I was a tad upset, but the point I was making you made for me!! Thank You.
Yes we should not judge that is for the courts. However, here is a 30 year old man whom these children TRUSTED as their LEADER. How sad for these children who held him on a pedestal. We may never know what these “sexual truth or dare games” were. But he was a “christian man” in charge of these children, taking photos of them. Taking these kids to a place like Bagby hot springs (known for naked hottubing) is not a place christian children should be exposed to. I don’t believe picking a location like that to take children is just a “stupid” mistake, it makes it easier for a person like that to take advantage.
Yes “college kids” (not 30 year old men) do get carried away with silly games. But it usually doesn’t involve there professor.
I pray Jeremy will get the help he NEEDS. I pray for the chilren that unfortunatly are victims at the very least of circumstance. Lets hope he got caught before he went too far.(he already went too far)
I never said he was innocent, I was just saying we shouldn’t brand him as a child molester without the facts. Should he be in leadership? No, he blew it. But we shouldn’t jump to the conclusion that he is going to be a registered sex offender either.
What if I took my friend’s car and parked it around the block to play a prank on him – will my friend trust me with his keys any more? No, and rightly so. Should I be arrested for grand theft auto? Only if my “friend” wishes to pay me back by having me go to jail and forever be labeled as a criminal. Would my other friends assume that I will steal their car if I have the opportunity?
I realize the analogy isn’t perfect (children aren’t things), but I’m just saying we shouldn’t be ready to virtually lynch Jeremey because of something that may have been a youthful error. However, if he is convicted of a sex crime then God help him, because it is unlikely that CBC or New Song ever will.
I considered Jeremey a good friend of mine back when I attended CBC; however, we’ve since lost touch. Even as his friend, I cannot begin to try and justify the actions that may or may not have taken place. Simply going by what was reported in the Oregonian, he “confirmed the rumors†in reference to being naked at the hot springs and playing inappropriate games with two teenage boys who were under his leadership at New Song. Why or how a man of his age could feel comfortable in this situation with the teenage boys is beyond my comprehension! Yes, it was an extremely obvious lack in judgment, but it goes well beyond that.
I was stunned to learn that people I love and respect are actually sympathizing with Jeremey and feel HE was the victim!!! Although I will definitely be praying that he finds the help that he needs, I’m not even going to try and defend him just because we were friends or because we went to the same church! To worry about what this is going to do to the church’s reputation is ridiculous and this way of thinking shouldn’t even be a factor – it makes me sick to my stomach. Wrong is wrong, and it should be dealt with accordingly – bottom line. If I were the parent of a teenage boy and I found out that my young teenage son had gone on a naked trip to the Hot Springs with ANY older male I’d be very alarmed and equally upset, regardless of who that male was and whether or not any “touching†was involved. I don’t think that “skinny dipping” is a big deal, but the circumstances here make it an issue.
This doesn’t mean that I do not have the same love, care and concern for him as a friend, but at some point we need to take a step back and realize that HE NEEDS HELP. I feel anything short of that would just enable him to continue with his “lack in judgment†until the issue becomes a much greater problem! Defending him is not going to help him out in the long run. We all have problems, I’m not saying Jeremey is any worse than the next guy; we just need to recognize our weknesses and take the measures necessary to deal with them.
God help us all to not get so caught up in loyalty to our friends and church where we start defending and justifying the obvious faults and weaknesses of our brothers. Denial is harmful; remove the blinders, people!
old member: this is beside the point, but I wouldn’t call a 16 & 17 year old “children.”
Well, they are children under the law, which is why Jeremey is in trouble. If they were 18, there would be no indictment.
There would have been no indictment, but he would have still been kicked off leadership.
Last time I saw Jeremey, he was following Marc Estes around with premade packets for the droves of quick converters at Eternity productions. I remember thinking back then that I wish he didn’t want to be on their leadership team so much or to be like them…I wanted him to come into his own–not try to emulate someone else. There are so many people I know from PBC who tried way too hard to be accepted by leadership & be on staff. Perhaps if he had put as much energy into his personal life as he did into pleasing leadership, this might not have happened.
The whole situation is really sad. In my opinion, this is yet another example of what happens when you live in an environment where sex is a taboo subject. Look at what happens in the Catholic church. It’s unnatural, so unnatural outcomes occur. I’m not saying he didn’t have personal responsibility, but I do see the church as being a contributing factor.
–Karli
Karli,
One of the reasons why sex is a taboo subject in the typical traditional Church is connected with “image” issues.
If a Church wishes to maintain an image of respectability it dare not say much about sex to its parishoners. Discussions of sex can become messy. Some think masturbation is ok, others are convinced it is evil. Some think oral sex is ok, others think it is pure perversion. When was the last time you sat in a congregation of 4,000 and were allowed to participate in a discussion of these things?
How could a Church, that bases its existence on satisfying its constituency’s demand for “respectability,” possibly encourage open and safe discussions of these matters?
However, if Church were no longer a public image thing, in which our goal was to attract multitudes to our physical Church buildings, and extract billions of dollars from them, to fund our salaries, our programs, our mortgage debt, our advertising, our senior pastor self promotion as the great man of faith and power, then we might be willing to risk discussing such topics and actually help folks who struggle with real world issues.
Alas, so long as the IC reigns, image will reign. It’s always been the case, and I see nothing changing that. Unless of course, one establishes an IC Church on the order of the Bridge, whose moto is basically “Bust down every religious image we can,” it is unlikely we’ll see much change. But then, the Bridge still suffers under the frequent indictments of still maintaining the same basic hierarchical structure that just about any other IC maintains, with some variations.
In the end, sex is a very private matter. Generally it is something that a husband and wife will discuss, or parents with their children, or a good friend with another, but if we even HOPE to have gatherings of believers discuss such matters then it is almost a guarantee we are going to have to do it in small, intimate, safe, relational environments.
Which, by the way, is the basic model the early Church used. Hmmmm, maybe we have strayed from the approach to gathering that might have helped us come together and discuss such things and help people. How many marriages might have been helped had we been able to discuss this topic? How many young people would have less often drawn the conclusion that the Church is “Sooooo out of touch with my reality?” We might have actually helped more of them avoid teenage pregnancy, avoid STDs, avoid drug abuses, if Church gatherings were less image conscious, and more real world friendly, offering information for where they live.
Even in our little gathering, where we have been gathering for several years, we have NEVER had one discussion of this subject. You might ask “WHY?” The only answer I can give is that we are still getting freed up from the cultural conditioning of 2000+ years of, “Oh no, we never discuss those things in Church.” We’re still too embarrassed. We’re still too religious. We’re still too stuffy. Old false practices and false religious puritanical nonsense die slowly.
I have to disagree with your conclusion, Karli, I just don’t see what his involvement and interest in church has to do with this. If he hadn’t attended church at all, what would you then blame it on? I was friends with Jeremey and can assure you that sex was not a “taboo” subject to him personally. This is about an individual who has a problem and needs to get help.
Imagine what his life may have been like if he hadn’t been involved in church… could it be that just maybe the influence his church and church leaders/friends may have actually kept him from manifesting this weakness on a much larger scale? We’ll never know, but it seems you’re really taking this situation out of context. Yeah, the church has “issues”, but we are all born of a sinful nature.
He’s an adult, so it was up to him whether he wanted to put his energy into his personal life or into pleasing leadership, am I right? I believe that’s a choice we all have to make – are we going to be responsible for ourselves or are we going to use the church (or other organization, person, thing, etc.) as a crutch whenever we find ourselves in trouble? We are not simply victims of our environment, we are sinful beings who are responsible to handle our own sh$t – plain & simple. Some will choose to look to God for direction, some will choose other sources of help – either way it’s a CHOICE!
Churchgirl,
I tend to agree with Karli. To use an example of a person who is abused as a child. They tend to grow up and abuse as well. While you have to hold the second generation abuser accountable. The core reason is obviouse, the first generation abuser played a key role in the formation of the second generations behavior.
The reason for something and whose responsable are to differant things.
I would probably go as far as to say that Jeremy learned from his leaders that people (followers) are assets to be used as you see fit. Essentially what is the difference between haveing someone run personal errands (getting coffee, drycleaning or picking up your kids) and them doing sexual errands. Neither one has anything to do with serving God’s kingdom, rather with serving man.
I feel for Jeremy and wouldn’t mind having a cup of coffee with him to tell him I am praying for him. But I wouldn’t let him within a 1/4 mile of my kids. That is not a lack of forgiveness, grace or love. That is watching out for my childeren best interests. Ironiccally I wouldn’t let my childeren within a 1/4 mile of that complex on the butte or any of it’s satellite complexes. For the same reasons
I agree with you to an extend, I’m just saying when do we draw the line and stop blaming everything that we’ve been through, associations we’ve had, etc. for our own short-comings? It was HIS choice to attend BT, HIS choice to seek approval from leadership just as it was HIS choice to take that trip to the Hot Springs.
I love Jeremey and hope he gets the help he needs, I just have a hard time understanding why some of the bloggers are attributing this very unfortunate, painful situation that he’s going through to his time at BT. Jeremey was an adult when he started going to BT, not a child. I think that’s a pretty big factor in all of this. As adults don’t we have the responsibility to make wise decisions for ourselves? He chose to be involved in the BT community and ultimately, the effects the church had on him, whether negative or positive, can be attributed to his own decision-making ability.
I went to BT for several years, even graduated from TCHS. I agree, there were some pretty messed up things that went on. One situation in particular ultimately drove me to leave the church and as screwed up that situation was, it was still my decision to give those people too much control over my life. I don’t blame the church for me having to go through it, and if I had stayed and continued to let them control my actions and decisions it would have been my own fault.
It’s almost like we’re giving the church too much credit. Are we supposed to just live our lives blaming this and that for our own problems? How could you be a confident human being if you felt that everything you do is because of someone else or a specific organization?
That’s so…. disgustingly weak it’s embarassing!
I’ve seen this over and over with “church people”. I don’t think that’s “serving the Lord”, I think that’s just using Him as a crutch. We can be “influenced” by outside factors, but ultimately what we do is our own decision!
If the tables were turned and this blog post was about Jeremey’s successes I can assure you we wouldn’t be attributing THAT to BT, am I right?
Oops, I meant “those”. I can assure you we wouldn’t be attributing THOSE to BT, not THAT.
I think I’ll chip in my two cents for what its worth. I knew Jeremy personally and though he may have been weird and strange to some people, I firmly believe that he wanted to do what was right. I believe that he wanted to serve God with his whole heart. Did he get sucked in to an organization that helped him with his weaknesses? I don’t know. I can’t answer that question, but I am not going to blame all of his faults on CBC.
I believe the purpose of this blog has been to point out things that are wrong and try to get people to see the error of their ways and I think they’ve strayed from that with this shellacking of Jeremy’s character. I believe if you go back to biblical precedent I think you’ll see a different side then what we typically do in the church in regards to sexual problems. How does the church normally handle situations like this? Typically they are ostracized from the church because you know everyone already thinks they are guilty, even though they have not been proven guilty. Even if he is guilty, is the thing to do to shun him and take him out in the public for a verbal “stoning?” In the situation with Jesus and the woman caught in adultery, He said “he who is without sin, cast the first stone.” Then Jesus said “Woman where are they? Has no one condemed you? She replied “No one, sir.” Then Jesus said, Then neither do I condemn you, go now and leave your life of sin.” The “law” in their day said they needed to stone her. What did Jesus do? He said I’m not going to condemn you to a life of death, I’m going to forgive you and let you go on living your life, just leave your life of sin.
Is the correct thing in this situation to leave him all alone by himself? No the correct thing to do is to stand beside him, forgive him and support him so the truth wins out. If he is guilty then the laws of the land will serve justice, but for us we have to forgive and seek restoration of someone who is obviously hurting and confused.
Mr. Prez,
Just to clarify, if you’ve read my comments you’ll see that I’m not “shellacking Jeremey’s character” at all (and where the hell did you come up with that term… who says “shellack”???). Again, he was a very good friend of mine. As I recall, he confirmed the allegations I was referring to.
My point was that I’m sick and tired of certain bloggers jumping on every opportunity to blame BT or CBC for anything and everything that might go wrong for anyone who had any type of association with the church. I was simply trying to remind a certain blogger that we are all responsible for our own actions, regardless of what church we go to or how we may or may not have been overly interested in serving the leadership. I just don’t see how this very unfortunate situation Jeremey has gotten himself into has anything to do with “City Bible’s Fruit”. That’s just completely unfair and ridiculous!
I’m pretty sure you’d agree, right?
Uh, all us geezers say “shellack”, CG – you know, like we talked during the prohibition … we also say “23 skidoo”, “tippy canoe and tyler too”, “like 60″, though prefer the more mdern terms like “groovy” and “far out” …
When criticising this blog, members of City Bible frequently use the phrase, “You are known by your fruit.”
However, I think it was Jiminy Crickett who pointed out about a year ago that most of us went to City Bible and thus this blog is product of City Bible. We are in essence City Bible’s fruit.
I thought this was a great observation. And I like to use the phrase facetiously, whenever someone who goes to CBC, screws up. (yes, yes immaturity and all that…)
So no. I don’t blame City Bible for Jeremey’s faults. But he is partially a product of their ministry. He is a one of their “bruised fruit”, if you will.
I’ll give you that much, but I CANNOT believe you just said “bruised fruit”…
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LMAO
I’m no “geezer” (yet), but I say shellack all the time.
Saying shellack MAKES you a GEEZER, Bloggy.
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Do you also use words like “shazaam”, “jalopy” and “shenannigan”
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Hey, ChurchGirl, you remember that retreat we went on to Rockaway Beach back in the day: the group sitting in a circle playing that stupid “pass the candle and say a nice thing about someone else” game? You remember good ol’ “hairy scary” staring at us from across the circle?
That was being visually shellacked. I rest my case: sometimes there’s a need for such a word.
Who IS this???
Shellacked is to Geezer, what Gakked is to Nick Kids.
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You’re freakin’ me out, man! Did you wash dishes with me afterwards where we proceeded to discuss the horrific “visual shellacking”? Thanks for the reminder by the way, I’m now having nightmares!
You’ve obviously got the wrong person… so are you who I think you are?
I don’t do dishes. Ever. But if I remember correctly, I believe you and I drove back to Portland early.
My memory is slightly foggy… did we ride there together too and maybe you were dating one of my best friends? And we left early because we wanted to get back to town to see our then-significant others? You MIGHT have me mixed up with someone else, but I do admit I was there for the rather unfortunate “unveiling”. And are you 100% sure about the dishes? You didn’t at least help dry them???
Though I don’t remember the dishes part–maybe I blacked it out (strangely, however, since I still remember hairy scarey)–I am who you think I am.
Men have a tendency to block out those kinds of traumatic experiences, Bloggy …
‘Srupe
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Well then hey, how’s it going? It’s been a really long time and I miss you guys!
Dishes… oh my god. Right up there with laundry. Nice to chat with you, ChurchGirl, right here with the whole world now knowing that I hate doing dishes. Get in touch with my wife if you can… she misses you. Maybe you guys can come over to our crib for dinner sometime?
Well, since it’s been about a zillion cell phones ago since I last saw you guys I no longer have your digits! I’ll see if I can’t track down a mutual friend to get her number and give her a call. I’m sure this is long over-due, but congratulations on the little one!
One last question, how the heck did you know this was me??? Do I even WANT to know? So much for anonymity, now I’m just a little embarassed…
The CBC Blog is just a front for a huge spamming operation. Everyone’s personal information is for sale, at the right price. Bloggy just ponied up a tithe for your info.
(just kidding, of course).
Good to know!
Considering how much spam I delete every day; that might be true. Spam is gonna be the death of this blog, I swear.
Well, there’s no shortage of people selling miracle pills, is there Justin? Makes me wonder if every time one of the presidents say their administration has created thousands of new jobs, if they are they talking about internet vendors and spammers selling viagra, levitra and enzyte. And ALL of them have your address.
LMAO Wow, this is good stuff… there’s nothing like being outed on your own website!!!
Justin, I’m sorry … I didn’t mean to … oh boy …
Anyone who follows this plog as pathetically–er, I mean, as intently–as I do will find it’s not hard to figure people out sooner or later. You get someone talking long enough and nine times out of ten they’ll expose themselves. (Wait, that last sentence could be misconstrued pretty easily…)
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I understand that “Exposures” was what started this whole thing.
…and we’ve come full-circle.
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That would be a panoramic exposure.