David Mackin leaves an interesting comment discussing Homophobia. The comment is specifically about Bible Temple, but it likely applies to other churches, as well.
Homophobia in Bible Temple:
Around 1984 while still on staff at PBC, I met a brother named James (name changed). James was a Christian brother who had struggled with homosexuality for many years. James told me that he went to Dick Iverson, the sr. pastor of Bible Temple, and asked him if the local church would sponsor a support group for Christian men who struggled with sexual attraction to other men. James told me that Dick Iverson said that there was no way that Bible Temple would sponsor such a group. According to James, Dick said that he would not want a bunch of men who were struggling with homosexuality to be in the same room with each other lest they start lusting after each other. This decision by Dick so hurt and disappointed James that he left Bible Temple, and, as far as I know, went back to his homosexuality.
A Support Group that Heals Homosexuals:
Just the other day, a Christian psychologist (whom I will call Dr. Tom) told me that he used to lead a Christian men’s group composed of both homosexually-struggling and heterosexual men. He explained that such a mixed group was highly unusual because the male attendees would normally feel threatened, but not in this group. Dr. Tom shared how he encouraged all of the men to hug one another whether they were struggling with their heterosexual identity or not. When I asked him why, Dr. Tom said that those who were struggling so much with homosexual tendencies needed to have other men give them sincere, affectionate but non-sexual hugs since they were only used to the touches of other men being of a sexual nature. Dr. Tom shared that this group saw many, many men turn away from homosexuality, get married and lead normal family lives.
How Bible Temple’s Controlling Spirit Hurt its own Struggling Church Members:
About the same time as meeting James (above), I was visiting with Phil Hobizal, former director of the Portland Fellowship, an Exodus International, Inc. ministry which counsels struggling homosexuals and lesbians. Phil told me that Bible Temple (now City Bible Church) had some church members who were struggling with homosexual issues, but that they would not refer them to the Portland Fellowship for counseling unless Bible Temple leadership had full access to each one of their church members’ counseling files! Phil had to tell them that he could not do that because it was unethical (and probably illegal). As a result, Bible Temple leaders would not refer their own sexually struggling members to a place that specialized in the healing of homosexuals.
Jesus Rebukes the Over-controlling, Uncaring Spirit of Religion:
In my view, we have a doubly sad and abusive state of affairs here: not only would Bible Temple not host a support group for its own church members who were struggling with homosexuality, they also refused to refer their members out to the Portland Fellowship because its director would not violate the privacy of his counselees by giving Bible Temple full access to their church members’ files! Such a situation reminds me of the words that Jesus says to the pastors of His day: “”Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering” (Luke 11:52, NIV). The spirit of “control-over” is a familiar part of the demonics behind human Relgion. Such leaders, when they see that they will not be in total control, would rather allow hurting people to continue in their wounded ways than to assist them in getting the genuine help they need. I don’t think such actions reflect those of Jesus. (I would be curious as to whether the church’s policy has changed under Frank’s administration…)
Preserving ‘image’ is the essence of phariseeism.
Thank God Jesus was not a pharisee!
Question: Did Jesus become ceremonially unclean when he dove into the muck of this world, to save us?
I recall hearing something to this effect in relation to Karen Taylor or Mary Smith and a catalyst to subsequent removal of responsibilities of their husbands in the hierarchy of Bible Temple…. as the counseling files of their clients would NOT be open for inspection by BT demigods.
Does City Bible Church have trained counseling to handle people struggling with homosexuality? If not, do they refer people to ministries better equipped to handle this topic, such as metanoia ministries?
Also, I could understand reasoning behind denying this type of group. It would not make any sense to bring men and women together who are struggling with fornication. But alas, I’m not a councilor, I don’t know that path to healing sexual orientation, other than looking to Jesus.
The reason there isn’t acceptance or support groups is because the church is in large part homophobic. Why the church rejects a population of people based on their sex lives, yet embraces liers, cheaters, and adulterers is beyond me. If liers continue to lie, they still get to come to church, but if a homosexual continues to have a relationship with his/her partner w/out changing, they are asked to leave. If they want to argue that homosexuality is a sin, then they need to place the same weight on other Biblical sins. But, they don’t. They pick out issues like abortion & homosexuality, leaving other sins to fall by the wayside. In my opinion, homosexuality isn’t a sin, but I do believe it is a sin for the church to be unloving & unaccepting in their actions against homosexuals. I don’t believe people should have to repress it. I do believe people need to live their lives in a sexually healthy way that protects themselves & others both emotionally & physically. Unfortunately, because the church is homophobic, they will continue to have a so-called heterosexual congregation with homosexual members (Ted Haggard would be a recent example of this) and a sexually repressed “singles” group.
–Karli
Without being too judgemental here, this smacks of someone who’s never been around homosexuals or fornicators. If I was seeking help with fixing a marriage due to an affair, it’s unlikely that I’d rock the casbah with anyone else in the group, nor would it be likely for me to go out drinking with other members of an AA meeting.
The mentality that a room full of gays is an orgy waiting to brake out is ignorant ar best.
As is my spelling of “at”.
And your spelling of brake.
I wrestled with BT/CBC and especially Dick Iverson, over the issue of how we help those with emotional wounds, for years.
I always taught publicly at the very edge of what would be tolerable to Dick before He would come right out and fire me. He knew I was teaching things at the ragged edge of his belief systems, but being the politically astute man he was, and to be fair, the gentle and gracious man that he was, he tolerated me on it.
Let me be clear, I do not favor turning everyone into a self focused psycho babbler or to enable in folks what they should “just deal with,” but Kevin is exactly right, and I fought, for years, to get his kind of logic across to Dick. I assure you, it was all to no avail, and ultimately was a part of the reason why I was dropped like a hot potato when my son decided to the test the limits of BT tolerance for rebellion. Dick was sick and tired of me challenging him about our responsibility to provide adequate care, or referral, to those who could adequately care, for those who had genuine needs beyond our skill and understanding for helping.
It was just not an area he could cope with. To Dick, anything having to do with healing of the emotions, and resolution of wounds of the heart, seemed completely unnecessary to him.
He was “old school” all the way, when it came to counseling. At one point he told the eldership, and I paraphrase: “4 counseling sessions max, no matter how serious the issue. We aren’t a counseling center, and we aren’t here to molly coddle those who just want private excessive time with a sympathetic listener.”
I desperately wanted to help those who had been abused in their earlier life. Nothing grieved me more than to have Dick do his best to protect the Church from psycho-babble, only to end up devastating the wounded listeners, and convincing them God didn’t care for them after all. They had hoped He would care, and Dick’s messages told them He didn’t. Again, in all fairness to Dick, this was not his intent, but nothing that I, or Larry Wade, or Tom Taylor, said to him would change or modify his thinking and approach. It was beyond exasperating.
Ultimately I was a victim of the same philosophy. I was religiously addicted, and needed help. My family was in chaos, due to my religious addictions, and there was NO ONE at BT to stand with us. For 10 months nobody came to our side to help us through our crisis.
What did this produce in me? Initially bitterness, huge bitterness, but as time has gone by it has helped me to understand the dangers of IC thinking, the need for a concept of Church that was far larger than anything I had ever seen at BT, and a philosophy of Jesus that waaay expanded my understandings of how fantastically compassionate He really is.
It has been a good journey, and I’m still in it.
but, Tom… your son was NOT the only child of one of the “elders” to be rebellious… Ben Malmin, one of Howdy Sligar’s sons, …. probably more…
So how did their “positions” not suffer?
Speaking of Howdy Sligar… he used to annoy me with all his “outbursts” when sitting on the platform or even in the “pews.” His “religious” outbursts. And go figure.. he was adulated/lauded and encouraged for them.
THen a few years later came Wes…. you all remember Wes. Nice guy. Following Jesus with his whole heart and emulating what he saw as Jesus qualities in others, esp. leadership. He too would have “religous” outbursts during services…. but was he adulated/lauded and encouraged for them??????? HA HA HA. He got stern looks, you name it, and he was probably even “talked to” at different times that it was felt he was “out of order.”
A case of what’s good for the goose…. dare not the gander try to mimic.
Living Life,
So long as you were on the “inside” track with Dick, and you didn’t press his belief systems, you were a good guy, and just about no matter how much trouble came into your life you would be carried through it by the leadership, but if you pushed Dick on his principles, and because as he said “he was driving the bus,” you would find little to no support in your time of personal crisis.
I saw Tim Smith, Dave Mackin, Tom Taylor, and others receive similar treatment, just because they were unwilling to follow the political party line that Dick and Frank demanded.
When you hold the keys to the kingdom, and only share them with those who see things your way, especially on the issues that matter big time to you, then those who see things differently are treated far differently than the Ken Malmin’s and Howdy Sligar’s, who were and are “Company Men,” to the hilt.
I could go the “Company Man,” approach only so far, but when people were being devastated by “The Company Standards,” or as Dick called them “The Lines drawn in the sand,” I refused to kiss a… any longer, and took it in the chops for it.
The moment you make Church a business, and appoint anything like a CEO to run it, you are running a HUGE risk that this kind of thing will happen. I watched it happen over and over again.
Hi folks,
This topic is near and dear to me. If I had not lived through this I would not have believed it. Anyone who was sexual active (straight or gay) at BT was considered vile and it was the worst offense possible. Remember if a couple had sex and they were not married, there would be a public apology, we would be asked to pray for them, even on a Sunday morning in the prayer room before service? Remember if you were divorced your eligibility to be an elder was over? Remember Jerry McKinney whose wife left him. He would never be in leadership because of divorce. (This is off subject but I’ll mention it. I’ve spoken to Charlotte Iverson a few times. After her divorce, the Iverson family had no contact with her. She became a blemish on the family and a non-entity.) The shame placed on these folks was tremendous. It was in disguise of maintaining a community standard. I think this was used to instill fear in others with the thought this could happen to you if you fell morally. If struggling with sexual issues the last place to seek help was leadership at BT.
Harold Leggett wrestled with homosexuality all his life. He was repeatedly sexual abused growing up as well. He went to leadership for help and told them of behaviors he was engaged in. Instead of counseling and compassion he was disciplined. These came in interesting and varying degrees. He was told he could not prophesy in or out of church for 3 months one time. Another discipline was only being allowed to go to work & church, pray more, with no other activities. Gosh…that really turned his life around!! Yet…remember Jimmy Lee. He was gay and a cross dresser. He became a christian at a BT service and was hailed as a celebrity. He was flaunted around and shown off as to what is happening at BT but his life was a mess. I know because he lived with me.
Harold, to prove he was not a practicing homosexual, married. Which proved not to be a good idea. In order to be an elder, marriage was a requirement. Yet the day before the wedding he was hitting up on the best man.
To summarize why I said the above is: At BT the outward appearance was far more important then being honest about what is going on inside. If you were honest and vulnerable then you had a weakness. You are disciplined for having a weakness. You will never measure up no matter how hard you tried to please the leadership. Those who genuinely want & seek help must go else where.
Also, I know a “James”. For a long time he wandered aimlessly. He now attends a great little church in Vancouver. Loves God. Has a big heart and a sense of humor to match.
Just my 2 cents,
Laura
Yes, yes, yes Laura!!!!!
May God teach us to so love those who are struggling with whatever, that we are literally known for our gracious hearts toward the hurting.
It is no honor to the Lord or His Church that we are more often known as homophobes, and insensitive to their pain.
If we hope to be God’s instruments of healing to whomever, we must learn to look to Him for His approach, and never forget John 8:1-11.
And, wouldn’t it just bend our minds in all kinds of unimaginable contortions if we got to heaven and found we didn’t have it quite right about homosexuality? That God saw some kind of difference between those who even a large segment of the homosexual community consider to be aberrant, perverse, and evil, in their homosexuality, compared to those who weren’t? Are you 100% absolutely, with no question in the far recesses of your mind and heart, whomever you may be, certain it couldn’t be? If not, then perhaps it would behoove us to let His love be more our banner than our hatred for homosexuality.
I too remember a James…talked to him just the other day, and many others who came to my office to talk of their struggles, and I loved each and every visit, and I have NEVER experienced a greater and more pure love from any other person than my dear friend James. I wish Harold was still here to tell him I love him. I count him my friend, and I feel very ashamed of myself for not walking closer to him during his days of struggle and ultimate death. God bless you Harold! I’m certain you are being embraced by Jesus even this evening, and I can’t wait to see you again bro!!!
“I could go the “Company Man,†approach only so far, but when people were being devastated by “The Company Standards,†or as Dick called them “The Lines drawn in the sand,†I refused to kiss a… any longer, and took it in the chops for it.”
Is this why there seemed to be so many departures by elders to start churches in the 80′s and 90′s, or was that more of an empire building kind of thing?
Locutus,
Yes, Yes, Yes Tom!!!
Here is my opinion and view on homosexuality.
My 1st mission in this life is to Love the Lord my God with all my whole being and then my neighbor as myself. 2nd we are ALL put on this planet with a purpose and plan. There is not 1 person above or beneath any of us. We are all equal in God’s eyes. We are to love others as our understanding and depth of God’s love is able to penetrate us. This something we learn. God puts difficult and different people into our paths for us to learn the fruits of the Spirit. He at times through great expense and painful lessons allows us to be stretched and challenged in our thinking. He wants us to have the mind of Christ. God is love and He want us to do the same with everyone.
I have been challenged by God to learn to love myself and be at peace with who I am. He then threw me into difficult life situation to “expand my borders”. My occupational journey has landed me managing in MAC Cosmetics. If you have ever been to a MAC counter you can appreciate this. “All races, all sexes, all colors”. I have met and bonded as family with some outstanding gay folks who are so genuine that I told George, “You are truly the first person I have met without guile!”. As a dear friend you get to know someones story. A relationship and trust is built. As Tom Said, “Approach is everything”!!! When someone knows they are truly loved just as they are, they will be open and receptive.
Thanks For Listening!
Laura Fouts
P.S.
Hope I am not monopolizing.
I believe we will see Harold again. He truly loved our heavenly Father. He was to afraid to be honest. Shame got the best of him. Secrets took his life. I know he now knows and understands grace. I and the boys were with him in the hospice up until the time of his death. He told Wayman Steele the biggest regret in his life was letting his family go. He did not pass away alone. His companion who we got to know was there at the end. He had worship music playing 24/7.
I wish his story would encourage others. You have to be honest and accepted where you are in life. This is a journey and it is one foot in front of the other.
Laura Fouts
I too appreciated Harold.. if that is the right word. He was a super guy. I always tried to keep in touch with him at least once a year by phone, the last time probably within 6 months of his death. Harold had a lot to offer this world and life. His funeral was indeed a celebration of his life, but I have to admit I had problems with the whole concept of a “gay Christian funeral.” My jury is out on that matter. I am glad that God is the one deciding these issues and not us.
Funerals are for the living. Heard his mom had a lot to do with the arrangements.
We all sins so…
I sure hope there will be gays in heaven. Otherwise, the standards might be to much for most of us to get in.
p.s. Last I checked the only requirement was “believe”.
One of the important things each of us have been given back, as a result of no longer being under the “rule” of the various Church hierarchical leaders we once were ruled by, is the joy of “questioning” things, and not “having” to have all the answers right now.
By its very nature, the traditional Church must be “afraid” of those who question, and afraid of allowing themselves to question, because they have set themselves up as those who “must” have “all” the answers for every doctrine and every perplexing question of culture, morals, and biblical interpretation.
Such a burden, is none other than the burden of pride and the desire to build an empire; supported with the assumption that if we don’t know all the answers our subjects will have less confidence in our leadership, and might take their money and service somewhere else.
There is NOTHING wrong with not knowing all the answers to all the questions. Leaders in the body of Christ have placed an unnecessary weight upon their shoulders, so they could appear as “all knowing” and command a faithful following. It is such a joy to be able to stand, or sit, before the people, and say “You know what…I don’t know this or that.” I don’t know if gays will be in heaven. I don’t know if Senior Pastors, who have developed slavish followers of their rules, regulations, and standards, will be in heaven. I don’t know if Pedophiles will be in heaven. But, I also don’t know they won’t. I don’t have to know. I just have to love each of these people groups.
Where the bible fails to fill in all the holes…and there are many places it does so…I am free to say “I don’t know.” It is for freedom He has set us free, and one of the greatest freedoms is the freedom of not having to know everything that honesty would admit to not knowing.
I have more unanswered questions today, than at any other time in my life as a leader in the body of Christ. My leadership is no longer buttressed by “Just ask me…I know all the answers to all the difficult questions…I have to because I’m your leader, and you won’t respect me, and pay me, and bow down to me, if I don’t.”
If my leadership is in anyway tied to being able to cerebrally satisfy all of somebodies scriptural questions, then my leadership is build on shifting sands that will never stand the test of storms.
We are free friends. WE ARE FREE TO THINK AGAIN, TO QUESTION AGAIN, TO NOT KNOW AGAIN, and to feel ok about that. Once again we can seek the face of our God for answers to our perplexing questions and not lose it when He doesn’t answer us immediately.
So what do we do in the face of not knowing whether homosexuals will be in heaven? WE LOVE THEM!!! Yes, we embrace them, we become their friends, and we treat them like viable human beings, who have feelings, who need the warmth of understanding and compassion. I didn’t say we turn ourselves into homosexuals. I said we love them. God will judge what needs judging. I can agree with God that homosexual acts of sexual gratification are sinful, but I can, at the very same moment, love those who commit such acts. I don’t have know whether I’m loving someone who will one day spend eternity in hell, and thus I’ve wasted my time on them. There is no such thing as wasting love.
Now here’s one last brain teaser, of “not knowing,” that will shock many of you. Did you know there is a huge debate, amongst very bible believing scholars, such as Karl Barth, AT Robertston, William Barclay, George MacDonald, Origen, and many others, who just aren’t sure that Hell is what the Dark Ages Church teachings have led us to believe about it? That it may not be endless. That Jesus’ grace may even extend to the other side of the grave, and have a way to set free the prisoners of sin from their sin. Before anyone freaks that Tom is a Universal Reconciliationist let me say I’m not…BUT there are some legitimate questions about the concepts of hell we have been fed by the Institutional Church theologians for centuries.
Soooo, before we consign all homosexuals to an endless hell, we just might want to revisit the doctrine of an endless hell and see if we really feel as confident to be as dogmatic as we have been told to be, regarding its endlessness.
It has left me “not knowing for sure,” and being ok with that. I’m no longer in either camp on that issue. I won’t champion either side of it. I believe there is ample reason to believe that there was much God could have given us in scripture, to make this issue much clearer, and in the absence of that “much more” we might be well to be a little bit less “sure” we know exactly how things will turn out. What I will champion is the awesome love and grace of an awesome God, who in the end will almost surely blow our minds with Who He is, and the provision of the cross of Christ.
I will relate to the “lost” as though they may be lost for eternity, in terms of reaching out to them with His marvelous love, but I will stop short of condemning anyone to a Christless eternity, just because some self assured theologians have created doctrinal positions on somewhat inconclusive passages and word meanings. The subject is worthy of study, but loving the lost with compassion is a far better means of delivering their souls from a Christless eternity…if such a Christless eternity should even exist…than attempting to shame, condemn, and scare people into receiving the finished work of Jesus.
Questions…many questions…none will endure forever as all will be answered eventually, but love endures forever. Let us love.
End of sermon on Questions…LOL…
Tom
I believe Jesus said: “go, and sin no more” , some people need to read the scripture better, and not pick it apart to find the verses they like, and dis-gaurd the ones they don’t. Another thing most people don’t understand is that a sin, is a sin, whether you are a liar, or a thief, or a homosexual, ect. We are all sinners, and we have all fallen short of the glory of God, the turning point is when we say we are serious enough about loving Jesus ask him into our heart, and turn from our wicked ways!
If all you do is just “believe” I think you might as well just say once saved always saved, so I can go do whatever I want and have no consequences, because I am already forgiven, so what does it matter if I still live in sin and not strive to get out of it? God is the ultimate Judge, and all we have to go by is his word, and his still small voice to live the right way, but if we are tuning him out by doing what we want, and not what he want’s we will keep trying to justify our sin, and if you are doing that you are living a lie! Jesus loves us and want’s the best for us, all I am saying is we should do our part, by following him and using his life, and what he did as somthing to strive for!
Comment ID #14749 Will Be Quoted Here]
I know I’m in minority on this one. But I just want to state that I don’t think homosexuality is a sin.
[Comment ID #14801 Will Be Quoted Here]
What is the scriptural justification?
[Comment ID #14801 Will Be Quoted Here]
Look up romans 1:26-27, 1 cor 6:9, and 1 tm 1:10 and get back to me.
I find my argument works best if I ask you to justify why homosexuality is a sin. And then I explain why all those verses don’t apply anymore.
I guess the most compelling scriptures I’ve read condemning homosexuality were in the Old Testament. And since Christians follow very few Old Testament Scriptures, I’m not persuaded by those verses.
And the best New Testament Scripture is Romans 1:26. “For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.”
Yet, in the past Paul’s teachings have been used to justify slavery and the complete subordination of woman. And I feel Christians are falling into that trap again with homosexuals.
A lot of Christians are mistaken to believe that the Old Testament is not applicable to modern day Christians. If that was the case why does the Bible have both Old and New Testaments? The reason is that the God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament and He doesn’t change his mind. Jesus quotes the Old Testament numerous times. If the Old Testament was no longer necessary, why did Jesus use it to preach His message? What it boils down to is what is sin in the Old Testament is sin in the New Testament.
How can you say those verses do’nt apply anymore? You must be a follower of Carlton Person’s twisted teachings, of “inclusion”. You are reading the Bible with your head, and not your heart, and taking what you want from it, and leaving out what you don’t want. Live how you want, don’t do anthing to change for the better, there’s no standards in life, no right and wrong, ect.. Do you think for one second that adultry is not a sin (as in the ten commandments), oh wait that’s in the old testement, so it does’nt apply right? Homosexuality adultry is a sin, just like hederosexual adultry is, and don’t even say anything about homosexual marrige.
Very well said, Lucy…..
Just for discussions sake… Why would any homosexual want to be a Christian?
Dueteronomy 14:8 says it’s a sin to eat Pork.
BACK AWAY FROM THE BACON, Lucy!
Catalyst, you really are showing your true, pathetic colors by that remark, get a life.
I support Gay Marriage.
It’s actually only a matter of time. This is a generational issue, and most of Generation X and Generation Y support gay marriage. Give it 20 years.
Before anyone freaks that Tom is a Universal Reconciliationist
I’m still freaking that Tom thinks the church is a harlot! LOL.
Catalyst,
I Colossians 2:16 “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a new moon celebration, or a sabbath day.”
Bring on the bacon!
[Comment ID #14819 Will Be Quoted Here]
To try and justify the lifestyle that they are living, and to make themself’s feel better about living in sin. That’s my guess, I mean it’s like any other sinner in the church trying to justify stealing, or murdering, or any other sin for that matter, as long as they get that warm and fuzzy feeling on sunday they will be ok for the rest of the week.
[Comment ID #14824 Will Be Quoted Here]
And there goes your “God doesn’t change/Sin is alway Sin” argument.
[Comment ID #14826 Will Be Quoted Here]
Good point. All you need to do is find a verse in the New Testament that has Jesus/Matthew/Mark/Luke/John/Paul saying homosexuality is a-okay and we’ll all agree on it. I’ll wait.
Naw, you’re free to believe whatever you want. I don’t care. I’m just saying, the Bible isn’t clear on this issue, and I don’t think homosexuality is a sin.
[Comment ID #14829 Will Be Quoted Here] That was a nice back-pedaling job, bravo! The point is, love the sinner, hate the sin, and do you think Jesus would approve of such a vile thing?
As a serious question for the people that believe homosexuals can enter in a Christian marriage, how would a pastor approach a wedding ceremony? Usually it’s Gen 2:24 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife and they will become one flesh.”
If the Bible is unclear on the subject, then surely we can use it to create a homosexual marriage ceremony. What verses can be used to express this union?
Judgie Poo,
Can you show me one person who has gone and sinned no more? Is that the qualification to get into heaven? Sin no more?
I can try and try and you can pray and pray, but at the end of the day we are still sinners…thankfully, sinners saved by grace. So why do our sins not disqualify us from heaven, but homosexual sins do?
Not to point out any flaws you may have, but with all the judging you do against homosexuals you might want to consider changing your name.
As far as “once saved always saved” goes: what do you do with John 10:27-28 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.?
Yet you have already condemned them to hell.
How are you possibly going to love them when they are already burning in your mind?
God judges us on our heart as well as our actions. Part of asking for forgiveness is repentance. Do you believe that people that are truly repentant go and repeat the same sin over and over again? Go forth and sin no more doesn’t necessarily mean be a perfect person for the rest of your life, or else, it just means stop doing what is causing you to sin.
Catalyst: I’m with you as I stated in my earlier post that I also do not believe it is a sin.
KK
judge not:
you are wrong on so many levels with this statement that i don’t even know where to start. –karli
lucygirl,
I get where you are going with this and to an extent we agree, but the problem is that we all have sins that we struggle with on a daily basis. Gossip, Lying, Coveting, Pride, Anger, Malice… but we dismiss these things because we can’t beat them. Don’t fool yourself Lucy, you are as much a sinner as they are (as am I).
The point is this. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US NEEDS CHRIST without his work on the cross all is lost. No honest person can say they have stopped sinning. We need Jesus. We all need Jesus.
[Comment ID #14835 Will Be Quoted Here]
I am not judging homosexuals, if you would pay attention to the whole comment, I said a sin is a sin!! Homosexuality just happend to be one of them. Also the whole go and sin no more thing means, is that you make a concious effort to change the things that are against the word of God, just like murder, cheating, adultary, and yes homosexuality!
Sin itself dis-qualifies us from heaven that’s were the cross comes in, and if our heart is not where it needs to be than God will judge everyone according to there works,including myself! I understand that God hates sin, and if we continue to live in it, and don’t turn from it we are living in a blissfull everthings ok world, witch is a lie from you know where. Gimmie a break I am not judging anyone, I am stating what God’s word says, and if you have a problem with that than talk to him about it.
P.S. I will not change my name, thanks.
Judgie Poo,
Again, can you show me one person who has gone and sinned no more? Is that the qualification to get into heaven? Sin no more?
Before we all devolve into personhood slams, and everybody gets “P…’d” off with everyone else, I’d love to hear some good sound thinking on the following passage of Scripture:
1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Quit trying to be a smarta*! no one is “qualified” to go to heaven it is the grace of God and what Jesus did on the cross. It is a heart change, like your motives, or your intentions. I know that we are all sinners, but if our heart is’nt changed than we are “spinning our wheels” as a christian and we will never get ahead in our spiritual wlk.
Hey Tom – serious question from me for a change … do you view the Kingdom as something that is inhereted now, or when we die? Since Jesus said that the kingdom comes in our hearing and that the kingdom is within us, it suggests that it is ours NOW. So, perhaps what that scripture is really saying is, you can’t live by the flesh / lusts / carnal nature now and ALSO have the kingdom – to have / inheret the kingdom, you have to crucify your fleshly desires.
Anyway, just curious if you viewed that as a NOW or future (after death / judgment) verse?
‘Scrupe
[Comment ID #14849 Will Be Quoted Here]
I believe that this scripture is very cut and dry, and it tells it like it is, we all are sinners, and our sins are washed away when we accept christ, and we have a new start. It is just like a person that had a drinking problem, and went though treatment, do you think that the first place he is going to go after treatment, is the bar, granted he might make mistakes, but if he is serious enough to make a change he will resist the temptation and do the best he can, but we as christians have an advantage, we can rely on God to help us when we are weak.
So then you do believe there will be Homosexuals in heaven.
Is he talking about “single act practice,” or “multiple act practice?”
Is he saying anyone who commits these sins once, or anyone who regularly commits them?
Is he saying homosexuality is any worse than any of the others?
Is there anyone among us who has not been sexually immoral since becoming a believer? Maybe. How about putting something ahead of God, I.e. idolatry? Maybe. How about stealing something? Could that include goofing off on the job, blogging when we’re supposed to be working, and thus stealing salary…oops…just kidding! How about greed? Maybe. How about drinking more than the legal limit, on ocassion? Maybe. How about REVILING. Ouch, saying something really unkind about somebody else. I’m sure that one could be hung over any of us at times. And swindling..I.e. charging more than something was really worth?
If we’ve done some of these things does it mean we’ve been cut out of the Kingdom? At what point does being cut out of the Kingdom take place, if it is more than just one act that does it?
In other words, there are many facets to this issue, and I could throw out many more.
Before we are all too sure which way this issue will land with God, at least we might recognize some of the complexities of it.
[Comment ID #14845 Will Be Quoted Here]
That is a bad argument RP. “We can’t help but sin so don’t worry about it.”
Homosexuals are the only group of people that enter a church and demand the church changes for them. They are the only people that wants to rewrite God’s laws to suit them. If an adulterer comes to ask for forgiveness, and is repentant, we tell them to stop nailing the secretary and go home to his wife and children. If a thief asks for forgiveness, we tell them to stop stealing and get a job. That goes for all sins, including my own, for I am a sinner as well.
Homosexuals don’t repent their sin, they pride themselves in it. Just because you’re willing to turn a blind eye to it doesn’t mean God does.
RP, is Ted Haggard a homosexual in your opinion?
If you don’t know the answer to that then you shouldn’t be discussing this issue.
How many gays do you know?
Scrupe,
That is an excellent question, and of course I do have some thoughts on it, but of course…that doesn’t necessarily mean they are right. I’m still a learner.
I really think it is both. I believe the Kingdom is within us, developing in the spiritual realm all around us, and will take it fullest and clearest expression when Jesus returns.
The harder question for me to settle, is which of these three dimensions is Paul referring to? As a good apocalyptic Jew that he is, I’m sure he is thinking of the third element of it, but is not at all referring to the first two?
I “suspect” that what Paul is trying to say more than anything, is that anyone who settles in his mind that he can live in what he knows to be sin, I.e. practice it however and whenever he desires, is fooling himself if he thinks he is currently or in the future going to have any involvement in God’s kingdom.
Do I still sin in areas? Of course! Do I even repeat certain sins more often than seem reasonable or in line with solid commitment to discipleship? Yes! But, do I look at areas of sin in my life and tell God, “Well God, here’s how it is…I can’t seem to overcome this area so You’re just going to have to live with it!” Nope, NEVER! Not because I’m afraid He’d strike me dead, but because it just doesn’t fit with His kingdom being in me and me being in His kingdom. My spirit just “knows” this doesn’t square with kingdom life with God.
So, I deal with my sin, through repentance and confession, accountability, etc., because I want to be a kingdom man, both now and forever.
Those who don’t want this should really wrestle with Paul’s statements here.
[Comment ID #14859 Will Be Quoted Here]
Don’t patronize me, people that have accepted christ and turned there back on homsexuality will be in heaven, just like people that turn thier back on other sins in thier life. That means if you are activley participating in sin with no desire to change, wether you call yourself a christian, or not, according to the bible you will not go to heaven, those are God’s word, not mine!
Wow…I’m loving this thread. Complexities for sure!
I grew up at BT, so my gut reaction has always been homosexuality is a clear-cut sin. But in recent years I’ve begun to understand a deeper meaning of the power of Christ’s grace for all of us.
I can say for where I’m at right now that I agree with lucygirl that I “feel” like if you are repentant of your sin then you put an emphasis on NOT doing it again…thus making an active homosexual lifestyle contradictory to the nature of repentance.
But on the flip side of that coin….for a number of years I could have been described as a hot-blooded college man, with a cumpulsory for masturbatorial activities (used largely in part to remain a virgin ’til I was almost 30!).
And although my “spirit” was forever willing, my “flesh” seemed forever weak! And try as I might, it took me a long time to “master” (eh, eh) those desires. (I know some of you will argue that this isn’t sin either, but for MY spirit it was, and it helps me understand waging war against an enemy that appears unbeatable) (eh,eh!).
Ultimately, I don’t really have a point here, other than to say I am digging the discussions we are having on this blog lately! I like that for the most part we are keeping it friendly. I LOVE that we have a few new additions that come out of BT eldership, etc. and provide richer color on the discussions.
I’m “gleefully torn” as I read some of these deep topics, and I really like Tom’s idea that there’s freedom in not having to have all the answers! I don’t think we should stop looking…and discussing…and pursuing them. But we should breathe in the release of not having to have them!
Much love!
Judge not…
I don't think God said it quite like that, but I'll allow you to paraphrase.
Again, I can't help but think that we all actively participate in sin even though we don't want to, but you go ahead and cast that first stone…after all your hard work here you've earned it.
As regards Catylyst and Karli…
My only encouragement, as we address these issues, knowing they are in the background watching and interacting, is ask ourselves “Do we believe their souls deserve respectful treatment even if we disagree with them?”
Let’s use these two as microcosms of the broader culture we live in. As a Church we have done much to create an image in the minds of the homosexual community that we are callous, cruel, and gatekeepers to the fires of hell, ready to cast them in. All I’m saying is that whether we are talking to those sympathetic to the gay community, or those actively involvement in it, the manner we approach them is ultimately as important as the content we approach them with.
Look, no matter how you slice it, this is not a simple matter. We’re talking psychology, theology, culture, grammar, exegesis, and a host of other complex issues of doctrine. We can afford to be gracious here, even if in our graciousness this doesn’t mean we have to be in agreement with those who support or participate in homosexuality.
I strongly suspect any sexual activity between two people of the same sex is something God disapproves of, but I’m as interested in caring for the souls of those who believe this lifestyle is approved by God, as I am in declaring I think the practice is unhealthy, and sin.
We cannot allow ourselves to elevate the sinfulness of this issue to a place above any of the other issues Paul discusses in 1 Cor. 6. If we do we must at least be honest enough to admit that we do, not so much because we believe God does, but because emotionally it is just an upsetting practice to our thinking, and it makes us personally very uncomfortable.
I’m so glad Paul just lumped it in with all the other things he did. Can we not at least share his “leveling” attitude, even we can’t share agreement with those in the homosexual community?
I don’t mean to sound preachy here. I probably am, but I don’t want to be. I just feel intense love for this segment of our cuture. I’ve never witnessed, in my 54 years of life, any one group of people be so hammered in the name of God. We don’t do it to the revilers, the swindlers, the adulterers, etc., near like we do it to those in this community.
As soon as we recognize we aren’t defending God, near as much as we are defending our personal sense of discomfort, in that moment we just might be able to turn towards them and be witnesses of His love and grace to them.
In sojourning with the Lord by the leading of the Spirit, He has shown me some very unsettling things. Among them, the real homosexuality.
Have you ever noticed that of all the sins that upset religious churches, it’s homosexuality that most upsets them? The reason for that is, homosexuality is the mirror image of religion. And so the religious churches repulsion at homosexuality, is really a form of self-loathing.
In a nutshell, what God wants from us is intimate personal relationship with man and God – a 1:1 with us – and the result of that 1:1 between man and God is spiritual rebirth – spiritual procreation – a new creation is born. God enters us, and we enter Him in intimate personal spiritual relationship, and the result is a new life.
God patterned male/female relationship, marriage, and child birth after His desired intimate procreational relationship with man.
But man has, since Adam first tried to make a covering for himself, been trying to make their way to God by themselves. Man often turns to man for that which he should seek directly from God. Men exalt men to god like positions, revere them as intermediaries between men and God.
Man can not reach God through man because man is incapable of fathering spiritual rebirth in man. Only God can Father spiritual rebirth in us.
And so, intimate relationship with God (spiritually procreative) is to the religion of men (spiritually barren), what marriage between a man and woman (child bearing) is to homosexuality (barren).
Religion is the real homosexuality.
Those who have such great difficulty with physical homosexuality, really need to examine their religious spirit.
In the last 10 years, with the increase of religious ferver in this world, and especially the US, there seems to be a marked rise in homosexuality. I do not think it is a coincidence – for our sin surely has a physical manifestation.
Scripture does talk about bearing one anothers burdens, and Paul makes an interesting statement in Colossians 1:24 about suffering in his body for the sake of the church. Is it possible that homosexuals are bearing the sin burden of a church that is eager to embrace religion and tradition (the teachngs of men) rather than entering into intimate 1:1 relationship with the Father in Christ Jesus?
I have come to believe that God’s destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah has FAR MORE to do with a symbolic destruction of religion, which dares even defile heavenly beings, than the destruction had to do with the physical act of homosexuality. Religion is spiritual homosexuality.
Religionists would do well to put down their stones, and leave the homosexuals alone.
See also Revelation 22:11. If ever there was a scriptural basis for the new age saying “Live and let live”, it’s Revelation 22:11.
Jack
Thirty years ago, divorce was scandalous….twenty years ago, ‘shacking up’ with your girl/boy friend was called ‘living in sin’….ten years ago most homosexuals were still ‘in the closet’. Just because something is now socially acceptable doesn’t mean it has ceased to be sin.
Sin becomes ‘normal’ as society casts off moral restraints. God, however, doesn’t really care if you or I have redefined or decided that a particular behavior He has called ‘sin’, which He sent His Son to take our agonizing punishment for, is now ‘acceptable’, because ‘everyone else is doing it’. He is stilll planning an awful Day of Judgement. Anyone who stands before God still in his/her sins will be damned, and yes, it is still a fiery place of eternal torment. *shakes head*
Any time we hold on to our ‘darling sins’, no matter what they are, we are proving that we do not care about the incredible sacrifice God made on our behalf….If anyone has watched the Passion of the Christ and was not deeply moved to ponder the level of agony Jesus endured for you and I and the world to be free from both the consequences of sin, and the power of sin, is about as cold and hard–hearted as they come.
It reminds me of a story I heard one time;
An old man and his young son were fishing along a wide river in the jungle. The father implored the son to stay away from the edge of the bank, and warned earnestly of the deadly consequences if he should meet up with one of the many lurking crocodiles that frequented that area…
Sometime later, noticing his father was distracted preparing a meal for the two of them, the boy snuck off to explore the riverbank. He slipped on the wet mud, and tumbled into the water. To his horror, he was immediately attacked by a hungry crocodile. His screams of terror brought his panicked father running, and without hesitation, he dove in to save his precious son. After playing a deadly game of tug of war with the animal, he was able to make his way to shore with his frightened son clutched to his breast, relieved to have only lost a leg and not his child.
As he lay exhausted on the ground, bleeding and writhing in pain, the boy, after examining himself and finding no personal harm was done, got up an rather flippantly thanked his dad for saving him. Then, ignoring his dad’s cries, and knowing he could no longer ‘force’ him to obey, he sauntered back to the riverbank….
I have a question.
My friend was married when he got into a relationship with another woman. She got pregnent and he ended up leaving his wife and moving in with the girlfriend. Eventually they got married and had another kid. That was several years ago.
Now they take their kids to church every Sunday. In fact, He and is wife are very involved and seem to be very mature Christians, leading home groups etc..
My question: Are he or his (2nd) wife going to hell? Does he have to leave his current wife to repent (i.e. does he continue in his sin by remaining with her), or are they ok with God?
Just curious what your thoughts/opinions are.
In all of this (very interesting) conversation, I want to invite anyone struggling with unwanted same sex attractions to know there is hope and freedom.
As much as City Bible may have had (or continues to have) issues with Portland Fellowship, the truth of the matter is many men and women find the hope, in Christ, they are seeking through Portland Fellowship.
If you are unaware of this ministry I encourage you to check it out, http://www.portlandfellowship.com
Blessings,
Jason Thompson
Portland Fellowship Director
They won’t have to stand before me on that Day….so it doesn’t matter what I think….
I do remember that Jesus acknowledged the woman at the well had several husbands, and He then told her that true worshipers of God will worship in Spirit and in Truth….I would bet she knew exactly what He was talking about….
I do believe there will be those in heaven who struggled with same-sex attraction on earth, and I believe there will be many in hell, also. But I believe the ones in heaven will have this to say about their lives on earth: “I had this attraction and I never got over it. I hated it, and I hated that it never left me alone. I never asked for it, but, for whatever reason, I was plagued with it my whole life. But because of God’s grace I’m free from it now.”
Really, though, who makes it to heaven and who doesn’t isn’t ours to speculate, so it’s beside the point.
I know a lot of people who are plagued by unwanted same-sex attraction; they’re followers of Christ, actively involved in the church, love God and live happy, healthy, holy lives. But they’re tormented by unwanted same-sex attraction. One of my greatest friends from college deals with this and he has told me, “I don’t know if I’ll ever be free from this, but I’m determined to try… I believe God is able to free me from this and I believe that he wants to, but even if he doesn’t I’m still going to follow him.”
Lots of people have a predisposition to overeating. Lots of people have a problem with lying. Lots of people are compulsive gamblers. I don’t believe that having a predisposition to these behaviors is sin… I believe giving in to their control is sin. I believe the occasions when one stumbles and acts on them is sin.
BUT (there’s always a but)… homosexuality isn’t anything that’s beyond God’s ability to forgive. The problem we encounter in culture is we have people in the church who think it’s virtually an unpardonable sin, and we have advocates of this sin who don’t recognize it as sin and have waged war on those who do. Both are extremes and both are militant.
The answer? In my book, it is this: first, we need Christians–practitioners of kindness (Romans 2:4)– who genuinely love people unconditionally. I think many of us in the church have a way to go in terms of loving sinners as much as we hate their sin. Through that love, we are able to administer the healing power of Christ.
Second, I believe it’s important for those who struggle with same-sex attraction to understand that practicing homosexuality is sin, but that God is equally as able to deliver us from sin, as he is to forgive us for it.
Anyway, I’m not fond of belabored posts, so I’ll shut up now.
To my way of thinking, Hungry & John444, are probably two sides of the same coin.
Hungry says it hard and John444 says it soft.
In the end it would be nice if we could all come to agreement with God, with the effect that the lost of this world are encouraged towards the light, instead of inclined to reject the light just because the way we handle it makes it harder for them to see Jesus.
Joh 17:21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
I wonder what role the word “abomination” plays in all this? Everytime I hear some KJV-only Bible-thumper condemning homosexuals, they quote that “abomination” scripture, with Jimmy Swaggart fist-shaking emphasis on “abomination” …
Sin when looked up in the Greek is referred to as “missing the mark”. As an archer aims for the target and misses. When we come to Christ we are forgiven and cleansed of all sin and unrighteousness. I believe a true believer knows when they miss the mark then asks forgiveness from our heavenly Father and keeps moving forward. Even if it is 70 x 70 times a day. When you stop searching your own heart and disregards the still small voice of the Holy Spirit is were one becomes hardened in heart.
I believe our God is a God of pure love. They now have discovered 32 levels of dimensions, think about how many more levels God is. They have not found an end to our universe yet God is bigger then all the universes put together. In His infinite wisdom and love I believe he has allowed a variety and assortment of folks on this planets so we would learn how to love, be compassionate and forgiving.
At the same time we are born into a fallen world. It is not perfect and our parents were not perfect. We do not make perfect decisions. This is were the “our fellow believers” come into play. We need each other. We each have a measure of the Holy Spirit in us. We all have different gifts and insights. If allowed in a non judgmental setting we share our insights with love and also persuasions we benefit and can grow in Christ.
Love,
Laura Fouts
P.S. I hope some of you folks come out of the closet and state your names.
[Comment ID #14864 Will Be Quoted Here]
If you can’t give a straight (no pun intended) answer, you don’t belong in this discussion either.
Plus, as with the Ted Haggard example, I don’t know any gays, and neither do you. When you figure this point out you’ll realize both of us are wasting time arguing over nothing.
Eww! Homosexuals eat babies and drive hybrids. They’re so, like, evil.
Much talk has been made of coming out of the camp of religion (Hebrews 13:13-14) – and coming out of religion.
There was a time when I was inside the camp, that all my friends were church going Christians – but upon having my eyes opened and leaving the IC, I have very few local Christian friends. Instead, I find my friends are my neighbors who are a mix of non-believers but who nonetheless love me and my wife. Many of my friends are musicians – aging rock and rollers – recovering alcolics and drug users – they too love me.
What’s so strange about it is, several of my friends, being outcasts or the dregs of society, recognize that I am also an outcast, as a follower of Jesus rejected by religious people who follow any/everything BUT Christ. We have some interesting discussions about God, grace, living spiritually, that were never possible with religious people.
Outside the camp, I have also met other fellow outcasts: homosexuals. None of the stereo-typical flaming / parading type, just men and women trying to deal with the hand they’ve been dealt in a religious community that hates them. KK has had several high school students who are gay and they have been friends even after graduation. We make no speeches, no judgments – just love them, and trust the Holy Spirit to do the work that scripture says He will do in convicting the world of sin and dealing with each of us, discretely as Jesus did, individually.
Jesus said that He was sent to / for the sick and lost. Why then would it be a surprise to find ourselves among the sin sick as we follow Jesus?
BTW – according to the strict interpretation of scripture, I’m an adulterer. My 1st wife divorced me for another man, and I ultimately remarried. I’ve been assailed for remarrying while my 1st wife is still alive, and pointed out to the man that the OT scripture he was judging me by, prescribed stoning for the adulterous / fornicating wife, which if enforced would have made me a widower and eligible for remarriage. But because mercy was shown, I am an adulterer. That is a sobering thought – by showing mercy to my ex (not having her stoned), I became an adulterer. Gives new meaning to Jesus who shouldered sin on our behalf …
Since we have the example of Jesus shouldering sin on our behalf, why wouldn’t we follow his example and similarly bear the sin burden of our homosexual brothers and neighbors?
After I got the boot from the IC, I must say that there were a few homosexual neighbors who treated me a LOT better than the IC dwellers did. If the measure of a man is the love they have for others, the few homosexuals I know stack up better than the IC dwellers do.
Is the horse dead yet ?
Catalyst[Comment ID #14801 Will Be Quoted Here]
Catalyst, I can truly understand why you would not carry any dogma from scriptures that sound vague or obsolete. I too am going out on a limb when I say that I believe the Christian life if more subjective than we Traditional Christians would like to believe. I try hard to read from the same bible that Job had.
Given the audience I understand if you don’t want to, but would you mind sharing when you came to the conclusion that Homosexuality is not a sin, and 2 or 3 reasons why you believe it is not?
Hungry on the Harbor…that story about the crocodile was terrible! A normal child wouldn’t do that…the person you heard that story from must have made it up. Children naturally respond to fear & feel threatened if their parent is threatened. Children are super intelligent, and would not go back to a source of an attack. They learn from natural consequences. As a Mother, that story disturbs me on many levels. –Karli
Lance,
Pretty sure Job didn’t have a Bible…
[Comment ID #14872 Will Be Quoted Here]
Wow!!! Im not sure if I should laugh or feel uncomfortable………….
Hate to break it to ya but religion is not the new “gay”!!!
Oh, by the way, remind me not to “sojourn”………………. Its apparent that sojourning is the new goofy!!!! jk
I think I kind of already did, but with 73 comments and counting, I can understand why you might have skimmed it.
This is my personal decision, and having grown up in the church and read all the scripture about homosexuality I don’t really expect others to believe it.
But basically, I think that scriptures condeming homosexuality (Romans 1:26 and 1 Corinthians 6:9) are for that time period. I don’t think Paul understood homosexuality in modern terms. In the same way Paul didn’t understand that men and women are equal or that slavery is evil.
In the past, Christians have used Paul’s words to subjugate a certain class of people (most notably, women and black people). And I feel that Christians are doing this again with the homosexuals.
[Comment ID #14931 Will Be Quoted Here]
I have three beautiful blessings myself, and have had many opportunities through the years to ‘save’ them from various ‘dangers’. Not one time have they ever left my arms to go back….:o)
Karli, I’m glad that story disturbed you, when I first heard it, I felt a horrible indignation and conviction rise up in my heart.
It isn’t a real story, but an allegorical suggestion that when we view sin lightly, we are being as cold, unthankful and selfish as that boy when he flippantly disregarded his father’s painful sacrifice for his disobedience.
We are telling God, “Gee thanks, Pa, for the bloody offering Jesus gave, but I think I will go exploring more and see just how close to the edge of sin I can get without falling in” Then we plod off, trampling through the blood He shed, leaving red footprints on the broad path to destruction. We go nurse on our darling sins to our own eternal demise.
Sin in our lives needs to be ‘exceedingly sinful’–as putrid to us as a rotted corpse would burn our nostrils, and we must repent!!!
Not make excuses for, not justify, not ‘nibble’, not blame others, not call them ‘addicitons’ or ‘mistakes’ or ‘weaknesses’; Why would Jesus suffer, bleed and die for just a little ‘oopsie?’
Cowgirl said:
Correct. Religion is the original gay.
Metaphor is wasted on literalists. I’ll bet your favorite song is Black and White sung by the Spinners?
Over my not so young life I’ve noticed a strange phenomenon…It has to do with those who bible thump, and harshly denounce certain issues of SIN and later we find they had been nursing some deep dark secret and were apparently using the bible thumping approach to mask their self flagellation because it had a certain self cathartic element to it.
Why do you think this happens?
[Comment ID #14937 Will Be Quoted Here]
Exactly; it was a rhetorical questions.
Job didn’t have a bible, nor did Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, et al.
So how did they follow and commune with God without a Bible? Why did God give Israel the Law? And why do we put the bible on such a throne that concluding ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ requires our absolute slicing and dicing?
Which leads me to my question for Catalyst, who answered for me earlier (thankyou). I’m pretty clear on what the Bible says about homosexuality, and I understand how you’ve come to interpret it’s meaning. I think I’m interested (Bible aside now) in how you came to the conclusion personally -outside of Christianity-, that Gay was OK?
Thanks for the input.
-lance
I’ve just met a lot of gay people, and I tend to think a lot of them were born gay. It’s not a lifestyle they chose because they wanted to sin. It’s something genetic. It’s who they are.
…that said, this is a relatively new belief for me. So it’s not something I’m adamant about. And I’m constantly going back and forth on the issue.
Lucy, can you have Gay sex and not be Gay? Ted had gay sex so Ted is gay, he is also married so he probably had straight sex, that makes him Bi.
I happen to know plenty of gay people, many of whom love Christ. You should check out our link to my friend Sister Paula’s website. She is a wonderful transgendered women who also happens to be a preacher. We get together about once a week for dinner and it is always a fascinating time.
One quick question:
Does anyone here NOT want to see gay people in heaven?
It just seems that there are a few people who might take exception to it and as Christians I would hope that our goal would be to see EVERYONE in heaven…regardless of their sexual preference.
Search your heart…
I’m worried about Locutus …
[Comment ID #14961 Will Be Quoted Here]
Haaa!!!! Your a trip!!!
So gay is not really gay; rather, it has always been a metaphor for religion. So religion is the true gay???………….cmon I think we have someone trying to allegorize!!! Keep trying there sport!
Again, hate to break it to ya but the Bible can never mean what it never meant- extending the text like that reflects on your own innate bias. Sodom is not a metaphor of the destruction of religion; it is a story apart of the metanarrative that rehearses Gods judgment on paganism……
Thus, the need for an exegetic discipline so that we dont read our own prejudice into the narrative material……….
I want to see all of my loved ones in Heaven just as the Lord does, but Jesus already said that won’t happen–said something about a ‘narrow gate’ thing…..sort of implied that not everyone will make it because they don’t want to ‘go against the flow’ of that broad, ‘easy’ path where ‘everyone else does it’….:o)
There is a big black line between “Jesus loves you just the way you are, don’t bother to grow or change into His image–He just wants to bless your life and make you happy” and “I beseech you bretheren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service, and do not be conformed to the world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind”
I have no ‘darling sin’ in my life. I have nothing in my life today that I am ashamed of or would try to hide if my Lord Jesus were following me throughout the day, watching my behaviour, listening to my words, reading my thoughts. (Hey, wait a minute…He is! )
Does that mean my behaviour is always perfect?
Of course not!
Of course not!
Of course not!
( I had to make that perfectly clear for those ready to pounce with their, “*GASP* How DARE you!! You proud, arrogant puke!!! Thinking you’re better than everyone else!!! WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?? *BLEAGH*!!!!
)
It’s not that I think I have “arrived” or attained perfection (Did ya hear that???
) , but this one thing I do, I forget that which is behind me (unless I need to apologize to someone I have hurt or offended 
) and press on to the upward call of Christ Jesus my Lord…I take every step to make no provision for my flesh to satisfy it’s lust, discipline my body, bring it into subjection, lest when I preach to others (right now, that is my three children) I myself should be disqualified.
I often tell my children, “If Mommy isn’t a Christian at home, she is not a Christian, period.” It doesn’t matter what people at church think, people in the community, extended family members, etc. We can wear some pretty pious and convincing masks to those who are only around for a few hours a week.
But if I am mean and nasty, selfish and lazy at home, or engaging in some unholy practice that dishonors my Lord, I am a fraud, a hypocrite, a liar, and I have decieved myself, and provoked them to wrath with my “do as I say, not as I do”‘s. PLUS, I have made them cynical and disgusted with ‘impotent Christianity’, and I have been a stumbling block that will make it very difficult for them to find the way to their Heavenly Father….
Before responding to this, please make sure you have read each word carefully and understand the spirit…:o)
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RP, thanks for your answer. In my opinion, if Ted Haggard IS gay, repents his sin, and remains faithful to his wife he should be forgiven and his soul cleansed. He then is an example for all gays, even the so-called “biological” ones. If Haggard IS NOT gay, then it is possible for a straight person to have gay sex and not be gay. In this case, for some, having homosexual relations is a choice, not defined by birth. Again, a repentant Haggard is an example for gays in choosing God’s path, not the path of the flesh.
Either way, in the end, if Ted Haggard can rise up from the depths he’s fallen, he may lead more people into the Kingdom of Heaven than for all his time as a pastor. Only then will you see gays in heaven.
Catalyst said…
This seems to be a fundamental question many differ on in regards to homosexuality. Genetics or Choice? Like Catalyst I’m not sure I’m convinced where I stand at this point in my life.
But the topic of a sinful nature or the sins of the father passing to the next generation make me wonder sometimes what exactly is the full extent of stuff in our DNA?
Is this strong desire for same-sex relations nature or nurture; some embedded genetic makeup or some cultural sensitivity picked up almost unconciously? I don’t know. Just thinking outloud.
The most powerful display of God’s grace is that it empowers us to move beyond what we are and freely pursue to work towards what He is!
Years ago Charles Stanley in a message I heard on the radio said “Just like electricity… you don’t put two sockets together and you don’t put two plugs together” Just because you try doesn’t justify to make it right.
Cowgirl – Your circumlocutory prose begs us to point out that “you’re” is the proper contraction for “you are”.
Additionally there continues to be no need for you fluff up your comments (more than you normally do) by copying someone else’s entire comment.
Henri – could we vote on taking the “Quote this comment” link off the template?
No offense, that’s the lamest thing I’ve ever heard. Would you really say that to talk someone out of being gay?
Karli & Catalyst,
While I do agree with the concept that the church is overwhelmingly Homophobic. I have to say up front that I do not understand the behavior or the attractions. I have to ask the question, is saying that the act of having sex with a same sex partner homophobic.
I do agree that the church is more tollerant of adultery than Homosexuality. Does that mean that adultery is not a sin. No it means that the church or christians or whatever have got off on judgeing this foriegn group that they don’t understand. But, Adultery they let pass because their buddy they went to college with commited it. Yet, they are viewed the same by God.
Now I don’t know what that means to us in the now and how we treat each other or let into our clubs we call churches. I know that we aren’t to judge but let God judge. And that God’s grace is abounding. I know that to equate being gay as just being a pervert is simplfying something that isn’t that easy. I just don’t know what to think on my own but when you say somethng is or isn’t a sin you have to refference the Bible and say what it says.
Don’t you??
Hummmmm………Does it really beg us. (Nice attempt at personification) Also, you forgot to add “Ya”; as a matter of fact, this is inflectional slang. And so is “your”…………….
I am so proud of you though, you know a big word!!!! Good for you!!
Wow! Less then 300 syllables. Keep up the good work! A+
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Me too.
I could handle repentant ex-gays in heaven.
It seems that you want me to find a Bible verse that says “Thou shalt be gay.” But the Bible is more complicated than that. And that verse doesn’t exist.
The Bible doesn’t say much about driving. And if you consider the number of people who die every year behind the wheel of an automobile. You could probably make a compelling argument that driving is a sin. (The Amish certainly do this.) And I could look at you and demand that you find me a Bible verse that says its acceptable to drive. But I don’t. Because that verse doesn’t exist. And I don’t want to take the Bus.
If you believe homosexuality is a sin. That’s fine. I completely understand how you got to that position. I just think you’re wrong; that’s all.
Lucygirl, I’m having trouble following you. Is he gay? Is he not gay? Who cares? Why isn’t the focus here on the fact that he cheated on his wife? Like I said before, if the church focused more on teaching & encouraging healthy lifestyle & treatment of other people more than they did on figuring out the technicalities on what you have to do to make it into Heaven, the church wouldn’t come off as a judgmental group of people. To me, the lying & the cheating of Ted Haggard is of much greater importance to himself, his church, and his wife seem like the core issues to a healthy spiritual life–not his sexual orientation.
Just throwing this out there, but remember that Scripture was written by MAN. It might have been inspired, but it still came through the filter of an earthly being. I have a feeling that most of us on this board have not had a homosexual experience, so who are we to project our biases and judgments? I’d be pretty pissed off if I were a lesbian and someone was trying to tell me how I was supposed to feel, live, love…AND trying to figure out whether or not I was going to be in Heaven. Give me a break.
My opinion is that God isn’t anywhere near the spirit of judgment of others or their biases–the spirit of God is so much more than that. These silly issues we get ourselves & our spiritual lives hung up on is not what the spirit of God is about. If the greatest commandment is to love our neighbor…what the hell is the church thinking? It’s become a legalistic, unaccepting environment to anyone that is different from how the CHURCH interprets a CHRISTIAN is supposed to look like & act like. Why do you think I don’t go to church anymore? Thank God I wasn’t a lesbian, because I’d probably be in therapy right now. I was just a simple girl trying to find out who she was in life, and unfortunately, I was never good enough. Life is hard enough on your self-esteem without subjecting yourself to an environment where you are constantly made to feel less-than. I didn’t feel it was right at the time for me to be someone I wasn’t to please a group of people that called themselves a church. I don’t think a homosexual person should have to do this either.
–Karli
The Bible does say that homosexuality is a sin and that women should not preach in church, as well as suggest that slavery is ok. I just think that if we are going to throw out 2 of the 3 then we should just throw out all 3.
If you look at the history of the american christian church you will see that it is constantly adapting to stay viable. The gay issue is no different. In twenty years not only will there be gay faith harvest giving members at City Bible but also gay elders. I would like to be the first to nominate ****** ******* as our first gay elder (by gay I mean openly gay).
editor's note:
Go Team, get sued on your own blog, please leave personal attacks like that out (not that there's anything wrong with that).
-RP
Living Life: No one cares what you can handle. You don’t even know there is a Heaven, except for a faith-based belief of what another human being wrote down many years ago. And if there is no Heaven, you have wasted a lot of time trying to figure out what you could handle if there were one. If there is a Heaven, and all you have to do is say a magic prayer and “believe,” then there will be a wide variety of people up there with all different backgrounds. And what does it matter who’s up there anyway? If you believe what you read in the Bible, it says we’ll have new bodies. I’m sorry, but your comment comes off pretty effing self-righteous to me.
–Karli
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No, I think you make it more complicated……Nice try
Thanks Karli for the uplifting words. You need to stop taking life so seriously!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry, I didn’t think it was an attack. I don’t view being gay as a negative thing.
Catalyst,
I do not want a scripture that says Homosexuality is right and good. I want some kind of explanation for the scriptures that make refference that it is wrong.
The Bible doesn’t say a thing about driving. It does say alot about murder, hate, love, judgement, spending, childeren etc… So I can draw some kind of conclussion about those subjects.
I think the water shed point in all this comes down to wether you think Homosexuality is a choice or a predetermined genetic trait. I don’t know that answere.
Living Life…Well, I’m not taking life so seriously now as I sip on my holiday rum & egg nog…
I’m sorry I got angry–I could have been way nicer. Having said that, I’m not going to apologize for taking the issue seriously…it’s an important one!
–Karli
What is important karli is to remember that we are all childeren of God and know matter are issue God Loves us.
And that…
The proper spirit to drink with Egg nog is good old kentucky bourbon. cum on Rum …. Realley.
‘Know matter’ sorry I guess I have had to many Egg noggs & bourbon ‘no matter’
I thnk you’re right. And I think this is where reasonable people can differ.
Concerning homosexuality and other sexual sins, I do wish the Father would afford us a look from His perspective, that we might better understand His concerns and desires for us. Perhaps if we could see the “big picture” from His perspective, as it applies to His main purpose for all of this, we might love each other a little more, be a little more tolerant of each others foibles?
We’re told “God is Spirit” and we know that originally, He created us with purpose, presumably to have fellowship with us and to be our daddy, to love and care for us. He set us in the garden of His provision and told us to enjoy it all. He came and went between heaven and earth, walking and talking with Adam and Eve. They were innocent, healthy, happy, having everything the needed. As long as they remained faithful to their relationship with the Father, they were blessed to live with Him and see Him face to face.
But Adam and Eve betrayed their relationship with the Father as they listened to the seductive words of another who was jealous for their affections and followed after him. They committed adultery against the Father to whom they were joined, and the Father who was pure and innocent in the matter, put Adam and Eve out of His household. Call it a ‘divorce’ of sorts on account of Adam and Eve’s betrayal of their union with the Father.
It could be said that the original sin was spiritual adultery. Once Adam and Eve had been put out of the Father’s household, their descendents began taking on other lovers in the spiritual sense: idols (of wood, stone and bronze) and false gods (sun, moon, stars, elements of nature). Adam and Eve’s spiritual adultery grew into spiritual fornication in their descendents. Eventually, as their descendents grew into communities, some men presumed to stand in the place of God and their communities worshipped them. Men worshipping men instead of God is spiritual homosexuality.
Of course, God says that He hates adultery, fornication, homosexuality, beastiality, etc., but since God is SPIRIT, doesn’t it seem likely that the bigger picture is of a God who is looking for us to return to faithful relationship with Him, and for us to repent of all our other spiritual lovers (idols, false gods, man worship (religion), etc.)?
We continually concern ourselves with the flesh – yet Jesus said “the flesh counts for nothing” (John 6:63), we know that the flesh will be ‘salted with fire’ (Mark 9:49), the flesh will be burned up on the day of the Lord (1 Cor. 3:13-15, 1 Cor. 5:5, etc.), no flesh will boast before the Father (1 Cor. 1:29), the flesh is to be crucified (Galatians 5:24), and despite our best efforts we are still wretched on account of our flesh (Romans 7:16-25).
It seems like every reference to the flesh in scripture concerns the need to crucify, destroy, overcome the flesh. But for what reason? So that the Spirit would prevail over the flesh!
This I thought was an interesting scripture from Paul:
I know that God’s standards are spiritual, but I have a corrupt nature, sold as a slave to sin. (Romans 7:14 GW)
Paul clearly delineates between spirit and flesh, and consistent with Jesus words in John 6:63 “my words are SPIRIT”, Paul makes clear that it is a SPIRITUAL standard God has set, by a SPIRITUAL Word of the Lord. Clearly, the only way we can meet God’s SPIRITUAL standard is SPIRITUALLY.
Paul’s words in Romans 7 seem to imply that while He can meet God’s spiritual standard spiritually, while endeavoring to reform his mind in accordance with God’s spiritual standard, Paul’s flesh STILL betrays him as his flesh is ‘obedient to the law of sin’.
So, I have to ask: since Paul clearly states that the flesh is a slave to the law of sin, and that God’s standard is SPIRITUAL accomplished SPIRITUALLY, why do we fault one another over the behavior of our flesh which is slave to sin, which we can not control?
I think God’s ultimate desire for us is expressed in the story of the prodigal son. All the Father wanted was for his son to come home. In coming home to his father, the son ceased his sins against the father – there was no graphic accounting of the sins of the flesh – just an apology for ever leaving the father who loved him.
If as Paul says our flesh is a slave to sin, and as Paul states we can’t help but sin, and our flesh is scheduled for destruction, why do we belabor the sins of the flesh? Shouldn’t our real concern be the healing of our spiritual relationship with the father? Confessing our spiritual adultery, spiritual fornication, spiritual homosexuality, spiritual idolatry, and returning to a faithful, monogamous spiritual relationship with our Father in heaven?
I don’t think the Father is concerned with the visible symptoms of spiritual sin in our flesh. He is concerned with spirit, and just wants us to come home, whereupon He will effect our healing and restoration.
To the extent that we have all betrayed God, we have ALL committed adultery in the spiritual sense. Do you worship money through the prosperity doctrine? How about cars and homes? You’ve committed fornication in the spiritual sense. Have you ever idolized a minister, etc.? You’ve committed homosexuality in the spiritual sense.
The Bible is a spiritual book. It’s commands are spiritual. Think spiritually, nurture the spirit. Leave the flesh issues to the cross.
Jack
Catalyst,
Thanks for your openness. I can certainly identify with questioning scripture when it seems to be unjust. After all, God must be just, and if homosexuals are born, and if homosexuality is a sin, then that concludes they are born into sin or born as sinners. This seems unjust and unfair.
Although I cannot conclude for myself why my gut tells me homosexuality is not what God intended (a sin) and why it is unhealthy for society (morally and socially), it does. Even though, I too have had friendships with those who have crossed that line.
This does raise a couple of questions in my mind and possibly others:
1. Does being born with a desire or -preference- make that desire or perference OK? It may suck, but does it substantiate that the desired behavior is or is not a sin?
2. Can the duality of being a good person (even a Christian) and maintaining a behavior (of any kind) substantiate that the behavior is or is not a sin?
Any thoughts…
Hi Jack (John444),
I think (correct me if I’m wrong) living by the ‘Spirit’ of the law, rather than the ‘Letter’ of the law is the essence of what you communicated; to focus on relationsihp with God (the inside man) rather than performance and behavior for God (the outside man). I know when I am struggling with sin, I try to tell myself to listen in my heart (to my Fathers voice), nuture our relationsihp and live for Him, accepting His unconditional grace while I struggle. That helps me a lot, and I use the same technique with friends I consol with.
That said, my 6 and 8 year old daughters need additional practical guidance. I don’t think God wants me to focus on just “nuturing the spirit” when they see two men hugging or kissing, and they start asking me questions (this has happened).
How would you suggest I approach them with teachings on the moral, spiritual and social aspects of the gay life style?
Does God make mistakes? “Oops, I made another gay one!”
Here’s an article that should explain the behavior of at least one of our bloggers.
Locutus,
That is funny, and interesting too.
Are you suggesting that a born human being is a perfect creation from God? ( I’m thinking of the many forms of birth defects that exists).
Or are you suggesting that a person born with defects or sinful desires would substantiate a mistake from God (and not man)?
This article would suggest there are theories that a pedophile is born with their disposition. How does that play in with genetics and sin?
I think that all this debate about Homosexualality and theology is interesting. I am struck though with the idea that Karli brought up in regards to how Homosexuals are treated by the church.
It turns my stomach at the piousness that the church shows towards Homosexuals. The church believes that it is a sin but should that matter in how we relate and treat people. The church stands up and says how a Gay lifestyle is wrong and is destroying the moral fabric of our society. Well isn’t there bigger and worse things that are destroying our society. I sort of wish PF would have went down to the court house steps a couple years ago and instead of railing against Gay Marraige and getting his TV time would have takein a very public stand against the Catholic churches abuse of childeren and child abuse in general. Did the community leaders stand up and rail against the church and it’s behavior. No, what it did was take shots at a group that is ailienated anyways.
We as the church, followers of Jesus, have no power over people and there behavior. We only have our actions and attitudes towards the people who perform them. Our inconsistancy towards differant bahviours is obvious to the lost. When what should be shining through is the consistancy of Christ’s love.
Truely do we think that allowing an institute as weak as government sponsored marraige to be available to people with gay lifestyles is going to weaken God and what he wants to be done on this earth. No, we don’t because we really don’t care about the institute of government sponsored marraige . If we did we would have stood up long ago when divorce, adultery, abuse and anything else that weakened it came up and became prevelant in our society and weakend that institute. We care about attempting to feel important and trying to be significant in society.
The Church has fallen from fishers of souls and focused on things eternal. To now we are that kid on ‘Welcome back Carter’ who always thought he had the answer for everthing and wanted to be called on for his insight and we have our eyes on the laws and nature of things here on earth.
That’s a tough one, Lance. I have 3 grown daughters and the issue never came up. Had I been asked back when they were the age of your girls, I’d probably have replied stupidly: “that’s a sin” and left it at that. In hind-sight, when they’re that young, you don’t know how they’ll turn out. When they reach puberty they might have homosexual desires, so whatever seed you sew now could have serious emotional consequences for them later. As in “I have feelings for other girls, but daddy says it’s a sin”. Realistically, we love our children regardless of sexual preference. Funny how staunchly religious parents in a traditional home have an attitude change about homosexuality when one of their children announces that they’re gay.
It seems like the loving and informed (mature) response to the children would be rooted in the Biblical understanding that we all suffer in one way or other because of the original sin / our fallen nature. The fall corrupted our flesh and manifests in innumerable ways. Sickness. Disease. Hatred. War. Murder. Perversion. Jealousy. Greed.
Don’t isolate / single out homosexuality, rather, point out that we all struggle with sin manifestations in one form or other, and that we are all looking forward to the day Jesus heals us. Might even help to point out some of the conditions common to children, like selfishness and jealousy, which are every bit the sin as homosexuality.
Maybe one of the other dad’s has a better idea.
Horshack?
Lance,
What would your response be when your daughters see to heterosexuals acting inappropriately in public? Go to any mall USA and you will see it everywhere.
Thank you – we are now Horshack.
Stam.
Sorry I didn’t clarify. There inquiry is about two men kissing, not about two people kissing in public.
So are you saying I should avoid the issue, or I should divert the topic from homosexuality to voyerism? If so you think that is being fair and honest to them?
Thanks John444,
I see wisdom in your approach. I also don’t want to be afraid to call it what it is. Research reveals evidence that alcoholism is a disease, carried through heredity. Should I not talk about the consequences of being drunk because one of my girls may end up with addictive alcoholic desires?
So the question comes back to “what is it?”. A sin? A birth defect? A consequence of sin? A consequence of the fallen nature? Normal? Healthy for society? (obviously lousy for procreation).
-Cheers
How about “not what God intended (or designed)” … I can’t imagine a babe of 6 or 8 trying to understand “sin”.
I was thinking about the woman caught in adultery and dragged out to test Jesus. There’s some real meat there to ponder … first, He clears the courtroom by challenging her accusers – as if to say “if you are without sin, go ahead, otherwise, don’t try to stand in MY place (as judge)” (or “get out of my face” if you like
). So her sin is NO ONE’S business but her’s and the Lord’s. Having cleared the room, He doesn’t accuse her of her fleshly sin even though He knows every detail of it, but still He tells her “go and sin no more”. If He doesn’t accuse her much less even mention her adultery, what sin is it He’s telling her not to commit anymore?
There’s this interesting picture that emerges from this scene – the woman – for whatever reason found herself RETURNED to (at the feet of) the one who MADE her. Up to that time, she had been living the life of a prodigal – she had taken the life the Lord gave her and lived like one who did not know the Lord. Suddenly face to face with Him, she found the mercy, love, forgiveness, even acceptance that only He can give. In saying “go and sin no more”, does He really mean “do not stray from me again” (aka, “abide in me”)?
Seems like a bit of a paradox to me. I mean, in our fleshly minds, it’s easy to look at that verse and assume Jesus meant “don’t sleep around any more”. But was He really speaking to her out of an understanding of the greatest commandment: to love God first and most, whereby everything else just naturally falls into place?
The prodigal son came home to the feet of his father voluntarily. The woman in adultery found herself at the feet of the Lord involuntarily. Both it seems, were restored, through forgiveness. It makes me wonder even more if the only concern the Lord has is that we come home.
If you don’t know whether Ted Haggard is a homosexual or not, you cannot simply defend all homosexuals for their behavior. You don’t know whether one is a true homosexual or simply a pervert. Are the girls of ‘Girls Gone Wild’ really lesbians, or just prostitutes working for money? The gay defenders would lump all together and absolve them for their actions.
Like the driving example, modern day homosexuality is a new invention. Even the term “homosexual” doesn’t show up until the 19th century. The homosexual by birth is only a recent trend. Sexuality has always been a personal choice, and still is, for the majority of people.
Gays are cause celebre for this generation. Like flag burning and fluoride in tap water the passion of the arguments will soon be over. People will continue to do whatever they want, Christians will stop acting self righteous and gays will stop acting as victims.
As loving and compassionate the Christians that defend gays are, their approach will never work. They want to open Heaven to more people by removing the restrictions on getting in. Simply wanting homosexuality to not be a sin is useless. Push for more pro-gay laws. Push for gay marriage if it makes you feel better. Just don’t expect God to apply affirmative action to Heaven.
No. Just because you have a desire or preference it doesn’t make it right. But it doesn’t necessarily make it wrong either.
Again, no. Good people can have sinful behaviors. In fact, I’d reckon to say that all people have sinful behaviors.
Lucygirl, I disagree with just about everything you wrote. But anyone who can include “Girls Gone Wild”, “Fluoride” and “Affirmative Action” in a single comment, is okay by me.
Lucy will you please explain this.
I get the feeling you think if gays start getting into heaven, some how you’ve been robbed because of all your hard work earning your way in.
Hmmmnnn…. would you mind telling me what the word Grace means to you?
Maybe I haven’t been clear in the past (and maybe you are directing your comments to someone else). Let me try to explain (I am going to use the word Gays to mean Homosexuals who believe in Jesus).
Gays sin. You sin.
Jesus died to save Gays while they were still sinners.
Jesus died to save You while you were still a sinner.
Gays believe in Jesus.
You Believe in Jesus.
Gays still sin. You still Sin.
If gays don’t get to heaven why do you?
Or more simply put. Show me the scriptures that say being gay is unforgivable…Christ’s work on the cross just can’t cover Gay Sex, but all other sins are in???
lucygirl:
if you’ve read my previous comments, you have to know already that i completely disagree with you.
“removing the restrictions” . . . i didn’t think there were restrictions. there are some scriptures regarding homosexuality in the bible, but not one of those says that only heteros get to go to heaven. i’ve known some pretty awful heterosexuals in my day, and some neighbors of mine are two of the nicest men i have ever met…in fact, they’ve reached out to me & invited me to their own loving church that has not only embraced them, but put them in the ministry. and i say good for them! they are committed to each other, love each other, and love God…and their congregation loves them….without restrictions.
anyway, lucygirl, it seems pretty simple to me from what i’ve read on what it takes to get to heaven…BELIEVE. heaven isn’t about restrictions. i thought it was quite the contrary. it’s obvious after reading your post and several others on here that there are a lot of christians out there that have forgotten how to love…their neighbor as themselves…and w/out restriction.
if there is one thing that every human being will respond to…it’s love–sincere and honest–not the fake kind of love where you reach out for awhile until you get what you want from them at the alter then ditch them until you realize one day you haven’t seen them for a few Sundays. people aren’t stupid–they can distinguish between people who care and those that care with restrictions a mile away.
karli
karli
Wow, this has become quite the lengthy and intense thread, understandably. I agree with those of you who are dismayed over how many Christians and the ultra-conservative politically active churches (think Measures 9 & 31 here in Oregon) discuss & treat homosexuals. I feel like I have to work extra hard to try to “un-do” the damage these folks do to homosexuals and to Christianity; not that I have that much influence, but I try where I can to present the truth, which is that we are all messed up, all born with a sinful nature, we cannot save ourselves, we cannot avoid enough wrong thoughts & behaviors and do enough good thoughts & behaviors to earn salvation, heaven or anything else; we need a savior and Jesus is the only one. He is the one who can save us from ourselves, from our struggles, from our pain, from present and eternal anguish over being separated from him by our lack of faith.
My main views on this subject:
Is homosexuality a sin (biblically)? Yes.
Is it the/a “unforgiveable sin?” No.
Is it a more evil sin, a worse sin, than other sin? No.
Can people be born with a proclivity toward homosexuality? Yes (just as they can be born with a predisposition for substance abuse, etc., so I don’t believe the proclivity is genetic/physical, but rather in the soul…in other words, we are all born sinners, in sin, and that can look differently for each of us).
Can homosexuals believe in Jesus, have saving faith in Jesus? Yes (sure, just as I can, with my sins of pride, vanity, jealousy, drunkenness, etc.) So, this means I expect to see homosexuals in heaven.
Should same-sex couples have civil liberties? Yes.
Is legislation the way to address the “homosexuals taking over the world?” No, no and no!!!
Do I know and care for some homosexuals? Yes, and I have for many years. Some are colleagues, some are relatives and some I’ve encountered through outreach/ministry projects. Actually, a man I once wanted to marry turned out to struggle with homosexuality. There aren’t many generalizations I can make about homosexuals based on those I know (although many were sexually abused as kids and otherwise had fairly screwed up childhoods, many were even raised in ultra-religious families); the same generalizations that apply to homosexuals apply to all of us, which are that we all are loved by God, all have joys and sorrows, all have certain sins that harrass us more than others, and all can go to the same place for forgiveness/salvation/healing–Jesus Christ.
Just my .04.
Even if you disagree with me catalyst, I appreciate you reading my comment, if only for the Girls Gone Wild.
The Gospels are replete with restrictions to Heaven. Jesus said, “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow is the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.” Also, “Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God.”
Heaven is VIP club and the bouncers don’t make exceptions for anyone. Believing in Jesus isn’t enough, even the demons believe in Jesus. You have to humble yourself and ask for forgiveness. Then and only then you get on the guest list.
Gays are not commiting an unforgivable sin. There is only one unforgivable sin which is committed by Damazio and Co. every Sunday: blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (Luke 12:8). However, gays are not repentant which is why they do not inherit the Kingdom according to Jesus.
Jesus even offered forgiveness to all of Sodom if they repented (Matt 11:23), “If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.”
Those of you that tell gays they don’t have to repent are not loving them, you’re betraying them.
Who says they don’t have to repent and who says they haven’t?
Again. You are not addressing the connection between you and the gays. You both sin. Period.
It’s clear that you don’t like homosexuals but now you are making generalizations about them to make yourself feel better.
Guess what Lucy, you can’t earn your way into heaven no matter how hard you try. You need God’s grace in your life ever day. IF it ever were to go away you would be bound for hell. It is the same more many homosexuals.
Are all homosexuals who claim to be christians going to heaven? No. Are all christians claiming to be saved going to heaven? No.
Stop being so judgemental and start loving. It isn’t that hard to love.
Hey Lucy,
Got a question about destruction.
Is the destruction that verse speaks of eternal hell / punishment, or, is it the destruction of flesh that is accomplished via the cross (or life, if you will)?
There’s that passage in 1 Cor. 5 where the man was faulted for boinking his father’s wife (his stepmom), and Paul talked about putting him out of the Church (people following the narrow path) to follow the lusts of his flesh (the wide path), whereupon satan would destroy his flesh and preserve his spirit on the day of the Lord? (see 1 Cor. 5:5).
The 1 Cor. 5 passage concerning “destruction” makes clear distinction between flesh and spirit, with the end goal of destroying (crucifying) the flesh to preserve the Spirit.
Why assume that “destruction” in the passage you quote means burning in hell for all eternity?
I imagine most gay people would tell you that this life can be hellish for them – enduring the hatred, persecution, slander, abuse, etc. Seems to me like they’re enduring the destruction of the flesh by virtue of life itself.
Seems to me like LucyGirl is not caught up in the fact that being gay is a sin that’s not forgivable, but yet that active homosexuals “live” in this “sin” in a willful, continual manner.
I sin. Yes, daily. But I do my best to try not to. I continually and willfully attempt NOT to sin, not because I think it gains me “points” with Jesus, but because it seems logical to be the core of my relationship with Him.
“IF”…and it’s a HUGE if….we agree it’s a sin (and that discussion still wages) it seems silly that people can’t differentiate that willfully and continually acting upon that sin makes it a deal breaker for Heaven. This doesn’t seem like a “works” discussion, just a “Hey Jesus, you don’t like this, but I don’t give a F…, I’m going to live this way anyways” kinda thing. AGAIN…assuming we get to a point where we agree it’s a sin.
Should we still love them, sin or no sin? Heck yea! I think we ALL agree on that. But I can see how many people don’t chose to “tolerate” a gay lifestyle if they see it as a regularly and willfully practiced sin lifestyle.
Question:
Is there a difference between a person who struggles with homosexual desires and tries to deny them and leans on Christ though failing now and again…
and a person who doesn’t try to deny those desires but embraces them and lives in them willfully?
To those that think it’s a sin….I’d say “yes”…a BIG difference.
Sorry…I’m playing a bit of devil’s advocate here, cause I think LucyGirl is taking it on the chin a bit. But I think the argument gets mirky here and there, and I think the “willful and continual” element is key.
Yes, no, other thoughts?
All I’ve done is reiterate what Jesus says you have to do to get to Heaven. The only one making judgement calls and generalizations are the gay defenders that have their lovely “my mom’s best friend’s college roommate’s second cousin is gay and really really nice so all gays must be really really nice” stories. That’s why I even brought up Ted Haggard.
Everyone is judged on a case by case basis regardless of crime. Is a soldier that kills for his country the same as a guy that kills a grandmother for beer money? I hope not, but both are still eligible for salvation regardless. What you want to do is change murder to not be a sin, thinking you can “love” them to Heaven that way. You can’t.
I am a sinner. I have kicked my dog out of anger, cut people off on the freeway, gossiped about friends behind their backs, and not remembered to tithe when appropriate (ironic). I have tried to stop myself from repeating these, and many many other mistakes and I believe myself forgiven for that. What I don’t do, is start a Animal Abuse Pride Parade, start chanting, “I’m Here, I Veer” when I get in the car, or start a slander blog (just kidding, I know it’s actually libel not slander).
I have repented so I am forgiven. Remember that the next time someone lets you in on the on-ramp.
.
No… what I want to do is BELIEVE that the power of Christ’s death on the cross can cover a multitude of sins… yes even murder. It’s that simple.
So Ted Haggard can go to heaven but Elton John is headed to straight to hell.
To be honest Lucy, I’m not entirely sure what I believe about “willing sinners” going to heaven, I do enjoy the debate though.
To me it comes down to being fully aware of my own faults and seeing that if Jesus can save me, despite how I act on a daily basis, why wouldn’t he save the homosexuals?
I honestly hope that he does. And when we get to heaven I hope there will be all kinds of people with all kinds of sinful pasts, thus seeing the true power of Christ’s sacrifice.
Sorry if I have been hard on you.
One other question.
I have a “straight” friend who absolutely loves Jesus with all her heart mind and soul. She got divorced a couple of years ago and now has found herself sleeping with her ex-husband again on occasion.
Is she going to heaven?
the way i see it, how we live our lives is a personal decision. it isn’t our business to determine where anyone is at spiritually or if they meet restrictions, conditions, requirements, mandates, whatever the church wants to call it. our commission is to love people period. it isn’t up to us to go any further than that. my goal in life is to accept people for who they are. i want people to be who they are. life’s too short to be someone you aren’t.
and all i can say is how would you feel if the role was reversed and heterosexuality was sinful & you were forced into homosexuality because that was what was deemed “rightful” and “non-sinful?” you would be miserable, because you would be going against your natural tendencies.
i can’t help but think of my toddler’s dr. seuss book, The Sneetches, a book with themes about racism and discrimination. it seems to me that the bible is too often used as a tool for discrimination by the christian world.
i have no desire to be a part of the church until there is a reversal to these harmful mindsets.
karli
John444, good comment. I believe Jesus was talking about the city itself in regards to destruction not in terms of loss of salvation. You remember that Abraham did not wish Sodom destroyed? Gen 19:32 “…What if only ten (righteous people) can be found there?” He (God) answered, “For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it.” What Jesus was angry about was that people had seen his miracles and still not repented. If the people in Sodom had seen his miracles and repented, God would have found the ten righteous people to save the city.
Grey Sheep understands what I am trying to say.
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Only for his music. He can be saved for his sexuality but not his music. That was the other unforgivable sin. It’s in the Bible somewhere.
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Nobody is too far gone to be saved. All they need is a repentant heart.
By “repentant,” do you mean they no longer do what they used to do? What if they stumble?
That was my point from the beginning (Ted Haggard). Nobody can force you to do anything you don’t want to, except paying taxes. Likewise, we cannot condemn or redeem a homosexual, they have to do it within themselves. So for all the “I hate homos, I love homos” talk is meaningless, which I wrote 100 posts ago.
I only ask for the clarification because many Christians think repentance is only substantiated if the person no longer stumbles on their issue. The truth is, usually whatever it was that ensnared them before repentance will continue to nag them after repentance. Repentance doesn’t necessarily mean that you are suddenly released from the bondage. Many times it’s a process that takes a long time, and the person will stumble and fall during that process. And sometimes the person is never truly free from the temptation. But that’s what grace is for. Grace is for the journey between repentance and perfection.
You should NEVER kick your dog… shame on you, Lucy!
lucygirl, we’re never going to agree because the basis of your argument is that it is a sin, and i believe it isn’t.
also, the talk about love & acceptance is not meaningless to me. maybe you should clarify that it is meaningless to you, but it isn’t meaningless for everyone…at least i hope not.
karli
Thanks Lucy.
Concerning our vision and understanding, whether it be our view of the Kingdom, our understanding of sin and hell, or the place of torment, I’m reminded of something Paul wrote:
We don’t yet see things clearly. We’re squinting in a fog, peering through a mist. But it won’t be long before the weather clears and the sun shines bright! We’ll see it all then, see it all as clearly as God sees us, knowing him directly just as he knows us! (1 Corinthians 13:12 MSG)
Isn’t it amazing – men who were thoroughly familiar with scripture followed the Lord for several years, and then were thrown into turmoil and doubt by His crucifixion. Two of them who were getting out of town after the crucifixion came upon a stranger who eplained the scriptures to them, so that they might finally understand God’s plan, and know who He was, but only AFTER God’s plan had been completed. Even so, they did not recognize Him until AFTER He opened their eyes.
What makes us think we understand the scriptures concerning sin, judgment, etc., any better than those 2 men did?
I don’t think any of us really have a clue how it’s all going to play out at judgment.
Thinking out loud again here….(forgive me…it’s fun and something I was never allowed to do growing up at BT!)
Will a Christian who has tried very hard to live a Godly life, who stumbles and sins just before getting hit by a bus end up in Heaven?
What about a terrible serial killer who just before getting the flip switched on his electric chair comes to a saving knowledge of Christ and asking for God’s forgiveness?
How is forgiveness achieved? By asking once? By asking every time you sin? (God forbid…I’d never be doing anything else but asking for forgiveness!) By a valiant effort towards pleasing the One who offers it? By obeying every “rule” in the scriptures? (and if so, who defines those rules?)
I don’t honestly know. I tend to think it’s the third one, but I don’t know.
I agree with Karli that it’s not our job to sit and monitor everyone, but I also think we need to have wisdom and a “right answer” for when someone comes to us with those tough questions. Seriously…if homosexuality is a sin, and making a willful choice to live a sinful lifestyle separates an actively gay person from God….then how much more love can I show them than to be ready to explain to them how I feel that their lifestyle is endangering them of a future outside of the precense of God. I’m not “judging” them…I’m speaking truth…and the truth can be a beeyatch some times.
Again, again, again…I’m not saying I can stand up in front of you all and prove to you that homosexuality is a sin. I was definitely raised to believe that way, but that doesn’t make it right.
And again, again, again…I want to put more emphasis on shining the spotlight on us learning how to understand that there are certain times for certain actions. If we see a gay person hurting, that’s not the time whop ‘em over the head with my bible. If a gay person sees the light of Christ in me and asks me what I think about their lifestyle, then it’s time to hit the Starbucks and have a deep, bi-directional (pun intended!) conversation.
For where I’m at…the world needs two things. More love…and more truth!
This whole topic is something that I’ve been struggling with understanding for myself lately. I also have been hammered with the “Christian” mindset towards homosexuality, but a close friend of mine just came out and suddenly for me actually being able to practice the love and grace of Christ and trying to shake my old mindset in regards to the gay lifestyle has been an absolute tug-of-war. I also have been challenged to firm up what it is I really believe and not just what I’ve been told over the years. The dialogue here has been immensely helpful from both extreme points of view and from those somewhere in the middle.
Grey Sheep…I think we used to hang out around the PBC campus.
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Did either of them remarry? If not, 1 Cor 7:11 actually tells divorced couples to reconcile, “But if she does (divorce), she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband.”
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Stumbling can lead to greater glory if you come back to Christ. The Parable of the Lost Sheep: If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. In the same way your Father in Heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost. Matt 18:12
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Fortunately, my dog is a faster forgiver than most people. The doggy treats help though.
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That’s what makes faith so difficult.
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You said it yourself when you said it was a personal decision. If a gay person does not accept Christ, he/she is dead regardless of sexuality anyway. If a gay person is Christian, then it is a personal relationship between him/her and Christ, and my acceptance is meaningless. That is what I meant when I said you can’t “love” someone into receiving salvation.
If a gay person decides to become a Christian, then he/she has to deal with the Bible. They can take a more liberal view, as you and catalyst do, or they can accept what it says. 1 Cor 6:9 clearly offers salvation to a homosexual: “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, your were sanctified, you were justitifed in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”
It is hard to imagine that homosexuality is not a sin when Paul says you are forgiven for it in Christ.
And even then, we could fill the world’s largest stadium with all gay Christians in the middle, and all the rest of the Christians cheering, clapping, holding up signs that say, “Gays Rock!”, call it Gay Eternity, and it still wouldn’t matter. Because Romans 9:15 says, “For he (God) says to Moses, “‘I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.’ It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.”
This site may be helpful to some, in thinking through Homosexuality:
Try that again…
http://www.narth.com/menus/born.html
lucygirl,
Do you believe that the Bible is the word of God?
Do you believe that the Bible is without fault?
Do you believe that the Bible has the same relevance today as it did when it was “put together” by the “holy men” of the time?
I hear your arguement. I am just curious to where you stand.
If I understand correctly, it appears some on this thread have made up their minds about the mortal filters of the 39 cannonical writers, and how those have tainted the purity of God’s message.
By the way, I do believe with those who suggest the Christian faith has turned more toward worshiping the Bible, which is really idolatry. However, I have to disagree with those who suggest the authenticity of Scripture has been somehow compromised through a human filter.
If it’s true that there’s a shadow of doubt cast upon the authenticity of Scripture as being the inerrant word of God, then I wonder how one should wade through the scriptures and determine which of them is accurate and which is not?
I believe in the infallability of the scriptures; I believe they are God-breathed and inerrant in their entirety. I do believe that certain interpretations of Scripture are up for debate, but only based upon the establishment that we have yet to see certain scriptures fulfilled. Certainly we only see half the picture from this vantage point of time and space (and even the half we do see can be like peering through mud) but I believe the scriptures are accurate.
I think God is able to surmount the original writers’ humanness to dispense his word. If there’s room for even a little bit of error, then the whole thing is probably for naught.
Bloggy – of course the interpretation of the Bible is influenced by institutional bias, etc. Take the extreme example of the JW’s and their “New World” translation. They have ported “Jehovah” from the OT and replaced occurrences of “God” in the NT with it … they have doctored John 1 from “and the word was God” to “and the word was a god” … etc. As I recall, places where it refers to the “Son of God” have been changed to “a son of God”, etc., as well. Of course that’s the JW bible, but goes to show that the translators can and do doctor scripture to favor the doctrines of their sect.
Some for example argue that the Holy Spirit keeps the translators honest and preserves the integrity of the logos word – that somehow that is a ministry of the Holy Spirit … but that is an example of where, if that IS the HS job, He failed, or if you prefer, humans succeeded in drastically changing scripture.
…
As for drastic changes in meaning, from mistranslation, the Lord gave me an insight into the intent / original meaning of 1 Corinthians 9:14.
14. Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel. (KJV)
14. In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel. (NIV)
Based on the Strong’s Literal Bible translation below, neither the KJV or NIV translations capture the real meaning. The apparent meaning, according to Strong’s, is “practice what you preach”
14. |3779| So |2532| also |3588| the |2962| Lord |1299| ordained |3588| those |3588| of the |2098| Good News |2605| announcing, |1537| of |3588| the |2098| Good News |2198| to live.
For example, if you preach ‘set the captives free’, then set them free; don’t tie them up with religion and doctrine. If you preach ‘share what you have with the poor’, then share with the poor. If you preach abstain from sexual immorality, do so!
Specifically, Strong’s says |2198| TO LIVE – is a VERB. Yet when it’s translated as ‘receive their LIVING from the gospel’, TO LIVE (a VERB) is made into a NOUN (A LIVING). That is an error in the translation – likely influenced by the ‘institutional church’ mentality of the translators who have buildings to pay for, and our cuture which thinks in terms of making “a living” as a job with a salary. Intrepreting the scripture in that way (“make a living from the gospel”) simply doesn’t fit the context of the whole of scripture. Jesus sent out the Apostles in Matthew 10 and Luke 10 with nothing more than the clothes on their backs, and sandals on their feet, and told them to expect nothing more than food and a place to sleep.
Concerning the gist of 1 Corinthians 9:14 as “practice what you preach†– the good news provides for serving all – sharing all – and so the one who goes out and announces the gospel needs to lead by example – by sharing what he has and always serving, and giving, where in turn, the people learn the way of the gospel and begin sharing and giving with the one who goes out announcing the gospel, thereby meeting his needs.
That’s how we see Jesus do it in scripture and how He instructs His disciples. He told the 12 or was it 72 (?) take nothing extra, find a place to stay, where the worker deserves his wages which was food. Paul reiterated the food payment in 1 Corinthians 9 – the entire context of 1 Cor. 9 is FOOD … then we have the example of Jesus who fed 5000 with the loaves and fishes – Jesus as HIGH PRIEST received His wage of food, but then, rather than keeping it for Himself, He turned around like the gospel teaches, and made Himself a servant / least of all by serving the people first – and the Father the blesses Jesus selfless giving and service by multiplying the 2 fish / 5 loaves to feed 5000, with many many leftovers!
That’s living (a VERB) the gospel – and I believe the heart/spirit of what Paul was saying in 1 Corinthians 9:14.
That one subtle error / mistranslation has been a cornerstone of extracting salaries for clergy from the children of God.
Bible translations MUST be read with discernment, with prayer, and accepted as truth ONLY if the Holy Spirit bears witness to it.
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I know I’m really late to the party here, but I was loathe to comment on a topic that is so polarized that it becomes hard to have a healthy discussion.
There is one thing I’d like to point out, and that is that some Christians imply through their argument that homosexuality is a sin and should not be tolerated, then our Salvation must also depend on our behavior after we are saved. Confusing the two makes homosexuality a “heaven or hell” issue, and it’s not.
Our belief and subsequent faith in Jesus Christ is what “saves” us and our behavior before and after that decision has nothing to do with whether or not our names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. If it were otherwise, then Christ died in vain because nobody could live up to the Law.
As far as judging homosexuals, I think Christians forget that they too are sinners in need of grace.
In respect to the question of DNA vs. Choice, I submit that while it seems to have practical relevance, it has little spiritual distinction. We are all “born into sin” and do things we know we shouldn’t do. That doesn’t make any of us better or worse in comparison to homosexuals.
Whether I have a DNA-induced predisposition to alchohol, sex, drugs, or some other compulsion, I am on the same footing as Paul the Apostle who freely admitted he was a “sinaholic”. We’re all in that same boat and judging one another for it is not Christ-like. It’s no accident that the very next passage tells us how Christ sees us in spite of our wretched state:
If Christ doesn’t condemn us, then who are we to condemn others?
The popular quote of 1 Corinthians 6:9 is not an excuse to send people who commit sin “X” to hell. Paul was scolding the Corinthians for their bad behavior towards one another and for judging one another for it. He was also dealing with an epidemic of all kinds of sins and they just happened to be really fond of the sexual ones. Paul lists them as examples of what Christ had saved them from and to encourage them to live a life of freedom from sin.
Now, to the point where some of us are undoubtedly are going to disagree. Is homosexuality a sin? There seems to be enough Scriptural evidence both in the OT laws and NT teachings that would indicate it is a sin. But the more poignant argument for me is that it seems to go against God’s design for marriage as a living metaphor for the kind of relationship He wants to have with us. Why would Jesus and the Apostles spend so much time reinforcing the concept of the Bridegroom and His Bride, the Church, if he didn’t intend for heterosexual union to be the ultimate example of intimacy?
Secret Reader….
I thought I already replied to you, but apparently I never clicked “submit.” So here I go again.
It is quite possible you know me. I did indeed attend PBC, although for only one year in the early 90′s. (although I was around for a couple years afterwards while I was getting my Business degree from a REAL university!)
Another hint would be that I was equally responsible for having many people on the “Edge” a few years after that time.
I also know Karli and some of these other bloggers here too, if that helps.
Yeah…I was referred to as “Hey you…Edge Girl” once at Gen Unleashed when I was watching your table. How is the family?
The family is fantastic.
I’m still not 100% I know who you are though. Did you once sleep on our couch? And are now married to another infamous (although not heard from in a LONG time) blogger here? Did you or do you live in the ‘Couv just behind the Home Depot/Costco area?
Yes, that’s me. And are you a stalker? How do you know where we live?
Nope…no stalker here. Just heard from ‘can’t remember who’ that you guys got a house around there. It’s not too far from where we live, so I always wondered if I’d bump into you guys around the hood?
I’m a tad surprised to find you on this blog though. Your hubby popped in for a little while there and had some great posts, but he disappeard and I never thought I’d see you here. (the Dark Side is strong, it’s pull is irresistable!)
)
Glad to see you here though. Coming from a similarly conservative background like you, I’ve found this site to be challenging, hilarious, and every once in a while, a bit theraputic! Hope you find it that way too.
Tell your hubby I say hi. Hope you guys are well.
Yeah…that whole thing came back to bite him in the rear. I’ve been around since the start, I just never post (well, almost never). It’s those damn Mortons and their irresistable charm! JK. Just interesting to read what other people think.
I’ll tell the man you said “hello”. Where are you guys going to church now?
No offense guys, but you two should write Catalyst and agree to exchange emails or something. I’m subscribed to this blog post and I feel like the awkward bystander in a personal conversation. heh
I was a bit suprised to find this and have read through a lot of the postings on here. First of all, I belive I remember Tom Sparks son and have actually wondered what ever became of him since after the 8th grade I left BT schooling. I went to BT christian school from kindergarten to 8th grade and even attended the thursday night meetings up until I was 15, but after one particular meeting with a youth pastor that drew the last straw in my tollerance for their manipulation and control of my life, I left and did not look back. I have been gay all of my life. I have always been an overly intelligent and inquisitive person. I learned what being gay meant when I was 10 by going to the public library and looking up any book I could find discussing the issue. I needed to know why I was different. I researched sex, relationships and religion surrounding homosexuality. I remember checking out 12 books and hiding them from my father so that I could figure out what was going on. I did have one instinct though when going to Bible Temple, and that was to hide myself from the people there. I learned early on that I could not trust people there. I saw the manipulations, the jockying for position even at a young age. I saw the politics and thought it was odd. You see, I also occasionally attended a Lutheren church with my grandparents. I felt more at home at the Lutheren church than I did with BT.
Now, attending BT christian school, I grew up with Ben Malmin. Ben was not an angel, far from it. Ben though had a certain charisma about him that made people want to be his friend, but one thing that always scared me was his father and his father’s position in the church. You see, me being gay, I doubt that I would have even been allowed any contact with his son, let alone allowed to remain in the school. this made things very lonely for me as well because I knew the curches position on gays and I was one of them. I was scared to let any of my classmates into my life and I suffered for it. I was depressed, alone, I felt betrayed by a church that preached love, but at the same time fostered hate and intollerance for anything different than what their “Management” deemed imorale. *forgive the spelling as I am trying to get this out fast.*
After I left the church because of their cult like rules, I did a lot of soul searching. I did a lot of questioning of my own belifes. I found that I still loved God and I still belived in God. Even to this day, I still “talk” to God and ask for help in doing what I need to do to follow Jesus example in how to treat your fellow man. I am still gay though. Which does not mean I am a slut or that my focus in life is sex. It just means that I love someone that is of the same gender. I think that many people get lost between love and sex. In my mind love comes first, no matter what your body tries to tell you. You have to ignore your body and actually find out if you love someone in mind and spirit. Sex should always be the last and least important thing when loving someone.
I will say this, that I have someone right nwo that I do love. It took me nearly 13 years to find him. It also took me 9 of those 13 years to get to know him before we decided that we wanted to be together. In this day and age where people get married after only knowing each other a few weeks…I’d say that I took my time.
As for BT…I learned about how to manipulate people with weaker minds. I learned that if you were different you should hide. I learned that you can’t always trust people in authority. I also learned that people drunk on their own power over other people are only out to do for themselves, and not others.
Tom, I am sure I knew your son, I belive he was in the 7th grade when I was in the 8th. I hope i’m thinking of the same person. He from what I remember was always a nice to me. I hope he is doing well.
As if I haven’t already said enough today…just one more comment…
To my dear gay friend, former student companion of my son, and former member of BT, I’M SO SORRY as a former leader of Bible Temple, for being a part of a religious system that communicated the utter rejection you felt at BT.
No words are adequate to describe the horror I feel as a leader in the body of Christ, for directly or even indirectly communicating things that are not in agreement with the love and mercy of Christ.
You needed His love, and someone to talk over your thoughts and concerns with, and all we left you with was a belief that God hated you. Well…He doesn’t hate you. Not then and not now.
May the immeasuable love of Jesus more and more become a reality to you. Oh my God…how we need His love!!!!
Tom,
My grandmother, from an early age has taught me that forgiveness is the measure of a person. All of us at some point in life wrong other people. I’ve wronged others and I hope that they too would forgive me. I cannot ever hold one person responsible for things such as this, because it is the responsiblity of the church as a whole to be forgiving, to be kind, to be there for the weak and poor, to love one another. I am glad though, that you are a true man and have spoken up and said ” I will take responsiblity.” That is the mark of a good man. Please do not dwell on the past though, just take lesson from it and shape the future. It is the future that needs tending to especially if we are to save others from a similar experiance in life. I forgive you not only because it is right to do so, but because I can see you are sincere and even though this is only text. I can feel the emotion behind the words and they have given me some peace in my life. I thank you very much for that.
To “Norm†and “Another BT product of the 80′sâ€, and perhaps others…
I have been approached privately, regarding my posts to each of you, that those posts may have mislead you, and left impressions others know I did not intend to leave, because they know my belief system. The concern is that the things I shared could have left an inaccurate perception of the New Testament teachings regarding the seriousness of sin and its eternal ramifications.
Because these issues are so important I would like to take a few moments to clarify the position I take, because your souls are so important, and because incorrect communications can lead to exposing the soul to unnecessary dangers.
First, let me say that it is not my intention to preach at you, or present myself as your judge. What I write this morning is born out of love for you, as well as a desire to bring clarity on the position I hold and the position I believe the bible takes, on the subject of sin.
Rather than reference homosexuality throughout this entry, I will only make a few comments regarding it, but will mainly focus on the issue of sin itself, since it is sin that is the primary issue, and not any one specific sin in question.
Let me return to a passage of scripture I posted in an earlier blog entry:
1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
In this passage Paul says several very important things:
1. The unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God.
This actually tells us two things. First, even though Jesus has died for all mankind’s sin, it is not a given that the benefits of His death will be applied to all mankind, because second, some of those whom He has died for will not inherit the kingdom of God.
This is critically important. Obviously the issue of homosexuality is mentioned in this passage, but, in contradiction to the way some here have handled this matter, we need to note that it is not in all CAPS as though it were the worst sin of all mentioned here. Sin is sin, and unless it has been cleansed by His blood, repented of, and turned away from, the one sinning any of these sins is in great peril – missing the kingdom of God.
I know some within the homosexual community believe Paul was addressing a culture that has long ago disappeared, and that if he were alive with us today he would qualify at least, if not remove, his reference to homosexuality. I don’t know this would be the case, so I won’t speak for him. There are others who believe Paul’s words only apply to those who “choose†to be a homosexual, and that many today believe this too would be wrong, but that because some are “born†homosexual in orientation Paul’s words do not apply to them. Once again, I don’t know Paul would say this, so I won’t speak for him. I only know he includes it here and in Romans chapter 1, in a way that clearly implies he sees no qualifications of culture or physiology. Once again, I’m not anybody’s judge on these matters. I only note what these passages say.
So, since Paul makes no qualification, and because the consequences to unrepented sin are so serious, the counsel I have given to every practicing homosexual I have counseled with, is two fold – 1) It appears to be sin, please repent of it, and learn to walk in the Spirit so as not to return to the practice of this sin. 2) Even if you find you never have any desires for the opposite sex, allow the Spirit to help you find joy as a single person, while honoring your commitment to righteousness.
I do not share this glibly, unawares of the agony this may cause for those who believe themselves to be homosexual. I know it will be extremely difficult. I believe Christ will help with that agony, but not always to the complete removal of the agony.
Returning to the Corinthians passage:
2. All of the sins of this passage need washing, sanctification, and justification from, in the name of Jesus Christ, and by the Spirit of God.
None need more washing, etc. None appear to be considered worse by Paul. All need the same things, but all NEED these things. I place my own personal sins, that needed these things prior to salvation, right along side all of those mentioned in this passage. Sin is sin, and all needs the same work of Christ applied to them.
3. I also note the “past tense†element, in Paul’s words.
Wash “edâ€, sanctifi “edâ€, justifi “edâ€. The clear implication is that for the person taking seriously these sins, they become something of their past. Does this mean if one ever sinned in any of these areas again he would automatically lose his salvation? Since salvation is not by works I would conclude the answer to that question is “no.†But, conversely, the clear implication of his words are that anyone “choosing†to continue to “practice†any of these sins, shows that he has not truly repented, seen these sins the way Jesus does, and is choosing to walk in a manner that embraces sin rather than forsakes it, and in all of the apostles theology this is evidence of an unsaved person; a person not born again, not washed, not sanctified, and not justified.
Because it is not my place to stand in Jesus’ place as judge, I don’t get into arguments over these matters. I love everyone…sinner and saint, but I must be honest with what I see here, and express as accurately as I know, the message of the New Testament.
4. Will not inherit the kingdom of God.
What does this mean? I’m not much of one to utilize the Jonathan Edwards approach to getting people to submit to Christ, I.e. the, hang a man over the fires of hell, approach. Somehow this does not seem to me to fit the apostles approach to the seriousness of unrepentant sin. Yet, they are quick to indicate the loss of the kingdom of Heaven is a very real consequence.
Does this mean if one does not inherit the kingdom of God he automatically inherits eternal damnation in Hell? There are three major theories on this:
1) Hell is an endless period of unimaginable torment, as a result of rejecting the work of Christ on a person’s behalf.
2) Hell is not endless, but it will stretch out for a great length of time, and ultimately end up in complete annihilation – I.e. no longer exist in any state of being anywhere for eternity.
3) Hell is not a proper term of the New Testament, to describe the endless place of abiding for those who have not received Christ’s work on their behalf in this life. They believe it is better to describe it as a place of temporal judgment, from which everyone will ultimately accept the correction of the Judge of the Universe, and finally accept the work of Christ on their behalf. In other words, all will receive endless second chances, though the agonies of judgment imply that it is not worth going through this, when salvation in this life would have delivered a person from such punishment and judgment.
Number one is the historically accepted position by Orthodox believers. Number two is held by a far lesser number of theologians. Number three is historically considered an heretical doctrine.
Which one is correct? I truly do not know. After hundreds of hours of study, all three have some merit to them. I have concluded God purposely left out some theological and biblical pieces that could have created a fully justifiable dogmatism. Because I see no biblical evidence of “any†kind of a 2nd chance process in heaven, I’m disinclined to believe this, but I will ultimately leave it up to the Lord.
What He did not leave out is the very clear – DO NOT LEAVE THIS LIFE UNSAVED message. Because missing out on knowing Jesus, and missing out on the kingdom of heaven is so serious, even if there is a 2nd chance, the process of judgment, punishment, confrontation, and missing the joys of the kingdom make it not worth it. And, if the punishment turns out to be endless, then such a state of being is beyond imagination horrible. Therefore, no matter what position one holds, making the decision settled in this life is the only thing that makes any sense at all. Hoping for another chance on the other side is incredibly unwise.
I only mentioned, in previous blogs, the theory, and seeming experience of Ian McCormack, and others, of there “possibly†being a 2nd chance in the presence of Christ on the other side, because it infuriates me to have bible believing Christians use the bible to bash gays, in a manner that is unbecoming to the message of Christ, and treats homosexuality as if it were the worst sin of all history. I do not think this is the manner we are to use to impart the Gospel. If, in using Ian’s story, or in any of my other comments, I left you or anyone else the impression that I believe homosexuality is not a sin that needs to be repented of, then I apologize, and I am rectifying that here. I do not correct this because I’m afraid of body of Christ reprisals, loss of ministry, or anything like this. I do this because I love and value your souls, and do not wish to say anything that could encourage you to continue in any sin for another moment, to say nothing of risking the kingdom of heaven for.
I do not know for certain how things will play out on the other side, but I do believe we must only think of there being one chance, and that one chance is in this life alone. I do believe homosexuality is a sin to be repented of, and an issue that a believer in Christ must learn to walk in the Spirit concerning, so as to overcome all manifestations of that sin, just like any other sin. I do not believe occasional failure equals loss of salvation, but I do believe it, as in any other sin that besets our lives, must be met with confession, repentance, and fresh commitment to walking in the Spirit again.
If this sounds demeaning or condescending then it is only because of my lack of ability to communicate in a manner that completely avoids that. It is not my intention to demean anyone. I wish only to clarify the position I hold, and to encourage all men and women everywhere to accept the work of Christ for their lives, turn away from every sin the New Testament calls sin, and learn to walk in the Spirit for full victory.
If I have still left things unclear here I invite questions, but I refuse to engage in hostile debate, as being unworthy of the love and discretion of Christ.
I do hope this clarification helps, and once again, I apologize for the length of this post, but I felt my prior lack of clarity necessitated it.
[Comment ID #14507 Will Be Quoted Here]
Tom, you and David are in good company with Jesus and the Apostles and all the saints who saw what the IC was and still is. I just wonder what they would do with the vast majority of emotionally crippled people who would come in through those doors if the Lord happened to steer them that way. How would they minister and bring healing to them. “Pay your tithes and Jesus will take care of it all.” Give me a break.
“Just like electricity… you don’t put two sockets together and you don’t put two plugs togetherâ€
No offense, that’s the lamest thing I’ve ever heard. Would you really say that to talk someone out of being gay?”
LOL! That lame joke reminds me of the time this guy defended abortion saying: “Hey it’s not a pizza until it comes out the oven.” Comparing babies and pizza….sad.
Now as for the homosexuals. God will judge and deal with them each individually the same as us. You tell them about God, the bible, salvation, pray with them, and keep it moving. We seriously need to be worrying about our own souls because alot of people think that have a golden stamp set for heaven and that are sadly mistakened.
Speaking of homosexuals, anyone else notice TED HAGGARD got run out of town on a RAIL as part of his SEVERANCE AGREEMENT?