This website is a parody of City Bible Church. We are not owned or operated by Frank Damazio or affiliated with City Bible Church. Please do not send us your tithe.
It is not by grace that one enters the kingdom of heaven, but by tithing.

- Damazio 3:16


Archive for November, 2006

Dave & Johnpaul Visit Statements

Posted on November 17th, 2006 by Reformed Pope into the About Us category

  I wrote this story for the family of my good friend David Andrew who passed away a short time ago. It's a rather funny and true story so I thought I would share it with you all. It has nothing to do with Religion whatsoever, but sometimes it's good to take a break.

Statements, is a wonderful tile and stone dealer out of Seattle, WA. This story has very little to do with our time at Statements but if I titled the story properly it would ruin the embarrassing fun. So, with that in mind, we begin.

Dave & I where headed up to Seattle for a carpet show put on by Shaw Industries. Dave loved details so I'll tell you that it was held at Qwest Field. The Seattle Seahawks, who play at Qwest Field, where scheduled to play in the Superbowl later the next week. As you can imagine, the stadium was full of excitement and energy, in fact the entire city seemed on edge.

Since we were going to be in Seattle, Dave decided that it would be a good time for us to meet with Steve, the owner of Statements. Statements was a new tile company to us and we wanted to get to know them a little better.  Steve took us around his showroom, gave us wonderful wine, and took us out for a fabulous meal. There's a story all to itself there, but since I do NOT like details I'll skip ahead.

After dinner, Dave & I said goodbye to Steve and headed back to Portland. For some reason (which I can not remember at this point) we had decided it would be best to take my car on the trip, but to let Dave drive. We did and he did.

It's a fairly long drive from Seattle to Portland and I was thirsty; we stopped off at a convenience store and I loaded up with water bottles and energy drinks. Once back on the highway conversation turned to our evening. Steve had made quite an impression on the both of us and we spent most of the trip back talking about him and our dinner. Eventually, we ran out of things to say (after all we were both straight and happily married, there are only so many things you can say about another man before some of that comes into question) so the conversation began to turn towards Dave's sickness.

Now, before I can continue the story there are a few things you should know about me. First, I have a slight problem with anxiety that occasionally causes me to pass out (faint really).  Second, it's really more than a "slight" problem, I really need psychiatric help. Third, when I pass out I tend to convulse, just a little (or so I'm told). Everyone thinks this is funny when they hear about it, but if you see it… well, lets just say I scare people.

I usually pass out when I'm around blood, pain, doctors, other people passing out, or any other type of situation that makes me nervous. This is something I have done all my life. I have also been known to pass out from just hearing about blood, pain, doctors….

Dave was fully aware of my condition.

So, as I was saying, the conversation began to turn towards Dave's sickness. Doctors are doing this… doctors are doing that… blood is being drawn… trouble finding the vein… My heart began to race. At this point I knew I was moments away from passing out, quickly I rolled down my window and stuck my head out for fresh air. Dave, recognizing that I was feeling sick, changed the subject right back to dinner with Steve. It wasn't working. I pushed my seat all the way back, laid down and tried to breathe. Grabbing a water bottle, I felt that I might just make it throu….

Then I woke up.

The car was on the side of the road, Dave looked like he had seen a ghost and we had just arrived in Portland.

"Water, juice, quickly" I mumbled as Dave headed off for the nearest store. When we pulled into a gas station parking lot I began to fell a little better. I even mentioned to Dave that I was surprised how badly I needed something to drink. I clearly remember saying to him "Dave, I don't know if I this is inappropriate, but I swear, I nearly pee'd my pants back there. I have to go to the bathroom so bad."

Dave jumped out of the car and ran into the store for juice. I stayed seated and practiced my breathing. When Dave returned he just handed me the bottles, sat down, and stared out the window. I really think I spooked him. "I told you nobody thinks it's funny once they see it happen" I say. Dave doesn't respond.

We got back on the road and headed towards Surface to drop Dave off at his car. It was probably 11:30pm at this point. As we cruised down the highway I realized that my pants did feel a little wet. "No, I thought, it's probably just sweat". Reaching my hand slowly down towards my pants I felt around. Sure enough, pee. All over. Quite disgusting really.

I was in no mood to discuss this with Dave. I realized it would be funny later on, but at that point I just wanted to go home and get a shower. Reaching Surface, Dave says "Do you need me to drive you home"? "No", I quickly respond, "I think I'll be fine".

I wait until he gets out of the car before I open my door. Carefully rising to my feet and stepping outside I suddenly feel a stream of wet heat roll down my leg. Looking back at my seat I notice a large wet stain right in the center of my chair. I grab a plastic bag and quickly cover the spot, realizing that if Dave sees that I pee'd my car he might not ever drive with me again.

"Good night, Dave. I'll see you in the morning" I yell, darting around to the driver's side, wrapping my coat around my waist, and quickly climbing in. I took the back roads home that night, figuring that if I were to pass out again it would be better if I weren't on the freeway. As I reached my house I noticed someone flashing they're lights at me. "Great" I think, "It's the pee police" (at this point, I'm starting to see the humor of the situation). As I drive up closer I realize that it is actually Dave. He had wanted to make sure that I made it home ok.

Surface is 5 minutes from his house, it was midnight, and he drove 20 minutes out of the way just to make sure I was ok. He was such a good friend to me, but I believe he would have done that for anybody.

He never once mentioned the incident to me. I tried bringing it up so he would know it's ok to laugh about and he just brushed it all aside and changed the conversation. Maybe the whole thing really freaked him out, maybe he was too embarrassed by the situation, and maybe he just wanted to be a nice guy.

Regardless, I believe all funny stories deserve to be told, so that was Dave and Johnpaul's trip to Statements (or more appropriately titled The Day I Wet My Car).

The 5 stages that make this worthwhile

Posted on November 16th, 2006 by Reformed Pope into the Why We Blog category

After nearly 2 years of blogging some of us have noticed a certain trend in the comments left by CBC supporters. IT seems as though they all go through the same 5 stages of commenting. Here is a list, sent in by WTFWJD. It would probably save them all time and stress if they just knew we enjoyed messing with them.

1. Denial
"I can't believe this site exists, how could ANYONE possibly have a a problem with CBC, et. al.. I wonder if you guys are even REAL Christians."
 
2. Anger
"You guys suck.  You are just bitter.  You're going to hell."
 
3. Bargaining
"Well, maybe they do some bad things, but at least they don't kill babies."  Or: "If you're so perfect, YOU try claiming you're perfect and then living up to it."
 
4. Depression (also known as Disorganization)
Irrational circular logic and straw-man arguments. "If they don't do it, who will?" "I can't belive I'm even posting here. Don't you people have Jobs?"
 
5. Acceptance
"Since I'm so correct, I'm leaving and never coming back.  Enjoy Hell."

Excellent work, WTFWJD, it's readers like you who make this blog worth returning to.

Miracle Seed; Miracle Harvest II

Posted on November 16th, 2006 by catalyst into the City Boobie Church category

I just finished listening to the latest Faith Harvest sermon and since I can't break it down as well as JP, I'm just going to share some of the highlights. Basically, what I learned about Faith Harvest.

Sermon Highlights 

-Frank starts off telling the congregation he's going to teach us how to give? (This is good. Because I was home-schooled. So I'm excited to find out about this "giving" concept. )

-I really want to be a great giver. (Frank told me tell someone; so I'm telling you.)

-The sin of stinginess is keeping me from being a great giver. (This is actually true.)

-God wants us to be liberal and generous people. (Unless, of course, that liberalism involves supporting Gay Marriage. )

-God isn't El-Cheapo. He's El-Shadhai; the Great Provider. Frank claims some people see God as El-Cheapo. (This is called a strawman argument. State a false position and then knock it down. The point is, I don't know anyone who thinks of God as El-Cheapo. Seriously, I've never head that in my life before.)

-When you serve God your life will get better. (Unless your name is Job from the Bible.)

-Frank tells the congregation, "You're a special person." (So, I've been told. Thank you.)

-Frank and Sharon started giving to the poor 30 years ago. Before they new the scriptures that said you should give to the poor. He believes in giving to the poor because it means God will bless you. He sounds truly impressed with himself. As though, this is something special. (Yeah Frank, it's called empathy.)

-Frank gives examples of how he and his wife helped people. They used to pick out a single mother, not a single father, to bless. According to Frank, the single fathers can take care of themselves. (I apologize to everyone for my language, but what an asshole.)

-He doesn't like talking to people about their offerings. (Then please explain your 14 week tithing sermon marathon that drove half the congregation away.)

-Sometimes your seed it tested. It doesn't always just work automatic. But if you keep sowing your seed. It will eventually happen. (Snort. I think he means, Keep giving me money, even if you remain poor. God will eventually bless you.)

-Kevin Federline is from Pendleton Oregon. (I didn't actually hear this from Frank. But at about this point in the sermon I got bored and started cruising through Perez Hilton and found out that K-Fed grew up in Pendleton. Amazing. I did not know this. But seriously, this explains a lot.)

-Jonny Appleseed is like the Messiah. (Frank actually did say this.)

-Frank puts a dollar amount on Faith, Great Faith and Miracle Faith. A Faith Goal is $650,000. A Great Faith goal is beyond $650,000. A Miracle Faith Goal is a million dollars. (I almost admire him at this point. He clearly doesn't care what the Bible says. He's just making it up as he goes along. )

My conclusion: You know what, if you're dumb enough to believe this, then you deserve to lose your money. Read the Book of Job people. Seriously, read the Book of Job.

Update

FICM gives us a quick illustration of what Miracle Faith and One Million Dollars might look like:

onemilliondollarsyl0.jpg

"ONE MILL-YEE-YUN DOLL-ARSSSSSSSSS!"

Top 10 Church Website Mistakes

Posted on November 15th, 2006 by catalyst into the Biblical Parody category

This is an old blog post, but kind of funny. As written by Tony Morgan from Granger Community Church, here are the Top 10 Ways to Keep me from Visiting your Church, because I Visited your Website:

  1. Avoid telling me what's going to happen at your church this weekend. I found churches that had weather reports but nothing about their upcoming weekend service. I found two churches that had prominent information about upcoming golf scrambles (which I appreciated as a golfer), but nothing about this weekend's service. Why would I come if I don't know what I'm going to experience?
  2. Put a picture of your building on the main page. After all, ministry is all about the buildings.
  3. Use lots of purple and pink and add pictures of flowers. Really. Are you expecting any men to show up? And, for my benefit, please don't put any doves on your website. Doves scare me.
  4. Make me click a "skip intro" or "enter site" link. I don't have time for that and it's very annoying. If I have to wait for something to load or have to click around intro pages to get to the real information, I'm probably going to skip your church service.
  5. Add as many pictures and graphics as you can to the main page. My life is already complicated. I don't have time to figure out what's important at your church. If you dump everything on the main page, I'm assuming you don't know what's important either.
  6. Use amateur photography. And, for the record, it would be helpful to have at least one normal looking person on your site. Do us all a favor and hire a graphic designer, a professional photographer or purchase some stock photography.
  7. List every single ministry you have at your church. Frankly, I don't care what ministries you have. I just want to know whether or not I should visit your church this weekend. My first step isn't the men's Bible study or joining your church's prayer partners ministry.
  8. Make it as difficult as possible for me to get directions, services times, or find information about what will happen with my kids. It's important that my kids have a great experience. If you can't convince me that that will happen, I'm probably not going to risk visiting your service.
  9. Put a picture of your pastor with his wife on the main page. That tells me it's all about a personality, and I see enough of those people on television. I actually found one church that had not one but two pictures of the senior pastor on the main page. He was looking mighty dapper, though, in his fancy suit.
  10. Try to sell your church rather than telling me how I will benefit from the experience. I don't care how great your church is. I just want to know if visiting your church will help me and my unchurched friends take our next steps toward Christ.

Thankfully, City Business Church (the blog) has neither a pastor nor a building. So we're doing okay for know.

The Church as Business

Posted on November 14th, 2006 by catalyst into the City Boobie Church category

I am not one of those who actually thinks that JP and I are the first to stumble across the idea of churches being run like a business. I just think we are the only ones willing to devote several hours a day to mocking churches that are run like a business. (I assume other people have real lives to live.)

Thus in a recent search, I stumbled across this article from the Economist written in January of this year that investigates the super-fantastic- mega-church Willow-Creek.

There is no shortage of criticisms of these fast-growing churches. One is that they represent the Disneyfication of religion. Forget about the agony and ecstasy of faith. Willow Creek and its sort are said to serve up nothing more challenging than Christianity Lite— a bland and sanitised creed that is about as dramatic as the average shopping mall.

Another criticism is that these churches are not really in the religion business but in the self-help trade. Mr Osteen and his equivalents preach reassuring sermons to “victors not victims”, who can learn to be “rich, healthy and trouble free”. God, after all, “wants you to achieve your personal best”. The result is a wash: rather than making America more Christian, the mega-churches have simply succeeded in making Christianity more American.

Moreover, it is a wash that is extraordinary good for the pastorpreneurs themselves, who prosper by preaching the gospel of prosperity. The wonderfully named Creflo Dollar, chief pastor of World Changers Church International in Georgia, drives a Rolls-Royce and travels in a Gulfstream jet. Joyce Meyer, who promises that God rewards people with his blessings, counts among her own blessings a $2m home and a $10m jet.

The article also defends mega-churches. But I find it interesting that they defend mega-churches from a business stance, not a Jesus-stance.

Speaking Out

Posted on November 13th, 2006 by catalyst into the Comments From Others category

Recently, two former Portland Bible College professors (David Mackin and Tom Sparks) came onto the blog and spoke out against what is being preached at City Bible Church. I do not know who these two men are, but evidently they have a long and storied past with City Bible Church. Here is Tom's story:  

First, let me begin by expressing my apology to all of you. I so desperately wanted to be valued and feel significant, that without realizing it I sold my soul to CBC and PBC, so as to have the ministry I so much wanted. There is no question I also wanted it because I truly believed the Lord wanted me in the role of both elder and teacher and I wanted to please Him in all I did. In the end…mixture.

As time went by, and especially after becoming an elder, I began to realize how seriously wrong many elements of the theology and practice CBC was committed to. For a long while I did all I could to navigate around Dick Iverson’s requirements for all of the elders to publicly support his beliefs and still be true to the things God was showing me. It ultimately turned out to be a dance of death for my son Tyler. Religious hypocrsy and addictions don’t just affect the minister. They pollute his family as well, and of course the congregation too.

I owe my son Tyler, and all my students, and fellow congregants a deep apology for needing to be needed, and not dropping out of the leadership and off the staff of PBC long before I did.

When Tyler decided he could no longer stand the hypocrisy of it all, and felt the only way he could express his disapproval was through experimenting with drugs, and other dangerous behaviors, all I could do was negatively react to him and increase the pressure. The more pressure the greater the distance, and soon his life was spinning completely out of control.

For so many years previous, I had put pressure on my family to “look the part,” of a godly elders family, so that the ministry of God in my life would have the opportunity to bless the congregation. Pardon me while I pause to hold back throwing up at this point in my narrative. In other words, my attitudes had nothing to do with protecting godliness, and had everything to do with religious addictions and the need to be needed.

Unfortunately for Tyler, and to some degree my daughters as well, this phoniness pushed them away from God and towards unhealthy things. In time, and continued waywardness, Tyler made choices that hurt him more deeply. I deeply regret his choices, especially as they were reactions to my religious addictions, even though I know he was ultimately responsible for his own choices. I can’t help but feel I share in part of those choices.

Listen folks, since 150 AD, or said in another way, just after the death of the apostles, the Church detoured from the simplicity of loving Jesus and each other, and turned it into power struggles, religious politics, pursuits of money, and developed one doctrine of man after another. The very thing Jesus warned of. Religiosity, religious addictions, and the evil pursuits of man’s agenda stamped with Jesus’ name, became normative for the Church.

Fallen man has a huge difficulty recognizing his inherent tendency towards the very insecurities Adam and Eve felt, the day Jesus asked them why they were hiding among the bushes. When we fail to own these insecurities, then we pursue sinful methods of resolving those insecurities, and when we do so in the context of the Church, then we develop religious practices and doctrines that marginalize Jesus and make room for the traditions of the elders.

I was a part of this, and I’m sure, to one degree or another still am. Religious hypocrisy is far easier to spot in someone else’s life than in our own. I’m suspicious I still embrace more than I’m aware of. To the degree any of us are we hurt the body of Christ, and we develop concepts of Church that end up abusing the Lord’s flock. What a tragedy!

So, when Tyler’s past caught up to him, even though he had been living with us again, and had cleaned up his life and ways, he had thought an issue he faced with the authorities was history, but when it turned out not to be so, and the fear of the potentials of repercussions from the law overwhelmed him, coupled with years of Meth abuse, and he over reacted and took his life before anyone could help him process his fears and walk it through to completion. In all likelihood it would not have gone as badly as he suspected, but Meth had burned out his capacity to reason solidly and he took his life.

He had been such a blessing in our home, for the last two years he spent with us. His childlike nature had returned. We had great times around the property, and he appeared poised for life success. Obviously the enemy of his soul had other plans, and Tyler wasn’t quite ready to fend him off, and we didn’t even get 24 hours to help him make better decisions.

So, why do I tell all of you this? Because to one degree or another Tyler’s death is a microcosmic evidence of the serious dangers of religious hypocrisy, as manifested in my life, and the life of historical Christianity.

Before you rush to console and balance me out, I want you all to know I have received the grace of God, for my errors, but receiving His grace and forgiveness don’t instantly remove all the pain, and to be honest with you I’m glad they don’t. It is just too important that I never forget the seriousness of the errors that my brethren at CBC still embrace, promote, and believe in.

When you challenge them regarding their hypocrisy, while right now they know only to reject your challenges, one day these challenges will be an abiding testimony of God’s love to reach out to them, warn them, and warn all others connected with their errors.

George Barna sees it. Some 50 million American believers have seen it, and have left the institutional Church. Our European brethren are emerging from it all, and around the world small simple Church is happening again. We have a long ways to go, but the journey is essential if Jesus is to be honored as the rightful Head of His Church, in replacement of the false “One man shows,” known as Pope’s and Senior Pastors.

We dont need specialized buildings, professional clergy, control oriented hierarchical leadership, pulpits, pews, and stained glass. We need one thing, and that thing is a Person. When believers come out of these false systems and return to simple worship of Jesus, simple love for the brethren, care for the lost, poor, and disenfranchised of this world, then the world will see the true Church again.

The brother who identifies himself as the “Former inner circle member,” is wise to challenge me about my current beliefs as regards the principle of tithing. My beliefs may still be errant. I continue to pray deeply about this matter. I think if he reads my article carefully he will be a bit less concerned, but perhaps not. In the final summation of that subject all I really believe is that everything we have we have received from Jesus, and Jesus loves folks, and He will guide us to share the things He gives us with those He loves, whether they are fellow believers, our ministering teachers, the poor, the widows, and the orphans. It’s no more complicated than that. This is what my article is all about, and this is where I’m living.

We currently receive no monthly ministry income from anyone, and I discourage those I gather with from doing such for me. I’m no longer Bro Tom, or Pastor Tom, or Elder Tom. I’m just Tom. I don’t want anything else.

As God leads me to travel to different nations then I let those trips, and the needs connected with those trips, be known among those who are close to me, and if they sense a leading to assist with expenses then that is received.

We’re all on a journey folks, and truth is gained slowly, and error goes painfully. I want to embrace the cross and and let it have its full work in my life, and I still have a long journey ahead in that area.

I hope this blogging has not been too wordy, and I hope it helps some.

I pray God delivers all the saints who have been polluted by the garbage I have now recognized and turned from. As for my brethren who are still in leadership at CBC…God bless them! They are good men and women. I truly believe this. Including Dick Iverson and Frank Damazio. I think they adhere to many things I now believe are error, and I pray they awaken to this one day, but I refuse to castigate them as evil men. If there are evil things at work within them I don’t know of it. I experienced some wounding from them, but I hold no malice against them for it.

Listen folks, error gets woven into the fabric of our beings in such a way that we can end up doing heiness things and believe we are doing God a favor. Look at what Paul did to the Church before he met Jesus on the road to Damascus. The same is true of these men. It has been true of me. It is the story of religious history. To whatever degree I have been delivered, praise His name. I want the same thing for them. They are deceived and are deceiving others, but I would be very hesitant to believe that it is intentional. It is ugly, it is hypocritical in many manifestations, but religious bigotry is not an easy matter to deal with in our own lives.

As for Ted Haggard…he is now on a journey of self awareness that will blow his mind. I pray he lets Jesus do an inside job that blows his mind. He needs our prayer support if he is going to get disentangled from the garbage that has polluted his belief system.

Enough for now. God bless you as you struggle with getting free from the errors of man. I’m still in my journey as well.

Tom

Needed: Pastor with Business Savvy

Posted on November 13th, 2006 by catalyst into the Uncategorized category

Well look at this. Two articles in the same week discussing how churches are run like a business. Quick! Someone do a google search and tell me if there's a blog out there that talks about this issue.

Here's a revealing section:

Similar vast corporate church operations are on the rise. The largest congregations — those with memberships in the thousands and budgets in the millions — operate like Church Inc.

They embrace the business side of religion, often recruiting staff with corporate experience and adopting business world methods — hiring consultants, starting endowments and taking tithes electronically — as they try to meet the challenge of handling God's business with accounting savvy but also spiritual integrity.

If I read this correctly, mega church pastors are endowed with spiritual integrity; while the rest of us have to get by on plain old ordinary integrity. And if past examples are any indicator, I do believe spiritual integrity means taking it up the *** from a male prostitute and doing Crystal Meth. … …. so for now, I think I'll just stick with my regular ordinary integrity. You don't necessarily get to pastor a mega church, but you do get to stay faithful to your wife and your church.

Megachurch Pastors

Posted on November 10th, 2006 by catalyst into the Uncategorized category

There's an excellent article in today's Boston Herald that discusses the perils of Megachurch Pastors.

  “When you get to these top 25 or 50 of the largest or most influential churches, these pastors are clearly celebrities. They were the founders, they created much of the growth and they are, in some sense, a brand in and of themselves,” said Scott Thumma, a professor at Hartford Seminary in Connecticut, who specializes in studying megachurches. “It’s just like a business where the name of the founder is, in fact, a trademark.”

Sort of like a Business Church, huh Scott. And if the megachurch was in a city maybe you'd call it a City Business Church?

The article also offers this insight into the Ted Haggard situation and holding Megachurch pastors accountable.  

New Life’s reaction was swift - yet most megachurches don’t have such effective oversight. Many have boards stacked with relatives, friends, personal lawyers and hangers-on who wouldn’t dare contradict the pastor, said Bill Martin, a Rice University expert on evangelicals.

 “The pitfall with the megachurches, the personality driven churches, is it’s so easy for a person to consider him- or herself above accountability,” Martin said. “If that accountability is absent or reduced, then trouble is on the way.”

…hmmmm… if only someone would start a blog that attempted to hold certain mega-church pastors accountable. I wonder what people would say… …oh that's right. We know what they would say.

"You're bitter. Stop questioning the church."

Is this what Jesus would do?

Posted on November 9th, 2006 by catalyst into the Uncategorized category

Here's a comment from one of our readers that I felt deserved its own post.

I just got some fascinating news last night…thought you might get a kick out of it in light of City Church's new digs in Washington DC….perhaps they are needing to cut costs to pay for their 'house'…

City Church called CLF last night and told them that they would no longer be allowed to pick up food from their distribution center for their "Lord's Pantry" ministry where they provide food for the poor in Grays Harbor…They told the fella who runs the ministry that what CLF did to poor "Dougy' was an abomination, and so they didn't want to have anything to do with CLF.  They also told the fella, who attends CLF, that if he wanted to move to another building that City Church would provide in Aberdeen, that they could still pick up food.  He confirmed, "You mean I have to leave my church for you to allow me to get food to feed the poor?"

"Yep"….:o)

City Church spends 1.4 Million on Row House in DC.

Posted on November 8th, 2006 by catalyst into the The City Church category

 citychurchdc.jpg

According to the Capitol Hill Property Sales Database, on September 18, 2006 the City Church purchased this Capitol Hill row house on the left for 1.4 million dollars.  (I apologize for the grainy picture, my cellphone isn't that great).

One and a half million dollars seems like a lot of money for a church in Seattle, Washington to spend on a church/home in DC. Especially, when there are literally hundreds of churches already on Capitol Hill. (I know because I live on Capitol Hill, and I pass several of them every weekend on my way to the bar.)

You'll also be interested to know that Frank "Give til it Hurts" Damazio is on the leadership team of this church, along with Wendell Smith. So next time you CBC'ers and City Churchers write that tithe/Faith Harvest check, remember you're not feeding the hungry, you're not clothing the poor, you're buying a House in DC.

But then, helping people isn't Wendell's vision.

The Vision of the new church is to influence the nations of the earth from our nation's Capitol.

That makes sense. I mean who has time to help the poor and the lost, when you're trying to influence nations.