Homophobia
Posted on December 4th, 2006 by catalyst into the City Boobie Church categoryDavid Mackin leaves an interesting comment discussing Homophobia. The comment is specifically about Bible Temple, but it likely applies to other churches, as well.
Homophobia in Bible Temple:
Around 1984 while still on staff at PBC, I met a brother named James (name changed). James was a Christian brother who had struggled with homosexuality for many years. James told me that he went to Dick Iverson, the sr. pastor of Bible Temple, and asked him if the local church would sponsor a support group for Christian men who struggled with sexual attraction to other men. James told me that Dick Iverson said that there was no way that Bible Temple would sponsor such a group. According to James, Dick said that he would not want a bunch of men who were struggling with homosexuality to be in the same room with each other lest they start lusting after each other. This decision by Dick so hurt and disappointed James that he left Bible Temple, and, as far as I know, went back to his homosexuality.
A Support Group that Heals Homosexuals:
Just the other day, a Christian psychologist (whom I will call Dr. Tom) told me that he used to lead a Christian men’s group composed of both homosexually-struggling and heterosexual men. He explained that such a mixed group was highly unusual because the male attendees would normally feel threatened, but not in this group. Dr. Tom shared how he encouraged all of the men to hug one another whether they were struggling with their heterosexual identity or not. When I asked him why, Dr. Tom said that those who were struggling so much with homosexual tendencies needed to have other men give them sincere, affectionate but non-sexual hugs since they were only used to the touches of other men being of a sexual nature. Dr. Tom shared that this group saw many, many men turn away from homosexuality, get married and lead normal family lives.
How Bible Temple’s Controlling Spirit Hurt its own Struggling Church Members:
About the same time as meeting James (above), I was visiting with Phil Hobizal, former director of the Portland Fellowship, an Exodus International, Inc. ministry which counsels struggling homosexuals and lesbians. Phil told me that Bible Temple (now City Bible Church) had some church members who were struggling with homosexual issues, but that they would not refer them to the Portland Fellowship for counseling unless Bible Temple leadership had full access to each one of their church members’ counseling files! Phil had to tell them that he could not do that because it was unethical (and probably illegal). As a result, Bible Temple leaders would not refer their own sexually struggling members to a place that specialized in the healing of homosexuals.
Jesus Rebukes the Over-controlling, Uncaring Spirit of Religion:
In my view, we have a doubly sad and abusive state of affairs here: not only would Bible Temple not host a support group for its own church members who were struggling with homosexuality, they also refused to refer their members out to the Portland Fellowship because its director would not violate the privacy of his counselees by giving Bible Temple full access to their church members’ files! Such a situation reminds me of the words that Jesus says to the pastors of His day: “”Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering” (Luke 11:52, NIV). The spirit of “control-over” is a familiar part of the demonics behind human Relgion. Such leaders, when they see that they will not be in total control, would rather allow hurting people to continue in their wounded ways than to assist them in getting the genuine help they need. I don’t think such actions reflect those of Jesus. (I would be curious as to whether the church’s policy has changed under Frank’s administration…)
December 4th, 2006 at 7:26 am
Preserving ‘image’ is the essence of phariseeism.
Thank God Jesus was not a pharisee!
Question: Did Jesus become ceremonially unclean when he dove into the muck of this world, to save us?
December 4th, 2006 at 9:29 am
I recall hearing something to this effect in relation to Karen Taylor or Mary Smith and a catalyst to subsequent removal of responsibilities of their husbands in the hierarchy of Bible Temple…. as the counseling files of their clients would NOT be open for inspection by BT demigods.
December 4th, 2006 at 12:15 pm
Does City Bible Church have trained counseling to handle people struggling with homosexuality? If not, do they refer people to ministries better equipped to handle this topic, such as metanoia ministries?
Also, I could understand reasoning behind denying this type of group. It would not make any sense to bring men and women together who are struggling with fornication. But alas, I’m not a councilor, I don’t know that path to healing sexual orientation, other than looking to Jesus.
December 4th, 2006 at 1:25 pm
The reason there isn’t acceptance or support groups is because the church is in large part homophobic. Why the church rejects a population of people based on their sex lives, yet embraces liers, cheaters, and adulterers is beyond me. If liers continue to lie, they still get to come to church, but if a homosexual continues to have a relationship with his/her partner w/out changing, they are asked to leave. If they want to argue that homosexuality is a sin, then they need to place the same weight on other Biblical sins. But, they don’t. They pick out issues like abortion & homosexuality, leaving other sins to fall by the wayside. In my opinion, homosexuality isn’t a sin, but I do believe it is a sin for the church to be unloving & unaccepting in their actions against homosexuals. I don’t believe people should have to repress it. I do believe people need to live their lives in a sexually healthy way that protects themselves & others both emotionally & physically. Unfortunately, because the church is homophobic, they will continue to have a so-called heterosexual congregation with homosexual members (Ted Haggard would be a recent example of this) and a sexually repressed “singles” group.
–Karli
December 4th, 2006 at 1:39 pm
Without being too judgemental here, this smacks of someone who’s never been around homosexuals or fornicators. If I was seeking help with fixing a marriage due to an affair, it’s unlikely that I’d rock the casbah with anyone else in the group, nor would it be likely for me to go out drinking with other members of an AA meeting.
The mentality that a room full of gays is an orgy waiting to brake out is ignorant ar best.
December 4th, 2006 at 1:43 pm
As is my spelling of “at”.
December 4th, 2006 at 2:18 pm
And your spelling of brake.
December 4th, 2006 at 2:24 pm
I wrestled with BT/CBC and especially Dick Iverson, over the issue of how we help those with emotional wounds, for years.
I always taught publicly at the very edge of what would be tolerable to Dick before He would come right out and fire me. He knew I was teaching things at the ragged edge of his belief systems, but being the politically astute man he was, and to be fair, the gentle and gracious man that he was, he tolerated me on it.
Let me be clear, I do not favor turning everyone into a self focused psycho babbler or to enable in folks what they should “just deal with,” but Kevin is exactly right, and I fought, for years, to get his kind of logic across to Dick. I assure you, it was all to no avail, and ultimately was a part of the reason why I was dropped like a hot potato when my son decided to the test the limits of BT tolerance for rebellion. Dick was sick and tired of me challenging him about our responsibility to provide adequate care, or referral, to those who could adequately care, for those who had genuine needs beyond our skill and understanding for helping.
It was just not an area he could cope with. To Dick, anything having to do with healing of the emotions, and resolution of wounds of the heart, seemed completely unnecessary to him.
He was “old school” all the way, when it came to counseling. At one point he told the eldership, and I paraphrase: “4 counseling sessions max, no matter how serious the issue. We aren’t a counseling center, and we aren’t here to molly coddle those who just want private excessive time with a sympathetic listener.”
I desperately wanted to help those who had been abused in their earlier life. Nothing grieved me more than to have Dick do his best to protect the Church from psycho-babble, only to end up devastating the wounded listeners, and convincing them God didn’t care for them after all. They had hoped He would care, and Dick’s messages told them He didn’t. Again, in all fairness to Dick, this was not his intent, but nothing that I, or Larry Wade, or Tom Taylor, said to him would change or modify his thinking and approach. It was beyond exasperating.
Ultimately I was a victim of the same philosophy. I was religiously addicted, and needed help. My family was in chaos, due to my religious addictions, and there was NO ONE at BT to stand with us. For 10 months nobody came to our side to help us through our crisis.
What did this produce in me? Initially bitterness, huge bitterness, but as time has gone by it has helped me to understand the dangers of IC thinking, the need for a concept of Church that was far larger than anything I had ever seen at BT, and a philosophy of Jesus that waaay expanded my understandings of how fantastically compassionate He really is.
It has been a good journey, and I’m still in it.
December 4th, 2006 at 2:43 pm
but, Tom… your son was NOT the only child of one of the “elders” to be rebellious… Ben Malmin, one of Howdy Sligar’s sons, …. probably more…
So how did their “positions” not suffer?
Speaking of Howdy Sligar… he used to annoy me with all his “outbursts” when sitting on the platform or even in the “pews.” His “religious” outbursts. And go figure.. he was adulated/lauded and encouraged for them.
THen a few years later came Wes…. you all remember Wes. Nice guy. Following Jesus with his whole heart and emulating what he saw as Jesus qualities in others, esp. leadership. He too would have “religous” outbursts during services…. but was he adulated/lauded and encouraged for them??????? HA HA HA. He got stern looks, you name it, and he was probably even “talked to” at different times that it was felt he was “out of order.”
A case of what’s good for the goose…. dare not the gander try to mimic.
December 4th, 2006 at 2:54 pm
Living Life,
So long as you were on the “inside” track with Dick, and you didn’t press his belief systems, you were a good guy, and just about no matter how much trouble came into your life you would be carried through it by the leadership, but if you pushed Dick on his principles, and because as he said “he was driving the bus,” you would find little to no support in your time of personal crisis.
I saw Tim Smith, Dave Mackin, Tom Taylor, and others receive similar treatment, just because they were unwilling to follow the political party line that Dick and Frank demanded.
When you hold the keys to the kingdom, and only share them with those who see things your way, especially on the issues that matter big time to you, then those who see things differently are treated far differently than the Ken Malmin’s and Howdy Sligar’s, who were and are “Company Men,” to the hilt.
I could go the “Company Man,” approach only so far, but when people were being devastated by “The Company Standards,” or as Dick called them “The Lines drawn in the sand,” I refused to kiss a… any longer, and took it in the chops for it.
The moment you make Church a business, and appoint anything like a CEO to run it, you are running a HUGE risk that this kind of thing will happen. I watched it happen over and over again.
December 4th, 2006 at 6:22 pm
Hi folks,
This topic is near and dear to me. If I had not lived through this I would not have believed it. Anyone who was sexual active (straight or gay) at BT was considered vile and it was the worst offense possible. Remember if a couple had sex and they were not married, there would be a public apology, we would be asked to pray for them, even on a Sunday morning in the prayer room before service? Remember if you were divorced your eligibility to be an elder was over? Remember Jerry McKinney whose wife left him. He would never be in leadership because of divorce. (This is off subject but I’ll mention it. I’ve spoken to Charlotte Iverson a few times. After her divorce, the Iverson family had no contact with her. She became a blemish on the family and a non-entity.) The shame placed on these folks was tremendous. It was in disguise of maintaining a community standard. I think this was used to instill fear in others with the thought this could happen to you if you fell morally. If struggling with sexual issues the last place to seek help was leadership at BT.
Harold Leggett wrestled with homosexuality all his life. He was repeatedly sexual abused growing up as well. He went to leadership for help and told them of behaviors he was engaged in. Instead of counseling and compassion he was disciplined. These came in interesting and varying degrees. He was told he could not prophesy in or out of church for 3 months one time. Another discipline was only being allowed to go to work & church, pray more, with no other activities. Gosh…that really turned his life around!! Yet…remember Jimmy Lee. He was gay and a cross dresser. He became a christian at a BT service and was hailed as a celebrity. He was flaunted around and shown off as to what is happening at BT but his life was a mess. I know because he lived with me.
Harold, to prove he was not a practicing homosexual, married. Which proved not to be a good idea. In order to be an elder, marriage was a requirement. Yet the day before the wedding he was hitting up on the best man.
To summarize why I said the above is: At BT the outward appearance was far more important then being honest about what is going on inside. If you were honest and vulnerable then you had a weakness. You are disciplined for having a weakness. You will never measure up no matter how hard you tried to please the leadership. Those who genuinely want & seek help must go else where.
Also, I know a “James”. For a long time he wandered aimlessly. He now attends a great little church in Vancouver. Loves God. Has a big heart and a sense of humor to match.
Just my 2 cents,
Laura
December 4th, 2006 at 6:38 pm
Yes, yes, yes Laura!!!!!
May God teach us to so love those who are struggling with whatever, that we are literally known for our gracious hearts toward the hurting.
It is no honor to the Lord or His Church that we are more often known as homophobes, and insensitive to their pain.
If we hope to be God’s instruments of healing to whomever, we must learn to look to Him for His approach, and never forget John 8:1-11.
And, wouldn’t it just bend our minds in all kinds of unimaginable contortions if we got to heaven and found we didn’t have it quite right about homosexuality? That God saw some kind of difference between those who even a large segment of the homosexual community consider to be aberrant, perverse, and evil, in their homosexuality, compared to those who weren’t? Are you 100% absolutely, with no question in the far recesses of your mind and heart, whomever you may be, certain it couldn’t be? If not, then perhaps it would behoove us to let His love be more our banner than our hatred for homosexuality.
I too remember a James…talked to him just the other day, and many others who came to my office to talk of their struggles, and I loved each and every visit, and I have NEVER experienced a greater and more pure love from any other person than my dear friend James. I wish Harold was still here to tell him I love him. I count him my friend, and I feel very ashamed of myself for not walking closer to him during his days of struggle and ultimate death. God bless you Harold! I’m certain you are being embraced by Jesus even this evening, and I can’t wait to see you again bro!!!
December 4th, 2006 at 6:43 pm
“I could go the “Company Man,” approach only so far, but when people were being devastated by “The Company Standards,” or as Dick called them “The Lines drawn in the sand,” I refused to kiss a… any longer, and took it in the chops for it.”
Is this why there seemed to be so many departures by elders to start churches in the 80’s and 90’s, or was that more of an empire building kind of thing?
December 4th, 2006 at 7:17 pm
Locutus,
December 4th, 2006 at 7:38 pm
Yes, Yes, Yes Tom!!!
Here is my opinion and view on homosexuality.
My 1st mission in this life is to Love the Lord my God with all my whole being and then my neighbor as myself. 2nd we are ALL put on this planet with a purpose and plan. There is not 1 person above or beneath any of us. We are all equal in God’s eyes. We are to love others as our understanding and depth of God’s love is able to penetrate us. This something we learn. God puts difficult and different people into our paths for us to learn the fruits of the Spirit. He at times through great expense and painful lessons allows us to be stretched and challenged in our thinking. He wants us to have the mind of Christ. God is love and He want us to do the same with everyone.
I have been challenged by God to learn to love myself and be at peace with who I am. He then threw me into difficult life situation to “expand my borders”. My occupational journey has landed me managing in MAC Cosmetics. If you have ever been to a MAC counter you can appreciate this. “All races, all sexes, all colors”. I have met and bonded as family with some outstanding gay folks who are so genuine that I told George, “You are truly the first person I have met without guile!”. As a dear friend you get to know someones story. A relationship and trust is built. As Tom Said, “Approach is everything”!!! When someone knows they are truly loved just as they are, they will be open and receptive.
Thanks For Listening!
Laura Fouts
December 4th, 2006 at 7:48 pm
P.S.
Hope I am not monopolizing.
I believe we will see Harold again. He truly loved our heavenly Father. He was to afraid to be honest. Shame got the best of him. Secrets took his life. I know he now knows and understands grace. I and the boys were with him in the hospice up until the time of his death. He told Wayman Steele the biggest regret in his life was letting his family go. He did not pass away alone. His companion who we got to know was there at the end. He had worship music playing 24/7.
I wish his story would encourage others. You have to be honest and accepted where you are in life. This is a journey and it is one foot in front of the other.
Laura Fouts
December 4th, 2006 at 8:11 pm
I too appreciated Harold.. if that is the right word. He was a super guy. I always tried to keep in touch with him at least once a year by phone, the last time probably within 6 months of his death. Harold had a lot to offer this world and life. His funeral was indeed a celebration of his life, but I have to admit I had problems with the whole concept of a “gay Christian funeral.” My jury is out on that matter. I am glad that God is the one deciding these issues and not us.
December 5th, 2006 at 8:07 am
Funerals are for the living. Heard his mom had a lot to do with the arrangements.
December 5th, 2006 at 8:14 am
We all sins so…
I sure hope there will be gays in heaven. Otherwise, the standards might be to much for most of us to get in.
p.s. Last I checked the only requirement was “believe”.
December 5th, 2006 at 9:23 am
One of the important things each of us have been given back, as a result of no longer being under the “rule” of the various Church hierarchical leaders we once were ruled by, is the joy of “questioning” things, and not “having” to have all the answers right now.
By its very nature, the traditional Church must be “afraid” of those who question, and afraid of allowing themselves to question, because they have set themselves up as those who “must” have “all” the answers for every doctrine and every perplexing question of culture, morals, and biblical interpretation.
Such a burden, is none other than the burden of pride and the desire to build an empire; supported with the assumption that if we don’t know all the answers our subjects will have less confidence in our leadership, and might take their money and service somewhere else.
There is NOTHING wrong with not knowing all the answers to all the questions. Leaders in the body of Christ have placed an unnecessary weight upon their shoulders, so they could appear as “all knowing” and command a faithful following. It is such a joy to be able to stand, or sit, before the people, and say “You know what…I don’t know this or that.” I don’t know if gays will be in heaven. I don’t know if Senior Pastors, who have developed slavish followers of their rules, regulations, and standards, will be in heaven. I don’t know if Pedophiles will be in heaven. But, I also don’t know they won’t. I don’t have to know. I just have to love each of these people groups.
Where the bible fails to fill in all the holes…and there are many places it does so…I am free to say “I don’t know.” It is for freedom He has set us free, and one of the greatest freedoms is the freedom of not having to know everything that honesty would admit to not knowing.
I have more unanswered questions today, than at any other time in my life as a leader in the body of Christ. My leadership is no longer buttressed by “Just ask me…I know all the answers to all the difficult questions…I have to because I’m your leader, and you won’t respect me, and pay me, and bow down to me, if I don’t.”
If my leadership is in anyway tied to being able to cerebrally satisfy all of somebodies scriptural questions, then my leadership is build on shifting sands that will never stand the test of storms.
We are free friends. WE ARE FREE TO THINK AGAIN, TO QUESTION AGAIN, TO NOT KNOW AGAIN, and to feel ok about that. Once again we can seek the face of our God for answers to our perplexing questions and not lose it when He doesn’t answer us immediately.
So what do we do in the face of not knowing whether homosexuals will be in heaven? WE LOVE THEM!!! Yes, we embrace them, we become their friends, and we treat them like viable human beings, who have feelings, who need the warmth of understanding and compassion. I didn’t say we turn ourselves into homosexuals. I said we love them. God will judge what needs judging. I can agree with God that homosexual acts of sexual gratification are sinful, but I can, at the very same moment, love those who commit such acts. I don’t have know whether I’m loving someone who will one day spend eternity in hell, and thus I’ve wasted my time on them. There is no such thing as wasting love.
Now here’s one last brain teaser, of “not knowing,” that will shock many of you. Did you know there is a huge debate, amongst very bible believing scholars, such as Karl Barth, AT Robertston, William Barclay, George MacDonald, Origen, and many others, who just aren’t sure that Hell is what the Dark Ages Church teachings have led us to believe about it? That it may not be endless. That Jesus’ grace may even extend to the other side of the grave, and have a way to set free the prisoners of sin from their sin. Before anyone freaks that Tom is a Universal Reconciliationist let me say I’m not…BUT there are some legitimate questions about the concepts of hell we have been fed by the Institutional Church theologians for centuries.
Soooo, before we consign all homosexuals to an endless hell, we just might want to revisit the doctrine of an endless hell and see if we really feel as confident to be as dogmatic as we have been told to be, regarding its endlessness.
It has left me “not knowing for sure,” and being ok with that. I’m no longer in either camp on that issue. I won’t champion either side of it. I believe there is ample reason to believe that there was much God could have given us in scripture, to make this issue much clearer, and in the absence of that “much more” we might be well to be a little bit less “sure” we know exactly how things will turn out. What I will champion is the awesome love and grace of an awesome God, who in the end will almost surely blow our minds with Who He is, and the provision of the cross of Christ.
I will relate to the “lost” as though they may be lost for eternity, in terms of reaching out to them with His marvelous love, but I will stop short of condemning anyone to a Christless eternity, just because some self assured theologians have created doctrinal positions on somewhat inconclusive passages and word meanings. The subject is worthy of study, but loving the lost with compassion is a far better means of delivering their souls from a Christless eternity…if such a Christless eternity should even exist…than attempting to shame, condemn, and scare people into receiving the finished work of Jesus.
Questions…many questions…none will endure forever as all will be answered eventually, but love endures forever. Let us love.
End of sermon on Questions…LOL…
Tom
December 5th, 2006 at 11:33 am
I believe Jesus said: “go, and sin no more” , some people need to read the scripture better, and not pick it apart to find the verses they like, and dis-gaurd the ones they don’t. Another thing most people don’t understand is that a sin, is a sin, whether you are a liar, or a thief, or a homosexual, ect. We are all sinners, and we have all fallen short of the glory of God, the turning point is when we say we are serious enough about loving Jesus ask him into our heart, and turn from our wicked ways!
If all you do is just “believe” I think you might as well just say once saved always saved, so I can go do whatever I want and have no consequences, because I am already forgiven, so what does it matter if I still live in sin and not strive to get out of it? God is the ultimate Judge, and all we have to go by is his word, and his still small voice to live the right way, but if we are tuning him out by doing what we want, and not what he want’s we will keep trying to justify our sin, and if you are doing that you are living a lie! Jesus loves us and want’s the best for us, all I am saying is we should do our part, by following him and using his life, and what he did as somthing to strive for!
Comment ID #14749 Will Be Quoted Here]
December 5th, 2006 at 11:36 am
I know I’m in minority on this one. But I just want to state that I don’t think homosexuality is a sin.
December 5th, 2006 at 11:49 am
What is the scriptural justification?
December 5th, 2006 at 11:59 am
Look up romans 1:26-27, 1 cor 6:9, and 1 tm 1:10 and get back to me.
December 5th, 2006 at 12:05 pm
I find my argument works best if I ask you to justify why homosexuality is a sin. And then I explain why all those verses don’t apply anymore.
I guess the most compelling scriptures I’ve read condemning homosexuality were in the Old Testament. And since Christians follow very few Old Testament Scriptures, I’m not persuaded by those verses.
And the best New Testament Scripture is Romans 1:26. “For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.”
Yet, in the past Paul’s teachings have been used to justify slavery and the complete subordination of woman. And I feel Christians are falling into that trap again with homosexuals.
December 5th, 2006 at 12:54 pm
A lot of Christians are mistaken to believe that the Old Testament is not applicable to modern day Christians. If that was the case why does the Bible have both Old and New Testaments? The reason is that the God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament and He doesn’t change his mind. Jesus quotes the Old Testament numerous times. If the Old Testament was no longer necessary, why did Jesus use it to preach His message? What it boils down to is what is sin in the Old Testament is sin in the New Testament.
December 5th, 2006 at 12:55 pm
How can you say those verses do’nt apply anymore? You must be a follower of Carlton Person’s twisted teachings, of “inclusion”. You are reading the Bible with your head, and not your heart, and taking what you want from it, and leaving out what you don’t want. Live how you want, don’t do anthing to change for the better, there’s no standards in life, no right and wrong, ect.. Do you think for one second that adultry is not a sin (as in the ten commandments), oh wait that’s in the old testement, so it does’nt apply right? Homosexuality adultry is a sin, just like hederosexual adultry is, and don’t even say anything about homosexual marrige.
December 5th, 2006 at 12:57 pm
Very well said, Lucy…..
December 5th, 2006 at 12:57 pm
Just for discussions sake… Why would any homosexual want to be a Christian?
December 5th, 2006 at 1:00 pm
Dueteronomy 14:8 says it’s a sin to eat Pork.
BACK AWAY FROM THE BACON, Lucy!
December 5th, 2006 at 1:03 pm
Catalyst, you really are showing your true, pathetic colors by that remark, get a life.
December 5th, 2006 at 1:04 pm
I support Gay Marriage.
It’s actually only a matter of time. This is a generational issue, and most of Generation X and Generation Y support gay marriage. Give it 20 years.
December 5th, 2006 at 1:11 pm
Before anyone freaks that Tom is a Universal Reconciliationist
I’m still freaking that Tom thinks the church is a harlot! LOL.
December 5th, 2006 at 1:12 pm
Catalyst,
I Colossians 2:16 “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a new moon celebration, or a sabbath day.”
Bring on the bacon!
December 5th, 2006 at 1:14 pm
To try and justify the lifestyle that they are living, and to make themself’s feel better about living in sin. That’s my guess, I mean it’s like any other sinner in the church trying to justify stealing, or murdering, or any other sin for that matter, as long as they get that warm and fuzzy feeling on sunday they will be ok for the rest of the week.
December 5th, 2006 at 1:21 pm
And there goes your “God doesn’t change/Sin is alway Sin” argument.
December 5th, 2006 at 1:24 pm
Good point. All you need to do is find a verse in the New Testament that has Jesus/Matthew/Mark/Luke/John/Paul saying homosexuality is a-okay and we’ll all agree on it. I’ll wait.
December 5th, 2006 at 1:31 pm
Naw, you’re free to believe whatever you want. I don’t care. I’m just saying, the Bible isn’t clear on this issue, and I don’t think homosexuality is a sin.
December 5th, 2006 at 1:40 pm
That was a nice back-pedaling job, bravo! The point is, love the sinner, hate the sin, and do you think Jesus would approve of such a vile thing?
December 5th, 2006 at 1:47 pm
As a serious question for the people that believe homosexuals can enter in a Christian marriage, how would a pastor approach a wedding ceremony? Usually it’s Gen 2:24 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife and they will become one flesh.”
If the Bible is unclear on the subject, then surely we can use it to create a homosexual marriage ceremony. What verses can be used to express this union?
December 5th, 2006 at 1:47 pm
Judgie Poo,
Can you show me one person who has gone and sinned no more? Is that the qualification to get into heaven? Sin no more?
I can try and try and you can pray and pray, but at the end of the day we are still sinners…thankfully, sinners saved by grace. So why do our sins not disqualify us from heaven, but homosexual sins do?
Not to point out any flaws you may have, but with all the judging you do against homosexuals you might want to consider changing your name.
As far as “once saved always saved” goes: what do you do with John 10:27-28 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.?
December 5th, 2006 at 1:54 pm
Yet you have already condemned them to hell.
How are you possibly going to love them when they are already burning in your mind?
December 5th, 2006 at 2:01 pm
God judges us on our heart as well as our actions. Part of asking for forgiveness is repentance. Do you believe that people that are truly repentant go and repeat the same sin over and over again? Go forth and sin no more doesn’t necessarily mean be a perfect person for the rest of your life, or else, it just means stop doing what is causing you to sin.
December 5th, 2006 at 2:04 pm
Catalyst: I’m with you as I stated in my earlier post that I also do not believe it is a sin.
KK
December 5th, 2006 at 2:09 pm
judge not:
you are wrong on so many levels with this statement that i don’t even know where to start. –karli
December 5th, 2006 at 2:14 pm
lucygirl,
I get where you are going with this and to an extent we agree, but the problem is that we all have sins that we struggle with on a daily basis. Gossip, Lying, Coveting, Pride, Anger, Malice… but we dismiss these things because we can’t beat them. Don’t fool yourself Lucy, you are as much a sinner as they are (as am I).
The point is this. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US NEEDS CHRIST without his work on the cross all is lost. No honest person can say they have stopped sinning. We need Jesus. We all need Jesus.
December 5th, 2006 at 2:15 pm
I am not judging homosexuals, if you would pay attention to the whole comment, I said a sin is a sin!! Homosexuality just happend to be one of them. Also the whole go and sin no more thing means, is that you make a concious effort to change the things that are against the word of God, just like murder, cheating, adultary, and yes homosexuality!
Sin itself dis-qualifies us from heaven that’s were the cross comes in, and if our heart is not where it needs to be than God will judge everyone according to there works,including myself! I understand that God hates sin, and if we continue to live in it, and don’t turn from it we are living in a blissfull everthings ok world, witch is a lie from you know where. Gimmie a break I am not judging anyone, I am stating what God’s word says, and if you have a problem with that than talk to him about it.
P.S. I will not change my name, thanks.
December 5th, 2006 at 2:19 pm
Judgie Poo,
Again, can you show me one person who has gone and sinned no more? Is that the qualification to get into heaven? Sin no more?
December 5th, 2006 at 2:25 pm
Before we all devolve into personhood slams, and everybody gets “P…’d” off with everyone else, I’d love to hear some good sound thinking on the following passage of Scripture:
1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
December 5th, 2006 at 2:27 pm
Quit trying to be a smarta*! no one is “qualified” to go to heaven it is the grace of God and what Jesus did on the cross. It is a heart change, like your motives, or your intentions. I know that we are all sinners, but if our heart is’nt changed than we are “spinning our wheels” as a christian and we will never get ahead in our spiritual wlk.
December 5th, 2006 at 2:39 pm
Hey Tom - serious question from me for a change … do you view the Kingdom as something that is inhereted now, or when we die? Since Jesus said that the kingdom comes in our hearing and that the kingdom is within us, it suggests that it is ours NOW. So, perhaps what that scripture is really saying is, you can’t live by the flesh / lusts / carnal nature now and ALSO have the kingdom - to have / inheret the kingdom, you have to crucify your fleshly desires.
Anyway, just curious if you viewed that as a NOW or future (after death / judgment) verse?
‘Scrupe
December 5th, 2006 at 2:45 pm
I believe that this scripture is very cut and dry, and it tells it like it is, we all are sinners, and our sins are washed away when we accept christ, and we have a new start. It is just like a person that had a drinking problem, and went though treatment, do you think that the first place he is going to go after treatment, is the bar, granted he might make mistakes, but if he is serious enough to make a change he will resist the temptation and do the best he can, but we as christians have an advantage, we can rely on God to help us when we are weak.
December 5th, 2006 at 2:52 pm
So then you do believe there will be Homosexuals in heaven.
December 5th, 2006 at 2:58 pm
Is he talking about “single act practice,” or “multiple act practice?”
Is he saying anyone who commits these sins once, or anyone who regularly commits them?
Is he saying homosexuality is any worse than any of the others?
Is there anyone among us who has not been sexually immoral since becoming a believer? Maybe. How about putting something ahead of God, I.e. idolatry? Maybe. How about stealing something? Could that include goofing off on the job, blogging when we’re supposed to be working, and thus stealing salary…oops…just kidding! How about greed? Maybe. How about drinking more than the legal limit, on ocassion? Maybe. How about REVILING. Ouch, saying something really unkind about somebody else. I’m sure that one could be hung over any of us at times. And swindling..I.e. charging more than something was really worth?
If we’ve done some of these things does it mean we’ve been cut out of the Kingdom? At what point does being cut out of the Kingdom take place, if it is more than just one act that does it?
In other words, there are many facets to this issue, and I could throw out many more.
Before we are all too sure which way this issue will land with God, at least we might recognize some of the complexities of it.
December 5th, 2006 at 3:01 pm
That is a bad argument RP. “We can’t help but sin so don’t worry about it.”
Homosexuals are the only group of people that enter a church and demand the church changes for them. They are the only people that wants to rewrite God’s laws to suit them. If an adulterer comes to ask for forgiveness, and is repentant, we tell them to stop nailing the secretary and go home to his wife and children. If a thief asks for forgiveness, we tell them to stop stealing and get a job. That goes for all sins, including my own, for I am a sinner as well.
Homosexuals don’t repent their sin, they pride themselves in it. Just because you’re willing to turn a blind eye to it doesn’t mean God does.
December 5th, 2006 at 3:03 pm
RP, is Ted Haggard a homosexual in your opinion?
December 5th, 2006 at 3:08 pm
If you don’t know the answer to that then you shouldn’t be discussing this issue.
How many gays do you know?
December 5th, 2006 at 3:10 pm
Scrupe,
That is an excellent question, and of course I do have some thoughts on it, but of course…that doesn’t necessarily mean they are right. I’m still a learner.
I really think it is both. I believe the Kingdom is within us, developing in the spiritual realm all around us, and will take it fullest and clearest expression when Jesus returns.
The harder question for me to settle, is which of these three dimensions is Paul referring to? As a good apocalyptic Jew that he is, I’m sure he is thinking of the third element of it, but is not at all referring to the first two?
I “suspect” that what Paul is trying to say more than anything, is that anyone who settles in his mind that he can live in what he knows to be sin, I.e. practice it however and whenever he desires, is fooling himself if he thinks he is currently or in the future going to have any involvement in God’s kingdom.
Do I still sin in areas? Of course! Do I even repeat certain sins more often than seem reasonable or in line with solid commitment to discipleship? Yes! But, do I look at areas of sin in my life and tell God, “Well God, here’s how it is…I can’t seem to overcome this area so You’re just going to have to live with it!” Nope, NEVER! Not because I’m afraid He’d strike me dead, but because it just doesn’t fit with His kingdom being in me and me being in His kingdom. My spirit just “knows” this doesn’t square with kingdom life with God.
So, I deal with my sin, through repentance and confession, accountability, etc., because I want to be a kingdom man, both now and forever.
Those who don’t want this should really wrestle with Paul’s statements here.
December 5th, 2006 at 3:20 pm
Don’t patronize me, people that have accepted christ and turned there back on homsexuality will be in heaven, just like people that turn thier back on other sins in thier life. That means if you are activley participating in sin with no desire to change, wether you call yourself a christian, or not, according to the bible you will not go to heaven, those are God’s word, not mine!
December 5th, 2006 at 3:24 pm
Wow…I’m loving this thread. Complexities for sure!
I grew up at BT, so my gut reaction has always been homosexuality is a clear-cut sin. But in recent years I’ve begun to understand a deeper meaning of the power of Christ’s grace for all of us.
I can say for where I’m at right now that I agree with lucygirl that I “feel” like if you are repentant of your sin then you put an emphasis on NOT doing it again…thus making an active homosexual lifestyle contradictory to the nature of repentance.
But on the flip side of that coin….for a number of years I could have been described as a hot-blooded college man, with a cumpulsory for masturbatorial activities (used largely in part to remain a virgin ’til I was almost 30!).
And although my “spirit” was forever willing, my “flesh” seemed forever weak! And try as I might, it took me a long time to “master” (eh, eh) those desires. (I know some of you will argue that this isn’t sin either, but for MY spirit it was, and it helps me understand waging war against an enemy that appears unbeatable) (eh,eh!).
Ultimately, I don’t really have a point here, other than to say I am digging the discussions we are having on this blog lately! I like that for the most part we are keeping it friendly. I LOVE that we have a few new additions that come out of BT eldership, etc. and provide richer color on the discussions.
I’m “gleefully torn” as I read some of these deep topics, and I really like Tom’s idea that there’s freedom in not having to have all the answers! I don’t think we should stop looking…and discussing…and pursuing them. But we should breathe in the release of not having to have them!
Much love!
December 5th, 2006 at 3:26 pm
Judge not…
I don't think God said it quite like that, but I'll allow you to paraphrase.
Again, I can't help but think that we all actively participate in sin even though we don't want to, but you go ahead and cast that first stone…after all your hard work here you've earned it.
December 5th, 2006 at 3:30 pm
As regards Catylyst and Karli…
My only encouragement, as we address these issues, knowing they are in the background watching and interacting, is ask ourselves “Do we believe their souls deserve respectful treatment even if we disagree with them?”
Let’s use these two as microcosms of the broader culture we live in. As a Church we have done much to create an image in the minds of the homosexual community that we are callous, cruel, and gatekeepers to the fires of hell, ready to cast them in. All I’m saying is that whether we are talking to those sympathetic to the gay community, or those actively involvement in it, the manner we approach them is ultimately as important as the content we approach them with.
Look, no matter how you slice it, this is not a simple matter. We’re talking psychology, theology, culture, grammar, exegesis, and a host of other complex issues of doctrine. We can afford to be gracious here, even if in our graciousness this doesn’t mean we have to be in agreement with those who support or participate in homosexuality.
I strongly suspect any sexual activity between two people of the same sex is something God disapproves of, but I’m as interested in caring for the souls of those who believe this lifestyle is approved by God, as I am in declaring I think the practice is unhealthy, and sin.
We cannot allow ourselves to elevate the sinfulness of this issue to a place above any of the other issues Paul discusses in 1 Cor. 6. If we do we must at least be honest enough to admit that we do, not so much because we believe God does, but because emotionally it is just an upsetting practice to our thinking, and it makes us personally very uncomfortable.
I’m so glad Paul just lumped it in with all the other things he did. Can we not at least share his “leveling” attitude, even we can’t share agreement with those in the homosexual community?
I don’t mean to sound preachy here. I probably am, but I don’t want to be. I just feel intense love for this segment of our cuture. I’ve never witnessed, in my 54 years of life, any one group of people be so hammered in the name of God. We don’t do it to the revilers, the swindlers, the adulterers, etc., near like we do it to those in this community.
As soon as we recognize we aren’t defending God, near as much as we are defending our personal sense of discomfort, in that moment we just might be able to turn towards them and be witnesses of His love and grace to them.
December 5th, 2006 at 3:32 pm
In sojourning with the Lord by the leading of the Spirit, He has shown me some very unsettling things. Among them, the real homosexuality.
Have you ever noticed that of all the sins that upset religious churches, it’s homosexuality that most upsets them? The reason for that is, homosexuality is the mirror image of religion. And so the religious churches repulsion at homosexuality, is really a form of self-loathing.
In a nutshell, what God wants from us is intimate personal relationship with man and God - a 1:1 with us - and the result of that 1:1 between man and God is spiritual rebirth - spiritual procreation - a new creation is born. God enters us, and we enter Him in intimate personal spiritual relationship, and the result is a new life.
God patterned male/female relationship, marriage, and child birth after His desired intimate procreational relationship with man.
But man has, since Adam first tried to make a covering for himself, been trying to make their way to God by themselves. Man often turns to man for that which he should seek directly from God. Men exalt men to god like positions, revere them as intermediaries between men and God.
Man can not reach God through man because man is incapable of fathering spiritual rebirth in man. Only God can Father spiritual rebirth in us.
And so, intimate relationship with God (spiritually procreative) is to the religion of men (spiritually barren), what marriage between a man and woman (child bearing) is to homosexuality (barren).
Religion is the real homosexuality.
Those who have such great difficulty with physical homosexuality, really need to examine their religious spirit.
In the last 10 years, with the increase of religious ferver in this world, and especially the US, there seems to be a marked rise in homosexuality. I do not think it is a coincidence - for our sin surely has a physical manifestation.
Scripture does talk about bearing one anothers burdens, and Paul makes an interesting statement in Colossians 1:24 about suffering in his body for the sake of the church. Is it possible that homosexuals are bearing the sin burden of a church that is eager to embrace religion and tradition (the teachngs of men) rather than entering into intimate 1:1 relationship with the Father in Christ Jesus?
I have come to believe that God’s destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah has FAR MORE to do with a symbolic destruction of religion, which dares even defile heavenly beings, than the destruction had to do with the physical act of homosexuality. Religion is spiritual homosexuality.
Religionists would do well to put down their stones, and leave the homosexuals alone.
See also Revelation 22:11. If ever there was a scriptural basis for the new age saying “Live and let live”, it’s Revelation 22:11.
Jack
December 5th, 2006 at 4:41 pm
Thirty years ago, divorce was scandalous….twenty years ago, ’shacking up’ with your girl/boy friend was called ‘living in sin’….ten years ago most homosexuals were still ‘in the closet’. Just because something is now socially acceptable doesn’t mean it has ceased to be sin.
Sin becomes ‘normal’ as society casts off moral restraints. God, however, doesn’t really care if you or I have redefined or decided that a particular behavior He has called ’sin’, which He sent His Son to take our agonizing punishment for, is now ‘acceptable’, because ‘everyone else is doing it’. He is stilll planning an awful Day of Judgement. Anyone who stands before God still in his/her sins will be damned, and yes, it is still a fiery place of eternal torment. *shakes head*
Any time we hold on to our ‘darling sins’, no matter what they are, we are proving that we do not care about the incredible sacrifice God made on our behalf….If anyone has watched the Passion of the Christ and was not deeply moved to ponder the level of agony Jesus endured for you and I and the world to be free from both the consequences of sin, and the power of sin, is about as cold and hard–hearted as they come.
It reminds me of a story I heard one time;
An old man and his young son were fishing along a wide river in the jungle. The father implored the son to stay away from the edge of the bank, and warned earnestly of the deadly consequences if he should meet up with one of the many lurking crocodiles that frequented that area…
Sometime later, noticing his father was distracted preparing a meal for the two of them, the boy snuck off to explore the riverbank. He slipped on the wet mud, and tumbled into the water. To his horror, he was immediately attacked by a hungry crocodile. His screams of terror brought his panicked father running, and without hesitation, he dove in to save his precious son. After playing a deadly game of tug of war with the animal, he was able to make his way to shore with his frightened son clutched to his breast, relieved to have only lost a leg and not his child.
As he lay exhausted on the ground, bleeding and writhing in pain, the boy, after examining himself and finding no personal harm was done, got up an rather flippantly thanked his dad for saving him. Then, ignoring his dad’s cries, and knowing he could no longer ‘force’ him to obey, he sauntered back to the riverbank….
December 5th, 2006 at 4:53 pm
I have a question.
My friend was married when he got into a relationship with another woman. She got pregnent and he ended up leaving his wife and moving in with the girlfriend. Eventually they got married and had another kid. That was several years ago.
Now they take their kids to church every Sunday. In fact, He and is wife are very involved and seem to be very mature Christians, leading home groups etc..
My question: Are he or his (2nd) wife going to hell? Does he have to leave his current wife to repent (i.e. does he continue in his sin by remaining with her), or are they ok with God?
Just curious what your thoughts/opinions are.
December 5th, 2006 at 5:07 pm
In all of this (very interesting) conversation, I want to invite anyone struggling with unwanted same sex attractions to know there is hope and freedom.
As much as City Bible may have had (or continues to have) issues with Portland Fellowship, the truth of the matter is many men and women find the hope, in Christ, they are seeking through Portland Fellowship.
If you are unaware of this ministry I encourage you to check it out, www.portlandfellowship.com
Blessings,
Jason Thompson
Portland Fellowship Director
December 5th, 2006 at 5:18 pm
They won’t have to stand before me on that Day….so it doesn’t matter what I think….
I do remember that Jesus acknowledged the woman at the well had several husbands, and He then told her that true worshipers of God will worship in Spirit and in Truth….I would bet she knew exactly what He was talking about….
December 5th, 2006 at 5:55 pm
I do believe there will be those in heaven who struggled with same-sex attraction on earth, and I believe there will be many in hell, also. But I believe the ones in heaven will have this to say about their lives on earth: “I had this attraction and I never got over it. I hated it, and I hated that it never left me alone. I never asked for it, but, for whatever reason, I was plagued with it my whole life. But because of God’s grace I’m free from it now.”
Really, though, who makes it to heaven and who doesn’t isn’t ours to speculate, so it’s beside the point.
I know a lot of people who are plagued by unwanted same-sex attraction; they’re followers of Christ, actively involved in the church, love God and live happy, healthy, holy lives. But they’re tormented by unwanted same-sex attraction. One of my greatest friends from college deals with this and he has told me, “I don’t know if I’ll ever be free from this, but I’m determined to try… I believe God is able to free me from this and I believe that he wants to, but even if he doesn’t I’m still going to follow him.”
Lots of people have a predisposition to overeating. Lots of people have a problem with lying. Lots of people are compulsive gamblers. I don’t believe that having a predisposition to these behaviors is sin… I believe giving in to their control is sin. I believe the occasions when one stumbles and acts on them is sin.
BUT (there’s always a but)… homosexuality isn’t anything that’s beyond God’s ability to forgive. The problem we encounter in culture is we have people in the church who think it’s virtually an unpardonable sin, and we have advocates of this sin who don’t recognize it as sin and have waged war on those who do. Both are extremes and both are militant.
The answer? In my book, it is this: first, we need Christians–practitioners of kindness (Romans 2:4)– who genuinely love people unconditionally. I think many of us in the church have a way to go in terms of loving sinners as much as we hate their sin. Through that love, we are able to administer the healing power of Christ.
Second, I believe it’s important for those who struggle with same-sex attraction to understand that practicing homosexuality is sin, but that God is equally as able to deliver us from sin, as he is to forgive us for it.
Anyway, I’m not fond of belabored posts, so I’ll shut up now.
December 5th, 2006 at 6:12 pm
To my way of thinking, Hungry & John444, are probably two sides of the same coin.
Hungry says it hard and John444 says it soft.
In the end it would be nice if we could all come to agreement with God, with the effect that the lost of this world are encouraged towards the light, instead of inclined to reject the light just because the way we handle it makes it harder for them to see Jesus.
Joh 17:21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
December 5th, 2006 at 7:19 pm
I wonder what role the word “abomination” plays in all this? Everytime I hear some KJV-only Bible-thumper condemning homosexuals, they quote that “abomination” scripture, with Jimmy Swaggart fist-shaking emphasis on “abomination” …
December 5th, 2006 at 7:38 pm
Sin when looked up in the Greek is referred to as “missing the mark”. As an archer aims for the target and misses. When we come to Christ we are forgiven and cleansed of all sin and unrighteousness. I believe a true believer knows when they miss the mark then asks forgiveness from our heavenly Father and keeps moving forward. Even if it is 70 x 70 times a day. When you stop searching your own heart and disregards the still small voice of the Holy Spirit is were one becomes hardened in heart.
I believe our God is a God of pure love. They now have discovered 32 levels of dimensions, think about how many more levels God is. They have not found an end to our universe yet God is bigger then all the universes put together. In His infinite wisdom and love I believe he has allowed a variety and assortment of folks on this planets so we would learn how to love, be compassionate and forgiving.
At the same time we are born into a fallen world. It is not perfect and our parents were not perfect. We do not make perfect decisions. This is were the “our fellow believers” come into play. We need each other. We each have a measure of the Holy Spirit in us. We all have different gifts and insights. If allowed in a non judgmental setting we share our insights with love and also persuasions we benefit and can grow in Christ.
Love,
Laura Fouts
P.S. I hope some of you folks come out of the closet and state your names.
December 5th, 2006 at 7:58 pm
If you can’t give a straight (no pun intended) answer, you don’t belong in this discussion either.
Plus, as with the Ted Haggard example, I don’t know any gays, and neither do you. When you figure this point out you’ll realize both of us are wasting time arguing over nothing.
December 5th, 2006 at 8:22 pm
Eww! Homosexuals eat babies and drive hybrids. They’re so, like, evil.
December 5th, 2006 at 8:27 pm
Much talk has been made of coming out of the camp of religion (Hebrews 13:13-14) - and coming out of religion.
There was a time when I was inside the camp, that all my friends were church going Christians - but upon having my eyes opened and leaving the IC, I have very few local Christian friends. Instead, I find my friends are my neighbors who are a mix of non-believers but who nonetheless love me and my wife. Many of my friends are musicians - aging rock and rollers - recovering alcolics and drug users - they too love me.
What’s so strange about it is, several of my friends, being outcasts or the dregs of society, recognize that I am also an outcast, as a follower of Jesus rejected by religious people who follow any/everything BUT Christ. We have some interesting discussions about God, grace, living spiritually, that were never possible with religious people.
Outside the camp, I have also met other fellow outcasts: homosexuals. None of the stereo-typical flaming / parading type, just men and women trying to deal with the hand they’ve been dealt in a religious community that hates them. KK has had several high school students who are gay and they have been friends even after graduation. We make no speeches, no judgments - just love them, and trust the Holy Spirit to do the work that scripture says He will do in convicting the world of sin and dealing with each of us, discretely as Jesus did, individually.
Jesus said that He was sent to / for the sick and lost. Why then would it be a surprise to find ourselves among the sin sick as we follow Jesus?
BTW - according to the strict interpretation of scripture, I’m an adulterer. My 1st wife divorced me for another man, and I ultimately remarried. I’ve been assailed for remarrying while my 1st wife is still alive, and pointed out to the man that the OT scripture he was judging me by, prescribed stoning for the adulterous / fornicating wife, which if enforced would have made me a widower and eligible for remarriage. But because mercy was shown, I am an adulterer. That is a sobering thought - by showing mercy to my ex (not having her stoned), I became an adulterer. Gives new meaning to Jesus who shouldered sin on our behalf …
Since we have the example of Jesus shouldering sin on our behalf, why wouldn’t we follow his example and similarly bear the sin burden of our homosexual brothers and neighbors?
After I got the boot from the IC, I must say that there were a few homosexual neighbors who treated me a LOT better than the IC dwellers did. If the measure of a man is the love they have for others, the few homosexuals I know stack up better than the IC dwellers do.
December 5th, 2006 at 8:41 pm
Is the horse dead yet ?
December 5th, 2006 at 9:21 pm
Catalyst
Catalyst, I can truly understand why you would not carry any dogma from scriptures that sound vague or obsolete. I too am going out on a limb when I say that I believe the Christian life if more subjective than we Traditional Christians would like to believe. I try hard to read from the same bible that Job had.
Given the audience I understand if you don’t want to, but would you mind sharing when you came to the conclusion that Homosexuality is not a sin, and 2 or 3 reasons why you believe it is not?
December 5th, 2006 at 11:25 pm
Hungry on the Harbor…that story about the crocodile was terrible! A normal child wouldn’t do that…the person you heard that story from must have made it up. Children naturally respond to fear & feel threatened if their parent is threatened. Children are super intelligent, and would not go back to a source of an attack. They learn from natural consequences. As a Mother, that story disturbs me on many levels. –Karli
December 6th, 2006 at 12:55 am
Lance,
Pretty sure Job didn’t have a Bible…
December 6th, 2006 at 1:48 am